Interviews with African Americans in Utah, Albert Elkins, Interview 1

Transcript (34 pages) of an interview by Leslie Kelen with Albert Elkins on June 7, 1983. From Interviews with African Americans in Utah

Mr. Elkins discusses his early life in Salt Lake City, employment, education, church affiliation, and racial prejudice in Utah.

4~k1~J ~ !~4~/lf,,~ JI.~ I : -~~-~/~~ ·~-~~~~. . ·~d:J~-~ ~_j~;~ ~~~~~ J!l~ E ~ ,~~~~ -~~ v~~ : ~7u-z~~ i ·~~~~~ :Fi ~ ~~~~r-"" ( I 1-3 7 ., -~-S;/5-1~ Jj-_5-C,.-,i·2~~ b'~-/4'/~' I ,__, .J ~3 ~~7 2-,. ~, ..) 15 /'/-20 I -~~~~~ 2"-31 If Z5 -2.b j.2.-33 -z OCR-A Scan Albert Elkins 6-7-83 L This is quite an audience {chuckles}. o.K. Why don't we start with your full name and your date of birth. AE My name is Albert Elkins. And I was born January 28, 1913. L 0-K· Could you tell me where you were born. The name of your parents? AE I was born right here. In Salt Lake City, Utah- My mother was Mr. and Mrs. George Elkins. L Parents first name andyour mother's maiden name? AE My mother's name was Cecilia Freeman. And my Dad's name is George Elkins $ L Where in Salt Lake did you grow up? J AE 39th South and 3rd East. L Could you give me a little bit of a description of the area? What was it like when you were growing up? AE Well, we had a two acre piece of ground out there. A nice house on it. My Dad, he worked at the smelters for 25 years and 6 months. And as I grew up, I started to help him with-- just with the work we were doing. We used to cut a lot of hay and plow gardens for half of the people in the valley. And we done that for years until I became 18 and then I left and got married and left home. So- other than that, it wasn't a bad place out there. We got along pretty good with the Mormons. And of r'course, the Mormons are like any people. If you treat them right~ they;ll try to treat you right. As far as having any real trouble with them, no. I never had any. Before I left, been back. And that's been 20 years- Now, . I came Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-2 back here from California and went to work for United Airlines. And I stayed out there .til I retired. And working in a place like that, you come in contact with all people from all races and education and etc. But, as long as you were a person and could handle yourself, like myself and Harold Williams, we had no trouble at all- L Who's Harold Williams? AE He lives up on Evergreen. You missed hon on there. He lives on Evergreen~ the first house when you make the turn; go down the lane. The first houseon the south side. L Has he worked with you out at the airport? AE Yes, he retired also. L The area around 39th South. Was that primarily residential area? Was there some farming going on? AE No, it was more or less residential. There was no farm practically, to speak of. A few vacant fields. And there was a big greenhouse, name of Sorenon run it. We used to supply all the dirt and fertilizer for it, for years. Which consisted of running anywhere from 50-100 tons of dirt and manure, which they changed every year to plant their flowers. And after, of course, when I left, some of the old timers, they were starting to die off. And my Dad, he slowed down alot in that work. And after awhile, he didn't do too much of it . And after my mother died, he stayed around for awhile--oh, only about 2 years. I guess. And then he went back to Kansas City, where he was from. L Your Dad did. AE Ahuh. Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-3 L How many children were there in your family? AE Well, there were 8 living and 2 dead. There were ten of us. L How did the two dief AE Well, one was still born. The other one died 2 or 3 weeks later after he was born. that's of course what was it. But I had others died. I had a brother and 2 sisters now that died of just natural deaths of course. And then my mother and father--they died. L Where in line of the kids are you, among the elder or yougnest? AE I'm the fourth one. And there was--fifth one. This is Bill and Della and ~ief and Dana Yeah-- I guess I was the 5th one and there's three under me. L would you describe to me what your parents looked like? AE Ah, my mother was a very good lady. Of course, my Dad was half Indian. He was a big tall man, 210 pounds most of the time. And he was well liked by i these good Mormons around here. L How come. AE I don'tknow. Just the way he carried ~mself, I guess. We kids came along and we were about the same way. Oh, you had your normal fights~ you're going tohave that among anybody or wherever you're at. And once we learned to fight good, well, it was just an every-day routine. You had your fun, you played. And you just went on ram there. L And you had your fights. AE Oh, yeah, we always had to fight- L What kind of fights do you remember having? Albert Elkin 6-7-83 s1-4 AE Here? Well, see, there wasn't that many blacks here at that time and well, I never was around too many black people at all. I just stayed out here with these people in the neighborhood where! was at. Did everything but marry one of them {laughs} So that's where I stopped. This neighbor­hood wasn't bad. Went over to Granite High School and Lincoln School. Then I -- After I left, I left a couple of times. But after my wife died, I came back. And I met this lady here. She was born and raised here also. Yeah. We knew each other when we was kids. Of course, she could throw rocks at me so fast, I kept on running. But after about 25 years apart, we both settled down. And then we married. Had two kids. She had a little girl and I had that one. Since then, we've been going just like we were. All the way through. Yeah- Soon we'll have out 25th anniversary w L What didyou know about your father's and mother's back­ground , growing up? What's the kind of stuff they told you? AE Well, my father. His mother was a full blooded indian and his father was ablack man. L Do you know the tribe? AE Cherokee? Yeah , Cherokee Indian. And, of course, I didn't meet him. Of course. But he used to tell us about him alot. With some I remember and some I don't. And my mother, though, she was born inWellsville, Utah. Which is north of here. L That's your grandmother? AE No, my mother. L Your mother was born in Wellsville? Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-5 AE Yeah. her people were the name of Freemans. L Yeah, I've heard the name. AE Yeah, Dan Freeman. L Is that her father? AE Yeah. L Did you get to know him? AE No, I never saw them. Both her parents were gone before I came along. I think my older sister knew them. I think Della knew her, the woman, yeah. L What's the kind of things that they told you about their own lives, that you remember. AE Well, my Dad's life wasjust-- I just -- pretty rough deal in his way, see, because he had no parents to carry him along. So he tied up with some people by the name of Watsons. Out there 1n Kansas. I guess, down around Missouri- And they went on one of these land drives. Opened up land. Free government land. L You mean homesteading? AF Ahuh. But he was with those people, some people by the name of Watsons, and I think he lived with them for quite a while. Until he was about 16 or 17. And after that, he went into the Spanish American War. Or he was drafted. No, I guess he enlisted. And when he came out, he got some kind of lung trouble. Sothey toldhim to go to Arizona somewhere for his health. Well, he came through here and he got a job at the smelters. So he stayed. L Which smelter was that? Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1.6 AE Oh, the Old Murray Smelters. At - -down here, a few miles. He stayed t here and in the meantime h~ met my mother and they got ma rried. And they both just stayed right here. L Did you know how they met? Did he ever tell you? AE HaY How in the hell did he meet. Well, he had to have a ro om . And I think the Freemans at that time were living down in some part of Murray, l ower part of Murray. And he went there to get a room. Some one toldhim that they had a room for rent so he went there. And in the meantime, like all young girls, they were peeking an d lpeering. And I guess i t started right from there {chucklesO. So, I don't know how long they went together be,ore they got married. But t hat's where he met her, right there in Murray. And they both stayed right here in Utah, all thelr lives. Until they both died. L What did your mother tell you about her past? AE Not a heck of a lot. No more than her Dad was a blacksmith and --what else he done, I don't know. At least, I've forgotten. Take some of the dder ones, to get more of that than me. Because my sister and Bill, my brother, he--he knows more about it- Or remembers more about it. For some reason. L 8111 Elkins, your broth~r? AE Yt:!ah. L r~ he ~he une ~hav'S ~ick? AE Well, he do es n't feel --well, he's not exactly sick. He's just gett i ng up in age. Now, that's where you should have went and he'll just talk- L I can talk to him, too. Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-7 AE Well, I'd refer you over there. because his wife also wasn't exactly born here, but she knows more about Salt LAke than all the people in Salt Lake. And you would get quite a story out of those two. L What's his wife's name? AE Corrine. L Let me ask you-- How did the name Freeman come to your mother1 Did she tell you about that, the name? AE Well, that name, now, whether he~ people was brought out here with some white family or not, I don't know, to tell you the truth. I never did hear them say, as I recall. No, I don't know what the heck that was about or how the name Freeman got involved. But going back that far, most of, well, alot of the black people was carrying some white person's name, ash, ah, in the slave deal. Although I don't think he was ever a slave. That! know of. Now, of course my Dad's people weren't because he was an Indian- He wasn't inovlved in either. But that's where you'd get a lot of that information from Bill or Corrine. They like to talk- Corrine could tell you a hell of a lot about the whole mess-that's his wife. Because she came here when she was about 12 or 13 years old, somewhere, and she's been here ever since. L The area that you grew up in, 39th South, what kind of families were around there? What kind of people were around there working? AE Oh, just poorer class. Middle class whites. That's all down through there- The Sorensons, they were pretty well fixed. Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-8 As a matter of fact, he wasnicely fixed. And then there's another person on the corner there, name of Poster. He ran a big, oh, produce outfit. L Vegetables? AE Ahuh. And, of course, then we had others all down around us in the block- None of them were dirt poor. To tell you the truth, they were all just middle class people. Made a fair living. Some of them worked in the smelter there with my Dad. L But about how many people do you guess were working out there in the smelter at that time? AE Oh, 2 or 3 thousand, I guess. L 2 or 3 thousand? AE Yeah. It's--it was a big old place. It just closed down. Well, I' guess it' sheen closed down, what, I guess 20 years or more. Yeah, yeah. That's about all there was here--smelters and railroads. L What do you remember about the kind of work the men did in the smelter? What kind of work was~? AE Well, this smelter here, I didn't work at. I worked~ L AE a smelter in Bluffs, . But this was a smelter. I was working in a refinery. But here, they smelted the gold and silverout of the ore. They'd melt -- they'd get the stuff raw, right? Yeah, it would come 1n, just raw material, and it would be cooked and melted and separated- And go into different bars bythe tonage. And