Interviews with African Americans in Utah, Clarence Beridon, Interview 4 and 5

Transcript (36 pages) of two interviews by Leslie Kelen with Clarence Beridon on May 6 and May 9, 1983. From Interviews with African Americans in Utah

Mr. Beridon recalls his marriage, his relationships with Mormons and the L.D.S. church, and thoughts on Martin Luther King, Jr..

;3 -/t -11;-~c /t-/7 to --22 22 -23 :2-~ -25 20 -28 ;f-:?-0 Clarence Beridon 5-6-83 4th int. \- \ ·'" · ' i L OK. One of the things I wanted to ask you about was: A lot of people I've spoken to have said to me that coming into Salt Lake, one of the things that was difficult was that there were very few black people here. Real hard to mee them. I was wondering how you and your wife met in town here? CB Well, we met through a friend of hers. And when I first came up here, I was single, see. And I got a room with this lady. And, oh, we talked one day and she said, "I have a lady I want you to meet." I said, "OK, I'll be glad to meet her." And then it was onething and thenanother. 1 She made arrangement. No, what it was. I went to the barber shop one day and she was sitting in the barber chair having a trim and all. So we started talking. And talking with her, I found out that she was the lady that my landlady wanted me to meet. So we made an engagement to meet down at the landlady's house. And that's just about how we met. L Men and women used the same barber shops. CB Yeah. L Really? CB She was just having her neck trimmed, you know. Yeah, yeah, they come in around here, cut the women's hair. They still do. L In the local barber shops. CB Yeah. L I've never seen that? CB Yeah, you ---- the barber shop I go to. ---5th North and about 12th West, gee, he trims women's hair. Cut women's hair. Do all that stuff to women's hair. I don't know exactlywhat you call it. L You mean the permanents? Well, what was it like trying to date here? What was it like going out. I mean, how would y.ou meet people? Where would you meet people. Clarence Beridon 5-6-83 p.2 CB Mostly inchurch. Mostly in church. L Cause there weren't too many clubs you could go to. Right. CB No,oh, no,no. Well, my wife was a church woman. She was a Christian know. And that is mostly where we would, you know, meet different woman. And she went to church and social functions at that time, you I people and different time. ~~~~~- picnics, and things like that. L Wereyou looking to get married [repeats question] at that time? CB Not at that time, no. Uhuh. [we dated] and after I found out that she was about the woman you know that I would like to have for a wife. We got married. And we stayed. We celebrated our 52 anniversary. That's a pretty long time. And she passed 3 years ago on the tenth of · this month which would be next Tuesday·, I think. Ten years -- I mean 3 years ago, she passed. So I mis-- I'm just hanging on here now, just waiting on, waiting on time. Doing thebest I can. L What was your--how do you remember her, laking back when you guys met. CB Well, one of the most wonderful women I've ever seen or heard or to tell you the truth, for my part. Yeah, I give her credit fo~ my success so far. I give her all the credit. L How did.she help you. CB Many ways, many ways. L Can you tell me some things that she did to helpyou? CB Hmm, well, I couldn't pick out any one thing when.She made a wonderful when we bought that . wife. And she was with - home, she worked right side of me and helped pay for it. And after we got it paid for, I made her quit work and take care of the home. I -- That was a hell of a heck of help right. there. And she taught me many things about life. Crhistian life, especially. we went . . We'd taken trips together. I remember .over in Canada together. Oh, jsust travel all over the United Sta tes . She made a trip over toMexico. She wanted me to go with her and I didn't want to go. I'd ClarenceBeridon 5-6-83 p.3 didn't want no part of it. I don't agree with that -- the water or the water don't agree with me. So every time I go down there, I pickup the diarreha. Hard to stay away from there. Nothing down there I want any-way. There's plenty in this country here to be seen.Plenty in this country. IF people would just take time out to see it. Oh, like people just like to say, oh, I've been in a foreign country. I've been over here. Well, I've been in two foreign countries, Mexico and Canada. Although Canada is not a foreign country anymore and considered a foreign country. But when I was over there, it were. L Was your wife always involved with the church from the timeyou met? CB Yeah, and long before I met her, she was involved in the church work. And involved in the church work until she just had that age and she couldn't get around much like she liked to. And so she just turned it over tothe younger people. L WHat were some of the kinds cf things your wife would do in the church. CB Oh, she would teach Sunday School, missionary, belong to the missionary. Just an organization of the church. Kind of a leader, you might say. And she was::>ne of the-- when she passed, I think she was about the oldest one that was a member of the church. Had been, oh, been on the church roll longer than anybody else. See, her father and her mother and all of them belonged to the same church. And she's was the onliest one that I know of that had taken up to the church andstuck with the church. L Really? CB Yeah. L She sounds like a pretty outspoken person. CB Yeah. · L Was she a pretty outspoken. CB She very outspoken. She'd tell you what she thought Andif she didn't care too much for you, she wouldn't have nothing to do with you. She wouldn't say anything about you or against you. But she just wouldn't '' Clarence Beridon 5-6-83 p.4 say anything about you or against you, but she just wouldn't have any --any social dealing with you. That's one thing. She'd tell you, too. She'd tell you. L Did she ever talk to you about the NAACP and what she did with it. CB Oh, yes. Yes, we talked -- she was a NAACP member and I was. We both carried our card. We'd attend NAACP meetings and different functions they would have. L Couldyou tell me some of the things that she did for the NAACP? Some of the things she talked about? CB Not right off hand, I couldn't recall them right now. We'd often discuss the work that the NAACP was doing at that time. The good work. L For instance, what? CB Well, the NAACP did so doggone much, it would be hard to pick out any particular one to say which one that you could discuss L She, I understand, was its first secretary, right? CB Yes, in Salt Lake. L In Salt Lake. CB Yeah, she was the first secretary of this branch here. Well, she helped organize the NAACP he~e in Salt Lake. L What was the incident, did she ever talk about it? That made the NAACP get organized here. CB Well, one incident. They were.A bunch of colored people were riding and she was sitting in the back of the truck and a bunch of soldiers came up and taken her out of the truck and fortunate enough, there was enough to keep any violence or anything from happening.And she wanted to work right ' then . and there. And she'd been working ever since on that. L Now, she was in a truck? CB Yeah, sitting on the back of the truck. They had a little hay. They were going to have alittle hay ·ride. And these damn soldiers came up, you Clarence Beridon 5-6-83 p.5 know, and got smart. And you know, they could over power them. L Were these black soldiers or white soldiers. CB White soldiers. L CB White soldiers. Yeah. L Where was this out. Was this out in the farm lands there. Or in town. CB In town. Right here in town. L Who stopped it? Who got in the way of it. CB Well, they sent an investigator in here. The Army was supposed to investigate it. But you know what they are gong to investigate. Putting be the last cr it. The same as the city. The city would do the same thing. Like, I called I called one of th-se here