Peter L. Goss, Salt Lake City, Utah: an interview by Everett L. Cooley

Transcript (113 pages) of interviews by Everett L. Cooley with Peter L. Goss, architecture professor at the University of Utah, on [April 4 snd 26 and May 2, 1988. This interview is no. 190 in the Everett L. Cooley Oral History Project, and tape nos. 758, 759, and 760. Accompanied by an autobiographical statement that accompanied his donation of photographs of student protests in Ohio, 1969-1970

Goss (b. 1943) recalls his background and education in the East, his tenure in the College of Architecture, University of Utah from 1970; his work in architectural preservation; his opinion of the Marriott Library; and his feelings about the local culture. Interviewer: Everett L. Cooley

e PETER L. GOSS R Autobiographical Statement Accompanying the donation of Photographs of Student Protests at Ohio University on October 15, 1969 Vietnam Moratorium & the Aftermath Of the Killing of Four Students at Kent State University Who Protested the Bombing of Cambodia, May 5, 6 & 7, 1970. By Peter L. Goss, Ph.D., January 2, 2005 I am the second son of Marion Henry Goss and George L.. Goss. I was born on Long Island in Mercy Hospital, Rockville Center, New York. At the time my parents were living in Baldwin, New York with my older brother Richard Henry Goss. After the birth of my younger brother George Barry Goss my parents moved to a wood frame house on Forest Avenue in Massapequa, New York. We moved from Forest Avenue to Cedar Shore Drive in a section of Massapequa called Harbour Green, south of Merrick Road about the time 1 finished grade school. I attended the seventh grade in the Grace Episcopal Annex across the street from our house on Cedar Shore Drive. i attended high school at the newly completed Massapequa High School from 1956-60. In the fall of 1960 I began college at Fairficld University, Fairficld, Conncecticut. I received my Bachelor’s of English from Fairfield in June 1964. It was during my tenure at Fairfield thatI became very interested in photography and was a photographer for the school newspaper and later the photo editor of the yearbook. During the summer of 1964 I spent about 6 weeks in Europe during which time I was accepted into the Peace Corps and I was also accepted into the Master’s of Library Science program at Syracuse University. Several days before my return to the United States the international edition of the Herald Tribune carried the story of the Tonkin Gulf incident (August 5, 1964), which was a precursor to the war in Vietnam. I chose to attend graduate school at Syracuse and completed my Master’s in June of 1966. While attending Syracuse I took my first formal photography courses in the Newhouse School of Journalism while pursuing my Master’s in Library Science. Prior to graduation I was accepted into a Ph.D. program in Comparative Arts at Ohio University. This program had been recommended to my by one of my photography professors, Tom Richards. Prof. Richards had previously received a degree in photography from Ohio University. In June of 1966 1 married my fellow graduate student in Library Science, Anne Sanden, before heading to Athens. Anne worked as a professional librarian in the catalogue department of the Chubb Library and many years later, after we had divorced, she returned to work in the health sciences area of Alden Library. She retired from the library four or five years ago and resides in Pomeroy, Ohio. I commenced my studies at Ohio University’s Department of Comparative Arts (under the direction of Dr. Tony Trisolini) in the fail of 1966 and held the position of research assistant to Jack Morrison, the new dean of the College of Fine Arts. My position involved working with Dcan Morrison on a grant from the Department of Education that led to the first institute for arts administration in the United States. The week long institute took place in the summer of 1967 at the Graduate Center of New York University. The teaching staff consisted of faculty members from the Harvard Business School. This was no doubt arranged or influenced by Ohio University President Vernon Alden, a former Associate Dean of the Harvard Business School. President Alden attended the opening of the institute. The field of arts administration would later develop into an academic discipline with a number of universities offering Masters degrees. From the fall of 1967 to the spring of 1970 I held the position of teaching fellow in the Department of Comparative Arts while pursuing my course work for the Ph. D. 1, unlike my fellow graduate students, did not have a studio degree in fine arts and as such was allowed to minor in photography. I took classes under professors