Interviews with African Americans in Utah, Howard Browne, Interview 4

Transcript (11 pages) of an interview by Leslie Kelen with Howard Browne on September 26, 1983. From Interviews with African Americans in Utah

Mr. Browne discusses civil rights, raising his children, thoughts on the L.D.S. church, and living in the western U.S..

3 3 - 7 17-// 19 :IT ~,,,{_,,,h ,1-?t../ . . u ¥ : ~ -,---ne~ ~ ~7 mY.g, ~ua ~d/rW Q~ . 4, ~ ti' Ill[_ A?e-aA!---:l~~-r~/ ~ 772~ ~ ~~~~ ·&n?°~~~ r~~~ ~..3': -rx a~~(fa-7~ 7':..-W-~~ ~~~ ~/'L-~L c--r. .•. ...-1: ~..-~ /-3 ;- 7 Howard Browne 9-26-83 HB They thought it was supposed to be distributed after they took theirs"··· L You were saying that the figure you had given before in terms of the monies that the court awarded you, in terms of the case against the railroad and against the Union wasn't the amount of money you wound up with- Could you explain? HB Pertaining to the settlement that we came to, the amount of monies that I quoted earlier in the transcript doesn't mean that that's the amount of money that we received. The origianl agreement between our lawyers and ourselves was that the lawyers would get 2/3rds of thereabouts of whatever settlement we came to, if we should win this case. In the event that we would lose the case, it wouldnt cost us anything. So. The agreement that we came to doesn't mean that we as the L Defendents-~ HB No, we weren't defendants. L I'm sorry, you were plaintiffs. HB We as the plaintiffs actually didn't receive what might be considered in this settlement as {pause} the actual amount divided between we the plaintiffs. L How many of you were there? HB There were about 10 of us- L What was the amount of money that finally did get divided? HB The actual settlement was around 140-or 150 thousand dollars. 2/3rds of that to the lawyers and the rest divided amongst the 8 or ten plaintiffs. Now the actual figures, I don't want to quote. L Can I ask whv? Howard Browne 9-26-83 s1:2 HB Well, because if this tape is played somewhere, it might be that whoever would hear this tape would think that we got rich off of this deal, which we don't think we even got ~id off enough. L It doesn't sound likeyou did- You had to give up 2/3rds of that money, it doesn't sound like you got much at all. HB No. And I don't want that-- I don't want people to think that we did get a whole lot of money because we didn't. L You obviously didn't. But, ah. It soundslike you're a little bit am~ivalent in feeling about what you deserve. I mean, as if you're afraid to say you deserved. HS No, I'm not afraid to just declare that I think we deserved more money because I think we shouldhave been paid 2 or 3 times more than what we got. But we were afraid- We were afraid to persue it so we came to an agreement. We were afraid to persue it because we knew that big companies could prolong the legal aspects of the thing. They could appeal and appeal and appeal. And we as a group of 8 or 10 people couldn't fight these big companies and these big unions. L You know, in looking back at the case, one thing I'm curious about is how come the railroad and the union11.ere defendants together? HB They were defendants together because when we filed the suit,we filed it against both of them becuase both of them had been unjust to us- Both of them had treated us unfairly. And the union and the company, as far as _ we were concerned, they worked together. L One really permitting the other to go on with what they . did- Howard Browne 9-26-83 s1:3 HB Yes. So. We filed a suit against both of them because both of them had done us wrong. L Is the railroad, as you look back on it, over the years, is it a pretty bigoted railroad in terms of its dealings? HB AH. Racially, years ago, it was bigoted becuase therewere just certain jobs that the railroad would hire Black people to do. And that was porters, waiters, cooks, and janitors. L So how long would you say, would you estimate, this hiring system lasted, to what year? HB This system lasted until atleast 1955 when the Supreme Court handed down the decision against the Unions that auxiliary unions were unconstitutional. L Exceuse me, was that 55 or 65. HB 55. L 55? HB 55 or 56. And then in 1964, 65, whythen they handed down this civil ·rights decision. But in 55 or 56, the supreme court declared auxiliary unions -- auxiliaries within a union were unconstitutional. So, between that time and 65, the union and the union-Pacific had to decide what they wanted to do with us --with their Black personnel. within the union, the Brother hood of railway clerks. L How did they go about that process of trying to decide what to do with you guys? HB Well, like Isaid, we had this meeting.,p at State Capitol with the Union that sent representatives from Cincinatti and the Union Pacific that sent their representatives from Omaha and with the representatives of the Redcaps, that met up at the State Capitol. And sith the representa­tive that was sent out bv the Civil Riqhts Commission Howard Browne 9-26-83 s1:4 of the Afofl-CIO, George Meeny. He sent a representa­tive rut here. And they drew up this deal where they couldn't put us on the big roster but they would put us atthe bottom of that big roster, in a group, with our seniooity according to ourseniority as redcaps, whicever redcap was the oldest, he wouldbe the highest in seniorirty and on down. And then our seniority wouldstart accumulating from that date on the big roster. But at that point, we weren't able to use our seniority from the date that we were hired to bump into any - to bump any white person off of their job if we had more seniority. And while it was explained to us up there, that while this wouldn't benefit theolder members, it wouldbenefit the younger members of this auxiliary be­cause they wouldbe accumulating seniority on the big roster from that date. So. myself and Jake Green as representatives of the Redcaps resented this and thought it was unfair be­cause we thought we should have our seniority from the date thatwe were hired.a And that was the beginning of the filing of the complaint with the EEOC to bring suit against both Railroad and Union. L What year did the meeting you described take place? HB It was about 1964 or 65. L so they waited from 56 to 64 to decide? HB To decide what to do with us? L What happen3ed during that 8 year period? What were they doing? HB Well, I don't know what they were doing, but "we" were in the same capacity that we had always been in. L So they didn't change you at all? Hw~H wa -d Browne 9-26-83 s1:5 HS No- We just kept th1 same jobs that we had. But we couldn't-- we couldn't bid in on any other job. L So ~ey were really giving you guys a complete run-around. HB Oh, yeah. L Made you wait an 8 year period and then when ~e 8 year period was up, they still put you pretty much in the same position you were in all along. HB But ah-- L For the ~rpose of HB --between 55 and 65, why we didn't know what was going on, but later we realised that during that period of time , since this decision