shipped to refineries. Albert Elkins 6-7 - 83 s1-9 L How would this stuff come in? AE Oh, it came to us in Omaha, in ten-ton blocks of lead. L How would it be coming in down there, do you know? AE Well, at that time, railroads brought all fue ore in, yeah. L Wagons? Would they be delivering in wagons? AE I don't think so, no. L Everything by railroad? AE Yeah. It was all railroad because there wasn't that many wagons in andout of here. They had quite a way to bring it. But, ah, of course, it came to us in Omaha by rail, of course. L What did it look like though, 1 the working places? Did you ever go in there when you were a kid? AE Well, all smelters look alike. You've got a hell of a lot of heat around you. It's like where I was, we had 16 open placed kettles on the floor which would hold 60 tons of boiling lead at a time. And, of course, there was space so you could work around them and in between them without any trouble. And as they would get up to a certain temperature, then you'd cool it down and skim the gold and silver out of the lead. L How would you do that? AE Well, after it comes to a boil, and you started letting it cool off and as it cools off, the leand and gold would come to the top of the-- I mean, the gold and copper would come to the top and the silver. And it would leave the lead because the lead was the heaviest. Albert Elkins 6-7 - 83 s1-10 and then after we got all that off, it would be put into another kettle and you'd putt different stuff in it to deparate the other three minerals~ which would be gold and silver and copper. So, it's quite a process on down theline. At the end, we'd have nothing but solid gold. And I ron't know, of course, all of that goes into a bla s t furnace, that gold and silver, and it's gooked again to separate them and as it comes off fast, and cools fast, that's when they separate the gold from the silver. L They go through a similar process here? AE To tell you the truth, at this smelter, it had to be close to the same thing. It had to go into a blast furnace to melt the ore. L Yeah, they didn't melt the ore--- AE They had to melt the ore and tap it and it'd come out like a flowing we l l into other kettles or pots. L What did it look like, the ore coming out? What kind of-- AE Ju s t red. Just a blood red stream of fire, is all. L And it would be coming into what? AE Into a big kettle on the floor, down below the blast furnace. And it would go in there. And . They'd either cool it. They'd have to cool it with others things. And --But mostly, lead. Cause the lead has a tendency to pick up everything. And once they got it out of this smelters here, there'd be nothing but a big ten ton block of lead full of other minerals with it. And once, when they send it to different refineries, then we'd start separating one mineral from the other. Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-11 L So it would go from here in a block to a refinery? AE Ahuh. Yeah. L Run the process by me just one more time. See. The stuff would come in to. let's say this smelter, here. AE Yeah it wouldbe just like dirt. L It would be just like dirt? AE Yeah. L Like rock. Then t wouldbe put into what? AE It'd be put into a blast furnace . And it would melt it. It would bring everything to a boil. And when it cooked, they knew how long, of course, and once it's cooked then we'd tap the furnace. L What's tapping? AE Well, there's a hole. The furnace is solid steel and brick, of course. And thenthere'd be a hole. Two of them. And they'd be stuffed with clay and when it's ready, you take the bar and ram it and ram it until it broke loose. And out would come your metal. And we'd catch that into a flume. L A what? AE Well, a trough. And the rough would take it down to one of the kettles, where it was going to go to. L And what would rappen to it in the kettle. AE In the kettle, it would be dippedout by a crane with big bales. And put into individual smaller pots so it can be handled. And once it was emptied. Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-12 L AE L AE L AE And what would happen in the sma l ler pots. Sit therein the pots until it got cold . Just sit ther e ? Just sit there. Until i t got cold . It wasn't skimmed or any t hing? That wouldhappen later. Not then . They didn't do any skimming there to speak of. They had to just t ake it out of those pot s when they were rea dy and make it into bigger blocks because most blocks were all ten-tons. And send it to wherever it was going. To different refineries. L Did your father, when he was working there, have to work special clothing? What did he look like when he left for work? AE No. Justoveralls, safety shoes and goggles of course , when he got to work- He had to have--everyone had to wear goggles on any of those types of jobs. But. I don't know. Just - special clothing? AllI ever seen him wear was overall s and a s hirt. Now, sometimes, he'd put on coveralls and different types of boots and things when he was working in the flue duct to clean those flues out. But other than that, he just wore ordinary clothes. But,I neverwas around that smelter too much- No mor e than sometime take him to work 1or pick him up every onFe in a while. But as far as working there, I didn ' t ever work in the Murray Smelters. L How long was ns work days, do you know? AE 8 hours. L How many days? A E H a Y 7 rl A \1 s ri ht P P k • Y e a h , t h e v w e r e n ' t 1 i k e t h e v a r e n o 1.tr • Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-13 {he laughs} They wasn't all union either. There wasn't any money in it either. Three ,i dollars a day. So. So. you just worked this every day, sometimes you'd take off. But he never took off very much. In those days, man, when you took off, there was 50 guys out at the gate waiting to come in, looking for a job. So most of those people, when they