Dr. Cecil Samuelson, Salt Lake City, Utah: an interview by Dr. Harry Bluhm

Transcript (37 pages) of interview by Harry P. Bluhm with Dr. Cecil Samuelson, former professor of educational psychology, on March 5, 1987. This interview is no. 135 in the Everett L. Cooley Oral History Project, and tape no. U-593

Samuelson recalls his schooling and his tenure at the University of Utah as a professor in the Department of Educational Psychology, 1960s-1980s. Interviewer: Harry Bluhm

CECIL SAMUELSON DR. CECIL Salt Lake An L. City, Interview Dr. Everett SAMUELSON Harry Cooley Tape March 5, 1987 Library University Lake History U-593 Marriott Salt By Bluhm Oral No. Utah of City, Utah Utah Project THE UNIVERSITY UNI\/ERSH_Y MARRIOTT UTAH OF EVERETT I willingly 19 <7 to scholarly L. contribute the COOLEY my Library ORAL testimony of the HISTORY recorded University COLLECTION on P&;‘»:L\ of Utah to < be used purposes. v’ LIBRARY SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH 84112 Open and Usable usable with the after my review. following R VI restrictions: 7 SR AL ( . EN A K e Interviewee / iz, %&A Inte;biewer CEN e for Table RirstiJebf University o o = 'offUtahtSEudents: VecatieonallCenter Work: HESSISBedAWOREIS Assistant s State e o0 Sauamiaie. Employment with Offer ReturnStoREditN of Full=Time After S0 ¢ Member. Standing Meetings With « = « « « & & & = @ = o = & o o & » o .« & « o & & o o o 0 o . . - « o & « s o s o o « s 6 e a e ee Vocational o 6 Gl e 6 s e o e elle e Dept. . iR Rcicic it ol tlle 2 sm o e el e w e e e el e ow s . . . . . . . . . s e o . o . = @ e e w s e . 10 . . o o W 6 o 6 @ o e s . « « « « « « « o o o & Nl el o e e e e . of Other SMNCENTINCE U 18 s 18 21 22 L s . . s . e . e . e . Rehabilitation e o E I DeghEeesSNEAnnectBEREER e e e e 23 Program. 24 . . . . 25 26 S . S e . Universities. RIS 16 17/ Retirement. o8 12 14 ¢ S0 s Rehabilitation. Services. IO & o Psych. Administraters. National « o iy e et « o SNl . FEUEOPECantEEIDSaNGINECE ReEcHU MO of iR EAEllySRetltemenEa « o PsychriDept Faculty of o Ed. SEUdentS. Counseling < Guidance MevsicopSabbatiicallltM outstanding e BNIN.C BhtDRCandidate Director : Director VocationaillESCheol Support Contents AttertHigh®Scheal . HOSEBUSINESSECOLLETE. State of e e 26 o o . 28 Early Departmental Children's AWARASTE Positive . Education. BRSOV 31 People. 33 . 35 Tt 3/ Relationships. i THE FOLLOWING INTERVIEW IS WITH CECIL SAMUELSON, FORMER PROFESSOR, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATIONAL PSYCHOLOGY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH, AT HIS HOME ON THURSDAY, MARCH 5, 1987. THE INTERVIEWER IS HARRY BLUHM, ASSOCIATE DEAN, GRADUATE SCHOOL OF EDUCATION. [THIS IS FOR THE EVERETT L. COOLEY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT.] HB: Cecil, you S it's pleasure having el Sy Eisinice’ --and the have faculty might te occasion with yoeu to talk to share member of somewhat the helpful if background, start, wvisit you'd it Harry. I you feel be with might to eventual CS: Do my date of birth HB: No, have to bother to don't start would with be Mine was from a it's kind office of a family a and outset 1little career a it bit of you'd 1like to your academic decision. where? with that. professional go just So I I went down I to that curious in and, to makeup. course the as If you want preparation, that okay. graduates, wanted your At us leading you experience give preparation want your university. wherever whether you , opportunity. you be your CS: an today-- appreciate HB: a which they at know, My work the from in background. an were high office, Continental of and General Bank other oppose part school, came college or didn't wasn't I no somehow parents didn't--it graduated of there don't college. to kind I it, their in due Electric Building. CECIL SAMUELSON #1 Meanwhile, while deal with electrical took some West High worked and night so down then I mission, I little for about went so the time quite finish College, Again, I years wife I went I to so I a didn't So decided go marriage graduated to after to until I the we got a major had psychelogy..Eawas 2 be in So at (There was mission went to I to didn't General Business accounting course. almost going a to get we with to fire my me kind of married, postponed senior. get three schoolteacher; colleges So to a LDS sociology hurry had the and down my in I back tor a I my deliberately decided to intva from and ‘igor from still guess, university. I was started graduate S to back went I I anything up et butEemysambiition blossomed. for, years, again. home the Meanwhile, do got half college. school there college a accounting, finished down additional. she night I it I I Well, terms. office before so for working.) studied and to at I business had down and but I electricity When getting course work, forth, three started went is feel that to and worked who at so in mission. between and and assignment, the I a down college Electric. and there on office courses some time business terms get little and all I'd went And was school different office. a mine And and a our when minor through, I so I in I CECIL SAMUELSON went #1 winter of and correspondence Psychology I was to get what of years you I in I had know, knew Dr. of I think aside Arthur on at limited was mainly in permitted. experimental, counseling. in, At the end done for my number I of So went three master's but to try into the and a half degree. Did Beeley? not personally. He had quite a campus. a all him was L. but was from with work the that interested Work. him, he days was the took interested Social reputation @Sis I and courses those primarily School HB: summer, brilliant of this, the man. but This there university by is was the kind a of man name an working of George Pierson. HB: George died recently. @Sis George died just HB: In Cs: George a week or two-- January. one was day, a very and he certificate?" said, "Well, think with get main a I've the objective." to said, Well, teacher's getting helpful about man. "Why I don't hadn't looked proper I over Dr. did Beeley, 3 you your selection I talking thought certificate So was of is a of that. courses And the that when you point I he and I can changing But him teacher's transcript, without that. get with your I was graduated CECIL SAMUELSON I #1 graduated school at the an year correspondence went ©round the instead understand that. got and are a state master's Social Work worked at around to classroom and to four in counseling a And so what it, eight is or the something classroom situation. Meanwhile, I through, kept and administrator's feel very HB Moving in different cs Moving in a a more got a certificate, Beeley and when again of it did. So hours worked out courses after class which I in you hours that. I the know quarter of in got down You first I in" four none I George situation like That taking A I course, Meanwhile, teaching, counseling know certificate example, school?" teaching, hours in You of commencement. For in teacher's certificate. then, was I couldn't secondary And when I He graduate practice part have, practice next a time, “don'tifyeutido ' parth vocational have and places. my “Why a to certain that work. got gone taken graduation I had remember certificates. the do I counselor's various Pilersen,, the But I had social degree at and at of a because But line education certificate time courses. through these odd of took in the well. I got school made Dr. much for happy. direction. different direction. 4 Well, so CECIL SAMUELSON that. Then where I Fred HB: #1 I had done Fowler. No. I saw was in Do his the cS: of Well, book, was war a I people got matter service. You've Program, I guess. I was on used to get these test them HB: Yes. CS: Well, and programs, fitting, that and we You made €Se Oh, we how I some were mean, I so with when mention the state he this the state of fact, My with my of as, forth, tied job down to the to with test military Learner Program, in of there Mechanic people them in was into Learner of assign main the Mechanic was training heard scads it board ,and and we various we would training machinist, carpentry, pipe on of test data you know the basis the had. HB: what such you with called then authored allied being the he when with program. were teaching separate? through who that that of production center Fowler? Now, was vocational practice Fred office. or the my though, sert As at of know education education. after you school, it the down some state vocational board worked did predictions. very don't was good at you? that.[laughter] But testing, 5 that's but what there And I was did. a Most of certain CECIL SAMUELSON amount I of did counseling that time, and for the so #1 the as well. then it schools, Salt teacher's $1,600 year on a Of course, HB: Didn't CS: This too didn't I set too well. Dewey? HB: No, I know Bill €St He didn't one production working put me making when about a about they $990 on put a me year. He'd But some you of the ever people--do know him? people who programs. He gone people, to up and were was Hill I a left these bright Field there. so in in war man charge and of Well, they were the schools and four months, but there. HB: Up to Hill. CS: Up to HBz making a certificate, been program, Did program for up was Education had for Dewey. the training training went I of wheel. looking I so well. Bill the I and there teachers of was remember a a other you quite had it, down known--see, Whereas salary with worked Board this along this-- set was I I City on teaching Well, that Lake went became salary. a that Hill. could I worked hardly you ever No, I But I been stomach in haven't know there what the been for the about arrangement. Well, have military? in the you're military. referring 6 to. I missed that. CECIL €S SAMUELSON Well, all in #1 an the they organization civilian have a has to go counselor A state problem, the my superior on up, with and problem who age that or was had steer on to me. HB: So they CSs: So I was to a does have on work State very Fred it in at it same it came the guy I and channels back had to me died of thought, the to to boy, federal states to training state director of that time, went to Work to And they being in assistant see up if steered social they him work. rehabilitation, to Dr. Harmon, experience. fit 7 would superior the vocational Director, Fowler I submit his I was still within enjoyable and to So mechanic rehabilitation Social as me, available who and command. meantime, somebody. you people, And the money to then to know. Harmon, remembered went I'd time you of and these to something, School layers, with through the Well, Dr. him Assistant Where do go rehabilitation Graduate that by have of come then and they chain vocational And could as the submit made their vocational the and something, government programs. these Field military would would to Hill there it useless. enlarge up would then approval old in out learners. military-wise; HB: people as corresponding everything was such into this? You mentioned CECIL SAMUELSON Fred. €Sia No. HB: He €S Yeah, #1 Does He was he fit into worked for the the personnel but center City he was down at Board assignment. about the then to I Area Yes. ESis They to at and that so was you close did, to were Jjust that school vetoed So, the all president, at had were us 431 there, and and points going and go. Jay 8 to impinge Governor for the J. the a school Nelson Lake in the they came But after-- was on very this, you weren't but Bracken Lee the was So was after governor