that was made in 1955, that auxiliary unions were unconstitutional, we realised that during that period that the Union and the Union-Pacific had to get together to find out what they wanted to do with us. But we didn't know anything about what was going on. L How did you.get information from the Union Pacific or the other union. How would you--if you wanted to go to somebody and say, what are you guys thinking about. What are guys planning? How wouldyou do that? HB Well, the proper procedure wouldhave been to go to the general chairman of the Brotherhood of Railway Clerks or his representative which was here in Salt Lake and try to find out form h~m what was going m, but we had no idea what was going on. And during this time, why, they were also planning on cuttingcut thepassenger train service which we wouldjust get hints of at time, every once in a while from someone. But we had no idea that the passenger train service was going out of existence. So, we just styaedon our job and did thebest we could. Howard Browne 9-26-83 s1:6 HB Because that was the way we were hired. We were hired as --as Redcaps. And we were satisfied with our job. L Sounds like a hard way to work. Keeps you in the dark most of the time. Were the other Redcaps - I'm assuming, like yourself, were they as disturbed by the policies of the other union. Or were you a more angry minority within the Redcaps. Did you have to convince people, is what I'm saying, to fight? HB Ah, my fight, really - mostly was to keep the job that I had. Because they also had a system there where we couldn't bump any white person off of their job. Likewise, a white person couldn't bump us off our job. They IDuldn't get into our auxiliary. Andwe couldn't get into the big union. So that was all right with us. We didn't care about that because actually, I don't think we aspired to any of tho-- the white people's job because we weren't familiar with it. And, we just wanted to protect our own position. L And yo~r own seniority HB Andour own seniority. L But in terms of suing. Was everybody in agreement to sue. Or didyou have to convince other people? HB No, everbody that was involved. All the Redcaps that were involved in this case, they were willing to pursue this. In ract, there was one Redcap that didn't have enough seniority to hold a Redcap job there at the Union Pacific hwen they started cuttingback and everything. So he got a job with the Rio Grande railroad. So he worked for the Rio Grande Railroad and worked extra for the Union Pacific when somEDf theoldermen wanted to lay offer something. And he was asked in the trial why he worked for the Rio Grande Railroad and didn't work for theUnion Pacific Howard Browne 9-26-83 s1:7 or pursue any other job at the Union Pacific. And his answer was, "I had to make aliving and I couldn't go to some kind of 'maybe' job. I had to know where I was." He said, "I couldn't take a chancea, maybe I'll have a job and maybe I won't have a job." Sothat was his response. L He was a youngerman? HB Yes. L Than the rest ofyou guy? HB Yeah L It's interesting. You said that the Redcaps, you know, didn't want the other jobs. Didn't aspire to them. But, after you won the case, you came back and you did request a different job. HB YEs. L How do you explain that. HB Well, I'll explain that in this way. We knew that we couldn't get one of those jobs. So we didn't aspire to them. But, when we got our seniroirty from the date that we were hired and that we could bump -- We wanted to show them that we couldhandle those jobs. That we had just as much smarts as anybody else. L Cause that's what they were saying during the trial. HB Yes. L Thatthe reason they didn't let you have it-- HB Because myself, I went to the University of Kansas but yet and still, I was a Redcap down there handling baggage. So if I went to the University of Kansas as a pre-med student, I should have been able to handle some of those jobs. Howard Browne 9-26-83 s1:8 L Sothat's why you requested that job afterwards. Do you feel angry looking back that you didn't go through fue college carrer, that you weren't permitted that somehow. HB Well, I have--I haven't been angry. I--have been disappointed that I came through that period of time which was the Depression. I had two uncles and a grandfather that were medical doctors. And I wanted to be a doctor. And my grand­father had died. And my two uncles were just coming out of medical school at the University of Kansas. And Howard University . And they weren't established and they muldn't help me. so, I just had to quit. And a,e of my uncles. When he got esta-lished, why he became Super­intendent of the Tuberculosis Hospital in Alexandria, Arkansas. And he built it up. Butat that time, I had been out of school so long and was raising my family so I didn't go back to school. L You mean, he asked you if you wanted to go back? HB No, he never asked me if I wanted to go back because I lost contact with most of my relatives when I came back-­came out here to Utah. L You mentioned thatyou had kind of a break. HB Ahuh. L So you were pretty much gone on your own all fuose years? You know, when youtalk about this whole job situation and the strike. I hear a lot of, you know, frustration in your voice that whites couldn't recognize that Blacks could do this work. Itwasn't that much. HB I didn't understand--- L ---um--was one of the things that made you angry and made dealing with whites so hard was the fact that they Howard Browne 9-26-83 s1:9 assume taht you guys could do so little. That they had put you so far down. HB Idon't think that white people assumed that Black people couldn't handle certain jobs. But, my feeling is that ft was against the system. According to the system, why, Black people weren't supposed to have certain jobs. And weren't supposed to come above a certain level. In other words, the way Ihave always assessed this thing and I've told many people this, that it's justlike climbing a ladder. White people have a certain rung on the ladder which is at the top. And before they release a run of the ladder to a Black person, they're going to another rung and then you can come up to the next one. And then they'll go to the next one higher and then you can come up to the next one. But never can you get m the same rung that they're on! If you understand what I'm NOw, that's. my assessment. L Thzt's what you've seen throughout your life. HB Ahuh. L You know, last time, when my tape went bad, :you were telling a story. I wonder if you'd retell that story again. It was about this white man you worked with who was a super­visor, I think. He was a friend of yours and he intervened hwen you had a fight--when somebody called youa name. Um. Do youremember? HB Oh, this is with that conductor? L Yes, will you retell that story? HB Well, bis conductor was a very good friend of -ours, we thought. And maybe he was- We had been out to his home to parties and different things. And he was a conductor Howard BRowne 9-26-83 s1:10 on the railroad. But he had a