this last sununer. Some kids had been messing around in my barn. They even come back in there and cut the wire between my boat and my van. Mou know,the wire that leads back to the boat. Got a lot of mud and stuff through all the back of my house back there. So he says, "Well, what do you want us to do about it?" [shouts] "Well, what are you supposed to do about it. I'm reporting this to you like I should. Like the law tells me to do. And I done report to you and if I catch them over here, you're going to come take them away." I haven't seen or heard from him anymore. So, why I called the police. They would do that. That's just one thing you got to contend with. L How was she , your wife, able to organize people after that incident. CB What did she do after that happened? Well, went over and meeting 2mong them and it came out in the paper. And_.:~- called a the NAACP got ahold of it and they came here a nd t hey ~Jul i.L ~tarted . llor being i nvolved in it . We l l , naturally, they went to her. And t a lked with her. And appointed her as Clarence Beridon 5-6-83 p.6 secretary and treasurer her of this branch. And then 1hey called an election and they elected president and vice president and officers. And what not. And she served oh for many and many years. L LEt me ask you something, were there colored soldiers here too at that time black. CB There were soldiers. There wasn't any in this incident. Now, there was some, at that particular time, up at Fort Douglas. There were some up there a that particular time. But what could they do. They couldn't do • One or two here - there's about 5-600 whites. It would be foolish to try. L YEs, itW>uld' have been. They would have been. CB I wouldn't have tried. L It would have been carazy actually. CB It would have been crazy to try, yeah. L Did the NAACP meet likeonce a month. CB They met once· a month. L How large. When you look back over the years, how large was the group that would meet from month to month. CB Oh, I'd say 75 or 100 something like that. L 75-100 people? CB Yeah. L Would get together each month. CB Yea. they'd have a meeting. Like the first Monday or the first Tuesday in each month. And they'd meet in church and different places. L Now, I was t a lking to Albert Fritz andhe became president in '56. But CB All of this was before Fritz's time. L I know this, yeah. I wa s thinking though, if you look back at the NAACP ___ _ ___________ in tne _~Os and __ t he_J_Q_Q _ .___L in this. Q.t:e i..1 here. um. we l l. wha t w ~ar nid v011 Clarence Beridon 5-6-83 p.7 come here. CB I came herein '27. L '27. So you'd have some idea of it, yeah. What do you remember the NAACP being involved here in in the 1930s. What kind of incidences and par­ticular kindsof work stand out. CB Just general work. That's all I can say.Well, there were incidences all right. But right at that particular time, I don't recall a par­ticular incident. I don't recall. L Well, what would be the normal kind of month-to-month work you were involved in. · CB Well, they would normally ask, you know,to report. If someone would go somewhre and be refused service, something like that. You reported back to the NAACP. They would in turn file it into the National Office. And if it was involved, something big enough, they would send an attorney or somebody out here to represent the NAACP. It--they helped a little. The NAACP did great work. They still doing good work. L So you were reporting htse incidences in the 30s. Incidences of-- CB She was -- she was reporting them. L What are some of the things that you got involved in? CB Well, nothing in particular. I put in the NAACP. I'd--nothing I was never involved with anything serious since I've been here, you know. L Do you remember in 1939? Apparently some white legislature got it into his head that there were too many black people living in ~th South and 200 East. And he was going tornove them to the northern section of town. Do you remember thatincident? CB NO, I don't. L You don't remember that? CB No, not offhand. I don't remember it. I know when I first came in it. I got a room. A room right around the corner of Second East and 7th South there. North, -- on the south east corner. ThP.rP. T rPnrP~ Clarence Beridon 5-6-83 p.8 from people by the name of Rinfr~. And hell, I stayed there a few months and then I got this room over to -- Mrs. Ellis. That was on North Temple. They're building some kindof building there row. A big huge building. It was just a boarding house. A great big old 2-story house. L So you don't remember any incidence about black people having to move. Of people talking about trying to move them. CB No, I don't recall that. L Let's go back to talking about your wife a little bit. CB Yeah. [wants to get the interview over so he can get back to his work] L Um. I can't get it over that fast because I've got a bunch of questions I want to ask. So. I'm trying to figure out. What to ask you to try to get kind of a picture of your wife and what she was like. And how How would you describe her. If you had to describe your wife to somebody who didn't know her and whom you might want to get to know her. What would you say. CB I don't know •. Like I said, she was a Christian woman. And a leader in the community among the black people. And so far as anything else, I wouldn't know. She was a fine woman. That's all I know. L OK Did she like to cook. CB Oh, yeah, she was a very good cook. Yeah. Her mother learned her how ofo cook.Her mother had 13 children and she was a second or third oldest one so she had to get in there and help her mother. So naturally she pickedup things from her mother. That whole in her life. L What were her parents' names. CB Steward. Sam Steward. L That was here father, Steward. CB Yes. L Did you~t to meet her parents. CB Yes. Clarence Beridon 5-6-83 p.9 L Did you get to know them. CB Yes. L What-- CB The wife wasnarned Alice. L What were they doing. CB He was working for the city. At a comfort station now at the corner of third south and state street. And he worked there for a number of years. L What's a comfort station. CB Well, you go down to the restroom and where you use the toilet. People go down and have. He had a shoe shine stand down there People go down and check things. Corne in and want to leave a package. Or some they go out shopping, come back and pick it up and then they go on home. See, you charge them a nickle or a dime, 15¢, you know. Whatever. I think the shoi~shine was 10 cent at thattirne. They had people come L/ up here and they'd give him 10 or 15 cents extra and well he made a living andhe fed his brood, his bunch. L Big bunch. Big family. CB Yeah. L Wha t h appened to stufflike that. Comfort station. They no longerhave them. CB Oh, they're abolished now. That's all closed up. You know that theatre on be north east corner there. Third s6uth and state.? The Century? Is that what it is? Well, the men' s :::was over on this side. The women's was over on this side. You go downstairs. And they had, you know, stall like toilets. And urinal stall. And different thing like that down in there. L This was a big thing. CB YEah, it was abig thing. It,,rlia,S.,.,.JJnder_ the_ around. Clarence Beridon 5-6-83 p.10 CB Yeah, it was underground. You went in through the -- you know, you went down some steps. L How many of those things did they have in town? CB Two. They had two there and they had two right up there where the statue is on North Temple -- No, south temple and Main Street. L You mean the big statue right in the middle of the street. CB Right. The Brigham Young statue there They had one for women's over there and on this side wasw£5~emen went down. L OnEB.ch side of the statue. CB Oncfhe ~f3~ of the street. coming from the corner from the sidewalk. /You'dTfi~t9~wR11 been closed there now. I don't know who used to work there. Some people used to work there, but I don't know. L ·Hmm. What