got on those jobs, they just stayed on. L How did his health take that kindof work? AE His health took it pretty good. He died at 94- L He died at 94. AE {guffaws} So , hell, it didn't hurt him that much. No. No, it's dirty--any--that kind of work is dirty. Yeah. By the time you got dust flying around or you're working around anything hot enough to melt iron, so it'd run like water, you know you're not on a picnic. And that's the way it was where I was working. Butother than that, as far as-- I guess it wasn't any dirtier than a lot of jobs. You should try one of those one time. L I probably should- AE Now, everything's so modern, it's nothing like it was in those days. Because now you have so many cranes and things to lift and move things around for you. Wherein ~ose days, most of it was done by manpower. L Like what's the kinds of things you're thinking of? AE Well, anythingis heavy. Now, I mean, it's just picked up by some kind of hoist or crane and moved from place to place, wherever you want it. But you take 50 years ago, all that stuff was done by half a dozen men or so, picking Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-14 it up by--with bars or whatever to move it from one place to another. L You mean, like those kettles -- AE No, kettles, they couldn't move the kettles that way. The kettles are too big. See, kettles are something that could weigh 20 ton by itself, just sitting in the pit. L Huge. AE Yeah, they're big. Yeah. To hold 60 ton of lead, they got to be big~ Cause after they. Hell, I don't know how they empty the kettles there at the smelters here, to tell you thetruth, but it has to be some kind of a crane. Cause where! was, they had a crane with a bucket on it . Asbig as this table, or bigger. Only it's round. And just scoop down there and pick it out and take it where you want it and dump it. That's the way it went all day long. But over here, I don't know just how they did move it. But I'm quite sure they didn't bail it out of there by hand. I never did hear my Dad say. L What were the kinds of things your Dad would talk about in terms of work? What did he tell you about work? AE Atthe smelters? L Ahuh. AE Not a heck of a lot. No, he was more like I was. He'd come home from work, he was through with it. He'd never--never heard him say about having any trouble. Or once, I think, he was going to try a guy's head with a shovel- But other than that, he didn't have much to say about it. L Overwhat? A shovel about what? Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-15 AE Oh, just wa nt ed to be bad, I guesss. So, they ended that real quick- Whatever trouble he had, on a job like that where it's rough, you run into all kinds of deals. But he didn't discuss it too much. Bill. ·He might have toldBill more about it because Bill was older than and Dad being younger, they might have stood around and kicked around a bit- But. As much as I was around him, he didn't talk about the smelters very much- L What's the kind of things that he did 'tell you? Teach you. AE Well, one thing he taught all of us boys, that's how to work. And. He never was all that strict with it, but of course, we were a pretty good bunch of guys and we just went on and done what he wanted us to do- And help him do what­ever it was and it worked out pretty good. Which it worked out damn good because I left home, I knew how to work. Whatever I worked on, I knew it had to done, and whatever it consist of, and that's what I was being paid to do. But he didn't press us- For that way. L Your father knew what hard work was, you're saying. AE Yes, he started out as a kid- Hell, when he was 12 or 14 years old, he was doing types of things that the average young man can't do today. But, there was no one else to do it, so he had to do it. And when you're with some one else as your gaurdian or people, well, if you want to eat, you'll do alot of things. So I guess that's the way he was. But he didn't harp on too much. He got a kick out of that land grab deal, with those people- Of course, he didn't geb Albert Elkins 6- 7-83 s1-16 none of it, he was--this here Watsons, I say, that's who he was with. And after that, he'd tell about, oh, the accidents and snakes and stuff like that. But other than that, he didn't say a hell of a lot about that. L What did he tell you about accidents and snakes? AE Oh, wheel rim broke-There were snakes μpin the wagon. Horses running away on account of the snakes.And a few fights with the indians and all the rest of those characters down there- =={someone asks, didn't grandpa talk about Bell Starr and Butch Cassiday.0 Well, if I got started on Bell Starr and Butch Cassiday. {he laughs} L Why don't you tell me about Bell Starr and Butch Cassiday. AE Well, he knew them, that's all I can say about them. He knew Bell Starr pretty well and also the Dalton Brothers, if you know who they are. L I heard of them. AE Well, he knew those characters. But he was just a little kid under them. L How did he get to know themf AE Well, in Kansas. In - what in the hell is the nameof that place in Kansas. There is a prison down there in Kansas. Hmmm. We was in there. We came through there once or twice. Where they did a lot of hanging and killing. Wmn That cowboy town? Wichita? AE Ah, that's where-- Wmn The OK Corral and all that. AE Well, In Dodge Kansas is about the same. He was down around Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-17 Dodge , Kansas. That's hell, that's quite a way from Kansas City, of course. L what did he exactly tell you about these people? How did he describe them? AE Oh, he'd tell about Bell Starr. I don't know whether he was in love with her or not. But she was quite a marksman, you know. She could shoot the eyes out of a snake. And, of course, that impressed him, I guess. But the Dalton Bros. - those rough guys, they were just a