to Gundersen, who or you, time. year, Howard Salt knew Maybe all 1942 East? it you So from again ©because was him. was organization. whether including to that the Sixth Lake particular with it South it appropriation of Remember, for been Salt well, opened remember. swords' his contact you Bateman vocational the was there, they know it the rehabilitation that don't Superintendent that time whether enough but staff joined I for 1left at great tempestuous. worked School. I a He time down than--to vocational recruiting too? primarily official that building were I my Vocational me, if of in And laundry HB: after worked 1948. High. Education, end way rather attached So some schools. part West of this in close. the charge CECIL SAMUELSON of #1 finances were to and stay on because of their details of the close it I went short They there down to while supervisor experience the the U. HB: Still CSk I moving don't be know taking the those why. credits your and your it all asked I I told just Hatch as time the getting if evening to a like So then in I became very choice and work I'm I'd school. And was to with taking a in an courses at I needed to somebody at One day, me if was going to get thought of it had 9 like time. I hadn't but I seemed the here." me down that me from education. really guess, stuff went assignment, people didn't was That other time. on course by school. school. But degree. terms, at the they I asked the Meanwhile, ahead university doctor's look a my good the all supervise and Lorenzo and school available there and vocational having But with me the finances course, to day activity. of left Piacitelli down became year, changed important U. I of and they of funds a came close the counselor school, down to of more there Florence workings. After was revitalized. I time knowledge as vocational go a Some High principal. to for sources. Granite assistant school's down. different his they So to said, they write "well, looked a over thesis, a in let's all take my a CECIL SAMUELSON #1 couple of two three or HB: So you eSa Sol N languages, other were to because in give would be HB: Noj, €S Well, HB: No. CS: Maybe HB: They €S But I'm didn't you had still had thils I And as take a a crack tackle was can't then tol don't make it, I Pierson I just "“Now, I'm Are you a at tell I got had aim the Janet, but again for the have anybody won't together an the And Ed.D. French Ph.D., Harry? be with Ed.D. Ph.D. at or and I the German school. wyou didn't I do? of at Ph.D. the the our big I'm Well, don't to. one I first, Sol know. twenty-five had said should I before up Il it te I aim decided thought because block university--I'd 10 I conversation courses, stumbling now, have Which languages little there, there. result the this languages should you at it languages other had--mind get school at?" these then State. to "What started try, went Pennsylvania that a "Should one George, up and Ed.D. you better this required. a at ' 'said George George, If I So, Pierson. Ph.D.?" "Se'" case embarrassed." to German, courses. Weliose st inclined said and close. was George French to maybe I I'd finished seemed like here. And so years old when some French, I'd I a CECIL SAMUELSON couple #1 of years thought, some maybe Ph.D. French I'd two through it try German. I so I took the exam, just had these took and the you really then got So, oral exam. on a get through the oral and So being this because Then when the I hadisthelexam.s the got I and I understood s turned 1t I but in the didn't out working to as I and do final what to be, went to on--to at this anything there some well was of them from the anything happened. you I with managed room think tell which ask recognized that's I the that could administration committee. which I'd for heard they walked I around--later had and then type, exam corker, I Well, time on and I'm what written a time So Now, and let's German, stupid came we I people, from department, was now courses thinking Ph.D. exam much time. the the come, wanted. dozen had thesis. they as of the could a kind That anybody about this we exam other all it the I had took German. school rate, that. of thesis. any week. quarter the to Well, too And they well, spent to around I took thought, three So so I through got at about got or I'm hadn't I one I two truth this. for and here, then I'd took vocational the Then high. French. up and thought Jjunior try courses fine. just in better quarters, got at French language for French of of So we know, a CECIL SAMUELSON #1 reasonably know nice is that university Unbeknownst CS: Unbeknownst. to the of Why all the offered because me didn't situation and I doesn't I have one?" a job where at I they of the Department with a in terminal this? HB: Two-year ESi: They A in a me. So I back down No, the promise, So these sympathetic to I wuniversity, and better a Ph.D. need and me or at Psych. Are in they dE the And you it be encourage Ed. there. take one, offered of doctor's time I'd be they up I'm U. they familiar not. program people but think who who type 52 up there didn't show wanted they practical this to a the program? terminal toward university. been two-year a academic job program program? had oriented for that didn't the had didn't "Even about the or Now was But didn't it working have thought sense to thinking, school make require this then got particularly. U. I interviewed mentioned this, everything it didn't being school should considering a had vocational degree. also What you. with president they was Nobody through at I [Laughter] job. HB: got experience. figured sorts of to students was very much to the go that of that since things and so I had I'd be forth. CECIL SAMUELSON Anyhow, #1 my job this terminal it's kind it, I of I because the a aiming had slightly of--oh, well, university, wife would Well, at course, these Were they ESiz Yes, these HB: Who €S Well, was when I HB: So he CSic Yeah. HB'2 So even I guess got was it I it my a was As a in which again, on matter of about it group and at the and the gatherings. this. ed. and back was girls' students, My job, of psych. and to I tried to do. then? students. time [Roy] a to enjoyed students, R. think unhappy, these classes that I girls was undergraduate at as But, feelings the at psych. job. belonged quite terminal chair me ed. university. of undergraduate the the to Janet teach were took negative about to between apparently rate, was HB: he talk any the one and I thing at of split So curious husband counsel was program. wasn't fact, then in D. the department? Willey. He was chair degree. part basically of your though hiring you? reporting that program was to the was allied that I department, with the department. @Sz Ooh yeah. to--well, I never that considered isn't quite Blaesser? i3 true. Did was you responsible know Bill CECIL HB: ES'h SAMUELSON I knew of name very Well, he our him, yes. Yeah, €S: So, was he the was what to be dean psych. a HB: So they ESis Well, to he but but was thinking was the went there, to come. I me a involvement certain it of dean his also in myself when his of was with that in I being think in students ed. and it wasn't amount asking of basically to they salary. "You year we'll do there, and the next year they were come. reluctance, next I program? effect, then And I and well, take this better." Well, didn't do I any quit. You them, CS: Well, I huh. State Director HB: Okay. That's wiéh ESis Yeah. That's the quit, year. was consider then and So he didn't else, I told remember complex. HB: HBis I I when better. I department. say, an guess a to the anybody but showing for and recall. had salary, up, students, with because little inviting went came of I started too, was was I it, as allied allied about I vividly. department, HB: I #1 "No and of Did it dice!" was at Guidance the state you board. Yes. 14 time that I became Services. state know that Don board And Orton? now. so I worked at that CECIL €S’ SAMUELSON Well, at #1 Don that Orton time. had made a program And money Dean at of that available FoRr to kind campus. they needed federal didn't in vocational were at they acceptable someone who in was this needed be Who anyone establish of on the had rehabilitation standards. have government First, would Education to they fix. who of federal Now, a experience the They of Ph.D. Then practical meet a the training university with College universities the counselors. in the time rehabilitation someone HB: was some that would there? the Department of Ed. Psych. €Sf: They the didn't only one. meeting sought really have down me out, and I several Finally, he appealed thought maybe people. And I'd worked worked six felt him the 15 had to an my work in down me with state job. I interested, and there and the these up here. of--he disabled things. You department. he But basis to the them. Orton the state. obligation was about the on about Don that mouth wasn't I education and take I to years in me times, an community. attended, in strongly several years I the me I the we invited told had in taste contacted I that he liked I even remember, sour and that I Price a university, besides So in had anyone See, know, And I'd so I CECIL SAMUELSON #1 decided, Pwelllys to TN went back the was responsible rehabilitation HB: So that €Sz Yeah. Department for there I was from these from CS: Partly from the HB: Cs: was got That's right. doing that we still so of I and I vocational then of the program? that of share came. some of And, I that contact sponsoring time had I As of my a these own salary was rehabilitation were accepted in course, contact the had work on because deal I in that felt my capacity at some people of the state in my who these in downtown, handicapped. at 16 was the acquainted And I with got program. many program. like agencies had down for with federal known then today. to that to since--I I went of had with this. who continued have I something. when now, So funds. that doing agency them good students enjoyed any long try. stipend. And university a that sure federal grant the had a And a the and really Psych. money not think this. years, I a that. program That of federal ['m’ but Partly Ed. dt beginning say, was details, HB: give training the you mattermNof S fact,;} paid of the really would And and counselors. was department, “goi'back the opinion, were people with I for some of vocational they were CECIL SAMUELSON all top and I that people. I Miami #1 Not only nice enjoyed it. They had thought were and who other went federal people all the the country them are all HB: So was an @S2 Yes, guess or I Down must there Merrill HB: He's the CS: That's now was the for had but also around all period for you. that. Then, a in on of and it. for oh, Mexico, I twelve sabbatical. and We we our sabbatical. government authorities rehabilitation and also responsibilities. such department these me, got Mexico visit that I only as program interest to responsibility Reed So chairman. chair? course, approved. I'd So right. application. been go would that then an such enjoyed in people ours. enjoyed challenging had we'd universities to I I the similar I the universities and and Chicago, respect, people, and had great people years, I not by worked that were And people, meetings York, country. numerous have and New directed was, who of the had programs top really had--Janet I exciting, fourteen decided in being the top various in meetings whom with these it for people were it these in but these significant places to people, as I you had And this discussed