Interviews with African Americans in Utah, Doris Fry

Transcript (34 pages) of an interview by Leslie Kelen with Doris Fry on March 31, 1984. From Interviews with African Americans in Utah

Mrs. Fry, who moved from Colorado to Utah, discusses prejudices in Utah, her membership in Calvary Baptist Church, activities at Liberty Park, the formation of the NAACP in Salt Lake City, Pullman Porters, and unionization.

Utah State Coalition of Senior Citizens Ethnic Oral History Programs 306 East 100 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84111 [phone] v~ INTERVIEW SHEET DATE Informant's Name Birth Date 4-1 Afq • c/ PLACE p,;..r zbJ~/ ,/fdl-1( 3_21:rA-...,.: A..e 7 .J:'kMd' ;z=;,~ ~h, /'9tM 4 Birthplace '!i;d/p, ~ ~~ Affiliation or Organization -------------------- Family Relationships -'------------------------ Informant s Occupation 1 Extended ---------------------Comments ------------------------ Tape Recording Made? Language of Recording Interviewer's Name Yes / No ---=------------------- {;,(I~:tA, L, ~j,/V Transl a tor (PLEASE USE ADDITIONAL SHEETS FOR EXTENDED INFORMATION) FOR OFFICE USE Date Received Tape Reel No. -~~- ~~~~~~~~--~~~-~~~~~~- Di spas iti on. of Tape ~--~~----~~~~~~~~~----------~~----Rough Draft Made By Date Proofed by Final Draft Made by Date Index Card No. No. of Pages Distribution of Copies I understand this interview will be placed in the Marriott Library for future use by students and scholars in relation to their research and scholarly publications and may be in the compilation of used a book on ethnic oral-history in the Greater Salt Lake area. Other cornmeQts: Si gned_.x.A~~_.:;;~·--"r,.~~.:;.,;,,. /4?:-;...__-_ __ Date_-=J~)~.3~ / +-/_P__,<-.?,,,__£ _ _ _ __ / 7 Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Interviewer: Leslie Side 1, p 1 L Your full name. DF My name is Doris Fry. I'll speak a little louder. L If you can, yeah, that would be great. DF Alright. Doris Fry and I live in Seattle, Washington presently but I'm visiting here taking care of my brother until he's recovered. L Would you give me your date of birth and place of birth. DF I was born in Pueblo, Colorado in 1906 and we lived in Pueblo, then we moved from there to a smaller place called Swink, Colorado and we lived there until I was about six years old. moved to Salt Lake City. And in 1913 we I had my sixth birthday here. And that was in the summer in 1913 and that fall I started to school, at the old Fremont School on 4th West. I had my first real taste of prej- udice and discrimination to Black people when I first started to school in Salt Lake City in the first grade. L What happened? DF Well, the children were prejudiced. They called us names. didn't take kindly to Black people. We were called negroes then. We call ourselves Black now. against. They But the negroes were discriminated In fact this was predominantly a Mormon city. A Mormon state and the Mormons did not believe Black were quite human. not supposed to have souls. We're We were never supposed to go to heaven. If they were Mormons they could belong to the Mormon Church but they could never enter and hold a priesthood because they were cursed by their Blackness and that was taught to their children and they used that against us. And having lived in a small town where we were the only Black people, but people were farmers and all and they were very kind to one another and when we came here it was so different. One of the things that stood out and has still remained Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 1, p 2 in my mind was an incident in school on Valentine's Day. time first and then on Valentine's Day. Christmas At Christmas time we were taught to make little articles of some sort. We'd cut out paper and things and make things, make cards to bring home to our mothers. That was not so bad. But on Valentine's Day we had Valentine boxes in school and everyone could bring valentines and put them in the boxes for their friends. And I had no friends. ,children didn't play with us. Because the White But we made valentines in school also and I can remember very clearly, we had red paper to cut our red hearts out of and we could write something on them and then the teacher said, "If you want to send the valentine to a friend, you may or you can put your name on it and on Valentine's Day we will draw them out of the box and you'll receive your valentines and you can take them home. All the children's names were called but mine. Until they came to my own valentine and I got my valentine. Then the box was empty, then the teacher stood up in front of the classroom and she had a valentine for every child in the room except for me. She called everybody's name and everyone went up and got a valentine from the teacher except me. And she could see the hurt in my face so she turned her back to the class and started writing on the blackboard. I suppose all this sorts of things growing up year after year in school, being held back from doing a lot of things that the other children were allowed to do because I was different. It created a lot of hate in my heart. I'm sure I've overcome most of it, but there's still some there. L What a cruel thing, though, for the teacher. DF WEll, yes, but this went on from one class to the other. the teachers were more kind than others. Some of As we got older we could Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 1, p 3 take it a little better, you know. We could overlook a lot of thingf and we could--by then I guess maybe we were beginning to make friend~ too with some people. Some of the classes that we had. girls would be more friendly than others. Some of the And I recall vaguely having made a friend with a girl in my class who was a Swedish girl. They were immigrants from Sweden and just come to the United States and landed here in Utah. And because she wore different kinds of clothes, like they wore in Sweden, they made fun of her. But she arid I became friends and by the way she lives just about a block and a half from my brother here. years. We lost each other for many, many She got acquainted with my brother and told him that she knew me and so she came up to visit me when I came home on a vacation to visit my brother. again. So we've become reacquainted and we're friends Her name is Hilda Elzinga and I shall never forget her again because she was very kind and she says the same about me. was the only person who was kind to her. fun of her clothes or anything. That I Didn't tease her or make But we sort of had something in common because of our race, you know. And there were many incidents like this had happened to me, all through school until I got into high school. And of course, when I got into high