Geoffrey Symcox, University of California, Los Angeles, interview by Newell Bringhurst

Transcript (36 pages) of interview by Newell Bringhurst with Geoffrey Symcox, UCLA history professor, on December 13, 1988. This interview is no. 336 in the Everett L. Cooley Oral History Project, and tape no. U-943

Symcox, a professor of history at UCLA, discusses his memories of Fawn McKay Brody. Interviewer: Newell Bringhurst

Acc 814 Interview No. Geoffrey Symcox 336 GEOFFREY University of California, An Interview Newell Everett L. SYMCOX Oral No. December Marriott University Salt Angeles By Bringhurst Cooley Tape Los Lake History U-943 13, 1988 Library of City, Utah Utah Project UNIVERSITY LIBRARIES MARRIOTT LIBRARY SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH 84112 UNI\/E'?S”-Y OF UTAH EVERETT L. COOLEY ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION pate Noveuder 21 /940 I willingly 19% to contribute scholarly the my Library testimony of the recorded University on of ALC Utah /3 to be used for purposes. 2§ Open Usable and usable with the after my following e review. restrictions: ()Irfle rv1ewee . C.M;%f Interv1ewer Table December 13, Met During Fawn AENUECTAT Drawn Issue Psychoanalytic Saw Seminar Bernard Question Fawn's Many Issues Faculty a in History . Over War Catalyst in Moral American Death 16 . . 18 22 Terms Biography 24 Popular 215 24, . and Fawn's Relationship of Ethics - Retirement Department . Biography Things in Bernard's on Fragmented Cambodian Times . Junior Department Fawn Tumultuous s Together of Contents 1988 BRIl Purging of Nixon . . . 28 312 315 TODAY " IS " DECEMBER 13, 1988 AND I'M IN THE OFFICE OF PROFESSOR GEOFFREY SYMCOX WHO IS A PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT UCLA, AND THE TOPIC OF THE INTERVIEW IS FAWN MCKAY BRODY. THE INTERVIEWER IS NEWELL BRINGHURST [EVERETT L. COOLEY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM, UNIVERSITY OF UTAH]. NB: Just start wherever logically with GSi I how her. in faculty, and There was very many issues, a drawn Jere King ahead some gravitated was well. I once. She once. Perhaps remember came me she dinner there were concerned in my a wing and times. And I never to with a way but to on Then we old a friend generation supported through knew be her me Jere I terribly dinner at her house Bernard at our house couple reall 1y also colleagues. my his senior, moral by on but issues. as over to was of And taken tended much orbit. going were as under NikethatiNemwerentti junior, is '69. department. of I lot in this I temporary issues particularly me Fawn's a Well, a sides that on okay? basis firing of acquainted as in and evident difficult to times terms her. '67 political although took met in and she there, permanent Jjust together, me, through as who, of from division became side were of in became actually a hiring it same I on not of Gradually it tumultuous lot questions first department joined were comfortable you take where the those feel when we'll know arrived the and Then don't you intel she about of other il SIS always the occasions wastibut seemed direction a to that GEOFFREY SYMCOX affairs #1 were that the that time. were being wrong faculty, of that —---?--was in they a What were GS: Decisions I things bad of were decisions, the out that said really the a time to going running and junior became at she at they treated naturally once moral specific who on selfishly real about she considered department they were people been so was that had her as remember sense NB: and way She the wrong the I the running making unfair mine, department. were particularly, specifically It the were very ---?---. here, in people They supporter the taking me wrong department unscrupulously. outrage. complaints? should be These hired decisions? who should be fired. NB: Oh. GS':: Particularly group up of in who people 1970. affair and days. business in affair. some the The people took campus was of be fired. a and so spring wanted to 2 was I a big for was mixed the the and police up in department Cambodian bitterly resolutions bust several the after the Cambodian of And very that the strike and just split pass on Jere. 1970 department felt was business here, was of there went big classes She over--there remember the There split who You surveillance that should to because use the GEOFFREY SYMCOX #1 department as Others said, versus radical the a "No." split at that came in NB: Wolpert GS: No, he left in NB: He left in 1970. GS: He couldn't he said, NB: And left GS: Yeah. NB: He said he GS: Stanley took in other whole kind of as it of department. conservative At Stanley anymore. that point Wolpert was threw up because his didn't Bob in of the man, been hired in this more of this a rough time and new man junior anymore. that in the him When the in he and the started was some of the using him wrong the of department members Wohl of number There senior department a the faculty. lot a chair, behind a Now, behind certain grouped split? and--. his. Wohl among front had had of with were it Wohl friends feeling, who hands like Wohl. 1970 He out." partially their had kind action. in--? getting purge department the a political point. people, reconvened had changed. stand just over, we their 1970. "I'm he for So chairmanship chairman a basis years people up to 1LC)7/(0) NB: Was more conservative? conservative group? 