William Fitzgerald, Madison, Wisconsin: an interview by Newell Bringhurst

Transcript (30 pages) of interview by Newell Bringhurst with William Fitzgerald, a former student of Fawn Brodie at UCLA, on July 27, 1991. This interview is no. 368 in the Everett L. Cooley Oral History Project, and tape no. U-1471

Fitzgerald (b. 1930) recalls his association with Fawn McKay Brodie in the 1960s-1970s as one of her students in some graduate classes at UCLA, her interest in his academic career, her interest and strong belief in psychohistory, her dislike of Nixon, and her excellence as a teacher. Interviewer: Newell Bringhurst

Interview No. WILLIAM FITZGERALD 368 HE OF UNIVERSITY LIBRARIES ]TY Q MARRIOTT LIBRARY SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH 84112 UTAH EVERETT L., COOLEY ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION 1B Date I willingly 19_3_L_ to scholarly contribute the Library my testimony of the recorded University on of 2 Utah ot Q to 2 be used for purposes. Open Usable and usable with the after my following review. restrictions: L. 9 H: Interviewee \MCEW Interviewer e WILLIAM FITZGERALD Madison, An Interview Newell Everett Wisconsin Cooley Tape Bringhurst Oral 27, Marriott University LelEs History U-1471 No. Jullsz Grille By A8l Library of EhlEg, Utah Uisell Project Table Juily 27, Tape #1: of Contents 1991 Courses Under Fawn Mentor as Antagonism Fawn Toward Nixon it 14 Income Fawn Why as Such Course U. a of 16 Lecturer a Good 20 Teacher 28 Organization Chicago; Judy’s Disapproval of Fawn 26 THIS 159 S IS NEWELL BRINGHURST AND TODAY IS SATURDAY, JULY 27, WE’RE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN, MADISON, AND I’'M INTERVIEWING WILLIAM FITZGERALD. THE SUBJECT OF OUR INTERVIEW IS FAWN BRODIE. [THIS IS PART OF THE EVERETT L. COOLEY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT. TAPE #1.] The place to comfortable. start The interacted is just logical and became meeting with student at wherever might be where acquainted with you feel you first Professor Brodie. BF: My Okay. graduate of the course. It one American history course. It Dbe probably I University. more took teacher in a would as in take juniors took that a 200 course, did the the Cal. Los course Angeles the in or and At two City San a the Schools Fernando semester, and and it I was a out I was Valley. one the at enjoyed time would It seniors and her. in it course. 400 course with of think or 300 a feon high junior I class. like courses the history, class? history U.S. history package State 182 a week. twice general a a Brodie Mrs. and cliass); was period lecture a was Brodie took I and time, Jeffersonian U.S. General Mrs. general presentation BF: fields. a was the i was pick that at lecturers Eidsaines This cognate my of one as courses history up to began I Education of School the in year a about there been I’d after and University, the into went I 1967. in UCLA a me found Brodie Professor So I education BILL FITZGERALD course to and keep the #1 one up with graduate couple She of had were a American series biographies been something book got Franklin’s hours people from course went. but might come the EHemSNIEr a wae teaching, mentor or individual was a part and colleague. study project the you 2 So kind were she the had of the it it might might the have Gandhi that we met for one or two the way the lectured from questions that ranging required In ofithing. came first the after material the You did they Generally seminars really that courses. the was she a survey week small as come took Generally, that in as with kids. Brodie Mrs. it, dealt were a of a Each interaction alnice seminar was off think remember answering would questions I somehow. twelve to four from 230H or presentations these Now I of--maybe I period, mind so psychohistory lines program. her not teach operated. generally In up. she there the given did notes in and to It Erickson. of began biography using the tail autobiography by basis three day along squeezed the size which my and them, that. leaders work more, of like were been Brodie political two from have in of political framework was Mrs. and program something American course, them. studies her or base history across exploring given readings you that the as a an that were BILL FITZGERALD #1 required, one but individual you that she always what was to what and along quarters. field Mostly In 1973 northern so I And That So the that BF: The that I a job Los be Angeles and of quarter a school and went those those in is course. the I three but great came on were that dissertation such you you dissertation, opportunity be at seminar of learn