Aziz S. Atiya, Salt Lake City, Utah: an interview by Everett L. Cooley

Transcript (53 pages) of interview by Everett L. Cooley with Aziz S. Atiya, Middle East scholar and librarian at the University of Utah, on August 12, 1985. This interview is no. 42 in the Everett L. Cooley Oral History Project, and tape nos. 328 and 329

Atiya (b. 1898) discusses his early life and schooling in Egypt. He also talks about his career at the University of Utah, which included the establishment of the Middle East Center, and Middle East Library, and his work on the Coptic Encyclopedia, 1950s-1980s. Interviewer: Everett L. Cooley

University of Utah Marriott Library Manuscripts Division Ms 814 Everett L. Cooley Oral History Project Interview #42 Aziz S. Atiya AZIBZ Salt SS Lake An L. L. Cooley NS City, Utah interview Everett Everett AT A Oral 288& Augusith 12, by Cooley History 529 11985 Marriott Library University of Utah Sallth LakenCity,» Utah Project TAELE = amily Early Education. Education. French Law History School. » Education Fellowships in opitEetiiawpoInE Lecturing & Fulbright Eellow. Heading Stopover Pursued in & . to . L. in . Expedition to . TN Writing Catherine's Invited England. Received. QO 8 CONTENTS Background. Higher St. OF . 18 o Germany. . . . Campuses. 5 City. Persuaded by 24 .29 Sinai. American Lake . . Monastery. Salt 20 . Pres. Olpin. UNIVERSITY LIBRARIES | UN MARRIOTT LIBRARY SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH 84112 UTAH OF EVERETT L. COOLEY ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION Date I willingly 19 ¢4 to scholarly contribute the my testimony of the and usable Library w13 recorded of University on R Zflfl*‘t /2 - )3 Utah to used be for purposes. v Open Usable with the after my following review. restrictions: RipspInterviewee ézc@fi/ ¢~ Interviewer /M/ WE'RE RECORDING AN INTERVIEW WITH DR. AZIZ S. ATIYA. TODAY IS MONBASAYGUST 12, 1985, AND THIS IS A RECORDING WITH PROFESSOR AZIZ S. ATIYA, DISTINGUISHED UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR, EMERITUS PROFESSOR OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF UTAH, FOUNDER AND FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE MIDDLE EAST CENTER. WE ARE RECORDING IN THE ECCLES ROOM OF THE MARRIOTT LIBRARY, AND THIS IS PART OF THE EVERETT L. COOLEY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM. EC: Dr. Atiya, tell us you in lines Very bit born, our interview about some Egypt. Let plus. of So we me begin Let's 1898, your the with So America. Now, village background; let you I by I born in conforms with the where a that was generally of saying of I tell was to when your early along thousand those a side the village What was was like the name loeatad # say from Well, it's the which really lies on the I was of was and 5th of July in born in nowhere, fiaimiiliies to with nothing The country village the very 1 ilving other side of me. exactly where is it a miles Cailro? insicde the branch means bank of the that same Jjust Nile. to also, stature; of delta, the nothing attached, important west village. foreign the situated El-Aysha, more a of Damietta much of I farmland, together one on village SthireleMCopitaich on eighty-seven Fourth that in people, am Egypt people born, I twolNor But you where, proceed siple cllailF i Non I from getting circumstances will see, which America. the AA: little well. July, a begin now. years EC: a were life AA: let's It's practically to another is faw name everybody. village Al-Ghorayib, branch of is the of a which Nile. It AZTZ S. ATIYA #1 is supposed in Egypt any than village has one Eeterd tolpdie’sMof personally, the strongest I " farmiland sat with and in him; that we country. That famous prime most area. know him wide owned who Pasha Sidky that's Egypt, of ministers village of the in other pashas more produced which village the be to 'l as smet him part of the one of the What were =g P Well, I =1 Q family. Approximately. his b= . Q After = = Okay. = = can't Approximately the AA: famous from British their My family landowner usually any the the twenties. of this ministers That family there? exactly. is occupation. century. in the during Now was history the what background, He of Egypt, liberation is the of a Egypt question? something of your family occupation. background concerned, worked livelihood them after man. your and recall prime very About of twenties strongest BEE years he was is 2 himself. had property, tradition a sScribe He was vocation, because of As and landowners. wealthy for simple. the a as tradition father being of trade. in possession Copts and he a was by the is and grandfather My Mormons--technicity 2 my “alccounitant, carpenter besides the far Copts is of 1like education. AZIZ s. ATIYA The #1 older because Copts here Carpenter RECs That's ATAS= and the followed his was going that the usually. Copts caliph can possessions and remain them, leave them E€: Now, mind are a human being. their you of a the Copts would more be? tradition that can a with king or requisition anything mind or the at their permanent And Joseph the great said the skill their all, but skili. The things Copts a which observed that history. said schools Are without thelr of Egyptian been dispossess carpenter's Jesus. say. always the with throughout to has heleannetyregquisitieon skill young they and the example average This because for the apprentice, I educated Usually, preference they what highly had it the was a small village. area? Were you was placed in able What to about obtain the good schooling? AA: To begin Kuttab. an with A Xuttab mustaba, and the which chilldren metal plate tools. When mezailNpillaite’ talking life I about later. and you ort a But is a is room an talk paper, more that which elevated wouid resed in what a they shaykh adobe sgua®t en The an about the ardoise progressive is 3 how inkpot, wasiia I It call sit with the item, came because on structure, their writing instead rpare thing. began of floer and to would kind pen which: used of the you are into there my was AZTZ S. ARTYA #1 nothing BE: AA: What else in the percentage A small A small village of the except children that. would go to And their this school? study usually percentage? percentage concentrated Although, on as the now, a rule. Koran. you were a Copt, you still studied tTo learn how the Koran? Although <3 (5Pl and I write Whate am with about Did a Copt, the your I still Koran in the =ducaticn you have the that is usually have to read background. in the opportunity, or Coptie: was literature? that within the home? AA: No, EE: I JATASS But afterwards the And place was in theras Now, when village, school. I of my began you of some say a home. the Usually by the much moved bigger moved an that opportunity we to moved of of regular more to from another estates sort from village go a El-Aysha, village modern Would of a regular which where thousands school. to into my is father acres, and schooling. this be a school state? by family had birth, charge I we ultimately provided my the see. bigger AA: in state. to town. a The place It's 4 regular called the education Zagazig, capital of began which the when is Shargiya a #1 And regular modern I school think money There I thing remains it would remained from salute And contact with visited Saint I archbishop him icons outside at all. There are the Library treasures wittn anotner World War happened me and of 1is it in the is Princeton Kitchener, This the second still Lord was war. icon in University my icons to be a 5 his with had his that the the centerpiece Catherine. to anyone of expediticn manuscript presented one icon m befor: and archbishop for The monastery the was he Sinai. the from It war, drowning the released anothe given got high of archbishop Kitchener a memory Saint microfilm the had rows I conducted possession. as of in icon to icon We one in Mount of lost The in are I and placed before Catherine after Sinai, So Just monastery Saint Mount I. were in dollars. British Lord an six the about Congress icon. was free which schooling. vigorous Later, of of very thousands Catherine. year, a with wasn't education, children later. school--a elementary it a that who as him more my for, pounds from Catherine's No of We much presented had elementary have talking I equivalent memory Egypt. him. visit. six Kitchener in elementary paid the my my Lord " was be an where was for in commissioner Saint entered Mthaltiischooll education. to I elementary Sdillcaltioni visit there S Province. ( ATLYA (U S5 F 4 AZITZ the gave monastery used their what by the exhibit ATTYA on the #1 artwork monastery dollars BEE your AA: what in that had a set English. histery was Would that About a What suppose EC: I see. it recording for the fifty thousand special did you have early age particularly field early. which that you of ended up in? on. The and so years everything. Arabic generally so four studied included were and We arithmetic taught other on, which language, in 3 ngli| subjects, were when Ve in s 1ie the Arabic. completed, Cairo. four would I too period Jjunior AN Then much and a an the geography hald®to®zo " to EE: at humanities and for interests? program mathematics That you your The insured schooling, history, was expedition loss. Were were No, of early interested second Princeton case interests? Or, the icons. in N'ow ;' of n S5 ] AZTZ: years be high, it or equivalent middle to school, what or level a high here? school? be? Jjunior high. Okay. we moved secondary tc Calro schools in because Egypt. there These wer= were only tarece concentratszd InSCairo. e Now move AAS No, is to they this the primary reason? Cairo? didn't move to Cairo. 5 Did your whole family I AZTZ S. ATLYA EEs OhSsIS E AA: They who #1 e just sent tortured discarding roof BE of What me to Cairo did you on a other in death living building, about similar to and a children me and my very company have background, in or I modest were I cousin succeeded rented your family you older a room in on the living. of your an whom own. members of family? and alone did the How they one many have to get a an education? AA: More How or less, many AA: Eleven, BE: Did AA: More EC: Where AA: The children of they whom have or did similar fit so I there? died more you oldest, were six a less, brothers. oSt we-- or in I had and two AN family? the pace other slelc ondiid sl engineering. departments He of background? less. for the brothers. tobe Wi nspecitoritof llanzualcel survived. educational the set five family One Selducaitiioni alie published electrical of o and them s thiel other turned Enoidiish e alll Saie nEisI IinNellic citiz i call profusely and engineering in he established Baghdad and in one is Nigeria. EE: Aroltheyasittlillbiving, S yeursfamily? AA: One dead. of them, The one younger of them one is was 7 still alive. educated in The Zurich. older He had his AZIZ S ARIYA 7#1 universities Now, the Europe school that again is The this first second more two two you the secondary EC Hadn't AR Nojnos. EC: Never, AA: There science to and 1519 a the time were you able or once subject, education, between prior and the science and There of my only two were graduation higher to when an forty The you to of were where no ZIfrom schools. this? was as medicine leave exterminated 8 higher a of schools if excellence. stayed years school in for at and In the medicine. two the years time three for I as me months. I science. medicine? medicine from revolution law, admissible classes four of these of I medical M.D. in years the one school level medicine student. prompted Just entered only as medicine, certain in graduate was were science. There of you section medical What Cairo, decide universities school admitted stayed I a achieved was at in huh. was you been to "took Egypt schcol. there education, a in I The lectured. general have th'eWhumanidtties. of education? were you one specific a on years I attended general years universities where there concentrate to AA: in was® WU n'ifvelrsitty, i chi Zur v nicitdientGallil University. Zurich from science doctoral of degree of Egypt during broke the out year of against NZTZN Sic ATURYEAS 7] the students the Tommies So AA: I I had and was the after in front So Paris. School during out =sduecation Ior and of in French was the the University of the that place only the education there law studied baccalaureate, literary a affiliate an was which I higher for me of school, the in Law. this how getting assistance paygtor It? No, my father went had to attend to needs. further baccalaureate literary Law, of schools, AA: thrown was I result firom for go and anew start to Now, a of and, twice But being? French EE: As you exclude then this! School of and tTwice medicine. of school the Andeidiide AA: don't I students [laughter] escape. to managed I course, time the for Although some with at demonstrating and Egyptians. now. not I'm rebel. a was a the bricks rebel. a were you of for of imprisonment. tasted BE: police arrested was I it, look Egypt of principle the at and throwing streets the into went who one be to happened Jjust was--I I occupation. British you did from needs to did the of family the you revolution, during as you Wers survive? or father, these attend to expensive manage your bankrupt the it was time well have and as to I my AZTZA S EE: And AA: I ATEVA #1 how did you enrolled of in do the agriculture. government There Sevenall cllockuntil studied. Well, clarify this earning ten pounds for a another job in the to So needed and I was good I taught English I became a =1 Q Studying = = kept Oh yes, = Q this It wasn't No, law, what at the going regular before sort the a so two the in had I Jjust government to are not look for teaching of the to me month a say, afternoon district job tTthe in city. afteraocon spend certification had your two [ hours and for was did another every classes tutorial the At and 10 twenty studying you a background particularly hours I for teacher and your school-- overnight; graduating I secured secondary law, classes. from, stage--let pounds ithen ministry English. while of the in district with French the morning clerk on, I in Iny anothern languages attended a in You'd for a live wasn't millionaire us I Ten to time? elementary very month. teaching that the later as other there at the dilsiErplcit, teaching--mainly see. at schools the clerk oliclock. afternoon. diinione traveled I a a in worked family local INwiorlke I as worked twol point. ofisthe I actually enough one A that? have at ten pounds the to English. pounds a French so month. law. attend classes? course in night. situation? end of having my what they French called a AZTZ 5., ATTIYA #1 License &an country secured country, first a of The Droit, of tremendous prescribed. by EC: law I'm a to was the British? Well, Nobody study I to would look a yet, now, at me. a things: for law. Now With there was school of class was day night. people for who being So I moved it was, But if at look first instruction English. Where 19 in I but practice the was rather it than history of Egypt. established a strong was language indicated your in of here Britain, French anyone would studying--in in the at 1798-1801 spoken to you was and talk everybody two qualify through think of Egypt, could in opened French that have language--as English, about system 1in on college, education independent country to the education. the So law, immediately. expedition base made in of an the like administered you be was would curious legal French English. class kind For second training education actually second And would being French French BE: who the The and little Egypt AA: day to teachers. higher night this education for A has and public the in independence. army, need education, from its the opening teachers, license concentration all worked a accepted in the Egypt, street talked in to as but a not French. anybody in me. that earlier, school--you along the you were line did were getting you get AZIZ AA: BE: AA: S. ATIYA #1 instruction in I baccalaureate got my French? necessitated the history, French So and you were and yet No, I more you Now, the facile more this the French and in humanities, which language, French French French and literature. than you were English, English? facile outright. was of poetry, taught was English study in I in could because English, but I French, but not use of the couldn't conflict, use English. the political confillict? AA: Political the conflict, French expedition established tradition the EC: I the then when French started established Napoleon Institute from that invaded in date, tradition Cairo, and it since Egypt so was the and French retained in country. was always under administrative founded this AA: and It on not was as although EC: What AA: Both French British way. a was educated English was It popular English about and rather so than however, on the was that the pretty French much system. Is case? that French impression, bureaucracy the the the used and was language taught people? French. more that and What More popularly 12 way, yet Egypt rather than everybody knew was their English than English, it. language