did your wife do for work during the years that she was working. CB Well, she did housework She worked with people up on the east side. Her name, Bailey. He was a lawyer, big lawyer. He handled most of the federal cases. He lost a wife. And now he's married to one of the Ecceles widow over in Ogden. ,She's the head of that First Security Bank. So he's married to her now. His name was Bailey Calvin Bailey He's a very prominent lawyer. L Didyou guys know the lawyer in town, Oliver? CB Yeah. D.H. Oliver? Sure we knew him. L Did she ever do any work with him in terms of NAACP CB Well, through the NAACP yes. They did work together. He represented in the NAACP a lot of cases. Yes. L Do you remember any specific cases. CB No particular cases, no. I don'tremember any particular cases. L What kind of man was he D.H. Oliver? CB Oh, well, just like any other small town lawyer. He knew law but he You know what just didn't havethe front to present himself. I mean to say, he knew law. Clarence Beridon 5-6-83 p.11 CB But as far as presenting different things like that, he's very poor at it. He has a brother here now, Bob Oliver. He's well known here. L Bob Oliver. CB Bob Oliver, you might know him. L What's Bob Oliver doing now? CB He's working up at that mall, up there. He got a shoe shine parlor. He used to be there on second south and main? Florsheim shoes. And they tore that building down. They're building another one right now. And they - ah, Florsheim moved over to this mall. There on West Temple there and South Temple, there that big mall. L Oh, yea.yea. yea. CB Well, he's up in that. L He's in that mall? CB Yeah, with shoeshine. With the Florsheim shoe people. L What is that mall call. You mean that big one the one in the corner. CB You know whereUtah Woolen mill is? L Yeah. CB Right back of that. L so y9un wife worked for Calvin Bailey. Was she just--did she actually help him with his law at all or just in terms of his housework. CB Just mostly housework. L What did you think about the work, how did she like it? [Crossroads or ZCMI?] CB Oh, she liked it all all right. That's about all she knew. You know. As far as working. And, she went up there to Hickner Business College to e~roll in there to try to take up, you know. L WHat was the business college called? CB AH. Hickner The one by fue Church, the LDS Church. The Salt LAke Temple. Well, that's the Mormong church. Well, they had a place Clarence Beridon 5-6-83 p.12 for youngsters to comein there and go to school. And when they got jobs, go to work and then they would pay back whatever they owed their church. But the church told her that they wouldn't accept her because nobody would hire her because she wa' a colored woman. So she to on't w 0 ant [?] .Yeah, the church told her that. Said, "No, we wafte t enroll you in church because after you finish your course, there's nobody going to hire you. At that time, they would gaurantee you a job. They'd get you a job after you finished. They'd get you a job. But, what, I just think that the black people had to contend with. L It sounds like there just were not jobs available for black people in town here. CB Well, that's what theylNl.nted to make believe there was. And maybe there wasn't. I don't know. But anyway, she didn't get her schooling that way. She just stuck to domestic work. House work and different things like that. L sounds. I read that thing she wrote. I read that paper she wrote. That paper, that blue thing? She wrote pretty well. CB Yeah. yeah, good knowledge. She had a very good brain on her. It just wasn't developed like it should have been. Like if she had been white, it would have been different, see,,. She could have went on, see. They owuld have accepted her. L . would What were her ambitions. What kindsof things she have wanted to do. CB Well, wasn't much you know, a family of 14, thatisn't too much that you can do the best you can. There isn't too much. You can't all get education. ~ut the father wasn't making that kind of money. He was lucky to be able to support a family like that. L IF she had her way. If she were white, let's say, what .would she have wanted to do? CB Well,we never discussed it. That. ·what she wanted to do if she were white. Clarence Beridon 5-6-83 p.13 L CB What I mean, if she had a chance to go to school. Yeah. --She -- We never discussed it. What she wanted to be. L When she would think about some of the things she accomplished, she in twon. What are the things she looked upon with pride. What were the things she was pleased about having done? CB Well, ~ight off hand, I couldn't say. I could say, she's been quite helpful to the nieghborhood. To.r· the black people here in this city. Especially. L In what way would you say. CB Well, I -- I don't know anything particular. I wouldn't be able to say .. L Did she help people get food. CB . In general, she - just in general, helping. But to say any one particular thing, I couldn't pin point. L It doesn't have to be one thing. It could be one thing. CB Yeah, it couldbe many things. But at this particular time, I don't recall any of them. L [laughs] You're so anxious. You just want to get back to your wash .. [yes he is.] [break] [interview ------.] L Id idn't know that. CB NO, that was a separte union from us. They didn't go to the brotherhood. L The waiters and the Pullman porters a separate union. CB A separate union L Why did thatmppen. How did it come about. CB Well, 'I don't know. We went in and organized and after we got organized, they started negotiating and finally they got organized~ They went on about their business and we went on about ours. No, that was a different union all togehter. Clarence Beridon 5-6 (9) 83 p.14 L Did you guys not want them? CB Oh, no. I'd. No, to go into that, I really c.ouldn't say but I know it wasn't on account of we didn't want it. We went in -- they got some-body that started organizing them and got them set up the same as we did. L They started later, though. CB Oh, yeah. L Why is that, do you know? CB No, I do not know. L Now who is. I never really got a chance to ask you. How didyou get to be president of the union. How did thathappen? CB We 11 , one d.: f t he intenra-ti.o na 1 o ff.i ce came through here. A fellow by the Domes. From San Francsico. He came through here to set up a union. And we met him and we had a meeting among the pullman porters. Some of them had a meeting, but some wouldn't even how up. They were afraid. And, we--just got to talking. So he appointed president, vice president, secretary and·treasurer until we could get together and have an electio. And. the men taht he appointed served until electiontime. L How long was that. CB Oh, I'd say maybe a year - a year and a half, something like that. L What did he ask you to do? What was he hoping you guys would get accomplished. CB Well, we tried to get the men. The-the-the pullman porters to join in w·i t h t h e uni· on antod h e 1 p support t h e uni· on. You know, when theyfirst organized, [dues] was only a dollar and a half a month. We couldn't do much on that. But we had to start on be ground floor and work up. ABout 5 dollars a month when I retired. And I think it went up to about 7.50 or 8 dollars a month. Or something like that. L He appointed you president. CB No, I was appointed secretary-treasurer at tht time. Clarence Beridon 5-6(9) 83 p.15 L Yeah, at the beginning time. CB Yeah, at the beginning time. But later on, I was elected president. L WHo was the first president. Who was appointed? CB I guess. I imagine it was a fellow named Warren, but he passed now. 0 thur Warren. He was one of our first presidents, I know. We had --And the fellow Bridgeport, he come on later. He was about on the end of it. L do you remember how many of you there were at that beginning stage? CB About -there was around 30-35 porters. About 30 or 35. Somewhere along in that neighborhood. L That's a fairly good size