school, uh, junior high school first, Mary Smith and Ruby Nathaniel, we were all girls together, almost the same age. And then I, of course, had my own friends and we all went to church together and Sunday School ' together and Young People's Meetings together and so it was much easier. L What church were you in? DF Baptist. L Was that Calvary? DF It was the Calvary Baptist Church. I was baptized in the old buildin Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 1, p 4 that was on 7th East and 3rd South.when I was thirteen years old. And then we had a much happier sort of childhood after that. were in our teens, you know. We All friends and we had our own crowds to associate with and so we didn't need the - of the racists. L Yeah. DF And well ••• L What do you remember - let me ask you about this same time period, about your home DF life. What was going on at .home for you? Well, we had a nice family life. We were very poor but we were always well fed and we were clothed and we always had a roof over our head. My father owned our house which made a nice way for us to get along. And having come from a large family because there had been twelve children in the family, we sort of had our own entertainment in games and things at home. L Do you remember any? DF Yes. My mother would play the piano. She wasn't an accomplished pianist but she could play and she'd play and we'd dance and we had a little old fashioned graphaphone. phonograph. This was a graphaphone, not a It was one that played the little cylinder records that slipped in over a sort of a handle and had a big horn on it. And we could play those and dance and we danced with our brothers and we danced with each other. The girls. so we had lots of company. (laugh) play casino. There were eight girls and And we'd play hearts and we'd Sometimes our father would join the games with us. And we'd play games like old maid, innocent card games, you know. L What was the attitude as you remember of your parents at that time toward the life in the area? DF Well, we didn't discuss it too much. I remember one time my father Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 1, p 5 said, "You shouldn't - don't be antagonijtic unless it's absolutely necessary for you to defend yourself. Don't go out and start fights but if the fight is brought to you, try to defend yourself. Because even then in a place like this you may even get the blame for these things,being Black." But he did not tell us to just take all of these things and abuses and discrimination and things without trying to defend ourselves. start fights. But he always taught us not to go out and And we didn't. L Really? OF I mean real fights. But we had lots of fights. They were not just this name calling but they would sometimes culminate in real fights and we had to defend ourselves because as ·long as someone thought they could beat up on you or whip you and you'd be cowed down, they wqµld do it. L Again and again? OF Oh, sometimes. year at school. It would happen maybe three or four or five times a Each year we'd go to a different class and we'd have to start all over again letting them know that we could protect ourselves, you know. Our father and mother were not people who were mean or ugly about anything. us because we had to live. ents. They took whatever it was that came to We had good parents. We had good par- They took care of us and tried to teach us, tried to educate us the best they could and we've had good results, good lives as a result of their teaching. life wasn't too bad. So we can't complain that way. Our home I was awfully glad when I moved away from Utah. I never liked Salt Lake City and I still don't like Salt Lake City. And I'm here because I'm needed but, uh, it just isn't the place I had much happiness in it. like it. I suppose that this is the reason I didn't Doris Steward Fry L 3-31-84 Side 1, p 6 What were your teenage years like? What did you and Ruby and Mary Smith do together? DF Well, we had house parties, you know, for this family or that family. We'd have parties for the youngsters and the children and we'd go from one place to another and then as we got a little older there were some bands, traveling bands that would come through Salt Lake and they would have dances and we were allowed sometimes to go to those dances and so we had a lot of fun that way. Then we had local bands occasionally that were organized here, you know. And they would play for organizations that wante9 to have a dance. And we could go to those dances. L Where were these dances held? DF Uh, sometimes at the YWCA. Do you remember? We could rent that for a dance and some- times they were in halls, public halls. I don't remember them and don't remember even the locations of them though now. Then our colored Masons had a building and they had a dance hall in there. And they could give dances there. We could have parties there if we wanted to rent it for parties. Well, we just grew up making our own forms of entertainment and pleasures, you know. And the boys that we grew up around here with. L Do you remember them? DF I remember some of their L Who were they? DF And a couple of them became quite famous. names. One was Eddie Toland, a famous runner, an Olympic marathon runner. L Eddie Toland? DF Eddie Toland was a marathon runner. Jesse Owens was famous. Along at the same time that Well, I guess Eddie Toland was before .•• Doris Steward Fry DF 3-31-84 Jesse Owens was also. Side 1, p 7 He was the one who became quite famous in Germany. L Yes. Berlin. DF Well, Eddie Toland came along about that time later on. grew up here in Salt Lake City. good friends. But he And Eddie Toland and I were very We never - we were not called boy and girl friends or anything like that but we were very good friends and he had a brother who played baseball then too. Hart Toland. And Hart Toland went with Mary Smith. L Sounds like you were a tight little world then? DF Yes, we were. There were not a good many of us and we just sort of were very close tight knit group of people. L Who were the other boys, do you remember? DF Oh, I remember, uh, Edgar Smith married Mary Smith. a good friend of Ed's. both Smith. They were not related but their names were Don Smith married Ruby Nathaniel. husband and then she later married Nathaniel. other boys. Don Smith was He was her first Uh, there were some The names leave me sometimes. L Did you get together with some of the Bankhead boys? DF Yes, we knew them all but they lived in the country and they didn't come in to town a lot. L So you didn't get together with those boys? DF Not so much. in town. Not quite as much as we did the bunch that lived right But they would come in occasionally and as they got a