what couple two deliver to to in my wasn’t results schools administrator, up to the San when? ’74. dissertation. readings, in history didn’t Was it kind of sequence course two a was the--this took first the three the to statements a nice area. was one a California would you so left Francisco starting awfully were on whatever trying Well, was from you onto focused react the the I education, important there. moved 1973 to where that. seminar, was you trying at that at It with basing she about being that and then up. see were good dissertation think in was to paper 1looked there learned, you a scrape trying She did you was be evidence courses, the could and making. also that resources thought BF: you a--was in she--how was again the taught? quarter the fortunately that readings 3 give for you me was a basis in what BILL FITZGERALD it was #1 you Brodie were sort would like Jones of Santa of about. revolved to do and a of my around someday California. Monica All the on Mr. year with biography Senator Jones thirty work that John is the senator Mrs. I Percival founder of from Nevada but he in Washington. Oh, he wasn’t Nevada BF: a California senator was a senator? Yeah, he was one of got involved in and then elected was the Legislature. He then 1880s in the Monica. He develop family in to he to still 1873 a property So Santa He in up Monica was over his by and Nevada married, and in he moved his where they elected and wealth, the residency there he went made Washington set some that Lbde, Nevada community. down residences. ’49ers Comstock went bought that these and Santa began wife to and set up continually £from Nevada. California materials BF: Yeah, pursue So she for this and.she was different thought representing particular most leads you Nevada. researching of process the in resident had 4 that a good you So a were collecting biography? helpful in and was: he So -situation. aprstrange ‘of Jind Thatds in encouraging me to area. topic and was willing BILL FITZGERALD to BF: #1 Because together. occasional an be would Angeles Los on and just compare to until about touch with occasionally courses took is too, and wasn’t be and favorably as and good I’11 she would contact put her I to Judy think have get address as impressed been a in a might TA for different the I the be UCLA in and Brodie, Mrs. under did, department history the in courses some had courses, her; a they’re he Olaf’s St. at up both are Mike and that from doctorate a has who Katulis he Michael’s historian. objective and and pause to son my wife his that know time good know don’t I I UCLA at her. but a is and Judy there. for her, Judy Minnesota, larger from Judy wife she across goodness to honest ran this maybe and studies doctoral doing was Nlieosit ’70s late the in that except her, then‘effectively and ‘76, or 1975 up that did We doing. were they how see other each on in check of sort and notes coffee of cup a and snack little a for campus meet to would We up. her look to try would I and back get would I when time there area, the from away moved I worked we’ve since years twenty been that’s Yes, that? on closely you with work Probably was. have a been TA her. It would peint et view, material in some of BILL FITZGERALD They’re Well in Minneapolis up yeah, they’re there at Cal-Irvine, grant for Irvine give the and don’t you can we maybe not, Now, may BF: up going quieter on, go ahead. a was with while you on the education 1 Judy 920 of In yes. in mail me and background (some place. were Is a--well, there .the side just you generally move up if you’re Northfield, Street-W Mn. 55057 6 worked in mentor. my I other that public getting closely most words? did,sextra rshe intriguing. were Katulis-Fitzgerald Second in things of was that. you that there, she way a saying person and s some basis the let I Eos=2 Brodie, she things but in Cal- on) a back in of August. mid it now kind out schedule, that. find presumptuous be ¥Yesy» on some till put right impressions-- But of I’1ll go Mrs. --of there information, got they’re study; be except them your is huh? of fits can coming --your BF: to will pick conversation Maybe both if‘that the then, Minneapolis, in summer they know you BF: the course.l later down this BF: #1 In field the schools on the recommendations, BILL FITZGERALD they it get #1 a confidential and sends it administrator file. I Brodie a it’s was new amazed me year send out. or a file So the for any important to to that because eighteen and kind recommendation budding have of I hadn’t months when to my University educator a nice she or looking 'routine, been keeps but with Mrs. her asked, maybe could file? It was