to begin with. CB Yeah, we had quite a few. But see, we didn't have them all in the union. · That's how many pullman porters we had working out here. How many men we had to work on. See, this is just a small district. Salt Lake is one of the smallest district. Nothing like Los Angelos. Or San Francisco. Chicago and those kind of places. Where they have 4 or 5 hundred, you know, pul~man porters that work for them. L How many of those 30 or 35 joined the union right away. CB I'd say maybe 10 or 15. Something like that. And we just kept nagging after them. Calling meetings • Sometimes one would show up. Sometimes two. said I Sometimes nobody show. He/had to keep them going. Till finally we had enough to have a quorum. We started from that. As we went along and we progessed and when the other guy seen what was happening, then they find, well, I think I'll join in. Help support the organization. Andv.e had one man. He was an elderly fellow. He said he just couldn't believe in it. He wouldn't join it. He didn't think the brotherhood could make the pllman company do anything! And I said, well, we'll never know until we try. We've got to try. And after we· signed the contract with the pullman company, I went to him and I said, Now, what do you think about it? He said, "Well, you let me know when this union first started. I Clarencer Berdan 5-6 (9) 83 p.16 ~ r and intiation fees and then monthly dues from then on up to now. He said and I'll pay you.So I'd taken and wrote to Dellum. He was the vice president. He was over this territo~y. He filed it to Randall who was the president of the Brotherhood. And he wouldn't accept it. No, just tell him to pay initiationfees and be a union man and help support the union. That's all we asked of him. HE wouldn't he wouldn't let him go back and pay back since the brotherhood first started. Had it of been me, Yeah, man, come one! [laughs] something happened. Randall wouldn't go for it. So he paid up! He paid -paid-paid his dues. Kept on paying them too. L How many people did you have to have to have a quorum. CB 7. L Seven people. So if you didn't have a quorom at a meeting. CB It wasn't an official meeting. When you doesn't have a guor um. If you have 6 people there, you couldn't have a meeting. You had to have 7 people. L How often wouJd you meet? CB Once a week. L Diq,ou have a special thing you tried to do each month. CB Well, yeah. We had a certain program that we tried to carry out. And we'd give a little social function.Get the wives in. And then we organized a little ladies auxiliary to the brotherhood. Where, you know, they was wives of the pullman porters. And they helped us quite a bit. Especially if we wanted to put on a little something. Help raise a little money. And you have to have money to do anything. L What did the women do? How didthey raise themoney? CB Oh, they bought, maybe have dinners, barbeques. We'd buy the stuff up and go out and we'd sell dinner. You make a few dollars. Didn't make no heck of a lot of money. But. Made a little money and main thing was it keeps the people mingling together. Socialize more, you know. Clarence Beridon 5-6(9)-83 p.17 Meet with one another. We'd meet at the homes, sometimes. We'd and talk and then when we get through talking, we'd play a little cards. We just had a little social function •. Had a little ice cream, cake and different things. Have fish fries. And things like that. In the summer time. We had a pretty nice little bunch around here for a while. L Do you ever think--did you ever feel, did you ever think that you'd be involved in helping create a union? CB No. I never once give it a thought. Until after I went to work for the pullman company.See, I was with .the dining car. SP dining. Then I went to the pullman. L You werewokring the dining car too. CB Yes, SP diners out of Los Angelos. L I dind't know that. CB YEs, I worked for the SP diners for about 4 years. And I came up here in 1927 and have been here ever since. I worked here from 1927 to 1967. That's when I retired. I never thought I'd be living this long after I retired. I think, well, I'll~t out here and have a little fun for 2 or 3 years and I'll be dead like the rest of them. [laughs] Fortunate, I'm still here. L You look 1-ke you're going to be here a while longer. CB I hope so. Yeah. I like it here. [laughs] I'm not going to say I'll be glad when I'm gone - nothing like that. No. L Now, how did it feel for you to be involved in fue creation of that union. I feel very good about it. I-I-I appreciate the fact that I was part of it. I went to Chicago. To attend the convention. I went to Los Angelos, to attend another convention. See, they--After we got up and got a little money. Thecrganizationwould pay your expenses. See, we always got passes. Free transportation Didn't cost us anything. But. Our :board and room when we got t<b: ithese towns. They-ah, wo_uld cost something. ·- - -~- - --·-------·-·- -· ·- - ··- ··----- -~--·-- ________ ---- ------- -·------ Clarence Beridon 5-6 (9) 83 p.18 But the union would pick up on that. So, I was very very proud to be part of it. And for something thathad never happened before. And personally, I never even think it would happen. I was always one of these guys that tried to see if we coul ahake it happen. L So that old man who told you that it was never goingto happen. CB He said he just didn't believe that the Brotherhood could make the Pullman compnay do anything. He didn't believe it. L But alot of guys must have shared that kind of thinking. CB Well, yeah. yeah. But he was man enough to come out and tell you why he wouldn't belong. And then afteryou thoughtit over. I appreciated the fact that he was man enough to comeout and tell you WHY he didn't . join.AndI could see his viewpoint. I could see. If I didn't believe in something. I sure wouldn't want to be part of it. L Put money ipto it- CB Yeah. that's right. Put your money into it. That's the main thing. And money in hose days was money, you know. Heck man, a dollar in those days is almost 40 or 50 dollars now. I was .. When my wife was living, it was not too many years ago, I belonged to what you call the Traveler's Insurance Company. That's a group of men that all went in and Traveler's takes them in as a group. And when my wife was living, I would always pay my insurance by the quarer. It cost me $33 for my wife and I. For a quarter. Today, just try to make a guess what it costs me alone? L Per quarter. CB Yea.h, per quarter. Try to make a guess. L 100. $150. CB L $186! ' A quarter.that's what they charge me now! For you alone. CB Just me alone. Of course that carries a $2000 burial- funeral fund. And what's a man of my age going to do. Can't afford to dr9p the insurance. I Clarence Beridon 5-6(9) 83 p.19 I couldn't get no insurance at my age, you know. That's worth anything. L You mean try to change into into somet~ing else. CB Yeah. I wentup here to the -- Holy Cross Hosptial. I was up there about about 10 days. And man I had over $9,000 in debts. Andyou see, they send it on into MEdicare. Medicare didn't pay their part. L What happened to you for $9,000. CB Theinsurance company had to pick it up. And they picked it all up. Traveler's. They've got insured - now, they will pay. But just to pay from $33 a quarter for two people goes to $186 for one person! in a period of less than 10 years. Well, that's reidiculous. L That was less than ten years. CB Sure that was less than ten yeras, I've payed $33. L What happened to you for $9,000, what did you do. CB THat was a hospital bill. I had a -- a heart attack. L You had a heart attack. CB Yeah. L When was that .• CB Oh, that was in 1980. 