Clarence White, Jr., Elizabeth Truxeli and Arnold Gassen. it was during this period that the activities of the anti-war movement intensified on campus and I decided to document some of these activities. The student body of Ohic Uriversity was liberal during this period and consisted was especially true of the students in the College of Fine Arts and some other colleges on campus. Campus dress also reflected these liberal attitudes and I suppose today a number of the most liberal students would be labeled “hippies” what ever that term means. We were in contrast to the student body of Ohio’s “cow coliege,” Ohio State University. Students at that institution still wore Bass Weejans, blazers and button down coliar shirts. As 1 recollect little campus unrest happened at OSU, perhaps because it was so close to Ohic’s capitol. Most of thc campus unrest happened in the state institutions far from Columbus. I was personally opposed to the war and maintained a 10 year-long “2S” or student deferment from 1960 when T entered Fairfield University until June 1970 when 1 left Ohio University. The first two rolls of Kodak Tri-x film (camera used was a Nikon F with various lenses) were taken on October 15, 1969, the date of the national Vietnam Moratorium. This nationwide event was reportedly the largest demonstration in United States. BBC News reported that it was estimated that two million people took part in this event. My first roll of film show students signing petitions on the green, marching on Court St., flashing peace signs, carrying placards, wearing black armbands and painting protest signs. Roll 2 shows gatherings on campus and some students listening to speeches. The remaining four rolis of Tri-x were taken eight months later on May 5, 6, & 7, 1970. The first two rolls were taken one day after the shooting of four students at Kent State University. Roll 1 shows students camping cut on the lawns on the main part of the campus. Speeches were made, classes were moved outside, a strike was being encouraged by students. Discussions regarding the war were held in lieu of class subjects. Students were also in shock over the events at O U’s sister institution Kent State University. As | went about documenting the scene a number of professors and some students accused me or asked me if 1 was shooting for the FBI. Rumors were being spread that the work of staff photographers at Athens newspaper were being reviewed by law enforcement officials to determine who were the “troublemakers.” Roll 1A neg # 1 shows the front page of thc May 5, 1970 cdition of The Plain Dealer with photographs of the shootings at Kent State. Neg. #’s 24-36 show a major indoor demonstration. I cannot remember who the African-American speaker was, but he looks very much like the Life Magazine photographer Gordon Parks! The student newspaper if it was still being published may have covered this event. Neg. #33 shows O U President Claude Sowle Roll 2 was shot on Wed. May 6, 1970 and shows various activities taking place including “support the strike” signs, a map for the parade “March Against Murder” and again students in sleeping bags on the green. Neg, # 15 shows an instructor and two students watching a TV monitor (this was most likely a televised course similar to the fine arts courses I taught as a teaching fellow) Roll 3 contains a number of signs posted on the green and various groups which may have been classes being heid outside. Neg. # 19 looks like several facuity and students in a discussion. Neg # 17 & 18 shows a table with a sign “National Petition to get out of Cambodia.” African-American students are assembled in Neg. # 5 and © and appear to be watching the march. Several signs posted in business and I cannot tell what their message is unless the negative is enlarged. As activities and the strike intensified teachers were instructed to try and hold classes even if it meant discussing what was taking place locally, statewide and nationally in the hopes of defusing an already tense situation. President Sowle tried awtully hard to keep the institution open and aimost succeeded. I cannot remember how many days beyond Kent State the university remained open, however towards the end a number of buildings were fire-bombed and a new buiiding not yet turned over to OU suffered a fair amount of damage. The officc of the Department of Comparative Arts was in a white frame house across the parking lot from Siegfried Hall. A Molotov cocktail was thrown at it but as I recall someone was able to put it out before any damage occurred. As a result the graduate students decided to keep a 24 hour watch inside the building. T believe my shift was something like 3-6 AM. I was living in The Plains at the time and overslept when I woke up sometime after 3 AM I hoped into my car and drove into Athens. I turned on the radio and as I crested the hill heading into town I heard that President Sowle had shut down OU and a state of emergency had been declared, All roads leading into Athens had been secured by the Ohio National Guard. As I was listening to the broadcast I saw troop truck across the road blocking traffic and armed National Guardsmen turning incoming traffic around. Students were given so many hours to leave the campus. 