3 Was Wohl representing a GEOFFREY GS: SYMCOX Not #1 entirely, no. conservative high Some and academic of some of standards his views them were were people. sort So it politically of hard wasn't lined a simple matter. NB: Oh. It wasn't GS: No, but hired they in been the required of to it. purge NB: They'd had GS: Binge, yeah. NB: I'd say ESie Yeah. NB: And Uh NB: And GS: Yes. you I anyway, In they great big was up of a was be one of was an endangered up execution, them were to a Jere fire enough and they the had been shouldn't have standard and then it that they was proceeded King and support I the salad a good for number of tenure. them. for extinction species. series who Jere so managed 4 during that marked whole me was retained of tried to feeling one was and people the--. were it of lot because shouldn't there a hiring--. binge I then? university renaissance Yeah. split years this hiring fact, drummed few weren't people huh. that They there these GS: last a the so ideological decided hired. days, a saved [laughter] of to these my made that huh? a I battles. bacon big write because stand got a a And stay book and of and GEOFFREY SYMCOX covered NB: What #1 myself. was [laughter] her status? Was And Fawn was she marked very for active. extinction too? GS: No. They but she NB: Really? GS: Yes. NB: I mean couldn't wasn't even professor GS: No. with had track Senior GS: Yeah. NB: --wasn't GS: Right. Yeah. Hoxie, and she was tenured, she was a lecturer? She wasn't a time. tenure although position. I she think wasn't she a was a regular lecturer lecturer-Right. quite eventually not, her. They really We I had shouldn't lowered the got on on light her stuff have of an professional 5 the Fawn professorial rank do weight was like anything by much and that tone, Albert to intellectual amateur people that. happened really a sort 1like what also as man know couldn't was think was another she they regarded she then? don't whether she didn't thought tenured but But somehow it because tenure. NB: or her professor. that she tenured a though at But touch grounds, these good the people. and they department around et about because cetera, et GEOFFREY SYMCOX cetera. light NB: GS: So GS: Mm. How of under of we you drew were in with the rest of us together. in this S Edonitsekneowiesil group that were kind ‘den'tisknow. Most iof Sithe faculty. Most of had been the junior hired Peter American late--? who is History, man He's racism? at Iron chair fellow, who the Most the another senior Right. in faculty. Reill, was very lumped siege? OhiNgadi, Yes. was and many There NB: Fawn weights junior NB: #1 was of these people now, was Ron Takaki, who them is fired by almost and that fired. did now a Berkeley. one who Cages, wrote yeah. something That's about something some about slavery. GS: Yes. He wasn't NB: A GS: He NB: --scholar. GS: Yeah. nationally went to GS: They tried Berkeley like to that. fire too? Yeah, Loewenberg of him and right. group rid enough. They got rid 6f him. recognized-- That's decisions NB: good and got tenure Well, They they tried Loewenberg? was in that Loewenberg 6 there. made to a fire managed They to of Loewenberg. Loewenberg group. number was in almost fight his that got way GEOFFREY SYMCOX #1 of it. It you say most out NB: GS: So late sixties Yeah. Well, who had were was a purge. of these people had been hired in the and--. of course, been hired tenured. couldn't before They quality--there they that decided was a lot because that of touch if talk the by the people then they department's about pruning dead wood. NB: Mm. GS: And the only dead tenured dead wood because the tree, NB: Yeah. GS: So but they hire shove out Wohl's NB: They GS: Oh to whiz a year you prune can see at the usually touch it some superstars. people. They '70-'71--an the the analogy top of non the there. themselves and was elbow So did awful they in lot room to tried to fact of fire-- people. did? yeah. other below And side reason was par. Fawn, for that Her state-of-the-art the of could Now is make kids lot first wood couldn't wanted some they right? dead they wood people who a you number she of was stuff herself The considered Then doing i found reasons. wasn't stuff. were see, hard-edge purge the intellectual intellectually professional politically, this on a tended lot of to be GEOFFREY SYMCOX middle very #1 of the road strong other moral moral NB: should it. she