the nice by all means. she reverse thing. Oh BF: really? This was so novel, it " kind of a caring approach was indeed later on continued in school work school at some. the doctoral There of their way particular, at Chicago didn’t in a terms of never because I of that’s Mrs. Brodie, his relationship i was and to back picked up - togetherness, " the had it. went out there that of think sought to here package with back in up ties my working quite I So did went quite never neither the I again I again. and never people But touch-and-go go to That her. chance there I of and Chicago, helpful, be but work. of couple part education iof '« collegial staff. to a a of the on a were had Chicago. in kindt helpfulness I department studies sameo Ehat¥® Then so University history the to I was each Harris Neil in out a professor my period--it or was Now, there. that other we and had were BILL FITZGERALD looking time for I were harkened later she would share Nixon book was my you for had done a kind of decision making a don’t, you female biographical can didn’t the study." she 8 impact I stayed she of a Nixon, I early I of volume be would offered still volume, second suggested with knew. you’re "If I went. two Nixon. a the thinking a of notes, we All the in was Mr. I "Thank I that why to when years." and thinking going about bring fly, the. and things she the all people, way Nixon, to was note the the effort took in enough--there the why doing darned, understand of imi.one Ti¥said on was couldn’t that you be of understand She That the article just her. over was that working work. I introductory little a times in an was gracious assistance and was I and the she thank was between So find that to periodicals thing. would I’1ll time bouncing of to a she shared volume off But amongst me I of me out nice, kind From the was work them little. couldn’t I it in couple send came she devoting but something Nixon a would was remember the So sending just heri other. example, mailed name work, each geography for to and heard, two on My ’'70s. clippings a at. papers, stages help California-Illinois Chicago It’s to stumble was Northern the ways might I that #1 that a to woman to her although, BILL FITZGERALD of #1 course, health to and learn all. from friend. can there I've left Yes, had in BF: I so normal a but may she I have you was finishing people; was his of But I look and them as and of a was that you, or that a you that at? students, mutual Was kind was with perhaps of that other you were remember some of the same once 9 we special in my category, working in off in don’t her family time, set know, up, in there when I one I school, East, the to as together, medical a struggling time The hers. in struggle been had she I internship. at a psychoanalyzing somewhere Boston, saw such were we was possible. know relationship. it for provide to boys sort her things kind with that her just to something that doing some was God, time was wish in seen family my for it to feel the think as what recall, of moment working been--oh have earlier for a graduate Do that may provide for on, category? know she way, her students? don’t stop interactive with special had that surmise to you there of person say might like ever her graduate you going to focus a terms you made just in able me sounds attraction she--did be we that things pleasurable don’t give it other real to why out so A and Now, perhaps were and she maybe me, were we he that’s other were in BILL FITZGERALD #1 the small the classes dinner seminar, one probably Sharon was was had in. night, should probably She I we So have the one is year married and she Angeles schools and would towards her functioning doctorate SnEsthe to sort of able to It it. e E my address for was advisor couldn’t not do it. that I 2 1974 Los Angeles (WF 2-2-93) address. = to wanted wasn’t think phone 10 use was number her still may be of ed a or were about not being her very well. aware well therefore her as she a there’s maybe a policy was try and we about, and something there was up that probably are got school from doctorate, a who students found you and that, she Los working she So that night last me to the been she look students graduate that. of and quandary your you myself, like if thinking was to SmayShave " some S pasit book--I’1ll I have the MWL out one know in her 1like in left. hifstory with locate I of that something stayed one G-e-r-t-l-e-r. student either along.2 dealing Fawn graduate UCLA, s choolME occurred reason of Gertler don’t in names probably after took the or she four us working I think UCLA out that send I at in address was doctorate. but of graduate sixth of of