1 believe it was either four or eight hours. They were not aliowed to pack up their dorm rooms. They were abie to return a week or two latter and claim their belongings. Exams were also cancelled. The next day OU faculty and staff were allowed to enter the university. National guardsmen with rifles armed with bayenets were posted about every 50 feet on the main street (Court St.?). On campus the entrances to all buildings were manned by armed National Guardsmen. A faint smell of tear gas could still be detected in the streets and alleys in town. Apparently students would leave the green in the evening and march down Court Street. They were met by police and sheriff’s deputies and driven back to the sate haven of the green. This apparently went on for a number of nights, each night the crowd grew bigger and despite the tear gas lobbed by iaw enforcement they were undermanned and eveniually they appealed to the OU administration to do something. I had complcted my coursc work for the Ph. D. in the spring of 1970. I could have continued as teaching fellow while working on my dissertation, but decided to look for a teaching position. I interviewed for several faculty positions in Ohio as well as the Department of Architecture at the University of Utah. It so happened that a fellow graduate student of Dr. Trisolini’s by the name of Boyer Jarvis was the Associate Vice President of Academic Affairs at the University of Utah. I was interviewed twice; once by Dr. Jarvis and the other by the Department of Architecture chair, Robert L. Bliss. The University of Utah offered me a position as a tenure track assistant professor of architectural history and I accepted their offer start fall quarter 1970. My dissertation was under the direction of Dr. Herbert White, an architect and musicologist, and the senior member of the Department of Comparative Arts. My topic was “Olana” the Persian revivai villa and estate of the Hudson River School painter, Frederic Edwin Church. The building and its contents had been rescued from auction in 1969 and donated to the State of New Y ork. The dissertation inciuded my two major fields of art and architectural history. I spent the summer of 1970 completing my research at @lana that was underwritten by the State of New York. Their interest was to simply receive a copy of my dissertation since there was no comprehensive history of Olana and its park-like grounds. Due to my teaching duties that included a lecture class of over 400 students each guarterI was unable to finish my dissertation until the summer of 1973. 1 have spent my entire academic career at the University of Utah. I received a Fuibright Senior Research Grant in 1976-77 and spent a year in Romania researching the vernacuiar architecture of the country’s various ethnic groups. In 1977 i was promoted to associate professor with tenure and in 1989 was promoted to full professor (see my C, V.). A portion of my carccr was spent in administration first as Associatc Dean of Undergraduate Studies, then as Director of the Center for Architectural Studies and most recently as Associate Vice President for Scholarly and Creative Activities. I returned fulltime to the College of Architecture + Planning in 2004. In fall semester 2004T taught my first photography class in addition to my architectural history classes. BETEROINGOS'S Salt Lake An Everett City, interview Everett L. Cooley Oral L. Tape April No. 4, 26; University Lake By Cooley 758, Marriott Salt Utah History 759 May 760 2, 1988 Library of City, Utah Utah Project —— T . EEQ) UNIVEIKOl A iN[ TA AT UNIVERSITY Y LIBRARIES MARRIOTT LIBRARY 1 EVERETT SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH 84112 L. COOLEY ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION Date I willingly l9,§_Z to scholarly contribute the my Library testimony of the recorded on University of 7/’5/’ &Z/a2s! Utan 5 to gg 24 be ¥ used for purposes. =l Open and Usaple usable with after the my following =I review. restrictions: )o '/f.jS /{:’ " /,Y g/ 7 / e / / ; N ’/,’/7 i Interviewee ‘—.6 e -s /é/)"{c'n///.v e Interviewer < e(&= /i? 7 ";'3;3~£2 / /Facf 7 27 Table April Tape 4, i#1: RS U PensSonalWHESEORY