brakeman that was a bigot. But I neverhad any run-ins with him before. But, I knew he was a bigot. I knew he didn't like Blacks. And I didn't care about him. But, this particular day, I had some Black passengers to put on the train. And it was during the war years when seats for civilians were hard to find. And if there were any seats in the couches for civilians, they tried to put them in hot car that - and a hot car was an old coach that they were using that didn't have air conditio' ning in. But they did have air conditioned coaches. And if there were any seats available in the air conditioned cars, why, we couldput passengers in there. And I had this Black couple from back East that was going to Los Angelos and they asked me to handle their luggage. And I explained to them that! would go down and try to findthem a seat in thear conditioned car. And I would wait for them to come down and shbwfuem their seat because I would have to stay there and hold their seat for them. So theycame down and this ~akeman, when they told him where they were going, he directed them to the left, which would be in the hot car and I had them a seat in the air conditioned car. So, I was standing in the vestibule and I told them I had their seat in the car to the right rather than the one to the left. Sothey started on in there and this brakeman hallo red at them and told them, I toldyou to go to the left! And they told the brakeman well, the Redcap says our baggage is in this car. So we're going where our baggage is. So they cameo in and I showed them their seats. And as I was coming wt, why, the brakeman was talking to someone and said, 'these damn niqqer redcaps, thev think they own this railroad! Howard Browne 9-26-83 s1:11 They do--try to do whatever they want to do-" So, Icame on out of the car. And went over to the track where they had brakeshoes laying along the track. To put new brakeshoes on cars that needed them. And I picked up one of the brakeshoes and came Oler to him. And told him to repeat that remark- That he had just made. About 'nigger redcaps' I said, "You repeat it and I'll take this brakeshoe and knock your brains out." And he never repeated it. But at that time the conductor that I thought was my good friend. He came up and asked what the problem was. And I explained it to him-And instead of him saying anything to the brakeman, he ~rned around to me and said, Now, Howard, let's not have any trouble here. And I felt very badly about it. Because I thought to myself that he should have said something to the brakeman as well as myself. If he was going to try to resolve the thing, he shouldhave questioned both of us and tried to find ~t what the trouble was. But he didn't do that. And I felt very badly. L And you felt that he had really been your close friend. HB I felt that he was one of my closest white friends that I'd ever had. And since that time, why, I -- I really honestly think that I have come to the point where I don't trust any white person completely. L In that same intimate way. HB AHuh. L That!s kind~ sad, you know. Let me ask you. Did you ever have a chance to bring it up to him. Or would you? WOuld he understand? HB Actually, I never had any close contact with him after Howard Browne 9-26-83 s1:12 that. And then, finally, he died. His wife died. And his son died. And~ were friendly with all of them. All of his friends. L Why did that - fromthat incident on, what about that incident made it harder to trust white people generally. What did you learn from ~at. Or what did you think you learned from that? HB Well, what !learned fromthat was maybe -it would probably be psychological problem. All during my life, I think that I had been mistreated by white people. I had been shoved into the back all the time. And then when I came in contact with a white person that really treated me like a human being, and as an equal, it was quite a change from my past. And then when I thought he let me down, why, it had quite an impact on me. If that answers it. L Yeah. {softly} HB Now, Ihad had white people before that treated me as well as I couldbe expected to be treated by anyone but I didn't consider a close relationship with them like I did this man. L From ~at incident on, did he stay away from you too or did you just stay away from him? HB Well, we had no occasion to come together after that very closely because like I said, it was during the war y years and I don't know how long after that why he died. And ·thenhis wife died. But! would see his son every once in a while- He was a conductor on the rialroad. He was a brakeman. And then he got to be a conductor. Well, I never had too close a relationship with him but we knew one Howard Browne 9-26-83 s1:13 another and we were friendly to each other because of the family, I imagine- L Would yousay over the years in terms of the Black people you've known as friends, that having a good close white friend was unusual? In looking at thep?ople you've known? The black friends you've had. HB What is your question? L I'm trying to find out if your friends, your Black friends feel towards whitepeople in terms of distrust the same way you do? I mean, you guys talk about it. HB Well, that's kind of a hard question because I can't answer for other people. L I'm just saying in terms of discussion and talks about it. HB But Im pretty sure that any Black person that has come up here in the United States and that maybe had been here for a few years and came through those periods of time before civil rights acts and certain laws were passed, I'm sure that there's no Black person in the United States that hasnt come up against this prejudice and hatred and racism and things that I came upi:to. And I'm sure that most of them had some resentment even though they knew they had to take it. But I don't think they liked it. But can't answer definitely one way or the other. L Maybe aether way of asking the question, is do you see a Black world and a white world? Do you see these two worlds? HB Well, I don't - I don't see these two worlds if I understand you correctly. L DoYou see that there are two worlds? A world in which pretty much Black people live and ~x with each other and whites mix Howard Browne 9-26-83 s1:14 HB , , with each other. And they don't get together. Yes. To a certain extent I do. Which I think is quite unfortunate. And I think it's going to change. My own personal belief is that God made man and I really don't believe that he made one man to be superior. One to be inferior. I think that we all belong to the human race and while m~ybe if they all get together and it's one good race and peace, why that wouldbe a utopia. But I don't look for that. ButI think there probably will be better understanding, better relationships between the races, at some time in the uture. L Do you see things having changed for your children? HB Yes, I see quite a bit of change for my children. My children are able to hold jobs that I couldn't hold- They're able to live places that years ago, I couldn't