than English. accepted French, then? but ECh And AA: After ] what about the anyhow, the I training which completing it had assurance of school was and to the at me and morning, for I a supper, algaimiesEudiyasuntiiss morning, A and run moving for four And at the end At the end of the four I granted to couldn't the day French higher sectio medicine, secience. upon I I the for had to use head of the to four until my home, one the years; afternoon, to I wanited section the back sleep The in a and a have a o'clock, up job. And so did you what then was done, nimyallisie SRS TN understand classes 115 the circle k DT that. years, years WasHGhe B Ll psitemnaraclclii because to first like years four race Jjob science left there in higher sisaiolicliockoriEfitve Nollic llge ki in it he to of to go I science teacher used the prevail worked the the humanitises. the I in 1 teacher's entered with the to from a Well and because Since and school, graduated. I anything friends night. food wish. history of when accepted my section, in little was you happened? continued. education after So do move literary student I to influence clerk system against want school an security. literature the higher thing without college, didnt €t same law no training the What the college had revolution? Jjoined regular law the revolution French the after S ATTEA 0] t I ¢t S W AZIZ and it. the The have in e oI B higher night a-- my opinion, E R - niiir = e Le diplcma classes on was the AZIZ S. ATIYA #1 How AA: Well, to was I there. in ancient with the the reigning never a of the chairman now? In AA: In Liverpool. EC: In Liverpool. AA: In the University of of the department, who was the professor told him about names such as So period; Ali, two, and the understand it. to the I went where? or England Where happened of department. EC: who it. in education real had kind didn't I me. went I what those Between In got Mohammed Napoleon, for vacuum a was England until dynastic the and Egypt. of dynasty Ages Middle attractive included which modern and a on sent I but history, Great, the Alexander Cleopatra, I interested The history? the when myself discovered really hadn't I England, of twenty-eight. course, Of happened. miracle another England twenty-seven, been have must I my time? that at you were old iHER and me. for paid was Everything stipend. a with me to mission educational mission, free a mission, day was I result a As suppression. its until school the foundation the since largest the was which second, between margin a with class night the and of first the be to out turned I Well, level. same University The be to my of Liverpool? Liverpool. wishes. 14 I George professor I wanted to went the of to the chairman W. Coopland Middle study the Ages and ancient AZIZ S. ATIYA and #1 the said, modern, "This and is a medieval very difficult school of ancient history modern, so to a have to what make hold we a can Would delcide? SN saidy He lecturer. was the what I lecture I UrGaES e "Look after = oit N EoS medieval the man change. "that was him, could concentrating by AA: Oh, during this on that stipend yes, from the he him, I Middle ran before you "No, [ don*t want to and and study nothing dead we I became studied period the but we can After I pursued Sl want now? teoild wait. I is the him him, Didn't want to history, and history." And hear my friendly, four see sudden and years, he mainly history. of the for and "That medieval very we'll said, then to and lecture. medieval [laughter] medieval from hiisieroem a firstr me. do said, until Ages. "What said, then me, heard He drop Since enftered Y the Foft history, supervised Now, I I weeks he only two departments few So medieval these theNdoor sir." you a me. have of between two to We school the wait When IStellNyountotwail t2UST tell a AN di T which ran here, you i e's want," and of nothing question. combination meeting do. means four years university university. in Even you were supportad Cairo? leaving the family behind. HE: Were IATAYS NioWE you sl married o at time? that saice W Had W nof 15 timeSStofSnar Ry Y and no time to AZTZ Sl ARIYA think EE 1 of We're women. continuing of our interview side one] with Dr. Atiya, and he's of University the at education his about us telling [end Liverpool. AA: AetEuaiisll v T st d i eldi wio E kNN diiviiided spent EC: about pounds I So this at your I sent began digs to stage five the you Svie 5 turaedNout pounds Lol be I living daily my hard work, but For mecnth. per home library amount thirty shillings, Two back whiich® SGIE P ey for bocks, ZIive book collecting, family. began your building? my cost pends, pounds: early tremendous At five library st sterling pounds fifteen S my: S vielain nothing all, at fun No concentrated. fo il flollic a collecting, for the shillings pound and a and money. a I And week. collected in the That's half. How much been more, quite meantime a pound would and that a my ten be? dollars? And that atllthel like You that za2meunt included university that at I gust had breakiast, hadisfisht other participated BeypitemHadiyou my but and now, yes. my dianer, fchiips Yo z=nc anything mid-day. certainly you have would it time that lost all interests. some in political interestiin 16 Now, you indicated activities politics? in AZEZ S ATTYEANE: AA: No more BE iteRmlelsice BN Dokt e o IS activities Yes. My used to = 2 days, A were a great days, I don't know that or anything else in went but fnot years, and miracle at say alone you years, I which old B Franch studied four and Latin years. Thompson, chairman the was College also the of What for deal walking. in I windy all. of a theatre, tol a opera, on and i four the on. second The Intelligence the degree end in crusade of a and as in Dbook, a amount the of for explain. at of a the British of Greek History, Science in editad those Hamilton Academy, and the the zan volume. during Professor British M. A, Nicopclis, companion examiner, Department Letters so theatrse, hapd years and the manuscript of the thesiisi s BelisSlilelan publishasd member to cannot honor's writel certain or happened an external a great four inteliigent Latin My of I thesis a a ‘extremely which was and revolution was cinema the thave ultimately the worked' it. my the study much of work wrote of Spiol 1 Tical my at end make URIversi bys yout here. [ are to to - the doesn't four matter had Vo period walk they Sio Liverpool? nuchs happened people deal; occasionally vary the outside didn't So I to interest walk No, c it 1 vkt i ol sl confined only rainy activities. x political the dean of University of AZT S. ATIYA Leeds. #1 So when cemmistteei thesis. or URhisi You grant goes he is either him with examined a it, neit 'a grant first-class and the the The didn't that situation have the end I the second a to SV hyadidniNE was But first-class honors Charles in Surely. AA: That was They gave Muir Fellowship. me another a two year And was which was was who wasn't first given the overnight were the given highest university because 18 each co a They university. In to and said, ot hiel way 21 I got the Charles was was the Beard was? enough. the Ramsay history one of man. fellowship these my highest which to and me given the Tto who fellowship. of Tor and considered in will candidate, which time to this: was fellowship the came I that class man honors know whatever senate Ph.D. department You fellowships I millionaire For and thesis consider. English that history highest. university university degree, the the the Ph.D. that first to a happened a with Vol r sel f S oust Fellowship. EC: second what the Beard give woman .o uNd e owni [laughter] to university an to e lasswills first-class a the ist on degree for said This Ph.D. sent from cnly me was couldn't the a second the degree was fellowship of they man honors the he thesdises candidates vice-chancellor decided thesis, Bl. AL that galltolisecondiclaisis ) ordinary." my at I the The the became fellowships manuscript repositories Education in began Now, during help from did it of time period Egypt, end I or the am." once four And "Why to about did didineiti of said, going the tickets. Tha you you also continue received to these receive fellowships terminate? the "Here with research. this Nefy W nof i noltsite at me the don't give us publishing te eninaite i NAs i al maititelr years Egypt I to undersecretary you go back headaches and went out talking books." As a of oE Bfact, and said, state of the way? about result, at tha You're research I was and exiled in paradise. myself. try to language I So go was the to being first paid, thing Germany to in wissenschaft. I happened Marburg I addressed on some German documents diolcume nitsi & £ riom EEemendoustiscr ol Orientalistentag that "thets who way to be the I I thought become and where the I and wanted of was proficient of at to improve to in start the German research--the an meeting Orientalis of the discovered in o Garman an LR 2 S Orientali T3S Barcelona, thilipitelenthicenitury--serolls, lisSinArabiic . was 19 the chairman The S heald of the Yof th (D there 04 And Wonderful. ) [laughter] 1 AA: career helped of =y @ a London TJ Bureau The Europe. over all TtTravel to money that used I pounds. hundred a was #1 ct ATIYA [ S. ot AZIZ department ATTYA of #1 oriental don't our you studies prepare etedhim, I'd like get fur it with my time. I the EC: From London AA: Yes, ‘from AA: was this you'd written the I Copitic. And were in England me the Jesus Morgenlandes stay for the German asked I me Ph.D. me a some I favor? time, and write my curriculum, in London one those from Series. research published In in of to exile. publish system office had in also the on book book the that together book two or by years that I also London. M.A. the on role you Christ you my came the book I able once on from Liverpool, and side. the Crusades, to Crusade that was discovered just What you tell Kunde to book digress was to "Why the one that your--? was to us Germany of the documents want Let first is book for yousndo years London, Now, that documents des said, now? my No, and education degree published other AR two me will publications. was to but he the came that, in So through finished EC: to educated wissenschaft." send doi come myself die “WEY11, to Bonn, these Abhandlungen Sadd in & minutTe did your when my 20 in and the Germany on Barcelona. here. Now religion departed religious Nicopolis, published in participate had of in your play religious background in all th S 0 S. = AZTZ activities Egypt? experiences. mother told My me contact with about the AZTZ S, ATTIYA #1 history of sitting by have the Jjust told me crying, that years she ago, it and swas! became Bible, I to to a great that and down now; but with my deal of time when to bed telling me thousands of continued to I celigsion. conviction must I went by place while dusk. at At me took contact villages cry calm forgotten the canal a began deeply-seated did of old. Christ £firsEt a and I of it's my one years tried crucifixion ery . W That the four story, although the That about that in overlooking window the been she crucifixion in After me reading in Was there to read resligious literature. What about your background, AA: That came EE: I AA: As EC: church into services, activity? that in too? my life as we moved into the city. and that became I have to see. we moved seated the conviction accompanied Well into now, me in for Copts the are city, me that rest of minorities my a deeply- pursue. That life. there? Yes. It doesn't posed or any seem difficulties anysoither AN NorduffilculEy, EC: So there like your for having you in been a Copt advancing in between the that it education way. wasn't no. any real contention 24 Copts and AZTZ AA: S. ATIYA #1 the Moslems? The difficulties instance, an I at the in very for for They I all the made me me, would if not had gone to the have to go been able I wouldn't wouldn't have gone for s e et alin I the see. you Copts during The Do to when proved know have always their educated. three that it the came take me, of that differently my have to applied loss in in my is for Helwan higher in would I training graduation; been I stalled positions, there S wh i c'h favor. true against in today? Egypt, Does or the--are was this time? been pursue times I it be history. They the in candidates. observatory to I me has observatory didn't of to fate o E8Nd ifsic eiiSmiiiniaftatont to if and excelled aimiouinti particular this Copts work So what eleven planned England. discriminated throughout are have to whatever. unintentionally =) (@! had sounded technician. because Lord I a among the was the candidates time there know at of first the college. there AA: at But because the other cry opportunity. that For which never position was was you considered. government observatory The Cairo post. took which Helwan was the in clerk a you. outside that employment 1lnteresting--and store Helwan when was when opening very, came as discriminated against. But tenacious. their hard 22 they're aim. as a Sometimes Moslem to Always, They they have get to a AZIZ S. ATIYA #1 certain It position. seems almost minority the AA: a you Have AA: Oh, EC: result a prove Copts high there always one Well, or to No, an IHe2 The same AA: The about or was sort of There their was you Germany. in a lot about Professor you was Paul And my lo! high in the some in you In who England of went asked to speak contributionst that. fire-proof once mcdern There's are now? Copts. Were Coptic you religious sort of thing? thing. to what to Egypt? ministers. individual went Kahle in cabinet kind an when The Germany of order positions. prime were of in discrimination position I of a job. very Jjust thing because highly no political you sort thing. participated, hilSTOEY, the in this individual same for Coptic when as counter-pressure. very there's ministers participate services, AA: two where excel creates excel positions, two they but high were what able fit reached very must level, story, determination. pressure Copt yourself Jewish places their the the the these and certain tTimes tell of persecution, reach Bl some persecution The As in like is who came to cabinet 23 Germany? Christian about the meetings, Copts, toChristianity " and main that was to I thing sent the head me, a across that so on. wanted to the application to of Orientalism in document the way I their I could from show us--a AZIZ S. ATIYA #1 the imprint Hinz) in of who Bonn. But honorary What AA: In EC: Okay year upon Al It Jewish charter came lecturer in broke out. the you had to out They leave to of me the as finest our me I the that I until Germany. Egyptian I in went 24 its Nobody expertise be and impact to help just said in with teaching the 1939 others when the I was exterminated. in London. and a liner--the Germany to I from under up Hitler tended September to Marseilles, was I collaborating had of have all. my Mediterranean my this country. ambassador to rise 1939. have? at needed in September, the did it of there Then around know with did with go go until nazism--how stayed by frontier, Germany period publishing, war Did and me. I submarines EEs this interfere to crossed in influence Germany. the one manuscripts Germany. stayed What upon dozent this? in called was post-graduate that I in 2a is, colleagues Arabic, as it Reich anything Germany there in didn't to und of during you? go and name honorar-professor as accumulation And Third (his the was now, education in professor 1936. the to of work universities EE: me expected and there. minister appointed I scholar the having 1it, on swastika and eagle German the with charter at had to cross Marseilles I with blackout Nile. that same Copenhagen, time? and from I AZTZ 'S. ATIYA #4 Copenhagen to Norway, and then home on a blacked-out shipi AA: We a could very back have interesting to Egypt, tug-of-war man to there of a state, the classic great Miiid dillefiAigies wrote himself. He that ECk Now, was AA: When I EC: So you was in Ghi in my could produced in Germany. a great Here 1is a title They of said, "He demonstrator.”" the had Ages, Crusade found LaMont and he you published which in the a Later pilaicer John in LaMont professor was a article historiograpay. Thus recognition the of crusader JUs tRE h it SEc o 'p in is the iitst was So undersecrszary scholarship. oftis went on ay S S ti s yocu can world America. through to The show sibiookBT SN this returned a Pennsylvania, real the Middle John crusading with was I was highly--I Later day. there him? that Then me. as very But placing between me it. first came scholarship with American wrote--I epoch-making do blolok s whilch about history about blue the al Egypt others present glowingly in days. Germany. the we all in st Medieval say of through die skitha t in appreciated the immortality me tug-of-war Crusades to for shall 1like who those naturally out begin in university What was even the comes professor. paths time and in who has crossed when Cairc. 