Interviews with African Americans in Utah, Albert Fritz, Interview 4 and 5

Transcript (51 pages) of two interview by Leslie Kelen with Albert Fritz on May 25, 1983 and March 15, 1984. From Interviews with African Americans in Utah

Mr. Fritz discusses his involvement with Trinity Methodist Church, his work at the Hotel Utah, the NAACP presidents and vice-presidents, civil rights, the march on Washington, the Steel Workers Union, mining strikes, boxing, and World War II.

Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 1 L Okay, we're set to go. Well, okay. I was wondering, one of the things we really haven't talked about at all is the Arny, the church here in town. AF The Arny church? L Yeah. AF The Arny church was organized before Utah became a state, had made it to the state. It was the oldest Black church in the State of Utah. And they--when they first organized--I'm told that they held their services in a house on perhaps, from the way they described it about 2nd East and 5th South, someplace in that area. And then again they were over on 4th West and perhaps 7th or 8th South. Somwheres in that area. And then later on, after they became more organized, they met in various homes and finally I don't know how it came about that they ac­quired the land at 239 East on 6th South. But however, I am told that Blacks built the church and at that time it was the largest congregation of Blacks assembled in Salt Lake City, in the State of Utah. L When did you join the church? AF I beg your pardon? L When did you become a member? AF I became a member of Trinity in 1939. I was just a young boy and I attended a few times and because I was baptized in the church when I was just a young fellow. After drifting away from home I came here and decided that I should be in the church. And I have been in ever since. L What made you join it? Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 2 AF I don't know. Just my feelings I guess. I more or less adhered to the teachings of the Bible and I'd never drifted it from it from the time I left home. L You said your feelings for the Bible? AF Yeah, the Bible, yes. The teachings of the Bible. I've read the Bible when I was just a young boy and at various times at different times when I was in service, they taught from the Bible, spoke from the Bible and during such Sunday School years when I was just a young fellow, why they taught us from the Bible and this is why. I still remained interested in it. Still are. L Yes. What about the Bible stories that you heard or were read to you that moved you? AF Well, the love of Christ and the way he was with people, espec­ially poor people. How he administered to the poor people and how he lived with the poor people. He never had a home, he never owned anything and this is the way some of the poor people are today. He healed the blind and the sick. He raised the dead. He turned water to wine and this is some of the things that is still within me. L Did that help you when you were young? AF Oh, yes, definitely. I lived in a Christian home when I was a young boy and was very instrumental. We even attended church on--during the week--prayer meetings and on Sunday we went to church twice. Sunday school church. L What kind of relationship when you got older and you joined Trinity? Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 3 AF Well I was interested in singing. I could never sing. I'm still trying but then the people, the fellowship when you would go you always felt welcome. Always men and women would come along and shake your hand and welcome here, make you feel welcome. And you just felt at home with those people. L Why didn't you join Calvary. Were you raised Methodist? AF Well, perhaps because I was Methodist and just remained Methodist. Perhaps that was the reason and actually one of the reason, the Methodist was the first church where I knew where it was located. Calvary was there but it was scattered and that was the closest church for me, where I was bussing and dishing at Hotel Utah. So I attended that before I joined. L So you were bussing dishes early? AF Oh, yes, even before that. L You said you joined in 1 39. AF Right. But I was bussing dishes before I joined the church. L Oh, I see. Okay. I thought that by 1939 you would have been working out at Magna. AF I was, I was. L Okay. So you must have joined earlier. AF No, I didn't but I attended earlier. L Oh, I get you. AF Sure. Right. L Did those people--well what kinds of things would happen in church in those days that you remember? AF Well, what kind of things happened. We have Sunday School and we have teachers in Sunday School. We have teachers and super- Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 4 intendents that train the youngsters in the way of the--the way they were taught to the Bible. The minister attends and many adults attend the Sunday Schools also. In order to train the youngsters for a better life. And a cleaner life. L Do you remember any of the ministers from back then? AF Oh, yes. When I joined I can remember there was a Reverend Henderson. I remember him. I remember Reverend Handy and just at the time I can't remember. There was a Reverend Williams. There was more than half a dozen ministers at that time I can't remember during the early times the names of some of those min­isters. L Which one of them do you remember, you know, clearly who had any impact on you? AF Well, at that time I can't say because I was just interested in that I'd go for the singing and the preaching. They spoke real well. But at that time I can't say which one had an impact on me. It was just having grew up in the church. I just after going a few times, then for a while I didn't go at all and then when I went back I could understand that that was the place for me and then that's when I joined. L You fell away as they say, right? And then you came back? AF No, well, I attended, yes. Because of my work. I worked shift work andthree different shifts and there was times when I didn't have transportation then because I had no automobile. You had ~o depend on the buses and then now you walked. Most of the times I walked. I was healthy and I walked a long ways. L You mean you walked from work? Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 5 AF No, no, I walked in the city. L Oh, you walked ... AF In the city. When you come from work you get off the bus and you walk. L So you walked to church, you're saying? AF Well, no I live about sixteen miles from the church now so I drive, of course. L Where did you live then? At the time you are describing. AF Oh, I lived up on Center Street, Almond Street up north of the city, at one time I lived there. I lived there when there was some fellows had a home up there and there was a bunch of young fellows living there. All of us were away from home. We just-­why the six fellows living up there plus the two men, young fellows that owned the home. L So you're saying you were really too far away and you didn't walk down too much? Am I getting this straight? AF What I'm saying is that like when I worked and when I got off work--well, I was up on, way up there on Almond Street and then if I had to sleep to return to work, well by the time I walked ten blocks or so and then back and then prepared to go to work well it was just time--well, time didn't permit. L Yeah. What shift were y ou working in those days? AF Well, I worked different shifts, you know. They had the day shift, the swing shift and what they called the midnight shift. L Which shift did you wind up--did you rotate or did you get one most of the time? AF No, no. You worked the three different shifts. Every two weeks Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 6 you had a different shift. L So for two weeks you would have the graveyard shift though? AF Right. L The midnight shift? AF Right. Yes. L That's a tough shift I'll bet. AF Yes. L Tough on the system to get activated. AF Yes,yes. You were tired. On night shift you couldn't sleep because you had to remain awake at night to work. And after sleeping a few hours during the day, well, you wasn't accustomed to sleeping during the day and it was difficult. L You'd wake up during the day and-- AF Oh, yes. But you'd have to lie there and rest whether you wanted to or not. L And your body would want to get you back in the day. AF Yes,yes. L That's true. I don't think about that too much, you know. AF Right. L I don't have to endure that. AF Yes. L Okay. Thank you. Oh, Sandra, are you going to make that coffee? S Yeah, I'll be back in just a moment. L Okay. S Twenty minutes. That'll give me time. L Okay. s Do you want me to make it first? Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 7 L No, no. I just took it--. Kind of hot, huh? It's okay. You can talk, you don't have to be quiet just because we're on tape. AF Well, I thought you had some questions to ask me. L That's okay. AF I was trying to think and in 1939 also one of the first times that I became interested in NAACP and that's the year I joined NAACP also. There were conditions over in the area of 2nd East and 7th South where the Blacks lived at that time. They were trying, I think I've mentionedthis before, get them out of the area and move them into another area, North Salt Lake around the slaughter house, around that area and people were up in arms and they would hold meetings. NAACP was holding meetings there then. They were recruiting people and they were complaining about being discriminated against because they didn't want them living in that area. As a result of that, I became interested in NAACP. And I joined. L It's a strange episode. AF Yes. L And you mentioned that once before. AF Yes. L But that did die down, right? Nothing actually came of that? AF Well nothing came of it, no. Because they couldn't, the people that were trying to promote that, it just didn't work because they got no support. Mormon bishop and some of thei r _peop le · i n the area at that time, L.D.S. people. L Strange, strange and bizarre. I'm going to hav·e to check that in the newspapers. Of that time to see if they wrote about it. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 8 AF I'm not aware of whether they did or not. L Let me ask you though a little bit more. You said you liked sing­ing? AF Oh, yes. I try to sing now. I like the singing and the, you know, people, yes. We had some wonderful singers, you know. Men and women. The choirs and that and I'm telling you they move you, you know. Give you a good feeling. You know. A satisfied feel­ing when you go in there and you know what's on the outside and you go in there and they're singing and everybody's sociializing, you know. Good sermon. A man speaking from the Bible as to what had happened and during the time Christ was on earth and after­wards and the different people, how they have been persecuted and the disciples, what they had gone through. You'd go way back from Greece and Israel and how the Israelites left Egypt. How Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt, across the Red Sea and these kind of things, you know. These things were instilled within your mind and I believed that and I believe it now. L Yes. A choir does move you. It moves me. AF Yes, yes. L In what way would going there and being able to sing in the choir mean something for you day to day? AF Well, I feel that I'm making a contribution. And as I say, I'm not a good singer. A voice--I can't carry a tune in a bucket but it's something I enjoy doing and it gives me an uplift, you know. Oftentimes I'm alone and I sing or either hum a hymn be­cause it's something that I enjoy. It does something for me. Puts my mind at ease. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 9 L Perhaps maybe you'd say some things you wouldn't normally say. AF Right. L It gives you words, you know. Which hymns do you like? AF Oh, I like any number of them. Just offhand I can't remember all of them but there's an old one they used to sing, the Blacks don't sing it any more but during the time that in the-­during the time that NAACP was having a hard time getting, you know, the rights for public accomodation, civil rights and this sort of thing, they had groups that used to travel to the coun­try and they'd sing h~unns like, "Go down, Moses, go down in Egyptland and let my people go." That was a favorite for many years but they've gotten away from that and then these others that later hymns that is just difficult for me to think at the time because my mind isn't functioning on that, but one of the favorites is, "Precious Lord take my hand." There's another one •.• L How does that one go,"Precious Lord". What are the rest of the words? AF "Precious Lord take my hand, I am weak, I am worn, I am tired." And there's a lot too I don't remember all of the words. It's beautiful. You sing it at funerals and in services. All demon­inations, all sing it. That is, Whites, mostly Blacks sing it. All the denominations. There's, "I come to the garden while the dew was still on the roses." "He walked with me, he talks with me, he tells me I am his own." L That's nice too. AF Yeah. But the titles at the time I sing them, you know, but right now I can't think of them. You caught me at a time when my mind Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 10 is not functioning on them. L What are you thinking about? AF I'm thinking of listening to you and your questions to me. L But I'm wondering is there something-- AF No, no. L --that you'd rather talk about? AF No, no. This is fine. But what I'm saying is the title to a hymn, it's difficult to think of them. You know many of them but there are times when your mind don't register the title. You know some of the words but the titles isn't corning to my mind. L That's alright. That's okay. I like the hymns a great deal. I like the hymns. One of the things I think that people have given this country is song. Incredible, powerful beautiful stuff, boy. Very, very wonderful. I wish I could take some of it and use it in other areas. AF Yes. Well, actually the Negroe spirituals--they go way back. Way back to slavery when they weren't permitted to hold meetings, you know. They weren't permitted to congregate. So they would go out in the fields from what I've read and from what I've been told that the slaves would go out in the fields and they would put buckets of tubs over their heads so they didn't make a lot of noise and sing these spirituals. L They could really carry you through tough times? AF Oh, well, some of those people couldn't read or write, but in some of the--the ministers at that time, I don't know how they managed but they could take the Bible and preach from the Bible. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 11 And some of them were uneducated and they managed and they were an uplift to the people and we had leaders at that time that were instrumental also in helping them. L Still around the same time, 1939, forties, in town who were the Black people that people looked up to. Who were the people who were holding the community together in those years? AF Well, during that time I think I've mentioned some of them be-fore. We had D.H. Oliver, that was an attorney. He was here during that time when he was working as an attorney. L Did you get a chance to meet with him? AF Oh, yes. I knew him well. He was a personal friend of mine. L Where were you guys ..• AF I knew him when I was president of NAACP. He was a ••. L Tell me a little bit about your relationship with him. AF Well, my relationship with him was that he was a member on the Board of Directors of NAACP and he was always working behind the scenes and this is the way he had to work in order to help get certain things like he was a researcher for many White attorneys. But he wasn't permitted to practice but he would research for White attorneys. And he would come in to the meetings and tell us about housing and conditions that people were under. He was . defending people in court when he was permitted. Assisting Blacks that were being perhaps arrested for no reason at all. Trying to get a home or being moved out of a home. And we had the Lodges too. We had the Masonic Lodge, we had two Lodges. L Do you remember any incident with him in court?