Vo o 2 s FeaehensNofIinflinence . Childhood Academic Attending Fairfield GraduatelmSeneolin i Teacning at the University Funding of for State 26, L e e e s e e 5 e e s e 5 8 s o0 . i g o o v ol s o . e . University the . e . e w5 . . e e e . University Utan's Architecture S Interests PiissortatlontTOpile Tape Contents 1988 EamitityNHITS EORRE April of s of o . = Town s Utan . Architecture Arcnitecture Scnool's - Faculty School and at Gown tne U Relationship 1988 #2: of Historic Utah's American Historic Buildings Preservation of Arcnitectual Preservation 52 Committee 60 Architecture Courses EnviiconmentailfArchiiEecturie ArcnittectNaAlNMEIEMEISMSET Arcnitecture 46 Preservation Classes at v o the . 0 at o 6 o & tne . o ¢ 5 University 63 U . & . o of . e . 66 o 69 Utah 15 Opinions May Tape 5, on Marriott Library . 81 . 1988 #3: Academic Major the and Personal Achievements Personal Commentary . Freedom & Disappointments on tnhe State « + in of at the U 83 85 « Ot life Utan's population 98 RO W SR RESEN TR RV T EWING PETER L. GOSS, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF ARCHITECTURE, UNIVERSITY OF UTAH, AND THIS IS RPARTISSOESRHESCGOQLEYS ORALHLSTORY PROJECT AND WE'RE RECORDING IN THE ECCLES ROOM OF THE MARRIOTT LIBRARY. TODAYSTSERHENARRILE S5/ & 1988 [ TAPE: #11 EG: Peter, let's about your sometning PG: I York, rand was of there PG: born and off What about York went to svours Something of My was He commuted back Railroad to is I'm a younger My mother year is a of when 7, Long us something you 1943 were in Island. or born, about out on high Baldwin, Shortly two--my town your I moved twenty-eight Island. scnool New after parents Long I there to miles grew up before I an and in didi your What's thne father do? lower in tne New so each on five child. partner who day father in I in is Telephone Manhattan, Manhattan. are York downtown forth originally and What executive worked brother activities? background? middle senior family fami lly? There the family on City, your Company. bfothers. March a tell college. siiizesio i and you background? througnh some father on out wnhicn New went having family that!s Massapequa EC: your born--maybe east by beginnings--where, of Okay. was begin a in came were I the have Long Island have two other older Chicago banking from the family--three an New born he brother law in firm New York England. in boys who and a City. Both Worcester my ’ PETER L. GOSS #1 Massachusetts. My the company telephone teacning phone company moved my on E€: jobs Long Is father were brought during paying were mother was down, the very paying and high. tnhen to work Depression little quite and down they when jobs He had in in the eventually their family Island. there anything experiences in memorable New York tnat in you your care family to comment about? BG: Well, was I tnink curious uncles and miles away funny on summer that got the about up greowing seven at included dancer. younger New York we was with those His of little brother. and children in see We the were had art 2 The is the my Eglevsky, the the and same had kind during other thnat the always hundred was them good and at some fortune as oppoertunity cultural I to scene kids of that famous age ne night. neighbornood the the father morning than of thing my fifteen different had Andre in two it saw seven [ children So I friends were time. seven, a my ours only o'clock until things. all distinctly Ngrewtuptiwith. “up and Christmas train schedule B cause at home of that around quite So Enati fact remember get couple Massachusetts. nolidays maybe a the in didn't our are relatives or I there ballet and go by my into the BETER Es GASS #1 Egifelv sy faniliy S who " brought brought us into activity, well York as father particularly usually tried but EG: as New at Wnat and to least about is play your City our to one play a in New year the year, in. My and so we not more, City. schools memorable us if York and cultural theatre, Public anything ballet bringing the a the enjoy parents schools? there te liked attend one us you attended tnere that you remember? PG: Well, and yes. of We moved course started almost the I buildings buildings. So and high high it patterns. So tnis to districts schools went What off were all to about be of pretty the the your way up and the a were 70,000 tnrough crowded in brand grammar in sort of grew up people in out. high new school between building, schooels spread family an into new in we '40s, had building, were the well We new of late Massapequa between that tne moved was we village Some a there village it. we like between unincorporated center until high in that district. there'd in returned, remember seemed and everywhere had school temporary