25 you And were what in did Germany? they do with you? of S. AA: A ATIYA #1 professorship EC: AA: in Egypt, or great deal. War always A where bright prospects this--you're was Now, AA: The ECe So the going was there it and Vogh of populace Bey report spent and that to his the Egypt, Congress year also for I was 1950-51 acted the of percentage this the the that on as as my king for visit first 26 of g ave a royal to the to me the the Arabic titl audience America. Fulbright consultant editing students bright education? higher into summoned majesty the Egypt. in small very a had you Was in then? Egypt university second from in university second Alexandria. of University the of foundation participated you saying now. Egypt in education of field the in very see don't I and slipping is education Egypt in nowadays as education on effect an dire as not education, on effect dire a has there? situation the was what education on effect its have years II War World the did Now but EC: 1952. until there the stayed I and Alexandria, of University the of founding with in chairs foundation of occupants as others eleven participated I 2 to up myself worked Ultimately time. no in and accepted I professor. assoclate as me for appointment by up ended which university, the and education of minister the between tug-of-war I fellow Library h AZIZ to had from of collection AZTZ ST ATIYA #1 simultaneously. AA: Now, this is Yes! King Farouk. meet king the shaky. the by got What of acted for me the Yes. AA: Were thiey went Whialdh into of the to position Jefferson in this was a TtTo abdication. intelligent I to Caffrey his flesh. also young reported in to Sinai I man, him and country. experiences at Sinai. What in the this head to of of of was Wendell the this Foundation sort, Congress in microfilm Phillips. pompous order the for to the type. He start an manuscripts of the first who Catherine. to of value Sinai W Ambassador was discoveries those something been aware well, king's very my think this? was St. you you I in Sinai of appreciated No, A I before learning Library to Monastery of get or him him. involved Man expedition had saw mountain world Phillips Study AA: a let's got Now, I with involved Wendell But experience--about now, you was him very advised 1like wonderful Okay knew He think. was I saw the minutes my whom I and had he day me, I forty the before abdicate, about AR On Caffrey, but AA: Farouk? Jefferson little EG: King before? Sinai this? of Were the before e sitalbil'i shed 24 you one documents that, goled and of at I was the St. Catherine. aware relations of with what the AZIZ S. ATIYA #1 archbishop found Porphyrios very great approve of monastery afraid St. and that the like to the Czar Museum gold. manuscripts. They wouldn't EC: Now, manuscripts AA: Twelve languages. Twelve languages. and order to Arabic his university involved director the him of over the university in and knew my me, and I are are improve and very of possibility expedition. with the Now the monks. in the about get So he their Library of Phillips, in an and Egyptian went o his he the talked director So sale pounds participation Phillips 28 to Alexandria of from the Wendell in Codex thousand So project. the ultimate most. in were its Arabic? wanted They Constantine touchy approve the of the by hundred chances Wendell into in the relations going written university the met five were wouldn't piecemeal Russia for They expedition. Greek of monks story presentation for s nicrofilming manuscripts. acquisition w1%s a the the Phillips permission American else Congress AA: or something in the but the its Wendell s tositart with British sterling wanted Then securing dabbling sand Tischendorff in European and moemalsitery time. Catherine's; any Sinaiticus to whew at the difficulty GhielAineintiicanse expedition at with of the knew called office. me upon They AZIZ S< ATLYA #1 explained try to to me convince inauguration ticket to morning told I happen So and took for We the night a moved by with a siaide’st 53] &0 It ECs for long took Six Sinai to leave knife. did six months. on "Give the me a following approval. nothing there, and I will I'll be America, microfilming. for in the that to went to and We took production area. I of persuaded the monks. Now Sinai before that, could by twinkling inspiring very a and the microfilmers? motor You said, Belgium, surrounded starps was the I night. were wiith " the LIt When at We the and open." start time T am generator first light. I from to a the if go accepting father, eyes came you archbishop's professional time candles monastery. How of to first electric Cairo, here, my "Would about the "Look team expedition have to with with team went electricity the went manuscripts International Egypt. expedition?!" archbishop, day said, the back your and archbishop I came to you of project the Cairo." the there the cut the dark mountains aboeive they we night on both silent the area. take? project months. And you were there, supervising it the of course, whecle time? AA: Absolutely. was Every instrumental minute in of helping 29 the time. to And, export the material I AZIZ S. ATIYA #1 would have that of I foreign chaired affairs came the able I the of to help a group of American to Egypt on a let the position one the book it at in the the for time ministry propaganda them, Meeting and on I the air presidents of universities mission. So I cultural microfilm material, scientific Townhall foreign the happened with of of so a published minister to It meetings was who something Egypt. which calamitous. occupied about to been this with around play to began customs If microfilms. sensitive the of because untouched affairs. had Through consignments access him leave the I was country untouched. EE So so AA: those on, No, countries were only they I of set the the In job fact, for to presented at Caffrey to the University in Now are where Alexandria But given was I said the a of of time was of by copy be a my for for complete set Alexandria. con I And a Jefferson behalf course, my fee Ambassador education Of one would fee University later get what my America, this? should asked Belgium, was of only the a ceremony. copies the I I Alexandria. that and copies that minister of spectator participated, them. microfilms was Cairo. then requested university. doing that available? another Library one of 30 Just in Congress the at Alexandria? National kept the Library in originals of AZZ T SISREAT TA the 1 whole. We microfilmed languages. I discoveries during went there scrolls, of them edited Mount known to before were sunk Thus when Found “those I accumulated the 1067 I should be microfilmed whole, of course of six What hundred would s tape in asked First of the is tape twop the to the our and has done Greek tape the on way their the war, I menastery, I that the up and scrolls photograph manuscripts three them which hundred we out we're us in begins] with of the the manuscripts 31 in significance-- manuscripts to the However, the did over ‘interview explain it the were second 12th, the to major ends, in what all, there say him collection, addition fifty discovered They the placed aiter condition toto. Codices. microfilming just a I at visited them. Canal first only they left that Arabic August Monday, in I I looked who monastery When when were and Suez the made think you [First Phase in I the scrolls monastery. There photographed secrolls. I twelve tremendous instance, I, in made scholars War to pages expedition, in went fifty For scrolls. World photographs bpack. and German having photographed, [+ Q Sinai the Arabic the after down AA before the million time. safekeeping, had EC that years monastery the two Dp. Aziz Afiya his discussing Mount Sinai significance field are of Jjust on role and I've of this scholarship. priceless. to Milan of the Sinaiticus, The Catherine's. for Arabic turned out but almost as With important. scrolls, the study the end. a of In mine new the the be to the Greek manuscripts I condition that the not discovery the historical of of 52 Near my conducted when in the as And as the important those data was exploration Arabic microfilming. of East. their Library the why is Jjust about knew important--historically medieval course a it included be more and except were Now, general. in should Greek, recently microfilm to collection the heard That world. made I expedition, that incomplete, course, of scholars religious Codex the with manuscripts Greek the eager was Congress only SE. throughout importance and fifty; ILtsMilosttolicshintalicachein the So all the Everybody, priceless. of eoft distributed of have we and offisecme discovery religion were All Rescriptus. Syri Ephraemi the edict Alexandrinus, the Vaticanus, the namely Sinaiticus, were his official the of Museum. that issuing survived have more of sections three Bible were one is this So churches. the the copies fifty Those empire. the over Christianity making 312 in British after Great the Constantine by ordered of copies fifty the of one is That the in Sinaiticus Codex the that's world the in manuscripts precious most the of think you When But in probably of hundreds revealed for was not this the library I S. ATIYA made #1 other three languages centuries on world-wide Tribune interview of writing used two write first in a did The text. in It's endless. EEs It's endless, AA: One of volumes of lower Arabic I may covered today prove the is was to subject still to in pumice was of thus Greek time and of oldest several benefiting older with the the was re-use layers be layers paper Arabicus 1in Sinai five script two Herald to writing Codex Syriac, the These o0ld ninth stirred reporter prone The the that know, the to the writing of discovery special were called the Arabic articles. from this work published four these? um-hum. of the sample has Codex’ published--nas 151 Epistles appeared Orientaliium: a The a work. which pupils my vellumestout text new fourth discovery. remove microfilming AA: of sent I layers remember monks layer scholarship you only a Muhammed biblical I this the codices, to prophet and about So Arabic. the parchment--you scarce. stone So me from what five with parchment. Washington on parchment EC: thick from instance, dating interest, to very for palimpsest a Arabicus: Codex in discoveries; in consisting and the Corpus Scriptores of the Acts of an dated Scriptorum Apabici, opportunities 55 just Tomus, ancient 807 and Kufi 9] AZIZ these Christiznorum 40-435. presented This by is this AZTZ S. ATTYA giant KER #1 collection. visited the monastery ESthinlctonce Whaty I abeut monastery Israelis HEs Yet it AA: Yes, was have for d picaleitet go a EEs published whom I Do AR Yes, of the been What's by rendersed the the war some but of art of the Has the who I was approximate to the remained date let instrumental in ministry of never nor me monastery for volumes in of Kurt Princeton fon manuscripts monumental namely 1n has They the visited the project, history outside monastery anything. Several with all. realllliyaialisaicraldplace fact, man at soundings monastery--neither icons. help other monastery expedition the Lsrael? zone. touch the ands way? the done never second photographing profsessor in matter a this any i meonasite Byas st out 'As you Sinai? Egypt touched have They starting start not in excavation, e Ehiel everybody. icons. affected they monastery Mount econflict, directly and anything this been The again, have did. in AA: project, microfilming your finished you After Cairo have and education Weitzmann, to to the University. origin of the monastery? you_recall? yes, of was inhabited the monastery course. by Everything hermits itself from was 34 say is well the established known. third for The century, the area but protection AZTZ ST ATTYA of #1 those hermits by constructed the cathedral commemorate his wife the Caliphate Fatimid monastery really next a church on received was he 1in the Saint Helena Sixth old in Not of bush been the monastery by in Also the the Just at built 1s to I 1is three a have think rock burning I where bush burning is bush, behind the which quarter, by the there the ancient monastery had inside commandments. same century supposed fissure the that the chapel Justinian of the in the Century. you were working there? And so foodstuffs and You the see, headquarters by the rich in it or do provisions in to twenty, oasis so they how they have many are to monks somewhat bring their outside? monastery Cairo. approximately an from on people approximated there, is self-sustaining, send ten commandments. cathedral resided for or to mosque mountain 1s order tenth respected holy Justinian in the So Moses that existence. in small the where in descendent bigger of tabernacle the a And monastery Then highly top area the received but When the 525. cathedral. is the photographed still the in the built that At of Theodora. to place religions. AA: Justinian That has main Greece, the and 90 its representative headquarters rich monks the people in Sinai monks in is shared provided Egypt. whose main They numbers with the AZIZ S. ATIYA =1 Q But = = the There monastery there the is rock, is no a little and something green Oh fresh almonds them. agriculture there garden which has to as created some eat, from on fruit and those we such. which they trees. We used to built from hungered go and eat for the trees. yes. The green that almonds from the they have what garden bone-house bury where their a chapel leading where a monk receive the mountain in bones, the find him name steps. met used ossuary mountain forever. the at entrance dressed up 36 When and you sitting the road he to at place and mountain, midway could monks go them listened he where stack On holy death, vestments completely sit and the They to pilgrims up monks. used the wished or a the he ossuary is place say of there Stephanos up middle and also. certain his them bones a to After dead they're skulls of the the of until the in call bones going At and their the pilgrims built all with the ecclesiastical guard dig by forever. his they of He the period top Stephanos they a the confessions. road for Then of trees, stack outside to thousands they monks disintegrated. in offers livelihood their for depended who bedouins Muslim what #1 up to the their guard <this collected of is that the chapel supposed Sinai, =211 you entrance to will of AZIZ S. ATIYA that ITCR chapel. Do you were recall Not KRG What very many, about so on? Oh, many monks were living there not very many, about fifteen its height, when you were dozen lab you done is all the this number right, many twenty. recording then, and developing We up I with had some from the we were saved. So your earlier so on AA: Oh yes, BC: Now, somewhere When did the time. character, and we had microfilm to had the time all and down I the fell which the Saint Catherine activities really bore fruit yes. That was we've all here take was of highlight got to this 37 busy our We had at night, all filled monks. over gave But us. manuscripts and Sinai? Mount get the watching the at Porphyrios t©To collecting at Sea manuscripts to quite trucks Red work had Peninsula. Archbishop headquarters the We three the valuable that thing. Sinai into there. ensure whole 2 monastery. right the extremely you--from all the examples Once main a process illuminations me time, outside the process adventures. at international not going people stationed expedition. and been dozen process Jjust disposal a of van could could an have about people special We would during or manuscripts? we So at What these A how there? AA: AA: #1 of your my life. family introduced. schedule--when did you AZTZ S. ATIYA #1 finally AA: Oh, find a that'!'s after my B@: From Mount AA: No. B After AA: From wife later. return you in with came in the her from I at and in took another accident. Leeds Iskander Pasha take to the lady?" He said, is she?" uncle." I the EE: And this A We're ther EC: And AR Very to be sought "The said, I a you back never saw her children back. was of please I I Habib we of introduce Jjust for health, mine, when him, "Who asked Bey there saved of said, home understand was friend to studying So minister injection. cousin." I ours. encounter who daughter way followed the happened my their visiting an on going our "My "Could was She "Your cousin? Messiha, me?" And my that beginning. was on that was came I were and lady Who had Germany. visiting boat young is wife war. and another, Naguib the were I from time of the one came the who missed a not--the Germany? after mother they Dr. her? Egypt. outbreak Paris that It's to Marseilles after marry Sinai? Germany, be and was when? talking of 31st what's about July Lola's eminent What year 1940-41. of family family, are We we talking were about ultimately now? married '41. background? very 38 eminent family, one of the AZTZ S. ATIYA best #1 families Copts; I am EC: She's also AA: Oh yes, eimya in Egypt. They the commoner. Coptic then, yes. Her a are the Coptic cousin of the background. was Smitniein tham aing e Hielr aristocrats the minister i asth e'niwiaisSE of Al health, vie oy a gineia b personality. E€: What AA: He was of the was his a profession? very highly placed man in the administration country. Selishediidnitt gol withs youh to Sinai .. Shewhad to sTay behind. Oh no, She she went went with several you! So on all these projects AA: On all these projects. EC: Okay now, I times. she's worked very closely with you then? believe you said you finally left Egypt in 9525 AA: In 1952 BE? At Alexandria. At Alexandria the I decided retiring for age. stipulation that University of microfilms, and that in a to public retire the cause It's the from very Library Alexandria they did ceremony 39 the of curious. You Congress a complete which And university. retirement of that. in my Egyptian after know ahead I would of made a give the set of the they had done Ambassador Caffrey and AZTZN S TARTYAY 741 Alexandria. council After where whom I ceremony, I someone by summoned was the that files--apparently person related to prioposalistothelifacul ty disciplinary EE: Council AAE Yeis, or was thimmgsbyaly table to WBroither, and 'a an tothe try I me take lis S there to talk honorary for doing the minister Stopuit: like loads of made a ‘mesbietoret a of you: these whoRmightaprefer unwilling the to to agound come: the for 'Let !SI a two retire. with I answer simply us for with in Professor 'a' services propesal Good bye." after direcitly letter years' boekt his running wenti was, disgraceful give alone. dean government 40 My T altbooit,antoldl deeds with "stay you." forthl talking request which 2 Hiowingtusisiitting recognition with said, " ogreats You're great I allillsthielse' saying, in purpese?