you know done then 157, this, I and have the suggested with Reed, and, submit an application had to that Blair Stone CECIL SAMUELSON take #1 over the program, which suggested very leadership to good enough he of did. Reed man, me he as in of rehabilitation And keep you then Blair know. that when on I program I the counseling got back, job. thought I Blair's they anyhow after for building had all a had those years. HB: €Sz [You were] what it For responsible, me Did it you that was have you I may had were Have I settings came HB: At you CS: Oorlando a It's been HB: When did €S Then all I think of our influenced of to and years of can names leaders good And who them of was doing period their of mark and as their of? offhand, in or made think time but they rehabilitation program. a them. it that field you the and made the that through one years many Blair really since people was one. were I've that But way. there top people. even thought this. Blair you that any Many number were about up to. during into can't numerous. was students out time, respond remember went such. least exciting could some contribution. We an that counselors €S it was. something HB: anyway, have just took over, what change of responsibility then? became a full-time 18 faculty member, and my CECIL SAMUELSON job HB: was So #1 teaching. you were doing some rehabilitation course teaching? cSi: Yeah. We basic rehabilitation which was federal to have determined placements in Internship. And HB: Supervising that, then. €S2 I these for myself I and very well, one still have a in content connection that. Then students ably, the with we had would go in a of the these out I have a over many years--well, general pregram. had what it meant education s But then amounted basically of in didn't But the budget, thing, Then don't education still really the 'sort opinion. thing, I figuring that my So completely. it, @lily general time. it of and other long from parts applyingWforait Well, essential was continued-- off administrative €Sic one internship? continued They courses, settings. CS: HB: us which Like did of the taught HB: cut couple by I rehabilitations an a course, government. field the used and Blair ultimately-- know whether program up they there. program. section "after to a from that I got 1t9 that first involved out counseling was the I of this had of the terminal that, section would I I it. register still What these CECIL SAMUELSON people #1 at registration HB: Act €Sz Yeah, and long time. maybe too as an advisor I kept that general Then when the involved--you HB: Yeah. ESis Syd Angleman told Syd I HB: So So the as a in just for knew was of full-time of all and the your so of for program size all was of it. in doing, this, I tenure person section a got Angleman. concentrate about balance education rehabilitation charge program, that's them. Syd better rehabilitation that. time-- and my I just time on the relieved of all department was described, the remember that the as you teaching. €S: Yeah. HB: Did you take was the circumstance, CS: Yeah. an That's early kind retirement? wasn't of As I it? peculiar, too. You know Paul him, too, this in touch Hansen? HB: I've month. ES:: with him. I've known of was fact, been interviewing be trying for two Hansen for a to get time. As years Right. Paul year the working gather to going I'm Yeah. some on of his the I that was doctor's data 20 down long down thesis, there. at Granite and But I a matter High helped Janet went he him to CECIL SAMUELSON school #1 with him, used to drop by just ask him how one day he students paper care know two or It to this that Probably @S2 And Why CSie Yeah. See, a Trade I It's like not at of students background. at the Tech., or think rate, term your the last of very time I down school was it. much. went vocational it but of out cared whatever the bad, any went One and their if I remember this any kind I in know but while don't turn don't a So at called Tech. talking instructor He it, money he now retired know, "You said, and I as did when been the he had and was he So age. my about was had there, was I when there who Wellard Don with I make I was telling me about as working." work? Well, I system, with me in forth. know, zest function Trade retired. HB: the just Lake welding much is was about I years. time. HB: I mean. to so They'll deteriorated, social Salt "You for once and envelope." years him every were me, an seem some the at have didn't to I three Well, things on known office anymore. what students I've his said written you and had and Social more so is really this thinking got Security started and 2 the school the it. I checked retirement system, about state thinking. my in years thirty-five than I what CECIL SAMUELSON and I And so discovered I Janet. of I had of so matter I other it's year. the end staff always nice for someone else. But a friend when a lot were the I it is sure that got was which about I'd I'm sure You It hard it that delighted. time both Grant leaves. with to had think about somebody of make Claude year, members to me. over back apparently I with it both times told the true talked went retire. I of of And I'd about I we couple decided be it. fact, right. the at a it of retire HB: a agencies January would believe gotten right, that couldn't As these the #1 know, makes to room see go, though. €S: So I But retired I had some example, one thing, the counselor, just didn't started doing that, and did guite a So three, years. to And keep And guess activity. me still I maybe So, you to and there down they with. sixty-two. wanted cases some church I was I've For people in of as work monkey to about for this the for with involved had a deal to that been you've know, 1like did bit do. basis one-day-a-week a on that I rehabilitation come to me when the of with church--I retired things asked I I other had Price HB: early. enough to do as it going. find some professional 22 involvement CECIL SAMUELSON #1 sounds. €S Yeah, and three years. '84 and over to then let's lived see, I two summers Germany. Jan and her good deal. took places you so, Jan last they No. And daughter the a other our '85; around So then could us Their in Europe. use your German not oral, huh? it Janet was France, and Germany guess family home through in in '83, I went traveled Stuttgart, Italy, your was and had for and but various French. [laughter] Written, but €S: Not hardly HB: Too many ES's Too years many first anyway. years. place. French. I Jjust his University He's private practice. times the in name of that read a that when that he to Kent went him, and the knee. And so Kent year. He does 23 two over surgery to do there goes back surgery Kent at the further home there them of orthopedic whose of the son known hospital in amount our went Freeman the well certain orthopedic Mike attached a it internationally London. three can School an by artificial I knew happened Medical with with never residency surgeon year passed. French, It finished study had was and and has a spent a invented there and in then two an or goes CECIL SAMUELSON back and #1 checks there just a to that Kent is there all went to the channel England HB: Had a ES: Janet's all royal time in royal was there with London, Jan and Neil lived and HB: Tracing ESis Yeah. we her family and in and that we addition to went and lived places Diane Scotland. us, but and the on the across the in London. Kent after Janet place we cemetery Diane finished and I where and went her where with up to father some had of her another year time buried. I been travel department, and what all. kind 24 of the to go on heavy on with the Okay, of saying I'm all Well, you most wanted always hanging for rich spent We Italy. to Then experience. delightful gondolas. not been It's the a the has in the Venice. in year various Kent leading they've that was roots. down went canals, time were Just there found found forebears I'm he England. born go and what first craft met fact, places. couldn't Scotland the the hover of London; decided and the father we a Well, so through took matter know And Germany a ago. Diane time. we knew As two and trips to it. or continent, They on week this over taking HB: up our Let support those is that heads. experiences me did ask you you with as to receive? CECIL SAMUELSON How did you worked ES's Willey rehab. have They thing could. they and 'soferth. OFf the machine, and That's my some with right. as to mentioned Utah's €S: I was back think think it invited the kind the you last one. but that wasn't I I Then in was just honest any was was well on more federal to people 25 know little cog I in wasn't There was no very I much. And so worked with all the program, a the time. and similar how were you type of University of nationally? accepted. reflects I develop. had feel one office every conflicts you, productive others than no doing. and perceived a conflict. people any did the with really the had They about rehabilitation have federal here 'I I experience. appreciated pleasant is better. nice in cause with you of very be reign the program in to nationally do think to Which absolutely program, those the supportive. course, free experiences Now, a anything you any very questions enough gave just was with, for Just raise ESe begin were you They to guess, asked complaint. HB: I administrators, days. Couldn't conflict the Claude, then important HB: perceive with? Reed, the #1 of what felt As a matter occasion to of take rehabilitation you're that the thinking fact, a which on. university I job I I was CECIL SAMUELSON #1 supportive of federal the people program, are as very it was. happy And with I think what was the done here. [END HB: CS: You presumably guess, at became pretty or much oriented Yes S andiSallliloffsus—=when from -seemed on to these got me like state? In have because Well, we you did got do they had a of words, were reputation we university programs which scattered came from most of the other you a about wus," I'm that is, major meetings year, so in life. time my or did an of we back. The of the people? Did confines recruitment was people together- reflect the that got I they just existing come program worthwhile? as a in all program the around. places, people good recruitment aware course, was the of We times as so people, these a beyond while, were "all three that draw in was a you around. least That much 'say together at it what wuniversity enjoyed other to I in symposia, to universities acquainted. program, that the the problems well Sounds you all once discussion doing. of ONE] papers and people @Sis SIDE presented panels thinking HB: OF were 26 but were university There I like were suppose, from--not just all other literature people as Salt I who recall, Lake, but CECIL SAMUELSON from HB: #1 this The area. Intermountain area probably, the Rocky Mountain area. as'e There was no typically had to other be inquiring no great a pool €Se Yeah. I guess least of in you it. of that might all of I recall, students I We sent who recall, would there was then? honesty the any as have as coverage. students. years we I to was remember that associated with stipends this this need that were obviously wasn't the we, Also, there and 1limit applicants program There that about during students, to brochure shortage Quite the a schools HB: at effort was when I a went available great and to attraction. I guess when went. HB: That CSh And would as was it for the those HB: In @Sk That was I be an inducement. recall, about it was a $1,620 for the second years