did was GS: Yes. of NB: Mm. GS: --but I I you. rules. was it say what that don't The That that know Jere sense wrong and was stuck there something them was and about that there, in she it department was just my exactly what Fawn would from point of mind and they're not running unethically. She had I pretty people problem. also, some got that the in I the that just £fair were King running So a the was not happened a her the Now, the was probably was were about very think, probably the all boat strong 8 of the-- nasty said in able to this playing remark automatically one be that not she underdog. NB: was angered never are She all happening and that know I meetings. morally me don't know disputes. tell up from had faculty-- I those thing because tenured was Fawn outspoken? Well, meetings apart Wunjust), stand And it. another kind that, what was we was sense it thought That conservative. reasons, pliadn@wreng), And to she these says by made people bad well and sense of was the to who people, behaving fairness. championed the GEOFFREY GS: SYMCOX She was #1 a very something wrong endear her. NB: So was GS: ¥eaho she I word a the of hold all they wanted after it. a kind reacted NB: to So things what? GS: I'd NB: So kind that yes. the 19707 GS: Late did Eighteen say, went There 1970-- I yes. months Maybe to a year critical far? want a second two or the be done in seemed to fell They on flack. majority things think down the when apart could body of no the did. too I quieted a entire they little some get use generally junta months. the really were saw didn't could could think eighteen what a we of real could getting perhaps this? they T catching ruling think well, were the or she that was because they--. think, she that because I i1f lot approve of Maybe, that Gradually on and a and year count department like cards know who of so, When these? know hell stages about Things I person. say don't people a the longer I but wasn't initial of knew. the minded would advocate 'donl't side There GS: she advocate, the NB: strong People people sort of began to wholesale purge thoughts. and normalized after from what? years? two. period was about GEOFFREY SYMCOX NB: Late GS: SN NB: Late GS: The NB: Right. GS: Stanley "70: Ves 1970. Cambodian after took over and his and Jere some and did were step was in GS: In another three NB: He was it tenure --acrimonious. GS: It things NB: GS: Was still his a people that was larger Yes. I would or so high. a in June meetings. after People the short on 30, Wohl that Wohl like Fawn wilderness, tenure as but chairman a--? years. three had years, pretty acrimonious, own there it after things NB: year riding down '70. department a long. May, chairmanship hairy for for Yeah. in definitely there GS: was the about last in 1left were or his he came for King he up very friends didn't And bust Wolpert 1970 that NB: #1 but well the later calmed but he part of down? wasn't getting way. core group were kind than say of of what? Maybe spearheading four, this five purge or that? that there e 10 were three or four behind GEOFFREY NB: SYMCOX There were make GS: Yeah. Well, were able I'd three they to control don't a very if that Wohl, I NB: Oh GS': Yeah. NB: I and they low main Coben opinion of even 1list is to were high of name people Coben that the terms need about was captured the don't the know on four able to ground debate and of the things. Martines, Gatell put somehow dictate heard--you were or ==-=-?2---? and sources GS: only things agenda NB: #1 and and Fawn. involved. Eugen in names--from this group other probably Gatell. Gatell. I know [laughter] The other I Coben don't person had know I would Weber. really? heard with GS: He NB: But GS: Well, he was one of the hiring her in the turned on her? people that was involved first‘place? was. he then I had late don't been sixties NB: Right. Yeah. GSis '66 '68 NB: Prior to GS: Yeah. And to or know one of as he if he the actually great was turned hirers of on Fawn, people in but the chair. something. '65 to '68. Wolpert. he hired a lot ]88 of these people; then they GEOFFREY SYMCOX got the made axe. a NB: Change GS: Yeah. was #1 Later, bad mistake. his mind Right. always I think perhaps he decided he had [laughter] huh? But he his was one protege, of the Wohl was people--see, his Wohl student after all. NB: Oh. GS: And he who I was personally think was Chambers, the ancient NB: He's now huh? GS:: No, gone he's Wohl here played but the remark NB: What GS: I to he can't elld involved person was Mort he's on leave together. Still was had year. do, a--I to made this I think. remember me a about very Fawn's He and Yeah, Jerry King unflattering work. say? recall been. another historian. reporting Coben and personally interest me, that did has tennis Coben saying but involved, exactly Meaning but that fashilonedisand something her »Ehi'si old "and like style Fawn