® S doing Jor that? degree just a what with brain education with privilege was 'a council of neith Instead Saying,aliielcer a "Fer part university,' left coupled board. She S saiid S e r ungrateful. Atiya with faculty expedition--and counc il oue sellfands head out a board? thiis® your attended council. higeitherZ!" S And the the <tTo imported had came council faculty a participated, education of minister the of to €o And me, the resignation, leave from office, offered higher officials explained to that these fools him that aren't I AZTLZ S\s TATTYA #1 He procured years two EE: How AA: I EE Fifty-four. HE old were must you have So I to finish was at been a my you Yes, under this man me. time? again, literary like for fifty-four. free Would vacation and ministers of council the to went grateful." me I sat projects. to what and in my America library came in hoping my way. proceed? circumstances did this happen? How did in one they--"? AVAS: I was asked of these of the the of pleasant to be our first to better can "My asked Academy thel street, come a is to the come they and And He say, tell came me over 41 to the front nice, am but you 'Yes,' what and NS don't and it is he at and head of come all gave and you by the studies. The sofSPrinceton, Wsanid S row, invite created Islamic Nl one Michigan, and post in tall, I of Cairo a for proposition, and on and English Cameron. Hitti second®ene .Y in me--a in America Philip Sinai, University professor walsh giving George to on sitting came me deal was man at of home decide." I name studies attractive the which visiting bel great lecture Neandidates very in the Odegaard a Cairo, man, Medieval apel in oriental Dean lecture lectures halls end the to p s and ER st invite you gl people running. about me and all You we the AZLZ 'S¢ ATTYA #1 particulars, which if like Lola for would one years year to and that By then AA: We brought you America had two them after the the microfilms, and in first fellowship was the ‘first for the Library got the letter to yes turned Washington. Do elected me she said, for a That to she out would. to be We came thirty-one Denver we to the are the two go to 1in I West to 42 from was She of must go with Now at stopped so at too!" their as fact, After at us to a go I to strange fact they the letter, And we went grandmother. and lecturing Colorado happened I showed fellow possible. Berkeley the when I Fulbright as lot consultant the looked the Egypt. library, inviting spite Washington. It my Washington, lectur= lectures. as of the universities I expedition in I matter children many and of to organize program a previously to threw They're '50-'51. universities for As going, of they fellow. as University Congress director to came Sinai Egypt, "Look. year the the of from hesitant at of We Fulbright want you the time. Congress. said, you? meantime, the leaving in this Fulbright "If way eastern in of lecture the the was as year was my I did Library from and country?" us Fulbright Lola and year conclusion to on said children, with consultant had She now. EC: it go. asked I attractive. extremely were that I I was Stanford in and the at Arthur AZTZ S. ATIYA #1 Beeley, head Washington Lamb. So Denver he the his her way don't fortasimilar to you me decision was you heard that West. tell him It's by phone made to studies at executive, say the lecture. contacted the Fulbright heard "Why They international with on said, of to on He at Jjumped stop in Lake at and City Consequently, acceptad briefly is her Salt way.! 1in Elizabeth Atiya stop I Dr. was Professor his and Utah right at to away Salt and Lake Gistyie Had AA: I had, in ever but that of was Salt for me City? like Siberia for Lake City. a man living Europe. EC: Surely. AA: So ultimately lecture like about Philip we lecture. Olpin, came Mount Others invited music building EE: Union building. AA: Union me to was That afterwards life is of myself. at is miracles. Things took lunch always 43 I that me to the %ime the-- the beginning miracle. never tried happen by that illustrated President regents of my people about meet the gave and details with another I manuscripts remember was happened the recollect still What full and Beeley which building. Salt still Afterwards who to Sinai Sturges presentation. for Lake in <the everything. You know my anything direct miracle. Later #1 R Surely. AA: Later we many went hers that wherever a as the was a to dean trial you who Atiya, not the me askednnimsabout De. WAt So then friend who was at Chapel Hill children and would to mine like stay to at American Zealand. stop our He in va.s we in Cairo home. friend wants I So coming to stay 44 of whers i% council as to tell Egypt he me, through went to see that from a he a year us. So he meet Egypt. they One religious spend when to went to saying to came This LElecitursedatadolzens s of retired me find Atiya. Everywhere professor to to Council know in Khalafallahn about America a as So stunned he come lectures disciplinary Egypt?" coming were where limousine an wrote was Afterwards, through universities. a Grand will when Faculty before people our that asked the the back. come he travel who gave extent was services. that and fellow, he Atiya of West chaired put my know to went, to for the Fulbright he proposed "Do on because never We'll area? institutions came was Bryce--everything, remote this to Yellowstone, see country, to decided we lecture, that giving Zion, result SO on? the down Canyon, back go after on and up I came Utah couple on of his w India in invited down he him, a philosophay and we day days them from the "I have said, his i @ on--shall 2 ATTYA . S, 0 * AZTZ way in to New Cairo, AZIZ S. ATIYA #1 but he knows no Rim to you?" I all our don't one want limousine Is that your AA: We “had 'contact companion: talked, took who ECs had around side AtiyaiyNand AA: Ray Olpin So we had I somewhere. him to New Zealand. all was lecture to our a of How We them from said the of He was days my you and we staying at during as to are flabbergasted, which I a good man interview with Dr. Lake City. our "hilssNcontact in him very, on very the end of George Michigan. with Dr. "A. Egypt. was 45 i Olpin? way. days. of dinner, to out the together. until help I Salt for forgotten for one] him put to whatever, home That invitation wus™ time had in two visited we of side telling that anything. 1951."So was couple lunch tape think I reason of good We no of he a a comes of couple [end two “he'!s* a who introduce do of want in out for for us when Pyramids. took Hotel invited is for We President first [laughter] sheltered I [laughter] with get if but And Olpin? Utah Olpin?" him This in mind least. them, contact "Arnold, Semiramis the Americans." first you irrespective from President BE? Do in friends love but President "Not anything we Cairo. said, American because the in We a good and it. <took camel him or time we Cameron the something together. saw Forget to him about came off it for We to and the AZTZ 'S¢ ATIYA #1 EC: Michigan? AA: And we from came New the way have we idea a he He leave. At the professorship Luce me for offer came become working at I me to not for least it flying So took person So Patten Crusades. who of the we world of was from three "Stay of Indiana lecturer commuted air. the airport, year which volumes They but because I had a me my had working us we in came ready to visiting at Columbia me had also a to Henry elected A third invited to year on very good driver back home. the Patten to the triple-headed in glad He They was of brought transpired 46 elected the later was Ages where I us appointment. Foundation by up very our Christianity. combined library see, as Christianity. World a had my were Middle Seminary double-headed, a said, We followed end professcorship that. we--ne You and him. and He Columbia. Union of know. year to vision. in professor And that tremendous So me k=ep followed didn't to by to us called historian, year." I to he realization. the one open of wrote wanted so man that 1its for W. a I writing impressed He and kept and was were Utah, head Columbia medieval we followed year. he living. was towards Olpin hand, Somehow in his Dr. own course, And Michigan. for Of in quietly his were friends Michigan. an in letters. friendship. to Michigan. Zealand exchanged and to the I was [laughter] publication lectures of were AZIZ S. ATIYA #1 were paid time of Histriography translated title into of German by Xreuzfahrer hard back and also the same title of the Bibliography. und both was East-West in order books and first out with of Relations two into and two have I Crusade later under print translated to was was University Kaufleute paperback, volume The Hamburg publish Culture, and Commerce, Crusade, written: ever popular most the be to proved which books to result The stipend. the of part remaining the get manuscript the cede to had I So [laughter]. them to manuscript the ceding the at percent fifty and percent, fifty only lectures my But days. any days, these get To easy not 1is lecture a dollars thousand A funded. heavily very the editions, now. Later Arabic under soon gone out of print. EC: Who published AA: Indiana University Press had an were published paperback of the spite all EC: those? And Press. edition for edition. the because you publication fact they its at They publications of of After that were were able of these? own. leas®t turned that I I was them, After six out had that ‘times, to be the hitherto reticent too elementary to collect 47 Oxford to in a University those books including most a popular accomplished in publish at them sense. royalties from the AZTZ S. ATIYA AA: Oh yes, EEs Good. # yes. = Q block At given the to same time this--were AA: No, no, to go EC: I AA: After you no. by Indiana. you were on by your covered I back another me didn't to Egypt, dollars thousand five my had I all of most and Royalties, move. vacation in Egypt, 1is vacation? You there over is see, a every time telephone I'm call, ready "Stay for year." see. Columbia year to came replace oriental studies. the history was hard of year. The He reject the was Philip one the II the Oppenheimer, invented Yes, Oppenheimer who EE: Did you man a in most After Oh yes, EC: He was of my famous people in world and it I elected was for over by bomb and another Robert ended Nagasaki. and devised by the the name bomb. atomic of Ernst yes. one of Study atomic another school that there? AA: for the the presided the me physicist. AA: know the Advanced was Hiroshima at Hitti throughout for Institution who of offer. Institute Oppenheimer, War great Orientalism of to fellow World the Princeton--wanted professors 48 at Berkeley. Kantorovicz AZIZ S. ATIYA AA: Really? the Institute uneasy about extending of education for case my supported who those was he fact, of matter a As time. my at was He of one #1 fellowship. EC: Great. AA: At the our time stay. an old a 1s right in his he EC: And so as have a set discard He be "You do a minister of I a You have what you fellow schedule me by free said, and with what and now. research "You he not have as have facilities know, called soon You was Oppenheimer met as who you and went me, man I a as the signed house you at want, like." there of He Egypt, So signed are mine. for presented 1 to bit colleague it." can Nothing the to disposal. you little honor book" but a tremendous said, your and office. "golden it felt telephoned I friend this the we at the lectures or Institute, anything you didn't else? whatsoever. Wonderful. I could play around was disastrous. was across Einstein. Eastern write Henry the if I worked way from During Luce the basis Professor of wanted t©o, eighteen the that Christianity, on I which my of 49 I a finished lectures what day. previously Harper's World do hours office year but at my had I My Christianity. office occupied by History of invited Union liked me to Seminary as So three AZIZ S. ATIYA #1 Christianity Eastern and transilated into in edition completely evaporated .o 1 = (R = were you ol S Dl thie but Ray me pursued then in invited me York, fourteen thousand From History" eminent by have captivated the were though annual Mot And, and to c ourseyEtmin of the course, my with three 50 own I publisher of title the people message different of It was message people many that putting called is antArab oits who peace, an "A of that to stadium. The university. somebody me speech. my 1in see gave I old imagination to commencement the the in come to came He the st had He Olpin. difficulty had rostrum thunderstruck religions he Polish wyear that--which the circulated Arab SR But Egyptian. the was and here the the by Esieiclond give to of around Polish However, day. Princeton. remember to that sent a by told one Dame eventually was It iinigs probably seems Notre year? speech--you published by one He Message editions Nubia in everywhere. audience by royalty. respectable ni New in me England volume handsome Princeton who Institute, a at wieaimsl Ewio see a with together And is in was Christian excavating which published I and Polish, scholar copy of Kraus-Thompson. University a History American later two with Methuens first was The year. that in blues the of out came books an maSa n ¢ iten€ objected had the communities three living AZTZ NSo ARTYA #4 together in President Olpin He me gave that Then Michigan. proefessorship. Princeton. At country commencement invited of philosophy 'andh time were the people Defense universities the centers polycultural and to sEhat nchance establishment of intercultural he came to Princeton offier me in suls at the ‘the a cannot few stay in more and they English." allivousel for my fine with me then said, wife me." to andahisitorys his country in them They "Why isagd, and By that of visiting theichildren 51 Middle East thought for Elva ‘establishing I said, indefinitely. and back you children. way, gave I get home to come during to to 'such an in but stay Egypt ‘the of us dec i dern to summer nor with N tol want professorship went Olpin children stay they the in American and If Study cannot live neither And "Sir, the he the institute. wife, Utah. the which Advanced good of in grant ithaitl st neit e forne my the for become don't a In while Olpin studies America take i fie 2T It's invited this belong. He of University years disoriented where company \the get 1in visiting Act establish Institute opplertunity institutionin I the to was thinking institutes. woulkd e sedizel I history Education opportunity an while summer a for me he the about speech Princeton. in personally me visiting kept that after Well, etc. =tc., East, Middle the come, when he philosophy university AZIZ Sie ARTYA #1 experimental eESa school and isojourn®in attended course Orson Spencer Hall. AA: Crson Spencer Hall. area scenic to thinking The of Y¥esil And my and place in said, we York said department to go to I to and we were me: "Do She I you he well us around and must all the have in school to have been the area. system. "Salt 1like back had the tickets A Studies place tickets in He said, for my "All my the a a one old." We the Irom having his turned only City." in Young, 1s ship. I never quarter Princeton, telsphone Cuyler by get after to Utah. she 1is to Lake went They board, happened 1in home there and take Egypt." back know, said, That summer on would that the went I Egypt. Oriental I resting where = say me mind, "a ' thrilling Lola Utah and wanted back had back. in of Lake, the it?" to his Salt took with vus® come back "Gentlemen, in he enchanted world spent summer Great a the-- interested to is to University they the in them when the that experience idelivered get and really, travel During I the School? wife "What planned Room Siof day round that were dSandiialll one Tanner Somehow Training Finally the something, children Stewart while Timpanogos, sites. elected Lake =] the family Salt in EC: the to New pocket to Princeton head of the sabbatical and year. pocket, right, and go I said, I back have to AV S. ATIYA # you back back to Princeton, and from Institute for invitations decision and He Utah said, happy about of them it, an and gave him EE s This is AA: At the institute. to me saying to When The that back story of the Olpin that the rested with the to a that Utah, the airport telephone heard So the call there they were following 1is very day I telephone. one year following I the me me to accepted. by your give children going acceptance follow the Lola take and to Dr. offer You Jjumped the told generous night I and I right. at morning." possibility his "All it Study, followed. accept deliberate Tomorrow a to to family. Advanced Princeton me brought They Americé." to bring We'll Egypt. was at the day institute? he rang appointed. the When telephone would I be Eastern or coming? B Appointed AA: Full e And as full professor with professor with the tenure, assignment international studies? AA: Intercultural studies. e That's AT how we landed terminate it here you came here and this. How does this Very, very well of and the history? everything. to So in then develop that's how Utah. Well tomorrow founding sound? indeed. 