Interviews with African Americans in Utah, Edward Steward, Interview 1

Transcript (38 pages) of an interview by Leslie Kelen with Edward Steward on June 6, 1983. From Interviews with African Americans in Utah

Mr. Steward remembers his early life in Salt Lake, his experience as a boxer and baseball player, his marriage, discrimination, the Mormon church, and his long work history at the Salt Lake City Water Department.

Edwar d Steward 6-6-83 L O.K. You' ll be we l comed to see the interview when it ' s typed up, .-.! of course. You know , nothing is going t o happen in terms of any­thing being published or used to book form for about two years . So, we 're looking way down the road . Right now, we're just col­lecti ng interviews. ES Well, that makes good sense too . L Al ot of the people, also, that we're collecting from won't be a ­round forever. ES That ' s true. L Yeah. We l l, may I s t art. Will it be ok? ES Yes , I j ust was going to tell you tha t that (clears throat) Mary- ­ah- - Mary Smith was t he one that first told me about you. L Mary did? ED And s he has a sister out at t he Bountiful Nursing Center . And we go out ther e together every week . L That 's Mi nyon , r i ght? ES Minyon . Right . And my wife's name i s Ruth. It ' s kind of a - - kind of a sad affair out there . They --well, they just--they don't know what's going on . I guess , they both are bad off . They don't know- - they don't recognize anyone . Can ' t hold a conversation . We go out every week anyway . L You go out every week. ES Every Sunday. I t 's kind of a pitiful thing . On t heother hand , if t hey were to start maybe improving a l ittle , and then you wer en't ther e to see it , well , then you'd feel bad about t hat too. The nurses out t here claim that ' s there's very lit tle chance that eit her one of t hem will get any better . So , it's one of those things. Edward Steward 6-6- 83 p . 2 Anyway, Mary and I go out t here together all the time . She's a real fi ne person . She's out of t own--out of the city now . L She's left town for awhile. ES She's down in--ah (cle ars throat) by Georgia . She went down. She's got a grandcflaughter down there who 's graduating. Out of high school. And she went down to Atlanta; she'll be there a week . She'll be back this coming, let's s ee. Sa tur- -Saturday , she 'll be back. L Sounds l ike going out to t h a t nursing home has been kind of hard ES on you. It sure it sure don't do you any good, I don't think. It ah --well you see so many,rot just your own people, but a ll those others. Sick people out there. Some of them can't get out of a chair. Some can't get out of a bed. And some of them just lay there and moan. And l.ikes ---and to me, it's, yeah, it's kind of hard. But I still feel. l i ke I'm obligated to go. Because my wife's out. there. L How long has she been out there? ES Going on three yers , now. L You've been going out once a week f or three years. ES I used t o go more often. Yeah . I used tog [c l.ears throat) at least twice a week, sometimes three times . But they ah. She recognized me then. But everytirne I'd get ready to leave, t hen she 'd want to --she 'd want to come back home with me. And then after, the nurse would have quite a time. So they said it would be betterff I didn't come out- -if I would come out. So , T took the bin+ and I found out most of the people just visited once a week. So that's wha t I do now. Of course, Mary. She was just going Edward Stewar d 6-6-83 p.3 out once a week when I f i rst put my wife out there . And when she to l d me about it, t oo. So , I figur ed it was t he best thing to do . It was better--better on me t oo . I wasn ' t doing her any good be­cause she ' d ge t all upset she was going to l eave and come back home wi t h me . L Wha t was the p r oblem wit h your wife tb.at she had to go out there? ES Well, she just . She just went senil e . She had an operation . And she had--had to h ave . I think t hey said , they took 7 inches of i ntesti ne o ut . She never seemed to get over t hat operation . She-­her mind seemed like i t was stil l kind of good, but she--she wasn't h e r s e lf . She nev-- she just never was right after tha t . L What was the operation for? Was it a cancer? ES No. No . They ca l l i t dir yticulitis . They have to take out part of your i ntesti ne . L Why? Why? ES They ' r e infected. They get --- your intest ine was infected . And they said i f she didn't have t he operation , it wo uld k i ll her . It would poison h e r . So t hat ' s-- t h a t 's why I had to put her in the hospi tal. Bu-t: I don ' t think she ever got over it . She just-- I brou~ht her back home . She was back home for a couple of mont hs and I took her over to Denver. I've ro-ot a nephew over ther e who's a doctor . And he , he sai d he t hought he could help her. And so I took her over there and p u t her in a hospital . But, they d i dn't - - i t d i dn't do any good a t al l there . As a matter of fact, I thi nk she was wo rse . And I deci ded to bring her home . L Was t h e de terior ation fas t . Did she get bad quickly? ES Well , she --We ll , not real f as t . But you could tell . She wasn ' t her­self. For instance, there' s a mirror "n the door. And she ' d go stand Edward Steward 6-6-83 p . 4 a nd l ook a t that--at her r eflection in the mirror. .And she'd say, "well, who--wha t ' s tha t woman doir.o here all the tiwe . What is she­what is she do i ng hE'r here?" And I' d say, "Well, honey , that 's just--that ' s j ust your r eflection i n the mirror ." "No ," she said , "I mean that woman--that woman r i ght there." And she was talking about her self. Her own reflect ion . She didn ' t recognize her self . L That mus t be a str ange thing to see someone do who you've known a ll your life. ES Yeah , I -- I covered the mirrors. I even c overed her dresser mir ror a nd t hen I put cloth over --so she wou ldn' t . It seemed l ike - -seemed like that didn ' t bot her h er. When I did that , she didn't even bot her t o look. And s ometimes I' d catch her. She 'd l ook i n t h ese mirr o r s a round here, some t i mes. Bu t she didn' t ask a ny q uestions a b out that . It was just t hat mirror . The f ull length mir ror on t hat closet door . She used to come stand . She'd stand and she' d look right t here. And s he' d say, "Well, what's tha t--what' s that woman doing here." And that makes-- tha t sort of makes me f eel funny, you know . She j ust never come back to her right mi nd. I took her out to. She was born up in Wyoming , around LaBarge, Kenunerer . K- E- M-M-E- R-E- R. L Oh, really? ES Yeah ., K-E-M-M-E·-R-E-R . And LaBarge . I s spelt LaBarge. And she was born and r aised up in ther e . ~er Dad bought a l ot of ranch land up there. And he-- he homesteaded several hund r ed acr es up there. He come o ut real good. L He did . ES Ahuh . Her Dad died fairly young . He was onl y in his earl y 6,0s when he died. And she had brothers who carried the r anch on. They were older. Big e nough a nd old e nough t o handle it. See, her Dad . They d i d f i ne . Edward Steward 6-6-83 p.5 Then the government come and put a dam in. What they call the J!lontainel Fontanel Dam. It ' s a government project. And t hat forced several ranches up ther e to close down . They just bought them out and they just hadro place to go . So they - - rmst of them j ust left up t here. She .stil l has. My wi f e still has a brother up there in La Barge . L What's your wife 's maiden name. ES Stepp. S-T-E-P-P·- Ruth . Ruth Stepp . They were originally f rom Richmond, KEntucky . Her Dad went up through there. And, I think the first time , he went up there, he hereded sheep . But it seemed like he liked it and all . And he went back up there and he- -they were homesteading up there. They -you could get--oh, several hundred acres of l and. And he had some money too. And he homesteaded and he bought--he bought several acres up there . He started out small. He started o u t with sheep first . Then he went to cattle, after that . There was seven of them in the family, s o see they had some help. [Both L & ES l a ugh] The girls, well , my wife. My wife could ride. She could ride and anything just like t hetoys . She's a good rider . But that's what happ ened . They had to sell out.. Of course , her Dad died . Her Dad died before this happened. And then her n:Dther d i ed . And t he boys were left in charge of it. until they hd---they had -- t hey just had t o take the p ayment from the government . I guess there 's just no more of the place up there. Cause this damn is right down below their property . And t he dam, well, see , the dam is backed up now , oh, I gues s 15 miles anyway. L So you're s aying their property ' s unde r water now. ES Yeah. They' re--well, not all of it , but where their home-"'-where the main ranch a nd home - - that 's all under water now. Yeah . The Edward Steward 6-6-83 p . 