was biography "that: " Coben; a was —==2-—==={ [laughter] NB: He had he done like GS: I done a biography something on A. of his own Mitchell hadn't Palmer he? or Hadn't something that? don't know. But you know, 152 Coben was already strange GEOFFREY SYMCOX in NB: those #1 days, strange indeed. his about strange is What that. heard I've Yeah. very behavior? GS: to trying while your worth It him. interview be would it if know don't I and neurotic, highly manipulative, paranoid, indeed: odd very he's Well, might be trying to interesting. NB: GS: Oh the been has that one yeah, he's like well have been may that. on the Within the the He's Gatell. rude. opposite siide W aticertain hasPRNERREhiink, been has most in difficulty most interviews for down nail the had I've person The American Gatell side. he also Scultural his “freom field heritage. that? NB: What's GS: A NB: What's his GESie Puerto Rican. NB: Oh GS: Yes. academia. in women heritage? really? doesn't men's work. just and a certain take kindly has hé And Gatell NB: cultural think is for respect of lack But he again has macho to that's always speculation. Speculation. ALE] been the a which side to him idea of women surmise, courteous I I doing don't know me. This to GEOFFREY GS: SYMCOX I #1 don't know between what him department went and tend Fawn to on in because operate the American the very fields largely in field in this watertight compartments. NB: I'd heard based GS': Yes. NB: The partly on was a with turf Gatell's opposition been other it's thing. Okay. part about Gatell is Rican name? GSks It's NB: Pardon? GS: Yeah. NB: I GS: Yeah. a Oh And GS: Yeah. NB: Weber GS: As far the wife as issue Well, you Puerto this Rican then? It's too. a So Puerto really? know kind have name. of from a mutual friend who is in he stood on issue of history. is of I that. this American his could native realized I NB: a it Catalan never Latin NB: there Chilean swung can I over tell. understand? to I the other don't know side, how huh? Fawn. don't have information on specific people he [Weber] Fawn? GS: No, or but a helped lot of to hire the in whom previous 14 years notably had hired somebody GEOFFREY SYMCOX like the NB: Mmn. GS: I #1 Peter Loewenberg wolves when remember Wohl confronting him had expressed me now why didn't that's the NB: Mm. GS: Or words to NB: So these people group I that think that was so. aecided with the confidence you way he EoMthrowiNto chair. you and me was "Look, "Well, GS: or it support issues in me me?" saying, by And hiring he said, is." effect. were senior concerned Yeah. and Chambers was in this about-- He and able to Wohl had always been close friends. NB: And they were uncommitted GS: Yeah. NB: --with GS: Something SEN SRy NB: Yeah. GS: By at the the really NB: And GS: I who think to them. go Then like OIS end lost oW, === Wohl's of a by that. of end along lot three of enough of the with-- what? I influence By really 1971? Was couldn't it 1971-'72? say. Just take =—==1 time in years chair the was he which washed I think out. He credibility. took over for him? Bob Burr did which 1L5) was a good thing because GEOFFREY SYMCOX what #1 the department conciliator cool NB: and Was part on as Yeah. NB: You GS: There of far as mentioned the was, there large hostile of to early the NB: By GS: Yeah. NB: By the time-- GS: By the time, NB: Or maybe GS: Yeah. Most there was En even I axes. was know very going there's a up. a simple one over divisions and it, most in '68 of the 1968. there to one the war. And as were department a was war. Hayden of the the Tet the a of more convention. and here department take few Chicago Offensive group small a were very any what flare remember people of a Oh, with fragmented serious I say, there GS: grind a '68. to Now, always a 196872 department NB: up not department it, group to and Cambodia. were understand diplomat was politics? it's The out tied Cambodian but a Burr not upheaval with was that. national there Already was person, this connection. I Burr discreet parallel GS: and needed radicals positive all that. was definitely, he was yes. 16 kind of and wanted the who stand, conservatives. White, liberal radical? and then GEOFFREY NB: He G&Sa Yes, SYMCOX was #1 in he that was. walllliin radical He fringe? ended up on the opposite side of the big and Y70=171% NB: Was he GS: No. They too tough. one of them wouldn't that was booted boot him out. He was too it. do couldn't They out? really? NB: Oh GS: Well, NB: Oh, GS: Yeah. He'd young Turks Sort GS: Yeah. NB: He GS: And you You couldn't the long--. of kind was He had. Fawn like of NB: with forces then? department. the in member senior Jjoin he'd and in come more a was He tenured. was he tenured. was he Right. was Really? GS: Oh give he a tough powerful crap him a had people. couple because of individual. gave he shouting it matches yeah. You didn't mess most radical