Interviews with African Americans in Utah, Albert Fritz, Interview 3

Transcript (32 pages) of an interview by Leslie Kelen with Albert Fritz on February 24, 1983. From Interviews with African Americans in Utah

Mr. Fritz remembers his early life in Michigan, work in Salt Lake City, discrimination, civil rights activities, work with the NAACP, and unionism.

. 7IAf2~~· -~~ -~~/.-?~~ ~~~~-:7 ca~~~_) ·4~7 ]Y ~~ 7"f~~~ >r~7 /o -/2. :g::~~~ ! • h~ ' " ~/J /¥ -~2. Albert Fritz 3rd int . 2-24-83 L curious about: relationships between men and women over the years have changed tape knocking a great deal. More s have changed. The way people relate. What they expect from each other. Roles. And so forth. I was just wondering if you could talk alittle bit about when you were a young man. When you started-- to date women. And what were the kinds of things that you had to go through to meet a woman. And what were the manners and the way you were expected to behave then as opposed to, say, t oday . AF We11, actually, when I was a young boy, at home, I wasn't interested in girls. you know. Evidently I wasn't old enough to consider -- dating or anything like that. It was several years aft erI left homebefore I thought of d ating: And I don't know. I was somewhat bashful . I didn't a ctually know how to approach a girl and ask her for a date or something like that. You know s hytype. So I don't know. It was somewhat difficult t o say exactly what procedure I u s ed. Where inexperi enced in man-woman relationship. And having such a hard time on the road, I wasn't really concerned about women at all. I was concerned about survival. And finally, I did -- I wasn't really sta unchly interested in any p articular person, you know. Li ke beautiful women and looking at them and like. But I didn't know how to approach it. So I don't know it's sort of a difficult explanation to state just how --what method of procedures that I used toward contacting people. More or less, perhaps, because it was many yers that I wasn't really in groups of people you know where I can see women and g i rls and t hat but I had no idea as to how to approa ch them. I'm trying to think o f like - - L When you came here, when you ~ a rted working her e, in Salt Lake. Were there opportunities to meet women. AF No. No. Actually there wasn 't. Because as I s tated earlier, that I worked at the Cafe down on west--between Main And State on Second South. Andthen I went up busi ng dishes at Hotel Utah. But as far as girls were concerned, well, I really didn't see a ny beca use theplace we lived a t there were a bunch of fellows there. Young fellows in the h ome. And we a l l were more or l e ss trying to survive. on what small amount of money we earned per month, which was about 40 $ a month. L A combined c ombi n a tion . AF paid No, each person p erhaps got about 40$ a mnth. L What were you paying for rent. AF Well, I was p aying about 2 . 50 per we e k [for rent ] L So how much did f ood cost you , let's say . you could buy and we' d go home nd combine it . rrhe g uys would cook . Albert Fritz 3rd in. 2-24-83 p.2 L You'd buy stuff togehter. AF Each one would buy a certain amount and perhaps they would cook and share with whatever they had because we only got one meal at the Hotel and the rest you had to provide for yourself. And then when I --I got the job in Kennecott, well it was American Smeleter and Refining Company, well, I had to buy my own food plus pay transportation back and forth to the plant from Salt Lake. So there really wasn't much left. L You'd bring your food with you every day. AF You had to take your lunch with you, yes. Well, later, I earned 3$ a day, when I went out to American Smelter and Refining Co. L That v.as ali ttl Ebetter. AF That was better but the work was hard. And paying transportation and having to there buy clothes, well, wasn't anything left. L Did youget involved in church then AF No, not then. It was several years later before I became--got involved in the church. Although I grew up in the church at home. L In the methodist church. AF Yes. Then, we would - along with my mother--she would take us to prayer meeting every Wed. night and on Sunday, we weren't permitted to shoot marbles or anuthing like that. We went to church1 sunday school and then church all day. L So did this upbringing, sounds kind fo strict, AF Yes L Did that influence you in terms of making you shy. AF Oh, definitely. It still influences me even to this day. Very much so. Because she was a wonderful woman. And, she provided for us as best she could. L So, I assume like most young men, is it fair to assume that you were atttracted to women. AF well, not, as a I say, it was several years when I left. I left home. I was attratcted to them, yes, but I didn't know how to approach them. L What did you figure out finally. What method did you figure out on. AF What method--! guess being around where they were perhaps. I'd begin to talk to them. And becameinterested. L You must of been a good catch. You're making goodrroney. AF 3$ a day wasn't very much money then. When you considered eyerything else. At that time, young boys and girls, perhaps the girls were more interested in the boys than the boys were in be girls. The boys, you know, likeiwent to baseball games. I went ot movies. You know, alot. Alone. things like that. L What movies did you go to see. AF Well,themovies were here in Salt Lake. Went upstairs. Upstairs to the movies. _ , _, ,..,, _ __ .!...1--1 Albert Fritz 3rd in. 2-24-83 p.3 I quess . Theatre on second south there. And two boys with me. The Burne~t Boys. And we went and sat downstairs and then the usher came back and touched me on the shoulders and said, you an't sit here. You have to go upstairs. So I told theboys , I said, you boys sit here and I'll go up and talk to the manager. So we spent a long time in the office, talking to him. I stalled long enough t hat they could see the show . Sothen he refunded the money so we went to another show that we could sit downstairs. A little place, an old Empire Theatre that was on State Street. So we went downstairs . The shows then was about 20¢. L So for the pice of a show, you got to see two. AF Yes. I. didn't. But they did. L There was,. one place in t own that did let you come in. AF No, the theaters would let you in. L I meant on the downstairs. AF Well, yes, because they only had the down--there was about two thaters or 3 but they only had the downstairs. There was no upstairs but you had to sit in the back. -- In the back of the theatre. Either go right down in the very front, certain seats reserved for blacks inthe front. You had to sit close to the screen L Those are the worst seats. AF Yes. The reason they sat downstairs was because --they were little--well, crummy thea tres , actually. You know, 3rd rate theatre. L How did some one like you meet women? In church? AF Well, it wasn't in church.It was in the -- whe.n I lived out --I moved out to Garfield. I had what you call a bunk house. They had different people in the place . Different, more or less Mexican people and a few blacks. There wasn't many blacks, more mexican people. So I lived in there. L Called a house. AF No it was just a big place, what they call a bunk house. Is where each one had a room, just like barraks. Each had a room. [wherewas this] This was out at GArfield. The town now has been many been demolished actually. When the government came along and told the Am. Smelting and Refin. Co. they had to improve the facilities in the home there. Because it wasn't modern. Then they had to close them down because it cost them too much to modernize them. L Do you have picture of bunkhouse. AF No,I dont have one . I don't know of anyone now that had one. But the people lived inthere. There was a store down there that you could get your meals. And you had a checkoff. You signed and then on pay day, they would deduct out what you ate or bought from the stor e. They had maybe a few pairs of shoes and you bought groceries to cook for yourself. ALBER'r Fritz 3rd in. 2-24-83 p.4 AF Oh , yes. L pecial pants or-- AF Well, overalls is all they had. Overalls and jackets. and work shoes. L Did they sell those there too . AF Yes, you signed up for them. and when payday came, whatever you bought, they'd deduct it out of your check every two weeks. L WEre they more expensive there than in town. AF Yes. L so did you buy yours there or in town? AF Well, for awhile I bought mine there bee aiase I didn't have sufficient money to come to town and buy those items thatI needed and go back. Because by the t me you paid your t ransportation like on the railroad train and then back well, it wouldcost you t oo much. L So they had you . AF Yes. L At the beginning they did. AF Yes. Well there were Greek people there and there were Serbian people there and there was Japanese people there. Andthen there was only one or two colored people there. There was Meixcan people there. And the people stayed there, that was before the union organized so that in the event they did organize, well, they had the pople living on company property that they could go up and operate the plant. L Back to theoriginal topic: was there women in thebunkhouse working there. AF There wasno women there, working, no defintely not. It was all men. There were no women working there. L AT that point, were there people living around there. AF There were familie s . Living there. The Serbian people had families. And some of the Mexican people had families. The Japanese people, there was a few of them who had familiy. And then the Japanese people had of their own. In fact, they lived, a bunch of J apanese men, you know, they prepared their own food also. L They had their own place. AF Yes. L Were they the only ones that had their own place? AF Yes. The ..J. apanese people were- ·- They were, evidenl ty, I don I t know how long they'd been there. But, they were very consciencious and very industrious poeple. But they had dirty jobs out there and I guess they kept them because they were goodworkers. But yet they put them onthe dirtiest jobs they had. L Dirtier than yours. '1\°t1'• Albert Frit z 3rd int . 