55 of a Middle we landed good. in Why let's pick the center Utah. don't up and we when all AZIZ S. EC: Well, of ATIYA I tape #1 think we've very done here. AA: Excellent. EC: Very fine. 54 well. We've got tTwo hours AZTZ Salt = L. CATTYA Lake An Everett S City, Utah interview verett Cooley Ne- L. by Cooley Oral 5508 August History &S5 13, 1985 Marriott Library University of Utah Salt Lake City, Utah Project Abushady and Collecting Sitaitus Support Ph.D. '0f From Discovery CoptichRel Coptic Savegh of L.D.S. . < . Encyclopedia . . . . . . . 5 W . . Community. Importance ioiontaci Library. Collections. Graduates. < @ Utah. Papyr 9 Library. Center. 09 Notable to Codloection. of . fortMid-FEast Restoring VMarptinlievey Importance Scholars Fayez & « to CECECEN Project. Mormon e N Pupechase « N Eminent « University. =N S -t i [} P';J Bringing « at Y Beginnings. Studies ) O Modest Intercultural CONTENTS 1) Starting OF . Church. N TABLE AND THIS IS A CONTINUATION 13, 1985, AUGUST IS TUESDAY, TODAY OF OUR INTERVIEW WITH PROFESSOR AZIZ S. ATIYA. THIS IS TAPE IS PART OF THE COOLEY ORAL HISTORY #2 AND THIS INTERVIEW #3, PROGRAM. WE'RE RECORDING IN THE ECCLES ROOM OF THE MARRIOTT LIBRARY. EC: Dr. Atiya, telling [0} at me the esire of we concluded Dr. A. for of you having become involved center SConld what some walsi Sthe! the that Well, there was a time, to use Act. ‘grants ne for therewilth ain inaugurate it a Study Princeton the fofit a that the side of timellcensuming. head in the this the should the floreihe falsiked® the National eager Tto 'idea to stact ‘was to East, commissiocned came devote There was at Middle I is What cliainit sigl f oir So which the His person business, run was pivotal really and 1t the alliNsEE 1w dil eis when to sthis as oeorder on his Utah country for leocality. and up? Olpin the would Mulder. to in were her=? 'program budget you intercultural coming allocated were of bitidabeut President as an your tendency studies. I of you when University concentration me these in going were in with condition who you SRt s rieuilttur sel=acted to pursuing behind ¢this interview littile were general Education poly-cultures director you last founding were which e skca biltids b academic the funds semething to “concept you secause come ideas original Seeurela Olpin youltelliftusitas of Defense our Advanced in to William Ray Institute outlined AA: as here myself I mace to the tremendous me administration. tol and select I knew a only AZIZ S. ATIYA #2 IHE:S How did you AA: Oh, he was Leciture | in AA: Oh, yes. And he know my very averywhere, of companion So and the them teaching I of I EE: the whole Let me the in for was amount very him as that to the be so or on and two important I initial until post in Hyderabad. administration and Provo, man to had command and work be so forth. To Mulder as the would pursued Bill that tThe who to India At to program, taught methodology year at agreeable of And me director. side the a the was part carry We depended main office appropriation It for in this was director time I direction felt of on of your the responsibility program, or was this and his also tc left to else? the AA: came program. no. it him courses. over to So as studies funding EEs I accompanied subjects another here, with a well ask someone found the new take the No, as American could find of myself appointed He academic the devoted helpful. appointed establishment teach I Olpin all when 19541, was with. him? was primarily federal of was the money, on President in Washington Olpin for relation appropriation, and minimal. federal I money suppose university 2 money that came then? supplemented as matching by a certain funds. We S, ATIYA #2 East in SRSt front el of me. didille consideration, periphery. I thought B a'sit & thats with were twenty-three countries important America. act and began and we must modern Then Greek. assistants. allis I on In the on. in the flame We started ourselves up remember for that this lands, see seeds that into this a we had a I came The area community and in 1951 4 other study fertile is to and selesct in didn't big names which But one soil ready to yaato professors. We system opportunities which Turkish Hebrew humbly, center. missionary was We assistants way. studentbody cultures, defense by assistant very here very uparalsituden tbiod and beginning students other segment appointments had community. offered had it <The country. supplemented modestly, we a when church thought big the the or on are under demonstrators into essential, They of revolutionary very until tremendous in with was we Swe s bui segments two periphery professors a dealing Arzbic, with Jjust which interests every began appointing proceeded into me on or Arabic. are the three segment speak diisiciipitiinest unit il justify We serve were S tolsbeltaiken: Arabic, We concentration Persian. hald another These for there Middle whole the of map the had I see, You magnificent. and worked was really have thing the go for =o stru tc other so growing that k L.D.S. languages; for so and we of Jjump O AZTZ sort I my of AZTZ S. ATIYA #2 thing. Did AA: that prove true? foreign countries, continue their Completely. spoke time the I had directorship BE: well When as I were for open And And were a spoke been S cihololit0 French eager we passage the center, of I all Middle to opened the there with study the could me, wide, when count who Arabic, door years, as I at departments Eastern were Jewish meet think to very left least and subjects; a all language some professors origin, some I on suspect resistance? campus, none Was with there any so. these in We didn't extraneous Hebrew, eminent we any faculty began opposition. members. with the We We late had Louis day. own his in man meet Zionist. a tremendous friendly occasionally far to had you? instance Zucker, back who studies. you to don't When from background, Did who were studying area opposition No, of arrived Arabic. AA: come students you Jewish they who with denominations as did Persian. on, thousand missionaries students and and went those studies®? German, Turkish, Did as Zionist. and as academia We cooperative. may is be clashed We expected, concerned, 5 we had but at times, our on but we tug-of-war the whole collaborated as very AZEZ ST ATTYA 72 He several people started with I Naturally I my program. and came faculty, Von once people, good enough to that I it devised and taking into started elements to problem in start from zero. when in to the teaching came I We've in, philosophy of which was last, the mending point the at which languages, 6 got to subject utterly situation I the young the the my the about stage when went away good mature program with was as the situation of studies to East. Middle start with the philosophers and wrong. and the to result The Eastern Middle years. not beginning consideration had have are who found I of Instead anything the succeeded back know the with function. not Now elements. basic teaching are we to got We've Now down. do who people I upside country, this people, came and away I but butter a such went I when and bread years. appointed Cannon, Byron and Sievers for fifty when people younger a later a at instance, For had we back handle elements EC some built had difficulties faced up to last the for field this 1in experience build happened just I man. mature a be to have You I experience have to have you that like program to see, You elements. these and began, we how is this So Hebrew. in have we course of Now Hebrew. for man initial my was Hebrew. teaching in helpful quite was Zucker and nicely, left Of the course returning the started. Turkish, Arabic, Persian-- AZTZ S. AA: Hebrew. KEC: --Hebrew. AA: ATTYA #2 the department No, we were broker the which history science Did was AU an the They the registered in Science. And the course They the the were had their had Languages. so a We Political on. East center or departments? East two were own was We History. Middle There of Middle separate there question. monolithic. of in center departments. Department through Of the The Department register registration this the Political students center. through through through departments. of independent worked through the languages? not languages had BEC: of within or center the within taught were These Center policies centers in in view that departments the were within the Harvard was center. And AA: they And could they like could that. Princeton EC: grant It through the center as other I of Languages to At what Atal later a degree center we system whichh was myself begin did pedint The you I is standing a duali by itself; the beginning is The existence center into on. at although move 7 so worked affiliated with, had and that preferred program. departments. point a But a degree? grant had too. a the to I am history work of the through the the a to Department historian. department? appoeintment. OFf course AZIZ S. ATIYA you know in the #2 what happened university Fletcher. They professor, the st but teaching il is Nevertheless, AA: Oh yes, yes, I'm any member center, me in my on the or office. university. the position, own research The situation time. My center. getting such ambassador Now Yes, he would a In to my of the come series of me wanted to pin pleasant me in in' the “university. to many students to as a My 8 they So I since going get bigz I I want to director of with Jchn be see I am appointment to to conduct to you associated I Badoe Egypt. a series of Judge Mustapha of with succeeded S. my later. passage in got to to the names ccme all useful talk instance, for to although may my to improved States lectures. the them. Ambassador what, to still. and when opportunity for United here see an to or wherever center try students department, I'm time, names a go which was James extraordinary Usually meantime gave the of any very all me. active the in career distinguished was faculty of am about In the don't that idea to consult I my me they which open of I because consultant head periphery, the the to any in limited. yes. talk make position a come stage presidency assumed life, you're who to the I “have''a later to presume for faculty the TGS I extremely BE: much during because university wayLs a decided not distinction, to at who at was lectures®? Fadel, AZTZ Sy ARTYA #2 the head The Shari'ah, basic of Egyptian which subject BSrem I University in John Glubb I was I got who was very of author. in his books quoting complimentary. Furlonge who was are me We in one got ambassador of the we have King o NJordany built 3ir Hussein. on a shelves. books, Ambassador He He'ls our his to an like of Britain Gibb you people of a American gave that there and SHEsETL « from that important kingdomt law, Hamilton from man advisor Sthe Sir library the His got gotisPhildp the very Islamic discipline Zuraya East some “thearmys pride I I He's Middle on important studies. Beirut. our eminent take very lecture Constantine Pasha busiE S up very our got of nothing. a to landuw@xford. Princeton. from is in (Hamvard evaluation Jjustice Sir which Jeffrey numerous Arab countries. Oh AA: So yes. we got these people who give cannot build younger people. concern. mapped care EEie up It's out of. and big the a can stand As you see for the center great Now of course science. center the The people The on center history Everything operating are the stature. You bread study transitional 9 big international institution organized. this these an established. Political we people; iIs of an butter ongoiz languages section is and is o EE~ is taken established so period. today, is it pretty much ATIYA as you #2 AA: It's an what I = «Q a But We you this area. to faill =1 Q the keep toh teaching you AA: elementary of Now, did WeEe A ttracting ) these Yes, have full assisting forefront with Dr. just wou're that do) just an academic academician, ansordinarys of the Olpin's you If for institution university names28 Wa sER e you have subjects. level support You names. big you but relations. for world the around shopping a international with diplomat a in man of an essentially are You position. the and position not is that like center a of the see, You bait. a as mountains %0 them terrain the of beauty the use I people attracting keep I names These relations. and mine, of friends all be international have to have wera must you that these get to order In names. these have don't charge is revealed? just have It now in coming names these have don't you that. institution. second-rate good these organization, teaching butter and bread a call may in harm no is There concern. ongoing with about? talked just you've that disciplines beginning, the in it conceived 0ilipinl when you out s iinth (D S. to--? vision I could do as much as Bt AZTIZ wanted. And AA: funding Funding was was no no problem problem to because 10 people? draw I succeeded in getting AZIZ S. ATIYA funds EE So #2 outside the order the basic to do Nesysne, no. EC: You to AA: Supplementary had where funding the AA: National sort was of supplement they costly. We funding for we have not thing Education ample that or you Act. sufficient were doing? people by in that. funding, are; Defense getting are had at to the have accommodating these end of funding them. I the world. for their really air from It's very travel worked very and hard Now, when these people lectures? One AA: Series lectures, EC: And of did people AASe you mainly not a class I had Oh AA: That or from these servant the a attended the the We the series--now 1in a series of classes. populace were a classes. this row like Jim or were the students? teaching community, irst personalities gave student general mostly for they classes? studentbody. women dignified came seminars, community old KC: the public the of draw attending No, of lecture, () £ Q SEERINES is faculty, although I several remember interesting--a in my class, Clayton's at one series including mother. yes. type of thing. the greatest surgeons the classes. We Also always in Donnette his time, welcomed 45 Hatch, and them, wife others but of one came mainly of into who we AZTZ S, ATIYA his #2 bewilderment books and when each Tremendous of size. shaking in I you only give me gave didn't his thousand dollars book And market in then thefothericeniters They hadn't and got what I research start accepting ten Ph.D. graduate me and line. You're Middle East." now, Ph.D. Well, but in Ph.D.s. "This is I time every must I stone is all our I much. by time basis’ I posed 19 some the Cairo library, an have students an is problems the called draw the to the happening average for to average that to the able, History what for of of year. have Of when was extent of You practically of available having the know thousand around the research don't a thet of Depagtment too at here. year--to far had up twenty knowledge went That "You your materials ended the [laughter] my I said, "stillletharsic. established every taking students this song" s I in So you? three shopping old foundation supervisor said, the that students my him owe thousand." istillndormant, "forras the out saw we all of least. I I for on at do twenty based went all program putting of PiEe calls after I spend the collecting. practically might was much cheque from iere started a crates Olpin, dollars." to is forty meter "How thousand Here had President time Egypt. I cubic thinking, enough did a poor remaining I back, is twenty dollars. what came them shoes, change course I the ten AZTZ S. ATIYA #2 library of as books, Arabic. AA: The well, having the solution was appointing Sheets subject. the Marian exile in She was pigeon EC: What the AA: e Yes, end, ECi the you yes. We PL used it grew Now this