80, yeah. 1980. Yeah, they picked up. They didn't argue, didn't bother and thefirst thing that the hospital is going to ask you,w/ heytohue rha ve medicare or not. Have you got another insurance? Cause see they know Medicare not going to pay all--everything, see. Yeah. I've got Travelers. So you mention the word Traveler's, that's allthere is. See, they wite it up and Traveler never asks one question. Never asked me one question as to why it is or why that. Nothing. i~I~ it all. I think the balance. They sent me a check for about $163. BEsides after they paid $9,000. I was in there let's say, 10 days. Almost a thousand dollars a day. (_~ ~l~t.) • • L That's an incredible amount of money. But it's worse than thatnow. And it's going up. every day. ----.....:-,-:-::---- ~-,:'··.-- ~·- - - - ----- ·---------- ------ - - - Clarence Beridon 5-6(9)-83 p.20 CB I--and I can't afford to drop it. Not at my age. L Yeah, you'd have a hard time picking up, anything else. CB I couldn't pick it up. At my age, I don't care what condition my health would be. I couidn't pick up another insurance compared to Traveler's Insurance. I couldn't do it. We get practically all the time, different insurance, senior citizen people and all that. Save your money, save --cause I'm going to try and pay it as longa s I can. You never know when you need it. L LEt me ask you something about the union again. Did people here in the area help you out? Di dthe people in the church? CB Oh, yeah, the church did. The different unions. The--the trade man union. The would come in and help us. We'd call on them. And sometimes they'd call on us. Yes. they were very very--different union. Railroad Union was very good that way. They'd support you. It would support you anytime. I don't think they ever turned us down. L Did you have any trouble from predominantly white unions in the area here. Did they thinkit was good what you were doing. CB Oh, yeah, yeah. They'd come right on it with us. And sometimes they couldn't be with us. I've seen sometime they couldn't afford to help us financially. But they -- let you know that they were willing, willing, you know. They, well, at heart, they hoped you the best. So they would do what .they could. Financially, the wouldn't have anything to give you, you know. To help the union out. L Do you remember goingby yourself personally to some of these places to try to get their approval or-- CB I met with several of the unions, you know, when they would have the name and address of all the different locals, you know. I had to phone a number and I'd call up, say, I want so and so and so and so. And they'd say, well, we're having a meeting, say, the second night. You know where we meet, the time and everything. And f you come here, Clarence Beriodn 5-6-(9)-83 p.21 L CB we'll allow you ten minutes or fifteen minutes. You know, and then you getup and tell them what you want to. And then you go about your business. And then they'll vote on it after you leave. And it's what ~ hey would do. No, it was very nice that way. So who do you remember going to in the area. What unions did you contact here. Oh, we contacted the trainm~gd the conductors, the brakemen. those people like that. I don't remember.Alot of those fellows have passed away too. I dont remember right off hand who they were. L Hmm. They each had a separate union. The trainmen. The conductors. The brakemen. CB the condcutor, and brakeman and then they were in a regular union . you would Engineerman and i: man, they had a separate -- they all They were allinone and were speaking but they all had a different local. They all had different set up. L WHat were you hoping to get from these people when you went to speak before them. What -- CB Well, you take people like that. They've been organized foryears and years and years. You may come across something that you didn't quite under­stand in the union. Well, you go down and Jay tt down on the table. Now, this come up. Now, they didn't have those things to come up. They didn't give you the advice of what to do or what not to do. end <fj side 1 begin side 2 L --you took their advice and you brought it back to your own group. CB YEa, yeah, they would .tell you that us. And maybe we'll let you hear from get a letter of something, take it up to tyour union meeting and read it out. · what they would advise you to do. What they would advise you not to do. And then j l Clarence Beridon 5-6-(9)-83 p.22 L we'd vote on it ourselves, what we wanted to do. Did we want to carry out their reconunendations. What if we didn't want to set it up. Do you remember any important issues that you brought up. CB Well, no, nothing at that particular time. I-- I think I said I didn't want to get too much involved in it because going back is a heck of a lot . . Just likeJackson. He knows what it's all about. He just don't want to bring it up. L What's bothering him, do you think? CB Well, right now, I don't know what's bothering him. But he's drinking awful heavy. He's drinking awful heavy. I don't know what's causing it. I don't think he's having any family trouble. It's just he and his wife and everytime you see them, it looks like they're getting along as good as they ever did. The go to church together. They go bowling together every week. L I'm wondering what agout being a pullman porter. And his memory could be bothering him. CB It could. It might have. Something may have happened.:in the past that he's trying to live down or something. I-I couldn't say. I really don't know. L You don't know. Well, Mr. Beridon, tell me, how did you get to be president of the union. CB Well, they elected me president. The members here. L Why. CB They elected me president. L Why CB WHy? I guess theythoughtI was better man for theposition at the time. You know, it was like any body else. Why did they elect the president of the United Staes [he chuckles] They figure he's the best man to win. To run the country,. Yes they re elected president, vice president, · secretary, treasury. You know, we went by. We were governed by the • We had a pretty good little set up. And what Clarence Beridon 5-6-(9)-83 p.23 we didn't know or didn't understand, we could always write in and find out. Or we can get on the telephone and call them. Just throw the phone bill on the other end, let them pay it! [chuckles] L What year did you get to be president. CB I don't remember, around about '35 or '40. Something like that. I told you about this fellow Jackson. See, all our old books had one secretary and treasurer to the other one when they elected a new secretary treasurerm they turned all the books over. Well, he had all the old b b book.s L I'd like to take a look at. CB Well, he has all tie names,. :.all the addresses. Phone numbers and everything. And you could get far more information fromthose books · than you could for any particular person. L How did you become president. I mean, why did they--Did they have. CB Did you compete with anybody else inthe process. Or did you just get. chosen. No, it doesn't matter. We got a andyou draw up your ballot and put the name on the ballot who was inthe mark. Square there with one. You t ake who's got the most a-a-a- votes, you become the president. L Wer ~ou surprised thatyou got to be president? CB No. No. I wasn't surprised. See, I served first as secretary-treasurer. And everybody knew rr~. And I got tired of that, and I said, well, let's change it around. You don't like position all the time. And they said, well, you know the bosses and you-you inside work of the union. They said, would you accept the position if we elected you. I said, yes, I'd accept it. So, I was elected. L What did you do during the time you were president? What were you responsible for? CB Well, we had our regula r meeting. I presided at the meeting. Correspond Clarence Beridon 5-6-(9)-83 p.24 with the union official. Carry out the orders. Whatever--whatever they would tell you to do. Men getting in trouble out on the road h . for them, and they would have earrniould hold hearing. A greivance committee. L Youwouldhold the grievance committee hearing.Not the company. CB No, I would hold it with the