junior Massapequa vets growing. instant junior EC: to but holding in was an and nhad no the It school was school public until university. hobbies 3 or interests during your I PETER L. GOSS grade PG We #1 school lived was very about a to the quarter of a summers sense. My parents a of the in yacht older, got more boat water skiing albioiut tennis tre wintertime. liked. in tnat and coaches He We high club, The all moved a in sort I yacht a my nad to so the in black and been one u grew Bay. we a We got lot hign a of him. I pnotographny. during of Jjunior and was My that to the high well activities choir, began lacrosse one my you kind? team scnool witn Did was of acappella white where I like coach now. interest the and rifle organizations right around any sports other mind that all did of few my a and then we so in club Soutn and sports in working slipped bay, acktiviities? the and Amityville, Great Bay thning. team included the brother the or rifle house, centered time, of Soutn sailboating managed enjoyed school and and toe As involved then on town, sicheol was lived sailboating, point Great our were on theatricals and teachers. in s your in that The they? from us, nunting one occasionally football for located. duck and participate I was at mile neighboring interested motor Wiatat team were water. belonged the did What really events club we we swim social activities scnool? close the kinds PG: high during provided EGi: and science kind of develop an PETER EC: L. GOSS i#1 Are there wno had any a profound Yes, I think a Any PG: Can't had had freshman and classes. My EC: the probably that's ASERREIE SIS Cialgie i had one we voin diiidM and coach too. him remember the Snfaivie. Sy omir and I But came then where way, the interest. and I tnink I along studies brother younger is Alex mind? your school social sopnomore calming very years. the grader, high in again him with contact about like good a primary seventh a as the around. teachers my wasn't coach like specifically. else science good Baldwin Al in out a came and through kids science although he teacher anyone of couple a the and looked had He trouble. stands remember and studies looked and good that else one EE#: recall football social of seen, when of lot a out nelped you life the Baldwin [laugh] and guy great that your was Alex of people on effect upon who ever worth pounds 350 level professor a was you've dog meanest fellow Baldwin. Alex history, that took? this coach rifle and at influence life your direction PG: teachers in taught he history think I most. "miind sielt on architecture? Didn't PG No. EC: What PG Probably were the have your main because of slightest idea. interests? the 5 Sputnik era, engineering was PETER L. GE@SS: being Our #1 forced high down school EC: PG: background general University at in that. met Watiithe N yachit wno was liberal time 2, 000F going arts there off college were students. run by Jesuit tne students. idea 6 of My going liberal from Clark w= nigrt older Fairfield Fairfield. 1,200 The lyears was Order high to what in “than a and school a I that friend school nign several cliub), to a nad also science in thought I so Massachusetts, We graduated I but my bachelor's a one at thinking began I been had fatner My school, and background, getting high engineering, about So chosen? arcnitecture about in school from graduated I math of tnat was why and background. university the to math in away me move My upper the into moved went thinking directions year, junior engineering of mediocre. was area. arts to kind strong a nave didn't tended 1960 been had I time. and thninking been had I and look In question. Good also situation. older and was There Italian. it Latin Sputnik University, Fairfield program, French, Spanish, 1960, about in you, Now language German. ‘this any from science studied and school, nhign of good I sophomere grew I so my by in as proclivities very been ausier of agiainMbeic years a have coming Russian throats, German, even may there and had offered sehool our I, small that was smaller PETER L. GOSS #1 setting in addition indvabeaut i ful, Connecticut two o0ld that wnich was urban in a YorluC it weres still to EE: Were a they EGCs B@G': arts had G.P.A. So It not Nok LEawas been bachelor's EGh: only I it was together-to Worcester city, much that I miles was applied more saw from to New @ activities my to for Fairfield high were went Sound--it ‘euwltural Se I in off fifty of available up choice several to other off unheard but I enough based to you, or of? wouldn't to be on were say able need to and that my qualify also high Fairfield. co-educational? a2 men's co-educational it's going located County joined advantage step. scholarships They was