6 old house, you coul dn ' t. I think, well they blew the house up when they got ready to s tart filling it. I understand they just dynamited the old house. And just around that area . But they had t o clear it all out . Thre's quite a-- I used to love t o go up there because of the Green River . Went right through , there, right down your back yard . It was just about a hundred yards out from the ranch house. And I'd go right down there and ---R.ight--Right ! off the bank ! Fish and catch a whole bunch. Catch nice trout. Every now and then, you'd catch a catfish . And. [laughs] You might catch anything. They had some fish up there called Boney Tail. You could catch a lot of them. L I don't even know what they l ook like. ES They're something like a sucker. Ah , they're good eating but they've got, oh, millions of bones. And they used to -- how do they. They used to kind off 11 Waste half--you'd waste alot of meat for dinner . You get rid a lot of t he bones t hat wsay. But they were-­they were good tasting fish. But as I say, they had--oh, they had more bones , more bones than a sucker, if possible [chuckles]. They were really a mess . It was-- L I didn ' t even know they had a black corrununity up there. ES It wasn't a community . L Just a couple of people , huh? , ES Well, he went up. When her Dad went up there, he went up alone . L Oh, he did. ES And he hereded, he herded sheep up there. For this one, only one year or so. And then he want back t o Varia , Kentucky . And his --his Dad had some money. Andhe talked him into going.lal.ck up there- we1l, he was the one whooriginally bought all this property. And then they were able to homest ead so many hundreds of acres . They had quite a -- Edward Steward 6-6-83 p.7 quite a big spread.As a matter of fact , t hey went clear acros s the river. They had property on both sides o f the river. L That ' s nice. ES Yeah. I guess, they didn't know anything about r anching until they went up there and I guess they just learned as they went a long . But they did well. Did well for t hemselves . And then of course , aft er he got up and got settled , t hen he sent for his wife . And she came. And his Dad , they call ed him Grandpa--he was there. And the older brothers, they - Bill and John-·-they were o l d enough t o kind of help on the ranch. L So early did you wind up going up there. How far back do you remember? ES Oh, let 's see. My wife and I married in '46. And I--well, let's s e e , I guess I've been going up there before I went in the service. I went into the service in ' 43. And I knew her then. And we used to go up t here and ride horses and we ' d have ba·ll. The neighbors, Sa turday night,rnthey would---The little town up there. LaBa~ge, t h ey would have a dance. And her brothers al.l played instruments. THey furnished the music for the dances . We'd go up there and have a b a l l and just dancing, and, you know, those cowboys dancing around. They didn't have a very big dance hall [chuckles ] They ' d really have a big time up there. And everybody was glad to see everybody. You know, it--well , they was the only-they was the only black people up there . And everybody l oved them . They used to-- they just got along so well. Thought tha t was - - L That must have been nice t o see. ES Yeah, I thought it was. It made me f ee l good. Because they treated me the same way. You know, and I got to know a l o t of the people up there . As a matter of fact , I was just up there. Her oldest brother Edward St eward 6-6-83 p .8 d i ed down in Los Angelos. When they had to sell out out there . Then t hey--there's- - you know there ' s no p l ace around up there for them. They couldn't buy another p.ace because ever ything was taken . So t hey moved down-- her oldest brother and his family moved down to Los Angelos . He d i ed down t here. And he -they sent him back up toLaBarge f or Funeral and then back down to Kemmerer Cemetery for burial. I went up to that. And oh boy ther e was a beuat iful turnout. You never - - well , it was so big. They had to h ave it in school. Have the f unera l i n the school house. There's no church up there big enough t o handle it . L WAs that surprisi ng to have such a large turnout. ES No . Well, I guess --I guess that maybe it was . That ' s wher e they have a ll the funerals , you know. Prominent people where they ' re well known , you know . L So he was really known up the re . ES Oh , yeah. All over . Way up in Big Piney. He used to r i de in rodeos too. The one that d i ed , John. He was a regular cowboy . He used to r ide in rodeos and a l l. He's a good all around cowboy. Andwhen I star ted going up t here, they always treated me like justme of t he family . I j ust got a l ong fine with everybody . And Ruth and I [p hone rings] ma rri ed . I married i n between [interrupted ] L You were saying about-somet hing about you having been married in between t he t ime-- ES Oh, yes. I t didn ' t last very long. I' d known this gir l for severa l years . Shelived over in Ogden. And I don ' t know . I ' d dec ided t hat I wasn' t goi ng to mar ry h e r . Anyway, she k iJ:1;d of t a lked me int o i t. She moved over her e. Went to work here and we got t o goi ng prett y steady , and we married . In the ll\ meantime , Edward S~eward 6-6-83 p.9 Ruth, my present wife , - they bot h of their name s was Rut h . And s he moved--she moved to Los Angelos. And I didn't see her anymore un­til after I got out of the service i n ' 45. But we--and then she married. She married . And her marriagedidn't work out . And mine didn 't . So I met her down in Los Angelos and we got t ogether a nd we got married . It didn 't come that quick, but wedid--we did get back together and we married. And she was really a good wi fe . A niv e-- very nice person . I was very happy t o be with her. Then you lose-- you know you lose o ut .Like I said , t his has been going on for three years . And it ' s just a hard pill to take . They don't know --they don 't know what t o do. And it's jus t. Well, it's just-­it 's just hard. Nothing--not hing wor ks out right . L Do youhave the feeling that you 're seeing a p art of life tha t you didn't want t o see? ES We l l. I'd say , I'd say yes. You-you-you mean with my wi fe. Yes , I sure don't--I never wo uld want to see it al l over again . But it's really been some thing. It ' s bothered me . And it's -- I mean , it's hurt me. I guess, I don't feel like I --I'm getting over it like I probably s hould . But everytimeI go over to Bountifu l to see her , I come back and I ; rn a lways just kind of shook up. And wonder, what's it all a bout? Why should this happen? Why should i t