Sharon was doctorate, group three and another in a a of the doctoral wanted. She there that 559-2641 but no BILL FITZGERALD #1 said--now talk this about wasSntERt it e much, she somebody else’s part when of wen! you’re don’t know. and I you But I permission educators And she’s smoothly. not or to on, filter somewhere, maybe and it the was reason you weren’t, did field. come I and I we had a you the and they that’s and eyebrow, just my reaction the expressed indignation or something. You yesterday Nixons fall early in of ‘72 October through I that’s up, used was I a trying a halfway a problem. in the in in that because major students, education her raised a was Eeellings¥against in for committee a she gave you, they didn’t move a--? But of my because think docters in didn’t involvement I something we be major and use was mentioned you Nixon to that there Yeah, kind on a look that was relationship, Really? said of up--that couldn’‘'t to that’s to came came because committee. start aware of get out have doctoral couple Yeah, just couldn’t remember, decent BF: it check ENEindMEhempractiicing Maybe So can doctorate “ she involvement, BF: you would some Is it. session that she something, about had strong she ‘tEhat-=? as the the of imagine st to that detected it presidential news the it of election Watergate began communications, and maybe the was like BILL FITZGERALD #1 fifteenth or indignant in the I words twenty after on not the that had I that to get was that explore that and she gave the she’d made specific was may some ties friend at UCLA; and references interesting, 12 that find that knew to that she Ellsberg those, and be able might have impression interacted that This you her You thing. of you if leads some professor So kind different a that’s remember I of some on in was Ellsberg think a that things etcetera. homes, their in meetings same back-door and professors associated of colloquium it was was colloquium, UCLA a in participant time, the of I another was Ellsberg also into in Sheep, and up Watergate, was that But patients think i psychoanalyst. she break-in. that close -were yesterday commented my picked of the Ellsberg though I think it. of are dovetailing with that. of time the out think how remember these hadn’t coming business just frustrating; media I it. at was "It’s now was the were Ellsberg know don’t part how that just know, It she says, She years. frustrated the October, understand--" understand was don’t I don’t revelations was she of classroom. the frustrating, could BF: twentieth another to you does knew and might tie. Ellsberg, that? She that? yesterday the conversation BILL FITZGERALD turned #1 on the psychoanalyst. this class. She gone No, never or we feeling could, that of was writing on. And the of the mentioned that the were and sexuality. was couldn’t her hope she was of the she’d in years childhood main to ever she theme in understand 13 and talk the got check about and she it’s if or her always you yesterday important were she ever-- reminisce ever about was work sexuality, or that to childhood that? classroom, these I to she Did session that the it the of remember things two that know, you the out. trying childhood can’t I people Did was she all a psychiatrist déing. was think, I the she own know feeliné say--did her other her That in she that come interpretations to idea. this to contact the where that years? growing-up one the up that else didn’t did have own about stressed come process needed that she nature going I recollect the anything we but I research was really comment in or where a her what shared psychoanalysis. that that psychoanalyst, some she then? of on undergone stressing generally and didn’t really biography through no, didn’t had and Ellsberg That mentioned psychology the She or seminars BiEE: that same undergoing BF: idea people really. We unless we BILL FITZGERALD #1 looked at their made the often material the childhood study biography we appeared in Joseph this was I year when book somehow She said, proceeded of couple royalty she was "Yeah, to Smith the the press was sort of finances, of or ’71. It check check came of dollars hadn’t proceeded her 14 tools where the guess my a 1little, time the mail," year it was of the Smith chipper the 'So she book, that day. and she gets a royalties from the fact in paper and that been send to interesting. course, every that felt own glee, the from in the her I her pretty came in buck was of the times the page-- psychiatry. up. particular explain book of in feeling the hundred that toward was She using of come that page Now, couple four third not How or third concern. tools would ‘70 by three the her from. a maybe in the and .the. came remember early boat and remember is I the she orientation maybe missed the of past. person on She kind the in the form whatever, Smith because sudden adult that from covered on effered childhood, a sexuality. little This where their how know. really ERatiFrendl of frequently of you and biographies all or that’s in was and phenomenal, that point existed paragraphs the childhood put her Then husband those checks. terms in was of well-off That her or BILL FITZGERALD #1 reasonably well-off expertise. know if home? Los I section or was it had thinking about the in a happened, been to the the like in the Parade on a tour time was in terms they had studios. forget but it just she supposedly She I and that because I of had were received guess why. that There was go. She didn’t chunk a that, of through photographs Drives out don’t of and money I one that the his in -film. of with home another and it or the payment one of home; you Devil’s ground, chunk a took money, from their ’70s, was The and that lovely making that get did was work building the received off to of They and commitment something in Drives. made--she got the There bucks Devil’s never seen papers great. mentioned some been coverage and was his not something. home, that The have Angeles the have you There with of money. BF: came That rather something she that, enough guess, to and not tightfisted is kind and 1like factors motivating So I up, going of that rights screen the was it Maybe to scholarship a maybe and book happen. presented if writing little Those well-off. were who students graduate too sold? had she that you’re perhaps 15 it within careful this and will a if context you happen B like do good for you. BILL FITZGERALD Would we BF: you call Yeah, I say the would say message Dream, be know in the I mean? what it. I can’t I don’t know why. I something that came up. just not that you developed because you were were struggling, Did that You got to you had be were a coming and case with three together. Did she with those more Sharon was or newly that, wasn’t don’t know mentioned family the that relationship mentioned empathize Now, closer older, tend No, think--you a you know. what say but she I you stretching perhaps Perhaps. believer got, mentioned or a don’t You toward of I that’s of kind No, why, kind four you and you of that. these other students seem to at that gravitate older married with back all that students? the time if recall. So BF: was that. I students? BF: she American that can’‘t the #1 she her could How little late ’20s be did that there? a from her, Because were you a much younger that how was talking larger-16 surely she but don’t was know, but that when you took be. lecture she did that were could large the I, I time. that at then? than younger point, she--in situation, They somewhat a was She in was class interact in a about with students different how many type in of students? BILL FITZGERALD BF: Yeah, NB: 200, there it She in made there where 200 lecture that class as the a dilemma, in about she this now--as pause came and good strategy to to class. when audience, them there. come seminars? same time there was a concern as I for recall--and there was questions or when the hand because it helped that were flow, when which to the by not time she question probably clarify questions when I’'m recall, the problems the she the interrupt students did at I raise How with but the would in compared presentations, encouraged the to large out sure close a was someone so were was across BF: #1 was for to one a all or two. So BF: she strongly people to ask questions? Yeah. She said, strongly BF: encouraged "Please feel encourage her make to manner she would up; NP MEvensecs comment. To that had Did she she make seem, and then the then point some #but kind it I that sure terms ik She of the point was good her ideas, at was across. of follow- carried was &the came what L« I/m « drivingstat2® « kind\ clarified. in questions. and it, to that sure answer Like ask ithelwverbal ¢ ithing), respond would She to questions." Yeahrieeandisnot i just response. free of and that. her books, she BILL FITZGERALD expresses in her and BF: Was she ideas and in of the talking two three part of the Biography of It would Now, opinions in class came and for there National in terms from my same time SwheniSyous were that was that in been an didn’t we time same the had forgot. I book? course; or in fit that did have these the for judges where that a period was there read class that Now that. was the elsewhere things the to In she have think been like if would almost and