bunch of rough characters that he'd seen and tried to' know but stay out of their way. Now, that's all about allhe'd tell us. I guess he told Bill and them more about it. He might have added a little more on to it for all I know. I guess he got along with them. He come out of it alive. Well, I don't know what this tape has got on it but--- L About Butch Cassiday? What did he tell you about Butch Cassiday. AE Hell- Who was the one that shot Tommy Howard. No, that was what-s-his-name boys. Frank and Jess - James? Jessie James. Yeah. See, all these guys were down there in Dodge City. And how well he knew them, I don't know- But he knew a lot about them just from seeing them or being in the same town they were in. Of course, I don't say they were running buddies. But he just knew them like we know, like we know Reagan. Just about the same difference. L Ronald Reagan? AE Ahuh. L But he's a little bit further down the road- Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-18 AE Well, ~at's about how well my Dad knew these guys. Jsut what he read, what he was told and etc. And so, that's about the only way it is. He-- Wmn --they ~re famous-- AE They were famous people in those days. I guess, for a young guy to know those kindof people, that was, hell, quite a feather m your cap, I guess. Wmn --if you get near enough to speak to them-- L On this smelter in Murray. What kinds of nationality, do you remember? AE Most of them were Greeks and Italians. See, there was a lot of Greeks in Murray. Lower ~rt of Murray, at one time, well , as a matter of fact, it was a Greek Town. And the biggest part of them were Greeks out there. And some whites of course. Colored? There were only one or two. Some would come and stay for a month or so or less and go on. But very few colored. L Besides you guys, who was down there? AE I had a cousin down there-Nate Bankhead. And he worked there. He was there a good 20 years also. But, ah. And then there were one or two others, they worked awhile. Like Ed LaGroad. I think Ed Lagroan worked for the smelters for awhile. So did old Dan Foster , didn't he. What about wasn't he out at the smelters for awhile? Wmn --he worked out at the he got sick. He'd be off L What's your maiden namef What's your parents name? Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-19 Wmn L F-L-A-K-E? AE Abe Flake he came out here with old Brigham Young. That's. Wmn {laughs} L Was that Green. Wmn Green Flake - he's up in Idaho. L Isn't he the one who came out with the Mormons? Wmn Yeah. I think he was supposed to have come out with the Mormons. Comeout here. And he went on from here to-- Ae Talk lied me into Wmn , Idaho. {laughs} AE Yeah, tell him about the ~ue. L Do you remember the atmosphere down there at the smelters with the Greeks and the Italins? Did they get along? AE Among themselves, you mean? Now, I really wou;dn't know. I don't know how they got along among themselves. I guess like the average working class of people'. They would have their squabbles and ups and down. But as far as my Dad's concern , that's the only run in I ever heard him mention where he was mad enough to want to fight. So, if there's any others, it was just a little brush off. And went on about your business. L Sounds like your Dad was ~big enough guy so not too many people probably fooledaround with him. AE Well, he's a good sized man. Stood a little over 6 foot. Carried about 210-220 lbs. But he didn't throw his weight Albert Elkins 6- 7-83 s1-20 around no more than we do. I've been running around here for years. As a matter of fact, 70 of them. And as I've up to tonight, I've neverbeen in jail in my life. And I've had very few fights. Or course, I was a .guy -~I never did start anything. I'd leave people ~~~~ alone. And yet, I don't know, I just e1n!t fight as look at you. I guess, fuey let me alone. So as I grew older, I got to thinking, well, hell, why fight when you can walk away from it. So , just cool down tha t way. Butit's easy to get in trouble. Too damn hard to get out of it. That's why I 'd rather stay out of it- L You mentioned you got into some fights when you were a kid. What kind of fighting wouldyou get intot AE Fighting over women. That's what causesmost trouble in the world. Andof course, someone callsme a name, he was in for a fight- L What kind of name? AE Oh, they'd callyou a nigger in a minute, you know. That was the old pit word, in the world- And some guy would laugh it off, others wouldn't. And when you're running around with a bunch of whites, you're going tohave your ups and downs. But all the time I was running with them, I didn't have that *h trouble. Not-,-- no more than trying tobe a bully for a minute and whip the whole crowd or some other stupid thing or another. Buton the average, we got along pretty good with these damn Mormons. And. Bill· He was a little hot headed too~ in his younger days. But yet, he had a lot Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-21 of fun when the whole mess. L Did the Mormons ever make use of · that theology that they used to have--that they believed that blacks were marked or were cursed. Did they ever--ever pass that stuff on to you. AE Not to me direct. They still believe that same thing, I guess. But, ah, not to us as I know of. When we were around them, we were treated justlike everyone else. Of course, now, in this damn town years ago, you couldn't go to shows either you could sit up stairs a nd all that stuff. And as far as restaurants were concerned, there wasn't too many places to go eat. But in those days, there wasn't that many blacks here, so they didn't worry about it too much, I guess. IT's different now. Of course, it's different all over. But there's prejudice all over too. Not only here in Salt Lake with these Mormons but anywhere you go in this United States right now, there's a certain amount