2-24- 83 p . 5 L Sounded like it couldn't-- AF It couldn't. It was not. L So who did you meet there? AF There? Well, as I said, there were no women there. There was one family that then lived there. And I met this woman afterwards. She was a young girl. She was in high school actually. L You were pretty young too. AF L AF L Yes. She was going-- junior high or high school because they would take the bus over to the town which was about 2 miles away to attend school. [twon?] That was Garfield. See, they had the smelter camp which is where I lived because the town of Garfield didn;t let colored people live.m the town. This wa s a fact. The town of Magna Utah didn't permit colored people to live in the town. How could they stop it. How could they stop it? They had a sign up there and they didn't rent to you, that was a way to s top you. They had a sign up. AF They had signs up: We don not serve colored. That was in the town of Magna. In the town of Garfield. They had a little town of Garfield, what they call town ++. L What was Bingham like. AF There Well, Bingham was a good town. was a lot o f Mexican people lived up there. L But Binghamwas more liberal. AF It wa.smore liberal but there wereno blacks working in Bingham. At one time, there was only one black worker in Bingham. At that time. And the reason, is because he spoke Spanish fluently. And he was theonly one who worked there. He was a boxer. [Name ?] Don 8a~eefl- Paterson. He was atoxer. L WHy did the fact that he s poek Spa ni sh help me. AF Well, I don't know. But he spoke Spanish very fluently. I met him. Years afterward. But he worked there L And that gothim the job, you think. aF I don't know wha t it was. But, I did go up there before I went to the Smelter for work and they just told you rightoff, right off they didn't hire colored people then. L So you met thi s ~ gh schoo l girl that lived h-- AF I don; t know whether she was in high schoo l or junior h i gh school. Yes. L Was she the first girl you went out with. AF No, I went out with a nother one tha t I met through someone a t the Hotel. And Albert Fritz 3rd in. 2-2-483 p . 6 went to the show or som~place. Walked frorrchurch, I don't remeber how . But it wasn't anything, you know, of interest and I didn't see her any more. Becaus e r eal ly, I wasn 't interest e din g i rls . I was busy trying to s urvive . L When did you have the opporunity to be more intersted. How old were you. AF Oh, I dori't know. I can't tell you just offhand. I must have been 20--21 I guess. L Did :'{)U start at any one time, getting romanticallyseriously involved with fla;tb somebody. AF L AF L AF L No Did ~u meet anybody. No. No. Well, when did you meet youfirst wife. that Well, was the one that worked that was out there. That was the one--ok. This is tough for you to talk about. AF No, it isn't tough but I don't know. I dont know how to explain it. L --I'm just curious what were the situations--how were times then different than today in terms of men and women ... . AF Well, then andnow. Well, fu.ere's really hno comparison . Maybe because I;m older L 0 and wiser. Ah because people are more liberal. But then, there was such' few colored people i n this city and being a strange young boy in the city, it was very rare thatyou would meet someone. If you'd seen a girl on the street, you're not going to approach her because she'd think, well, you're getting fresh or something. You don't walk down the street and see s omeone and you're going to appraoch them and ask, well, can I come to your house. Began a conversation. And they lookat you and think, well, hey, what's wrong with him. I don' t know him. Why is he ... So, you'd get really brushed off. AF Oh, eys. And then, on a few occasions, they would have dances you know. They would rent a place and havedances. And then I would go there and meet young people and that. But where they were here with their families and I was alone, s ometimes there wa no contact. f£-yetl-- BEcaue ±n,~flo,se during those days, I guess, perhaps, some of them didn't even have a telephone and if you saw didnt' them agian, you know, after a period of time and sometimesyou ever meet some of them a gain, ever . L So it soundslikemeetingpeople wa s real difficult. AF Wll, it was. You could walk down the street in SaltLake and if you SB.W two colored people or three on the street,, you were fortunate·.· They're just weren't any they were scattered an dyou didn't see them downtown because there wasn't many of them. L Did you try to hunt them up at a ll. AF No. No I didn't Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.7 No I didn't try to hunt up anybody. L Did you try to look for people AF No because we--as I s aid, there was a bunch of young fellows, boys up at the home that we lived in up there. And maybe one ofthem would say, well, whoever comes in last will bring in some ice cream or cookies. And often times, one would go to the show alone andhe wouldbring a quart of ice cream thinking, well, I 'm the last one in. Well,they would eat that ice cream. Then they would dis­cover there's one in be toher room who isn't here yet and he's going to bring some ice cream. Sowe sat and ate that ice cream and cookies L So you~kind of entertained each other, youre saying. AF Yes, too. As I stated earlier, there was a noodle house .One or two. On West on First South. The Japanese ran a noodle house and you could go there and you met people there. Sometimes they would congeg~te there. They would go in and have a bowl of noodles and talk to each other and then they'd go their separate ways. I don't think anybody had a car then. I don't recall. L What's the kind of stuffyou guys usedto talk about in those days. AF OH, I don't know. Justlaugh and talk like young people do. Nothing special, you know, at that time, we wsnt trying to get in any say like going to the cafes, , the irst class cafes or hotels or motels and thingslike that. We just weren't like, you know, because most of them had their own homes and that and they would go home. But they would just meet there and just a bun?h of clean, young people. Everyday things. ThenI began to go to the church and that's where I met more people. L so this young girl that you married. Was she white. AF White? No. You couldn't L AF Oh, yes. White then, you didn't find white and colored going out together. If they did, they would go behind closed doors. They didn't go out publically. White and colored togehter: that was out of the question. L Absolutely? AF As far as I knew. I knew of some families that had mixed their father was white and their mother was colored and in some instances their mother was white and their father was colored. L Yes, I've interviewed .... f a ther was black and mother white. AF Right. L HAd }OU gotten into a situa tion like that. AF No No, gosh no. I heard of it. But I--in fact, during that time, I didn't know of anything like that . I discovered it afterwards. Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.8 come out with it, you would have kept it hidden. AF Yes. L Why? AF Well, I don't know. At that time, actually, they were so prejudiced in Salt LAke that if a blakc man looked at a white girl, or a white girl looked at a black man, you know, as though they were interested in each other, it never appeared that way to me. I never even gave it a thought, actually. L What wouldhave happened if people saw them looking with interest. AF Well, evidently, I don't know what woul chave happened. I can't say that. Exactly what would h ave happened. But I feel certain1hat the whites would have been ostracized for going out with a colored. A white girl going out with colored boy. L Is it possible that some black people, or black man, would have been beaten up? AF Oh, yes. L Do you know situations where that happened. AF No. No. I don't know. But.I feel certainthat it wouldhave. Yes, I do too. Yes. There were two fellows that worked at the hotel. And one fellow was beat up by whites. And I think at that time, I don't recall the names even--but yes this one instance where this man was beaten up. See,they didn't have automobiles. Sometimestheyv,0uld rent a car. Go out with somebody else. But this yetlflg one fellow was beaten up. Yes. He was out his young white woman. L Did you know him. AF No, I don't. L But yOu heard about it. AF I heard about it. During that time, but I'd forgotten that until you asked me. As far as his name, I don't remember. But he was a waiter at the Hotel Utah. L In some of the books I've read,they talk about in the south, they expected blacks to not look at whites directly; to speak into their, you know .... did you find that here. AF Oh, no, they looked at them. No, You look at people and that. L Was relationships with whites tense. AF Q Well, they were just disinterested -- it never appeared to me that either one or the other was interested in each other. L Cause the kind of situa tion you're describing, the segregation, where you're supposed to meet your place, wouldmean that whenever there's coon tact w:H::h between epoples, thingswould be pretty tense ..... or keep your place so much you wouldn't have contact. AF Yes., I know. This friend of mine----had been here from way back in before WWI. And he was hat check man at the Hotel Utah. Bill MOrris. And he said there was a club at one time. They called Commercial Club. They called it Commercial Stree·.:- Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.9 And that's street is Richard Street +++.It's between Main and State Street. And it runs north and south. Now, therewas a club up there, they said, and that white and the black went into this club. And there were white women up there. Infact, a t one time, they said Jack Dempsey was a frequenter of that club. L Name? AF Just said Commercial Street Club. that was-- L OK AF and then, some of the--he told me of one instance where this fellow, this white fellow was up there frornthe East Side and evidently they gambled and sold.drinks. L Did they sell women, as prostition. AF No, I don't know if they were prostitutes, but they were up there, I know that, from what he said. And thisone fellow came up there and he wasbroke and he had been drinking. a white fellow. And they sold him -- a fellow got him a quart of whiskey and he gave the man a piece of property up on the east side somewheres. And he evidently - he was a man - white fellow had money and property and for a quart of whiskey, he gave thema plot of property. L Strange story. AF Yes. Well, this friend of mine. I roomed with himand his wife, later. Bill Morris and Eva Morris. They ahd been here. He had been here because they brought a bunch of the black waiters in here.-- Hotel Utah .. but this was a black couple that.I knew-they were my dear friends. people, I roomed with them afterwards. And thenthey brought these black waiters in here to open Hotel Utah. At that time, they had nothing but black waiters in Hotel Utah and Hotel Newhouse. And he told me of these things that happened during those--this is, I don't know whether it's 1914 up to 20's somewhere up there, I don't know when. These thingshappened then. L Did you know times in the 20s, late 20s, 30s - several prostittute homes inthe area. AF No I don't know of any of that. I heard they were there in the~tter 30s there, but I don't know of any--you know, I heard they were there on West Second South. In that area. But I dind't know of any .... L Today on the streets, it's very common b see men and women holding hands and putting their arms around each other .... is that something that you would have seen. AF Oh, gosh, no. You seldom ever see a nybody holding hands, walking down the street and that. Kissing. Standing on the street corne rs, kissing. No, I didn't ever see anything like that. L Women of course were dressed differently. AF OH, of course, naturally. You were in the 30s, of course, ~es. Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.10 L What kind of clothing were they wearing then. AF OH, I don't know, probably a long dresses and that. I don't recall really. Inthe 30s, I really--! guess I was't at the age where I was too concerned about what they wore. L What kind of clothing that you wore. AF Well, I'd getdown and buy a suit, you know, occassionally. L What kind of suit would you buy. AF --I bought one double breasted suit that I can recall. Inthe store down here. Arthur Franks. I guess they're still in business. I bought a suit fromfuere. You know. After working awhile, you could afford a suit. But it was awhile before I could even afford a suit. I justrad work clothes and that. L How much was a suit. AF OH, I don't recall then. Probably 50$ perhaps. Yes', I dont rec al 1. L That's expensive. AF That's a good suit. I guess,I don't know--maybe it was less than that. Could have b44n 40$; 35-40$. I don't remember. In the 30s, I guess, early 30s. L So it took you 5 or 6 years before you bought a suit. AF No, probably atleast 3 or 4. Well, where did I go. I went to work and back to the room I wasn;t socially inolved in anything. I was clean. I had clean clothes and that but having a suit - I wasn't really concerned because I really had no place to go to wear a suit that much. And when I worked, they furnished a jacket for me to wear. And when I went to the plant, well, I had a coat to wear, you know. Just a regular trousers and shirts and that. Coat. That's was about all. L So what happened withyour firstmarriage. AF Well it fell through. L How long were youmarried. AF A short while. L What happened, were yout:Do young. AF Yes. Wasn't smart enough. L Did it hurt you? AF Oh, definittely, sure I was upset overit.That wa s WWII. a :: when we split up. L How long wereyou married the first time. AF OH, not very long. L WHat year? AF Not too llong [he doesn't reallyv..ant to say] But I was really inexperienced and it was one of those things that didn't work out like some marriages do. L Some of them don't. 711:' T ~ 1,~r-.T.T +-"h·=>+- v,....,... 7\r.r1 T ..• -Fr-.v- +-"h"' ·~v-r'l +-; TY>n nr.t.r Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.11 L looking back, what did you learn fromthat experience. [How] AF I learned that I wasn't very smart. Inexperienced. Well. In many ways of life: education-wise . I guess, g enerally, in the ways people live and that, I just wasn't very sma rt. YOu learn that as you grow older. L I'm not following you . What didn' you know. AF Well, when you're young, naturally, you're inexperienced. There's a lot you don't know. L Almost everything. AF Yeah, you know nothing in a way of speaking. Because you-- you know, perhaps you're selfish. Perhaps the person you're with is more selfish. Maybe poor managing or something. It's just those things happen where you're not compatible. L So you'res aying that's what happened. AF Oh, yes that happens. L You're saying this happened to you. AF Oh, yes, this happened to me, I know. Perhaps I was a contributing factor to it but I wasn't ready for marriage for one thing. A lot of times, you get inovolved, you think, well, you're going to take this course and you discover you're not ready f or it. L How did you discover that. AF Well, through every day living. L In those days was it a stigma to get divorced--more than today. AF I don't think so. Perhaps it was . I=e~eR~~= hevergave it a thought. I wanted out and I got out. But as far as, with me, I don't consider it being a stigma on me. L In those days how did people see you. AF Well, I don't know. I --noone ever pushed me with it. Perhaps the was in thebackground not where they would approach and say anything. Perhaps they did look down on you to some degree. Well, as I say, I wasn't concerned about what people thought. Oh, yeah, sure. It just [if] ++ and things like that but nevertheless, you think you're doing .~~~~~~~~- the right thing, you're going to go ahead and do it. L There are--usually , people learn from pain. AF Oh yes. L There's no other method I've found so far . Wha t did you learn from your first marriage about yourself. AF Oh, just offhand, as I said earlier. Iwasn't too smart and I wasn't ready for marriage. L What does it mean. "you weren't smart"? AF Well, in the ways of life. Every day and th i na~ lj ke t:h,-=i t _ and perhaps manag.i nyg oautr f ai. rs. Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.12 L Financially. AF Well, I was on the rocks then. Gosh. I don't know a person who couldhave been worse off than I was. L Was your wife working. AF Yes. Worked at Hill Field after a while. Still working there. Just-- L you were financially struggling AF She was a poor manager. She couldn't manage at :.all. Maybe I couldn't either. With money. Especially money. L Didyou move away from Garfield. AF No, I was living in Salt Lake then. That was in WWII, I was here. In fact, I was buying ahome then. L That's nice. That's a considerable investment for that time. AF Yes, for that time, I considered it a nice home[where?] Overon 3rd south and 10th West. L Do you still own it. AF No. No. Courts gave her the home and she finally lost it. No, I that, I should say not. ++ own L So you went through the court and ended the divorce. They gave her the home. AF They gave me the home with the stipulation that I pay her so much alimony. When y ou figured it out for three years, the alimony would have cost more than the home so I went to my a:torney and he said, give her the home. And I moved out I twas cheaper to make that transaction. L So you lost something there. AF Oh, yes, but then I gained too in later years. I gained knowledge. And perhaps I could say perhaps I found myself, to some degree. In the ways of the world and life and people and this sort of thing. How your country operated. How your state operated. Andthese sort of things. And where blacks, the way theyv.ere treated-- Well, perhaps, let's say thi s--I became engaged in working toward eliminating some of the conditions that blacks lived under. AndI alwaysfelt that way but after living alone, I could see what was happening; I resented if they tell me to go upstairs in 1he theatre , walking into a place that says we don't serve colored here. L The divorce was a catalyst. AF Well,! don't know. I'm not saying that - I'm saying perhaps I had matured more. And learned more after that. I'm not s aying the divorce but I;m saying that perhaps after beingout and in the city more--could see the conditions and knowing how blackswere being treated. Going to a theatre, saying you have to [qo] upstairs. In a cafe, you find a place to buy a sandwich and take it out and eat Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.13 it. I said, I don't no whether I'm expressing myself correctly. But perhaps these are some of the things I began to realise. L You got a 1 ittle fed up with it. AF Oh, yes. L That's an intersting thing. Cause when you think about -- some people went through their entire lives and never maybe got to the~age that you got to. It really does happen-- some people defintely did not get angry. Some people did. AF Some people accepted it. Right. L Right. So--what-~what was going through your mind-- AF Oh, I don't know, Right now I can't tell you what was going through my mind at that time. But I do know that I was resentful of the way colored at that time wereteing treated. They would take your money-for whateeer goods that you wanted. There was a smile on their faces when you went into the stores to buy someting. But that was it. And then the stores, some of the clerks wouldn't let you try on the clothing in the stores. Dry good stores. L How couldyou buy something then. AF You nbought it, took it home. You looked at it. That's how you bought it. That's the anly way you coul <buy it. Well, as I say, I'm trying to think of a word to tell you. AndI'can't come up with telling you what brought about the change.I was laways resentful about--even when I was on the--riding the rods on the hoboeing.~ ~re were certain things that I resented, about people you know about going in certain places. And different towns, not just SaltLake and there's always been a resentment within me and it's still there. You know, people not treated as first clas citizens, in other words. L What did you do during those years. Did youtry to put some of your resenetment and passion ... AF_? Well,there wasn't anything I could do at that itme. As I say, I was in the union and I was showing my resentment there[how?] L Is this somethingyou talked baout before .. AF Yes. L Now, who else in town here, who you knew about, who shared your view or your feelings. AF Oh, I don't know, p e rhaps they didn't express them, but I think all of the blacks shared my views. Perhaps they weren't outsppoken on them. L But did you feel end side one aF No, Ididn't feel alone in what I felt. I felt that other people resented it too, but some of the people the blacks --had been refused so many times until they didn't bother to protest. They went ahead even though they didn't Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.14 L AF L AF there wasn't anything that they could do about it. Because your state and federal officials certainly wasn't attempting to do anything to bring about these changes. By ever those times, there was a. lot of white people that worked with NAACP to bring about these changes. When did you jon the NAACP first . I joined the NAACP in 1939. And what did you start doing with them first. Well, for I justfclid membership and attended the meetings. That ' s what~~ne there wuite a while. There was always talk. We resented the conditions that they encountered. Homes. ++++ buying homes and job wise, And schools. Intheschools -- the children--the parents were resentful towards the way their children were trea ted at school because they used derogatory t erms to them. And --they went to school but they just weren't accepted. That is, in the groups. L thehome you bought. Didyouface any problems. AF OH, I bought that from a colored man . You know. L Did you face any problems in terms of the way you wanted to buy the home. AF NO, what happened. I had a man owned the home. He was an old man and he wanted someone to buy his equity, take over his payments, you know. I didn't have any problems there. It was inthe white neighborhood. There were no otherblacks around there but nobody said anything because in that area, they didn't bother because thi s man had lived there andhe was black. L Whatdid you] think of the NAACP when you joined it. AF OH, I knew of NAACP before. When I was a kid back home. L I know-~what did you think of them when yoou joined . AF What I think--well, I thought it was a good organization. I knew it was the only organization that was trying to bring about the changes. L It was the only one. AF We ll. L There were the unions. AF The union was on the plant. This was entirely different. When you left the plant, the union was there. L Right , but yousaid th et.mien helped fund this. AF Oh , yes, they helped th i s was in the 50s . . l ater .. L Much later. There was ro such activitiy in the 30s or 40s by the unions getting involved m early on. AF No, itwa s the 30s actua l ly . No , they were on the plant . L They didn't get:inovlved in a n ything tha t was going on with their members in town. AF No. They did late r. As I t o ldyou, later, about LAgoon and --Lagoon. Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.15 L Then bey didn't. AF No, at that time, no. L So when you joined the NAACP, ok, who did you meet. I'm trying to sense the atmosphere. AF I met--the people most of those people now actually - I don't know --only one not even one . now. And whe I joined it was in the NAACP then, because some of the older peop le had moved away from the city. Some had died. L Give me some names of the people. AF Well, I'm trying to think. Well, there was Bill and Eva Morris. And Mr. and MRs. Perry Young. Mrs. & Mrs. David Stanley. There was Stanley Sr. And then -- -- David L Who Wl.s the director at that time. AF I think at that time, I really don't recall who was the president. I can't tell you. L What about secretary, or - - AF Well, even the secretary. I don't remember who the secretary was then. Because I would just come from thep.ant and go to the meetings and then go back. But right now, I can't tell you. L Where did they hold their meetings. AF They would hold at the churches. Mostly, the Trinity ++ Church and Cavalry Baptist Church. Because they hadno other place to meet. L Howmany people usually c ame to the mtgs. AF Oh, we didn't have a large meeting. On occassion, maybe, ten, twelve ,15 people. L Any whites come-- AF Oh at that time==I don't -- yes, there were white there. Their names and that I don't receall. There were always afew white people in there. And then in later years there wa s one little l ady there, s he's p a ssed on now. Mrs. Florence Lilliandahl . When we were tyring to get the passage of the public accmmodation pil. She was a little fra i l lady. But she had stamina. And nobody frightened her. She would walk up to the legistlators and tell them hwat she thought. And when shEWent in to aplace to tell them about discrimi nation, she didn't hesitate to tell them how she felt. L That's nice thing to see. AF Oh, yes, there were others there that were very instrumental. In fact, when I went in as president. Dr. Alfred Emort _ wa s on the boa rd. Univesity of Utah. Dr. Francis w orm uth was on t he b o ard . We~ffietl~R-- Wormuth. He died - ·--- - --- George Allen Crockett was on the board. He worked with us. He's retired. Supreme Court Jus tic e . [Cro c k e t t] L HOw didi t c ome abou t tha t y:m go tmo r e invo l ved i n t.he NAACP. Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.16 AF Well, the opportunity didn't present itself. li3eing president was thrust upon m. e . Thefellow that was president--he was going to leave town. He became inovled in some incident. But he was going to leave town and he persuaded~ to take it. L What happend to him. AF Well, I don't know. Itvlas somethin--somethingpersonal, I don't rememebr what it was. But he gave it up and the people tthat was vice president-­the people ojnthe board - nobody accepted it. He persuaded me to takeit, in other words. L What year was that. AF That was in 1955. Because it was inthe midst of ttt~fl±flg printing this pamphlet. And when he left, I took over and then from 56 to 64, I was elected once every year. L I'm curious about the years. 56 to 64. OK AF Through 64 right. L Now the years 1940 to let's say 1950, what was going on in those years. AF Well, we were meeting and that. We weren't making any progress. Because. Well when you had a state law on discrimination, the establishment can refuse you service-­there is nothing you c an do. You c an meet and complain but theieople would get toget-er and meet and they were trying to bring about these changes.