· Or anyplace? AF No, no. I never did go to court. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 12 L Did you ever see him in action is what I'm saying? AF No, no, other than no. But during the meetings of NAACP, NAACP board meetings and membership meetings, he would tell them about different things. I remember one incident where there was a fellow that lived--I don't know exactly where he lived--on 5th South or someplace over there and a company had installed a furnace in his house, a coal furnace and after awhile the furnace exploded and done a lot of damage to the basement and they had a hard time getting this furnace replaced. They finally managed. And then NAACP naturally had to pay Mr. Oliver for his services because no one else did but he finally resolved that matter. That was one very major incident I remember. L Do you remember the man's name whose basement, whose house it was? AF No. Right now I don't remember the man's name at all. L Why wouldn't the company give him a new furnace? AF Well, I don't know. Well, this--at that time--I don't recall why. L You thought it was a racial incident? AF Oh, yes, we knew that. This is why D.H. Oliver came in. L How did you know that? AF Well, because of the conditions that they were living under here. And what was happening at that time . . L I'm not understanding. Okay. The company that put in the furnace didn't renew it because the guy was Black? AF Well, evidently they--this is what I'm saying. I would be willing to say yes. And finally they resolved it and then they replaced the furnace. But .•• L I'm sorry, go ahead. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 13 AF But, Mr. Oliver, the NAACP had to pay Mr. Oliver for his serv­ices. And it was finally resolved, went back to where the national had to appropriate a certain amount of money because the branch had no money. At that time I was not the president. But the branch never had any money to speak of because the mem­berships then were $2.00. L So even if you had a lot of members, the money would soon be gone. AF Well, then what happened. $2.00. $1.00 went to the national office in New York to help them fight Civil Rights and the con­ditions in the southern states and other sections of the country. And the other $1.00 stayed here. So we had no office. We paid for no telephone because whoever was president, they used their home phone and then they would call over the phone to get the various ones to attend the meetings. Every once in awhile they would send out correspondence, advising them of the meeting but most times it was word of mouth. Because we had set times, twice a month to meet for membership meeting and board meetings and most everyone knew when they were and where they were held, at the CalvaryBaptist, Trinity church. L That was pretty bad, boy. AF Yes. L So you really, when you took the job on, I mean you worked for nothing, you put in your own time. AF Oh, yes. There was no pay because .•• L You had to put in your own money probably. AF Oh, yes. There was no telephone other than the. phone at my house and then •.• they bought a typewriter and when I went in we Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 14 had to get enough money to pay for the typewriter because there was no money there and the company was after the branch. And finally we kept raising a little bit at a time in the meetings until we got enough to pay off, I think, a hundred and some odd dollars. I don't recall. Probably in the files somewheres that we paid off the typewriter, Royal typewriter. L Have you still got that. Is that typewriter, do they still have that? AF No. What happened was the person at the time and this has only been a few years ago too, in the sixties, this, seventies prob­ably, latter sixties, the person, one of the members borrowed the typewriter to use and after she left the city and the type­writer was gone too. L It was stolen? AF It wasn't stolen. She didn't return it to the branch is all I can tell you. L Oh, somebody took it home then? AF She was using it at home. When she left the city she ••• L She never returned it? AF No, the typewriter went with her. L You've got a very nice way, tactful way of saying something without really accusing s omebody. AF Well, this is what happened. I knew the person personally and well, there's no need to bring up names in that. But I knew who had the typewriter. In fact I don't think many others are aware of where the typewriter went. She since married a fellow and they left town. They're living in Detroit now. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 15 L Were you always this tactful? AF Pardon? L Are you always this tactful? AF No. (laugh) Sometimes I'm not. There was times when I was very blunt, you know, when I was dealing with certain issues and people. L What were you blunt about? What are some things? AF Well, when I was lecturing at the Universities, various Univer­sities and the high schools and the elementary schools, junior high schools, oftentimes they would ask you questions, you know, some of the students, White especially because there were very few Black students in all of those schools. In fact I can only recall having Black students in three school that I addressed a group at which was East High School, West High and South High. Those three schools that at the time I can recall, they're the only three schools that had Black students. But since then it's changed. But that's a few years ago. And I lectured at Spanish Fork High School. I went to Utah State and Weber College and various churches around the area, Southern Utah. I traveled on my own. There was no money available so when I liked, if I worked on the shift work and if I'd take the day off during the week, a couple of days off, there was times that would require two days to go where I was going and return, because on a few occasions I spent overnight. But anyway I would work Saturday and Sunday to even up on my pay. L To catch up. AF Yes. And the other fellows, the White fellows in a department Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 16 was always glad to not have to work on Saturdays and Sundays because they had their families. L Right. Were you at that time single? AF Oh, yes. most of the time. I was single at that time, in the fifties. Well, I was married and then I got divorced in a hurry. L That divorce that you mentioned last time. That's the one you were talking about? AF No I was divorced twice. L Okay. Then you were divorced after that? AF I was divorced in the fifties then and I was president of the branch, why I wasn't married for ~en years. After ten years I got married. L Okay. You were married while you were president or not? AF No. I was unmarried. L Okay. So that gave you I guess som~ more flexibility. AF Yes, well, anyway I was just interested in it and I was concerned thinking of little Black children, especially. I don't like re-peating constantly but when you think in terms of them not being ina position say to go to the parks like Liberty Park. They couldn't go swimming. When going to Lagoon, they couldn't go swimming. And in the cities they just weren't permitted because . of color. This went on for a long time. And I was concerned about those youngsters and I still am. I'm concerned about them. L What were some other things that wouldn't, some of the questions that you'd get, let's say. AF Oh, well ..• L That would make you blunt in a response? Albert Fritz 5-5-84 Side 1, p 17 AF Well, some of the questions would be like "What color's your God?" You'd be surprised that they ask me that. L Students or ... AF Students, students in the high school. And then some of them would ask it because you're a little lighter shade than some of the other Blacks, they got the idea you were something other than Black. And I always made it very clear and I wasn't very distinct that I was Black and proud of it. L How did you answer the question about God? What did you say to them? AF What did I say to them? I told them there's only one God and he's everybody's God. I said that perhaps regardless of what you've been taught but there's one God and you're all serving the same God. And I said, "If you have those ideas, if you're taught that, God isn't recognizing you. He don't hear you when you pray." L That says a lot, that question, doesn't it? AF Yeah. Then oftentimes I would tell them when I would tell them about Blacks not being able to say go in a cafe and eat, or go in a theater and sit where they wanted to sit if they could pay the price. And oftentimes I'd say, "Well, there's no difference in people, it's just the 0 pigmentation of the skin." Well, often­times sometimes they would say, "Well, I was told so and so by my family." I said, "Your family's wrong." And I would use as an example like the traffic lights. If I was talking to someone and they'd get in a discussion about Civil Rights and why can't this person do that and that and they'd say, "What do you want laws Albert Fritz 5-5-84 Side 1, p 18 for if we don't want you." I said, "Okay. You talk about not wanting laws but you have that traffic light out there. When it turns green you can go, when it's red you don't go on a red light, do you? Everybody stops. A person has the same right and this is all we want, the same privilege, the same opportun-ities." And I made clear we weren't asking for no special privileges, just equality of opportunity. And this is what NAACP and all of the Blacks were advocating. And they still say this. They're not asking for special prvileges. They have never asked for it. They just want the same treatment as other Ameri-cans, which they're entitled to. In fact Blacks have been in the country longer than many others because the first Blacks that came into the country were not slaves. L Which were the first Blacks that came in? AF 1619. And some even--some historians go beyond that, but they were not slaves. Some goes oh back to 15 .•. L Like the Spanish explorers, maybe. AF No, no. No, no. The first Blacks landed in Virginia in 1619 and they were not slaves. L They were coming from England? AF They came in, they were servants on the boat . . L Servants on the boat coming from England? AF Yes. Either from some place. I don't know. I have a book on it and it tells of the arrival of the first Blacks and they were not slaves. L I'm sure you're right. AF Yes. If I can locate it I'll bring it and let you read it. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 19 L Okay. I'm sure you're right but I also remember that the Blacks claim they came with the Spanish explorers, some of them. AF Well, Estavia from the Northwest. They came in from the Northwest. They landed there. This was in 1500 and they came in and then this fellow incidentally ... L Cross country, didn't he? AF No. He went into Arizona. This one did. And what happened, he went in search of gold. He found the gold and there was no Blacks there so he got in with the Indians and they claimed that he was quite a Lothario. Do you follow me? L Uh-huh. AF And because of that he was eventually killed for, you know, as-sociating with too many ••• L Too many of the Indian women. AF ... Indian women. This is according to history. This is all I have to go on and plus the people I've talked to. L This is part of the group, right? AF Yes. L I know what you're talking about. I've heard the same story. AF Yes. L I've heard the same story. I read one account of it a long time . ago. Let me just take you back though to some of the things, to these groups you talked to before. You know I can't help but think as I have listened to you, you're a private person. You're a very private person. AF Oh, thank you. L In some ways but here you were out in public. And were you Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 20 uncomfortable? AF Was I uncomfortable? No. I told you about the first time in Provo. I believe I did. L Yes, the first time you spoke or the first time you spoke in Provo? AF The first time I spoke in Provo and then the second time I went. L The second time you didn't tell me about. AF Well, the second time I went I told them about the first time, about being at the Joseph Fielding Smith House, I spoke before them and they misinterpreted me for someone else. But neverthe­less the second time I went they couldn't get enough people in the meeting hall because some of the very things that I told them and I think I told you about the Blacks, Nigerians living in there. I think I went through that so we don't want to re­peat. L You mentioned that. AF Okay. The second time I went there the place was packed. And the second time I went this young White fellow went with me, Steve Holbrook. Him and I went down there~ And I believe Mr. Gregory went, William Gregory. I think he did. I'm not certain. But it was different then because the place was packed and they were more receptive. L What happened during that time, during that night, I assume. Was it at night? AF The second •.• oh, yes, it was night, evening. Well, people were there and they were asking questions, you know, · about NAACP. In fact we had a few of them join there and I had pamphlets that we Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 21 would pass out in the audience and leave them with them on NAACP and the history of NAACP and the origin which wasn't only Black but Whites also. And they, in fact, they were on the verge of organizing a chapter down there but they didn't ever get around to it. L Did you ever get a chance to go out of this state into other areas where other NAACP chapters were? AF Oh, yes. I attended a seminar in Acelemar, California. They hold them once every two years now. L You were in California? AF This is out of--it's Monterey. Grove. They call it Acelemar. It's out of Monterey, Pacific It's Pacific Grove. It's right on the ocean, seventeen-mile ocean drive there. And there's a meeting hall there where they hold--in fact I believe this fall they're going to hold the seminar down there. Yeah, I went there a couple of times. L What did you do down there? AF WEll, there were different branches from the West coast. From seven states, Alaska, Hawaii and all the western states. They met concerning the conditions of Blacks in these various states and how they were treated and what they were doing to better the conditions for them. L Did you discuss strategy in those meetings? AF Oh, yes. Then increasing, getting more Black participation, you know, motivation. We had a good turnout. Some very intelligent people there. L Oh, yeah. Who did you meet there that had left an impression on Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 22 you? AF Oh, I'm trying to think. There's a Dr. Claude Hudson. He's been a board member for many years. He's an elderly fellow now and Gloster P. Kirk who was a director of a branch at that time. And I met the Senator Hawkins, from the State of California and Congressman Dillon and Tiria Pittman at that time was a director of the branches and there was any number of people from the East coast and from other sections of the West coast, several states that were meeting. The names at this time, it's diffi-cult to remember, you know. Too many of them. But they all were there working out ways to improve the conditions of Blacks. Getting equal opportunity for. L Were the meetings formal? Or were they ••• AF Oh, formal, oh, yes, definitely. Yes, each group was assigned to a meeting place. The youth, young people were in it also. They had their own meetings and that when you finished your dis-cussions in your various meeting well then you'd go back in the main meeting and you had a spokesman that would represent the various groups and then they in turn would discuss it and if there was questions or anything about some of the things that had been discussed in the meeting, well, they were given, you know, . a limited time to answer to the questions and make explanations on it. L How did you make use of what you learned there? In what way did you ••• AF Make use? L Apply what you learned there in the seminars here? Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 23 AF You mean in the branch? L Yeah. AF Well, in the first place I looked up to the leaders because I've read about them for a long time and I never met them. Well, the way I applied it is by taking a forward step and challenging people and talking before the Exchange Club, the Kiwanis Club, and all these various clubs, Chamber of Commerce telling them what we wanted as Blacks, the same opportunity that others were getting. And I guess I was just outspoken. L Would you be able to reveal what some of your fears were at that time? AF Oh, at the time I guess, maybe I wasn't smart enough to have any fears. L You really weren't afraid? AF No. I'll tell you why. There was times when they didn't ever put my picture in the paper. I was on TV and the University station ..• L KUED. AF KUED. They had me on that station any number of times and Channel 4 had me on. Channel 5 occasionally. But the newspapers never had a picture of me in the paper during that time. L During the time you were president? AF During the time I was president. They didn't put the Blacks hardly in the paper. They'd put the article and then what hap­pened I can remember very well, well this one incidence anyway. I had spoken at the Christ Methodist Church up on I think it's probably 20th East and 33rd South. Up in that area before that group that morning and some of the Blacks went up there with me. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 24 The Carters and some more of the Carter families and that to hear me speak on Civil Rights and what we're trying to encour­age other denominations to work with us toward bringing about the equality of opportunity. This is all that we were seeking. But nevertheless on that particular Sunday there was six of us up there. The minister afterwards, I'm trying to think of his name. He isn't there now. But he's still in the area but nevertheless he's retired from the church. And so after the service, evidently someone was there, newspaper reporters, some­body that wrote it up and we went to the minister's house. Him and his wife had us in for dinner and the next morning, on a Monday morning I went to work and there was an article in the paper on what I had said concerning the treatments of Blacks. And how they weren't given the same opportunity like jobs, hous­ing, public accomodation and this included all public accomoda­tion, so I worked that Monday and .• well, actually that Monday morning, it would have been Tuesday morning. It was after mid­night on Monday about 3:00, my phone rang some fellow called, a White fellow and he said, "Is this that Albert Fritz, the head of that nigger organization, the NAACP?" I said, "I'm not a nigger." He said, "I read here where you spoke up at some church." and he said, "We 're going to run every nigger out of :t.he State of Utah but you're going to be the first one." And I said, "No, if you talk so big," I said, "You come on over and if you come alone," I said, "You'd better come. I'll kick hell out of you." I mean I'd beat him. "But if you're not. alone," I said, you'd better come prepared because I'm going to shoot hell out Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 1, p 25 of all of you." I used to sleep with a rifle by my door, front door, on 920 West on 4th North now. But they didn't ever come so I hung up so he called me back and cursed me and used all kind of derogatory names, but they were going totar and feather me and run me out of the state and they were going to run every nigger out of the State of Utah. But they didn't ever come and knock on the door. And this happened any number of times, but they'd always wait until two or three o'clock in the morning whenever they read where I had been or where the meeting was held and they told what NAACP was doing in the city. L There wasn't any demonstration by White groups, a public one? AF No, no. But they were behind ehe scanes. They would call and write articles in the public forum and call me late at night but no, not that I recall. Unless it was before my time. Side 2 Wallace Bennett was another and the other one I can't think of his name. But Sherm Lloyd's on the picture up there. L Wallace Bennett was too. AF Yeah and then there was another one. I forget the younger fellow. No, they weren't for Civil Rights. In other words, in fact, there was a very few Republicans, the Democrats were talking about it but it had been a very slow process and NAACP, they still, they . maintained at that time Clarence Mitchell. He was the spokesman for NAACP, representative in Washington, D.C. He has since re-tired. There is someone there now and they have always been there to lobby for Civil Rights. But now we're not just con-cerned about Blacks, we're concerned about minorities also. But Blacks were being discriminated against more than any and that's Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 26 why we were focussing on Whites. L Did you get a chance to meet with Lloyd or Bennett? AF Oh, yes, I've met them personally. L How did you react with them personally? AF Well, I spoke with them, of course, and talked to them. Before, I don't know whether I've said this before or not but we went, it was during August that we went back to march on Washington in 1963. L Now we haven't spoken about this. AF Oh, well, perhaps before I go into that I don't know whether I mentioned earlier about Governor Dewey Clyde. L No. AF Governor Clyde, at that time, Republican Governor of the State of Utah, him and I clashed. The reason is that I was working with the union and the union officials tried to set up a meeting with Governor Clyde and some of the Utah Copper Division people because they weren't hiring, the only place they were hiring Blacks was at the smelter, American Smelting & Refining Company. Utah Copper Division didn't have no Blacks working for them, the mines and the Magna mills at all. So me and the two union offic­ials tried to set up a meeting with Governor Clyde so that he could along with Kennecott with Utah Copper Division officials to try to persuade them to hire Blacks at the mines and the mills. But the meeting didn't materialize. L Why? AF Because the Governor didn't show up. And we didn't meet with Utah Copper Division people at that time. L They didn't show up either? Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 27 AF So the meeting wasn't held. We were trying to persuade them, because there were no Blacks there. There are there now. But at that time they didn't. They hired Blacks under the Utah Copper, the Kennecott Copper, but not under Utah Copper, which was a different name. The same company now. No. L So, how did you clash? AF Well, we clashed because I met in his office with him and he was talking before a group of people, first in his office and then was up on the Capitol steps in a public meeting. L Now, before you tell me this, was this before the meeting or after the meeting? AF This was after the meeting. L Okay. AF Okay. And, we sat in the building but I wasn't permitted to speak in the official meeting. They had reporters and that there, but then at a later date, he was speaking up at the cap­itol outside there and I challenged on not doing something for Blacks that the Blacks weren't given any kind of jobs. There was no Blacks working for the city. There was no Blacks work­ing for the state. And we had an exchange of a disagreement in words. L How did that go? AF Well, I don't recall just at the time but I was very emphatic when I told him that I wasn't satisfied with what he was doing, the way he was doing it. Because they weren't doing anything for the Black community. L What did he say? What was his response? Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 28 AF Well, I don't know. I don't recall at the time. My mind isn't adequate where I can remember the exact wording so I shouldn't. L No, no, not the exact wor d1. ng, approxi. mate 1 y1 wwhearet the y. AF Well, in other words that things were going okay. Not in so many words but, you know, we're making progress or something. L And you just aren't aware of it yet? AF Well, there wasn't any. L That was the gist. AF Right, right. Sure. L What would be the consequence of something like that? Over a clash like this. Like what would happen in the aftermath of it? AF You mean now? Or then? L What would be the consequences? AF Well, nothing happened. After all I was just a Black guy sit-ting up here talking to the governor and I was ignored. L What did people think about you afterwards? AF Oh, I don't know. There was Whites and a few Blacks in the audience, but some of them agreed with me, of course. There's always Whites that were in agreement with us because we had any number of Whites working with us and we wouldn't have had, we couldn't have made the progress that we have. Even now we have. L That is definitely true. AF Oh, yes, sure. L The isolation of •.. AF Jewish, Jewish community, they supported us a hundred percent. Any number, yes. L The community supported you? Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 29 AF Well, we went to the synagogue and these people went out and I could say, they must have been representing the community. L I'm really surprised. AF L Are you? Sure. It was lovely but I'm surprised nevertheless. AF At that time there was brave, wonderful people and they were supporting us. Yes. L You mentioned that one was Esther Landahl? AF Landahl, yeah. He was at the University of Utah. Esther Landahl. I'm trying to think of the synagogue over here. L Yeah. AF We met there and they were there and supported us, which isn't now. It isn't being used now. L It's the one that is being used as a restaurant? AF Yes, right. Oh, yes. L And they supported you? AF Yes. L But you don't remember--do you remember some more names? AF No, just offhand I can't. I can't. But they did. L Can you remember a Black man who was in the postal service? In the sixties, maybe who worked with the NAACP? AF Sure. I've mentioned him before, Harmon Cole. L Is that Harmon Cole? AF Yes. He was in the postal service. And there was another Dean, a Mr. DEan. I think his name was ••. L Is Harmon Cole still alive? AF Oh, no, he's been dead. He moved to California and he's dead. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 30 He moved to California. And Mr.--I'm trying to think--what was his first name, a Mr. Dean. Mr. and Mrs. Dean. I mentioned them earlier. L Cole is C-o-1-e? AF c-o-1-e, right. And him and his wife also were very instrumen­tal. They were very instrumental in the movement here, staunch supporters. L So tell me now about the march. How did you find out about that? AF Senator Moss? L The march, the march. AF The march? Oh, well •.. L We didn't talk about that. AF Well, what happened, the night--the national in New York was notifying all of the branches. And encouraging them to send representations from the various states and that's how. It was a mass movement throughout the country and that's how I knew about it. And they were encouraging us to send people there but they had no money to send anybody with. And because of that each different states, like in the city here we had Blacks and Whites supporting us. All the churches, all the Black churches supported us like raising funds to get the fare there, return fare for all these sixteen people. They'd put on different kinds of dinners, spaghetti dinners and dinners for fund raising money like that. Some gave contributions, White and Black. L Do you remember who went, from town? AF They're all in the picture there. L Everybody's there? AF Yes. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 31 L Oh, that's nice. AF Right, it's on there. L That's wonderful. AF And I led the group. L Yes. AF Yes. L Tell me if you can, a little bit about what it felt like. AF What it felt like? I'm telling you--I was so elated and all the people in Salt Lake and people from Ogden supported us. In fact they had people there too from Ogden. But they were evidently--I don't know -whether they got a picture--but this is our group because Senator Moss got us--he encouraged us to come and he gave us lodging at his home and his staff gave us lodging. But we were very elated and we was excited. It was something exciting. You--it's almost indescriable to tell you how excited I was and all of us. Because we raised the money and we had the roundtrip fare for all these sixteen people. Some put money in, they raised money. When we finished we had $125 left, going to Washington, D.C. Sixteen people. You know what we had to depend on on the train? Peanut butter, crackers, bread, cheese, jam. Carried with us. Ate that on the train • . When we got there, SEnator Moss met us at the train with his limousine. Allen Howell was an Administrative Assistant for Senator Moss. And that's where I first met Allen Howell. And they picked us up, took us up to the State Capitol, the Capitol. Took us sightseeing. They was on the march. They were all there on the march in Washington. We stayed at his home and it was, I'm telling you, it just made you feel like you were Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 32 really somebody. It's hard to tell you. I have tears in my eyes when I think about it. What we went through, what we were trying to get. When Senator Bennett sent me a telegram, I don't know whether I still have it or not, telling me not, for nobody from Utah to come to Washington, D.C. on that march because be there was going to/blood in the streets. L Bennett told you that? AF In a telegram. He sent me a telegram. I ignored the telegram. And our people went on. Because the national--Martin Luther King was going to be there and all these people were going to be there and that and Whites and a lot of aliens, foreign people from other countries were marching with us and we went on and on down Pennsylvania Avenue and it was really beautiful. We sat on the lawn afterwards. WE had lunch on the lawn. We socialized. There was singing there. We went to Lincoln Memorial and we set there and we looked at that while Martin Luther King was talking. It gave you an inspiration and a feeling that all you wanted to do was move forward. And do things for the unprivileged of Blacks. And I still feel that way about young Blacks. Because they are the future leaders. Yes. L Did you see Bennett at all on that march? Did you come in con-tact with--- AF We didn't see him. We went to his office. We visited all the Congressman and Senators. He was the only one that wasn't in his office. He'd been called out to a meeting so when we called on him he wasn't in. But the others were. Sherm Lloyd and I forget the other two. Well, Senator Moss, he's number one Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 33 anyway. Because his staff and all that day just had us in their home and took us to dinner and it didn't cost us anything. But Senator Bennett--but all the others did. I can't remember the other Congressman but Sherm Lloyd was there and Moss, Bennett. There was Senator Bennett and Senator Moss. And the others were Representatives. Sherm Lloyd, I can remember him. He was frozen faced, that guy. L No expression? AF No. L (laugh) Frozen faced. AF Well, he was. L But, do you remember Dr. King's speech? AF Well, some of it was what I had read and I heard then, yes. What he said, "I have a dream and that," and people was standing up and they were howling and they were clapping and they were just raving and that, Whites and all of them. You bet. There was so many people there,I couldn't get within, I don't think I was within a hundred yards of him. Maybe closer than that, I don't recall, but I could see him and hear him. L You were real close. AF Well, yeah. L Right up front probably. AF WEll I don't know. There were so many people. It was, it was wonderful and old Roy Wilkerson and all them people there. Roy Wilkerson was head of NAACP then. L At that time, yeah. AF Oh, yes, right. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 34 L So did you come back to Utah with some special ideas? AF Oh, yes. We come back, we all came back, all enthused and the people in Utah, the Blacks and the Whites were working for it. Bringing about these changes. That was in '63. But the state legislature didn't do anything when they met in '64, we wanted merely public accomodation. Like renting a motel room, a hotel room or eating in cafes. They didn't pass any legislature or I Civil Rights until 1965. Didn't you know that? L Not until '65, huh? AF In 1965. The Federal Law was passed in 1964, Historical Feder-al Civil Rights Act. The state of Utah passed it in '65. They had to because the government was going to step in after the law, the Federal law was passed and enforced it and so they passed it here. L Would you say in looking back maybe you thought it then too, that this place was harder to get things done in than other places? AF Oh, yes. This state and the state of Nevada. They had a rough time in Nevada also. L What do you think made this place harder? AF Well, I don't know. I do feel and I have to be honest, I believe because of the L.D.S. influence because they were in control of the legislature and I can't say nothing more. At that time, yes. L They were really opposed? AF Well, they must have been because they didn't pass the laws. L Yeah. AF Right. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 35 L There must be a tough group to fight because they come across as very beneficent, very nice. AF Yes. L They don't come across howling with their teeth bared. AF No. L So you don't see them. AF Subtle. L Yeah, yeah. was that true then too? They didn't come across as real? AF That's true. That's true. We were up there at the legislature trying to get bills passed any number of times and you'd talk to these people and they'd get up and make a big spiel and that, you know, talk to you and that and when they turned to you, they are about face, because they lived in these outlying areas, what we call cow towns. And they were all practically L.D.S. And as a result of that, they didn't want their areas invaded by Blacks. I'm assuming this. L Right. And they thought if they passed this law immediately •.• AF You were going to become associated with them and I think one of the main things and I'll tell you why. I say this and I'll go back a little farther and substantuate what I'm telling you. I think they were more concerned about inter-marriage than any­thing. L That was the main thing? AF I believe. I don't know. This is my feeling. L Okay. AF You know one of the reasons I say that. You know when they pass Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 36 the desegreation in the marriage law? L No. AF In 1963. L How did that compare nationally? Do you know? AF Oh, gosh. The other states had passed it long before. L Many years before? AF Oh, yes. Quite a few years before. Not speaking of the South-ern states. L I understand, I understand. AF Right, sure. Yes. L So that was the real--did you ever hear that concern mentioned? In public? The concern of inter-marriage? AF Well, no, no. They didn't, they wouldn't tell you that, no. It wouldn't--that would bring that out of course not. But one of the reasons why this law was passed, for one thing, it was the late Henry Kasi and his wife Alice Kasi worked with us in NAACP . And I worked in Japanese-American Citizen's League. All the White G.I.'s that had been over in Japan · and they married Jap­anese women. I told you about this. L You mentioned this, yes. AF Right. L Did Uno work with you? Raymond Uno? AF Oh, yes. Him and I were personal friends, you bet. Before he graduated from the University of Utah. Yes, Raymond. Yes. L So you felt that this area was slower? AF Yes. L A lot slower. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 37 AF Definitely, yes. Employment. Housing. I can remember, I don't know whether I brought this up or not. I tried to avoid repeat­ing but sometimes it's difficult ... L It's alright. AF ... It's difficult. Okay. There was a Japanese fellow that was having problems buying a home up on the East bench. They had to see--they went to court over that. They didn't want them up there. That was an incident. I don't remember exactly but Raymond would know, you know, exactly what happened during that time, but there was an incident there where the Japanese, they weren't, they didn't want them up on the East bench. And this family were a very prominent family, of course, and ••• L Was there, was this Black community--did anybody here ever be­come more radical? Was there any ever, you know, in the late sixties, we had the Panthers. Came out from the East and West coast? AF No. L How did the community receive them? AF Well, actually Utah is still an unusual state in this way in comparison to them. Your Black population is small. Sure there is a lot of young Blacks and they here that feel that they wanted to join the movement. There just wasn't enough of them. Sure, you have Blacks here now that resent the conditions right here in Salt Lake City, in the State of Utah. L Some angry young people maybe, huh? AF Sure. Sure they're angry. Because they are jobless and the opportunities--they say there're here but they're not. They're Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 38 very subtle. They have a harder time finding jobs. You go in some of these stores and see how many Blacks you find working in them. L I don't find too many. AF You don't. L I find very, very few ... AF Very, very few. L Yeah. AF Yes. Now, it isn't that they're not qualified. They're far more qualified than they've ever been here. But it just--because of conditions and this is what Reverend Davis and these other mini­sters are working on and Alberta Henry and these other Black leaders. You know, well I'm not going to say it, nevertheless. Go ahead. You have a question. L I'm curious about what you were going to say. AF No. I don't want to because I might be censored later, what I was going to say. It's off the record anyway. L Okay. Well, the thing I'm curious about is, is this radical­ization. I'm thinking in particular. I had a conversation with William Price. You might know his mother, Mrs. Price? AF Yes. L Do you know William Price? A young guy. He works for the Bur­eau of Land Management, in their E. O. office. He's about-­well ·he's not that young. He's about 58, 59. He used to be a former boxer. AF I could have but I don't know •.• L He's on the West side? Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 39 AF I don't know him personally. L It doesn't matter. He talked about the fact that he himself went to see the Panther organization. Went to visit them in the sixties. He said there was some people here, a man here in particular, that did some recruiting here and they were doing some paramilitary stuff here. AF Yes. L Do you know about that? AF No. I know that they used to have a group that would come in and they sold newspapers on the corner of Main downtown. And they were more or less this type of group they were trying to recruit. But as I said, because of the size of the population and that, and it didn't go very far. But the different ones would come in and were selling magazines and newspapers and were trying to recruit •.• L The different Panther group? AF Yes, to some degree. But not on a long scale. They didn't ever materialize to speak of, you know, on a large scale. L How would you characterize. This may be a hard question. How did you characterize a lot of the Black people at that time when you came into contact with them? Were they afraid? Were they enthusiastic? AF Some was afraid. Some was very enthusiastic and some was afraid. Some was indifferent and they'd say, "Well, what's the use. You're not going to get anywhere anyway. What the hell. I'm not going to waste my damn time there." And they'd go about their business. Because they figured it was useless. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 40 L They thought it was lost. The cause was lost. AF Right, yes. Some of them did. But the majority didn't feel that way. L Let me ask you: The ones that were afraid, what were they afraid of? AF Well, I don't know. Probably retaliation from the community I guess. I don't know. They wouldn't come out and express it so I am surmising. L And you said there was a substantial group that was enthused? AF Oh, yes. Sure. Right. L That stayed enthused? AF Oh, yes. L What happened when King was killed? What effect did that have? AF Well, what effect it had. Well, everything stopped and they marched in that. L You marched downtown here in Salt Lake? AF Yes. And then too we sent, we sent some people back to Memphis where they were meeting because of that. We raised some funds. We met down on 1st South and State and raised funds and we had it at Trinity Church and sent some of those people back there. L To represent you guys? AF Yes, sure. You bet. It hurt us as much as anybody else. Even though we were a long ways from it, but after all, he was our leader. He was one· of us. He was a wonderful man and very ex­traordinary. L Yes he was, you know. AF Yes. Yes. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 41 L Did it slow things down here afterwards? Did it hurt people's spirits? AF Oh, people was still enthused. But what's happened. I'm only surmising again and more of that guesswork. Because of the con­ditions having improved to where they are, that some people have become lackadaisical. In other words, feel well, "I'm making it. And let the other guy do what I'm doing." L so, basically, those people that would have fought ten years ago, would now have more money. They don't feel there's any­thing to fight for anymore. AF Well, they feel that we have laid the groundwork. No, they still feel that there's improvements to be made. Oh, no, they haven't given up. By no means. But they feel now because of the progress that's been made and it's up to the younger ones to come in to take hold and move from there. And also, I'll say this: We have many Black educators right here in the city, in the state. And we feel that they have an obligation to the Black community also and not accept where they are and ostracize them­selves from the community. I'll say it that way. L So do you feel there hasn't been really good cooperation between them? AF Oh, definitely not. Because I can remember when there wasn't-­when me and some of the people, the Whites were working through the school board to get Black teachers from other places, trying to get them recruited for Utah. Yes, that's the way things were. But now they are here. Many of them and personally I'm speaking for Albert Fritz. I don't think they're making enough contribu- Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 42 tion to the community. L What do you think they could do more? AF Well, gosh, education wise, expertise in many things, community wise. There's any number of things they could do. I'm no brain trust. I didn't get out of high school. I didn't go to high school. But I'm telling you with my mind I know. L You know that there's a lot more that could happen? AF Oh, definitely. L When you look back--when you left NAACP--what year? AF I did what? L You left the NAACP. What year did you leave? AF I haven't left it. L No, what year did you step down as president? AF Well, 1965. L Okay. Did you willingly step down? AF Oh, yes. I wouldn't accept the nomination anymore. At that time--now they elect every two years--but then every year you were reelected. No I figured that I'd been in long enough. I figured I had made a contribution, yes. Ten years. I think you know. And I'm still working with them. I'm on the board and I'm a life member. Paid $500 to become a life member . . L So, how--in looking back at the people who took over after you, how do you think it's going? How do you appraise it? AF Well, well the fellow that took over after me, he didn't serve very long because he finally left the state. But they've made some progress, they're still making progress. Because actually every person that was elected after I was was far more educated Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 43 than me. L Okay. Do you mind if I ask you some specific questions? AF Not at all. L For instance, let's say, Jim Dooley. Jim Dooley took over a few years after you. AF Right, yes. L How would you compare his aims and his methods to yours? AF Well they were entirely different because the times were differ­ent. L Okay. What do you mean? AF Well, because you had to be militant then to some degree to accomplish something. Because of the conditions where you didn't have public accomodation, F.A.P.C. and your housing. You didn't have that so when he came on these laws were passed so it was easier. He made contributions. They all have. L You're saying he had the laws to back him up whereas you, of course, didn't. AF Right, yes. So we had to just go out here and more or less and the words you used commonly was knock down and drag out, but we didn't do it physically. Words, you know. L How did his methods differ from yours? I mean, when you say he was more radical, what does that mean? AF Well, I didn't say he was more radical. L What is the term you used? AF I don't know if I did say more radical. L Okay. Well ..• AF Well, I don't know. He just--no two people operate the same. Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 44 No, well. L I'm just trying to compare the times. AF Well, because of what he had, you had--you would say city and county officials and your governor, of course, was more recep-tive, you know. L It was Rampton at that time, right? AF Rampton, yes. Rampton was good. Because we helped elect Rampton. He came to the meetings before he was elected. We supported him. But because like when Jim Dooley come on, as I said, the laws had been passed and he just had a different system and naturally he thought perhaps at one time he had more people involved. But we didn't have as many people but because of the situation--at one time there was only about three or four people that when I was was president that actually/running the organization. I was speaking like I had three or four hundred people up here. Four hundred people. Sometimes we didn't have maybe fifty people but it wasn't generally known that, you know. L But what do you mean you only had three or four people helping you that you could rely on? AF Yes. Right. L How many did our Jim Dooley have? When he got in? AF Oh, I don't know. The whole board, you know. I don't recall just offhand. He served longer than I did. He served twelve years, you know. But, as I said, things were different and that. But I don't know. Well we used to have actually when I was president we had more White participation that stayed with us. L That's interesting. Then later on you feel ..• Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 45 AF Yes, well, yes. Because Dr. Sterling McMann, Dr. Ora Jarvis. These people were in there and they were in contact with some of the church heads like Dr. Sterling McMann. He was one of the most brilliant I've ever met. Sharp. Dr. Jarvis, I don't see him very often but they made contributions and there was others. They'd come into the meetings and lecture, as I said, I might have a tape somewheres, I'm going to look. I haven't had a chance to go through the stuff yet. And see if I can find it. L Did Jim Dooley's tactics isolate the Whites more or estrange the Whites? AF No. we had Whites that would come in. Whites come in and join but they don't stay long. They'll work awhile and then they drop out. Why I don't know. We have it now. They come in and they stay awhile and then they leave. L Have you stayed in touch with things? AF Oh, I'm in touch with the branch. L I mean, you know, how often do you ••• AF No, no, not very often because--not very often, no. I'm more or less working with the steel workers union now, you know. But I'm still with NAACP and the church. L You say that you're doing more work with the union than you are with the other two organizations? AF Yes. Well I feel this. They have people there that I feel I can work in with them on committees that I think since I have made such a contribution, minor of course, that · appoint heads of these various committees and let them go out and project Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 46 themselves and bring others in. And work in the community. They're not just Blacks. L so why are you working with the union? What are you doing with the union? AF Well, I'm president of the retired group from the plants. There's about over four hundred people with their wives is six hundred. You know we meet once a month and when they have problems I-­through the union officials on the job there--their insurance and if somebody died, I call and arrange for the insurance and other things like that and I feel I have a personal life. You know at home I have things to maintain at home. You know you can't leave your home all the time and be gone all the time and there's a wife there that thinking, "Hey," It's a time when you let somebody else do it since you've done it through the years, you know. But I'm still--I will continue to work with them always. L You feel, I guess, looking back, grateful to the union, don't you? It sounds like you do. More pleased with the union, any­way. AF Yes. The union done for me that I wouldn't be in a position where I am today to have had enough years at that plant that I could have retired and ge t a fairly decent retirement pay. You bet. Because we went on strike any number of times to gain these benefits and some of those guys were anti-Black, of course, a few but the majority of those guys have backed me up and they still do. The Steel Workers Union. Yes. L I remember, you mentioned once before, but you didn't ever tell Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 47 me how the union helped you fund the pamphlet? How the union helped you fund that pamphlet that you did. AF Oh, I told you. I thought I told you. L You never told me the details. AF Oh, well, the details were, there was no money. And as I told you they wanted to print it at the University of Utah non-union. So I went to the union and explained to my friend that was president, Wes Madill. I mentioned him several times. So he went to the union and they got as much money as they could which was $350 and gave it to me and the branch got a few more dollars and we paid the union printers to print it so we could get that union bug on it. Yes. That's how that came about. They donated the money. L Did the union continue to help you over the years in NAACP? AF Yes. Members would join. A lot of the guys joined the union and come and tell me, "Hey, what did you talk about last night? I read where you--seen you on TV. I read an article. What the hell are you doing, Fritz" Boy, you're doing alright." And some says, "What the hell you doing up there? What are you try­ing to do now? Do you want the Blacks to take over?" And I'd just say, "Well, the hell with you." And let it go at that. Oh, yes. But the majority of them supported me a hundred per­cent. Even now. L Well, now, you mentioned that Madill encouraged you to get into it. AF He's the one that pushed me into being the president when this fellow, Eugene Butler, had to relinquish the office. I was Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 48 elected. He had to relinquish it when the vice-president and none of the board members wanted it, he kept after me for a couple of months. You notice that was May of '56, when they had the banquet, I wasn't even on the board. My picture's not there. Next month, six weeks after that I was president. I took over because he relinquished and left the state. There was an incident and he was forced to resign. L How did Madillhelp you over the years? AF Well, he would push me when I'd tell him, "Hey, I,look I can't do this." He said, "The hell you can't". He said, "I'm back­ing you." And he says, "If you need any help, I'm there." He took out a membership and encouraged others to take out a mem­bership. He says, "If you need me at any time, I'll come in." He'd come into the meetings sometimes and talk before the group. And he was such a strong union man until I thought, "Look, if this guy and this guy didn't get out of grade school and if he could handle the company in his negotiation with the company during contract time and incidents on the plant that workers were involved with and I was one of them that,because of advan­cement." Well he was my idol. And this is how he--I was in­spired by him and some of the others. L Did you ever ask him to do anything for you? Politicking or anything like that? AF No, no. They were working for getting--they'd send lobbyists up to the Capitol trying to get these Civil Rights law measures passed. They had people up there, had one guy, he was the ex­president, Sy, Sydney Lester. He was an A-one politician. He's Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 49 retired now. But he would go up there and he knew all the poli­ticians and that. We had a few of them there that were working. Another one, Clarence Palmer. He was a legislator up there. And Sy Lester and a few more. Well, these guys, through them, they were working, lobbying, trying to get these measures passed. But the opposition were against them. The majority. In other words and so therefore they couldn't accomplish what they wanted until the Federal law was passed. L But you never really asked Madill for anything in particular afterwards? You never sort of asked him to put his mouth, put his actions where his mouth was? AF Other than ••• L I'm not saying it that crudely but I'm saying was there any time where you had a need to ask him for anything? AF No. Other than when we were trying to get as I mentioned, Lagoon. Well he was involved in that. That was one of the things that he took action, took a stand. He put his mouth out there. Took time off his job without pay to meet wiht Bob Freed to talk about changing the discriminatory policy at Lagoon. L Yes. What became of Wesley Madill? AF Well he died. He got cancer and died. A young man at the top of the union. L What year did he die? AF I don't know. In the sixties. L In the sixties? Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 50 AF I could probably find out. In fact we named the union hall after him. I did, out to Magna. They have since sold the hall, but we named it W. J. Madill. Madill Union Hall. L He sounds like a good, good man. AF Oh, this guy was--he just had what you call plain guts. Big Irishman. And he didn't take a back seat. He didn't pass any blows but he'd give them a tongue lashing that lasted. L Oh, yeah? AF Yeah. Didn't use curse words either. L Do you remember anything? AF Well, no. He'd just tell them, "Hey, look, this is the way it's going to be." Like I can remember the first time we set around the negotiating table out to the plant of the American Smelting and Refining Company. Well, they didn't have no--I was the only minority active in the union at that time. That is on the board so they appointed me chairman of the Civil Rights committee and I served there for fiteen years so when we met with company concerning changing their policy at Lagoon, we had o. J. O'Connor. He was the top man at that time. And W. G. Roulard and some more that, foreman and that. We had a conference room out to the plant so we met out there and so the foreman had to give you permission to go down to the meeting. And I was the only minority, a Black. When you set around the table, they looked over there and seen me for the first time. And they were discussing Lagoon. He told me before. He said, "Don't be afraid to talk to them. You tell them how you feel." So I told them. So they said, "What's Fritz doing in here." He Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 51 says, "WEll, he's part of the committee." And at the time that I brought up the policy of changing the discriminatory policy at Lagoon. They said, "Well we'll think about it. We're not discussing that today. We got other business about employee relations"and this sort of thing so it wasn't discussed. But you see they'd always held it in June, Smelter Day. They'd pay you the day before. You could go out there and spend all of your money on the beer and the rides, you know. "Oh you're welcome on them." But this ended it. And so they had this Lagoon Day set up a month ahead and when they said, the company said, "We'll think about it." And so everybody, they give them an hour off early and only a minimum of afternoon people were at the plant because the night shift and the day shift would go. And so we went to the meeting and we were discussing it in the meeting. So Madill had told me. He said, "Fritz, you make a motion that there'll be no Lagoon Day unless all the employees are treated the same." And I said, "Okay." There's three or four hundred people in there. And probably only two or three Black. And I was one of them Blacks. And so I got up and they got to discussing Lagoon Day and what the company had said, they'd discuss it later and I said, "Mr. Chairman, may I have the floor?" "Yes, yes, Fritz, what do you want?" I says, "I make a motion that there be no Lagoon Day unless all employees are treated the same." They looked around, over here had another guy seconded the motion and then the discussion had passed. (laugh) Well, it didn't sink in until after all these White guys left the meeting and they were going to different Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 2, p 52 beer joints, you know. They got to thinking, "What the hell did he do? Hey, what happened here?" And they discussed it and some of them didn't get home until two or three in the morning. And the next day they come out to the plant. "Well that S.O.B. Fritz, what did he pull out there? He can't get away with that." And so one of the board members went down to the office and had have them draw up a petition that we will/Lagoon Day regardless. Because when he said, "Hey, what in the hell, we got White kids. What about our kids. We don't care if the Blacks don't go. We want our White kids to go." They got a petition up two weeks before Lagoon Day. Had a couple of Blacks sign it. L Really? AF They didn't know what they were signing. And I chewed them out afterwards. Side 3 L Go ahead. AF He had the petition and they were circulating it around the plant and one of the Whites signed it. And when they went down to the company with it, this guy was Harold Warnick. He was the guy that had it, so the company had the petition. They called Madill down there. They said, "We've got this petition where they want to proceed with Lagoon Day." He said, "You go ahead with Lagoon Day," but he said the union is not going to parti-cipate because a motion was passed in the meeting and the union represent all the employees. Those guys want to go. You can't recognize this petition because the union represent the men and Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 3, p 53 it has no bearing at all so the company head threw it out and they held Lagoon Day. L That's a tough thing that he did, boy. AF I know it. L I mean he was constantly risking the losing the men. It sounds like. AF Well, some of those guys didn't speak to me for ten years or longer. That's right. Oh, they hated me with a passion. They'd see me coming by and they'd turn their heads to a White guys. You bet. L It's incredible that he pulled that off. Madill did. AF Yes. L What, what--how did he--I mean how did he pull it off? Why did he ••• AF Well this is what he did. I told him. I was complaining. I said, "You can spend your money out there but you can't go on the dance floor and you can't go swimming." And I said, "We've got little kids out there and these Bl~bks got their children, and they're entitled to the same treatment as the other." L Why did they listen? Why didn't Madill have this company •.• AF Well, they didn't realize when I said, "There'll be no Lagoon Day until all the employees are treated the same." L I get you. Okay. AF See? And they didn't realize until after the meeting--they went out and started drinking beer and it began sinking in and by the next morning, gosh, they thought that bastard Fritz ..• L They're locking horns by the next morning. So they didn't speak Albert Fritz 5-5-83 Side 3, p 54 AF L AF to you for ten years Some of them. Some of them. Some of them oh yes. them retired, they'd friendly. Oh, yes. after that? Some of them. nod their head In but L I can't believe this. It's so strange. AF Yes. fact until when they wasn't too L What did the rest of the people think of Wesley Madill? some of AF Oh they thought he was great. Oh, all them guys, the union leaders, them White guys, they all liked him. He was the best union leader they ever had out there. They liked him. They finally--you know--they finally got over, I guess. They didn't discuss it but they tried to look down on me but I held my head up and shoulders back and went on. L Hmn. That's a good place to stop. AF Okay. L You can stop right there. Holding your shoulders up and going on. Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 1 L Are there any particular things that you'd like to--lookirig back on your life--say, that I haven't known to ask about? AF Well, just thinking, I can't think just offhand of anything that you've really overlooked. You've asked practically every ques­tion that I could possibly remember. L Do you want a glass of water? AF No, thanks. L Are you sure? Okay, get me a glass of water. AF It might be nice. Well, as far as I can recall, I think that we've covered pretty much everything imaginable. I don't know of anything special that happened other than what I've said. L Okay. There is one thing--it's okay. There's one area I know we haven't touched upon and something that I've sort of stumbled upon recently. A number of people in the Black community have told me. The second World War changed this community. Pretty dramatically. AF Yes. L And some people feel, especially the older Blacks, the older families here, that a lot of the segregation and a lot of the prejudice against the Blacks in the area is due to the incoming Blacks. Have you ever heard that thing said before? AF Well, not really. I can't say that I have heard that before. Perhaps it's one thing ·that I haven't dealt with that during World War II, I don't know whether we went into what happened when the soldiers were here ••• L No we didn't. AF We didn't go into that. WEll, they had the USO, the YWCA, the Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 2 USO, the building on State Street and 1st South that they used at one time for--they entertained the Black soldiers--the com­munity did. And many of the wives of the men and single women would go down to the USO to help entertain the soldiers and also there was busloads that would go to Kearns where the sold­diers, the Black soldiers was stationed and up to Tooele. They would go out -there and entertain the soldiers like dancing and giving their time with the Black soldiers. And there was any number of times that the Black soldiers, even though they were wearing their uniforms were in Salt Lake City and even though the hamburger joints and these small little joints that just sold hambergers and things like that, you know. Fast food would not serve them. And there was a few incidences where the Black soldiers did knock out a few windows and things like that because they were so incensed over the way they were being treated and when they weren't permitted to go in these places and have service. I don't know if this has been brought out at any time. L I've heard various things about it. Were you ever a witness to any of these things? AF No, I was never a witness but most times I would see what had happened and talk to people and even some of the soldiers. L You spoke to some of them? AF The soldiers told them the conditions they were confronted with when they were at the Y. I used to go to the USO and talk with them. And told them those conditions. L Do you remember what they told you? Specifically? AF No, other than that they refused service and as a result they'd Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 3 probably maybe break out a few windows and upset a few stools and throw things around in the building and walk out. I don't ever remember any of them being arrested. But this happened. L What was the reaction, if you remember, of the people around town to stuff like that? AF Well, I don't know. There wasn't a lot said about it other than that sometimes there was a small article in the paper concerning what had happened about Negro soldiers perhaps breaking windows or something in a building. But they didn't publicize it an awful lot. But the Black community knew what was happening. L Did you feel at that time a split within the Black community in the older time Black residents? And the newcomers? AF Well, I don't know. I can't truthfully say that because during the times there and there wasn't many Blacks in any large number migrating into Utah thatI can recall perhaps there were but be­cause of my place of employment and being out of the city on occasion and that. In fact I actually lived out of the city for a couple of three years but I was in the city all the time. In and out. L Yes. So like you wouldn 1.t remember--you don't remember migra­tions of Blacks, large migrations of Blacks? AF No, no I don't. L Okay. What about the Black soldiers that stayed here after the second World War? Did they tend to form their own community? Or, let's put it this way, soldiers from the South? AF Well the majority of the people that came to Utah were from the South. And again I don't recall their forming their own Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 4 community. Perhaps the older residents of the city were more or less resolved to associate with each other. Because at one time, excuse me, for entertainment I don't know whether you've been told about some forms of entertainment that they had and this was before World War II and after. The lodges, they had the Hiberine Lodge hall on 2nd South, on 2nd East and 7th South. It was quite a nice building there and they had oh, a recreation hall there like they would give dances on occasion. They had pool tables in there. They would have fish frys. The women would fry fish and you'd go in and buy a fish dinner and they had the nice big corner there, wonderful lawn and they socialized there and in many instances they would have what they called a yard party. They would get together and invite their friends and have it on the law~ you know. They'd have maybe it out on the lawn. They'd have like entertainment. Not entertainment but more or less maybe just refreshments and socializing. Then at either one home or another, people, you know, friends would get together and form their own entertainment by having them visit their homes and entertain them on the lawns .• There was some nice homes and that, in their homes and on the lawns. L How did you get invited to that club or did you join something? AF No, it wasn't a club. It was just people. If you knew people, you know. If you were in different churches and that and you knew people, you invited people. L Did you get invited to these things? AF Oh, yes, I was invited to, I don't know, quite a few things. Not to everything but quite a few things. I was included because Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 5 I don't know, people seemed to have taken a liking to me and they were having some pretty nice times and then on occasion they would rent a building and have their own dances. Like the old Rendezvous, which is the Terrace now. They would rent the hall on certain occasions and have a big dance and everybody would go in and nobody was kept out. They'd have dances and at times they'd have formal dances at different lodges. The two different lodges, the Masonic and the Oddfellows and Elks. Either one lodge or another would have entertainment and they would invite people from the different organizations. And they had a nice time and it was very orderly and then some of those people really dressed really wonderful. They were beautiful people. And then on another occasion where the people at Hotel Utah, the waiters. Once a year, this went on for quite awhile, the Hotel Utah would give the waiters and the maids a day to. at the hotel, they'd serve them, they served dinner. Well it wasn't actually a dinner but it was, they'd have just about everything you wanted to eat there, self service like. And had the band there and it was semi-formal and the people congregated there. This went on for quite a few years. And the way you'd get invited, if you knew someone that worked at the hotel, the family of them and then you were invited. They tried to include all of the--practically all of the people, you know, in the com­munity and it was quite a large affair. This went on quite a lot. L Come in. Thanks. Very kind of you. AF Oh, wonderful. And this happened quite frequently, you know. At least once a year. Sometimes twice a year. Maybe during the Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 6 spring or the fall, they would have this type of entertainment. L Would you wind up going to these things too? AF Oh, I would attend because I happened to know someone from the hotel or some friend and they made it a point to invite as many of the people as they could. L And you didwork there a little while. Did that make a differ­ence, the fact that you had once worked there? AF If you did what? L Did that make a difference, that you had once worked there? You were there for a brief time. AF Well, they didn't know. Just a brief time, when I bussed dishes there. No, that didn't make any difference. I had no connection whatsoever. L You just knew people there. AF I knew the waiters there. They had quite a few waiters then, which is now, there's only perhaps maybe only half a dozen of them there now. L Who did you know there at the hotel then? Who did you know there that's not there anymore? AF Well, one of the fellows that I knew and he's just one of them. But there's others too but I'll mention him especially because Bill Morris. Bill Morris had what you call a photostatic memory. I met him shortly after, well I met him down town and even in fact, he was the one that encouraged me to go to Hotel Utah to get a job bussing dishes. I met him on a corner down town. I think I told you of that incident. L You told me you met somebody but you ••• Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 7 AF Bill Morris. And Bill Morris was a hatcheck man there. He didn't get a salary. He checked hats in the dining room and if you went in the dining room, a dozen people, regardless if you gave him a hat or whatever you gave him, when you left the place, he gave you, he'd return that item to you and oftentimes they would try to confuse him by hiding behind someone, tossing him a hat and on their way out they'd say, "Hey, this isn't my hat." He said, "Well, maybe it isn't your hat, but that's the hat you gave me." Without a check. There was him and a fellow by the name of Ben Parks. L He had to remember all this? AF He had a photostatic memory. He was in Ripley's Believe It Or Not. L Is that right? AF That's right. During World War II they wanted to hire him in the Army for him to travel around the country, the Defense Plants. They were so concerned about Communists infiltrating the Defense Plants, sabotaging the Plants and because of that, they offered him a job, the F.B.I., or somebody high up in the government at that time. He refused it. L How come? AF He was afraid that he might probably be assassinated or been shot. If he went to court and identified someone from one of the Defense Plants and so he refused the job. But he worked at Hotel Utah without a salary, as I said, and all that he got was the tips that they gave him. L Was he able to make out on that? / Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 8 AF He got by fine. Yes. Just him and his wife. In fact he built the home before I'd met him. It was amazing. It's on 4th East and 1159 South on 4th east, he built the home. Him and his wife. While they were in the process of building that home before I came to Salt Lake, the people in the neighborhood went in and threw stuff on the floor and damaged the floor and things like that, but they continued to build that home in that area, the Whites didn't want them there. But later years I roomed with them because they more or less accepted me, adopted me, just by way of speaking because I lived with them and I used to tend the lawn and things like that. Run errands · for them. And they ac­cepted me as their son. But I was never adopted. We were just good friends, in other words. L I understand. AF Yes. And so because of that I got to know them quite well. But until later years they began to pay him a small salary. Until then he got no salary at all. Incidentally the Blacks came into Utah, I think they told me then, and about 1912 or 1914 and opened Hotel Utah as waiters. L They opened with the hotel, you mean? AF Yeah, they were the waiters. The first waiters there. L Bill Morris told you that? AF Well, other men, yeah. L Other men did? AF Right. L Who were some of the names you remember? AF Well, some of the names was ••• Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 9 L By the way, Bill Morris, with two r's? AF Bill Morris and •.. L Do you spell his last name M-o-r-r-i-s? AF Yes. And there was a Ben Parks. The head waiter was a Mr. Neal. I don't remember his first name. There was a Mr. Patton. His wife is still alive here. L Is that right? AF That's right. Uh, I forget his first name. And I'm trying to think of some of them. And there was what they called Clinton Jackson, Bus Jacks. He was a fellow there. And I'm trying to think of some more of the names. And my memory just don't seem to function properly right now. But there was quite a number of them. Then there was a Harry Dulan, Alec Dulan. They were brothers. L How do you spell their last name? AF D-u-1-a-n. And actually this Harry Dulan, he's still alive and living in Oakland, California. His brother Alec died. And there was an Elder Greene. Elder Greene was a Seventh-Day-Adventist. He started the Seventh-Day-Adventist here in Salt Lake. The building now stands on 3rd East and 8th South. It's a little church there. And the Seventh-Day-Adventist, just off 8th South on 3rd East. That was their church. But before that, me and some of the young fellows used to meet in Elder Greene's home. We'd go down and meet with him on Friday evenings. We'd ride the bus from Hotel Utah. And oftentimes we'd have to either run back to Hotel Utah or catch the bus in order to get back to work at six o'clock. But he was teaching us, we studied the Bible. Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1 p 10 Seventh-Day-Adventist. And he was just good to the young fellows. And he was a waiter up there. And there was more but I don't recall all their names. They'll probably come to me later. But right now these are some of the things that happened. L You were interested in the Bible? AF Yes, you bet. They was good for me. It was a foundation for me because after just leaving home and studying with him laid a foundation for me. And even though I was Methodist I enjoyed the studies with me because he knew the Bible. You could ask him anything in that Bible and he didn't have to look it over the book. He could tell you where to find it. He could quote the Bible. From any passage that you wanted to know, anything you wanted to know. L It's amazing what people do there. AF Well, he studied and read it day in and day out. He finally died and his wife died. L They lived here throughout their lives, in Salt Lake? AF Yes. Well, they had came here evidently from someplace else, you know. They weren't native Utahns, as far as I can remember. But they came into Utah like some of the others, like some of the rest of us. L Interesting. Do you remember, they used to have comfort stations? AF You bet, I remember the comfort stations. Yes, there was one on State Street and 3rd South. You could go down there and I'm trying to think where the other one was. The bus stations had them also. But Mr. Sam Stewart, Samuel Stewart, he worked down Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 11 there. Shined shoes and cleaned up the comfort station. L What did it look like downstairs there? AF Well, they were tiled and that. They were good. Very neat and clean. Oh, yes. They were kept very orderly and he was more or less the janitor there and he shined shoes :on the side. But everybody went in there, Black and White. L Right. And he used to take people's packages, people told me. You could leave a package there with him? AF Yes. You could lock it up there. He'd lock it up for them if they were going shopping or going to a show and when they re­turned, he'd unlock the lock and give them their package. Yes, for them. He was a wonderful guy. L You knew him? AF Yes I knew him, Oh, yes. Yes. L So much time, so many people. AF Yes, right. And then too there was--it was during the time of sports events like that. Well usually the Blacks--there was some good Black boxers here. L Who do you remember? AF Well, Ed Steward. He's still here. He was a boxer. He fought for the light .heavyweight title of the State of Utah. L Was it Dee Steward or Stewart? AF Steward, Ed Steward. L How do you spell his last name? AF s-t-e-w-a-r-d. L With a D. AF I think so, yes. L You're sure about that? Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 12 AF I think so. I believe it is right. There's two Stewards. Some spell it Stewart and Steward. I think his was Ed Steward. Edward with a D. L Right. AF Right. Yes, he was a good boxer. There was Bennett Flake. He was considered a good boxer but what they done most of the time and there was more. There was Don Patton. He was a boxer. He was a good little boxer too. And there was more but at the time I can't remember. Spider Smith. There was a Spider Smith. He was a little boxer. He was a little tough one too. But most times, uh, the boxers were overmatched. L What do you mean? AF Well, the opponent was most times heavier than he was. And they had a hard time gettin' to winning unless they knocked them out, in other words. So they were overmatched. AF Well, from what I understand. Well, sometimes where the fellow had more experience or overweight, you know. Outweighed the other guy to some degree and it's difficult to beat a man if he outweighs you. Ten or fifteen pounds. It don't sound like much but this was it. L Yeah. AF 'Course they didn't pay them very much at that time. Ten, fif­teen, twenty-five dollars, you know. Maybe fifty dollars. You got fifty dollars when you were good. L Where did they used to fight? AF Well, they had the old, had the McCullough Arena down on 9th South and Main, where Grand Central--well, it's the Safeway store is there now. Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 13 It was on that block, on that corner. And then at the old Fair Grounds. They fought there. That's been there a long time. They fought there. And sometimes they'd go out to the Magna and the Copper Club and they'd fight there. L Did you go watch them, the fights? AF Oh, yes. They were my friends. Yes. Ed Steward was my friend. Yeah. He and I were personal friends. L How long did he fight for? Did he fight for awhile? AF Oh, me? L Ed Steward? AF ED? Oh, yes. For quite awhile. And they used, they used to-­there was a fellow, a wrestler by the name of Ira Dern. He used to get the boxers ••. pardon? L D-e-r-n? AF I think D-e-r-n. Ira. He was a wrestler and he would get a group of boxers and wrestlers and take them maybe into Idaho, Washington and Nevada and maybe take two or three girls and they would dance, you know. Put on a little show during intermission or something like that. They'd have the wrestling and boxing. L This was kind of like a club, club boxing, right? AF Yeah, regular •.• L This would be club boxing like you go from club to club? AF No. Places, different towns. These were towns. They'd match their boxers and they'd take the group from Salt Lake to match with the boxers from the other towns. L That's what I mean. AF Yes. Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 14 L They used to call it club boxing, didn't they? AF Well, yeah. Perhaps so. Yes. Well, if a guy didn't have a manager, he w~s on his own, but he had to stay in shape and that. Oh, yes. L How did Ed fare? How did he do? AF Ed was good. L Was he a good boxer? AF He was a good boxer. He hit hard. His one problem. When he went out he stayed out too late at night and if he didn't get the guy in about four or five rounds, well the guy usually got him. Because his energy ran out. L (laugh) But he fought for the championship fight of the state, huh? AF In the state. L In the state. P..F Light Heavyweight champion. L How did he do in there? AF Well, he lost to a guy by the name of Bob Heckler. Oh, he done good but he just lost. He didn't get knocked out. He lost the decision. L You were at that fight? AF Yes. Ed was my friend and I used to attend. Yes. L What became of him after that fight? AF Well, he's still here. What he done ••• L What kind of work did he do after? AF Well, Ed, he went to the Army. He went in the Army. That is World War II. And then when he came out he worked for the city Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 15 as a pipefitter helper. Plumber. Well, he worked for the city for a long time as a helper. Then, he paid his way through the G.I. Bill, I don't know how it was financed. Ed went back to Kansas City and went to plumber's school. He couldn't get the opportunity here. So he got his--he graduated as a journeyman plumber and he came back and got a job here as a plumber. The first Black plumber we had here. Working for the city, all he could do was be a helper. I think he's still doing some plumb­ing work now. L Has he got his own place now? AF No, he lives in his home, you know. He's getting up in years and he's not too well now. He's had a heart attack and his wife incapacitated and as a result, well, he's--he stays home, but he does little jobs on the side. Yes. L Have you remained good friends over the years? Have you remained close friends with him? AF Oh, yes. I've talked to him on occasion. I call him on occasion. I don't meet him very often but we're still friends. Yes. L There's a lot of boxers around here in those days? AF Yes. L Boxing is a bigger thing than what it is now. It seems like more people were in it, it was more open. AF Yes, yes. They had their battle royales oftentimes. L Did .you ever have them in this town? AF Battle royales? Oh, yes. Yeah. L Have you ever participated in one in this town? AF No. Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 16 L Did you ever go watch one? AF Oh, I've watched them, yeah. But I did once, back in Chicago when I was, happened to know about this place where this club was having them in there and naturally I went in there and it didn't take them long to knock me down. I think I ended up with about .•. L Excuse me. AF I think I ended up with about five or six dollars or something. But that was the only time. No, I wasn't a boxer. I guess I wasn't tough enough for that. L It sounds pretty brutal. It sounds actually pretty crazy. AF Oh, yeah. L Let me ask you, one thing we didn't talk about is I--did you go for vacations in those days or, you know, when you took time off from work, where would you go? AF They didn't have no vacation then. They didn't--the company was no vacation. It was a long time before the union got a vacation. You worked and there was no vacation because you couldn't afford to lay off the job. In fact had you took off from your job you would have probably ended up without a job. So you worked. You worked sometimes six and seven days a week. It was a long time before they cut back to five days a week. L Do you remember when that came about? Five day a week? AF Well, at first they didn't go to five days. They went from--no I don't. But it was in the early forties there, they went from seven days to six days. L So you used to work in a seven-day week. How many hours a day? Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 17 AF Eight hours a day. And then if they needed you there for another eight hours, sixteen hours, you stayed. Maybe you got four dol­lars, three dollars a day or four dollars a day. Whatever. Then if you worked sixteens hours, you got the six dollars and had to find a lunch or go without lunch. Well, there was a store down there. You could go down and maybe get a sandwich or something. And then if you worked and you got four dollars a day. If you worked sixteen hours, you got eight dollars. L So they just doubled it? They didn't give you any extra. AF Well, there's no law forcing them to do it and until the law was passed, well naturally there was no law forcing them to do it and they weren't going to do it. L So you pretty much worked like animals. I mean, you just worked ••. AF You did, you did. Right. It was hard work. Yes. I could out­work two men on that plant. And the job was dirty. And I grad­uated as a journeyman on a sixteen pound sledgehammer. L What does that mean? AF You would swing that hammer. You got to be good enough to swing that hammer. A certain thing you had to .do with that hammer. L What did you have to do with the hammer? AF Well, it's pretty difficult to explain what we were doing. If you had to open a hole to run the metal out of the furnace. A guy had a long steel bar with a knob on it and he'd hold it up there and you'd swing that hammer until you hit through that what they called dobe. It was kind of a hard putty that they used to shut the hole off when the metal come off. Well, one man would stand there with a long bar and you'd get on the end Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 18 of that harruner and swing it. Sixteen pound. L Where would the hole be? AF In the furnace they had a trough like. When you opened it well the hole, when you opened the hole, there was a trough. Like a gutter like and the metal would come out and go down into a pot. L Right. AF Ladle, they'd call them. L The metal would be liquid or would it ••• AF Liquid metal. Yes, but you had to make the hole for the metal to start. L Oh, I see. AF And when you got the hole open, little hole, then you took a bar and kept poking until you opened the hole bigger. And after you load so many pots you had a big dolly, you'd shut the metal off again until you had to--the next train come along with the pots and refill and you had to be strong enough to swing that harruner to knock that hole in that putty, in that dobe they called it. I got so I was pretty good at it. Of course there was other guys there too but I was really the only Black guy down on that job. L What did it mean to be good at it? I mean did you mean that you could do it fast? AF Not fast but strong. Just be strong. You had to hit, hit hard. Take the handle. I don't know if you've seen a sledgeharruner or not. The handle was about that long. You did it by the handle. L Yeah. You couldn't be missing. (laugh) AF Oh, sometime you'd miss. Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 19 L Yeah. AF But what I'm saying, you'd hit that hammer. You didn't pick it up each time. L Right. You just kept hitting. AF Yeah, yeah. You've heard about steel doors but they didn't have nothing like that. L So it must have gotten you pretty strong? It must have •.• AF I got by, I got by. L (laugh) That's not the work you were doing all day long though was it? AF No. Just at certain periods of time. No, we didn't do it all day. Put there's a certain time when the metals was at acer­tain level and then you had do it. Sometimes I had to do that about, if you got maybe eight trains out, seven trains, six trains, you had to open that hole six times during that shift. L That would the average number of times you'd be doing it a day? Six or seven times? AF Oh, yes. L So now we're talking--when you're talking by the hole, you're saying there's the oven door, right? AF No oven. There was no oven. You've got a big furnace like this wall. L Is it an open furnace? AF No, no, it's closed up. The furnace is closed. And the metal, they dumped the ore in the top of the furnace. Then down at the bottom, when you get the metal out, down is where you open the hole to get the rich metal at one level you get what they call Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 20 the slag. It was a poor grade. It was a waste. And down on the bottom you'd get the rich metal which went into another, into another department, what they called into the converters. L Old processing? AF Right, right. L And so--what did you hit? What did you actually hit? AF Well, what I'm saying, you had dobe there and when they built the furnace, they had a copper block, about like that with a hole in the middle and you put that <lobe in that hole. L And the dobe was what? AF Well, it's kind of a mud. L I see. AF They mix it. I don't know--they brought it in and they mixed it. It had to be soft and they'd put that in that hole and then you had to take that bar to drive it in there to get the metal to run. See, the copper didn't burn out as fast. And that's why they used a copper bar. L So you're saying you'd have to drive that copper bar into that dobe? AF No, no. The copper bar was set on the furnace. L Okay. AF See, it was set in the furnace and the only hole that you'd get into that furnace to get that metal was through that copper bar. That one hole that was there. L Right. AF But the copper was lade in with the brick against the wall. And so you'd get through that hole to get your metal. Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 21 L You'd just pop that little hole in there? Just pop it back, push it back? AF Yes, open it. L Yeah. AF And after when you get a little one, then you'd keep poking around to make it bigger. There'd be long steel bars and they'd burn off and then you'd get a new bar. L Oh, I get you, I get you. Yeah. Did everybody work as long hours as you? AF Well, it depends on what department they were in and what they did. If they needed you in that department, well, you stayed there. The foreman came around and said, "I need so many men, you stay, you stay tonight," and you stayed. L Did the foreman give out favorable treatment to people? AF Well, the job I was on, the other guys didn't work on that job so he told me to stay over. L Well, I mean did the foreman give, you know, was he more lenient towards his friends or .•• AF Oh, yes. They had preference, of course. Definitely. They had favorites. It would depend on your name and from that you got promotion according to your name. Swede, Dane or what have you, why that's--many of them were promoted that way. L Yeah. AF That's before the union organized this. L Did the union, after it organized, were you involved in strikes with the union? AF Oh, gosh, gosh yes. Every time they went on strike I was there, you bet. Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 22 L That's one of the things we haven't talked about, about the strikes at all. AF We had strikes. We had--at first--during World War II, the company said, "Hey, don't go on strike." We might have been on strike maybe for an hour or two sometimes, a day or two, but during World War II, the management came along, a Mr. J.P. O'Connor. He was the manager there. Ee came and he got all the fellows down to the gate and we got our Navy E for working you know, producing copper for the Army, soldiers and that. "If you fellows be patient and don't go on strike, during the war, when the war is over, I'm going to remember you and we'll make up to you." Because they didn't give us a raise then. No raise in pay. However, when the war ended, 1945, and in 1946 when they came along and the union was negotiating with them for a raise, and improve in benefits, the company refused. And so we went on strike for six months then. L That's a long time. AF We went on strike for six months. Yes, it was a long time, but we went out. We finally won it. And then when the strike was over ••• L Was that your first long strike? AF Yes. 'Cause the others were just maybe a few hours. Sometimes we'd walk out maybe for , a day or two and go back but this was the longest one. At that time. But the longest strike we had was in 1967, through '69, which was nine months. L What happend with that? Why did that strike come about? AF Well, because of disagreement with the company and trying to Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 23 settle the issues. That's why it came about. L What were the issues? AF Well, the issues were first, economic, like raise in pay. Bene­fits through hospital, sick benefits and these kind of things. Seniority for old people. That's what that was about. L Why did the company during that first strike, why didn't they respond? Why did they break their pledge, do you know? AF Well, after all, these companies--there's no difference in com­panies, I don't think. They're not agoing to give their em­ployees any more than they have to. And that was the issue. They, they thought that we were asking for too much. That was the main issue. We just wanted too much and this--they didn't intend to give in. But the only thing that--the reason they gave in is because of the price of copper was up and they was shut down and other companies was producing copper and so the competition forced them to settle with the union and open the plant up again. L Yeah, so you hurt them? AF Yes. We hurt worse than they did, mostly the union. They had a food store set up and the union would give you an order for groceries and they had so much money that the steel workers union sent into Utah and put in a fund and according to the number in your family, you got an order you could go to Safeways, Albertsons and get your--mostly Safeways and get your food. You could get meat and other commodities, so much a week. Then you had picket duty too. You are out on picket duty, maybe once a week or once every two weeks. It depends on--they had a list of wherever you were scheduled to go. Either night, afternoon or morning, Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 24 you went out there. L What did you do during the strike? AF Well, I was troubleshooting for the union. L What does that mean? AF I was, I'm trying to think of what title I could use for that. Me and one other gentleman went to the, to the loan companies, the automobile companies, the finance companies, the mortgage companies on homes, what have you. Utility companies, set and talked to the head of them, asking them to, "Hey, let's give them a chance. Don't shut the power off. Don't take their car back. Don't foreclose on the home." I