happen to her? She was s uch a sweet p~rson . It ' s just really . It's hard to take. And then Mary. She's--sbe was always c razy about her older siste r. She there ' s just the two o f t hem . She feels pretty bad about it t oo . So we kind of c r y on e ach other ' s shoulde r , you know . And Sunday again . a bout t he size of i t . I guess I'm gett i ng ready fo r the n ext well, we'll see you next Sunday . That ' s L You pick her up and drive her? Edward Steward 6 - 6-83 p.10 ES Yeah, I take her . It' s just on the way , anyway.I pick her up at her home . And we go out and pick up the freeway and go on over t o Bounti­ful . She 's a real n ice person, I admire her very much . And she ' s got a husband who 's a h--he acts like he ' s a - - I don 't know what's the matter with h i m. He s eems t o be--his mind seems to be pretty good but he won ' t do any--thing--al l he wants to do is just s it. Sit i n a chair. Sometimes he' l llisten to or watch tv or something l i ke t hat. But he won 't go outside. He won't--if there's any snow to shove l or antyhing like that , he won't touch any of that . their garden . J ustdon't want to do a nythi ng. Just s it down. I' ve known him too ever since he was just a kid. We all grew up together around here_:_ I sure can ' t understand him . He don't act like he ' s s ick . He talks. He talks al l right. [s l ight laugh] It ' s odd. [pause] See, they married, oh , several years ago. I t hink they married in 1926 o r 28 somewhere along in there . She--I know she j u s t got out of west high. And they had a coupl e of children. And he up and took o ff. He deser ted them. He moved down to the coast I thi nk he went to Denver first. And then he went on up to the coast. And they s eparated for several years . And by gosh , he came back here and she let him t alk her i nto marrying him again. Just--boy , I don't know. I never coul d understand that . I told her, "You must have had a weak. moment or something ."She admits it now. [chuckles ] She says , ''.I think so too. " But they are married again now. And he don 't . I ' ll go over there a nd pick her up . Abou t one oclock. And we 'll--we ' re usually gone about 2 hours . Over there and back . And h e 'll still be sitting there , listening t o the TV. Or just sitting Just sit ! He 'l l go out in the kitchen and get over in a corner and just sit t here . And be Edward Steward 6-6-83 p.11 k ind of holding his head like that . And just -you' d think he was in deep thought . You ask him a question , and he seems like he hears you. He'll answer you and all. But , he's sort of a peculiar guy. L Soundslike something has happened to him. ES Something must have h appened t o him . He ' s got no ambition. He dont want to doanything. He don't want to do --no kind of work . He just wants to sit . He'll sit in one chair, even. Maybe get up and go get a drink of water and go sit back down again, or something like t hqat.Go to the bathroom . And come and sit down again . He's a f unny guy. L Sounds like you've seen some things that are hard to rr,ake sense of . ES Hemight have-- L Soundslike you have, not him, you . ES Yeah, I guess I have. L Seen some things that we didn't - -don't fit in my personali ty. I-I was always kind of a happy go lucky guy. See, I didn't ma rry- - I didn ' t marry until I was around 35 . First time I married. I played alot of baseball during the depress i on. I couldn ' t get a decent job so I p l ayed baseball in the summertime. And i n the winter time, I boxed . I used to t ake this territory. In Salt Lake. I boxed around here quite a little bit. And I 1d go up in Idaho, Montana , just, on the road--just going. L No manager. Just you ? ES Just me. I had a manager once. Here in Salt Lake. That didn ' t [ l aughs once) l ast very long. He wanted--he wanted his big cut, y0u know. And , I said, what the hell, I'm not making enough money to take care Edward Steward 6-6- 83 p.12 o f h i m. I can manage mys elf . I d i dn ' t have any probl ems getting bouts . I jus t-- I kept myself in good conditi on . I wa s middle ­weight I kept myself i n good c ondition . There wasn't very many of them tha t could get over me. L Didyou h ave a different n ameor did you go by your n ame? ES No , I went under the name of Eddie Baker . There's a wrest ler , he's dead now. Ira Dern. D-E-R- N. I don 't know if you knew him . There ' s quit e a family of them here . I knew al l of them . And he--the first night I boxed wa s out in Bingham . They had a smoker out there and I was s till in s chool. And I was an amateur athelete . You know , in school, you're amateur. I f not in school, you take a nickle for anything . And I went out t here. It was just--come up a ll a t once . He needed aboxer up t here . And I was headliner too . Headliner. And he talked me i nto it. So I said, well, I can 't -- I ' ll have to change my n ame. I can' t go out here andbox under the name of Ed Steward. He said , no , you' r e Eddi eBaker. He's t he one who gave me the name Eddie Baker and t hat's the one I a lways boxed under. That way , they didn't--the amateur didn't cat ch up to me . I was do i ng a little illegally . It wasn 't the most ho nest thing to do , I guess . But then, by gosh , for five or t en bucks i n t hose d a ys , we'd do most a nything. That' s about all we 'd make . Sometimes we'd ma ke, oh , 20-30 dollars . And when I started boxing up i n Idaho Falls, I was on a percent age up there. I would sometimes . Sometimes I think I'd make $150 bucks. A real good night , maybe $200. That would be ten r ounds . L You boxed t e n rounds . ES YEah , they al l--most t en round fights are good. Yeah. Then, as I say . I-- L what kindo f style did you h ave? Edward Steward 6-6-83 p .13 ES MMrrun? L What kind of style of boxing didyou have? ES Well, I was nstly a boxer, but I could hit. I was a heavy puncher . I ' d knock alot o f those guys out. As a matter of fact, I-I- I've boxed guys alot bigger than I was . But I --I was always in good condition. And I' ve got e x t r a long arms. L Yeah, you do a t that. ES They couldn't getto me. I-I-I- could h urt them. I knocked alot of t hem out. There was a guy c ame through there, . He wa.s from Montana and he just got out of the ---out of the Marines , I think it was . And he was touted as a p retty good boxer. He weighed 180-190 p ounds . And I weighed 165. That's the most I could . The most weight I could put on. I knocked him out in the 8th Round . He hadn't--he hadn ' t turn pro very long before that. But he had quite a name up in Mon-tana . And they sent him down to take care of me . I took care of him! I used to do- - L Th a t' s a tough thing whe n he we ighs more than you , too. ES Yea, but as I say , I had the reach -- ~ '· '.: . And then inside , he couldn't get me . And I was s t rong. lmd he --he just couldn't handle me. He'd t r y to get me up again s t the ropes . He couldn 't get me up . He couldn '.t get me up to t he ropes, not t o stay very long . Andmost of t he t ime, I'd o utpunch him on the ropes a ny - way because I as f aster . I won the all the way. But I knocked him out in the 8th round L Tell me something, when you knock somebody, do you know as you hit t hem that they're going to fall ? ES Yes, you do. Most times . Especi a l l y if you hit him on the jaw. You can. You just sort o f --you sort - you just sort of know i t because Edward Steward 6-6-83 p.14 you you can feel the hit and there 's quite a shock there. You pret ty well know whether you got him or not, know whether he's hurt or not . A lot of time, a guy would go down, he's not hurt . He ' s just doing that to get a little rest. You've got to watch out for those kind of guys. But I know he was hurt, I knocked him out cold. He didn't make any effort to get up. Just