-- L How AF Well , they were talking about it. And talking to perhaps people that was head o of the state government. I don't know because I wasn't head of it. But there was complaints -- we--we demonstrated against state legislature. Tried to get them to pass-- L When did you do that. AF That was during the 40s, I don't remember exactly what year. L What did you do to demonstratre. AF We got some placards and walked up there to the legislature. Marched1.p there. A bunch of black people with some whites with us. That's what we done. L What happened. AF Nothing happened. They just didn't pass the bill. The people we set up in the ga llery and the legislatures , jsut you were the r e--j ust like you weren't there. L They just ignored them. AF They ee±eye:ti ignored you and went abouti-.their busines s. L Do you Emember what it was like c arrying placard for the first time. AF No. That wasn't the first time I carried it. L What was the first time. Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p . 17 AF The first time was downtown. [tell me] Well, this was in 1959. Lets s ee. No. Wa it. The f irst time wa s up at the legisla ture. Because 59 wa s later . No . No. Wha t was it like ? Everybody was ecited and happy to be up there displaying these signs. Andlittle children up there. That's what it was like. Gaveyou a good feeling. You were anxious to let them know that you disapproved of the conditions that wer were living under. L So some peopletDok their kids with them. AF Oh, yes. You bet. They had a goo &:l turnout. All the black churches were up there with people. Oh, yes. L Were you aiming at any specific legislation at that time, any specific bill. AF OH, yes, public accommodation is what we were trying to get them to pass. L In the mid-40s, the first one. You were aiming to get them to take segregation off of public accommodation. Motels. Hotels. Restaurants. AF Right. Theatres. There was some service station wouldn't sell you gas because you're colored. L How did the white people f eel about NAACP--that you came in contact with generally. AF Well. There were a few that were ah they just both wasn't interested and they dind't want to bring about the change. In other words--in other words, they resented it. L Did they rresent the organization for leing around, is that what you're saying. AF OH, they've always resented that There are certain groupsnow that resent it for being here. L Who resents it now. AF Oh, I don't know. Theydont come out openly. But they're very subtle with it. Somewhat of an undercurrent thing. There's a few now, that, in fact, just last year, down at -- down at West Jordan, where the Ku Klux Klans are -- I don't know if you were here and read tha t article about what they said about it. They didn't want blacks in the area. It was !i~e a black man I think married to a white woman down ther e and there was an article inthe paper, last year, down in West Jordan. I guess. It came out in the Tribune. L He had the AF I doubt it. I doubt. it. And they did use the name. They used alias as a name and they had a box number whe r e y ou could contact them. It' s in the . in the files . --Tribune. No, I didn't keep the article. L I'm wondering what I would have felt like if I had been in that march in the attd±enee- 40s. Wha t were t he people --were the people on the streets that helped as you v.a.lked by. AF We met up there. We didn't we didn't march from here up there. We met up there. Thecapi ta·1. Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.18 L That makes a difference. AF I don't know. I doubt it. We would have been given a permit then to march. I don't know, I'm just sur mising. L So in the mid-4os , you had this one ma rch. Did you h ave anything else. AF We had more than one march . We had a couple of them then. oh,yes, L Do you:remernber anything i n particular .. AF No. Other than all of us up there. And trying to talk to the legislators. Some of them eignoring you, not coming out of the legislature. And some of them standing around gawking at you. L Feeling that you shouldn't have been up there. AF Oh, yes. They didnt say it in so many words -- but there was resentment. L Who were the people then that were -- AF Oh, I don;t recall. There was different churches. the churches ehp~-r,en~es~t,ee a t represe ntiati.ves up there. and that at -this time, I can't -- I don't recall who some of them were then. L Who was the president in the 40s AF I don't even recal l who wa s the president. there's At that time, like we're talking now. I guess no one -- some of the records we didnt keep. Like we had the pamphlets that we distributed and thingslike that. Evidently, you know, nobody kept them. You know, often times you can l ook back on things and if I would have thought to kept such and such an item or such and such a document. But you didn't think about it then. And that's why the records are not clear as to many of the transactions. Infact, when they organized, I'm told in 1919 was the reason is because someof theblack, young black children, was beat up or something in--in town here somewheres. Now, the people that we reinvolved then, they're dead. Like I stated earlier. Mrs. Ber ++. Well, thelma Stewart Ber ++ she was a young woman at that time and other people -- there's none of those people alive now. When that happened. It's regretable that we didn't talk -- I kept planning to go and talk to her so we c ould ge-afle get this information. But she got sick and then her mind began to wander and we never did get tha t informatin. L It's too bad. AF It is. L Is there anythingtben inthe l ate 4 0s tha tyou could tell me what was h appening on the national scene that had an effect on you personally. AF No, I can't tell you a nything. I do know what happened here during WWII. When the soldiers were stationed h e re, the black soldiers a nd they weren't permitted to eat in c a fes. But sometimes t hey 'd go in befe~e- 3-4- or 5 of them and upset the tables and break a few windows out for. L Did that happen in town or o verby the base. 71,:;, n .: . - h .a... 1..-. ..... -- - .:. -- Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.20 AF Westly Madill. I mentioned him. President of the Seaworker's Union. As he told me, look A.B. Theycalled me A.B.A.B. - I 1 ll back you up. If you need any help, I'll back you. Ifyou join the organization and you've got a few more whites to join. And that's one of the the people that along with the president persuading me in that manner. Cause he was number one in anybody's book. L What was your feeling. At that time. about doing this. AF Well, I-i-i-neaturally I had a fear, of course. Not of people. But that I couldn't handle the organization. That was ey feeling. L It's a big thing. AF Oh, yes. But the more I was into it. The more I guess -- not get more interested but I felt more at ease in doing it. And then when I was invited to different places, the Kiwanis Club. Rot.ary Club. Exchange Club. And these different ones at different times. And, like I said, the Univesrity of Utah--the - Dr. Elliot Landau. And otherr:eople inthe background, talking to me, encouraging me. And theblacks were in there supporting t oo. They supported me. L Which were thepeople you remember in the black comm. helping you. AF Well , all of them that werein the organization. They supported me. I dind't have any opposition from any o f them. L Whowas that though at that time. AF Q Oh, gosh, I don't know. There was Henry Sexton, Harold and Leoma Williams. MAble and Charles Godorn. And Mr. and Mrs. Harmon Cole. MRs. and Mrs. David Stanley. David Stanley Jr. Mr. Mrs. Perry Young. Jack DUncans. And another couple that I'll never forget. And they were the backbone of the actually in starting htingsin Utah, salt lake especially. Mr. and MRs. William Gregory. He wa s an old man and he died. They have a center that's named after her. And tho s epeople - they were elderly people. And also Mrs. Eva Robinson. She was a former prsident. She was there. There was any number of people. It's difficult to remember all those names. At this time. And Mrs. Hopper. She was very active then. And all thse people passed on. You said the Gregorye were especia lly importnat. AF Yes,the Gregorys because this man came here years before and this go-go-go- frail lady, was all--she started the what -- the ++ Thimble Club. Thiswas a black women's club. And they raised money , ha~ rlg baked sales and things like that. And they sold it and raised money to work in the community and also to buil a ++ J regory center. Annie Gregory Community Center. [Integrated. ] Nettie Gregory Community Center. That's at 742 West South Temple. The bldg. sits therernw and it's used. It's used now by blacks and for slow students. They have classes down there. I think the Salt LAke County Board of Education ran it from theBoard of Directors of the Genter Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.21 I serve on that board. L Still on that board. AF Oh, yes. And these are some of the people. There are other people like Mr. & Mrs. Dean L Nimble Thimble Corps. AF Yes. L What is the.,..