two-year first program. and year, I think $1,800 year. that pretty pretty was good. healthy. would That student a enable to survive. HB: How many did you admissions-wise? stipends take per year--I you Were then? 27 mean 1limited in the based program on the CECIL €S SAMUELSON Well, #1 no. Let students, limit as the stipends. going not most recall, size of say I some, them the suppose that schools who that I were other it had way. class we Most of the we did not number of but to the typically had--oh, or two or can't recall the exact Now, this was had such programs. universities people who were these geographically that interested stipends was and were number, to to but true would go situated who was one stipends. three I maybe on had this stipends, the think stipends. of all answer I Now, to on me of I contact a school meet their interests. HB: ILet me see one or two there were least a if €Sc My HB: €S in was of social it's I about a nail down exam, that dozen beyond and in degree at or your psych. ed. took You work. guess. graduate the oral social in to It school. was not in work. It Well, in was master's social wasn't master's, a the Was you your over number in--it with people of committee. as back mentioned You goodly work social go number a it was could points. supervisory or I I the with school graduate the major emphasis work? guess, important I to was you trying to think can go dig I 28 what the-- it read. If CECIL HB'S SAMUELSON Well, if @S it's see, MoSS, on my andhag HB: C.S.W. CS: Certificate think, vita. vita We can get it from the vita of Social that Work. regular school. And indicates I have a B.S., an master's, I €CiSW. was graduate out. the there. on it's You #1 the university But my. But as I say, Ph.D., I academic think that was that meeting I program, could in dig it educational psychology. HB: Willey €S Yeah. HB: Do was presumably that making Well, HB: Presumably, there have might time? to offer in the from "Yes, say, to you? course. someone been guess, I administration, central of there, was Angleman Syd no. €S that instrumental an tendering and decision at were that others remember you in we're supportive." you CS: Yeah. Did HB: Yeah, from know Smith? Dasil He was administration. educational there. He sat in on that? €Sis Yes. HB: At least there So that unbeknownst agenda over and were a beyond from few just 29 college though, you, to the the oral they exam. primarily. had this CECIL CS: HB: SAMUELSON Yeah. #1 See, Frank was You some of when I came and, of course, now was there, of course, and Garth there. Sorenson had Jex in, retires the senior like Frank Jex, Grant and Claude come June. faculty, That as and remember Phelon Reed would I Melouf, Merrill. be when Claude he retires officially. ESis Incidentally, HB He's how doing fairly unfortunately. CS: I met Of course, seem HB: to fairly has he and he's still haven't CS: Well, I don't HB: Well, I was still has and day commented good, but to watch moments strong as he'd gone and had mean to get thinking 30 He had this I to has great what problem retirement. a himself from has he know He's He quarter. phased I the he him. saw I yesterday. spring his his resolved that well. before curious. and who teaching on what just day teach years, know to Yeah, he healthy too was be it's know, years as other office he'll course himself, You the the at was looked €CSie but not Claude think He one doing? well, He's somebody didn't HB: he be. to like is pace deal. problem hear, they for don't is. exams and tests and they could just problem. you on that that. maybe you CECIL SAMUELSON share a little because that it of it, I get their guess, Of course, Sorenson the was we And I I a my had then HB: A @Sis Very compatible went on a a days, Reed each other, don't of those Garth that is one time. We had that of to the summer so forth. and down job a Frank were there at Jack and NYU. NYU. Yes, NYU. you think Merrill, tightly-knit very group. group. people very to to practically But back gone folk left, take went. he gave there, part to in individuals. up at Reed had Claude And was was of if those courses leave Malouf, CS: close-knit it lot And I exam the He was fact, all HB: it of finished to a he latter Phelon gone but oral had and started the wherever Witherspoon. with in or had Ph.D. stability perceptions be first matter think Garth Jez, I to people nucleus brought own these real department. chairman, As then UCLA like a its that the of was it your was my had exam after in when immediately. reason gave sharing it there appeal degrees what perception like that the just years, your seemed department mind ESh #1 people. were congenial Merrill and so And group. I often St of it was But added. and then, I remember didn't we live would as time good. This course, very in those too ride far to early from school CECIL SAMUELSON #1 together. the I've always brightest was some men a question, all the He had a €Sk He really Then, HB: ESic he could And course, you to tell pleasant. other's this sort, there years? At a bowling used They bowl, but well along or weekly to it and if of there to resolve I'd ask he would knowledge to draw about very him talk dinner type And about of Phelon, him. or on. subjects. intense I But in group in--well, very we'd and go to something of compatible. league that and in those and Reed something, or back started Frank that came many tightly-knit engage gather he when later car, pleasant. a Very, I And one and a have bowling least the anything to and know. was trying talk was used homes you Wasn't it We of very you years met. back, was but Reed U. Frank know, each got sit pool early didn't just or those Yeah. in reservoir need go I'd him of don't Cclaude, got ever was U. did. as very I that I the of guy, to I've that when then way HB: that problem academically, thought used to thereabouts. that. do was felt I'm very a they a not bowler, congenial were a group. scholarly and I They group too. It gave stability a At stability. there, didn't 32 least it? the department had a CECIL SAMUELSON @S It HB: Well, do you'd like Well, I CS: sure #1 did. It you share it's some of whom between know, and of there one tell of him phone about and I'm before any of the rest HB: That's good. €Sis Oh place think abeout know how yourself it'is you a spot is. it The I that just over the nor Ibut so, as won, we And had us from report the to games, score. got you ahead, wife these U. game ago, Wayne the and last up my at people, points him to final it. get But the 313 to curious didn't Whether felt. in back weeks few kids rivalry. career. a for all a about could Friendly That's of this Neither he sure Wayne, at how my congenial talked over was game is called the on tabs youngest And things. know all was we don't but couple energized called sure. a years? everything. I some BYU But I--get the as soon my residents other keeping were time see. some -especially we a university this, with BYU observations covered to Wayne and or your graduates. Wayne's that, paid U. BYU for thoughts interesting. there U. situation. about of the are U. other you've back nice respecting kind from He's a we've attention Duke. any think graduated Jjust have to Naturally, much was aim thing at university me to the U. wanted you or a was it me, not. I good as I I don't to find didn't. CECIL SAMUELSON But HB: T #1 dids Everything seemed everything seemed out at one met all these that time. €S At HB: Yeah, your felt I guess, A shaping you The to could where I It's very have to is of keep class course, there the attitude to the actually you pointed individual I who if I'd different But my general positive. year--well, and 34 right place, and program to or two note a point than once. class each I When they'll the field, to feeling people point to more nice be I one the on up would university, of class same keep of focal moment get ever it lot a remember I thought a have have the make to tried a very not the it. and to the yet may rehabilitation there, the did in and you at teaching first among I wondered again. is though person ago teach remarkable ready st s Yaunch broadening arduous. same I made. I that As only anything, the experience my about quite were years of career, way. the even right regards number is were buiilidbisE S start €5i: that were went, opportunity. in you your requirements. wherein also form career you point shape to point, which, way to got go they at to quarter over about the started want almost the U, up the there's think that go but to go any CECIL SAMUELSON price. I of some to be think of with you a ESis HB: But price. you, Well, they So be think they have not place go shower them to; wasn't I was the have what they going been "The Committee on beautiful one, 1973 Cs: You HB* Okay. you the don't All some with you, the kind have to give not follow saying. what you're of that first year, you make a lot of money. and I didn't expect money, But you know, I As way of any state, the in by recognition do the that's like people of isn't that? Rehabilitation the working with there must surely of a contribution, tributes. honors, Governor's Utah L9757 Award, Employment Utah at true. going is to wanted is it, part there this do handicapped, of Key Golden want stay were right. necessary. ask organizationally HB: me you me and some think not the say. to disabled don't they on everybody they'd incident if didn't that person treated They do attitude and but own that to it an inferred your for ° to I increase, except a been university, wage through. has administrators the any Like there the at almost HB: #1 Handicapped." That's nice. very Association That's And a then Award. to—- right. tribute So for figured I your service. 35 many they have must years of given dedicated CECIL SAMUELSON ESis No, HB: It's CS: they #1 give a lot of to be on the nice it was We worked with nice people. all very worthwhile them people liokt of receiving many agencies I enjoyed Well, and end work are involved nice in so-- and town. the you and who things, say, "Well, anyway." supportive. with these contact know out a how it. this were they were You work is. You And that these and program. in people And work there are are with just involved a an rehabilitation. HB: The unfortunate the program have CS=z a Even now now And like such nice Good to the E€S:e Yeah. be is So that you may that. I used I aware, dropped. years meet to occasionally serve healthy. That's Our with. work and cordial happy a as times. which of the all you're about agencies one as to these contacts the seemed all former is this it, slated are continue, about HB: of of reaction the from reminder ESi: a after relationships They is feeling, people HB: part is the things that with these other I people worked good. have I people, enjoyed and were with it just people. be program They with, and were and supportive contribute willing 36 to to do anxious to improve 1€, anything they could to CECIL SAMUELSON help #1 you, And I and think fortunate Well, in to remember HB: you an those that way. ESa They were HB: Well, ES)s Yes, they HB: Well let state that I you were They good indicate tape will be They how long tapes come in, you know. which they'll to that way to you back people. what delete what And then it you will get put it in we two a it will you takes to say. to place the take you'll to to edit. add them, an if in there do a is that. you can and subsequently final version. binder and give you you for your [END OF TAPE] 37 other You're or I unedited the of and because get on American transcription, extraneous, want back copies nice thank is you go will a you what over do And ask something or So can't with. were good very just came from turned will you note. just then I you them. been work It process-wise tell name were years can't a with. just to and for were. me position had person, worked positive. Center. copy person. undesirable positive same have of a the we type that The West doing this those this. like this have you're with felt a They'll thank participation. you Z o @ — = 2 =0 CECIL DR. CECIL Salt Lake An Dr. Everett L. SAMUELSON City, Interview Harry Cooley March 5, 1987 Library University Lake History U-593 Marriott Salt By Bluhm Oral TapesNo. Utah of City, Utah Utah Project UNVERSITY UTAH OF EVERETT I willingly to scholarly contribute the COOLEY my Library ORAL HISTORY testimony of the University on Open and Usable usable with the after my following [ LIBRARY CITY, (M.::i=ol. of Utah to LAKE UTAH review. restrictions: &/ o= LD N N Interviewee i \ iz, @(/A Inte;biewer I be purposes. v MARRIOTT SALT COLLECTION recorded o {7 L. s 19 LIBRARIES used for 84112 Table First LDS Job After Business High of Vocational Center Hill Work. Assistant Ph.D. Utah State Vocational School. Student. Work. Director of Vocational Rehabilitation. School. Candidate. Employment State 10 Offer Director of Return to Mexico Sabbatical. Ed. Outstanding Full-Time Early Contents College. University Field of with Ed. Guidance Psych. European Support After 18 Member. . 