little older too and more up into their teen years they began to come in to town more too. I remember one boy, George Perkins. remember him and he had a brother. name," do you remember? I What was George Perkins' brother' Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 1, p 8 * It was Slim. DF Well, they called him Slim but I could never remember his name. * His first name was Huron. DF Huron, that's right. L And then there was that young man the other Perkins who was a boxer. DF Was he related to George and Huron Perkins? * Uh-huh. DF I don't believe I knew him. * You might not have. L He's the one that used to run with WilLey Price and Bobby Foster? DF Yeah. L I can't remember his first name. DF I don't believe I knew the one who was a boxer. L Yeah. DF I remember the Howell family. L Do you? DF Uh-huh. And ••• • There was Jay and Abby and Lucille and Edna and Glen. They were an old pioneer family, Mormon family and they came out in the early days with the Mormons. L Are these names you've just given me, are they all children? Are they all sons and daughters? DF These were the sons and daughters of Ab Howell. father. Ab Howell was the I can't remember the mother's name but if you read the book that Mary had, their names are in there because they were related to the Howells who are in that book. next youngest sister, Ardelle. L Ardelle? DF A-R-D-E-L-L-E. Glen Howell was married to my Doris Steward Fry L 3-31-84 Side 1, p 9 Where did you guys, I mean, if you wanted to go somewhere, you know, in Salt Lake at that time, where would you go? I mean, if you just wanted to go somewhere for the afternoon? OF Well, we could go to Liberty Park and they had a lake there and we could go boating. They had another park out, way out, a little farther out about 27th South and it was called Wandamere at one time. They had a dance pavilion and boating arid things like that. We could go to Saltair. it. (laugh) hills. We could go to Lagoon if we could afford And we'd have picnics and we'd go hiking in the We had lots of fun. L Did you have any favorite parks in Salt Lake at that time? OF Not particularly no. Liberty Park is not too far from here. We could walk over there and back in just a little while, you know. We'd take our lunches and have picnics there frequently. each other, you know. And meet Mary would bring a little basket of lunch and I would or maybe the boys and the girls would get together. The girls would bring the lunch and the boys would join us because we had the food. And we had lots of fun that way. And then we could bring baseballs. L Doesn't sound like they only joined you for the food? DF Well, I guess we did get a little more serious as time went on. We had a real good friend by the name of Albert Pile who was a West Indian. No, he was from South America, was he not? * Yeah. DF Albert Pile. British Guiana? He came here and worked for a very wealthy family. One of the Walker families. And my brother still hears from him. He lives in New York now but he still writes to my brother. L What do you remember about him? Doris Steward Fry DF 3-31-84 Side 1, p 10 Albert was a very fine cook. A very well educated young man. And he liked church work and he led our lessons in our young people's meetings at Calvary Baptist Church. He belonged there. liked Albert because he was lots of fun. we were like brothers and sisters to him. And we all And he liked us because And he always remembered my mother at Christmas , time with lovely baskets of fruit or some lovely gift of some kind. After church on Sunday nights we'd all congregate at my parents house right over here on this corner. DF This corner here where this little apartment is is where our old home stood. And after church on Sunday, nights all the young people would come out. They'd get on the street car and come out here. 0 And whatever food was left from our Sunday dinner on the Sunday afternoon was put on the table for us by my mother. She'd put it all out there. L That's nice. DF We'd just gather around and we'd finish up the Sunday dinner and we'd laugh and talk and then she'd send them home. ways one of the - in the crowd. Albert was al- And he loved my mother. We had a plum tree in our yard and my mother would can the plums and she'd make pies out of__, the plums and he called them cherry pies, but he loved her cherry pie. Lady Steward. (laugh) That was our family name, Steward, and he always called her Lady Steward. dad. And he always called my mother The other kids all called them mom and But he always called her Lady Steward. Later on, after I was married, he called me Lady Fry and he never called me by my first name anymore. L He and my husband were quite good friends too. You know I haven't - I didn't get a chance to ask Ed a lot about your mother. What was your mother like? I asked mostly about your · Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 1, p 11 father. OF Well, She was a very domestic person. did a lot of things. seems to me. She made our dresses. She She baked bread by the dozens of loaves it And she had a big family and she had to make do with whatever she had to work with, you know, in the way of meals, you know. And she always prepared a lot of bread and biscuits and cornbread and cakes and pies and things for us because she had to do the cooking. And she taught me to cook a lot of things. taught us all how to keep house and cook. She She joined - my father was a Mason and she was in the Order of Eastern Star. She liked that work very much and she liked her church work and she led the missionary society of the Calvary Baptist Church for a good many years. And very domestic docile sort of person. L You said docile? OF Uh-huh. I said she was docile. kind natured person. Bless your heart. She was a very She was kind to the people in the neighborhood. She was kind to her children. She was kind to their animals. Or any stray cat or dog that came along, she would feed it because she said he wouldn't be straying around if he wasn't hungry. (laugh) And the little White children in the neighborhood called her Grandma just like her grandchildren called her. Grandma. take them all in and feed them or whatever. And she'd She had one very, very . close neighbor down the street from us whose name was Mrs. Davis and she was sort of a motherly sort of person to us and we knew her family, knew her daughters quite well and she and my mother would exchange visits back and forth. L What kept your mom going? DF She did. Have real good times together. She sounds like she worked a lot. That's what kept her going I guess. I have known my mother Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 1, p 12 to sit up all night long sewing, trying to get our dresses made in time to wear to church on Christmas Eve to the church programs or Easter Sunday. She'd have to stay up all night sometimes to get some of those dresses finished but she'd have them done in time for us to wear them. She'd be sewing for weeks getting them ready. r But she'd have them done and then she'd have to comb our hair and those kinds of things. L How would she comb your hair? DF She would comb my hair and part it in the middle and braid it on each side and tie a ribbon on each braid for every day and on Sunday she'd always make my hair into ringlets and put a big bow on top. She did this for most of the girls. My older sisters then were, of course, old enough to sort of be independent. rather self sufficient and they were able to work. They were My older sister went to work in the family by the name of Critchlow, Dr. Critchlow. L What was your older sister's name? DF Ethel. L Ethel.