company. L You .would hold it with the comanyp. CB I'd represent the union. The men that were involved and the company would be on their side and I'd be on the union side. L Do you remember any one of those grievance meetings that you pre--that you were at. CB Yes, I rememberalot of them. About all of them. Now, that's what I say. Every one of those grievances and everything we had, Jackson had a copy of there, on the ledger, on the book. L He's got a copy of what they were about? CB Yeah, he's got a copy of all the different--yeah, we always kept a copy of --of -- each year, you know. Hell, we'd have a secretary up thre. They'd'have their secretary up there And we'd question them; they'd qustion us. You know, porter might go out, might put a passenger off at the rrwrong station. He might carry a passenger by a station. All of those things happened, you know. And different things involved. And sometimes it might give them certain time off. If it's serious enough, they may fire. And if they thought it was something that warranted dismissal, they'd pull him out of service. And we'd go in there to hear. And then. We ~~~ occasion. But tonake them put them back to work. Then they would haveto pay him all that back pay he was off. So bey were very particular about, you know, pulling a man off before they had a hearing. They used to do that when we first started. They'd do that right quick on you. L They'd pull somebody off. CB Yea-, pull you off right now. HAve a hearing later. After we made them pay Clarence Beridon 5-6-(9)-83 p.25 us so many back claims, they stopped that. They'd notify you. Hell, we're having a hearing. They'd put it in writing. Same same date. Same-same place. Maybe here, maybe Chicago. Might be in Denver. You never know. L YOu coulchave the meetingat any one of these places. CB Oh, yeah. You could have a meeting anywhere. L Did you ever help get somebody his job back? CB Oh, yeah. L Like what? Give me some instance in which you helped. CB I mean, a man would get fired. And we'd try to go"' back and get-get-get him back to work. And in a lot of cases, we got him back. Some cases, we didn't gethim back. BEcause the man was absolutely in the wrong. · And some of the guys that we got back to working, it was wrong. We knew it was wrong. But we got them back to work. You got to try, you know. A man paying his dues in the union. He don't pay it just to say I paid my dues. HE pays it for protection. And you have to protect him. L What would the job of being a pullman porter have been like without a union? CB Well, I'lli ·tell you, it was something else. It was far worse before the union there than it would - after the union. L What were some of the things the Union helped stop? CB Well, one thing about it. When I went to work and no union, we had to make 11,000 miles before we got our month pay. 11,000 miles a month. And whenI got off, retired from the railroad, we were making 205 hours a month. L You went from 11,000 miles-- CB --miles, I cut it down on an hourly basis. We went to --First started, got 240 hour.s Our first contract, they kept cutting it down, cutting it down, the last --when I retired, we were making 205 hours a month .. L Well, that's pretty reasonable. That's a lot more .. Clarence Beridon 5-6(9)-83 p.26 CB That's--that's the support of the union. That's where your union came That's why you paid your money for your union dues. For the union to represent you to get these things. L Hmm. What was the members hip here at its height. Do you remember? CB Membership here? ~ At its · height. When it was thenost. How high was it. CB Well, we never did have - right around 35-44 was out here. L That was the maximum CB Yeah. See, this is a smaller district. Now, take a districtlike Los Angelos, you may have 3 or 4 hundred porters down there. In Chicao,' you probably got 8 or 9 hundred, maybe in the thousands. BEcause they got runs going all everywhere. But here you only got about 3 or 4 little runs. And a few men working extra. There was about between 35 and 40 porters the many that we've had here. L Wereyouever involved in a strike? CB In a strike? Yeah. L What kind of strike where you involved in. CB Well,they had a strike in Denver, there. Oh, some years ago. And we would go in. See, they had a picketed -- we wouldn't picket, we just got off the car and go about our business. And when they got ready to take the tain out, they had to pull the train out so far away from the station and they'd bus us down there to get on the train and take it out. We wouldn't go thorugh the picket line. We wouldn't go in the depot and take a train now. They'd load--they'd take--an official would take the passenger train down there and load them up and bring them out and stop them and then they'd put their employees on. And then you can go on about your business. L Did youarer have a strike here. CB No. We never did strike here. L Didyou ever come close. Clarencer Beridon 5-6(9)-83 p.27 CB Well, they were talking about it. But it didn't ever materialize. L Why wer cyou 1a lking about it. Give me some ideas. . issues CB Well, bey wanted different that they cou!'dn't settle on. And they wanted to strike like maybe show them how it worked. Better insurance or something like that. You know, they couldn't agree w well, then they threatened to strike. on it, you know. Sometimes they'd win; sometimes they'd lose. L Did it work against you that you only had a small districthere? CB No, it didn't bother us too bad because we were covered by the other districts. See, we were part of the laws of the San Francisco. See, you see, you'd take El Paso, Texas, Salt Lake City, Portland, Seattle, San Francisco and Oakland, Los Angelos. See, we were all in one unit. Western Union. L This is all the western uniion. CB Yes, and we were all in one and one force. Andone man down, a fellow named Dellums, another man inSan Francisco. HE was over the whole thing. He was what they call the zone superintendanet. Dell urns D-E-L-L-U-M-S, Dellums. L He was a zone superintendent. CB YEs, and he was president of this zone, vice president of the zone. Randall. See, he was president of the whole country. All of us. L Yea. so now if you went on strike, did the whole western sector go on strike or just a certain-- CB No, the whole thing would go on strike if we went on strike. As I say, we was all under one union. Salt Lake couldn't go on strike and San Francisco woulcbe working, see. If Salt Lake went on strike, San Francisco would go on strike. the whole outfit would go on strike. L Bt you were never involved with a strike in particular. CB No, not really inparticular. Like, and things like that, we never was involved with. But we would not go through a picket line. Clarence Beridon 5-6-(9)-83 p.28 involved in that strike. See, when that strike would come up. We'd get communication from them, whoever is striking, is the same as the one that's striking. We'd get all the communication. What it was all about. When it was going to be. And all of that, see. So we knew when the strike was up, when the picket line was up. L LEt me ·ask you, did the union help you handle people's racism, when people would pick upon you because, because you were black and they would make an accusation. CB Oh, yes, yes. We had some of everything. See, this was a pretty big outfit, you know. The pullman outfit. That went all over the country. It was a pretty big outfit. L Did you--did you see any change in the way white people treated you over time. Were you able to see changes in that. CB Did I see changes in it. L Wereyou able to see changes inthe way white people and blacks got along. On the train. CB Oh, yes. L Over time. CB Certainly. Yes. I've seen a lot of changes. L When wouldyou say it was the worst. What periods was it the worst? CB Well. In just going right back, !couldn't recall right now. It was all pretty bad - it's bad enough now. But it's nothing now like it used to be. I remember a time you couldn't go in one of these shows up here. And if someone would go in, you'd have to go way up--upstairs. balcony You know, the"- ----", they called it. They had to go up there. They wouldn't let you sit down there in the main floor. L Didyou ever try to sit down onthe main floor. CB Oh, we tried, yeah. But they'd tell you they wouldn't let you sit. They'd give you your money back [laughs] Yup. L Did you ever deal with the Mormons, Mr. Berdan, did you ever deal with them. 