live. And, they're holding good jobs. So, I see quite a bit of changeinthat way. But what I'm concernedabout Now, actually, you belong to the white race. So, the way I'm talking to you, I'm letting my heart out to you becasue I'm revealing things that maybe I wo.u ldn't reveal to just anybody. You understand that. ~ut that off just a minute until I -- {break} end side one begin side two Howard Browne 9-26- 83 s2:15 HB Like I say, you are a member of the white race, so I'm revealing some things that I may not reveal to a whole lot of people. But you were asking me about conditions and things, did I think that things were better for ! I ' my children. And I do th1ngs that things are better for ; i my children and I think that generally, things are better for most minorities. But, what I'm afraid of and what I'm suspicious of is whether the white man really means what he is doing by passing these civil rights acts and things like that. Or whether he's just laying dormant for a certain period to see how things come out. And, then go back to his old ways and his old thinking. I'm trying to assess whether he's really sincere. And I'm really suspicious about it. Maybe because of the way that I was treated years ago. And, whether this --these laws that have been enacted are ckind of a supres-sent for a short period of time -- L You're saying maybe the heart hasn't changed . HB That's the way I feel. I feel like the white man is still a white man. L It's possible. So, why. HB I mean, I don't know whether you understand what I'm saying. L I understand what you're saying. I understand it from my own perspective. I don't. I certainly don't know what to say. Ah. When I said I see it from my own perspective, I see it from the perspective of being a Jew. And, of the Howard Browne 9-26-83 s2:16 enemies, the people that I fear. And, ah, my own suspicions. And I know what you're saying very well. And I don't know what the proof is. Because the possibility is always there. HB Ahuh. L And that's what you're really saying. Saying they can {phone rings} L How have you raised your children when you think about -when you think how you've raised your kids in terms of their attitudes towards white and their -- have you tried to make your kids understand what's happened with you, with your life? HB Yes, I've - We have tried to bring our children up in a Christian attitude because we feel like that we are Christians . We believe in God. And, we believe in treating people the best we can.Not do people wrong. But we've also taught our children· not to take any more than they have to from any white person. When they were children going to school, why, we taught them not to start a fight. But if they were involved, why give them the best they could. And, We didn't have to teach them. But we had to make them aware that they had an enemy out there. And someof our children, when they were going to grade school, they came in contact with teachers that ~ere prejudiced and racists. And we had to go down, fight their battles, with the teachers and stuff like that. L How did you do that? Howard Browne 9-26-83 s2:17 HB Well, my wife went on down to the school and confronted the teachers. There was one particular teacher that everyone of our children came to have problems with. And she had to go down there and confront this teacher. Well, she was going to holdone of our children back. Dean otor or him or which ever one it was. And so she had to go down there and see her and said, you'rerot going to hold this kid because she knows that he knows just as much as any of the other children in here and you're not going to hol dhim back. And so she didn't. But, it was a confrontation between the teacher and my wife. L Did--did you that? HB Yes, I stayed out of that. I didn't. The ~ly time that I confronted a teacher or principal, it was a principal, it was with my granddaughter. And, there was a racist teacher over there so I confronted the principal. I went over and confronted the principal and in fact they had an investigation and they brought a member of the school board to meet with me and the principal. And, I presented my side of it. And it happened that a member of the school board was a Mexican fellow and so he said he couldn't see where there was any racism involved. And that. So he took the side of the principal. So I told him, well, I hope it's not. But don't let this happen anymore. So it didn't. It didn't happen anymore L What had happened that made you go down there? HB I forget just what the incident was. Maybe my wife could recall- But. I can't remember. Howard Browne 9-26-83 s2:18 L You know. HS But it then involved several mifferent times and so I thoght it wasabout time that I should go over there and see about it. {interruption} L some of the ~ings that you told me, while I've been ralking to you about things that happened to youon the railroad and even before that Did you tell your kids about stuff like that when you-when they were growingup? HB Oh, yes, we've talked about it. We've talked about it. And I think everyone of our children - I think we have deall kind of a protective armor in each oneof them because non of them will take too much off of anyone. If they feel like they're being mistreated, they're going to express their opinion. They're not going to back up. And while also the teaching that we gave them not to mistreat someone else. Andnot to start something with someone else. I think, all of those things have been instilled into them. But also, they're not going to take too much- L Hmm. mmm. You know, it's so hard sometime listening to what you say. It just makes me shake my head. I wish I knew more of what made it happen. HB What made what happen? L What made whites act the way they have over this long period of time. What keeps it all going. HB Well, I guess one of the things that keepsit going, I guess white people have certain things they teach their children and justlike Blacks have certain things they teach their children. And both teachings are opposite of each other and there~ ·may be some middle ground but generally years ago, why most white ~ople had the same teaching: Blacks Howard Browne 9-26-83 s2:19 were inferior and they had - and they were supposed to be kept in a certain place which had been designated by the white community. And, if any Black person just presumed to get out of their place that they - that they had designated for them, why they would-- It was up to them to put them back in their place. L To the white. HB YEah. Put the Black people back in the place that they had designated for them. Don't presume that you can be as good as I am. Don't presume thatyou are equal to me. You have a certain place that we have designated for you and you ~ay in your place. L When the Civil Rights movement started b this country~ Martin King began to be recognized nationally. Were you surprised? Were you ready for that to happen? HB Was I ready for the Blacks to nske the showing that they did? I was wholeheartedly in favor of it- In