schools. like were those. was were altnougn place academics for other ‘deor scholarships at No, our Island been viisonthetepportunity at it industrialized The you Long than an that Fairfield had more of that liberal they PG: moree Fairfield small 1in that much was fact overlooked character. Fairfield go me the area estates interested to and quite of Any particular some direction scnools now at has that time, about 3,800 successful English at professor and help? 7 in growing. but ithis now students. So I pursued who gave a Fairfield. you remember you RETER BGEa LS GASSH WIS S Sl S of sort That literature. One their of schoelarly and: made I So courses. because very We years.of flour taught One period. Shakespearean American English. taugnt "peoeple Ehelse thnem. Fatner a and Reddy Fatnher a was there to experience. educational interesting exposure it so ones conservative very and the in had you that sucn were orientation there So eacn. bakckground yaillearned extiriemiel were were Jesuits, the of and strong professors required the all as some that say would well as philosopny very and theology syearsitoff feur mad® my of because department English a as up which of couple people--a several were imy . finst grown had degrees five or educated--four highly D isk I Jesuit my of All group. educated well is Order Jesuit the and Catholic, Ttilss education. Catholic to introduction a it feinie 'S Eidlinig o ones liberal rather a for trat say I'd of both Bond; the taught contemporary at me interested Enatetimer. EC: taking Now witn PG I it was father fisland. was He involved quite had lloclalMiibirary, did you in twe directions. thinking of kind really to hope what do graduated? you once major, English an on been Wandith el the with library nadiibeleny 8 libraries choisien beoard by on for My Long our Gowviernor PETER L. GOSS #1 Rockefeller getting to sit involved interaction collections got of quite in an pushing was in a and all New York to one it. special with ear-full it pusning work on My reference the as a because he So. tninking going graduate You PG Wilthemy EC: And PG: Well, graduated tnen actually at been 1964 in from had always graduate soert and with sort father some on secondary didn't in there I a my been of -also getting the a idea of applied to level. Fairfield? senior number Syracuse. also been I I yearbook editor. We got hopped off to accepted until our and had Europe. the and late At the Peace was that I was Fairfield, newspaper out While from I and while yearbook information into 9 applied graduation. the received I programs, througnh after in year of But come Europe involved from I'd the during protograpnic Europe education my I English. scnool traveling that vin of was done was So what? acceptance and in in BiAi. accepted as in teacning library I'd terms degree possibly G these I I because also Snitlenestedydnistieachning. in reference consortium. probably nad was computer librarianship. side, fatner that and nigh-tech state about education committee I my Corps late was in father to go PETER L. GOSS #1 bluisitdisie hoioil's construction accepted what at not go during He said going do. And to to Peace be to because Syracuse. always decided ‘Peiru’ background you're always ins go Corps, there to summers. you'd I graduate better could school would opportunity, intention of getting a B With the intention of getting my M.L.S., yes. it the summer of 1964 Paris walked outside my Herald Tribune that knew aba at that war, ands continued that I Tnat was chat be the could So falluof Europe saw and if "6l your with T group any went that at European of were going part. of it. the I knew Corps. other of to way '64,. University. sojourn--did or I Corp summer Syracuse be So Peace Peace tne friends I I to route. to but was when incident. from nappen mignt Gulf off going I International that went of starfed little a I I and the we want not happen, up that work. mignht I degree? in Tonkin time drafted library pick the opportunity around to to L[ididn't school Incidently I graduate would the nhotel point my graduate ECi: in so school. the was out I With that been figure ECE add some I'd that graduate that had Also thought maybe for I'd what you was go the arrangement. PG Yean, during painting my classes senior and year, art 10 I history had taken classes. a series I got of very PETER L. GOSS turned my {1 on to art interest there and with as many She had gave me sell my could EE: the intention do to it "what Europe. I on a gift to or did." take 'a at the fare. That art as get in in aunt to go I was a had to when day, you and over and Bob museums and all went money--well, dollars the biecycle an fare, traveled looked could back I many from air three I