knock him out, co l d as a wedge. I got him--I gothim just right. Got him coming in. Got him right on the jaw. IF you get him like that, his nerve, you see, goes up there. It don't have to be a long hard punch either. Just a short punch. If you get him on the jaw right , that hurts. And the nerve, you know, it just can go all t o pieces. L Huh. I never knew that. ES Oh, yeah, there's a lot --a lot of these guys that you think are faking, you don ' t think of being hurt. They ' rerot faking , they're hurting. Even just , for a lot of times, from one s hort blow. That's supposed to be onthe jaw, now. You -a guy can take an awful lot of p unishment up around thetemple. And all over the Bead. But you ~t him on the j aw and there 's the nerve. I think he said , the nerve. You hit him on this side, the nerve's over here that's affected. L If you hit him on the right, the nerve i s on the left. C"'-\"._,e.;J - - ES Yeah, he's out of t here if you get him right. And we used to - - I think it was just 6 ounces. They wouldn't let us use 4 --they used to use four ounce gloves around here. At first. But I think they fianlly allwent to 6. Thre wasn ' t much cover over a four ounce glove. L So you were practically bare fisted. ES YEa- . And the you tape the hands too . You tape your hands more Edward Steward 6-6-83 p.15 to keep them from getting hurt. Sothey won' t spread. But I think-- I think now, the heavyweightI think all of them are. I t hink they're 8 ounces. Too many guys were getting hurt. Put more , you know, they put a little more padding . Then after 6 or 7 rounds, i f they 're doi ng much fi ghting, it get s thin. , They've got their hands taped underneath that to--to keep that stuff spreads. L How didyouget involved in fighting? How did that happen? ES Because-- becauseI needed the money. I didn't have a job. Couldn't get a job dur i ng the depression here. See, I was in school when I first--whenI first started. L How o l d were you. ES It was about . LEt ' s see, I was probably 19. I graduated that same year. L What year was that? ES 1929 . L Right at the beginning, huh? ES Yes. I was going t o West High School. ,Just graduated. Yeah. I never did--- I never did rea lly make any money. But it was - - didn't cost you much to l ive then, either. L Anybody teach you how to box or did you just pick it up by yourself. ES More or less , more or less picked i.tup myself. Just. I would go in the gym naturally and I'd box with guys from the gym .. But when I was an the road, therewasn't anybody for me to box with. Like I say, upon Idaho Falls, I'd go up there and box . I wouldn ' t be there long enough to train I 'd just go from one place to another. sometime I'd boxed twice a week. I had boxed as much a s 3 ti.mes a week . Then you just keep, you keep in shape and you don ' t have to do much training. ,Just good physically. I didn't smoke or drink or anything like tha t . ;It was easy. And then i n high school, see I was in Edward Steward 6-6-83 p . 16 athletics in high school. I played football and baske tball and baseball . Was on the track team. So I was always active . I got up to -- before I graduated--I got up to about 160 pounds . And when I got i nto t he service . I got up to-- over a 190 pounds . That wasn't very good. Of course, it didn ' t matter because I wasn't-- I wasn' t I wasn 't boxing or anything like t hat . L What did your parents think about your boxing. The beginni ngs . ES They didn ' t like it. But. My gosh, you had to - -had to do something . The jobs--you just couldn't - you couldn 't get a job. You see, when they come up with this PWA. This Public Works. Well, I was single. That was for married people. Theyshowed preference see . If you were married , you could get on. And I think it paid two dollars a day . L What kind of jobs were those? ES Oh, building . Except maybe laying pipe lines or something like that . Or p ut ting in sidewalks. Just common-common l abor . And I wanted to. I -I-wanted- -but I couldn't get it because I was single . And I tried to get into t he CMCT camps up there. Government-- ah , work in the forest. They wouldn't take me t o that because [laughs] I was too old. L You were too old . ES Yeah . I was 20 years old then. I got to be 20 and so·-'rhat was mostly for kids, then , maybe 16 or 18. So I couldn 't get in on that. Everything but fight took against me . So I just -- I took what I could. I got in tthe ring. I 'd go out here to Magna . They'd have smokers out there or something. L What's a smoker exactly? ES OH , they-- they have wrestling and whatrot. They --it ' s just a Edward Steward 6 - 6-8 3 p .17 bunch o f s t ages, guys mostly. And they- -they go out and they have programs and different things. And then maybe have a f ight on, a special fight maybe with me or somebody else. Maybe that would be the headline of the sports event s . And. They would---oh, they'd I guess because you could do wha t you wanted to do , the dog gone places would be full of smoke . I could hardly breathe. Ha . I didn't smoke or anything. You know, and it really a ffected me . And they would drink . They could get home brew and stuff like t hat and t hen the guys would bring the bootleg stuff in- They could buy al l that they wanted - your whiskey .; you know- -rnoonshine . L Moonshine . ES I guess tha t' s where theygo t t he word smoker from. That they--it was a stag eve nt- No women. No women to t hat. And t hey ' d - -they 'd always try to get the entert a i ner s drunk . I never--I never did like whi skey. 1'ho ugh I didn ' t get there- -for awhile , I wa s drinking quit e a little bit down there. Then I didn't l ike it . It wasn ' t somethi ng that I liked. I just quit it. And then when my wife got sick, I cut i t out . L Wha t were those smokers like? Were they r e a l no i s y? ES Oh , yeah . Alot of t i mes , they ' d h ave girls there d ancing. They ' d put t hem up in the rings , where we boxed . And they'd get up there a nd do a little dancing and al l l ike that, you know , half naked . L You mean like strippers. ES Ahuh . And bese guys, oh, they ' d have- -you ' d think they were going t o t ear the place up . They Eally enjoyed that. I think thatrappened about once a month. Because I boxed at several of them. Bingham was the first one I went to and then they used to h ave them out in Edward STeward 6-6-83 p.18 Garfield and Magna . Jus t wherever there was these rnines ,you know . Mines and smelters . They ' d have t hese affairs on . I think they had t o pay somuch to belong to it . I think you had t obe a member to get to go to these things . L Was a c lub , you mean. ES Kind of a club affair. Because they did ' t --they didn 't let everybody come . I'm sure t hat' s what it was. You must have had to paydues. L They let black people come? ES We-1, I don ' t think there was a.ny black people working out there then . L very few. ES Well, let ' s see. There were some b lack people wo r king in Garfield. But I never seen a black person in one of thse smokers. I don ' t know whether they i.ere barred or what. Since you mentioned that, I never thought o f it. L Did they ever make any racial rema r ks a.bout you. Did it bothe r you , I mean. ES Well, you--you know , youvery seldom hear d anything like t hat. Now , when I used t o--I'd play baseball . We ' d go down south , Southern Utah . L Who 'd you play baseball for? ES I played with the Salt Lake Tigers. We had . And then I played. I played with several whit e teams around here too . L The Salt Lake Tigers was a black t eam. ES Yea , it was all black. L Softball or hardball. ES It was hardball . That was --taht was al lblack team . I I didn't even know about them. Where did they come from? in Salt Lake? ES Yea . There was a fellow by the nameof Herman Whaley -W-H-A-L-E-Y . Edward Steward 6-6-83 p . 