of prejudice. Always will be. L You think there always will be? AE It will be in our time. It was levelling crf there pretty well along Martin Luther King's deal when he was - but since then, things settled back again. Yeah. we'll have running water going on here .... {Tape picks up the running water] L So you--it soundslike you had to grow up tough. If you couldn't fight, you'd get pushed around. AE Well, that's the same way it is today, don't you think- If you --ah--it isn't thepoint of walking around trying to show Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-22 someone how bad you are, or one thing or another. But, if you let everybody step on your toes and don't say excuse me, pretty soon, theyh've got a whole damn foot on you--or anything else. So you just holdyour own. In any walk of life. Right here wherel'm living now. I'm the only black in this section here. And I get along good with these people. We speak. We talk- But if one gets out of line, I'm ready to put him back in line. And that's the on 1 y way i t can be , L Have you had people make remarks to you here? AE Uhuh. No.No. They haven't said nothing to me. But I don't crowd them either. I dpn't go over there visiting all the time. Or the one over here--he wants to go fishing all the time. But I don't run around with them that much. There's only one mistake the average black can make and that's when he starts to drinking with a bunch of poor paddies . Cause when you do, you're asking for trouble. Sooner or later, there's going to be a wisecrack involved. But, my wife and I - - we go over here to the spa. And I don't guess there's over 4 or S blacks in it all together. Ofcourse, I've only seen one. Hell, we go there and do what we're doing every day. Whatever days we go. We don't have no trouble. But. I won't say you won't. The r e's always got to be a wiseguy sooner or later that's going to say something. And you can get him told in your own voice theee's no point in starting a fight- So you just talk it off. Tell him off. And where it leads to from then , that's hard to tell- ALBERT Elkins 6-7-83 s1-23 L How did you make out in those fights, you used to have as a kid'? AE I've been whipped. And I've whipped alot of them,too. Yeah. Damn right. Yeah. the worst one I evergot into was with a little Japanese boy. ~e was over there playing football, I guess, whatever. I don't know how we got into it. But man we fought there for twenty minutes and when he wasn't sitting on his pants, I was sitting on mine. Until they got - the principal came out and got us,I guess. He stopped us and made us shake hands- We shook hands and went on across to the PX or whatever that little store was. Bought a soft drink and stayed friends ever since. {chucklesl)But he could fight. He wasn'tno pushover. As a matter of fact, I was damn glad when they ~opped him­{ Real laughter} That guy was too rough for me!! So, I don't know. L Did the Rosenblatt people own that smelter ever. The one-the _Murray Smelter. Do youremember that name Rosenblatt? AE Yea they had something to do with it, yes. L duringthe war years or after wards? AE Before. Yeah. I don't know how they ~re ~valved or how much they did own, but they were involved with it, yeah. How did you get that name? L That's fromthe Jewish community and I interviewed the son of the father and it was the father that owned it- AE He should be 100% right- Because I know the name allright. And I've heard it before. But just row much of it he owned and Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-24 what amount, I don't. L Yousid about a couple of thousand guys were working there. AE Yeah. L Did they go on shifts at al l ? AE Yeah. L Did they work 24 hours. AE Three shifts a day. Morning, afternoon a nd night. The grave yard . L Your fahter worked allthe shiftst AE He'd schange shifts right along withthem. Two weeks of days and afternoons and nights .. And that's the way it went all the way down. Same way where I was working. All smelters run three shifts a day. Thisone out here, of course, out here. Garfield Smetlers. Still runs three shifts. They have to because they can't shut those things down. That iron and stuff . once you get it up to that temperature, it's got to stay there. And they just work it all the way around the clock. L Did what your father earn there, was it enough for the family? You had a large family? AE Well, $3 a day for wasn't very much, even back then. But like I say, during the summer and spring, we did alot of work with our team. L Now, tell me how you got into that. How did that start? What do you remember about it? AE Well, I don't know how it really got started. He just had a good team of horses and plowing his own ground. Well, then, one guy asked him if ·he'd plow for him and while anotherone was going, pretty soon spring and fall, Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-25 we was just going like mad. And when I got old enough to take over before he got home from work. Why, I'd be off on a job. And he'd come to me or meet me there or some other thing. And we'd just work. Plow a little pieceof ground for a dollar and a half. Two dollars. Depends on the size of it. Two or three hours at a swing there. So, we'd make as much there - well, hell, twice as much, just on the side that he'd make at the smelter. L What kind of plow di q;ou use. Did you ·walk behind the horse team. AE Ahuh. L Just plowing by hand there. AE Yeah. Yeah. The place wouldbe too small for a riding plow or something like that. Just some load. Same way with the Herald- Well, the Herald, they would cover, say, 16 foot, when you putthem together and drag them. But, that's the only ~y it couldbe done . Cause sometimes you'd have to take the earn apart and go through a little gate like this one right here. And then bring the plow and the h behind them. To