'i Clarence Beridon 5-6-(9)-83 p.29 CB Oh, yes, I had some very good friends with the Mormons. Now, I visited him yesterday. He's sick now. And I went down to see. We've got some nice Mormons and you've got some no-good Mormons. Just like everything else. Just like verything else. Now, some of them have been the best friend I have is Mormons. They live their life; I live mine. They don't bother me and I don't bother them. You know, so far as the religion with they want --They may be right. I don't know. I think i'm right. They think they're right. [laugsh! So what are we going to do--HAVE A WAR over to see who's right or wrong [chuckles] go ahead and No .••. You live the way you want; I'll/live the way I want. I had some nice., good mormon friends. L Were you ever-askedto join the church. CB Well, they sent some missionaries around here once or twice. I told them no. I says, I born and raised a Catholic and I intend to die one. You neer know, I said, I would't say I'm going to die one, but I intend to. I said, no, I wouldn't--wouldn't change. I've worked with them and went out with the youngsters alot of time. On the outing. They're just ·like verybody else. Just because they're Mormons, and-- and they're human beings. They're human just like anybody else. Now, I know one thing about them. They will take care of their people. Their poor people, they'll take care of them. I'll tell you, they won't let them go hungry. You know, when they first started this relief program around here, the Mormons take all care of all of their people. They wouldn't let them go on state relief. They're taking care of their people in1he church. They've got a big place. They own 7th Southand about 4th West. They go in there with truckloads.Bags of and fill up food, clot4es and take their, you know, fueir need. And they will take care of their people. My wife's brother joined the Mormon church. And they used to bring clothes back up there for the kids Bring food. And --you know? I've never seen nobody else do it. They--they they're good that way. xu·1n 1 ikA T c:~;r-1 · I stay I stay a believer. Now, the people Clarence Beridon 6-6-(9)-83 p.30 tell you, Oh, the Baptists are right. The Methodists are right. This and this right. I tell them, I don't any of them is right if you don't live right. I don't care what church you go to. You got to live the life. In order to be right. And church is not going to save you. You got to save yourself. Your life. Did you get any of thos pictures that guy was taking? [they discuss getting the pictures] L So .they never. So you were never tempted to join the church? That was never something that was-- CB Oh, no. I've never. And I.'venever had dealt with the church. I have been to their church, their service. Been to the Tabernacle. I've never been i nthe temple. And !don't think they'll ever let me in the temple. Only their ah- In that temple, you have to be a certain degree. Just like in lodges, you got to be a certain degree before you can go in that temple. Even if you're Mormon. All Mormons can't go in that temple. All Mormons go in the Tabernacle, over there where they have the organ recitals and things like that. But you don't go in the temple. No.pe. L What did you think about the way they treated the Blacks before the relvation. CB WEll, -they're just like the rest of them. They --they--they thought the black was something that shouldn't have never existed. But me thing, a black didn't put the black here. They were put here. By the same man that put them here. They were put there. They weren't put there on their own-their own accord. They didn't ask to come here. See, they didn't do that. No. But I don't regret the time I came along. The time that I seen .when I was a youngster. And when I was coming along an the change in the world. I'm glad I came along at this particular time. I could see the-the difference. in, I'd say, 40 or 50 years back from what it is today. Now, I used to -- I telling you all ~~~ ~ ~ ~ -~~~ this ~__you know this. I could go to the store. 10 or $15 dollars in mv oocket. Clarence Beridon 5-6-(9)-83 p.31 and I'd get so much groceries, I could-'t carry it. Now, I go to the little store with a fifty dollar bill and come out there with a/paper sack in each arm. And could have put more in there [laughs] And you know, I'm telling you the truth. Well, that's part of the change. Just like right here b this place. I'm by myself. I do very little cooking. But the month of --ah--ah March, my gas bill here was $61.00. All right, for the month of April, which we know was warmer than March, was $79.00. What ?OU going to do about it. You get to holldering and they come and then they come and cut your gas off. Then what you going to do. You got to pay it. You got to pay it. Well, I can say one thing: we need some leaders for the country. We need somebody to-- like old Franlin Roosevelt and the Kennedy boy. Somebody like that.Not Fred. These guys. Are. I don't know --they had what they call a ceiling on wages and prices and everythng, for awhile do you remember that? Why don't they have it now? , I'll tell you what you can do. You go to any grocery store and pick up a can of anything down there. A week later, go to that same store, that same can will be up 35 to 40 cents. You just try it sometime in a grocery store. Just bok at the prices. Jot it down. What the item was. Whatthe size of the can. Go back a week later and see for yourself, 15-20-30 cents. Yeah. L Doesthat hurt you alot. CB No, it don't hurt me. I mean, I have enough toge~ by. But whatabout the fellow that's got four or five little children. He's got to f.eed. He's got to have milk! He's got to have nourishing food! He's got to have that buse warm! Now, if I had some little kids around here, I'd have to have this house warmer than it is now. L It's pretty warm here. CB Well, it's comfortable now. But, I mean, to say, I'd keep it around 70 · degrees, cut it down about 65 at night. But it just goes to show you. Now, there's the people over there_, four in 1b.e family. The house is · twice as big as mine. Now, she's got to do all the wash and all that cookino t Clarence Beridon 5-6-(9)-83 p.32 and using gas. That gas bill is 15 to 18 dollars a month. Cheaper than mine here. L That sounds pretty strange. CB It not only sounds strange. It Estrange. And now they've asked him. The ~s people sked him for another raise. And they're going to get it. But if they have a price control on these things that would---but no somebody onthe head end up there got their hand out. Somebody getting paid off. L What are the changs that you've seen <Yer time make you -- that you're the most J:appy about • CB Well, it eems like the people are learning to live together. More peacefully. That they - they're not so much to be at one another's throat like they used tole, you know. And I know around here, across the street. They've got a key to my house. I got a key to theirs. I bet you I got a key to just about every house except the people next door, I don't know them too well, they just moved in. And they come in here. "I want· to see that same program." I got cable here and they don't have cable. And hey, when is theboxing? I certain nights, is boxing. I said, "I've got theball game tomorrow night, do you want to come and see it." "Yeah." I got my program there. e8~i on in here. IF I'm here, they come; if I'm not