19 First name was Herman. And he -- I think he organized it . I think he was the one that got things started . Salt Lake Tigers . And I played with the--I played with them. And then I --of course, I played in West High. I playedbaseball for t hem. L What position did you play? ES First base. I played 3 seasons wi th the White Elephants over in Denver . That was an a ll-black team. L White Elephants . ES Yeah . Ha-ha. White Elepahants . Some name, huh? L Do you remember who wasm your team in the Salt Lake Tigers. Who played with you, their names . would you tell me some of their neames . ES Why don ' t we go down in the basement and l.ook--I-·- end side 1 begin side 2 L About t ha t baseball team there. Do you know anything about how it was put together? ES The tiaam here? L Yeah. The Salt Lake Tigers. ES We l l , I really--it. It was pretty well organized when I got-- when I got big enough to play with them. I started playing with them i n, oh, gosh , I was in junior h i gh school . 19--I guess, about 1923 when I first s tarted playing with them. So they must have got organized gosh around 1922 or somewhere a long in there because I think t hat - - I was i n junior high school . L Who do you r emember on the team? Who was .i.t made of? Edward Steward 6- 6-83 p . 20 ES OH, I got a picture of them too . Somewhere, is somebody hasn't got away with it . L Can you tell me some o f the names you remembe r? ES Yeah. There - let me see. There was Homer Ellis. L Will you spell the l ast names . ES ELLIS . HOMER . FRANK ELLIS. L Brothe rs? ES Brothers. Ahuh . and also t here was JOHNNY ELLIS . Three brothers. And then there was Herm;:tn WHALLEY was t he manager. HERMAN WHALLEY. He was the manage r. And there was Wa llace Berry . Ben Brooks . And t his guy from down i n Price . He come up Andrew--Andrew Pea r son. L No kidding. ES Andrew Pearson . He was from down around Price. You know him? L I know of him. ES Well , he played with us. Di d I tellyou Sylvestor ~rry . Have I mentioned his anem? He p.ayed wit h us. L BERRY . ES BERRY , yeah, I think that ' s the way he spelled it. Di d I mention Ben Brooks? L Yeah . ES Ben Brooks and what i s that c a t cher's name ? Oh, Pearson. He used to catch t oo . He u;ed t o pitch and c a t ch too . L Not~ the s ame time. ES No , not tha t fast. Oh , gosh . I. There's more o f them . There's more of them t han tha t .Oh, [phone rings ] [Leslie chuckles ]. Monroe Flemings. L Monroe Fl emings was on your team? Edward Stewar d 6-6-83 p.21 ES He was from down around Price t erritory too. L Yeah . ES Yeah. And. Oh, yeah , [chuckle] this little guy, Walter GRIFFITH, I think it was. It was either Griffin or Griffith. I 'm not positive . HE played with us quite a while too. I mentioned the Ellis boys. L Whi ch of t he players stand out in your mind as being exceptionally good or exceptionally bad . ES The Ellis boys . They were allpretty good ball players. AH, let's see. There's not one of them a live !IDW. L All gone. ES All gone,yeah. They died young . I think there's only one brother left . He ' s the younges t boy. L Where is he living. ES I don't know where he lives , but he lives here in Salt Lake. His name is Aaron . Aaron Ellis . The r est of them have died. I'm trying to think, the re 's more that--there ' s more than that on the ball team . There's got to be a picture o f them around here some­wheres is someone didn't jus t swipe them from me. L Do you want to take a look for i t? ES Iw ish I could have found it. I wish I could have found tha t clipping , my si.ster-in-law just sent it . She was out here. She came out to the funeral I was t e lling you about in Wyoming. And s he went back to Denver and this picture was in the Denver Post. And quite a write up in there too. L About the team? ES Ahuh, about the Whi te Elephants. See, we were the only black team. We were the only black t eam inthe league. L WHat was the l eague fo r . [he repeats his question ] Edward Steward 6-6- 83 p. 22 ES Well, they wer e just, I thi nk they cal l ed it the City League. And it was--it was amateur. They used to pass a hat. That ' s not cons i dered pro . But we 'd get enough out of it to maybe get a dollar or two. Maybe buy a baseball. Bats and t hings like that . Wihtout h aving t o go t o our own pockets . But the r e ' s fellows from ou t of town , like me . · we got our room free . This fel l ow who was in charge of the club , Mr. Ross. He ah is a r eal estate man. And he has an apartment house ball players it his apartment house . L So you had a place t o stay . so he just shove us ES Yeah, and we didn't have to pay any r e nt. We d idn't make--we only wer e maki ng enough money t o eat. You could eat good then fo r a dollar a day. The best ! Get a whole stack of hot cakes and all the coffee you wa nted for a quarter. And then they'd give you bacon with your or bacon with it, s ome kind of h am. L You ought to put on a l i ght (ES looking through p apers] [tape pause] Now, I'm getting a little bit confused beca use we're talking about two teams at the same time . ES Oh yea. Well . L What was the difference between the two te ams. Or did one team stop existing and theother tema came a bout. ES The white Elephants ? L Did they come about l ater? ES No , this is the White Elephants. Thect.her team I was t alking about here, The Salt Lake Tigers. And I playedon both t eams . But I played with the Tigers before I played with them. L Oh I s ee . I see. Now, were they part of t he same leagu e . ES Oh, no. n . These guys are in Denver. L So the Salt Lake Tigers jsut played n UTah. Edward STeward 6- 6-83 p .2 3 L Well, t ell me about the Salt Lake Tigers , though. I mean, did you guys travel up and down the state. ES Yeah. We traveled . Oh, we'd go down t o gosh we went t o Price. We'd been down to Price . We 've been to Nephi. Nephi, we used to go and Springville. We ' d play American Fork. We playedup in Idaho even . Went up and there played a t a r odeo . L How di djou manage t o get around . ES We ' d have a couple of cars. Once we hired a bus . Once. The d arn bus broke down that's when we went to Idaho . The darn bus broke down on around Brigham Cit y , ssomewhere over there. We had to s tay all night. Ha-ha. That was a mess. L Didyou primarily p l ay with black teams o r did you play with white teams too? ES All white teams. See, there wasn't-- I don 't thnk we ever had but one black team here. The Salt Lake Tigers. At one time . Now, years ago and I didn't even rememb.er then, they h ad another black team . And theyclaimed they were -- they had a rea l good ball club. I don't re.mmber them beca us eit was before my time. And I started playing around 1920, around'21. I ah [shuffles through papers] L Was the competition pretty tough . ES Well , yea h . . . We p l ayed j uston Sundays . And tha t was just nore o r less amateur . We'd pass a hat like we did in Denver. And we 'd get e-ough out of it buy our balls and bats and .. we didn't the players didn't get anything out o f it. There wasn't tha t much . See, our p ark, we used to play out here at the Municipal Ball park on 7th East and 13th South. And it was al l open . Ther e wasn't no--no fen' ce around there or anything . And they cou; dn't hardly collect if they wantedto. But they would pass the h a t and we ' d get enough to buy Edward Steward 6-6-83 p.24 out baseballs and things ike that . We were just more sport . We played against some pretty good team . s They had, like, the r a i lroad teams. The Denver-Rio Grande always had-- they always had a str ong club so we p l ayed, we played against them. And the Salt Lake Tr ibune always had a pretty good ball c lub. Oh , several and t hen the --ah , there's some Hatters that used to have a good ball club . Uptown. Uptown Hatters or something . L HAtters l ike a hat. ES ways Yeah.