fact, myoldest son. He went back to the march- L He went to the march on Washington? HB Ahuh. So that shows how he felt. I didn't go. But he went. HE went clear from Frisco back to participate in this. So that whole thing shows what the Black people felt about the conditions that they were in. That one--one thing illustrates that. And, also, it --it illustrated in a way one of the remarks that I made in one of the other tapes was that.I believe I made the remark in one of the other tapes that we knew as far as physical fighting was concerned, . why we wouldn't have a chance, so. We had to use the means of our disposal, to try to get some of the things that we thought we were entitled to. And this peaceful Howard Browne 9-26-83 s2:20 demonstration back in Washington - I hope and I think that it opened alot of white people's eyes about trying to get along together. And, like I was talking about that swimming pool. Set the example. Practice what you're preaching. L Yeah. You ~re ready for it, ah? Didyou partic-- HB I was ready for it way before that time, myself. L Did you participate in any of the NAACP work in ~e area here? HB Well, years ago, I participated in NAACP, but then I quit participating in it. But, ah, I did what I could in my own way. And my wife. Like, I think I quoted an incident where this particular white couple that I considered my real good friends. And two or three other white couples, why we got together to go to one of the shows. Down here n the afternoon. And we went in there and they - They had bought the tickets and we went in and sat down. And at that time why the matinees inthe afternoon, why, everyone was supposed in sit down downstairs. Because there wasn't that many people go to a matinee and they had the stairway chained off. So youcouldn't go up the stairs~ you know. And, so we all went in and sat down . . And the usher came to US• My wife and myself and told us that we would have to move. We wouldhave to go upstairs. So we told them, well, we have tickets for down here. Well, reagardless. You have to go upstairs. We said, well, that's chainedoff. They said, well, we'll take the chain down so you can get up stairs. So. We said, we~11 we're not goingup stairs, so you can just refund our money. Sothe white people that were with us, why, they~s9id, well, if they can't sit down here, we're not gooing Howard Browne 9-26-83 s2:21 to sit down. We'll all leave. Just give us our money. So we all left. But that was a policy. That Black people had to sit upstairs. They couldn't sit downstairs. So that was one way in a peaceful way we let them know that we resented it. And we wouldn't take it. And so we fought with the tools that we had. L It wouldhave been hard had I had been in your position for a young kid like this, I guess the ushers were young, weren't they? They were justkids? HB Ahuh. L Kid to come up to you and say well you've got to do such and such. HB Well, we think it was probably embarrassing to some of them. Because I imagine they didn't know just how to say it. And everything. But that was what they were told to do, SO• L You know, after r1Martin Luther King was assasinated, the movement. The Civil Rights Movement changed a great deal. And became mre angry. How did you feel about that. HB Well, I - I was angry also. And I was angry at bombing of that church down there, thatkilled those Black kids right in church. All of those things angered me. And I imagine at the time why my dealings and perspective with white people wasn't probably the way it should have been. I might have been more friendly toward a lot of white people that I knew if these things hadn't happened but when they did happen, why, I think I changed a little bit in my attitude towards people that were probably my friends. I didn't mistreat them or anything. But I mean, I might have been€a little cool to them. Howard Browne 9-26-83 s2:22 L You know, it's nice listening to you talk- You're a thoughtful man. Have you ever written any of your thoughts. HB No. L Have you ever wanted to? HB No. I haven't even considered it. ButI have been - huh - I have been told by several white people that I should write these things down- But, L At least now you have some of them on tape. HB I just dismissed it . In fact, there was a woman that workedon the bookmobile with me when Iwas working for the library. She said I should write all of these things down because we would get in discussions. Infact, she was on the bookmobile with me when the newscame over the radio that Martin Luther King had been assassinated. L Didyou take that hard, personally? HB Well, yes. I took it hard. But, actually, I don't think I took it any harder than I did when President Kennedy was assasinated. Because I thought he was a great man. And, I thoughtal.ot of him. And, I thought that possibly if he hadn't had been assasinated, I was rather anxious to see just what he would do. I felt like that he was going to do a whole lot about this race question. And I think whoever assasinated him deprived him of the opportunity of showing us what he would do. So I thought an awful lot of him. And also Martin Luther King. L Doyou remember the moment when you heard it? HB Ahuh. L - What was the moment like? HB Well, at first it just struck me as unbelievable. It took me a little while to realise and I just had to keep Howard Browne 9-26-83 s2:23 listening to the news report for it to really penetrate. L Didyou mmehome after that or did you continue to work? HB Oh, I continue-- I had to continue to work. But, it took several days for me to really realise that either one of these things had happened. Now, as far as President Kennedy was concerned, I said, my goodness, if they can ' kill one :iof their own. What can we expect? And then whenthey killed Martin Luther King, I said, well, ~at's what we can expect. Kill a white leader, why, it's no surprise to see them kill a Black person. L I hadnt thought about it that way. He was - he was a great hope, ~sn't he? Kennedy? He seemed so alive in those early years. HB Yeah, and he seemed to have so many progressive and revolutionary ideas. That he wasn't even even given a chance to get off the ground. L I remember thetitle of that book, you prbbably remember it. HB L The name of it, Johnny, We hardly knew you. REmember? It came out about Kennedy? No, I don't remember that. No. The one I r~member was So Many Days. It was a hundred and some days. Three yers. yeah. Did you - After Martin Luther King was killed, did you feel um any sense in which it was now more justified to be angry? ThaEom~yg, the thins that Martin Luther had stood for maybe died with him? Howard Browne 9-26-83 s2:24 Understand what I'm asking? HB No, not exactly. L You know, after King, After Reverend King, the Black PAnthers and Stokey Carmichael and alot of groups that were angry and the whole notion of Black power was seen differently. Did ~u agree with whatthey were feeling? And thinking? HB You meanthe Black Panthers and L In terms of their feeling that it was