~-- AF agroup of women got together and made a socia l group like, and raise money and to start put i n the bldg. there to help build.Now, there's not many of those people-- I don't know any of them that's around now. There's one person bu I won't even tell youher name because she's not in the position. She worked .in NAACP. Hermind, you know, goes and comes. Not Min ___ . This woman, ffie lives up here on the East side. No. But she wouldn't be in a position to perhaps stay with your questions . But she's a dear lady, you know. And that. But these people have passed on. Some moved out of the city.But those people, those black people, they have made a wonderful contribution. And then we have the Elks Clubhere, you know, they give scholarships to help young blacks. And those members of that Elks club, they were members of NAACP also. And you had the teo masonic lodges. And they supported us. L What about be Odd Fellows. AF That's it. Thae- You had two Masonic lodges plus the Odd Fellows -- all those people worked also in the community. In the NAACP. L Andyou feltgood about that. AF Oh, yes. L You felt ~hey-e- like you trusted them. AF Well. yeah. Some of them supported. Some didn't. You know, some feel wellkthere's no point in doing saeB=aadthus and so.because things weren't going to change. Well, you find some individuals in any organization - form that attitude. But the majority of them defintely supported us.m Because they were resentful as to what was happening also. Yes. They ahd families,you know. Children growing up here. And being insulted and that. And not live a normal life like any others, seKp= especially whites. L 2 questions. 1: Do you remember your first speech when you first wentout -- AF I don't remember what I s aid. I know I was t alking about when the orgaizations orgnized, yes . It was organized b 1909. The reason: because pepple in the southern states, especially in Sprngfield, Illinois. They were lynchingpeople, kicking them off the street. And he was organizing in New York, 1909. And I was telling about this, oh, yes. I remember tha t definitely. BEca use that'shistory of NAACP . L Do you :remember how you :.felt making your first speech? AF scared. Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.22 Shekn.Perspiration. Dr. Landeau was a wonderful guy. He had me up at the University several times. There were no blacks on their football team. And he was a few more. Oneheard about me then another group wanted me. L Perspiration was running. AF Oh, sure. I was nervous. Of course. Shaking. I had to read. I had to read everything. I had never had my hand on a typewriter when I became President of NAACP. They had a typewriter that wasn't paid for. I had to keep raising enough money til we paid for that typewriter. And I would peck away at my typewriter and get mystuff together. Two or three sheets. Until I began to memorize some of them. L Damn. Had to raise money for a typewriter? AF We had no money to pay for the typewriter. They bought it on credit. L You were paying by the week, I guess. AF I don ' t knw--anyway, when I took over as President, the typewriter was there. We were being pressed for payment. But you get a little money each time, you kept paying them a a littlebit, paying them a little bit until we paid it off. I knew nothing aout a typewrier. Oh, sure I was nervous. L Yiu must have come back home after those speeches wondering what was going on and what effect you were having . AF Well, I felt good knowing tose people that invited me were supporting the cause. They were assiting bringing about change too. And another lady that was very important at that time. Mrs. Esther Landa. You bet. She was a wonderful woman. Still is . And she as in there working with us. L What was she doing. AF Well, she'd invite us out to her house to meet for the board meeting and that. And then she was going out talking about the conditins. That's what she was doing. Oh, yes, there were other people doing it. Not just Albert Fritz. I1 Didyou eJer get threatened. AF Oh, yes, Sure. And I don't remember when the first time that it happened. But Ispoke at the -- I think it's the _ ___ Methodist Chruch, up on 33rd South and 23rd East somewhere. IT's a white methodist church.' L s _ inary AF S~tinary. I 'm not sure but it was a methodist church a nyway. There up on 33rd south. L How do you spell AF Centary but maybe that isn 't the church. Because there 's another centary down on 17th south and fth east . LSO it might not be the same. AF No, it's different. But nevertheless, I was up there one omorning for lloclock Albert Fritz 2-24~83 p . 23 ? service. See, they didn't h ave me on TV. They never had my picture in the paper. They didn't put blacks in the paper there. But one station had me all the time and I would mett up there and ·discussions. and they h a d us on TV. KUED. They startedout giving me a chance on --up there. But the other stations didn't have you there. The newspaper , they would~ put your picture in the paper. But nevertheless, I was going to tell you about that time. I'm not sure that was the first time but nevertheless, I was up there and some of the people from Trinity, left by ~rinity went up to hear me. Especially the Carters and they were instrumental in working with NAACP also. The Carter family. But they were up there and I spoke that morning. And there was a newspaper reporter there from the Tribune and he wrote up what I had said. And then the minister then - he had us at his house to dinner. The MEthodist church up there. Afterwards. But fue next day, inthe paper came out--and then I was called that following a coupleof nights later about 3 o clock in the c morning. They threatened me. L What did they say. AF Well, they used some curse words. They said they were going to run every nigger out of the state of Utah and I was going to be the first one. They said, you're the president of that god d amn nigger organiza tion .. I said, no. Yes, you are. We read about you and we 're going to tar and feather you and run you out of town. And we're going to r un every nigger out of the state of Utah. And I was L going to be the first one. I used to sit by my window, over there on the north side. 3rd North and 9th West. With a rifle. eatt~e-~~ey go . And I said, well, ok, you're brave. Now if you feel lucky. If you'll meet me, I'll meet you out anywhere you say. If you come alone. And I says, if you come down to my house and i f you don' t come alone, o,ou better come prepared because I'm going to shoot hell out of a ll of you. And I had the police. I called the~!!~eand told them. But they said, there's nothing they could do--you knowa And I reported it. 'I'wo or t hree times, I left :reetings and was goi ng nome an /cars followed and then I would drive a r ound somewheres else and then finally go home and imt my car in the garage. But that was just one time. There were other times that happened, al so. And letters. I got threatening l etters. Toldme about the nigger organization, which it iwasn't NAACP--it wasnot organize d ' by colored onl y. Whiteand colored at t hat time, b ecause cf the conditions -- thatr:eople were being lynched and driven fromfueir homes for no reason other than they were black. It wa s Dubois wasn' t it? that organized that was one of the instrumental. AF Yes. No, it wasn ' t really, Dubois, he wa s one o f them . L Who else was involved in the Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.24 AF Yeah, but he was, yeah. He was o,ie of them. Yeah. But there were more whites there than there were blacks. I might have who organized that at home. I'm not mre. L I can look a that up--- Who Did you ever confront anybody in a speech. Stood up and said something to you AF Not. They didn't do it that way. Because they didn't come in the meetings. We had black people in the meetings and they weren't going to ge=aH~=approach you in no meeting, you know. Those white people that came ~g the meeting - maybe they all didn't agree with what we were trying to do, but they did not get up and criticize you because they were opposed to the conditions that existed at that time. L So you usually heard fromthese white people through letters and_p1one calls. AF Yes, that's the only way/ L Those are the methods they used. AF Yes, they didn't have guts enough to meet you face to face. You know. L Were there any cross burnings at that time. AF No. No. The cross burning was before then. L Before. There was only one cross burning. AF Well, there were two that I can recall. L The oher. AF Well, the first one and then the other. I don't remember the years that it happened. All I know is Iv'e seen the crosses burning. And I'm sure that somebody around there saw it also at that time. L So there was never, as far a ~ou know, a confrontation between whites and blacks a fighting confr ontation. AF No, maybe unrelated instances where maybe some black might have been out and maybe two or three chased them in their car. So that happened often times. Whites in a car--ypu've seen one or two--they would--but there was nothing serious that happened. L when you <_g:>t a threat. What kind of effect did that h ave on you. AF It hadno effecton me at all. I meaH7 wasmore determined. L That's the effect. AF Oh. L I meant, what did it - -how did you react . AF OH, well, I became more resentful towards people not wanting you to have the same rights as other people. He wasn 't asking for anything special. He wasn't asking for s p cci~l t raatrn nt . Thay really want d to be trea ted l i ke Ameri can.s Given the same opportunity, equa l opportunity. This is what they wer asking then thi s is wha t they are asking now. L Did vou ever reach a ooint whe r e vou rnavbe fe lt thj s crn1ntrv wasn't wor th it? Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.25 AF No. I didn't ever feel that way. L Sometimesyou must have --I'm just guessing--sometimes you must have thought it was a sickness of some sort. You were coming up against. AF Well. No. But I know there was any number of people would tell me - well, balcks, well, I wouldn't go to be bothered.I woulnd;t go out here and talk to them, it wouldn't do a ny good. But no, I did not feel that way.I don't know whatwas in me a t that time. Even now, there's still a drive within me now to bring about more changes than what we have. More educational opportunities. L You mentioned that once. Did--in those early years, when things were getting going, especially when Martin Luther King was getting going. Did you t ry to make contact with them/ AF No. No. WflieR-1- Fist, I want to tell you about fue late Dr . Rathbunch. HE came here, now this wa s in the 50s, latter 50s, to conduct a model United NAtions assembly. And I don;t know why at that t.i!me -- they gotne--somebody fromthe Un. of Utah, one of the professors there. The head people. He was coming in--to conduct the session. And they--everybody knew me then. that is up there because I was president of the NAACP. And he came :~in and I met him. They sent a car fromthe Univesrity. And I had dinner with him. I--had breakfast. And then he conducted the session during that day. He was here all day. And that night, they t ook him back to the airport. And he left town. Hee didn't spend the night here. L Rathbunch. L AF That's right. L why not. AF know tbere Well, I don't know why not. I dont: whether 1:t was an &Yailable place. But he didn't spend the night here . L What was your impression o f him . AF Wonderful He told me how I resemebled him. But wonderful--gosh, I thought I was really fortunate to meet a man like that. And after this session, he conducted a questionand answer period. He was a very distinguished, intelligvent man. And by, you know, meetingpeople like that, it inspired me more. I knew I'd never get the education they had but I knew within me that I could keep working with p eople to try to help the blacks that weren't being given the same opport unity . The same thi ng h appened when Dr. Martin Luther dispatched King came here. He came herein the Evening. Designated a car, ~e'!=\t a car out to the airport. I went with them. Met Dr. King. Was with him and had dinner and was up ther-vvhen he gave his t a lk at the Univesity of Utah. And then after that, he had a questionand answer period also. This went on until he barely had time to get in the limosuine and take him back to the airport. But But I can remember these words verv Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.26 thoroughly. Tha tI asked him: I said, Dr. King, we're having problems here. We're trying to getpublic a c commodation . We're not making much progress. He You said: Ke ep trying. don't give up. You'll get it. Just keep trying. Don't need force. he said. But you keep trying.; twill come. Those were the very words he told me. L What was it like for you t o hear those words. AF Well, it was wonderful. First for me to have the oportunity to meet him the way that it wa s set up. As one of the -- I guess, you would say, good will ambassadors. Forwelcoming him and to the state. ~e~ Because, being black, they probaly used me to -- I don't know in what capacity, I don't know what words to use. To make him more comfortable, evidently. L What was the organizatio that brought him in? AF Oh a group from fue Univesity [name?] I don't remember. I don't remember now what t~ey they're called. But they have the speakers come in. But I really don't know. end side 2 -- ALbert Fri~ 2-24-83 inter3 cont. side 3 -- AF The--he was the ambassador to the United Nations fromNigeria. Kennecott dispatched a car. they gave me the day off. And the personnel director drove the car and there were 4 or 5 people in the car. Then we met the ambassador. We went out to Kennecott to the mines -to the mills and the smelter. And he had --had . flown hl:!_)potamous iin to Salt LAke--to Hotel Utah. An w~ had a hippopotamous lunch. Meat . We had lunch there. Andthis was another I wa s designated to meet some of the dignitaries. L Hippopotamous meat . AF Yes, y es , the hotel c ooked it and served it to all of the people. There was a whole group of p eople in there. I don't recall if the governor was there or not. I'm not sure--I don 't recall who was governor then. whether it was Clyde or Rampton. Could have been Governor Clyde. but I don't even know [if] he were there. but there were quite a few ne~spaper people and tv people there. L What was his mission here. AF I don't know what his mission was. But anyway, he was --they showed him around the city and the mines and tha t. And he was only here for one day. And then he returned to New York. But I don't know what his mission was. L Did you get a chance to t a lk to him privately. AF Not too much because there were always people there. I was sitting beside him and things like that, but-- L Must have been exciting. AF It was. It was quite an experience. Bill Luc as was there. I don't know if you've heard of Bill Lucas he was withthe--what station-- Channel 4, one of them years ago. [L. doesn't know] Well, he was quite an influential individual. He was quite outgoing also. Very liberal minded. But nevertheless, he was there. And so they--he returned . He spent one day here and he returned back to New York. But what his nission was, I don't know. L talk about how union wa s involved. AF They were involved toward paying for it but not the writing of it. L How did the idea of the( d~-~\ 1 ~~ome baek about. '\. ~ .. ·- .•. ,__.., AF through the anthropoligists. L AF Smith. Did he come to you. He came to the organization. He was writing he had formally lived in Idaho and he was oppossed to the conditions here. And even though there was resenemtn, even fromthe people, t he university of utah, resentment toward him. Some of them were- -some werent'. Well, this is why it came about. Albert Fritz 2-424-83 ~ y-"l. 'i 3rd interv. He wanted to -- actually put in writing some of the conditi ons that were happeningin Utah. L and he got some flack for it. AF Oh, yes. L How did the union react. AF Oh, the union didn't -- they had no contact with him. The only way I went to my union to get funds to pay for the publishing because there were no funds in the NAACP. L To pay for the printing. AF right. And I gave them a couple of copies also. L What was the amount of funds you had to raise from the union. AF Well, I don't know. IT was over 300$. L That's not so bad. AF No, no, . they donated it. With no strings attached. L Is that because of ¥OU or because of the union. AF I don't know. I was influential to the Jesident. Itoldhim what we needed, what we were doing. And perhaps I had some influence on him - this is all they could get, anyway. This was sufficient to have it published. L What effect did this have on people. AF Well, I don't know. People had it. Blacks had it. Andothers had it. But, some of them, I don't think even bothered to read it. L Did you use this in any special way afterwards. AF Oh, yes, I would display it I'd have sometimes a whoe case of copies to sell. Sometimes I'd put them on the table and tell them how much they were - some bought; some didn't. I had other pamphlets on the organization and the activities cf NAACP L Did you collect any of the pamphlets. Did you save them from the time you were president. AF I might have a few--(I'll have to look and see. I'll look .... L You said the NAACP didn't have any money. AF No, they had no money because they had no -- officers were elected but they received no pay.In fact, they had no telephone. The telephone was at my home and I paid the bill. They had no money. L The rational organization never gaveyou guys anything. AF No. When you t a.ke out a membership, you would send part of it there and you keep the other here. See, whatever you have-e£-~ha~ had left, and then, you use that, you know, often times when you were meeting at the church, you'd give them a small amount and that. And then , afterward, we'd then fill up the treasury alittle bit But no, the only income was frd"'rnrnemberships. There wasnot other money. available. Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p.293rd int. L Think backabout people who were most opposed - visible people- powerful people who wererrost opposed toward you and the NAACP and others who were trying to do-­who do you remember? AFOh, I don't know. I can 't think of their names, now. Onein particular that I-­said in a meeting--the committee from the legislature -- working down at Hotel NewHouse on bills that they were pending. They were going to--and one was public accommodation ButI can't remember the man's nameat that time. But he had --he took his coat off and he had suspenders and had this long table in the room , meeting room, and he walked back and forth with his hands in his suspenders, this white man, talking against the bill : public accommodations. But rightnow, I don't remember the man's name. He was quite active in the republican p arty. L Politician? AF Oh yes. He [was ] L And he didn't just come f or that meeting. AF No. No. He was a politician. And then there was anotherone down at Provo and I can't think of his name. HeIBs in the legislature for a long time. He finally died. I don't rememberhis name either. But he was very much opposed to any changes. Because I 'addressed a group down there at Provo at one of the motels there. One day there. And they were in there. And I had all these pamphlets and --these copies of this in there--several copies. And spoke, you know, ~wieeT=toward public accommodation. And told them of the conditions that with Provo at the time because Blacks couldnt live in Provo See, a t one time, there were two Nigerian students down there. A young man and a young woman And I would go down and get this young fellow and bring him to Salt Lake. He would stay at my house. He was a student there. The young woman and-he couldn't rent a room in the motel -- or infue hotels -- there. little He lived upstairs in one of the protestant church'es they had a room upstairs. He'd done j ani t or work and he lived there . And he'd tell me when he would walk down the stree t how t the whites in cars would drive down the street and stop and gaze at him because he was black from Nigeria, Africa. And they would look at him and how resentful he was and this young woman. She was in the dorm atory. At first,they didn't recognize her. Then, 2 or 3 would go i n where they had --cooked their meals you know -- associated with her. But the majority of them didn't have anything to do with her. So they both left and they went back East to -- I forget-- to connecticut or one of those states and went to college there. And he usedto correspond with me . And he told me when he left, that he would write a book and tell all about the conditions in Utah and what he lived under. By the way , this young woman, the Stanley fami ly sometimes 1 I would br i na hPr ;:inn c:hi::> h1r.11 l rl c+- :::>H r-.n.-:, V"n ~ ,-.-1--,+- Albert Fritz 2-24-83 p. 30 3rd int. up Friday n ight. She would stay Friday and Saturday rtight~ the Stanley's home and then I would return them on Sunday evenings. To --to their-­back to Provo. L Did he ever write the book. AF I don't know. He left here and I didn't ever receive a copy of it. But he corresponded with me for awhile but then he left afte--· the country and I heard fromhim two or three time after that when he returned to Nigeria. But I don;t know what h appened to him becuase there's been so many uprisings over there and chang-J_ng in government -- I never heard any more from him. L Did 'f)U like him. AF Oh, yes, he was a wonderful guy. Very smart. Very intelligent. You bet. L I'm at a cross road here. I feel like we've done enough for one day---- L Who helped you put togethether the first public acconunodation bill. AF We didn't put it together. The -- Adam M. Duncan wasaie of the sponsors . He was republican But he was a very liberal minded republican. And theothers I don't recall who the others were. But I do remember him very . thoroughly as to what he used to do. I usedto meet with him. He used to come to the NAACP meetings and address the group . ~~Y_o_u_ng republican attorney. He would come in and -- in fact, at one time, a couple of times, he lived ~Rir~P _ on Comanache Drive - way up on the East Bench up there. He rad us in his home for refreshments . And he wasn't very popular with some of his legislators. But he was one. And ibe ct.her one, I don't recall. But this was public acconunodation. But however, that wasn't the first bill passed. 'rhe first one was anti-m:bsogynation. We didn't press for that bill. We werent trying t o get thatbill passed. I think I told you about the reason tehy passed that - - [the J apanese] Yes. We didn't push for it. The Japanese people didn't push for it. Theblacks didn't push for it because we weren't intersted in ma rrying white women or girls. We were interested in getting public accomodation first. and then fair employment practices. L Those were the two primary things. AF Oh, yes. But public acconunodations, we worked on that for years. And nothing else. Because we knew it was irnpossinle to work for equal employment or equal opportunity in housing. We knew that was out. But we felt that public accorrunoda tion was something of a must. L When did you first start working on that. AF Oh, they w re workingm that way back in the -- actually in the early 40s -­I don't remember what year. But -- this attorney David Oliver and people w.-t(fl. workingon that bill then--because he was ALBERT Fritz 2-24-83 p.31 3rd interview a black attorney. Wasn't working on the bill -- was working with the legislators. the blacks, you know. They wouldn't have recognized a bill that blacks wrote then anyway. L And when did it finally pass. rrhepublic accommodations bill. AF Well, that didn't pass until 1965. After the historical federal bill in '64. L So you had failure upon failure upon failure - ~±gRt:? at that point. AF Yes. L Must have been discouraging. AF OH, it was. You bet. I can remember one year, this fellow - and he's avery good friendof mine-- I don't see him very often.A Richard Sherwood ~E~i~ The legislature had adjoined and he and I were the least two people up there from NAACP. Trying to get the legislators to -- L Was he black . AF Oh, no he's white. He's a mmberof thECentary Methodist Church out there m 5th East and 17th Sou. O, no he wasn't black. Sherwood, no. He;s an engineer wit the water works now. Very--well, I wasjust a f from him and his wife. And then Leon and Virginia Ward - they were instrumental. They were --worked -- for it. They're white. But, it's difficult. I don't recall allthse names now. You kow, it's been a few years and we've lost track of some of the people. But there were any number of people then. The churches, the protestant churches went all out up there. And they would go up there and sit in the gallery also. L You were up ther-with Sherwood - what were you doing. AF Talking to t he legislators, complaining to them Pleading with them. TA±k;i:t:1~=­~ e-efie-l=-e- Is what we were doing. And telling them how they should have passed it. That's what we were doing. L What were you s aying to them. AF Well, we wer e telling them about--we were disappointed in them and that __ + public accommodations, you know . Justlikeyou go and talk to legislation and tell them, look, we put up with you. We're diappointed. We're citizens paying taxes, end thingslike that. I don't remember everything but we were just complaining like hell. L What were thereactions you were getting. AF Well, they~re getting their papers and portfolios together and their brief-cuses '-rn<.1 Joing 0 11 ou t of U1e n .0 . A few t h ett ~uppor t ed it. rrhey were talking toyou: well, we tried a nd that. But theywereit:l:te in the minority. Some of them were for the bill, but they didn't get enough support. ~lbe rrt Fritz 2- 24-83 p.32 3rd int . AF Oh, by a lot. L so you were getting wiped ou t . AF And then, finally, it got a closer. But actually, the reason these two bills was passed was ~cause of the historical 1964. Civil Rights Act of '64. L It's interesting . what you're saying you're saying you real ly didn't have you couldn't muster the support during all thoseyears. AF That's right. L Unless it came nationa lly. AF My--that's what happened. L That says alot you know . AF Oh yes. Those were trying years--but we still go back. Some of them-­as i s ay, some blacks thought, well, I'm not even going to spend my time up there. It's--you're not going to get a nywhere with it. L A losing cause. AF Well the majority of the people did-- that's what happens. L Didyou save any articles, clippings, fromthse years. AF I don't know. I'm not certa in. [he'll look ] But I really couldn't tell you ... Leslie wants to recreate a little bit of this time .. he needs help . wants to talk to woman about-two instances: L one is the lynching that took place AF Oh, yes, I heard about that years ago. yes. L Supposedly there's somebody who kknows aboutthat . One man.-- wants to take pictures of Albert. Prsent andp:1st. AF We wre on the picket line. Me and a Serbian fell ow . And oh , I've got anothe r one where they took a group in the shop when I went to the shop. Got an old hat-you can't hardly seeme too well. But theytook a group of all of the mechanical dept. And I was the help in the electric shop and we got this pictre and I'm on that one. I was right in he shop. AF You know, for the first time--that's all I'm going to say.--off the record.