[Hatters . ] They al nad a good ball club. On Sunday aft e r-noon , 1.e ' d pretty well have it to ourselves. Because t hey would have the Sunday morning games and the afternoon , why , we'd almos t a lways have it all t o o urselves . L You mean the f ield. ES Ahuh , well there would be. You could play--we could play, ah, see, h h two games a t . . 1 There d t e same time on t e Municipa. was a gran stand up at 8th East and 13th South and t hen therewas another grandstand back o n 7t h East and about - -that would be about 14th South. So we could play two games at the same time in the same park. L Didyou have pretty big a udiences? Didjou have people come out and watch you? ES YEah , we. Gosh yes . I' d say we- - sometimes have 4 or five hundred . people out there. And around here, I thought t hat was pretty good . L Good size, yeah . ES Well, the bleechers -- we had bleechers built . They would be filled up and peopl e-,ould be standing out, up and down the third base line . And the first base line. We'd have to have a rope up there' to keep them back . Oh gosh, yeah , we had some good-- had some good turnouts . Well , it was free, you know , for the people. And then they'd pass Edward Steward 6-6-83 p.25 the hat a round we 'd get e no ugh out o f it to buy our b a s e b a lls and tings like that, our uniforms. We had --we had un i f orms just like you guys. L What do you remember especially about the Salt Lake Tigers . When you look back, wha t kind of memories do you have? ES Well, I'd say we were just more or le s s a fun dea l f o r u s . There wa s a lot of competition because we we wanted--we wanted t o say ta.ht we were memberof the team, you know . Natural l y , you'd have to --to fill the bill , you ' d h ave tn holdup your end . So I gue ss , I guess we thought we were pretty good ball players. We were--al ot of times we'd go out of town on these trips, and we'd win. Alot o f times, we'd win our games. IT wa sn't just because we were from Sa lt LAke. We ' d play down at Price, Helper , allthose t owns down there. American Fork. We p l ayed -- L How didthepeople treat an all black t eam . The people c ame out-- ES They showe up and t hey treated us fine . I Now and then you'd hear a slur and maybe they might like call you black bou o r somethi ng like that. You very seldom herad the word n i gger . And tha t wa s me thing we appreciat ed because nobody likes to be called a n ame like that. L Do youreemmebr h aveing getting into fights . Do you remember any fights . Fistfights? ES You mean between our team and the mher t eam? No . We a lways seemed to get a long real well. I don't think we ever had a fight. I was trying t o think. No, I don ' t ever recall a fight . Even here , even inSalt Lak e . No , we were pretty well respected . Wehad a pretty big b a l l club . And we played with the best of them . And sometimes we ' d win too. L Did you--what was your record like . Did you win more than you l ost. Edward STeward 6-6-83 p.26 ES Oh , Id say, defintely we won more than we lost. These guys her e-~ the White Elephants over in Denver. We didn't lose many games. L When you werethem, you didn 't lose many. ES NOt many, no. We went over to Cheyenne. We played all over t he place . Cheyenne, Wyoming always had a good strong team. L Whatmade you go from one team to the other . Whydid you leave the Salt Lake Tigers and play on that team. ES Well, I had a chance to. How did I happen to get over to Denver. I had a chance to go over to Denver with some friends. We got over there and the old car broke down. Yeah . We intended to come back to Salt Lake. But while we were over there, I tried out for the team and made it. Justone time. One time o u t . And they needed a 2nd baseman. And I wasn't a second baseman. I was a fi r st baseman . But I was pretty, you know , pretty handy.And I could hit--I could hit the ball. That ' s one thi ng old Man Ross liked about me. I hit that long ball. L You hit that long bal l. ES Yeah.I hit a ball over a fence down in Colorado Springs . I hit it over the left fie l d fence and t hey say nobody ever hit one with that hit before. And a big f i eld . And Merchant. MERCHANT Park i n Denver. That's not a baseball park or anything anymore . I drive it over t he fence there at Merchant ' s park too. L You did t hat right hand? ES Right rand , ahuh. And that ' s why I do them in. el Old Man Ross, he took to me because I could h i t that long ball. L Old man Ross was the- - ES He was theowner L --the real estate man-- ES Yeah . And we used to called him manager. Owner. Whatever . He had Edward Steward 6-6-83 p . 27 --he had . He didn ' t have any sons. He had t wo daughters . And his wife . He got sick and d ied. And his wife and family moved b ack-- they moved back east . Never heard any more f r om them. L But how many summers didyou play ball? ES I played three summers with them . '30, '31, '32 I think it was. Yeah. And the n I came b ack here and got a j ob . Got to work for Salt Lake City Water Dept. I Erked for them for 40 years and I retired in 1974. L How many years did you box. ES Oh, let's see. I guess I boxed a couple of t imes a f ter I worked for the water dept. Down south, down Price , somewhere down there and boxed . I guess , I've boxed 3 or 4 years. I know I boxed . I boxed longer than that. I-Probably about 5 years . L But how many fight s would you say you fought. ES Oh, gosh , I had to go over 100 . See, I was boxing . Some times, like I say , I boxed 2 or 3 times a week. L that ' s a lot of fights in five years . ES Yeah, but sometime they were only where we ' d fool the public . Cut them down to two minute--two minute rounds. Instead of givi ng four - f our 3 minute rounds. We ' d give them six -six 2-minute rounds . It's a whole lot easier. You get more, so you get more rest in between. You don't wear yourself out. Alot --a lot of people don't know that. I guess now. Any of these things m TV would have to be 3-minute rounds. BEcause they ' d be watchedreal closely. Hardy Downing. You been here a l ong time? [uhuh] You wouldn't kno~ \')r ~ ., ,, Hard~~~ Downing. He was the old fight over here. L Hardy Downing . Edward Steward 6-6-83 p . 28 ES He's the first-- L Is he around any more? ES No, he's been dead for years . He h ad a son about my age. L You know Harry Miller. ES HArry Miller? L He's a fight promoter here . About 30 yers . ES Harry Miller? Is he t he one that handled the fights over here at the Fairgrounds? L I think so. He's a white guy from Denver. ES That name doesn't-- L Doesn't ring a bell. ES Ishould have known . I know George Brown and all those guys that used to promote fights around here. Harry Miller? L That's ok. So Hardy Downing was the one that used to promote the fights. ES Hardy Downing. He had an old-it was an old theatre up on Second South just East of State Street, on the north side of the street. L Do you remember what it was called? (phone rings) ES (returning from call] --leaves me in pain -- half the time. L Hard f or you to bend ES Yeah , bending over- I guess wi~h myback. I do most of the work. If I can get down on my knees I ' d do better. But there 's a lot of time when you can't . You got to be standing up. I work better if I'm down on the knees. Or sometimes even l ying down is better for me. L Like for spaces and pipework. ES Ahuh. Yeah, I think I 've had about my share of that stuff. It tells on you after so many years. Wet. You know . You're in the basement and Edward Steward 6-6- 83 p.29 then you're out in the cold . It--it just tells on you. It's t oo much work. For a guy. I'll be 75 in October. I j ust . L I think the heat just came on.