books Even out of for in alils print but very well course of them was wife used was my wife assistants of the <to an had working library. hundreds a together. was the in it cataloguing over program? in Their from my operation. books from to full only and this and in place at recent you could side 14 one] consequently greater. PL publication, 4807 things:. sortshiol of of correct? Egypt, [end was capacity, greater books, Now center? the accumulation N usediitivbor exile, My turn 480 founded issued cataloguing of the had from her. I who day. the is and but interest with and to of librarian, deep worked accelerate used every about recently AA: we backlog time to a kind we One tremendous; students the hard cataloguing Arabic and helpful, holes. was Ph.D. very volume intelligent exiled a because in very no was was very very, output It paradise very, work many East. a language Sheets this there? knows the of trained solution who for Middle our people was perception In no acquisition What Marian to your get them-- those AZTZE S ATLYA E€k This #2 is side Atiya about about the 2 of tape the 3 and Middle Middle East we're East talking Center library to and that he Professor specifically was instrumental Enwbhuitliding. AA: Naturally, keep the growing very library all strong, to around I I and shop by Robert succeeded in contents were material Middle thought and for securing a old had known of let KEe So AA: No. Arabist. certain us These collection Combe his were were of masters the I texts, these Littmann, 5 have it I was whose to able King I of the We rate general obtain Swiss the scholar Farouk and in production the prevailed the Arabic were not purchases? We had also famous at first to from the Here, strongest the a be look collecting. comprised collaborated and not to been of Combe, of with collection had relating tutor purchases. Enno years Etienne collection gifts, he to started ahead We Turcological forty has collections. collection of well, should East. where It moving special though and important have these been very keep Middle Afterwards, of organism. acquisitions the College collection who to Istanbul Orientalist note started for Turkish, East. We the elsewhere many living our in in a had exploring McLachlin-Reed of we purchases started head time. but acquisitions. limited the is upon a him well <o field. portions German of the Semitist. AZTZe S ATTYA #2 University = Q the Now collection, Levey mine 1in the to America, and great the of one Utah. to gift the was of Library the to that niwere ple c htifilid deflecting in succeeded I But Congress. of N s books: his ‘of @it "as considering emigrated He InS et h e AN SEFAT G o it hG S it QR Alexandria. of of friend great a colleague former a also and mine Abushady, Zaki Ahmad was poet, Egyptian modern famous the collection. Abushady the securing 1in succeeded I instance, For occasionally. collections special donated get not did we that mean not does This ones? am Yes, I like my give to collection the Congress. of Library the to Utah and to us will bear bookplate immortalized Library of a not be his He will by us. Congress." which onlfy ocean that book that is every not EaNhEisSSb certain it on His name. o 16 to it. result served collection with a As I associated name his with tag into sink that carrying collicic tilon’, P rno b manuscripts, will guarantee I it A will name father's your It your give to going not You're "Stop! cried, Congress, of Library the to be she Give given us who be will name in came the whole the oo kisibutNallisio people and permanence. in immortalized gave his that negotiation starting of point the on was daughter oldest children discovered accidentally I When own. Abushady's know I that. to coming Fot his here AZIZ S. ATIYA #2 from far away Seme. efwhisi manuscripts most recent acquisition collection. to I the library. him lecture edit was some here; tare of also Fayez his still a was great one the his wind up complete Bast, by complete. all the Here it hunting for couldn't pay mention Jjust Smith. here, Lola and 1is. It example Smith the was Mrs. and I. of the to see mean connected 1f il absolutely I wasn't university like Corinna are, and Smith. We 1is still a had I a us see us in <the in in growing Egypt. this residues very concern newsletter approached any died. to Center with and he the went with Research to Linden as they a Near painted Egypt. she able who Jjournal to were should with cooperated a ha'd artist American which whio modern the I I It's that that participated Badoe fellowships not Linden She the treasures. fractures know of had that collection. knew an We for I people everything, does tremendous publishes Smith cuttings, Sayegh mine. collection. The that iisSswitte whole I of big politics This organization supervises Linden the paper Ambassador important now. on one to establishment She for with happened the treasures. Linden monuments We getting collection with for Fayez getting friend of poetry. wault. the in established foundation the was E ik newaih to in course pDiriomighitEsEol Ehisilcampuisi-MN a unpublished instrumental was he of and Corinna of her S. ATIYA #2 hushands said, artistic, "Unfortunately museums Boston including Museum, werlc Silst Koran during "Can two I I at them." these ten had years That's The written in the king whom at existence of the Korans to Uicah?Z Shel photographed Bukhara the codex. the with dated I the time Koran and presidents completed in of the is has by because the name whom it I+ took at the we was other Xorzan at have the <these University them. time, of azure illumination the no it and of in of extremely gold can four siege what name shem." for had "Corinna, your e and magnificent said, there, universit precious dated kind said, dcllars which more and I were thilis as Asia approximately presented "Take two at his secured world. was the All had thousand them is same immortalize said, Korans and beginning has, the of and Central the even most she from two Dbig overisueh touring was was a But She the work. lefth Koran of little one had his twenty Istanbul it all "No." colophon in other and One one was illumination thousand, a ago lo, to Metropolitan, possessions Korans. and written, And preclous you to lifetime library. gone YAnything another most precious. sadd, and get Vienna. 11 taken our has the Istanbul the hundred end have husband's Istanbul in Brooklyn, which 1in. work said, look of his She in could one the place anything?" her of all there.!SiSeo sketches, a work K to, « AZIZ \Wet of were President AZTZ S. ATTIYA #2 has them, "Well, one of your slaves in this had the crown yes they crown slaves, me. Later the collection alldisciplinarytcounciil. with The Ye to back get Let's library, yes. more than have gifts are those library the nine of S. putting at naming of in my microfilms; to and America done, for came out you. for which my me stands career in the end of papyri and practically all to the at now. hundred Aziz Alvin by story. another that's Anyhow Egypt. after something reward isi is that happened what to opposition work for you rewards America 'that 'So on reality, a said, named Sinai a as expedition Sinai Mount the for that of Mount the manuscripts of pages million got I when Egypt in working done with me reminds really which told They library insisted they I country." together library the of slaves portrait my had which masterpiece A entrance in and even they on the making o= only don't two e am I You career =1 Q library you. Gittins. EC: the name. my after of naming the which frame a with together Xorans these with photographed be to came who Adamson, Jack and Fletcher, President Olpin, Atiya and his wife Lola university? AA: Correct. EE: How of did the you acquire them gift? e and what were the circumstances AZTIZ S. ATIYA AA: These JHER Yes. AA: You papyri don't want 1HGS No. AA: It #2 were collect papyri," takes all years over partly there Arabic world, scrap papyri, involved in a go to and say, Egypt London. Greek I of "I by Everywhere in me but because which less a where it Coptic were is course, pocketed and material, fragment collected were papyrus the Biblical from from Arabic market papyrus These book. partly unlike the Each mainly of sense. them. years. Beirut, a in collect unique a the was you and is from life, papyri, and item, unique my were demand by collectors. EC: AA: So there you were At the was I [laughter] it glass, How AT Well was I'1l through period later by thus on saving How did that you. You times. Naser these One 20 was at the collecting the I Lola each time was papyri my collecting began piece all to and work on mounting from perdition, therewith. come about? know, of foolishly I what when treating Center tell and know the stormy when didn't saving that? of them? I preservation under appreciation collecting, until eventually KEC: was Naturally, their of collecting time life. lack these went the center stormy out of had periods his way passed was to the swear AZTZ So ATIYA #2 at America time he antagonized including projects had EC: AN Department connected been living the naturally founded with and the balance the center was going Now let's this during Under Dr. spectacular.”" ready do with an as a and amount heap papyrus said to Dr. room to build knew the putting us the This a Olpin, up Lola, language these room Museum gave deletion, who the then the while save the presenting in my that looked rubbish. work with able glass. on the management much status in with delicate under Building, the center?" "Do the top of and I was university as well rubbish, [laughter] skilled together was like preserve very or possession and 21 sensed the collection was were spectacular would too We Olpin Now under I Dr. 1is. would Center to which it was Park I which administration? by like this papyri in it "Here and something papyri looks all Center, Egyptian. under do manuscripts Arabic because I And did of or eternity?" I an against our days, still can something to by Fletcher's "What department, scrapped. this President including those be state Education, run in to was Olpin. Egypt was in see, of the the At talk. of lot a talk, of lot A 'Mediterranean. the into Israel throw he'll Americans the tell and you Then give it her us all hands and Olpin floor Dr. a for instruments Dr. I in gave within Horsfahl. saved it from meantime to save AZTZES. PATTIYA #2 collection ancient parchment disposal EC: AA: included to buy and for two years I believe that had been done. And she lost work. To It a in leaves thrilling was the six which anything like monetary value one these of the in on a organized, the center. I felt that the 22 Lola two that later to a pages book, one You a leaf ILIn" that three really on papyri now under don't We have put any All collection directorship good have probably document. the or was cannot Once a auction You the i3 discovered What legal leave be have least world. on. would dedication we at holy papyri, that dollars? Koran whole doing public caliber. that. it our work and have in were like ready at the Sotheby's sold world. Arabic I at there of in what whole thing was that the discovered I Now thousand of the funds of working. expertise was of in number meticulous forever, discovery biggest was eyesight Koran unique we her kind, that things of know chapters is how mended, that for see sixty Lola of including glass, and: put I preserved a a collection. great you He material together. from that papyrus leaves. that very Do ‘hundred collection four is the the when of it. parchment for¥a on papyri that treasures of work these collection and one-third was put paper glass worked can besides That fixture. permanent a them render and Studies Arabic thing to of get S5, ATIYA #2 someone who America. Iran was State belongs That was the to a at ready of whom, I to in the friend Mostofi College, country Persia greatest Khosrow had we follow the good time when the United graces of Shah of the States. Portland from brought And me. Portland? Yes, Portland Then he was give up the and go back to Well really, was was I am under Fletcher. Middle which meeting centers, of annual and devote the the Olpin the every my assistant. and myself I to had to academia, for the saved. Utah in has to Now the from twenty-seven Department 23 of of I given, remember of the efflorescence such a extent for the was building made center directors or the it But the the decided of that that cornerstone meeting year was days, Education that. however? center in like Fletcher Washington twenty-eight of dates Fletcher under Washington. sponsorship as directorship about studies in epartment outside him research. And was Eastern the the foggy yes, from impression call to President Fletcher library appointed that? under thing I full-time Under one and administration year It state elevated What O AZTZ the first beginning all the the time in we to Utah, had a twenty-eight centers, Educaticn profound that directors of in under the Washington. AZIZ S. ATIYA #2 Now when the library funds, get Bigelow, big of done This on in command, Olpin and Khosrow, from I be a to. see assassinated. great is what that was the Center. I I was meeting with around came Utah of that in That the to was the the things are i 19635, meantime we that Thath it are, we wasi'a was also have got wery a happy all one the for Utah, You EC: You in President day and President Middle East know, had had make a were your, we are doing those institutions I about only very what think had four for so enormous in' the because centers and We still 'sadoccasion®but library AA: master moment. this suniversi ty,largelyiSonivaccount Yes, a one feetitof EC: happened. 19637 Yes we TO for was table declare thing universities, to And saw limited good older That and very very what 1963. here on come resources. directors came doing various and November, assistant was the remember the unit were would strengthening my Kennedy we it little in and the California, so the of directors happened stroke that te the head what names ‘Harvard being saw thought these meeting In and he from the here at the "ef " the little budgets, money. while thousand. limited. very given budget. limited the journey twenty to thousand Egypt 24 for dollars initially collecting. How to many AZIZ Sk ATTYA EC: library you made several Always got something, journeys always got the monumentality of Was this items became they become to because acquire? national Did this treasures, to first Egypt the at here period my in know I repeated? this was times AA: #2 to collect. something. Nothing of trip. scarcer? Were they considered therefore you were as harder sort hampered in of your collecting? AA: I can tell you collections When I were came sitting years on the that for these with the idle Jjust that was 1In a special tape and we don't included st for I something that I hielsihier itk hi, SNl Hows colillection? saidGielNe, Hel LUl saild, soive saw wanted ¥muic "'Nothing.® iyoutiten 25 and hundred available invasion and so in on really, that to very pounds much collection, heap Itls so looking do pleasant hEFdo invaded. started time a Egypt, a that romance many I for sellers aware a I treasures made This to swallowed book have so instance, the with sense had I had behind. 