· DF Uh-huh. Then she finally married and moved to Idaho to live. then my next oldest sister was Thelma. And She and I were married at the same - not the same time - but the same year. She was married to Mr. Berridan in January and I met my husband about the same time she met Mr. Berridan and she married in January and I married in April. L What year was that? DF 1929. lived. Tomorrow would have been my 54th or 55th anniversary if Ed Uh, my husband andher husband were both pullman porters. And they worked for the pullman service for a good many years. Then Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 1, p 13 my husband and I took a job as cook and butler-chauffeur in a private family. I was the cook and he was the chauffeur and butler. And so he left the railroad service but Mr. Berridan stayed until he retired from pullman service. L Yes. Before you talk about your husband, I'm curious if you remem- ber something. At the end of World War I or during World War I, there was supposed to be an event that took place in town here out of which the NAACP was reported to be born. clash or fight or riot. Something. Some kind of a Uh, in which your sister, Thelma, apparently got somehow connected. DF I don't really remember too much. I was quite _small. It's rather vague in my mind. I remember about it but I can't tell you very much about it. L What do you remember? DF It involved - at that time there were a good many soldiers at Fort • Douglas here and something was going on down town. something. I don't remember what. A parade or And, of course, the soldiers would come to town and they would get drunk and things like this would happen and I really can't tell you too much about this. ~ L I guess you would have been pretty young. At best, maybe. DF You'd be twelve at most. Eleven. At best, yes, because let's see, we moved to Salt Lake City in 1913 and we were involved in the war in 1918. L Until 1918, yeah. DF I was six when we moved here, 1918, 1906. old. L That's when the war ended. I couldn't have been very I knew something of it but I just don't remember too much. It's curious. Do you remember your sister, Thelma, or anybody talk- ing to you about the NAACP at all? Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 1, p 15 wherever he could get a group of enough people together as a group to organize them into organizations of the NAACP. them. He would organize And I think his name - I'm sure his name was White. don't remember his first name. meeting. But I He came here and held this mass Any negroes interested in organizing. L Did you attend the meetings? DF No, I was a little girl but I can remember the discussions and the talks that came up and they did organize. I don't know how long he stayed here but he got my father and my sister interested in getting it organized and then there was a Mr. B'urgis who lived here. was an oldtimer here. He He was interested in it and they all put their funds and their efforts together and got this organized. Uh, a man by the name of Mr. McSwine, who was a bondsman here in Salt Lake many years ago. Mr McSwine and Mr. Burgis and the Jacksons. Mr. Jackson, h~ was an old soldier, Sgt. Jackson. Those names were quite prominent in the organization of the NAACP here. my sister and my father. Along with I don't remember all of the names. But I do remember that many of them and it was well organized and well attended and they held it together. They've always, somehow or another, managed to keep the organization together here. As far as I know. L Was the mass meeting the same thing as the banquet? DF Well, that was before they had the banquet to get the finances together. They had a mass meeting to get the people together here for this Mr. White that I spoke of to tell them about the organization. L Where did they hold that? DF I don't remember. Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 L Was it in Calvary? OF It might have been. Side 1, p 16 But I really don't know. More than likely it was. L Who was the Reverend at that time, in Calvary? OF Reverend Harts. L Reverend Harts? OF Uh-huh. L Was he involved at all? OF Yes, yes, he was active in it. L H-A-R-T-S? OF Yes I think it was H-A~R-T-S. L So they had a mass meeting and then they had the banquet? OF Uh-huh. They had the mass meeting to get the people there, to get them interested in it, to explain what the organization was to be like and what it was for and what the purpose was. And then when people signed up for their names to be on the charter, then they had to have this banquet to raise enough money to get a charter and I don't remembe~ the price of a charter or what it entailed or anything but I do know they had this banquet for this. another thing that happened here. I remember It wasn't just the NAACP that was - you know for many years the pullman porters and the dining car leaders had no union and if they talked about forming a union they were fired. But there was a man by the name of Phillip Brend- off who went all over the country organizing the Black people into . I unions, especially the chair car porters and dining car waiters and the pullman porters. And I met him. And he came here and he held several meetings. I knew him. By that time I was grown, you know. And he was quite an organizer too and he came here and he organized Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 1, p 17 the pullman porters into a union. union here. Got them started within the Before that the pullman porters would maybe have to stay up on their feet and still wait for hours and hours before they could get any rest. There were no rules or no regulations. They just worked until they got back home ~ union then they had this protection. But after they got the But as sure as anyone found out that they were organizing or were interested in organizing a