here, they a:>me watch it. So you see people like that: they're getting along better. But when you see people eveytime you open your door and you turn your back, you got tolock your door, you got to watch this, andyou got to watch that. And that's not living. That's just existing. That's not living at all. That's not what I call living. L You talk about people likeRoosevelt and the Kennedy boys as having made a difference. Did Martin Luther King make a difference for you. CB A great difference. Martin Luther King was the one who started the whole lot of this stuff. The March on Washinaton. All ~hns~ ~hinas_ M~r~in TJ1~hPr j ' Clarence Beridon 5-6-(9)-83 p.33 was the founder of it's like, people riding on the busses. And you got to go clean back to the back end of the bus. Now, what was all that for? L Did you have to do tha t here? CB Now, I never had to do that--never did do here. that I know of. I never did here. Well, \e went in and sit down and [no one] was bothered. But now, you :see, all of this thing now they-- I've seen a time. You think I'm lying,but I've seen a time in-in-in Dallas, Texas, where the yellow cab come, they wouldn't even pick a black man up. L Just went right by. CB You call and they see you are black, they'll drive01 by. Then you had to call over and find out where theblack cab company andyou call them, and they come pick you up. But, now things are all-- they don't exist anymore. Not that I kriow of. I go back down around in Texas and Oklahoma and in those places. I go around those places I used to go just to look and see if things are like they used to be. You don't see those things anymore. I've been down there where water fountain: the black people drink out of theblack fountain. It was clean, justlike the white, it was clean, but they had to be black. Andyou couldn't even use the Bell telephone down there that the white folk use. You use the black ohone. And they wouldn't even sell you a railroad ticket down there through the same window that they sold a white railroad ticket. You had to around there--they had a little hole in there. You go in there and wait your turn and go there and ask you what you want. I've seen all that. That's why I'm saying, I'm glad I came along the time I did. I could see I lived through it. I see what it was then and I could see what it was that I came along. It gets better and better and better. But speak of Martin Luther King: there's no one man I think in this coun-ry ever had more to do with the of the black race. Well, that was smart. Man, that man was-- Seepeople like that don't live long. Nn _ thAu rlnn 't- 1; ~T.o l ,"" ,....,..,. t.T'"' I 11 \.... -, .--..- - - - J-1- - - --- .. - .&- ,! - T ... - .L...1- - - - -,,.! -- - Clarence Beridon 5-6-(8)-83 p.34 in our time, anyway. L Why are you so sure. CB W--I just got a feeling we won't. I had -- I had a man, I heard him. speak many time. He knew he'd get killed. He knew that. "They're going to kill me." Just like Rand loph when he organized the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters. He said, "When I walk out that building today, somebody might shoot me donw. And I'm looking to be killed anytime." You see, when they're trying to do something, there's so many trying to keep you from doing it. Ah, they're going to give a guy 2 or 3 thousand dollars, you know, they'll blow your head off. Well. Are we about finished up now. L I'd like to ask you one more thing In terms of yourself as a person, what did somebody like Martin Luther King mean to you personally. CB He meant a great--great leader. In fact, when Christ came on this earth, he was a great leader. Of course, I don't compare Martin Luther King to Christ. I don't believe in saying that, you know but in this modern time, to I don't believer there's another ~ader in this whole world compare with him. If he just had about 10 or 20 more years to go, you'd rave seen a whole lot ore changes. And although he had children, there'll never beanother Martin Lut~er King. His father was a minister, but he wasn't a Martin Luther King, Jr. It was just seeing him, it was a gift! It was a gift. The man was gifted. Yeah, I could sit down all night long, listening to that man talk. And never bat an eye.Never get sleepy or nothing. And another guy could get up there and talk and as soon as he'd say a few words I'm [hahal going to take a nap. But that - there's just something about him. L What can a good leader do? When youtalk about somebody as being a leader? What can this peson do that others can't do? CB It --it probably I you may say he's gifted, I don't know. Youcan take some people, I don't care how hard they try, they'd never make a leader. And to be a good leader,you got to have some good followers. Somebody to Clarence Beridon 5-6(9)-83 p.35 follow you up, youknow. Keep pushing you ahead. But the - you take You take even Washington. You had some men right there in Washington that fought Martin Luther King and just. They had and some of those southerners down there. Now, I'll ask you this question. This man that killed Martin Luther King. It was proved the man hadn't had a I job for years. Where did he get all thatrroneyto fly all the way from I a foreign country. And he was living inthe one of the highest priced i hotels over there. Where did he get that money? Did you ever stop to think about that? He had to have money to do that. He had to have money toget out of the state. Out of the country. He got out. Flew out and when they found him, he was staying in one of the big hi­hotels They don't keep youfg6thing in those places. They don't let you ride those airplanes from country to country for nothing. See, that man was given that money. Who give it to him? He was given that money. And when they got through checking up on him, that hadn't worked for 4 or 5 years. Oh, he worked 2 or 3 weeks here and there, you know. But he never had nothing. Just one of those guys. L One of those guys who could pull 1be trigger obviously. There's a lot of people like that, you know. CB Alot of people! Like hat! You offer maybe 40 or 50 thousand dollars: you kill this man, you get rid of this man. Oh, that money look good! He didn't think about the time, like he is now, cooped up in the penitentionary some • He didn't think about that. He didn't think about his self. Just like the guy getting hot headed and going up there and killingsomebody and they don't think about what's going to happen to them. They know they're going to get caught. They know it. Spend the rest~of your life in jail. That's just like the guy they got here now for killing this girl. Had two little babies or something, over there. I don't know. You know, sometimes I get to talking and-and-it I s it's rousing me up and I get mad~ So I'll just quit talking about it. Clarence Beridon 5-6-(9)-83 p.36 No, he didn't think when he was murdering that girl. Now, he want them to kill him to keep him from spending his life in prison. But that isn't it. Do you know why they want to kill him. That he want them to kill him? So they won't kill him in the penitentiary. They'll kill him. And - if I was in there, I would help them. I _really would. L Thatmight be true. He might die inthere. CB He will die in there and it's not going to be from old age. L But ther are alot of guys in the penitionary like him that don't die. CB Yea, I can't stand. Some of the system in this country I go along with and some I don't. I hear them two boys over there - in the Ogden, the hi f i case over there. ~·"Why, they' re spending all this money from the state feeding them guys like --whydi.dn't they kill them guys? Get them over out of the way. They killed those people in Ogden, didn't they? All right. Now, we're going to fight, going to pay these lawyers that will defend them. That are going to feed them and all that. I don't believe in that. L It's a good question why they don't do that. end of interview.