as have living brought architecture. possibly car the two really didn't my of seeing round-trip get I I was sort in of as sell the it school trip to car that¥s You high The I and from buildings twomenths. there. history, so Central architecture. Bliss and nis wife did? PG NioB SIS € b otiligin S albioitit: interesting, with a days. Now did PG: Yea, I of figured traveled We I by didn't could Tt have cover a boyfriend that went witn a classmate of 1lit studying old major. more bludgeon in nim He French, Wwassortitof interested roommate a anytning to get and up I in 1 to and in and those you? as Sorbonne up my cultural. rail with college. ended ‘thorn nhim went mine, in v piretty ground. from ended class backpacks more have my liooctkiedi second you fact, French Wnloh I suitcase. I EE: but Mt hiaitl. going look had at was a summer with He to matter He that sidel. We a was just buildings a guy not about and PETER L. GOSS {1 architecture. traveled B to look So you So I together, finally but up usually on went him our and own we ways anything. at came back to accept Did University? Syracuse we gave your admittance Syracuse offer although I of kind any at a scholarsnip? PG: time, that at not No, second semester given a money borrowed some Student Defense education Act in undergrade going into if you'd been discounted fifty percent meant I years. A York average, Regent's $600 if state, a qualified you Scholarsnip year. $600 I'm sure tnat New York state a amount wnich is resident, 2 what for up now. you had so and But to have New in a over B called they you that schnool. Then pretty was five out good have a a free and automatic an was didn't You time that at then year they cost. my of maintained you teaching graduate to off went some pay relped relative I when off put be could which stipulation, the was that think National were you after until interest pay to have hnad I school, tuition. your of the and it. the on for Loan was I of one into looked really hadn't I everytning there, application late the of Because professors. was with assistantship research it I year second the or the was think money. to be regent's a BETER L. GASS #1 diploma from maintained a high B opportunity found as that went the from a private team. I I up take to free In take to see all talked some "Peir'building M3 facilities classes was me and over pretty a job totally there, interested to teach in the cameras. keys to the dark I said, get on room "That In into sounds like thne I did I found and me school was in a to of brand campus-=-fantastie now you on allowing the Wnen and to they can a I took recognized pnotography and 15 in used. return all undergraduate, professor in was had and school, at I down action, journalism students film want. could under thne editor and classes new photographny I library very football tnat professors of in a meant my school to That of The I but to that interesting. yearbook good to I job, comparison photograpny had that to journalism. "L. had in some I tremendous the the going had assistantsnip. interest I'd wanted easy a becoming I So institution an pictures. addition an with have have it. quite private to you get was that field pretty I later saidi'thiat: film football so and almost willing was well, institution I that. to experience Syracusie . the average continued ended and B+ small, large so or school, load gave use it pretty some tnat I they offered and unload you a any time good set deal of you to PETER L. GOSS me." So #1 I was the school and spending of Jjournalism EC: Did PG: I you in e ariing my to As considered. professors in a matter pnotograpny, Nt nils called WandWal who was ciontiemplating a bachelor's in I had but of Public Library library scnool. to of it "Well, said, ©of nad wno gone got a it's a therelis a they've but my of one was Arts, that, ySevien I frieigl Richards, Tom that master's. anotner Whfadini"c fact that about tninking get don't get use could T and and go is do I one worked had I was back getting Science, then and really ought Comparative 14 of M.L.S. colllection), s I iliittle school about had DENIE W ntivehy © I University, program I Gelleeo "Well, campus farits and So advantage. PRI i oz 'wias years I history said, someone I Levittown second wnat maybe my Vietnam I of the the got Library desk and art in degree new and tninking vienyScoodMtine gee, in concentration. of of in degree? that, in Science department. because master's first my thought, Ohie! of end over years also was I a REMBadNat £e end reference on between Giolcina time two Library one library in the area major and my your " nistory and English M.L.S. of of on photography that and art summer Master's Stipiat S tihiataiploii nit o marriage, a the