person Hayden. with bh [laughter] he NB: Was GS: Yes, NB: Really? GS: Yeah. he right over [laughter] things. NB: was Hayden know, And back. senior the of one the was. L7/ in the department? no. GEOFFREY SYMCOX NB: What GS: But, was #1 he-- you things. gone A to By GS: Then by lot of far withdraw NB: see came, group saying, were more tended afraid moderate and to that polarize things liberals had began to so--. NB: The GS: Yeah. department we're party." on so all business. pushing action a for and history You that. that sorts of all the other you've really people this kinds not heard a the fragmented stopped of group department know, And And the talking to other. Cambodian I thing think that was It'd be the Cambodian political "Hey, department, each the the of arguments that already safe did? to was the completion on the way. describe the Cambodian thing as is word, but well of a process maybe catalyst? Yeah, the I think purge political was name who had confrontations in political it the bingo, escalating GS: people and from this 1970? one NB: 1970 a of had that catalyst that followed terms because purge we conceived standards. been was active The in ax not good a can't purge do fell on a like then conceived that professional politically, 18 a can terms number of Takaki. we. in in But the people It was GEOFFREY SYMCOX also of a #1 number the or radical type Mmn. GS: They'd NB: So it of you made who people lesser sense NB: people younger greater that of in the degree, say themselves in some them vulnerable? they were vulnerable inactive. department the in to the department, a Most had, involved there's made Well, been been activity could had a more so in correlation. enemies. because they did not have tenure. NB: Was GS: I NB: Allen GS: I don't NB: He was " 6s: Yarnell(?) don't think quite know was not GS: I never business GS: Yeah, think huh? That She I later NB: NB: so. purged don't See, those people that was purged. Yarnell? I rid there of know. Yeah. got one was Fawn on was purged later. that. a-- knew what because of he him he was anyway something was quite happened. a brilliant which else politically It made about very teacher him this was look I was critical of a weird and they bad. Now, thinking. the--. was? you know she wrote HS=— 19 the book about Nixon which GEOFFREY SYMCOX #1 NB: Yeah. GS: --not shall hated Nixon. talking [laughter] the war began loved every at Fawn dinner at tapes?" the of rid you're didn't dump almost verbatim his Almost GS: Yeah. used his like A the which was an been King We question. obvious recall I as of go let to he why us answer man silly the bear tapes. the Tell of and of the she [laughter] fixation. anal "He "shit." word fixation? anal pseudopsycho a Freudian shit," hoarding was [laughter] shit!" NB: it talk and of didn't couldn't Oh, have remember, specialist. at [laughter] why "He was, was dethroned, pleased. Fawn's her that. must been I it in She to remember "Well, tapes?" the I question the Nixon a "Fawn, remember which house, work. listening And had to of reveled it. very her I he of saying, was Everybody and was around came course tapes. Richard and Richard, his piece remember resignation, '74, of I moment Nixon the were laudatory and she Autumn a him time after say about the get we on went fitted tapes not could explain to in with let to bear about go how whole his she And of the anal metaphor. NB: Really? GS: And how he had other 20 characteristics of hoarding GEOFFREY SYMCOX #1 paraphernalia like that. Oh. She NB: fit it in always remember seemed so It was No. kind NB: I She mean other the personality phrase. It was so traits. graphic, 1I'l1 but it given to apt. profanity GS: with of was a start because she wasn't she. wasn't. kind of prudish. Was she kind of a prudish person? GS: No. NB: Really? GS: Well, NB: Because GS: I She wasn't. she that don't she heard her too because NB: Mm. GS: Now, by tell you Freudian fact the involved a shift didn't use was bad kind of--. think she was odd off color much, it but was in the point all about analysis with from on her up word that it word had in tool Nixon kind earlier 2 really she the but didn't used for phase that word think, approach work in in will using psychobiography. I if context. interested was, of that, become--Loewenberg this--very a like instance she as this brought right this book language. some which ways. very In much represents But this GEOFFREY I SYMCOX only #1 know actually read historian NB: Mmn. GS: But I at come they subjects That's GS: Yeah. kind being I've being an never American that in the in 1life psychoanalytic such was a doing loved she he her a perfect biography. any other fact that with the And said she period be the detested the choose the to seemed he at looking for motives this why that amalgam of wrong to in almost seems was she think I wanted think I was to think, write congenial. found one somebody I tend, would One do. biographers why sometimes She politics. his 1like a With true. true. was NB: by interested subjects other Yeah. that about biography GS:s not biographies. up wonder I That stuff, me. time. didn't she NB: told subject? perfect man. have psychoanalytic besides Well, her because a for she Nixon her of her to subject people very Nixon on job GS: the become approach Did any understand she'd NB: because of all American understand how derived. 