time to stop the non violent movements and time for Black people to learn to defend themselves. HB Well, Ihave always felt that Black people should defend themselevs tothe bestof their ability~ under certain circumstances. I don't howeverbelieve that Black Panthers and those were actually using the right tactics. Because the Black people, when it comes to revolution or something like that, they know that they're outnumbered ten to one. And they're just beating their heads against a stone wall because theycan't win. And, I think that the mind is greater than the sword. I think that you have got to try to outsmart your enemy. Not fight them. But whenit comes down to personal protection or something like that. I think every Black should try to protect himself in time of danger or somethingliek that :But I don't we should go out and instigate it. L How do ~u outsmart your enemy? HB Well, maybe you can't outsmart your enemy, but you've got j . a brain just like he's got a brain. And if he's trying to do you an injustice in some kind of way, why you try to Howard BRowne 9-26-83 s2:25 figure out some way to counteract this injustice . L You know, I'm thinking of Israel. I'm thinking that if they just depended upon outwitting the people that wanted to drive them into the ~a, they would have been driven into the sea. If they had to do other things as well. An-- HB But, in the case of Israel, Israel came through a whole lot of turmoil and everything. But, yet and still there were some brains behind the things that they did. L Oh, yeah. A lot. HB And then they got - quite a tit of outside help to go along with their thinking. Now, the Black people don't have that kindof help. Who--where would they go to get any help? What countries goingtohelp them. Where they're being persecutedin every country in the world Even in their own country~ they're being~rsecuted. Now, where they goingfor any help? But Israel did have outside help. They - they were able to get modern fighting equipment, planes andrissiles. And all that kindof thing. Hwereyouthink any Black person's going to get planes and amissile or something to fight with {they both laugh} L It's true. HB Now, I don't undersand the situation over there. In Israel, but, I have read a lot of books- I've read several books by Uris. And, I've read about persecutions that they've gone ~hrough. And that they were undthe English domination for awhile.And how they were done by Germany and Russia. -But, I also know that if there had been as many Blacks over in Germany as there were Jewish people, why, they wouldn't Howard Browne 9-26-83 s2:26 have hesitated to do the Blacks just the S3me way. Because they wouldn't have let one of our Olympic stars. They did't even want him to participate in the Olpymics overin Germany. And the Black person over in Germany, why he was just taboo because it was supposed to be all Aryan over there, you know. L Talking about Jessie Owens. HB Yeah, Jessie Owens ..... So I realise that the Jewish people have been persecuted and come through a whole lot of trouble. But I don't think they've come through any more than Black people and probably rot as much if Black people were over there~ that same situation. L Before you came, I was talking to your wife a little bit. And she was mentioning the revelation that the church had here. In 78. And, ah, she was saying that after the revelation, a lot of people came to her and askedher what she felt about it. HB Hmmm. L WHat was your reaction to the revelation? And its impact upon life here. HB Well, I just. As far as a revelation is concerned, ah, I just think it was a convenient revelation. And an economic deal. Ah, I don't really believe in revelations. I don't think it's up to the head of the church to have a revelation to decide the -the - the status of a certain race of people. I don't beleive in any relgion that picks out a certain people to segregate against and be prejudiced towards because that's not my idea of religion. Or christianity. Howard Browne 9-26-83 s2:27 Myattitude and my teaching is that all man were created equal. And one church and the fact of the matter, this wa was the only church that I know of that picked out a certain group of people to be prejudiced against. So the revelation didn't mean a thing to~- And as far as them--because he said he had this revelation, why, it didn't mean that I was going to flock down there to get into their church. I never had--never had any desire to get into their church. But I'm not-- I'm really not condemning their religion. If they believe in what they believe in, so be it. Just like Baptists or Methodists or whatever--whatever they- believe, go ahead andbelieve what you believe and let me believe what I want to believe. But don't singie me out tosay that I'm condemned to hell becuase Im not your color.or something. So. His revela­tion was all right. And it may have changed the attitudes of and the f~elingsof a lot of the membership of the church otwards black people which if it has woul ~ea good thing. But it's not having that much effect on me. L It did seem to take an awfully long time. 1978. Just a few years back. Hmm. Do you think, you know, as you look back on living here before the ~velation. Do you think the Mormon attitude has a lot to do with the way whites treated blacks here. Even whites that weren't a mamber of the church. HB Oh, I _definitely think that the church had quite a bit of influence on how the Blacks were treated. The fact -of the matter, why, this church runs the state. HAs influence potilically, religiously -- everything. Because I Howard Browne 9-26-83 s2:28 this is their state. So, actually, • they can dictate no matter how much they deny it, they can dictate. end side -three Howard Browne 9-26-83 s3 HB But what is really amazing to me is how a religious body founded in 1849 or 1839 or around about that period can comeout with a religion and say that their's is the only religion and the right religion. What's going to happen to all those religions from time eternity, way back? How can they come out in 1800 and something and say they're the ones that's right. L That's a good question. That's a good question. HB So that's one reason why I never paid too much attention. I studied their religion. I've gone through their doctrines and covenants. And their pearl of great pri L You have done that? HB Yes. L How come? HB Well- In fact, at one time, I was interested in various religions all over the world. How they thought and every-thing. Ros ins. And, like Mhatma Ghandi and ah ~~~~- the - what is that over in Egypt, the (optics. And Koran. No. L The Moslems. The Koran. HB The Koran and all that. I was just mterested in seeing how their religions kind a compare, a little bit. *I didn't go into it too deeply. but I was interested in knowing how they thought in their religions. And,But in none T.hat I of themlcoulc find,where they picked out any particular raceof people to condemn. Like the Mormons- Now, there maybe. L None that I know. HB None that I