plow a little piece of ground, as big as my back yard. L You sometimes plowed stuff that small? AE Oh, hell, 90% of it was that small- Yeah. Yeah. A lot of it was alot bigger too. Some of it was as high as a couple or three acres. But most of them were just lots. Just little garden spots for people to plant stuff in them the spring year. Tht's what made it easy. It made it nice, ,v Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-26 actually. Because you know, once you got in there, you could be an hour there, an hour and a half and go to another one. It's those big place--I don't think I liked them even whenI was a kid. But I've done a lot of them. L How didyouget started working with the greenhouse there. AE I started helping my Dad. He knew the Sorensons. And I guess he contracted tohaul all the dirt for them. And we hauled it in or out of there for - god, ten or 15 minutes. L Where didyou go get it. end side 1 begin side 2 L Millcreek you were saying? AE We used to go up there with a team of horses, two wagons. And load them up and bring them down and dump it. L Just regular dirt or manure too? AE No, no. Just dirt up there. Old red, sandy dirt. That's what it took to grow those flowers- Which was a bt better than this junk we got down herein the valley. So, we'd go up there at the foot of the mountains and bring it down for furn. L Do you remember what kind of stuff they grew in the green houses there? AE Just flowers. Of all types. Carnations- Everything. Just regular hothouse flowers. Yeah. Well, he -- Well, of course, after Sorenson died, his son took over and his son is still in it. He's up on, close to where you were- Around Evergreen. ~ Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s~-27 There. Thatbig florist on 33rd South. He's up there now. L So his son must be about your age, I would guess. AE Scott. Wayne. Yes. Wayne is -- I think Wayne is a few months olderthanI was. No, he was older. Because he and D~n, my brother, were close the same age. L They Mormon boys. AE Oh-I don't know what. To tell you the damn truth, I don't know what the Sorensons were. Wmn They were Mormon- A They were Mormon? Wmn At one time. Don't you remember the young --- didn't he marry someone else after he got out of this -- AE Well, he's talking about the old man Sorensons. Now the boys, yeah, yes they all ~nt up there to the Mormon church. AndI guess-I guess they're Mormons. Yeah. Although I never did hear them going to church, but they were Mormons. You know, they run the business. And you had to be damn near Mormon if you want to keep it going. I don't think it's any difference now, is it? L Well,there's some business that kept going, but they got to cooperate with the Mormons, hire Mormons and what not. AE Darn right. So. In order to get along in this town, you either join with the Mormon church or you keep in with them one way or another- That's the easiest way to do it- L The one intersting thing that I've noticed is that there's not an awful lot of pulic oppostiion to Mormons. If there 1s opposition, it's kind of quiet and hidden. It's not-- Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s1-28 AE It's hidden yeah. L Its not really public. AE No. No. Wmn {some of whichis inaudible because mike is not on her} treated right and everything and I think people don't worry too much about it. Just so they're not forced to do anything that they don't want to do. L LEt me ask you one thing I haven't askedyou about. How did your mother take care of the kids? Did she work or did she primarily-- AE My mother stayed at home and took care of her family. My Dad provided for all of us until some of us boys got large enough to help him. And ben ~ all just worked together. Of course, we raisedhogs and chickens and one thing or another and killed them during the winter. L Did you smoke the meat too? AE We smoked it and cured it, yeah. Lived ~tter than the average family in town. Black or white. Cause we had ~verything right there at home. L Did you have a garden too? AE Oh, yeah. Sure, we raised a garden. We stored about 20 or 30 bushels of potatoes and onions. Killed two or three hogs and a beef. We lived that well- That part was all well and good. There just wasn't any moenyto kick around. But, she ddn't need that much. Andof course, my mother was Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s2-29 quite a seamstress. She could make or sew anything.So she kept the boys and the girls just pretty neat. L So she made all you guys' clothing. AE No. Well, she made thegirls dresses mostly. Allthe girls ·were dressed. We boys, we bought those little Levis. Of course, when one would get a hole in it. She'd patch it andp..Jt it together and almost like it was new. She just kept it clean. No. My ramily got along pretty well. L Did you guys attend any church down there or get involved in any religious--? AE No. I used to go over to the Mormon Church and listen to them once in a while . Sure, when I was a kid, I'd go over there and go to the Mormon dances. I didn't believe them, L AE . Of course,I don't believe anything half the time, no. So, I listened to that crap. Go in one ear and out the other ear. Half the time, I didn't know what hew as talkingabout anyhow. And didn't care. But they'd come by,get us, welcome us there. Still do. Every time we look up, one of these damn Mormons, they want me to join the church right here. Boy. they ' re persistent, one thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah- they marcharound herein pairs all the time. See them on Sunday Morning, running around here, trying to get someone to go to church. I send my wife to church- The kids, they go. I don't go anywhere. L Did your mom or parents go to church? Albert Elkins 6-7- 83 s2 - 30 AE My mother did. Dad didn't go to church- He always said there's more damn hypocrites inthe