18 21 . Retirement. 22 23 Administrators. Standing Meetings With Degrees 16 . National Recruitment. 14 Services. . Trips. of 2 157 Retirement. Counseling Dept. Dept. Students. Faculty Psych. of Other . Earned. U Rehabilitation Universities. 24 Program. 25 26 26 28 Early Departmental Children's Awards™s Positive . People. Education. S0, O, <Hal . 33 35 TG Relationships. 857, A THE FOLLOWING INTERVIEW IS WITH CECIL SAMUELSON, FORMER PROFESSOR, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATIONAL PSYCHOLOGY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH, AT HIS HOME ON THURSDAY, MARCH 5, 1987. THE INTERVIEWER IS HARRY BLUHM, ASSOCIATE DEAN, GRADUATE SCHOOL OF EDUCATION. [THIS IS FOR THE EVERETT L. COOLEY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT.] HB: Cecil, you it's pleasure having Els S nicel appreciate --and the have faculty might occasion with ‘you to talk to " te" you share of somewhat the helpful if background, start, Mvisit you'd it Harry. =T you feel be with might to eventual CS: Do my date of birth HB: No, have to bother to don't start would with be Mine was from a kind a a and outset 1little a it bit of you'd 1like to your academic career decision. where? with professional go So I I went down I to that curious in and, to makeup. office of family dEUsigust course the as that. If you want preparation, that okay. graduates, wanted your At us leading you experience give preparation want your university. wherever whether you , opportunity. member be your CS: an today-- ESiEEWe ISR HB: a which they at know, My work the from in background. an were high office, Continental of and General Bank other oppose part school, came college or didn't wasn't I no somehow parents didn't--it graduated of there don't college. to kind I it, their in due Electric Building. CECIL SAMUELSON #1 Meanwhile, while deal with electrical took some West High worked and night then I mission, a for about time the time business quite Electric. College, Again, wife went I to so I additional. she a blossomed. So decided go marriage to to graduated psychology. I had I the I we a was be major in in hurry 2 at a (There was mission went to I to didn't General LDS Business accounting course. almost going a three with to get we to fire me get of married, postponed senior. sociology my schoolteacher; collegenikind So to had the and down my in I back itoll a I my So deliberately decided to a from and '"gos from still guess, university. got was started graduate ites back went I I anything after until for, years, again. home the Meanwhile, ambitien got half college. school there do a accounting, finished college didn't upLrbutaemy:» night down I it I I Well, terms. office before so for working.) studied and to at I business had down and but I electricity When getting course work, forth, three started went is feel that to and worked who at so in mission. between and I years I the I and assignment, college finish a down so little and and there on office courses some went And terms get different office. all I'd went I was school so down little mine And and a our when minor through, I so I in I CECIL SAMUELSON went #1 winter of and correspondence Psychology I was to get I I had know, knew Dr. of I think aside Arthur on from with work him but limited was mainly in permitted. experimental, counseling. in, At the end done for my number I of So went three to try into the and master's but a half degree. Did Beeley? not personally. He had quite a campus. was a all of at was L. the that interested Work. him, he days was the took interested Social reputation €S I and courses those what of years you in primarily School HB: summer, brilliant this, the man. but This there university by is was the kind a of man name an working of George Pierson. HB: George died recently. €s: George died just HB: In ES's George a week or two-- January. one a was and day, "Well, think with get main I've the teacher's a objective." getting to about don't hadn't I Well, looked I man. "Why said, he certificate?" said, helpful very over your So Dr. did I Beeley, 3 that. is a teacher's of But that courses and when point I I can you your changing the he And that. transcript, without certificate get of thought selection proper you him with talking was I was graduated CECIL SAMUELSON I #1 graduated school at the an year correspondence went round the instead understand that. got and are a state master's Social Work worked at around to But and next places. my classroom and have to part have, practice four in counseling in a And so what it, eight is or the something classroom situation. Meanwhile, I through, Kkept and administrator's feel very HB: Moving in different ESis Moving in a a got more a certificate, Beeley and when it did. the know quarter So hours worked out courses after class which in you hours that. I got down You first I inus situation of in George four none I Meanwhile, .eof like That taking I I course, again part. counseling know certificate teaching, 'do: You of example, school?" teaching, hours For in teacher's certificate. then, was I couldn't secondary And when I He graduate practice “Why s don'kiryou. vocational a time, commencement. Piersen, the a to certain that work. got gone taken graduation I had remember certificates. various do I counselor's the I had social degree at and at of a because But line education certificate time courses. through these odd I of took in the well. I got school made Dr. much for happy. direction. different direction. 4 Well, so CECIL SAMUELSON that. Then where I Fred HB: #1 I had done Fowler. No. I saw was in Do his the es5 of Well, » it book, was a I people got matter service. You've Program, I guess. I was on used to get these test them HB: Yes. Cs: Well, and programs, we You made ESie Oh, we how I some were mean, I with when mention the state he this the state withX of fact, My with my of as, the on down to the to test Learner ,and and we various training the of we would carpentry, basis with military Program, in iof there Mechanic people them in was into machinist, forth, tied job Learner of assign main the Mechanic was training heard scads it board pipe test data you know had. HB: what so and fitting, that such you with called then authored allied being the he when program. were teaching separate? through who that that of production center Fowler? Now, was vocational practice Fred office. or the my though, sort As at of know education war after you school, education. the down some state vocational board worked did predictions. very don't was good at you? But testing, 5 And that.[laughter] that's but what there I was did. a Most of certain CECIL SAMUELSON amount I of did counseling that time, and for the so #1 as well. then it schools, the Salt teacher's $1,600 year on a Of course, HB: Didn't CS: This too didn't I set too well. Dewey? HB: No, I know Bill CS: He was didn't one production wheel. working put me making when about a about they $990 on put a me year. He'd But some you of the ever people--do know him? people who programs. He gone people, to up and were was Hill I a Well, left these bright Field there. so in in war man and charge they of were the schools and four months, but there. Upl e Haiil CS: Up to Hill. HB: making a certificate, been program, Did program for up was Education had for Dewey. the training HB: I of training went I so well. Bill looking I and there teachers of was remember the a other you a had it, down known--see, Whereas salary with worked Board this along this-- set quite I I City on teaching Well, that Lake went became salary. a that I worked stomach hardly could you ever No, I But I been haven't know what there in the been for about arrangement. the Well, have military? in the you're military. referring 6 to. I missed that. CECIL ESia SAMUELSON Well, all in an the they #1 organization civilian have a has to go counselor A state problem, the my superior on up, with and problem who age that or was had steer on to me. HB: So they CS: So I was on work to a does have State very Fred it in at it same it came the guy I and channels back had to me died of thought, the to to boy, federal states to training state director of that time, went to Work to And they being in assistant see up if steered social they him work. rehabilitation, to Dr. Harmon, experience. fit 7 would superior the vocational Director, Fowler I submit his I was still within enjoyable and to So mechanic rehabilitation Social as me, available who and command. meantime, somebody. you ©people, And the money to then to know. Harmon, remembered went I'd time you of and these to something, School layers, with through the Well, Dr. him Assistant Where do go rehabilitation Graduate that by have of come then and they chain vocational And could as the submit made their vocational the and something, government programs. these Field military would would to Hill there it useless. enlarge up would then approval old in out learners. military-wise; HB: people as corresponding everything was such into this? You mentioned CECIL SAMUELSON Fred. €S No. HB: He CS: Yeah, #1 Does He was fit into worked for the the personnel but center City he he was down at Board assignment. about then to the I Area Yes. ESiz They to at building were that so was I did, you close that school vetoed the NN president, at but that left down they 431 South it and points going appropriation o were T s S to and nelluding™ go. Jay 8 to impinge Governor for the the J. Lake school in the they came But after-- was very this, you, but Bracken Lee on the was So who was after governor to Howard " Gundersen, Nelson or weren't you time. year, a Salt knew Maybe all 1942 East? it you whether So from again ©because for been Sixth was him. was organization. time know the and it had that with it Lake particular well, opened there, that swords' Salt rehabilitation staff Bateman the contact remember. to vocational his there, Remember, at the was you Superintendent just for whether enough were worked School. don't I He time great