know of. And none that I could find. So, I mean, Howard Browne 9-26-83 s3:2 they belive in God and they belive in worshiping God the wax they wanted to worship God. But just becuase ~u are Black, becuase you are Yellow, because you're green, you condemn the hell- I never found that ... L I don't think there is from the ones you've been describing so far that's been selective. HB And even--even Japaense, and the Chinese--their religions. They worship oh, Ican't think of their names now -­Buddhism. Yeah. You don't find that. But it definitely-­In the Mormon religion years ago, that was definitely one of their things that was n their book- That Black people were condemned to hell. And until the revelation was made that relived them of this sin, and they claimed that there is no sin, that's the reason they're black because when Cain slew Able, ah, their color came black. And that was the mark that was put on them, their color. And actually, the bible does't say that. They said a mark was put on Cain's forehead so that people could recognize him and shun him as a murderer of his brother Able. They didn't say he turned him some different color. It says a mark wasplacedon his forehead. But Mormons say he turned Black. And that was a curse. That's the reason the Black peoplea areBlack, because they were cursed. And said until this curse isremoved, why, they're not eligible for the same things that white people are as far as going to heaven is that concern. L So it must have been really puzzling. I remmeber we spoke about it once breifly, about some of the Blacks that had joined the churc- here. Howard Browne 9-26-83 s3:3 HB Yeah. what do you call ~em, oh, what's that guy's name here, he used to be chief of police here. He wrote .,,.-, I 2 books. 2:> ,>' 0 v.,o •f 1yL wrote two books ah about it. The first thousand years, the second thousand years. And he goes into this race business quite a bit and boy he really talks about Black people. { 1 au g h s} C re OY) s k1 r t -.:.: ' I\ • H e w r O t e T he F i rs t T h Ou sand YEars and the Second Two Thousand Years. It's supposed to be {pause}. What do you call whenthey're explaining \Srious things. Not historian. But. L You mean a kind of essayist? HB No. No. One that deciphers - Supposed to be an authority on - L thebible? HB Not revelator but L You mean prophet? HB To say as an interpreter of the Mormon religion. L OK HB And that's what I think that Cleon Sk was called himself doing in these two books. The first two thousand years and the second two thousand years. Was interpreting the Mormon belief. L I know what you're saying. I had forgotten he was chief of police. HB Oh, yeah- He used to be an FBI first and then they made him chief of Police. L Mr. Browne, you were saying before you'd be open with me. How come? You being open with me and you were saying with other whites you are not. Howard Browne 9-26-83 s3:4 HB Well, I have a -- I think I told you before that I have a certain sensibility. I have a certain kind of reaction to certain people- Some times, it takes me quite a while to even kind of adjust to certain people- I try to weigh them out first. I don't usually form friends very easily, veyr fast. I know some people when they meet a person, why they're all gushy andeverything. But when I meet a person, I try to assess them in a certain extent and satisfy my mind. Now, with you, I don't know why but I didn't seem tohave this problem. Having to wait a certion period of time to kind of adjust myself to you, I don't know why it was. L I do the same thing that you do with people- I'm cautious just like you. HB so,that's the ~ly way I can answer that. L I'm grateful. Thankyou. HB I never - since the first day I met you, I never felt uncomfortable with you. You see. Now, that's not just with you or white people. Even with Black people, I don't go and wrap my arms around them right away. I got to feel them out a little bit. L It's funny, but, I really do exactlywiat you're describing and I get sometime a little worried about myself becuase I keep people at a distance. And! don't trust a lot of people. HB Well, that's me. {laughs} L Mywife is somewhat different and I sometimes wish I could be more at eas. HB Well, my wifeis too. She- she's quite a bit different. •• J Howard Browne 9-26-83 s3:5 She~kes friends easy. I don't. {laughs}. Cause I figure, well, I guess, actually I figure this way. A firend is something precious. And something that you should try to keep. So, don't try to buy a friend. Let him be a true friend. L Where is your son living now. HB Well, my oldest son is living in Frisco . Theone that went back to the march. And my younger son, he lives here. L Lives m town. HB YEah. L What does your son do? HB Well, he's been workingout at. Which one, theoldest one? L the one living in town. HB Theme living in town He's been working out to the Airport. As a - He's been working out there as a Skycap under this lease agreement or something. Some company hires men to work out at these various airlines. But they're not hired by the airline company. They're hired by th~s company and they supply them. But he got laid off here not long ago. And then he works on weekends down at the - That Center down on Fourth L The Central City Community Center. HB The Community center as a security guard- L The Central HB CEntral City yeah. L Community center. HB YEah. He works down there as a security gaurd several nights a week. When they're having parties and stuff liek that. Howard BRowne 9-26-83 s3:b L What's his name? HB Charles Browne. L Charles Browne. Did your kids get involved in the civil rights movement here? Did they participate in ways that you guys didn't? HB Well, actually, they never had any -- during their period when they were able to do anything, why, there wernen't any civil rights action-or civil rights movement going on here that I know of. And -- L How old areyour kids now. HB Well, my oldest son is so. But he, he went to West High School. He graduated from West High. But while he was at West High, why, he pariticpate din all the track, all the athletics. He was 01 the track team. And he was 01 the foot­ball team. And they elected him as vice present of the student body. L That'sHoward Browne, Jr. HB Yes. And, My daughtes. They&Jll went to West High. And they p~rticipated in the things that they wanted to participate in. And my granddaughter, which we raised, why she was in everything. In fact, she was on the--She was one of the cheerleaders. And everything. And then she went to -- Well, my youngest daughter, she went to the University of Utah and gather degree. My oldest son went three years. My granddaughter, she went to theUniversity of Utah. And then went to Wesminster and got her degree as practical nurse. And she was a nurse out here at St. Marks Hospital. And my oldest daughter, why, she - ah-I forget what they call her job. But she keeps track of_all of the supplies and buys allthe medicines and things for the ICU down at Howard Browne 9-26-83 s3:7 Childrens Hospital