was doing that. L That's a hard task. AF It was a hard task. I was doing it every day, five days a week. L What were peo.ple's responses when you came around? AF When I talked to them? At first they said no, no, the hell with you. We want our money. It's not my fault because you're on strike. After all, they wouldn't strike. Utah Power & Light, telephone company and these other companies, we were talking to them. Then finally they would relent. Because when you go back, "we'll make it up." Then we had the credit union that if a person was in dire circumstances, the credit union. I'd go to the credit union and say, "Hey, here's so and so here. He's hit pretty hard, he need a few dollars." "Well, how much? Send him in. '' They' d go in and loan them some money. When he come back he had a check off the credit union. When he went back towork, then they'd deduct so much out of his pay. That was my job then. It was a rough one. But I could talk. L (laugh) Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 1, p 25 AF That's the only thing I could do. schooling, but I learned to talk. (laugh) I didn't get enough L You must have been convincing. AF Yes, very much so. We'd set down and ask for the manager. We didn't go to some low person. When we went in there, we'd say is Mr. so and so in, whose the manager? "Well, he's busy." "Well, we'll wait." So we'd sit down and talk to him. "Now we've got so and so here". "Well, what do you want me to do?" "Well, give him a chance until we go back to work. We'll pay you up." Most times they were good in that way. And then the grocery stores, if a man went in a grocery store, if he owed him some money, .and they needed something from the dry goods store, we'd go in and say, "Hey, this man, these people are out on strike. When we go back to work, we'll patronize your busi­ness." He'd open up and give them credit. Side 2 AF Never. That isn't--never in the coins. L It was not really the purpose? AF WEll, you ask for more than what you expect to get. Oh, we'd come off with some good contracts. Same procedure this year. They've settled but until the local issues are settled, it won't be publicized completely. They've settled with Kennecott. L Let me ask you a question. What's the difference in your mind between a person like yourself who started to work with the union when they just got going and a person coming in, getting into the union today? AF What was the difference? Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 2, p 26 L Yeah, what's the difference between a person who was there at the beginning? How do you, do you feel differently about the union, an oldtime person. AF Yes, you're more dedicated. got. If things was rough. Because you struggled for what you You had to go through sweat and blood in a way of speaking. And you made it. You started from the ground and you worked hard. You had calluses on your hands. sweat on your brow, your clothes was dirty, sweaty. Those going in now, the pattern has been set and they're not producing as much, they're not as dedicated to the union because when they walk in they walked in there, just like you were going in perhaps in an office somewheres, you have a father or brother or some grandfather that's setting you up and whatever. Department or whatever business he's in. Business like. And you're starting on--your're not starting on the ground floor like sweeping the floor and janitorial work and things ~like that, you've got an office and you're over some of those employees that's been there a number of years, and that's the difference. They're not ded­icated enough. L But there's no way to go back. AF No, you can't go back. But what's happening now throughout the country, the unions are being busted. These big companies are shutting down, they're laying off union men and it won't ever go back to where it was before. Some of them say the union monopo­lizes these companies and that. Some of the things they had to get rough with them and the only weapon they had was the strike. But now, because of the situation, the world situation and the situation in the country now, the unions are losing power. Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 2, p 27 Because they've laid off more people and it's difficult to go in to get a contract for union wages where you can get a man to go out and work for three or four dollars a day less and no benefits. The union, when they organized, they would get hosp­italization, they would get retirement for you and your family, some get dental service and they're not going for that. A man now, some of them, he's out here, out of a job. He'll take a job three dollars, four dollars an hour, five dollars an hour, six dollars an hour. They figure that's good pay now. And this is why there's a difference. Yes. L There's no way for you for instance to give to somebody what you went through. AF No, they're not, they're not ready to listen. Just like going to som~ of these young people saying, "Look, back in the latter thirties or fifties and the forties, what we went through to make the gains that we have now. We laid the groundwork for you." They're not ready to listen. They say, "Man, what the hell you talking about? I'm not interested. I want mine now." L They don't want to wait? AF "I don't want to wait. I want it now." But before you get it now, you have to be prepared and that preparation must come through education. I don't say one should take anything but take a job and stay in school. Parents should do all that they can to encourage their youngsters and don't wait until there're nine, ten, eleven years old. Start when they learn to talk. And drill that within them. Their first pride. Hold your shoulders up and your head high. One other thing, language. Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 2, p 28 L AF Learn to use English language, you know. Be as articulate as possible. That helps, huh? You know it helps. Yes. You know there's no need of a person out of high school, a college graduate, to slur their words. Regardless of who they are. It isn't always Black either. No. But if you're going to get ahead and you're going .to ·advance in life, prepare yourself. When you get a job paying you a little something, don't try to buy everything that you see. Buy the things that you need and those you don't need, leave them there. You know we all want nice, a nice automobile, we want nice clothes, we want a nice home, furniture, TV, stereos. We want all of this but one of the worse things, one of the things that's hurt this country more than anything else is credit. L Buying on credit? AF Buy on credit. You can't make the payments. L Lose it. AF You lose it, then you have problems at home, financial problems creates other problems. These are some of the things that, yes. L Let me ask you, have you regretted not having kids? AF No, I have kids. I've five, but they're not mine, you know. No. I don't regret. L You've never regretted that? AF No, I don't regret, not having kids. No, I'm married for the third time and I don't regret not having kids. But I've dealt with kids. I know how to deal with them. I relate to them. I just love people, regardless of kids, you know. I have one of Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 2, p 29 the best, what shall I say, relationship with the neighbor kids in my neighborhood as anybody you know. I'll bet there's mo~e than a hundred today. Go by there at school. They all say, "Hello, Mr. Fritz." They talk to me. L How did you get to know them· ·all? AF Just going by. I'd go by and say 'hello'. Another 'hello' and stand on the lawn and talk and that's how. Through communication. The neighbor kids and that. If they're going to play ball they come and ask me, "Hey I'm going to play ball tonight, Mr. Fritz. Can you go watch my game?" I say, "No, I'm sorry I'm busy." They'll come and knock on the door at eight thirty in the morning. They want us to--they'll come and knock on the door and call me. "Hey, he hit me, he's bothering me." And something like that. And I don't think there's over about half a dozen Black kids going through there. L So the kids trust you? The kids trust you. AF Well, I like them. L They probably know. AF Yes. L If you had--if you could try to in a summary way, tell young people what unionizing was like for you, the beginning of it, how would you summarize it, the experience of forming the union. AF Well, first, I was abused to some degree, you know. Insulting. And that, but yet you have remain a part of it, attend the meet­ings, participate. If you're paying your union dues, just like any organization, you're paying your money into, to go there to become part of it and eventually you're accepted. Things are Albert Fritz 5-25-83 Side 2, p 30 not today like they were when I was struggling to gain the same opportunity quality of opportunity. The seniority was a term that we used out there. It isn't, it's a little different now. And I would say that participate in organizations, don't ostra­cize yourself. Just in Blacks. Join other liberal groups. Search them out. You can find them. Participate with them. L So hang in there, you're saying? AF Right. Stick with it. Yes. And let your voice be heard. Don't sit back timid like. If you get an idea, you have a thought, during the meeting, hold your hand up, "Mr. Chairman, I have the floor." Speak out, loud and clear. I don't know any other way to put it. Oh, Blacks still have problems. We're not without problems here. They still have problems in the State of Utah, in the city, communities. They're there. In my community. In all communites, they're there, where the Blacks are, the problems are there. They're quite subtle with them. They're not like they used to be. But the problems are here. We have various discrimination and segregation. L You've seen it? AF Yes. But you still work with it. Make your voice heard. L Well, that's a good place to stop today. AF Okay. L Make your voice heard. AF Well, I don't know what more I can tell you. L That's what I hope yo~'ll do on the 10th of June. Albert Fritz 3-15-84 Side 1, p. 1 AF I had juice and then I had coffee and we had rolls down there. But thanks anyway L What organization, at that time? AF Well, at that time I got the impression that they were working for the betterment of the Blacks. But some of those people weren't very militant. L Okay. Could you tell me more about what that means. AF Well, by being militant, going up in front, facing the public, picketing, demonstrating against the city because the downtown businesses--because of the conditions of the Blacks being dis­criminated against refused employment and accomodations. Public accomodations and any accomodation there, they were limited. They had to have their own uh, rent a building occasionally for having affairs of any type of recreation and some of the Blacks were working toward it but they just didn't go out in\ front as much as they should have. L How, how were they working towards it? What were they doing? AF Well, they'd, after all, you know the NAACP was formed in order to better the conditions of Blacks and other minorities. Espec-ially Blacks because of the way that they were being treated. do Well, what they were trying to/is get employment for Blacks, public accomodation and facilities that as tax payers they were entitled. L But how were they going about it? AF Well, they were going about it through meeting with the officials like the city officials, the government, the governor, the, leg-islature. They were petitioning the legislature toward bringing Albert Fritz 3-15-84 Sidel, P 2 about these changes. L Okay. Now, would all this be done behind the scenes unknown to the public? AF No, No. They, they would request meetings openly to meet with these people like the governor, the legislature where I stated earlier that we picketed the legislature because ••• L Now, okay. But that came later. AF Okay. L Let's not mix it up. AF Right, yes. L · I'm trying to focus on the early period when you first joined, maybe in the forties. AF Well, in the forties, what they were trying to do like housing. Housing and employment and public accomodation. All they were seeking then was this public accomodation,was the first bill that they attempted to get through the legislature. L Yeah. AF And their pleas fell on deaf ears. L Okay. Now, okay. Just--we're not now talking about when you were the president. We're talking about earlier ••• AF Before? L Beforehand. AF Right. Yes. L And you remember that they were trying to pass public accomoda­tion bills even before? AF Yes, yes, even before I became president. They tried to pass it. And they had no success. Albert Fritz 3-15-84 Side 1, P 3 L Okay, now, in their methods of trying to get the attention of people, about these problems were to speak directly to the gov­ernor, or to approach the governor in meeting? A..F Attempted meetings with the governor which we met, with the leg-islators. L Which governor was that, do you know? AF Well, Governor Dewey Clyde. L Was it Governor Clyde? AF Right. And also Governor Lee, Bracken Lee before Governor Clyde. L Yeah. And Bracken, he's still alive, isn't he? AF Yes. L Did you ever meet with Maw? AF Oh, yes. I met him also. I didn't know him very well because I really wasn't very deeply involved at that time he was Governor. So, I only met with the group at one time with him. But he was a very, uh, I thought, understanding Governor, however. During that time we considered him a liberal governor but they weren't having any success in the legislature. L Okay. But no success in the legislature. Now, when we're talk­ing about this earlier group in the forties, let's say, what other people had come to mind for you? AF On, the people who came to mind at tliat time was Mr. and Mrs. Harmon · Cole. L Okay. Go s·lower. Mr. and Mrs ••• AF -Harmon Cole. L ·How do you spell their las:t name? AF e-O-L-R. L Okay. Albert Fritz 3-15-84 Side 1, P 4 AF And there was Bob Lewis, Robert Lewis. L You can tell me both Black and Whites, if you remember. AF Well, okay. Then there was Mrs. James Williams. And there was Mr. FRank Rawlings. There was Mrs. Eva Robinson. L I heard that name. AF Yeah, she was a former president. L Is she a former NAACP President? AF Yes. And at that time Mrs. Mignon Richmond was a member of the organization. L Okay. AF Reverend William Monroe. Mrs. Thelma Stewart. L Oh, okay. Thelma Stewart? AF Thelma Stewart Barradon. L Oh, okay. You forgot the last name. AF Right, right. L Now, that's Ed's sister? Ed Stewart's sister, right? AF Right. L Okay. AF I'm trying to think of ••• L She was a pretty keen person, wasn't she? ~...F Right, yes. Then there was a couple that lived in Park City which didn't come down very often, a Mr. and Mrs. Harmon. Uh, Coleman .•• L Mr. and Mrs. Coleman? AF Howard Coleman. L Mr. and Mrs. Howard Coleman. Okay, now were they Black or White? AF · They were Black. Albert Fritz 3-15-84 Side 1, P 5 L So there was Robert Lewis? AF Yes, right. L Was he Black or White? AF He was Black. L What did he do? Was he ••• AF He's retired now. He retired from Hill Field, government worker. L Okay. And James Williams? AF Yes. L Was he Black or White? AF He was Black. All of those were Black. L All of these names you've given me? AF Right. L Okay. Uh, what did James Williams do? AF James Williams. He worked for Kennecott. L He was at Kennecott? AF Right. Employed at Kennecott at that time. L Okay. What about Harmond Cole? AF He was a mail carrier, postman. L Now, he died, right? AF Right. L Yeah. Okay. And, of course, Reverend Monroe is still livving and •.. AF No, he wasn 1 t president, he was vice-president. L Reverend Monroe? AF Right. L Who was the president at the time, in the late forties, right around tfie time you joined? Albert Fritz 3-15-84 Side 1, p 6 AF Well, at that time, there was a Mr. Edwin Howell. L Edwin Howell? AF Howell. L Right. That's