22 abhorrent. fascinated the things politics all these this by regarded she and man society. wrong values as a as She had GEOFFREY NB: When to GSe SYMCOX she was talking an isolated being That I #1 don't touched on her war Yeah. NB: In over rebuttal I to New war. NB: By on that the the John York pressure Well, a a somebody it people--? conversation always chose that 1little she bit obviously did. war? a attribute American recall she was came I time Because at one backer of the Vietnam going through strong time you was letter expressing you people don't I that Galbraith saying, these when a Kenneth was I library across Times Bernard GS: she against in papers, the the she on. fact, his did remained but husband early GS: why always she know me that don't It much, so detested Was to Nixon case I that. mysterious NB: know. about who his in wrote 1965 opposition know, throfigh he "We got strategic in wrote of to the keep bombing." know. came on board she was against the war? GSis didn't. By the never that I've time never I directly they were met even them, on very that thought with about although the subject, I Bernard perhaps did, she disillusioned 23 fully agreed Perhaps necessarily. that on she if know don't I Yeah. that until conversation got the with it. she now. was impression GEOFFREY SYMCOX NB: You came GS: Yeah. By would be was #1 in 19607? the time I '70-'71. reading certain into now--she political got By then it, but repression the spying of and know it regarded developments the to a seemed I the whole war went can be and it I pretty the with and bad say me--maybe along dissent very would to think that as I I internal all her whole it with surveillance, trend in American politics. NB: Mm. GS: Yeah. She she had The sense tended to judgments NB: As she moral GS: Yes. NB: --she ES's Yeah. NB: So GS: Yeah. NB: And sort of see were had of a moral her seen motivation things ethical outrage in about that moral I the war? had was and that her department the terms that judgments. the problems in the things-- saw there the was a of in the pattern of then, dynamics war what moral terms. there? in course, was same of terms going on. bit away The two opposition kind of and became intertwined. GS: Yes. Definitely. NB: Now, moving a little 24 from the politics of GEOFFREY SYMCOX the #1 department. things sort get with on side from GS: That I NB: You GS: Because After of settled people her? don't don't were. I know much this down who Were by had there blew over '71, '72; maybe still and how been hard on after did the she other feelings? know. know I all how? didn't knew know who a about who few her her of friends her and friends enemies. I her were. just enemies I really didn't couldn't say. NB: What her relationship advocate of students too? GS: That NB: You GS: Again, I think, had I don't don't group of thought American qualified NB: Her the So underdog. she Was was that always kind of the never dealt any with students students very relationship who highly biography. say seminar in was most her in Apart anything. American on Yes. NB: That the of true for students. that. common. worked of with I closely her. She from I just popular with I she her a 25 had a who seminar in just don't know. was very she I and don't biography course never, know did that We huh? GS: kind know. know to was. taught? feel popular GEOFFREY GS: SYMCOX That I but #1 don't I do known know. remember best new. The for Fawn. it was her NB: So she invented GS: Ne< i NB: When she that gap? Oh it. B¥think' left she that was the this was something never done a of Is invented thing course the course taught, she was entirely like that and then it still being to fill taught? so. you didn't bring anybody in could who anybody wasn't really There do it it think¥sol. It GS: Yeah. NB: Didn't also she psychobiography she did. American her NB: Yeah. GS: I don't languished. disappeared. Disappeared. Maybe of sort just NB: of sort else really? Yeah. GS: had what way. Tadon'EF So that know course. no. that She don' Well, don't because department before GS: I know. a teach thing on psychohistory, then? Maybe biography she did that in the format of seminar. Loewenberg that. 26 would probably remember all GEOFFREY NB: GS: SYMCOX Did you her after After her #1 have time business She GS: Well, when his Yes. GS: Somebody a was miserable to funeral my wife whatever and said know, what for she like, said "I