would it understanding; ideas statements. she she just about been have I Jefferson the of her presented, before have of in her Adams something Award. for she similar one was timing the that yesterday, it she where source preparation. do strong way? Quincy done very presentations like couldn’t to about talk strong the John have occasion pretty biographies preparations must and lectures about or she had opinions the a in generally terms as strong seminars the She very books? her in #1 frame. BF: s ontilleo ThaEdsiN talking yesterday another staggering Eons Neof National Was she, workload in what Award, terms of a 18 workload, the about ‘boeks®for « that Book 8 Sol theought I ERwhat because for « study, was it? presenter she don’t I of was reading that award, know. material, would BILL FITZGERALD you say she did she, in or BF: #1 No. I was working had the She terms don’t her here I not what went along would notes and on style," so or to how speak, say and low-key, she the had notes. the I but she data, she don’t think I animated. was it lecturer, low-key? that her animated "pulpit of kind from that was dynamic, of know data say would a more she was was you would call a real animated lecturer? BF: she No, sort aside about, of sort her reactions, of someone to his being journey and vessel. Anyhow, the impartial would that got a feel killed that kind to observer way be a for what of she 19 doing of a conversation of those the irony some trying to get back the not making on the--no, she died of thing, what saying was was she by from doing and East the in daughter was going situation, Hamilton Alexander like the to reactions was get would You he She sort 1little you keep would still was it but what wonder conversation. students. the with a continuing notes, her she Just, know. you there?" might you "Now, a make or herself to chuckle of might or she and evidence, the presented she knew, she what read had she what presented and just the on would be guess going on. I Yet, you somehow it. thinking because of some BILL FITZGERALD of the #1 asides know; this da, and she is animated. where she did," animation came the were was from he you drew think I the even what da da own would say of were she I your quality where you, is did, They into taking all-- was though the going you were was this mad. really that thing the and den’t tuned "Here what students. like notes no. here’s I she was that what you scribbling So story, with frequently Animated, Thatswit. Her interaction and the here’s conclvsiens S took. out stood interaction? BF: It was me. for Sefishethad rapport BF: Uh with students? her huh. dissatisfied to Not didn’t come from but your there where that across check again but say--sure, a would student be her? challenge knowledge, my you Yeah, or where situation a never was There BF: ‘excellent had she say 'would real--you Judy. with experience was you problem a there? BF: No, Or I somebody Nobody BF: No didn’t one ever did have would occasion an that. "You’re say, her challenged to Her 20 or see that. all wrong confronted classroom on Ehatsit her? demeanor wasn’t a BILL FITZGERALD #1 confrontational approach, Dbecause you trying about subject under to learn wouldn’t have student or Because been the you BF: know was come on with professors in your study. one, confrontational. courses very Yeah, much again I the It either the the dictum. can be I'm sure kind of you’ve time. have with You working with said the were you it was a of sum it It sure in at to go back, you were a research. her at maybe beginning, learning learning, you were experience. because saying that that kind Would up? answers. She begin to question, tangent, sharing but her ignorance. lucky I find she nonetheless wisdom with haven’t met that I did you many have Zal knew to all the it all. When She gone that get rid teachers like several you when had you over well, had you. encourage felt she if knew or learn, or would she you contradict and dig to you she that implied never she that implied never very up it sum would That yes. would, she was her mutual because I opposite. just teammate like BF: some and enough to for both Yes. She BF: appropriate teacher, intimidating taken the were the off begin might on was she of a your her, years. and I BILL FITZGERALD don’t at #1 want to Cal-State Cal-State Mann’s the Northridge, and did that she BF: Well, she with for that she sounds like something brag, I if Virginia, that and I’'m looking giving it a and on the but sort have the she Now, that wasn’t is So work. about to get that home way her a word anyhow, speech and the speech have normally self-effacing of would I but to