- ES Hasf: it? It hasn't been wrking right. YEah, there's a little coming there [they change locations a bit] . L Youvere talking about being a good long ball hitter. ES Yeah. I used to hit them pretty- -ah, pretty long . Now , the one down therein Colorado Springs . Up t o that time, they --some of the guys tha tplayed down there. Said that's fue first ball they ' d ever seen go over that fence. And of a less a pull hitter . the left field fence. And I was a more I'd always hit toward the line rather than center fi eld. I' d mostly hit right for the line. I usually hit a lot of long foul b alls over there too. [laughs] Get ahead of-­All in all, I think I had a bt of fun though in athletics. Baseball and boxing. L I'm c urious. When you were boxing. How didyou fix your dates as to where you'd box . ES I would usually--we ll, they'd usually write to me. Now, they ' d --alot of times they would send me a wire here. Of course, I was living over next door. That's before this house was mine. See, our family lived on t he corner here It was a big two story house. And it was --this house was ?rt of the property my Dad bought at the same time . And since then, I remodeled it. I 've added seven feet on the front of it. And I ' ve added about 20 on the back of ~t. It was too small. And it wasn't what my wife wanted . And so I-- and I dug the basement out since then too. L I thought the steps were put in a ver y special kind of place . ES Yeah . They-[laughs] used to come in via the back door. Andthen you'd--but it was only p art of the latsement. All it could have down Edward Steward 6-6-83 p . 30 there was a hot water heater and a s t ove that I used to use to heat water. A coal stove . Thatwas before we got gas in here. But ater we got gas, we remodeled and make pretty nicely the place. I like it. L So now those guys thaty:iu used to box with, they used to send you wires? ES The promoters. See, for instance, I used to go clear up to HElena, Montana and Butte. And box in Great Falls. They would -- I don 't know just how they did it. But they got my address and all and they'd send me wires and want to know if I could come at a certain "such" a date. I'd tell them yes or no. Whichever way it worked. And I was very lucky. I never did get hurt. I--that-that-that thumb , that's the only--that's the only thing that I really hurt bad. And that laid me up for quite a while. L How'd you hurt your thumb? ES I don't know Just in boxing. I hit--I must have had it open or something. I didn't--but it sure- -oh, boy. That did hurt. That finger there. [shows hand] I hurt that finger . L Ri ght next toyour, you mean kind of bent. ES Yeah, it's ah. They said they could fix it. But they said if they did , it would probabl y always be stiff. And it would be straight out i nstead of bent like that. So I said, heck , I j ust soon have i t bent like that. It don 't h urt. That one hurts [index] That's have to straighten that out every morning. L Your right pinkie? ES Just --just--it pops when I first work it in the morning .. L So , now, like you're down here ~d you get a wire . Would you like fix up more than one fight in advance? I Edward Steward 6-6- 83 p.31 ES Sometimes. Sometimes They would fix it that way I d idn 't like to take them too much in advance because there's always a chance that you 're going t o get hurt andyou wouldn't want to have to cancel it . But I have-- I have done many times. I've had i t where the guy , you know he's not too rough. Well, you know you Gn beat him with one hand if you had to. And I would sometimes. Like for instance, I boxed Swede Nelson up in Idaho Falls and I had another bout up in Helena, Montana. L His name was Swede. ES That' what he boxed as Swede -- Swede Nelson. He was a riddle weight. He wasn't a bit bigger than I was. He wasn't a puncher either. Then I -I-I beat him out any problems. I fought a guy up in Helena, Montana. He was me of the big guys. He was a rough son of a gun . I beat him [phew-laugh] . I beat himin the last round. I think he had the f ight won, but I knocked him out. And they--they get careless. They forget I had a pretty good right hand. I could drop him with it if I could hit him. And there's another. A colored fellow, black guy, down in Leadville. Colorado. Oh , man, that guy -- I couldn't do anything with him. L He ' s good . ES Oh , he was tough - -he was TOUGH. He could hit. And he was deaf. L He was deaf? ES He was deaf. And that sun a a gun, he could still fight after the bell and a ll, and boy, he hit me and hurt me. One round after the bell. He beat me so bad, I just tossed- -I had to toss the towel in. In the 8th round because I had another f i ghtt.p in Idaho and I didn't want to be all cut up and bruised up for that . He didn ' t cut me up much . But my ribs--oh [moans] he was powerful [praisingly]. He-- I couldn't do anything with him. He outweighed me. I weighed - I could sometimes Edward STeward 6-6-83 p.32 get up to 165 pounds. And that was about as much as I could make, you know, just trying to gain weight . Andhe's weighing out 190. Andit was just t oo much. He was t oo good and big for me . But those-those matches like that. They never got in the paper. See , they put them in the paper up there, I guess, but they never reached the DenverPost or the the - - what do they call -- tha t journal or something. So those fights like that, they didn ' t hurt me to lose because nobody knew about it. [laughs} L That was smart that you threw in the towel because you would have been-- ES Oh-yeah, he could--he could hurt me. L What was it like to l ose a fight like that . I mean, how wouldyou, like, recover? Did it hurt you emotiona lly? ES No, not too much beca use I realised the guy -- he had the advantage over me and he was one of these big guys that had long arms too. them Most of them . Most cf them , I had the reach over and I could beat them . But he had l ong arms too and I -- I just couldn't handle it. He was too strong. He was too s trong and he punched you , oh , boy . Well , you know, you t ake a guy carrying 30 pounds like that. It' s i t's just t oo much, you just can ' t do it. I went with him 8 rounds ,after a sec ., throw the towe l in -- the hell with it. I d i dn 't even get up to the 9th round . I had to throw t he towel in. There wasn 't. Everbody realised, you know, tha t he was too big for me . I didn't hear a boo in the whole crowd. Just - I thought maybe they would A bunch o f old t ough miners , you know. Up there in Montana , they rought guys, anyway. L Came to see a tough f ight. ES They don't care if you got k i lled. As long as they saw through Edward Steward 6-6-83 p.33 blood or somethinglI didn't cut easy . Theonly placer had a few cuts was over my eye . But otherwise, I didn 't cut real bad. L That' s lucky, ES Yeah, I think my skin is soft and if you take a guy whose skin is tight, you know, he'll cut. His skin will break. Mine never. I never did worry about getting cut up much. Sometimes , you know, you're over your eye, becaue it ' s tight there. Andyou got that bone. You acan get a cut there pretty easy. L What are the fights that stay with you, that you remember? [repeats] ES Oh, I can--remmeber I can remember. I boxed old Ed Shepherd . He - Ed Shepherd was through as a fighter . But he was smart. He taught me alot. I guess I boxed him oh at l east a dozen times. But he --we would travel together a lot of times and he would -- he'd fight somebody and I'd fight somebody else. But he--we talked a lot. And he used to tell me a lot of things about-- He knew what it was al l about. L What's the kindof stuff that he toldyou? ES Oh, about how to block this andblock that. How to lead with your right. See , usually , you don't lead with your right hand if you ' re right handed . He said, there's certain times when you lead with your right hand, you're going to get away with it. There's times . when you won 't. And he says , I want you to-- I want to teach you how to l ead with the right hand and get away with it. What you got to do--you got to beat theother guy ' s left hand. I learned a lot of stuff like that. You catch a guy and hit him off balance and gee, you get--youcan really stun him . He was expecting you to hit him with the left hand andyou get him with the left hand andyou got the right n him and he don't even know that right hand is coming . Edward Steward 6-6-83 p . 