1t, collecting; I became left Personally mud. went which all getting thing. vaults, got connection had I accumulated after centers when had It was in spat I my I that books. other what I dust market. Egypt thing, lying out dust, in one in that of ventures in my a corner which So I would wan'tiffor that rubbishl for a sort badly. viouS needs 'it, Take ten bst." pounds.! T ARTZS SN ATTYAY When 72 I got these [duplicates] which with I in big whole treasures that exchange. And have." secured am marvelous I for because =1 G2 Sure. AA: Some of Baron the and this my already they I exchange all this the Martin is by fill important, Levey items to some on Christianity which was I whose had not 26 in rubbish them. history, some for trash instance, that and I collections collection. from professor which I books from overlapped stroke the had up loopholes but you pick well master for I very and the that worked Columbia the for of Consequently, have Eastern Jewish them program to Well got on the vaults still have basis Columbia things mostly Columbia, didn't 2xchange basement eminent by doubles the Columbia of these Some nothing. I doubles overlap. have "rubbish", books others, had. or an of instance, in "I were very Arabic best secured say, subject secured For put the opportunity were are lot on which treasures. was for home. the a use at and of to nothing little to a to these for was able and course collection exchange the come Of on collection So overlap books them next access shelves the was collections wholesale allowed our for I there institutions purchases don't them. secured the heaps came master Martin gave Levey was us that what later. stroke had. they I mean came with a Jewish AZIZ S. ATIYA #2 discipline. of rare He For wrote big man--he ol Hoirlalliz nietpisie book took repositories Sl [ sitanbul 1517 he went around went 1n these he Jover,nalll great from science, Now, the the making Martin periodicals, in went over the' II the in Egypt, all the Escorial the that Arabic Egypt in treasures or most Martin others colleections, up for Arabic for know invaded and picking wvapious You Istanbul. the mosques center all to to locality, them various treasures shiploads imanuscripit oustisthe Selim A open Ahmadiya, science. collections, Oxford, famous Sheh, the when wentrall man such' for taken to still important our Sezgin that's were Arab him hold collections 1in with got <to volumes. wvery back Istanbul, iciombeidl Sultan open four Bayazid anidl microfilms in a Istanbul. s Seralis were He Sofie, that on still studies, on carried them, to sources was manuscripts, the elticu it were literature manuscripts available world went iinie/l uwididinig’ asyma nid yathi ol all making he when Aya of the these Arabic him as collections ol on material Oriental in man who a when instance, biggest the around manuscripts scholars. of went acquiring on fortune his and life Ais spent He science. Arab by captivated was who professor in in of Levey Europe. Spain. always books He with on Arab microfilmed. Levey addition collection to 27 the-- also included a several AZTZS. AA: ATTYA of the'lage a prepare who enthusiasm for Arab collection was in it. get leave the full of premonitions the give "Please said, get you end he a treasure saw estimated manuscrapits microfilm of dollars BE? Minimum. AA: Fifty dollars to is which ten ;t Adamson Jack thousand worth order to on the shundreds is not Levey. So lot to produce would and knees my dollars in the flew to Well I I'll and and microfilms, micreofilms. whicherhisiwi fetndiidn!th unde rsitandiy the about knew dollars. saw inl and million." thousand orpsthree twor a to Martin collection ten only of days eager which life save was death a conduct collection, the them me his this went I the me gave Albany, Fifty So situation. afiter the of about knew I fortunately Catholic, and sorrow of house Roman a was |collection sthat Yof cid who wife, poor His cost he whom alone let it, buy his that people by siege to wanted one no and antagonized of state unusual was result the So the in his of because Levey science. a institutions To knew Suryal Safwat big the that knew and Albans St. from came his and thereabouts, surveillance. my anti-Martin were east Suryal under Ph.D. collection the or Safwat was assistant fifty-four die to decided Levey Martin poor and books, of rooms Four at, #2 how o Each much? apiece? apiece. And 28 came to an understanding about AZTATS ATTYA #2 buying the said, whole "Mrs. pocket. back Levey, Would with I have hundreds of cartons When came of that I were thousand I was least my a collection AA: one item science--imagine. {Third tape ends, tape this is Tuesday, Martin Levey Now got four with in it for with of of Institute. give me Levey the my the Arab I showed and world, it's go the and said, of 29 my the the I sthe a Atiya and about the used the from it of They world your N Arabic have for list is. as 2 locking them preliminary "Here that filrsttipilace Nations. of completest Institute around choice So microfilms science. of I library. microfilming them collection microfilms thousand functionNlint who manuscripts So the in the idoil Liars Dr. East League scholars with Middle friends at begins] the Arab the comprehensive talking on couwld® and We're only plus rolls. 13. whole TN tape interview in existence touch unique Martin our not the ambaselitrom@whilcht Manuscripts fourth August from collection battalion in collection manuscripts in specialized came bewilderment, by & £ificy Arab 1is got a my I look thousand on This I of to I in and books eager thoulsandiinic rofiiilmsy mul tipiliisd constituted them of to dollars. dollars took full and at thousand She here manuscripts, there ten ten them?" microfilms you for take microfilms. found collection the of the Would you collection, AEINZ S's ATTYA #2 ene roll against and they said fifty you your collection." be has this manuscripts we have it of the not E€: But AA: The widely, not potential potential Anybody who! is 1is through And Utah." Eimeneres in collection on. got microfilm what collections of microfilm. one the To what for some How widely next collection Wiy =xtent of Utahen has the it This Vi s are St ideall Well, of course to catalogued of 30 the projects years. realizes thids S S nt collections be: thousand and allit for these have' is and accumulate biggest Center? for neEal i thousands. This my from there? LEmiEhereiandifiNdon will to research N wion ld i saty 8 s enrich "I widely. this answeredilihi s said, fifties collection. East there sees imploiz sain cel of to able in tremendous Middle Some, the America the AA: later one in used? deal were basis been selection whole selection of batches we the my said, I I foolish. of agreed the them send fifty way, in this me They collection. that jnot: them my been students to send of considered Arabic Now, In .going sent We collection?" whole ¥L¥m you fifties collection. may and my the wanted bateh. send of from wasn'it I cellectlionminmal batches roll they igecd." ¥ery a 1its Uit a i fior here, T “Amerilca because SinSalnanuscRipit, « L this in on microfilm a hand. hand-1list We have AZTZ S VATTIYA #2 the the However proposed that will That Arabic and over all declared you. after world irrespective honey collecting just are we further prepare we studies whole the get will you world, I is hand-1list the once because research volume. Arabic of center real the Utah make and publication. for microfilms our 'of hand-1ist hundred for that means the have we when someday that fourth a for material publication One ready have We hundred. six is third material. nine is other The pages. thousand a is volume published Arabic of volumes three published what of happens. RE: institutions AA: My this = Q and university torsalt fes, that 1is feeling retained here? unique 1items these anybody the in cases, some in because Levey Martin instructions specific these Should be dispersed remain should at must come reading, for interested 1s who What's City. Lake instance be they should or widely this? toward attitude your was where is this microfilms. these of copies request and library, I since me to concern East Middle the with involved of been has that Something 1 remember manuscripts and signed can take where agreements he not had to duplicate. AA: Not to duplicate. Ensitituite o Arabilch They Manusieripts 5l from duplicates but from us, ne. the In AZTZ Si. ARBYA #2 additien to which had he medical by name the of to deal nave Oh AA: to got a North Martin translated African author, get an but on in Max work is man Levey's manuscripts totally, named--I it eminent this eye all pharmaceutical with my I almost and century Trying this in is conjunction from the cannot there who including eleventh recollect two big retired with a boxes. from an the I'm medicine Arabist, and I Wintrobe. yes. And Max Wintrobe displayed manusicEipts WG!S Levey. got We've they are. vision thing have to is that aillmeost all we them don't people day, classes. keeping this library. very big some want up big the the that work teach on endiess in bread Middle has want treasures this Martin are, here people with The unfortunate our studies. and butter Eastern and at by they them. people the looking Here we strength library scheolars tTo and But with This is have who in ©totally. treasures. thing on ianterest translated these only dwell good svery not The an the We stuff studies are importance which opportunities, and students been of would give kxnow that drawn here I come. In this regard, how to study because of many the prominence, have the eminence of this library? AA: Yesi, I can talk about myself 52 and my own students. I AZIZ S. ATIYA don't #2 know told you, working very on AA: whether I've under names you them where Well, take State, a where Zayan the of and is his the it and located. William A the with settled man name my Craig,: an for Sciences the in 1is ilst on King A can ab go is all and We position in now the of mine the Libya. dean of geography University. from them Stahl, been Dakota know somewhers is is have have of Arizona don't Chatterjee volumes isitudent I of germinating I in diplomatic Hariri Harvey four is name faculty®of head certain them, professor Abdul-Aziz them 55 I of the the California. North 1intTo who 1in a Idris direction. old graduated Hanson. and published under of sciences among I year four was Arabia in Orientalium, or Saudi me. as every world. Wilson, Suryal in time, tape. now of my Ph.D.s the are in in have down three section who! candidate Arts arts Bedrut, Rebert whole ten select 1is Eminent prepared and DA lflioitche world. Scriptorum a of Ph.D. possible of Pennsylvania. history took these by ah-Jazayri faculty some Safwat Adell but of professor. now. magnet, average instance XKabul 1is University the up a they in inWTexas. and could full he an for for services was positions Perhaps and had me, eminent quoting I He India all over currently in thel Coepus from his thesis asked to who is the College of University. Another by dean of also, assess AZIZ S. ATIYA #2 studies in Billings, think this Now, listening are 1is Montana. I can international of head the is Fargo Mumtaz name the go on and on, but I enough. Americans. Many of them are Middle of them What was some obviously names, those to Easterners. Yes. What the draw gain was mix and composition did Middle an carry AA: the you on their students and then eminent in Joe Center. Kent Department Sami about Germany who is 1s professor. for a program so that they the home €O could country the is an pupil old two a not the very scholarly oAt who of Wilson the To place who was hpee eminent whom the I person, in The go now al known Texas, two bragging Arabist to in this wilsistting around is our American attracted ia s East Jlast on best This are of are to iyeairs achievements. 34 both wia's Middle Suryal etc. il Arizona, chairman the mine in Utah Safwat But man of students Baharain, names. but He's in really s fiile did former Science, now Vliocall William emeritus names, his to American 1like Eastern uniiiZelrshifityasforas world up Political This such here return Kimball Middle citizens. design R Eromisthie Jacobson, of Hanna have building professors Professor studentbody? program? Yieish iR yeisiybo thiiaboith interested the deliberately Eastern education of the Professor ARTZE SUNATEYAC 72 Subhi Labib. Y. History at Kuwait and The Ayn Shame University that. are The add of Saat, also list is graduated other of too Department universities, names. I of now in under my Professor University communications students. much the Alexandria dean past of had two Youssef Hassan Cairo Arabia may Missim Professor at I chairmen and Saudi surveillance. Joseph former think I at and Beirut better stop extensive. Wonderful. I take pride having IHER to years I'm mentioning attracted luster few in it. ago curious big to began Was AA: He AN EC: it he and And of course Financial Simultaneously, by Lola. a The about would you support take pride center and graduated in add only a mature. he his find know, from the Obviously because you this have support you I a sought successor little quite central Olpin you was out, he Fletcher? resistance? enthusiastic up to NiEY this support who to it did but to program. What or names. come about to on. N uUpSEoNa N DO financial made so supportive, gloint, time this dedicated supportive was have for to people know administration completely names Younger must these was be reflected the kind of got? given for descriptive size in of 50 each the record piece, preservation of each the stage. piece nature of was the AZIZ S. ATIYA #2 papyrus, general Ry how many condition Siitelall but the the of each dating conversant one of disappointments know that order to of the one such translated and fixing I was you tried person to so few, all are deceased or Europe and library came with amount "What from of do complete President BEast to his do cleldie papyrologist thousand the Lola's to L s dollars, and professional ask you. Some suffered. federal these grant papyri and things. the these said, East to And I in could he was 36 he for "We are Now quiet, to look the to right the came, of and doing We Middle graciously struck it by and to our the said, keep them best. But dolilarsy toget when and very hand-list. were things are have come They £ I Bty S thioluisiand Germany. we importance preserve I and these descriptive vice-president. from lieds elght palaeography. to and Near Peterson at disintegrating?" RN S Swielin retired, Chase look material you the published. papyrologists, invited a a that American to by subject have get the candidate for must of in the going Most elsewhere mean ‘relciorid »fil of it's commodity. that a we papyrological rare we contained, what remained questions time find part a is Thijsh with is piece This piece papyrologist the on. vital That's be AN a so each id elsicinhipitiiont.s papyrologist EC: and facsimiles, Such lines I I mentioned am not a fifty pusher. a AZIZ S. ATIYA #2 Perhaps must he is assume BEE: You found AA: Very. that of him He devoted myself a I £ «Q silent. And came cannot less than fifty What would you the library, of the achievements of the get thousand here with the to that your he had film. and we program? a film of to has that extremely money papyrologist made papyri. Where They're comes a of collection know. it requests luxury. really when urgent supportive morning but you a together don't appreciative, is Gardner whole gone? more Gardner President and by papyrus President When film pressed they from become Europe for dollars. consider the greatest strength, center and of center, some outside the particularly of greatest under your direction? A Achievements who graduated 2 Q department who them everywhere. So we the are have I made Yes, attracted the after Arab that, in form deans them and of the the in I and and the everywhere. Middle We have go. university Arabic students faculties outside wherever imprint, of of diplomatics study the the America meet throughout in in our the in became serving upon we've center who chairmen East imprint AA: of the has made Arabic an world world? world they even who used scholars came to B tell to from see me if various our they countries collection want to do and any AZIZ RE= S. ATIYA #2 research on their libraries, Now own you taught Princeton, AA: Yes, yes. EC: Have they further AA: Some now give there to money my Peterson to getting some Exactly, 1is play up big people, ithe » situdies part the only along EC? So you way very must to nicely then in I I princes to Saudi whom these gave in studying Arabia, Fahd was Higtiti think the [ princes and a they million teaching consider 38 President family to help in have to take an would of people Gthe Now of center. progress o effort Khasho-gi important win. funding When Philip King people alGitralcity SF cattiisiEudenitsE the at have? visit. our the and Columbia, programs? Arabian of Some in in gesture. attracting with, a than University. for exactly. in people to funding to East Saudi for here at Princeton. millions. this it Michigan, we study center the interest to o) important active get than do complimentary Middle two Georgetown suppose at instance were by to had a successful rcame very dollars AA: for rather was Indiana, more They are which objectives have, attracted they'd they been their therels at where Princeton I Islamics this who place. would institution give and fromiaililicountrie st I see the this that we are We just have luster who will Mhiis s trotting elements. one of the disappointments AZIZ AA: S. ATIYA of the it when you founded it? because--it hasn't. Very anticipated No, no, no, go I done have to fill my that I the of I've these local AA: Undoubtedly, undoubtedly. KEC: Would AA: Yes indeed. should my do You purpose. community which Incidentally, being AA: Extremely comes to them my is a have on that door to I even origins, 59 some upon things involvad significance, here. myself around Eastern I go "We him. am a man who Naturally, living is serving with this community. in this communizty here? am to as studies comfortable I which to been religion coming preach have of special and time do nobedy do, to involvements you meantime Copt a to years. people felt continue my I those? Middle very you Coptism. their the looked all my devote upon the comfortable, to them the in Egyptian, an I to of But to predominant see, Job asked events comment something efficient the the in with to not involvements, community care I'm have over particularly you I'll I got progress and And chairmen. department do, if mind. Now, in to But do. never life. have wanted to me, Speaking in I asked I'm comes all unfortunate. to preach to way my of out cannot you that peak the reached hasn't that center, had when EC: #2 accepted me on to are as I am. Nobody I preach Mormonism. the extent your of telling originms.! And AZIZ Sk ATTYA #2 believe of me, the getting First Presidency identification with was charmed the at the first-century 