Oh hard time for how it did rough. time, stuck I of was long going end was that? sorry the it and the She with hasn't most with saw terrible seeing and it's him just die. Jjust and but boy, person friends remember dying. a remark me communication remained I was loved another We days. a much department? time. watch you have Yeah. ill remember you the Bernard had he to to last really NB: left retired. from NB: chance she she through a downhill in my mind. After offered condolences we She were. come--." of my slowly. the I said, forget remark mourning was I the and "Well, exactly something even before he died." NB: Because GS: Yes. She she could What kind of a real close NB: it GS: They she knew that knew him keep weren't what was wasn't he alive for did relation a coming then? going awhile they to live and appear that to that but really have? Was relationship? a sort of 27 bored married couple who GEOFFREY SYMCOX stayed together lot intellectual of They was talked a sense very that she had knew what GS: In NB: And a Yes. I That'd Yes. I a get He be I had think Yes. NB: That's GS: Well, that GS: They the sense they were weren't Naturally intellectual way had work his a together. and there between marriage. it It work, intelligently symbiotic to they mutual frequent them wasn't but they and--. relationship? describe both read just that two afraid there give the going of I've other's work and very smart you say to would take 28 her and her people wide and and through his papers. work. gotten. very alert it? stimulation. mention with intellectually Mm. a of he got doing. kind impression educated NB: was their the they being engagement of and on of that work from about part comment good sense another think so. think makes GS: a I stimulation other was inertia. intellectual her the it of much position so one of was Mm. out to that NB: NB: #1 be very interests, expect would what and was an within on very it. their atmosphere their well mind. of marriage, GEOFFREY SYMCOX which of I GS: think was intellectual these NB: #1 So had positive. jealousy marriages they very of two kind of such a fine stimulation. It seemed me or three home glasses truths. critical NB: Looking GS: No. to at They take there was Mm. GS: They had really one wine get a sense sometimes in professidnals. there. I went dinner and to you could start mean two expect some rude and being [laughter] Wolfe--. mild position nothing you got balance flowed another. one one you didn't express [laughter] honest and bitter one about disagreements. One take But it, another. they obviously another. their differences matter. process when They would respected of Virginia would NB' that never high-powered intellectual to as I of The and differences intellectual the differences were a part engagement, didn't of the intellectual growth. NB: How would and compare you contrast their respective personalities? GS: I withdrawn believe, NB: He was him know didn't than was her. very somewhat well. very was She warm and shy? 219 He a seemed warmer friendly. more person. quiet Fawn, and I GEOFFREY GS's SYMCOX I don't it was. she NB: #1 know if he He didn't she seem So did to died? GS: ¥Yeah, I sa. NB: Was GS: I think there a don't of sense know. got was down on going to of I don't his know feelings and quite as what openly as say had best different that. she her of a person grieving? and she the of continual business own make kind wouldn't to her be I think she recognized interests sort that she she was and it. Mm. [END —--very of sad loss. mean Do but might think no as the fact that had @n NB: You GSie I her? But an think don'!t *think 'so. with think what the try so. a that effect don't saying, of she the could and I terrible bring get on him as sense back. best I she of was 1like on her dealing with Richard Nixon personality some that too? so. remember loathsome kind she topics T don't lot him. negative GS: ONE] a way well extremely maybe SIDE felt was without you OF she There she could NB: I did. Bernard ES: shy. express after NB: was awed 30 a person couple he fascination of was. people here [laughter] almost the way GEOFFREY SYMCOX you #1 look were at created influence NB: monsters that way. darkened Didn't it trained historian, a and seem No. her a to how don't or the bit such a heck that anything somebody with in think 1little see topic I days maybe biographical wonder they Nixon's like that. strange, that would strong as go a into preconceived prejudice? GSs This is what understand biograph NB: Or GS: Yeah, NB: Or ESis Yeah, I'm why was she someone saying chose more Nixon. One I could would not expect to sympathetic. empathetic? Right. even mysterious. I don't understand why obviously detested him. I political phenomenon that he NB: What GS: Well, do you the mean of apparatus that were going people proved by whole creation the before. was which who were spying. that