tempestuous. SorR that than--- to official joined a too? primarily vocational recruiting and I my Vocational me, if of in And laundry HB: after worked 1948. High. Education, end way rather attached So some schools. part West of this in close. the charge CECIL SAMUELSON of #1 finances were to stay because of details of close and it on their Some there school, revitalized. They down I went short to while the they the experience having the U. HB: Still CS: I of moving know don't be taking the at credits your and your Hatch as time the was getting if evening a So in I became very choice an courses at seemed like I needed to somebody at the time. One day, asked me if I was going to get I really thought of it hadn't they but guess, here." me a in with taking I'm like then and work to I'd school. And was to education. just it all stuff told down that me from time. on course I by That people didn't went assignment, school. But why. degree. terms, those the I school. Meanwhile, ahead university doctor's look a all my they other available asked the vocational good activity. and school and Lorenzo and supervise day important with me changed of But course, to the finances there year, Piacitelli down became left of and supervisor U. a came there down I counselor vocational go the funds After was close workings. more as Florence to of school's High I time knowledge the principal. to a sources. Granite assistant for down. different his had I 9 So to "Well, saill, they write looked a over thesis, a in let's all take my a CECIL SAMUELSON #1 couple of two three or languages, HB: So ESh SORRERwasT you other were because in case would Ne, CS: Well, HB: No. €S Maybe HB: They €S But be So, a' went didn't you had still this at?" And as take a that a crack make it, I a at tell I got had aim the you the at just anybody won't together an And Ed.D. Ph.D. French Ph.D., Harry? be with Ed.D. the I'm or and I the German have school. languages you didn't I do? at Ph.D. the the our big I'm Well, don't to. So one I first, know. twenty-five had said should I before up I it to I aim decided thought because block university--I'd 10 I conversation courses, stumbling now, have Which languages little there, there. of the this State. result you at it should other had--mind started I languages tackle was Are school "What these don't Pierson for get to had George, up then Janet, " 'Now, W but again "Should Pennsylvania better and Ed.D. you at can't George one to try, then required. E'm a I George, If [ S said® this Pierson. Ph.D.?" HB: S give embarrassed." to German, courses. i close to said and close. inclined George French to maybe I I'd finished seemed like here. And so years old when some French, I'd I a CECIL SAMUELSON #1 couplieiofayearSisof S Erench thought, some maybe Ph.D. French I'd two through it try German. I so I fine. just took the exam, just had these took and at the you really got truth So, oral exam. on a get through the oral and So this because had the when the I exam. the walked and turned T I Now, working I I I'm Well, what exam but I didn't as what to be, went to on--to at this anything there some well think with managed room was of them from the anything happened. you I final which ask recognized out do the that the tell and I'd for could in that's to type, heard administration understood which So around--later they on courses time had and committee. It I time I corker, got let's then written a and I thinking we I people, from department, Then come, wanted. being was now German, stupid came exam much time. the the thesis. they dozen had the could as of That anybody a kind we exam about this Ph.D. and other all it the T had took German. school rate, that. of thesis. any week. quarter the to Well, too 2And they well, spent to around I took thought, three So so I through got at about got or I'm hadn't I one I two then this. for and here, then I'd took vocational the Then high. French. up and thought junior try courses quarters, got French better language for "in of So we know, a CECIL SAMUELSON #1 reasonably know nice is that university I to Unbeknownst. the with president they of all offered this, me didn't situation and I got have one?" a Jjob where at I they of the Department with a in terminal A this? HB: Two-year CS: They in the me. So I back down So these sympathetic to I and better a Ph.D. take and one, it be or Ed. me at Psych. Are i the And you in they encourage offered there. doctor's wuniversity, need U. they familiar not. who people figured they type 12 didn't sorts of show that of students that was very much to the go to wanted who practical there up program think this a the time I'd be of up but promise, to they I'm No, terminal toward university. been a program? two-year a academic job program program? had oriented for that didn%¢ the had didn't "Even about the or Now was But didn't e working have thought sense to thinking, I particularly. U. then doesn't make require this school everything it didn't I interviewed mentioned school should considering a had the Why because being What you. vocational degree. also Nobody through at was [Laughter] job. Unbeknownst got experience. since things and so I had I'd be forth. CECIL SAMUELSON Anyhow, #1 my job this terminal it's kind it, I of I because the a aiming had slightly of--oh, well, university, wife would Well, at course, these Were they €S: Yes, these HB: Who CS: Well, was when I HB: So he €S: Yeah. HB: So even I guess got was it I it my a was of your in a back on matter of about it group was unhappy, which and at the and the gatherings. this. ed. again, My job, of psych. and to I tried to do. then? students. time [Roy] a girls' students, hiring in D. the department? Willey. He was chair you? reporting program that though As to enjoyed students, R. think and degree. part basically was classes that I girls these undergraduate at as But, feelings the at psych. job. belonged quite terminal chair me ed. university. of undergraduate the the to Janet teach were took negative about to between apparently rate, was HB: he talk any the one and I thing at of split So curious husband counsel was program. wasn't fact, then was the to was allied that I department, with the department. CS: oh yeah. to--well, I never that considered isn't quite Blaesser? 13 true. Did was you responsible know Bill CECIL HB: €S: SAMUELSON I knew of name very Well, he our him, yes. Yeah, ESi So, was he the was what to be dean psych. a HB: So they ES's Well, to I he I but but was thinking was the his went there, to come. I me of dean in myself when his of a involvement certain with I being think in students that in ed. and it wasn't amount asking of to they salary. then next year we'll do there, and the next year they were come. reluctance, and I basically program? effect, was "You And I and well, take this better." Well, do didn't I any quit. You CS: Well, I State Director HB: Okay. That's wifih ES: Yeah. That's the it and quit, Did of dice!" "No huh. them, HB: year. also consider then it So was complex. I told remember he didn't else, when better. I department. say, an salary, HB: to the had guess a and recall. anybody but showing for up, students, with because little inviting went came of I started too, was was I it, as allied allied about I vividly. department, HB: I #1 at was state you state board. know Yes. 14 time that I became Services. Guidance the that Don board And Orton? now. so I worked at that CECIL €S SAMUELSON Well, at #1 Don that Orton time. had made a program And money Dean of that time at available for the to College the the Now, university kind fix. with campus. they federal didn't a who in vocational were First, be anyone in at they who was this needed acceptable on the had rehabilitation Who establish of someone standards. have government to they would needed experience the They Ph.D. Then practical meet a of Education federal training counselors. in of universities rehabilitation someone HB: was some that would there? the Department of Ed. Psych. CS: They the didn't only one. meeting sought really have down me out, and he several Finally, he appealed thought maybe people. And I'd worked worked six several years in the 15 to an my in down me with state job. I interested, and there and the to these them. Orton the state. obligation was about the on about Don that mouth work I education and take wasn't to years had I strongly felt me in him an community. attended, times, me I the we invited the contacted had in I taste liked I that told I I even remember, sour and that I Price a university, besides So in had anyone But here. up of--he basis the disabled things. You department. he See, know, And I'd so I CECIL SAMUELSON #1 decided, well, I'll went back was responsible to the rehabilitation HB: So that €S Yeah. maitEerM was from these CS: Partly from the was got That's right. doing we still so I and I vocational then that of share of the came. some of As a ‘of @ these my own salary funds. And, I that contact sponsoring time had I was rehabilitation were accepted in course, contact the had work on because deal I in that felt my capacity at some people of the state in my who these in downtown, handicapped. at 16 was the acquainted And I with got program. many program. like agencies had down for with federal known then today. to that to since--I I went of had with this. who continued have I something. when good that doing agency them of money students enjoyed any long now, So stipend. And university a try. program? Isure' federal grant that the had a And a the and really Psych. that federal think this. years, I a that. program That of "!mienot I from Ed. it beginning say, was but Partly give training the you details, paid of the really fact ) HB: €St for there ot and Department would And back counselors. was department, go the opinion, were people with I for some of vocational they were CECIL SAMUELSON all top and I that people. I Miami #1 Not only nice enjoyed it. They had thought were and who other went federal people all the the country them are all HB: So was an CS: Yes, guess or I Down must and had we'd I the universities Merrill HB: He's the CS: That's that the these but all and it. that. Then, in of me, for a also around period on you. for oh, twelve sabbatical. Mexico, I and We we our sabbatical. government authorities also and responsibilities. such So chairman. department was only as rehabilitation for had such got Mexico visit people ours. program interest to that now to enjoyed I the universities enjoyed in an go would I Chicago, respect, people then responsibility Reed I and I great challenging years, had chair? course, approved. I'd So right. application. been and worked that there people, And people, meetings York, not similar by have and were numerous directed was, who of the New country. had programs top really had--Janet I exciting, fourteen decided in being the top various in meetings whom with these it for people were it these in but these significant places to people, as I you had And this discussed you Kknow done then 157, this, I and have the suggested with Reed, and, submit an application had to that Blair Stone CECIL SAMUELSON take #1 over the program, which suggested very to good enough leadership he of did. Reed man, me he rehabilitation And keep as in of you then Blair know. that when on I program I the counseling got back, job. thought I Blair's they anyhow after for building had all a had those years. HB: €S [You were] what it For responsible, me Did it you that was have you I may