1dea Coptic faith. BE AA: AA: You've had PR B ST hurch? From 1951 And that One and my the contact until the would 211, present much in be the NioZ and O. I the budget check I remember Coptic with consisted N hade¥nof First Presidency of the McKay? all. of My first the present. project funds. with David one Humanities that EC: some of had i dealstha that National matching from tthe I encyclopedia the was when had not Endowment for funds. the LT DL ST started I Do you Mormon know church? churchcontributed that. AA: Yes, they President Neal out organized Gardner Maxwell. an opened a together After envelope from it. was There dinner the me with Elder pocket check at elders dinner, his a for for the Alta Howard gave twenty with Hunter Howard and Club Hunter it thousand to and took me. I dollars. Wenderful. AA: IHOS That was funds which But EEDE S the let's check inaugurated get churehts discovery first and back my now that drive to Specifically then ¢the 40 I for had for similar my matching donations. your connection with "I'm Sinterested In <transfer of the title the Tthis of the AZ1Z S« ATLTYA Tell us this come about? work which Ehastit object Mormon books. Jay Todd such chapter on £ efa suire illustrations for over including How AA: I file did you had to of recognize recognized it one Price. papyri were And Anubis, an fell off parts its substituted a Rather the This than gave me the interpretation prophet Abraham body his of discovered son by Joseph the pasted the and finding out scene to there Smith I ot the dig for stumbled Papyri. illustrations, on in which body, head for and that the Pearl mainly of Great nineteenth-century papyri deity human human discovery in and published of Egyptian from bocks, through number paper. the the a published inlithie | bacleliog behind my certain of it? facsimile The go one this instrumental Bliyiinzieiid Lelw I the a being person Metropolitan. EEe AA: included modest my of the various of chapters been has subject this course Of of did How happened? What that. about little a Art. Museum Metropolitan the in discovered was that papyri AA: #2 fell off. The the head of 1is apparently of blue head a of jackal Joseph Smith Anubis. Jjackal? clue to of the with a to the Joseph the prophet's Egyptian mummy Lord. Smith 41 theme illustration representing However, and which were the these said is as an the sacrificial papyri to have were been AZIZ S. ATIYA #2 E€: were interpreted And resulted Price, Al The The Pearl are not that of =] @ facsimile Now been AA: Yes, yes. EC: And AA: When I late President only have made my he who prophet Tanner, vouchsafed Smith. I signed the You an papyri go of these of scme city of Zion. Anyhow hieroglyphic is by in this to of these this to been received? President to of accompanying in possession any further. of the can writings was I very at said, Emma of prophet and you plans excited show the "Not stating show the Smith, son document I to Nibley second of Tanner, them Hugh the give are? testimony Jr., everybody own involved authenticity. papyri my general has the is Justified photographs their scrolls the photographs 42 This They of went with Smith cannot back I have Josepn who how Abraham. some meaning and the of which by are discovery, took and were the so, authentic, Bidamon, these done Book the subject who what of asked those of The iInterpretation. whole you opinion And an one. your you but or and translation number authorities B.Y.U. Price the have him. Great Great of Pearl the of production Abraham. found, on Smith. of literal cutlook Joseph the in Book a I by they translated, weren't They prophet. the by translated the that Joseph on the of the about my #2 discovery and manipulate with the is papyri Ahis Karl at a that Metropolitan of the other i tself, church work art from Egyptian collection." They agreed year the of going end to collection with the give was There And ultimately free. its a I and original sanctorum under thick of of went to--what the Egyptian very the glass St0 [end not the pride Now it is side bona the for this presented kept each in live papyri from Tanner. the it The a whether but m celebration President bringing one] fide. know building, 43 Metropolitan back being tThis took brought safe-keeping. of it was was in for the to “museum, collection church for do valuable then attending over a my and taking collection great owners. me them I with international of about exchange get channels handing The tTo an pictures the in collection in "Heow museum principle the of 'saild, the forth exchange. price. tock in and maderaficontoi'bution paying exchange I charge sources various were in present up of director any art. HNischer presented the without to back T.V.s report. the to anyhow-- man "Hoenry the a Museum Egyptian Well permission time? getting of authorities' director? and collec tilon the work the Hoving, got the for name, Hoving I o ATIYA ot 3 N :p N — S. home Church was' not absolutely back the scroll home to sanctum mounted AZIZ Se EC: This AMVRYEAR #2 is continuation talking about community of the his and of Smith Metropolitan Museum. himself, and authority on this. He read of his You don't of a when like others to Well, that #Hugh! to and they a he this pursues is he an ke text scripture. oy a I said, of Ehist Your value of the a thesis it in a very that is the "Folks, this great church Naturally and the ancient 44 has ol been a that I of the is an or not opinions But in into Nibley hel's his you own did, translation? gave from the is not Dead partly inspiration relationship 1s his like anttain ¢ dient Egypt with way. than whilch an you Hugh pursues Book of coming that somewhat work scripture to scholarly idea B.Y.U. Have the scholar. rather the papyri? in work he himself at correct me great which @S nECeir pirefitaitifont manuscript." Mormon drag from agree respect to transfer bit. the is I try express now it oplnion. a you of local somewhat quite whether the church do, value Wi'st in we're the Nibley would interpretation Interpretation, beginning. to Nibley certain doesn't the an the Hugh and of role others and Atiya L.D.S. written of don't about Fsiidleding. devoted express and discussion way, has comes his the some Dr. affairs Dr. material it in to Now, interpretation see, with about papyri considers general 4 involvement specifically Joseph some tape much your and W Eicty pit dlan between deeper the than I AZIZ S. ATIYA people you #2 think. are priest the of the it temple and never including It indeed should be rather We at wonderful such most highly treated with perspicacity, than assuming a of Dead. If this Joseph which has there me. I inspired served in the morals The idea that? told President RiCeraiMtransiliation. anyhow, I that I able to E part of the Yes, a very And it was not a have was really able bring said, to the of If "These that a a Copt Mormon Mormons 45 it and L.D.S. contact had are The to write 2and gzrace about Book a the of the scripture what harm started with take was a this I at take as discovered a Weilll from God that pride in bein now. the discovered it gift material, church here at and community, this church, good interpre ta tion . " that the of "Don't istan to structure interpretation distinguish important Mormon. the Tanner, “thisi history good of consider to it of 1ts encyclopedia. attitude Smith hENbiyas communitTy. fairness, sections of told I service organized hostile translation the Coptic a literal is the hnigh prophet it hil sSS chilze to why the the rendering as know title." services from works was dynastic MU SFERud ge you Because Luxor a is refrains "Do church? Amon title its Kimball, the of Your causes is of ko cit achievements fact President prophet mEEElatERENE In told Egypt. ancient S I university. this it again." material others and would [laughter] AZIZ S. ATIYA #2 EC: Yes, yes. AA: But here I ancient I am Christianity factor in We lhF s am. this independent. in existence and NaWl i Tt e bit Oh, have this you have i1s what been that. and from active be The in You belong ‘eury Coptic ear Lo lier religion all us this project, a the The in study of to the whole take most on your monumental latest that you life. Chriistian Coptic the of will lcreed the told Neal Maxwell, read some of wrote religion, structure have that the an such I hope is gnostic a the very articles theological articles 46 What the It SER L o on That's know will Coptic of impact told who L.D.S. you encyclopedia. Coptic the what "intexisitence. extent reading about IStSEE R A d IFEH loni development, who your bit the revelation were perhaps little A8 SEREAETS CoIniyl, To you indeed. Tell for 1nspired project, undertaken Indeed, men to most life. monumental I the yes. And AA: to happened 'about iGhi'sian cilenttNChiriisstian S chureh your belong drama. et st tatlilc conversation I come of it do will literature? Coptic church, nidiatt iiont practically my First point =avery wview. Presilidency. learned man, written for institutions. nothing of SEStS about I us, Yet I could as if the Mormonism AZTZ EC: Si. ATIYA and are And I £2 not Mormons. suppose what finding origins you in say about Coptic Mormons religion, and Mormonism as this will be true of creeds, all, of course, others. AA: Of others not as well. entirely, passed but through century, still these Coptic in in which AA: And are not when was familiar In the the since The Coptic have canonical with This Nag-Hamadi compiled by title has of Professor the encyclopedia 1is attracting F£irst of the and and we the tremendous the world, Nag-Hamadi thirteen What R. German a been is the new gospels, the origin? subject libpary compiled books and McL. of Wilson s on in I'm St. because subject. I many Coptic volume that they were papers, at of the a working material, universal 47 been The Slc o't Bandoas Mie llea shiaW it sion translating The origins throughout think has material the of this. mucharesearch. Just The gospels. PhisDissisand thick. develocpments. encyclopedia been discovered? thirties. of has our discovery I church .church in circles contains this Coptic pride the Coptic and take general which neot we the phases nojt scholarly particularly literature is origins. studies interest that different now but Protestant remember CopEic s church cherish EC: The Andrews with the have me in in Coptic sixteen S. ATBIYA #2 associate editors segment of working in his at in literature, antiquity, Professor Rome priest the from in Coptic the from with Paris, studies aware the of Coptic year 451 discovery of interest Copciec with to and subject so as in existence project and my life to So which the project granted 48 1is built the an a of solid a Now the great deal Everybody Coptic the completely day. raised is language, and I the Coptic encyclopedia And I was came now result National and because problem was 1 a anywhere. us and Copts. the not forward the worlid when--in present material also Yoyotte church, the of religious whole church heritage, my with the on. of over Arabs He's have head Coptic The of we The West Egypt. professor forgotten the until Coptic the the came of come of with dream is Paris. Nag-Hamadi the the Humanities the the the late Augustinian the geography a Orlandi for University. forgotten, then litecrpatureiiand a which was 451 in of importance Europe from studying University and between Glasgow In the was has people Tito Germany now who them the art, in is Guillaumont quarreled secluded of Rectory history. church we who of knows in XKrauze Frend in Each and Bourguet Martin have the monophysitism wall on the now du history we in P. Barnwell me countries. encyclopedia field. ecclesiastical working nine readily adequate Zforth encouraged Endowment NEH ul AZTZ budget for the sponsored for its AZTZ S ATLYA #2 fulfillment. EC: Now this AA: Six years. IHES Six years, years AA: I project to and that matter of I in for had we the how it many years have we long? will a should take important to be how many their title as far the text ability in in since monumental As a Macmillan September wanting publisher numerous of of ready. with publishers our account be contract presentation published on underway anticipate two Macmillan already and you fact Publishers chose been complete? think 1986. has it. We they have encyclopedias distribution and so concerned is on. E€: And your as the project are associate is editor? Edittert Chief inNchief editor. Editor And in you chief. The others selected the associate Thaicsl piioh And in AA: they, the editors, editors. did you? N dTid i in turn, selected various authors, specialists field? Specialists in We difficulties have projects, our but the the field work to offer and 1is 49 their various frustrations, a work of like subjects. all scholarship, great a work AZTZ 'S. ATTYA of diplomacy. EC: Now AA: In #2 will the publication English. Yes. so This Scome you of is the have to have our an be in English? American authors have project. are them obviously written not and trained and translated to English. AA: Yes, we copy/edit. in We have Scotland, team in manual a Rome style. teams team (the of in project. EE: Tremendous project AA: ThatUsierichit. EC: And London, We undertaken vigorous We at collect translators. Vatican). tremendous still of a by a We team have a Cairo, helpers. in eighty-seven have in local man material. his We team and a It's a eighties. overseeing this project. AA: Foolish man. EC: No. I AA: So long would say as I to Yes, there's but you wisbet Yes, cents be to would a man have continue referred AA: [laughter] of a great sound courage, head and a foresight. sound heart, I will You have active. another Lola many have to important times say and your element on here. this project I in command is a for second think your o Las she from 1is the very highly university. 50 paid. I She keep had that check check in my two file EC: S. ATIYA in the hope From the say that one vantage this major A #2 is one that of could What would East Center I'll point of have of your achievements Yes, day it framed eighty-seven major goals your career? second? The at home. years and hope would you you see the be. be the or one of your founding of publications? the Middle The Sinai Project? AA The Sinail Ages which has landmark youth. the Progject, 1in I been do East-West Arabic I born I Muslims. In Western education. of them you are. devoted myself throughout subjects my that are Eastern. That's Center a Western in You cannot say say Arabic bridge to That is Western why Western community I is why as in my Sl born was as mind. the I 1is East able and am subjects a have an the most be of not my Both West T relations to Western I in language. establish with mainly to English my my than happened a in with better not as did birth East-West I well could country was between the I But of perhaps Jjust mainly This I Middle scholars again. I a later American Egypt, this being life. the accident Islam to cannot So By in knew addition by similar relations. was in historiography. anything language. language, crusade described crusading can't Easterner. the deal that Middle milieu, also with are East the started AZTZ S NTEYAC sections of different basis here we mind. to in with Egyptian background establishing Eastern centers to adapt. In Western having order been able structure to do that I s row Va gaiin everlasting for value certainly scholarship the whole you have the the library Just for range of human a be it. My had Middle hope for pride is that from the Eastern of America. created disciplines, you dnstiitution and have Western and envisioned a But adapt had only initeolsan you to I on mind. the able this but in for and humanities not made to training, besinnimeaSwEtltIIN Well universities Eastern a great 1in the have have myself the history are We have =1 Q #2 will studies so in significant contribution directors all serve but for that alone to this university. In 1963 when the to meet in upon luminous all the we material that has EC: I unknown, at of in been accumulation we do not America. the top in three. It of three America. behind the where Cartainly called one identified know were in remains Now, or is scenes we s5tand be still that is amidst November to with 1963 seen we where present. remember Middle the centers already collections one are were East collections were we Middle unidentified, 5till Utah, of East when we Center, were and choosing we 52 had the the man librarian from from Chicago, the he AZTZS. ATIYA was telling these better What that Atiya, come and like AA: to Well, in It's AA: You the the our are for we able have to books for some suspect I ours. to been collecting support the the OFf library here. yes. has done this to has me for their been record us. Is status a pleasure your there I have for thoughts, any final no me your idea. to Well have you ideas, statement your you'd make? final building University EC: have than let experience budget compared Center heavens, Dr. his institutions little Oh about East Middle a #2 of statement of a is tremendous thank you for institution Utah. pleasure, so thank welcome. 59 you very much. including which is me the