church than there was out, so he stayed out. And he's about right- L What about your mother. What did she think of the church? AE She lovedit. Sang in the choir. She was a missionary. L Mormon missionary? AE No. No. No. She was a Baptist. L Baptist missionary. Was there a Baptist church down there? AE In twon Salt LAke. L No, down by the smelter. Did she comeinto town to go to church- AE Well,she did all this after she had married and had her family. I don't know what she did down therein Murray, she was't there that long. A single woman. When she came up from Wellsville to Murray, I think she was -16 years old. And I think her and Dad were ~rried, what, when she was 18? About? Wmn ROughly . L Young. But at that young. At 18- AE At 18 us not very young, no . Wmn No in those times. It wasn't young. Mostof the girls by then, at 18, they was already married. AE ·- Yeah, at 18, theywere beginning to worry if they wasn't married. They were afraid they'd be an old maid- No, no, she attended their church - after she wasmarried and they were right there on third east and 39th South- L What church did she go to? Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s2-31 AE CAtholic church- The same one you're going tohave this affair at? I meant the Calvery not Catholic. Calvery, I'm sorry. Yea-. She's a Baptist all the way through~ I guess all of us are. Of course. I being in and out of church, joining several churches. Sang in most choirs. But. I - I got lazy. Here last. But I may start going back to church again- L What -what may I ask made you leave Salt Lake1 AE Well, I turned 18. When I was 17 or something. I married a girl. She was from Louisville, Kentucky. Hell, I had never been away from home. And I decided it was time to leave. So I went to Louisville. L Where di d you guys meet? AE Right here in town. L She was visiting here? AE Ahuh- Yeah. Too bad too. But anyhow. L What was her name? AE Her name was Stanton. Ellie Stanton. L Did she have family here at that time? AE Old Lady Jefferson was her neice . Ever hear of anyone mention herf Of course, she's dead now. But Old Lady Jefferson has been here for years. Had a lot of property here. A matter of several houses. But. After she got too feeble, here, wbat about 3 years ago--3,4. This same girl came and got her and took her to Chicago and I think she died there. Not long afterward. L So the young woman you met. Her name was Stanton? Miss Stanton? Albert Elkins 6- 7-83 s2-32 AE Yeah- We- I went down to Kentucky. Of course, I didn't like it down there. L It soundslike you fell in love. AE No, no. Just tobe doing something. I stayed down there about 4 or S months. And I left and come back to Omaha. And she wanted to stay there and I wanted to stay in Omaha. She stayed there and I stayed in Omaha. So I didn't waste noSiJeat about it. ThenI married again. Of course, she died. and June and I married. As soon as she leaves, I'll marry someone else. Wmn Not unitl I AE {laughsD I've lived a happy life. Not to many downs and outs. We came here and in the 20 years we've been here --25 -- we;ve bought three houses, sold- The mly reason I didn't sell this one is she's threatened to leave. And so I didn't sell it. You know, that's a good turnover. L Three houses? AE I mean real estate in general. L YOu mean rightnow. AE Sure, you can buy and sell real estate a damn sight faster than you can by working for it. L You left here at a bad time. During the Depression. Did that make it tough foryou in terms of finding work? AE Well, yeah. Sure. There wasnt any work anywhere. But, I don't know. We got by. In Kentucky, she had an uncle down there that worked in some damn store or another. And I went to work there. But I just wasn't in the mood to stay in it anywhere. Working either. So I just Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s2-33 got on out of there- I went to Omaha- I liked it there pretty well and stayed there quite a while. L What didyou do there in Omaha? AE Well, that's whenI was working at the smelters. Which is over :in Co ----- Bluffs, just across the bridge. So I worked the smelters for about, oh, twelve, almost thirteen years. ThenI came on back- Well, I went to Los Angelos then. And then back here to Salt Lake. L You stayed m Contact with your people back here in Salt LAke then? AE Sure. L What kind of contact did you maintaint AE Telephone- Yeah. we knew every move which was ever made. Now, we were a family, my friend, it was one for all and all for one. And still the same way now. If one of us got a dime we've all got that same dime. We never did pull apart. And her family ~etty much the same way. The whole bunch of those kids. There's not one of them who wouldn't give to the other one if he had to go without himself. That's the way we were. So- {birds chirping in the background} L Let me ask you one more thing. What made you decide to head back here1 AE Well, after my wife died,, I came home to my people here, of cours e . And, of course, and I had that little fat head with me, five years old. And -- L She was with you. AE And when I ran into June here, she had that little fat head which t five years old- So we just thought, what the hell we need help. And we just married and took it from there. Still aoina {Lauahs nice and hard} Now, people that Albert Elkins 6-7-83 s2-34 I love, I don't know about love. Hell, we got along as good as anyone. And we've never separated and do very little arguing. 8ecuase I don't like to argue. So we just lived our life . . Went on from there. Well, I guess if my wife hadn't of died, we would have probably stayed together. We was just like we two are. L What happened? Did your wife get sick? AE Yeah- She had some kind of pneumonia of some kind- Yeah. L Did she die quickly. Or a -- AE It came on fast in a way but she lingered on for about six months and then just died.