had At ES: Orlando you It's been did Then all I think our to of and can names leaders good who them of of And them. was doing period their mark and time or made think as their of? offhand, in of but they rehabilitation program. a influenced it that field you the of and made the that through years years many Blair really since that people was one. were I've But way. there top people. even thought this. Blair you that any Many number a When up to. during into can't one was were about CS: I came least HB:S HB: out Have such. settings students went time, respond remember numerous. were exciting could some contribution. We an that counselors ESis it was. something HB: anyway, have just took change over, what a full-time of responsibility then? became 18 faculty member, and my CECIL SAMUELSON job HB: was So #1 teaching. you were doing some rehabilitation course teaching? CSe Yeah. We basic rehabilitation which was federal to have determined placements in ESis Internship. And HB: Supervising that, then. CS: I these for myself I and very well, one still have Well, a in content connection that. Then students ably, the with we had would a of the these go my out I general in a over many years--well, education preogramaBut had what it meant basically But the of thing, and Blair ultimately-- know whether program up they there. program. section SthenWafter amounted didn't budget, Then don't education have really the sort opinion. thing, I figuring alills*that in So completely. it, still general time. it of snand other long from parts applyinagiforasit €S essential was continued-- off administrative They one internship? continued HB: courses, settings. Like did us which of the taught HB: cut couple by I rehabilitations an a course, government. field the used to a from that I involved get out counseling was 19 that first the I ‘of this of the terminal that, section would had I I it. register still What these CECIL SAMUELSON people #1 at registration HB: Act maybe CS: Yeah, and long time. too as an advisor I kept that general Then when the involved--you HB: Yeah. CS: Syd Angleman told Syd I HB: So So the as a in just for knew was of full-time of all and the your so of for program size all a got just the relieved of all the department was you described, the remember that You know Paul him, too, this in touch of it. my I on was as and time in doing, this, I tenure person section Angleman. concentrate about balance education rehabilitation charge program, that's them. Syd better rehabilitation that. time-- teaching. €S:= Yeah. HB:: Did you take was the circumstance, ESic it? too. peculiar, of kind That's Yeah. wasn't I As retirement? early an Hansen? HB: I've month. @Sis with him. I've known of was fact, been interviewing be trying for two Hansen for a to get time. As years Right. Paul year the working on some of gather to going I'm Yeah. his the I that was doctor's data 20 down long down thesis, there. at a Granite and But I matter High helped Janet went he him to CECIL SAMUELSON school #1 with him, used to drop by just ask him how one day he students paper care know two or It didn't Well, to some the at Probably CS: And He money of at the Tech., or rate, I the last of down school was it. much. went vocational it but your very time whatever term of out cared One the bad, any went students background. think at called he now retired know, "You said, and I as did when been the he had and was he So age. my about was had there, was I when there who Wellard Don with I make I was telling me about as working." work? Well, I system, with kind remember this any and their if I Tech. instructor it, Yeah. See, Trade talking retired. Why a like at I in not So while don't know but zest function Trade welding much me just Lake was about the It's don't a forth. turn envelope." I in I They'll mean. to so years. time. HB: I know, years social that "You deteriorated, is Salt to me, for once and an seem this every were I three him things on have known office anymore. what students I've his said written you and had and Social really this more so thinking got Security what started and 2 the school the it. I checked retirement system, about state thinking. my in years thirty-five than I is CECIL SAMUELSON and I And so discovered I Janet. of I had of so matter other it's end staff of nice the for someone else. But a when make I think Claude year, it that got It it about that I'd I'm sure You know, makes room go, see to hard is sure was delighted. time both which leaves. with to had Grant about were the to me. over back apparently I with it both times somebody of lot a went told members always friend I true talked retire. year. the of And I'd about I we couple decided be it. fact, right. the at a it I of retire HB: a agencies January would believe gotten right, that couldn't As these the #1 though. CSs: had asked counselor, just Price they didn't started doing that, and did quite a with. So three years. church to And keep And guess church--I HB: cases some activity. me still I maybe So, you I've people in of as work monkey to about for this the for with involved had a deal to that been you've know, like did bit For basis one-day-a-week a on and there down the of with I come to me rehabilitation the thing, one example, do. to wanted I that things other some had I But sixty-two. was I when retired I early. retired I So enough to do as it going. find some professional 22 involvement CECIL SAMUELSON #1 sounds. €S Yeah, and three! years. '84 then and over around a E5i No. HB: Written, €S: Not hardly HB: Too many €Si Too see, I summers Germany. Jan and her deal. places you let's lived two took So so, Jan last good HB: daughter the they other And '85; to then our could us Their in Europe. use your German not oral, huh? it Janet was France, and Germany guess family home through in in '83, I went traveled Stuttgart, Italy, your was and had for and but various French. [laughter] but anyway. years many first years. place. French. by London. He's private year artificial three times I can in School an the knew happened Medical name of that read a that when that he to Kent went him, and the knee. And so Kent year. He does 23 two over surgery to do there goes back surgery Kent at the further home there them of orthopedic whose of the son known hospital in amount our went Freeman the well certain orthopedic Mike attached a it internationally practice. with never residency with surgeon I just his University passed. French, It finished study had was and and has a spent a invented there and in then two an or goes CECIL SAMUELSON back and #1 checks there just a to that Kent is there all went on week to we channel England They knew HB: Had a ESs Janet's all royal father go London, Jan HB: Tracing CS: Yeah. her time family and year that in various Kent that we addition to went and lived places and was leading they've first craft in Diane Scotland. us, but on the across the in we London. I Diane with to up went father had of her another year time her some where cemetery and finished and where place the Kent after Janet and the buried. I been travel department, and what all. kind 24 of the to go on heavy on with the Okay, of saying I'm all Well, you most wanted always hanging for rich spent We Italy. to Then experience. delightful gondolas. not been I'm he England. born Neil Venice. has It's the a the canals, the the royal found down in what London; decided met fact, roots. Just there so hover with and were went in found forebears Well, of places. there and lived we a was and Scotland And and the time couldn't we took matter know through continent, a ago. Diane time. trips As two Germany the to it. or and this over taking HB: up our Let support those is that heads. experiences me did ask you you with as to receive? CECIL SAMUELSON How did you worked have They thing could. they you raise and so the machine, They CS: That's forth. CS: I think was back the that wasn't the on is was Then in more federal just I know conflicts little you, very cog I in wasn't There was no And so the all the how time. you and type of University of similar a were with program, had feel much. worked I productive and nationally? accepted. 25 a every develop. to people others people the with really one office did no doing. was than had experience. conflict. any any I They about honest perceived well federal better. here I the thinktkind®ef " reflects think but rehabilitation have you was it invited in one. appreciated pleasant nationally do I I with the program Utah's you last nice in be reign Which to very cause to free you mentioned a anything right. program, to enough as Now, those the supportive. course, and with any very Just Of absolutely just was with, for questions experiences my begin were some gave HB: to guess, asked complaint. important HB: Willey I administrators, days. Couldn't conflict the Claude, then rehab. the perceive with? Reed, eSa #1 of what felt As matter a occasion to of take rehabilitation you're that the thinking fact, a which on. university I job I I was CECIL SAMUELSON #1 supportive of federal the people program, are as very it was. happy And with I think what was the done here. [END HB: You presumably guess, at became pretty and Cs: or much andial S people of ONE] papers once discussion oriented in a while, symposia, to to these got me like state? In have because that Well, we you did what got so you do least they had a I people were aware reputation we programs which scattered came from most of the the other about a good as you that is, major a meetings year, so in life. time my or did an of we back. The of the people? Did confines recruitment was I'm together- reflect the that got us,"” they just existing come program worthwhile? a in all the around. were 26 but university There I like were program as places, people times recruitment university was was We these beyond words, were in of people, three that draw course, of That much "all around. together at it say university enjoyed other to 'Td universities acquainted. program, you the the problems well Sounds ofus=—=when all from -seemed €S presented panels thinking HB: SIDE doing. Y¥es, i on OF were suppose, from--not just other all literature people as Salt I who recall, Lake, but CECIL SAMUELSON from HB: #1 this The area. Intermountain area probably, the Rocky Mountain area. ESs There was no typically had to other be inquiring no great a pool €S: Yeah. I guess least of in you it. of that all of I recall, students I sent who recall, We would there was students. then? honesty the any as coverage. as have Also, years we I to was remember that associated with stipends this this need that were obviously wasn't the we, might there and 1limit applicants program There that about during students, to brochure shortage Quite the a schools HB: at effort was when I a went available great and to attraction. I guess when went. HB: That €S And would as was it for the those HB: In CS: That was I be an inducement. about two-year it was a $1,620 for the recall, second years first program. and year, think I $1,800 year. that pretty pretty was good. healthy. would That student a enable to survive. HB: How many did you admissions-wise? stipends take per year--I you Were then? 24/ mean limited in the based program on the CECIL €Ss SAMUELSON Well, #1 no. Let students, limit as the stipends. going not most recall, size of say I some, them the suppose that schools who that I were other it had way. class we Most of the we did not number of but to the typically had--oh, or