pleased terms teachers in filled wanted in many not of yesterday forward you merely very her When or was it, students, 22 about would where Virginia. read. bit I comments the presentation, her. been-- about guess to more in comes I may. cold not she was It Mr. a working she that that. of recollection at? because their with work things, in gave a the day was quite of you from speech shared some the input get her, guess at Chicago. Not been Minger Bullough he at I Mr. but talk have think you at .Jefferson, would the to or up detail, when Maybe Harris have Nixon, share lesson Mr. else. she would period great the go. she would terribly Mr. of of currently finishing Jeffersonian think outstanding, was on I think something she and just I much--did her Jefferson been was that taken but and were talk books had names, Northridge, lectures fish, So drop have no to that the in finding BILL FITZGERALD NB: So she did never she work, really, talk of indignant of Watergate when That We I would if she in paragraph She her Nixon working weren’t coming out? on it, she was looking into see that much of--I don’t recall. to look back at notes because so down R oudon/timind jog, a a Ehat those find there.3 in Were presentations? her in organized I if see what’s see and look a L4 lESlle e "me " and look a take gotten as just notes, the in have Mr. on aside it would I 1lecture my taken aside, or well was not they given a detected, campaign 1972 a take and notes you wasn’t the gone I Nixon know, she just have until go as you that was it have g answer fact didn’t would MEMS Gy about, because the almost Nixon far throughout say too. as much course, you but BF: #1 they--2? BF: there she a was had to good scholarship. well, yesterday historical 3 My notes not what That’s we smarts did do were and show 25 or four of bibliography cited each generally--for was there but later, it was, sort of this. of (WF the at looking some five good on see you’ll a--well, had We yes. Yes, Meticulous. her 2-2-93) it lecture that books scholarship, side some from-of her historical BILL FITZGERALD #1 knowledge, and number of of weaknesses history. true. her We I suppose just a enough in that you character that you historian had the and the on in the American that at in just wasn’t of the biography. being them in history. We courses, those generally We fields both sexuality that again, that’s were in of look sense enough, the them of her training one a good taught psychohistory. getting a training training of were psychology was she the chronology was she be suppose wasn’t working with impact to to in I and go benefit of benefit the seeing to was seminars her exact; time were had_the generally of of she chronology, tutored fields; and psychology there historian that two in trained a had people the her were seemed that that’s being being one in frequently class, Thus generally audience the of direction it and and childhood. is Now, course, the that Was biographies? BF: It parts, Oh, a so with it thematic the was it difference a was War a as then? how did different with difference? difference the sequential 24 sequence, deal just biography political two-course content a Civil reaily a it be--it to seemed was Would differ? they it say you way in the two break. content rather than BILL FITZGERALD #1 BE: ‘¥es) uhShuh® NB: The first part course dealt second one teach a of the with dealt up This'wasiiepithisswas NB: Psychobiography BF: American NB: --was BF: Uh was NB-S was political huh. Now, the of the in political Civil after course BE: history to with specific American War, Civil biography and War. then She psychobiography the didn’t then? it. part of the--? biography. biographical maybe there psychology wasn’t theme. another; maybe that it. S EhenWSthbisashalstery W course), survey course history course, it like more was this generai U.S. 200 this then, freshmen for "wasn/tthel was it 1828 or advanced, = BF: something NB: to 1800 course Well, up to 1828, so that was sort and a hundred and seminar and course, of UCLA like--at undergraduates--or were the then seminar like--% would I division, upper an be would it period forget, I freshman 4 The that. to 1800 America, Jeffersonian like level junior BF: a was It No. sophomore. course Studies. 