and the the I been think civil the Fawn liberties 31 she of the because political embodied. paranoia. incipient police with in off police was the and very issue. as things Where all paranoid the IRS concerned She The state way Watergate. written FBI, when phenomenon? associated culminated had right: of Nixon represented towards kind chose think political trend a she saw were really about Nixon as GEOFFREY a SYMCOX #1 natural personal for that government comes Nixon move in back to this a aberration She and happened. had and make it the of as and lack same of for I ethics. kind when saw really of to a think She she wanted reason regard Again, some his paranoid easy which she of of very that that The kind direction. of 1like, because the question saw the thing That that perversion in. had would to as believed it of He personality. ethics it kind predispositions. controlling for that' moral know one how studies Hitler. NB: Mm. GS: One doesn't know how doesn't necessarily the mean regarded Nixon a and symbol as is as bad as one by T him, very lot of to This any means. thaink; as that development and wants occurred. Hitler political dangerous but thing- ®but®she'saw of cause very Hitler, monstrous beMsifily, would' Thats whole love she moral in wrong a way. NB: outrage moral a maybe projecting was She about had what her sense own happened in of American society. GS: Uh NB: And of huh. maybe the even things what that had happened happened 32 to her to her. within Maybe the some history GEOFFREY SYMCOX #1 department GS: It's that the whole Part GS: Yeah. of would be a think that was detached It was see annoying sense of weren't Well, I the for the <can't some of Was was of kind I don't NB: Oh. GS: Hayden's a cause. I'd associated of preserving they were They might with about enough the perhaps and smart political ---?- gave things, her but she an added could see questions. We same. of any good to moved and allies. I ended far in out 313 on the her? any by and Fawn don't I they means. had always of sense same or circles. style think the White even didn't. Hayden up for about within Hayden different patrician don't here to brash and a forms on close Fawn's wasn't particularly going pretty almost other ground; was little they have of and outspoken a part her what a detached separate. she style was Hayden more know, as think department. GS: into maybe. and pretty dynamics he it irritant was that bitterness things covered off-- make milieu Fawn -—-. GS: spin minor cultural to Mm. a wouldn't not It be process. that I I enough NB: NB: may possible. say NB: which dignity think collaborated. side but not out GEOFFREY SYMCOX of any be completely They NB: #1 personal may know. Where is beginning Jere NB: She was GS: Oh yes, between wrong. I been the have don't GS: empathy this don't over know that in of you England But then anything closest fellow that's them. I may about friends. it. I just in the in the the time mentioned now. King. pretty close to they were. lived not Jere. They 1lived close by Palisades. NB: Oh GS: And really? Jere Fawn arrived they knew close allies got to It's GS: Yeah. NB: It'd GS: Yeah, be bad nice they before the and live what so I think he Fawn. From think--well, that, from late interview to I department in Fawn from department the Jere although away another in about too the one know talking NB: in far but the sixties. she far I think they were moment that He always was thought. away. him. is going to come back here. [laughter] NB: I guess the best can I correspondence. GS: Yeah. 34 do is probably through I "GEOFFREY NB: He GS: The NB: He SYMCOX #1 retired same when? time retired mean they GS: Yeah. NB: A About Fawn '74, '75 little did, almost retired bit the at yeah. the time By time close something to like her she did? she did 1977. same pretty before same the same then? I time. that. then huh? And she retired in department. He U762 GS: Yeah. NB: Mm. GS: I It would don't did know it felt about never GS: Never talked NB: Yeah. Why got was to on work Yeah. I with to she Bernard a he the don't know how Fawn of--? about The retiring I that. department. sense left. about left regret. the her around when much leaving You been exactly without NB: GS: have it. explanation she and wanted I've to got have is that more time research. think that was it. don't I think it had to do any--. NB: There GS: No. wasn't just She any--? had she that reckoned more important thingshto'do. NB: That GS: Her own NB: So it was your work. wasn't feeling She when wanted under any 35 she to get kind retired. on of with other it. problems or GEOFFREY SYMCOX anythings what's GS: All NB: Well, of GS: She 1ike been right. I your was #1 that. Ttils much a face value at said. I would say appreciate time a pretty to good so. your talk about Again spending--giving Fawn person. [END OF INTERVIEW] 36 without Brodie. any me ---?---. an hour