union, they were fired. And my husband's father was one of those men who lost his job because of this. dynamic. But I remember him being very Very, very dynamic man and the pullman company offered to buy him off, pay him off if he would just forget it. And he said, not "You know you sold my mother and my father but I'm/for sale." And so he kept right on until the very end of his life interested in these organizations. L Under what circumstances did you meet him here? DF I went to one of the meetings where he was speaking. someone to - Mr. Burgis got me acquainted with him. He had asked Mr. Burgis came to me and he said, "You do a little typing, don't you?" I said, "Yes, I can do a little typing but I can't take dictation." "Well," he said, "Mr. Randolph wanted someone to do some typing from some papers that he has to have copied. And I did these notes for him. And he'll give you the notes." And before I could get them all finished he had to come and get them and take them because he had been called back East again so I didn't get to finish them all. But he gave me a nice little sum of money for doing what I had done. And then he left but he was a very dynamic speaker. A very sincere hard-working person and I was quite impressed to know him. That was my real awakening to the intelligent people we had in our race Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 1, p 18 because we didn't get to meet them because we were sort of isolated here in Salt Lake City. We didn't get to meet a good many of them because they didn't come through here. If they came they went to larger cities and would go right on through to Los Angeles and places like that. Or stop somewhere else but I was quite impressed to meet him. L Where was the meeting held, do you remember? DF It was in a little hall somewhere. A lodge hall or someplace that they rented for this purpose and I don't remember. But it was not in the church. L What year was that? DF Oh, I was grown then. L Maybe about 1924, '25? DF Possibly. L You know, when you were in school and high school, what did you train for? DF How old were you? I was about eighteen, maybe nineteen. What were you hoping to do? Well, that's where I learned to type. in High School. In Junior High School and I was typing and I was just getting a general ed- ucation more than anything and I did not finish high school. L What were you looking to do? At that time? DF You didn't have much incentive to look forward to do very much if you stayed in Salt Lake City. some form of education. get to do. But all I knew was that I needed No matter what kind of work I would ever If I stayed here I would never be able to follow a trained program like a nurse or something like this, or some busi\ ness or something like that because they would not hire Black people. And so my idea mostly was just to get a good education, a general education. Some day maybe perhaps I'd be able to go on Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 1, p 19 farther or do better if I ever went away anywhere. L Did you think you would go away somewhere? DF I always dreamed that I'd leave Salt Lake City somehow or other if I ever got a chance to leave. L Did you dream about that? DF Uh-huh. City. There just had to be a place that was better than Salt Lake I didn't know how I'd ever get there or what kind of a place I'd find or where I would go because I didn't know very much about anyplace else but I always dreamed that someday there'd be some reason for me to leave Salt Lake City. And, of course, I didn't leave until during the depression but when I left I was - where I went - it was less prejudiced in some ways but there were no jobs to be had. And many times women could get jobs where men couldn't. But we left. away. My husband - by that time I was married and we went He had relatives in Washington so he came up to Washington and then he was here about three weeks and then I came up. just settled there. But I always somehow or another felt that I'd have to leave Salt Lake City. just die if I stayed here. like it. This would be a place where I would There was nothing for me here. I didn't like growing up here. I didn't like the atmosphere. anyway at all. I didn't like the town. I just didn't like Salt Lake City in I'm over the hatred but I'm not over the dislike I just don't like it here. L How would you have died? DF I would have just died. When I say died, I meant that I would never have amounted to anything if I stayed here. L I didn't I just had a real, real hatred for Salt Lake City and the people. of the city. And we You felt that your life would have been stopped? Doris Steward Fry DF 3-31=84 Side 1, p 20 - There was no reason to live if you stayed here. That was just my feeling. L When you think about the things that made you hate Salt Lake - you mentioned the incident·at school - what were some of the other things that you think about? DF Well ••• L Perhaps it's nothing specific, but I mean what were the kind of things you would think about? DF I would think about having to make a living when I was old enough to have to do it. a job. ~ There was nothing to get excited about getting You could get a maid's job maybe or something like this. But you just had no way in the world that you'd ever be hired to do any professional work, if you were a Negroe. City. The Negroes who have all these good jobs here now have all - this has all come about since World War II. cousin. Not in Salt Lake These jobs like my He's working for the Governor or something like this, you know. L Who is that? DF Henry Sexton. L Hmm. Yeah. DF These kinds of jobs were not available to Black people. sisters, Blanche, she was an expert typist. One of my She couldn't get a job. She went to Seattle eventually and she couldn't even get a job there then. They just won't hire Black people to do those kinds of things. That was just the way of life. to understand this. I don't suppose you'll ever be able It's a little hard to make you realize that this could happen. L But it did happen. You know you seem like a quiet lovely woman. Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 1, p 21 When I think that what you're describing, the intensity of feeling you're describing ••• DF Oh, I think there was a lot of rebellion in me that hasn't always come out. L That would make some more sense. There was no place to rebel around here. DF It didn't do much good if you did I don't suppose. L Were there any here? DF I don't know how my brother feels about his life here. survive better than girls could. Boys could All you could look forward to was growing up and getting married if you could find someone who could take care of you and marry you, you know, and support you and have a family. And hope that life would be better for them than it was for you. L What did it mean for you to be rebellious? What did that feel like to be rebellious? DF Well, I think the worse thing - the thing that I rebelled most against was the discrimination because of my race. of things. The unfairness It really : didn't make a lot of difference if they discriminated against you for you to protest because they didn't care anyway. L Are there any that rebelled here that you remember? DF Oh, no. Not like we did during the fifties and sixties when we had the marches and all that sort of thing. My rebellion was within me. And I know therewere many other young people that felt the same way. But maybe it didn't affect their lives as much as it seriously did mine. until I was an older woman. It wasn't like that. But I didn't get over this I finally had to fight within myself Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 to get over my hate. Side 1, p 22 Because hate can destroy you. that finally this - it's all over, you know. It's all over. I just felt Life is better now. You can be over it, be rid of it and work it out. And I think I've just about overcome most of it. I think there'll always be some •.• Side 2 L You said most of your hatred was what? OF Was directed toward White people. I h~ted them because they were so cruel to my race and I hated them because - and I just put them all in the same category that all White people hated Black people. They categorized us. All Black people were ignorant and lazy and shiftless and dirty and unkempt, you know. The attitude was just living freely and not caring to have anything and I categorized White people all of them being the same hating and discriminating against us and sometimes I feel right now that this is still the case. I guess they're over a lot of it and a lot of us have over- come a lot of prejudices and the hatred and the discrimination, but it's still there. It's just in a more subtle for~. L You said that the hatred, if you don't get rid of it, eats at you. DF It - does. L How does it do that? DF Uh, well, it made me hateful towards people and I had a sort of a - It destroys you. at times I was really kind of cruel. couldn't speak civilly to people. answer, you know. I hated them so much that I Many times. I always had a sharp I really can't describe it all to you. This is something that was within me and I have finally come to the realiza- Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 2, p 23 tion that I had to get over it because it was just too much for me. Then too, later on in my life, a lot of other things happened to us. Me and my husband that were good and I said, well, I real- ized that I was placing everybody in the same category, that everybody was not as mean as I thought they were. And so I had to fight within myself to get over some of the hate I had for them. 'Cause I wouldn't even allow people to be nice to me because I hated the race. I had that race hatred in me. So, I've overcome a lot of that. Some _of my worst enemies now are friends I guess. You could put it that way maybe and maybe they were not all that bad as I thought they were. Maybe they weren't the enemies I thought they were. L How did you fight with yourself to overcome it? What did you do? OF I did a lot of praying, a lot of talking to myself and just coming to the realization that you just shouldn't go through life hating all the time. No matter what happened to you, you could just fight it better if you didn't hate so much. L I don't see any hate in your heart as now. DF It isn't like it was. L How long ago did this change happen for you? DF Oh, I guess in the last thirty years. L So gradually? DF It's so much better now that I just feel as though I never had it. Most of the time. You seem so calm. I'm still working on it. So I think I've pretty much made my - reached my goal . now and I've reached the top of the hill as Martin Luther said, "I've reached the hill. through the top." L And looked over the top? I've reached the mountain, climbed Doris Steward Fry DF Uh-huh. 3-31-84 Side 2, p 24 I feel a lot better about it, about a lot of things in my life. L May I ask you a couple more things? DF Uh-huh. L In, remember we were talking about 1924 and 1925 and Randolph came into town here. DF How did you meet your husband? Uh, at a church social. How was that? He was in town from his trip on the pullman car I guess and . he heard about the social at our church, the Calvary Baptist Church and I was there and that's where I met him. And he asked me for my phone number and I gave it to him and he seemed to be a rather nice gentle sort of person and he talked about his family, his mother and his brothers and then he met my mother and he and my mother became quite friendly and he was very fond of my mother and we eventually got married. L How long did it take? DF Oh, a matter of eight or nine months. L Did he tell you about his portering? DF Yes. He was a nice man. Many of the experiences that they would have on the cars. Some were very funny and some were of rather a serious nature but he ••• L Do you remember any of the things that he told you? DF Not directly. Not really, clearly. The porters always had a way of telling lots of jokes and lots of stories and different things that happened on the trains, you know. Incidents with passengers in the pullman cars and all so many times they were just stories that they'd - something that had happened but they'd build it up, you know, and have something to laugh about when they came home and joked with you, you know and tell you stories. But he told me Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 2, p 25 a lot of the interesting places he traveled to and sometimes the trips he would take and the people he would meet but he was a fellow that always - if he was in a city for overnight and had time to go to church, he'd always go to church because he could meet people there, you know. That's how I met him, at church. L You mentioned that you got married the same year as your sister. DF Uh-huh. L Why was that an important thing to mention? DF Well, I don't know really why but it's always remained in my mind that she was married in January- of the same year that I was married. And she was married in January and I don't remember the date but I was married on April Fool's Day. (laugh) Tomorrow would be my anniversary. L Tomorrow's April 1st. DF Uh-huh. The day before I was married was Easter Sunday and my husband had come in from a trip and we spent Easter Sunday together at church and then he came out and had dinner at our house. The next morning he called up and he said, "Will you meet me downtown?" And I said, "What for?" get married." He