25 Then was the 100 History the numbers I'm courses SOrry, were 230H-Directed BILL FITZGERALD like BF: #1 juniors graduate courses. Okay, this so the a The 100 course? American graduate, level 200 courses were political were they these were graduate you were saying biography, courses then? Yeah. [Break] BF: was seniors. Yeah. Then BF: and So Mrs. recommendation helped you Yeah, I scheduled in ‘Northern 1981 Illinois department roam by agreeable they seems to me there was a had This one through gone son me let with Mrs. that one Chicago had attended letter a of herself, have there son. 26 to just they were and Mrs. my Fawn, from on my suspect--now it partly I Brodie’s of Brodie one but gotten for in to think I were student-at-large Brodie. through--might that a already. there and to history happened letters studies, my a go student-at-large, a as to have I of then? fall They included me the Chicago, the at accept tie in as enroll letter Chicago good. of which did relationship gone University file, with proceed reasonably looked they placement and to into University. that’s the partly was get Brodie’s a a of daughters, course her had children doctorate. while. Yeah, this BILL FITZGERALD BF: Well, then wife? Yeah, she was a Okay, so anyhow, them, but if a I wished, part the the doctoral orals. note and gracious she You saw Well, I a nice the now, letter, and college at But £hatfs So you Chicago you I it I But not them anyhow, that’s got years couldn’t did contact that five I get me into working through on the [Break] have letter I that You I been an extremely guess, it was have know now effect was I that strong time, no what’s saying ready to that was and idea one what in that those she said there. It I a was in teach in of the a was good junior early ’'70s. alfiieight. on the the doctorate, you UCLA, and you dissertation. When you stage dissertation on that. there must in worked working there. that about but things. know student could suspect. confidential you? or letter. I about son, were do for that. wrote Gracious, never went was The didn’t background I her suggested program, That folks was I been there. these it where have student but of Chicago BF: might his meet BF: it been have BF: #1 would at have 27 to start and got were to actually transferred go the through to the BILL FITZGERALD orals BF: again. I've I #1 had a problem, guess sum up and you in in conclusion, terms of know, conclusion about? your in you the was gave halfway a what me the in talked and I appreciate the time where Fawn as feeling, and now I’m with you thinking Judy just that she there were a lot of TAs, and Judy was 28 your as were? to back was one and maybe a Her ago. years was situation taken, wasn’t what a at. I'm she Fawn pressured an down Did reaction of people, me you’ve I to made [Break] why with in being by that off. impressed she gave myself, to relate that Fawn contribution that’s had the just and the student it historian, this to that 3 say that conversation a Fawn along, own my and field the ever number to we’ve impact goal, make can I all decent favorably of observations teacher lifetime daughter-in-law got like would ONE] said for shut I would general SIDE I’ve VECLTESSENS amd you impressions with any OF and how well, Okay, you outstanding me to road the BF: an of example general make what classroom, just anything statements? --reinforce Brodie there connection [END BF: is anything Would concluding this is-- [Break] of a it was reading BILL FITZGERALD exams a for very Mrs. some with extra her it a BF: task that so Judy and much that dealing just must workload. studies wasn’t and it of relationship workload and kind graduate maybe the Brodie, enjoyable just So #1 It was to she her it might given in as to her a TA not have been fit in stipend. herself had with been must earn Brodie have as it was terms of the rathér than as student? Thgt's possible, Brodie in hard and terms of taskmaster. students; she She did and if someone it, you would some of was have things a been might hard that they couldn’t find the time hurry; you a in it have do Mrs. been taskmaster demand lose that for their a her homework, to stay with left be would behind. or saying, very good"? work not BF: I no. experiences, in our I Eeealli®ithat, don’t writing were doing "Did you she that there knew was the weaknesses Bill, we short were another 28 place in it but this, at out point would did she to would would look, is in my weaknesses the our you "This that recall don’t She research, our look, Where or or sloppy," really is "This the doing not for students reprimand ever she Did thought be look as we lcindSeEy at that?" just remind us that kind of BILL FITZGERALD #1 thing. So she tried saying, "You look e No, that She was do it might Ehis admonishing BF: to a consider positive this," IEatlien & than' and A Okay, her guess of "You a way should ridicule or of style. a positive type riight I or through, suggestions. BF: sort reprimanding? wasn’t more in I’'ve-[END OF INTERVIEW] 30 of --constructive,