in San Francisco. L Intenseive car unit. HB Yes, intensive care unit. And my youngest daughter, she got her degree at the University of Utah and she is working in Social Services down in San Francisco. L What mde your kids Eave Utah? HB The job opportunities were a lot better elsewhere for Blacks. And the pay was a lot better. They all workedin ithe hospitals up herein Utah, but ah, one of them moved down there and told theothers about how things were down there. And what a cosmopolitan city it was and ever~thing and so. And then two of the rest of them went down there and they got jobs down there. L they like it more there than they did here? HB Yes. L But you stayed. You guys going tostay put here? ARe you staying put here? HB Well. As far as we know, we are. But you never know. Ifadl of our children move away from here. And, grandchildren, why we don't know what we ~ght do. We might move too if we were able. Willing and able. Cause my - my granddaughter and her husband and our great grandchldren. HE works for the government, so he thinks he might be transferred some­where. And if he has a choice of going, he's going to California. Cause he wants to go to California. Andif they leave, I don't know if we might too. There ~n't be anybody here. L Mr. Browne. I've askedyou alot of questions. Is there anything you've wanted to say in this interview thatyou didn't Howard BRowne 9-26-83 s3:8 get a chance to say. That! didn't ask you about. HB No. I think you've covered everything. PRetty thoroughly But the mlytinkg that! could iay ~at maybe you haven't asked me about maybe what I think about the country. You've asked me what I think about thepeople and stuff like that. But as far as the country is concerned. The land ~~we love it. We love this western part rf the country. The fact of the matter, my wife and r. I don't know of very many of these mountains and things that we haven't walked into or driven into. We know most of these mountains and valleys and things. Not really intimately. But we've been in them. Colorado. We've been pretty near all over Colorado. We've been pretty near all over Wyoming. And Montana. We just love the country. The lakes. The mountains. The vegetation. L Is there any time, time of the day thatyou love better. When you see it in a special light? HB Well. Not necessairly. Usually, probably in the middle of the day when we can see the flowers and the vegetation and things. Usualyl, in this western part of the country, when you'reup in themountains early in themorning, why, it's cold. Andyou don't want to be out in the cold. Not when you like the sunsets. L Yo've got a great view from your window. HB Yes. And usualyl inthe summer, this has been about the first summer that we haven't spent a lot of time out there becuase the wife was m the hospital and sickness. · But usually, in the evenings, we · sit out on the front until it gets too chilly. The breeze comes down through Howard BRowne 9-26-83 s3:9 PArley's Canyon, and it gets kind of cold - come right on out here. And then we look at the valley. And then we look at the planes coming in and the lights in the valley an- we enjoy it. L~ thosemountains are so close to you. Outside- They really are right there. Great big presences. HB Yesterday, why, we went way up on the other side of Mirror LAke. My grandson and his wife. My granddaughter- Why, we wanted to get a load of fire wood, so they took the truck and we drove the car. And we went up there and got a load of firewood and we enjoyed that. Being -the first time we had really been out like that this summer. But--we enjoy those kinds of things. So I guess thats about all hat I know of. I don't of anything else to talk about. L Let me ask you one more thing about the land. Isthere one particular area of land you care for more than others? One place that's meant something to you? HB Well, there was one place that really meant quite a bit to me . And that was a place we had out from Glenwood Springs. We had 320 acres of ground. Up in the mountains. And deer and elk- Would come down and graze in the pasture there. But I never got to live up there very long. I'd go up there in the summer for awhile- My Dad and my real Dad and my mother and my step dad, they bought this place up there. And of course, when-it was in my mother's name and my father's name. And when she died, why, her half was left to my brother and my stepfather and myself. Howard Browne 9-26-83 s3:10 And then my father gave me and my brother the other half. But, I really love that place but I couldn't keep it. It was during Depressionand so many debts and eveP.ything and I had this place down in (Arbon County, CArbonville. And, it was heavily mortgaged and in order to save the place down here, why, we sold the place--we GAVE the place away out there in Glendwood Springs to save this place. L Hmm. HB Yea. I think we sold it, scld that place up there, Glenwood Springs ot a German dairyman. For around 700 dollars. 320 acres. And I've been back there several times on oyr way to Kansas or something because I have such alove for that place. And~e last time we went through there, why, whoever had bought it had found acoal mine on the place. And they were hauling coal out of there. And it just made me sick. L Tha's a large piece of land, boy. HB AHuh. It was beautiful. But it had, oh, I don't know how many different big springs that was just gushing out of the mountain, with flows that big around, go down to the steam down in c~nyon there. And then it had a little lake on the place and all kinds of nice trees. And I went up there one year and - One summer and planted potatoes for seed potatoes. Why, Iguess I planted about an acre. Raised some nice potatos. And brought them down to CArbonville with a great big truckload of them. And I thought the grocers would buy potatos in a minute, you know. Wouldn't buy my potatos until after they bought all the white people potatoes. And then I got rid of mine at the price they wanted to give me. {half-laugh} So ~at was the last venture Howard BRowne 9-26-83 s3:11 I made in potatoes. L What year did you sell the land? HB I think it was about 19 1939 or 1940, around the time my oother died. She died in 1940. And I think it was just before she died that I - well, itmight have been after she died that I got rid of it. About 1941. L Well- thankyou. H8 OK. HB Well,I still say, treat that deal about that money propositon with discretion. L Well, I think we pretty muchstraightened it out, what you said, butI can leave it out too. H8 Well, I'll leave it at your discretion-- L I'm certain~o one is going to think you got rich, believe me, off of that deal. Giving away 2/3rds - 2/3rds going to the attornies. HB Now, I tried getting in touch with this Jake Green, as you know, cause you were here whenI called-- say that he would have him call me, but he never did. I never called back end to nm be ause I don't want to push it, if he got the message. Which I know he got the ~ssage and if he don't want to call, it's up to him.