34 See, he ' s watching your left hand most of the time, and--Cause you ' re going to lead with it. There's an advantge to elading with your right hand. Every now and then. You don ' t make a pra ctice of it. Ifyou get one in and catch a guy coming in, you got him hurt . I've knocked a lot of guys out that way. L Do you like to fight? ES Not particularl y. I didn't realy care for it. It was the only way I couldmake a living . I couldn 't get a job. I n those days . There was ncthing to do . So I playecba seball in the summer time a nd box in the winter time . AndI did that 3 or 4 years , maybe I probably boxed a part of 5 years becauseas I toldyou, I boxed some after I we~t to work for the Water Dept. L Did you ever see anybody get hurt bad during a fight. ES Oh, yeah . I' ve seen a guy get hurt real bad. L What kindof stuff have you seen . ES A g uy getting a concussion. Well, these guys get in a ring I don ' t know--you wonder why they qf!t in the ring. They don't have any idea of how to protect themselvesl I' ve seen guys take some awful awful beatings about the head. And then , with those little, you know , with the gloves on like we used , t hey ' re hard and you- you get t oo ma ny blows about your head, you ' re going to get a brain concussion . ' I 've seen this in more than one. And I ' ve seen guys just get cut , oh , around the mouth and the yes . Oh , it wa s something awfu l . L And they cont inue to fight on? Some of them. ES Yeah. Te--they would , yeah, till t hey s t op it, sometimes the referee If he ' s bleeding too bad , t he referee would stop the figh~ . I ' ve seen guys get mad , too, when the referee would stop the f i ght -\ o \--. c, -., C and they were bleeding like hogs . I don 't think I ever had"a fight Edward Steward 6-6-83 p.35 a fight stopped on a cut. At that fight in Leadville , Colorado. I had to throw the towel in. The all with that. This big dununy pounding me. It was too much. L Do you ever remember winning a fight thatyou didn't think you could win? Going up against someone that the victory was especially sweet? ES Yeah , I've - some of these big guys that I boxed and bea t -- I alwys felt good about that.Really really felt good because I had no business in there really in the first place . The guy outweigh you 10 pounds , tha t ' s plenty. But when they outwiegh you 20 pounds and1rore, sometimes , that' s too much. Casue they ' re too--they're just too big and strong for you. LW What was your s trategy against a guy like that. A big guy. ES Just- -you just got to stay away. Dont--don't get hurt. Just stay away and block him, and c atch him, catch him when they're coming in. That's the way I always get him , just to catch them when they ' re off guard, you know, and they come cha rging in and you 're ready for them , you can just beat them with the right hand. A lot of times, they'll come charging in, throwing theleft or r i ght. And you j ust stand there and you let them, just meet them. And fuey can ' t take it because you're--you're they're coming into it , you see and you ' re meeting them. And you get them. on the jaw there, I dont' give a dog gone how big they are , they ' re going to go down. They jsut can't take it.Nobody can. I j ust read old Jack Dempsey died . That's quite an a rticle he had there. I remember readingabout old Jack Dempsy whenI was just more or less a kid. He was a tough monkey. He fought--he fought for Ha rdy ~~~~~~·Yeah.yeah . He [pause] L Let me ask you, where did you stay when you went on these fights? Edward Steward 6-6-83 p.36 ES Well, in most cases, we'd be on the go. We'd leave town that same night , I f we were barn stomping, we wouldhave to because we'd go tomaybe the next time, we was going to box or some stay there. Or. If we didn't ,t we'd ah drive01 all night, sometime. Itvas a hard game, it was tough. But you'd lose a lot of rst and all , but then you'd get into a town and get a room . Sometimes if there was enough of us , we'd get maybe two r ooms. L How many of you would be traveling at one time. ES No more than 4. Sometimes , we'd have five . But the other guy would just be in the ways. It's too hard to trave!ilfiat . L Were you guys black and white guys together. ES Yeah. L Was thathard find i ng a room together, becausein some places, probably they didn't t ake blacks. ES Well,not too much , not too muchcut here Especially if they knew we were coming. And if once we had been there before . You know, we acted like gentlemen and if you don't cause a whole lot of fiuss, we , you don't have too much problem . L Willie PRice toldme he used to have problems with tha t [repeats] Yeah , he toldme he used to have problems when he boxed, finding places sometimes They ' d have to put him up outside of t own. ES No. Well, we--What we would dd if we were traveling together, sometimes w'e bd wrestlers and boxers and maybe a couple of car loads with us. ANd we ' d try to go get to a motel or something. They generally had plenty of rooms. Took a placelike that and. And we hadn ' t--we didn't have any trouble. I don ' t ever ~emember being turned- -being turned down . I didn 't know Price very wel l . It was Wilie Price, wasn't it? [Yeah ] I knew his mother and his Edward Steward 6-6-83 p . 37 did quite well but I never get to know him. Now, there ' s another boy t oo , I think. LT Thatboxed? ES Now , I don't think he boxed. L You mean a son . ES Yea. he's a brotherto the one that did, to Willie . L Soundslikeyou were l uckier than he was . Soundslikeyou had i t a littlebit less d i fficult in~terms of that . ES Well, maybe so . Of course, see, when I travel , I mostly was always with white guys anyway . And it just didn't seem like I had an-- It didn't seem like I had any problem. Hell, they didn 't treat me like I was any different. And we 'd go t o into these towns . Sometimes you ' d hear a s l ur or someting . I would jsut ignore it. L It did't bother you, you mean? ES Well , i t bother you. but then you just ignore it. Don't let t hem know that ± bothered you. Then a lot of times , they ' d stop it. Of course, i t would come t o a case where somebodyj ~~Bt egging you on or something like that, and then you might get mad . But I didn' t have tha t problem. I never- never tried to go into a place and try to show off and they cant you ' re a hell of a guy, tha t don't. I don ' t think th anybody . Alot o f the guys d i d than the white guys d id. They ' d go into a town and j u s t take over. They'd make enemies. I never did do that. I like to get a long with people. L Playded it more l ow key [repeat s ] ES Well, that's what I ' d say . I know I never had any problems here athough on occasions, I'd go t o theatres here a nd they would want to set you ups t a irs . So thatonly happened once a t that theatre , be - Edward STeward 6-6- 83 p.38 cause I never went back to tha t theatre. And then after you got the-­when they cut that out, well, I haven't been to a t heatrer now , in I don't know. god , how many yers. I just don't go. What's the use of going You've gotc TV and you got radio and a ll. I don ' t particualry wnatot s e e a nything in p articular . I ' d r a ther-I'd r ather stay home. [pau s e] Now, I can remember, I can r emembe r when I was a kid end of tape