two or can't recall the exact Now, this was had such programs. universities people who were these geographically that interested stipends was and were number, to to but true would go situated who was one stipends. three I maybe on had this stipends, the think stipends. of all answer I Now, to on me of I contact a school meet their interests. HB: ILet me see one or two there were least a if €Sie My HB: €SS was master's social in was of social it's in I about a nail down exam, that dozen Dbeyond and in degree at or your psych. ed. took You work. guess. graduate the oral social in to It school. was not in work. It Well, wasn't master's, a the Was you your over number in--it with people of committee. as back mentioned You goodly work social go number a it was could points. supervisory or I I the with school graduate the major emphasis work? guess, important I was to you trying to think can go dig I 28 what the-- it read. If CECIL HB: SAMUELSON Well, if €S it's on see, the my vita s HB: C.SJWe CSe Certificate of think, was graduate out. We can get it from the vita Social that Work. regular school. Ands indicates I have a B.S., an master's, I W. "andsasc MaSS, vita. there. on it's You #1 the wuniversity But my' But as I say, Ph.Dx, I academic think that was that meeting I program, could in dig it educational psychology. HB: Willey CS: Yeah. HB: Do that making Well, HB: Presumably, there have might you? "Yes, say, to the from someone been guess, I administration, central to offer course. of there, was Angleman Syd no. €S:: in instrumental an tendering and decision time? that at were that others remember you in presumably was we're supportive." you CS: Yeah. Did HB: Yeah, from know Smith? Dasil He was administration. educational there. He sat in on that? Yes. At least So that agenda there were a unbeknownst over and beyond from few just 29 college though, you, to the the oral they exam. primarily. had this CECIL CS: HB: SAMUELSON Yeah. #1 See, Frank Sorenson was You some had was there, of course, and Garth there. of when I came and, of course, now Jex the senior like Frank Jex, Claude Grant and June. That in, retires come faculty, as and remember Phelon Reed would I Melouf, Merrill. be when Claude he retires officially. ESh Incidentally, HB: He's how doing fairly unfortunately. like CS: HB: I to didn't think He was at Of course, seem HB: he'll to he know, to has be he still has healthy and day commented he's but to watch moments strong as he'd what gone I mean HB2 Well, I was just He's from to the get thinking 30 he him. has retirement. He he has great had this I saw He a what had Well, know I quarter. phased himself and CS: spring I problem resolved yesterday. his his haven't that well. before curious. and who teaching good, still don't day on years, know too teach it's and was office fairly Yeah, as other Claude course years but not the the himself, You doing? well, He's somebody looked Cs: he be. met one is to pace deal. problem hear, they for don't is. exams and tests and they could just problem. you on that that. maybe you CECIL SAMUELSON share a 1little because that it of it, I get their guess, Of course, Sorenson the And UCLA a my then €SS And HB: A CS: Very compatible went on was a days, Reed each other, folk to you don't of those there, Garth practically think that is one time. We had that of the summer so forth. and to down job a at Frank were there Jack and Merrill, NYU. NYU. Yes, NYU. gave left, But back gone up take went. he in individuals. part to tightly-knit very group. group. people a very to those at Reed had Claude He close-knit was of if courses leave Malouf, HB: was it lot And I exam the Phelon it fact, all wherever gone of finished to a he latter or had but oral had and started the Garth Witherspoon. with in then Jez, Ph.D. stability perceptions be first matter think had I to people nucleus department. own these real brought chairman, As I I my had exam like a its that the of was it your was was we after in when immediately. reason gave sharing it there appeal degrees what perception like that the just years, your seemed department mind €S #1 people. were congenial Merrill and so And group. I often 3t of it was But added. and then, I remember didn't we live would as time good. This course, very in those too ride far to early from school CECIL SAMUELSON #1 together. the I've always brightest was some men a question, HB: He had E€Sis He really a HB: CSis could each other's this sort, Wasn't there years? At bowling got used They bowl, but well along or weekly to it and about ask many him talk I Phelon, in But him. and group tightly-knit we'd in--well, to go of something or dinner of type And about on. subjects. intense very compatible. started that in those and Reed something, or back and Frank that came he when later I'd draw very gather I 1least resolve to league bowling a to knowledge engage Very, know. you of there would pleasant. have and homes if he a a to used We car, one and talk was it years the anything you tell to of very but know, you And trying back, was Frank course, met. was U. he And pleasant. didn't sit pool early Yeah. just or those go in reservoir need Claude, I'd him of don't very got Reed ever was U. to did. as guy, I that I the of Then, I've that when then way the all that problem academically, thought used to thereabouts. that. do was felt I'm very a they a not bowler, congenial were a group. scholarly and I They group too. HB': It gave stability a At stability. there, didn't 32 least it? the department had a CECIL SAMUELSON E€Si3 It HB: Well, do you'd like Well, I CS: sure #1 did. It you share it's some of whom between know, and U. of one tell of him phone about -especially we I'm before any of the rest HB: That's good. €S Oh for think about know how yourself it you a spot is is. it The I that back to over the nor but as won, we us from report I- so, And had U. to games, score. the got just wife these you ahead, up my game ago, Wayne the and last points him at people, weeks few final it. get But the 33 to curious didn't Whether felt. in a this kids rivalry. career. a place of about could Friendly all at how my congenial Neither he sure and is talked over was youngest called the on Wayne, That's we know all couple was don't but And things. tabs called sure. a years? everything. I some energized game the as soon my BYU But I--get university this, residents other keeping were time see. some to with BYU observations covered graduates. Wayne's or your Wayne and a that, paid U. BYU for thoughts interesting. there U. situation. about of the are there other you've back nice respecting kind from He's a we've attention Duke. any think graduated just have to Naturally, much was aim thing at university me to the U. wanted you or a was it me, not. I good as I I don't to find didn't. CECIL SAMUELSON But HB: I #1 did. Everything seemed everything seemed out at one met all these that time. CS: At HB: Yeah, your felt I CS: build it, A about shaping very have to of keep class same course, there the attitude to the to actually you pointed individual it, I ago who tried to if I'd keep different But my general positive. year--well, university, and 34 of right place, and program a note to more they'll than once. each I When people point class feeling I the field, to got that go go but they at to quarter over about the started want almost the U, up the there's think two point the nice be or one to get on up would of focal moment class same it lot a remember ever thought a have have the make I a very the not the it. and to at yet may rehabilitation there, the and you did in teaching first among I wondered again. is though person launch teach remarkable ready the broadening arduous. As only anything, right experience I quite were years could It's is of career, way. the even you The made. I where is were start my I that guess, regards number that were went, opportunity. in you your requirements. wherein also form career you point shape to point, which, way to to go any CECIL SAMUELSON price. I of some to be think of with you a ES: But HB: you, to; do I was have been "The Committee on beautiful one, 1973 the CS: Yourdon't HB: Okay. you All some have year, As you make a lot of money. and I didn't expect like people know, do you the of I that's isn't any the of that? with there must contribution, a of tributes. honors, Governor's Utah Handicapped." That's Rehabilitation working surely 11975, Award, Employment Utah first way state, the in Key Golden that recognition of kind organizationally HB': saying. of handicapped, the and some follow you're But by you, ask to disabled give say. they going to not what money, with at true. going is to want wanted is it, part there this do right. the stay were not necessary. wasn't what to think me you me shower it don't they on everybody they'd incident if go that person treated attitude and but own that to place an inferred your have them the be they didn't I increase, So They Well, they for a not price. except think been university, wage through. has administrators the any Like there the at almost HB: #1 nice. very Association That's And a then Award. to-—— right. tribute So for figured I your service. 35 many they have must years of given dedicated CECIL SAMUELSON Cs: No, HB: It's CS: they #1 give nice to a lot of be on the it was We worked with nice people. all very worthwhile them many agencies I enjoyed Well, and end so-- and involved town. say, how "Well, they were You work is. with work just are there are that were You And it. in these and this program. a people And contact know out are in the you work nice of lot receiving and who people things, anyway." supportive. with these a involved in is that rehabilitation. HB: CS: The unfortunate the program a Even now CS: And HB: nice Good to ESis Yeah. of the all I occasionally meet to and serve healthy. That's Our with. work happy a as times. which one that. used I cordial contacts like such the is the seemed years are continue, about these former of this about agencies the relationships reminder reaction all after from people They a may you So dropped. be to aware, you're as it, of slated is now feeling, have HB: part is the things that with these other I people worked good. have I people, enjoyed and were with it just people. be program They with, and were and supportive contribute willing 36 to to do anxious to improve it. anything they could to CECIL SAMUELSON help #1 you, And I and think fortunate Well, in to remember HB: you an those that way. €S They were HB: Well, €S2 Yes, they HB: Well let I worked will They a will long it tapes come in, you know. And way to you back people. say. you what And then it will you will get two put it in we a go you'll to to to them, there if or do is that. you can and subsequently final version. binder and give you you for your [END OF TAPE] 37 a in You're edit. add other unedited an get I and because take on American the to the of copies nice thank back place takes extraneous, want you something or is what delete to you ask they'll which So that transcription, do how note. were good over turned be will tape you name with. came what process-wise indicate tell a can't were. me position very just work from then years good were It them. been I you just for just to and with. were They positive. had person, can't copy person. that you same have undesirable positive the we of Center. West state type that The this. doing this a those like this have you're with felt a They'll thank participation. you