said, "I think we better go ahead and We had very little money. I said I didn't think too much of it and he kept on talking and he said, "Let me talk to your mother." And I put her on the phone and she said, "Alright." And so I came back to the phone and he said, "She says it's alright. I've talked to your dad and he said you take your old lady and mine and go on and _ get married then." (laugh) So we married at the courthouse. L YOu got married the next day? DF That was on April Fool's Day. That was the morning of April Fool's Doris Steward Fry Day. 3-31=84 Side 2, p 26 He called up and did all of that. because it was April Fool's Day. I thought it was a joke Until he asked my mother if she'd go with us. L So your mother's saying it's okay kind of convinced you too a little bit. DF Well, I might as well go ahead. I wasn't going to do any worse by not being married than I was have if I'd got married, I guess. So I went in and got married. L How did, uh, when you got married, did you think or talk to your husband about moving? DF Oh, yes. I talked about it but we had no place to go. We stayed with my folks for awhile and, of course, he was gone a lot because he was still in the pullman service. And I stayed with my folks until oh, I think we were married in April - well, most of that first year of our marriage I guess. Then we heard about this posi- tion with this family who needed a chauffeur and a cook, a housekeeper so we took - we went and had an interview with them and they -hired us. So then we lived there. L Where was that? DF Out in Murray. * Holladay. DF The , Walkers lived in Holladay and we lived in Murray. that we worked for lived in Murray. Uh-huh, yes. The Fabians, It was called Murray but it was up offof the main part of Murray. You cross State Street to go to Murray, don't you. L Yeah. DF Okay, well, you go out State Street until you got to Vine Street and you go right on up a big winding, up through a little canyon Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 2, p 27 like and there were little farms and places there. place. It was up off a lane, up off the main road. They had this A big beauti- ful log house. L What family was it you worked for? DF The Fabians. L Fabians. DF Ferdinand Fabian. L Ferdinand? DF Uh-huh. L How was that? DF It wasn't too bad. We had our living and our meals and we'd go in the spring and open the house up and they would move in and they would spend Boston. their winters out of town. Sometimes she would go to Sometimes he didn't go and he'd live with his daughter who lived in Salt Lake City uptown. And then when they'd get ready to move back to the country, why, we'd go out and open the house and clean it and have it ready for them and they'd start living there. And they'd live there all summer. they lived there year round. And later on then they got so And we worked for them for several years. L Did you find that demeaning? DF Well, it's demeaning, yes, but that was the only kind of employment Black people could get at that time. chauffeur work. You did maid's work or There were a lot of Black chauffeurs here at that time, working for the wealthy families here like the Kearns and the Walkers and, oh Richmonds. There must have been dozens. And either their wives or some Black woman would do-was the cook there. And all the catering that was done here in Salt Lake City was done Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 2, p 28 by Black catering women. L I didn't know that. DF Very fine cooks. L Who DF There was Minnie Cole and there was a lady by the name of Mrs. do you remember doing that? Harris. Oh, I can't remember .•• L Now, you mean when people had parties, they would hire these women? OF To come in and do the catering, uh-huh. L Setting things up? OF Uh-huh. L So you lived out there in the house? OF Uh-huh. I Do the cooking and ... learned a lot of the cooking I did from people like that. When they'd close the house up and they would go away for the winter, then we'd move into town and we'd rent a room or small quarters someplace where we could just stay until it was time to go back. honest. Like you say, well, when you stop to think about it, it was It's really not demaning I suppose. We were taught that anything you did as long as it was honest and it was clean, why, it wasn't all that bad. But, I think now people look upon house ser- vants and all as a being a demeaning sort of type of work. L I don't know if it was or not. DF Well, yes, a lot of times it was verydemeaning because many of the I was just asking. people you worked for were very stingy, they didn't pay well. They didn't - when you're a servant you don't deserve any better or anymore than that, you know. were not treated badly. We were not all that well paid but we We're not treated like slaves. just did not pay house servants very big wages. L What were you getting, do you remember? OF When we worked for the Fabians we got $80 a month each. But they Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 2, p 29 L Plus your room and board? OF Plus our room and board. The first job my husband had in Washing- ton, he didn't get but $80 a month for many years. Oh, it was maybe two or three years when he'd ask for a raise, why, he'd get more work to do. He'd give him a raise but he would give him more work. L I see. Kind of balance things out again? OF Uh-huh. I remember once he camehome and told me that he had asked his boss for a raise and he said, "What do you suppose he said to me?" I said, "Well, I can imagine all kinds of things. he say?" What did He siid, "Well, you must get along pretty well. wife works too." Your I had to work because we had to have a certain amount of money to live on because we were buying a house. L What made you leave the Fabians after two years? What happened? DF Well, I think my husband decided to try something else. being an independent chauffeur and things like that. He tried It didn't work out too well so we took another job with the family, the Walker family. That was during the depression and the Walkers had lost all of their money and gone broke. The bank had gone broke. Things like this, you know, and so we worked there for awhile and then we decided to move to Washington. L Do you remember moving? DF Uh-huh. L What was that like? DF There wasn't much to move. You just packed a suitcase and went. We didn't have anything much. We had furniture, yes, and I stored it and stored it in my mother's attic in our old house up here until we bought our little house in Yakima and then I came back Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 2, p 30 here and got my furniture. All we had to do was pack up our personal things and go. L Was that a big day for you? To get out? DF Well, yes, I felt like it was going to be better. I knew it wasn't going to be easy but I just knew somehow that it would be better. And it was. It was better. We both worked and we worked from one job to another until we found something better to do that paid better, we'd move from that to another job and then during World War II when war broke out, my husband was going to be drafted. was working for a private family at that time. He He was a gardener and a chauffeur for this family there and the name of the family he worked for there was Miller. Mr. Miller had been ill for quite a long time and he died the night before Pearl Harbor was bombed. And, of course, they were drafting men, you know. My husband and his brother and several of his friends were all called in for their examination or whatever they called it and they were drafted. L Physicals? DF Uh-huh. And then he was almost hopeful that he'd go. He thought it would be an exciting experience I think to be a soldier and travel with the Army and all. But anyway by the fact that Mr. Miller had passed away and Mrs. Miller was alone and all, she persuaded somehow or another she persuaded the man who was the head of the draft board that she needed my husband awfully bad. couldn't get along without him. live on a farm. same time. So they exempted him if he would We bought a farm. poultry and fruit. That she Bought a fruit farm and raised But he had to keep working for her too at the And that was a little bit rough but we made it. She exacted a promise from my husband that he would stay with her and Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Side 2, p 31 work for her as long as she lived. When he came home to tell me this, I just thought, "This is the end of the wdrld. have promised anything like this." You couldn't He said, "Yes, I promised her." I said, "Go back right now and tell her you didn't mean it. her to release you from this promise." I said, "She might outlive you. "Well, I can't do that." She's an old lady but that doesn't mean she's going to die before you do." I promised already." Ask "Well I can't tell her no. So we just had to suffer it out and many times we'd be in pretty close quarters financially, you know, and we'd need help. year. Our fruit would freeze. We didn't have a crop that If the fruit froze, we didn't have a crop and we didn't know how we were going to live if we didn't have a crop so he'd go to her and talk to her. Well, she'd bail us out. And he didn't tell me the details of these bailing out that he'd have from her. She was making him pay her back every month by taking it out of his salary and then finally I had him tell me all about this and I said, "Oh, my goodness,_ what in the world will become of us? in debt the rest of our lives. all of this time." We' re We're paying her and paying back I said, "Don't ever do it again." By this time we had enough credit established that we could go to the bank and borrow some money. So that was the way we got out of that. life is not easy for everybody anyway, I guess. persevere, ycu come out somehow or another. wealthiest in the world but you survive. But And ifyou can You don't come out the And life is just a game of surviving I guess. L What a strange thing to have done to have made that promise. DF I couldn't believe it, but he did it and when she did die she left him a little money but it was nothing like we had sacrificed his Doris Steward Fry life for. 3-31-84 Side 2, p 32 She'd spent all the best years of his life working for her and taking care of her. L It's so startling. Pretty startling thing to do. OF Well, sometimes I was bitter about it but Iim not bitter about it anymore. L You seem to have gotten over a lot of things. OF Yes, I think I have. I'm not throwing any bouquets at myself. was just something that I had to do. before I could be a real person. I had to overcome those things So, maybe you're supposed to make sacrifices in life and I suppose most people do. So, I'm here. happy to be able to take care of my brother who needs me. my life. I'm It isn't I'm not a nurse and I'm not all that good a person but I can do it and so I'm going to do it. more. It Until he doesn't want me any- Then he can tell me, "I don't need you anymore." going back to Seattle where I love it. And I'm I may eventually persuade him to go with me. * Oh, I've got a few things here that I'd rather live down. OF Well, bless your heart. You can certainly live your own life. And there's no reason in the world why anyone shouldn't live his own life. But I'll help you if I can. L Thank you. DF I haven't told you very much and what I have told you isn't very happy but I really can't talk about Salt Lake very much in any other way. L You told me actually a great deal. DF What is your nationality? L I was born in Hungary. OF oh, were you? Doris Steward Fry 3-31-84 Si~e 2, p 33 L I'm Jewish. Hungarian Jewish. OF I thought so. I have a friend, John Mifsed in Seattle. He was my dramatics coach and teacher in a class they had for Senior Citizens in Seattle and I just love. knew. He is the nicest,sweetest boy I ever He's just so kind and he's so interesting and he loves the - he's the dramatics teacher in one of the colleges there. I think it's the Seattle Community College and he got this little group together at the Senior Center there that I belong to and I got into it and we've had so much fun. We just had a great deal of fun. have another friend there who's a real close friend of mine. He's the Director - And I Program Director of our Senior Center there. think a great deal of him too. He's also Jewish. L What is your first name again? OF Doris. L The fact that it's not happy wouldn't show up on you. up on you any longer. OF I There's a lot of light in you. Yeah, I think a lot of this happened in my late years. good deal of happiness in me now. life. Doesn't show Created a I have a more happy outlook on And I . have a lot of good friends. Like I said, when I used to not have associated with anyone who was not of my own race •.• . L You were going to say, 'not Black' • OF If they were interested in being my friends I didn't let them think I would have been interested in their friendship. But one of my very best friends who lives in the building where I live in Seattle is a ~utch lady and she and I are just very close. have the most fun together. We go to movies. We go to operas. And she and I We go to ballets. We go to wine-tasting parties. We just do lots of things together and she's a fun person and she likes to do lots of Doris Dteward Fry things. 3-31-84 Side 2, p 34 We're just very close. years ago. It wouldn't have happened many I couldn't have done it. L Thank you. DF You're welcome. But I can now.