toward ifntel lot complete again my librarianship a completed no doing and BETER L. GO@SS {1 Faasofnflexibility try? I to know down the I programs and But one to take that were painters Now did they studio type you nad the of one consider you or they get and go to into ge slightly a continue and classes, there So my in a was flexibility. of nistorian degree, to me me going from in accept people the imately it the In allowed and wanted who thney wanted to willing requirements. Pn.D. my to was they or allowed as classes programs. of eame’ T ¥Sinece Ph.D. studio a had that master's Science Most a apply in wanted were Library courses. should librariansnip. they it other and they dielgir elelaind. photograpny deal some than other give accepted History Art of you you was that sculptors angle, different I institutions program admrifniidsErations. EC: at of and ahEisitioiy great looked University, Ph.D. into addition and studio some don't person did area an Why the problems Master's my on I Master's Onio of me the it. of other in master's So also of a wanted case name there." program. dn your directed possibility as mostly activity art to architecture? PG: No, classes. a were there school I of art decided and history history art architecture 115 in architectural was Orio, my but area. it was history They nad gearing PETER L. GOSS down i#1 and State, was seventy-five architecture. was eventually By completed, the don't and PG what Columbus PG: Ohio people who history was and an United the then and while Ph.D. a to gone nad and musie in a was He siin e Leir biai e mentor. is Where University. it for? seventy-five is Onio a Sanidishiils Ohio about known University, and school system. very my the into come for had He was the who in State Onio is. south miles the is State of big schnool. aggie Yes. where then sitiosly. University Ornio EC: it is department, musicologist. England of program architect an Illinois in much know of Ohio school that history and and war became He big art-architecture from R the Ohio, in--one nistorian A e because department--that University. SN RESDE out had left White taugnt and architecture. I art the the te " Ohie camer the arcnitect after States I centered of architectural Canada time in Herbert practicing away arts was I Professor EC: the but charge in was S miles comparative department phased It strong then has a I believe, was being very English good started absorbed creative department, 16 and off into as the a private state's writing program, strong history PETER" Lo GASS" #1 department. It academically there, was it rather was stronger always than Onhio interesting considered State which because while was the I was "aggie" school. EC: However Ohio science PG Yes, university yes. of And the but started the going they summer of '66 I so he Dean my and to of couple but didn't everyone I didn't ended 1in said, know up of the Morrison, one founding group. a College the That write and said teacnhing was a proved way position Fine original to them I my name me. The was really things for Arts members be a quite me who of I arrived, firom had of that yes he I married terribly fellowsnip hadn't So excitement and program the got When looks, were there. tell up of 17 a medical They I the heard I a was [laugh] "Gee, securing of all and is work. to the tnhat I hadn't came have as end program. class strange they chairman there when due a fellowship. I on big acceptance. department because as failed established numanities today their washithere, he the engineering weren't 1966 well not? more a in were sorry it were tnere accepted pretty was and there, there is although tnere, there one. we scale, school in State for me teaching expected were, and under the was the Jack N.E.A. interesting. PETER L. GOSS Jack #1 Morrison Cagney's of sister. graduate program It was a New S married While school, ever in in ftiniesfant was dollar City we for all Vernon Harvard all of the fine person. His think. York all So the thneir Onio University. three ‘hads tel work. The piece very rigorous were free held at for program. have Jaek. snirt rolling 18 ne Ohio dean became a and to "the were of he's had theatre dance, have it in around guys from and by Morrison running school came New and down I do with Harvard and taught afternoons and evenings cultural Graduate €o the B. country before and the Some theatre character-Hawaiian in all suits N.Y.U. imtrioductiion do tne associate theatre we program run Jack of half professors So was "Well, "was the connections, said, I been first Office president School background paper California had Business arts he City." Alden a the Our year the U.S. around S8t All first on the deans Jimmy administration. and SSaldminilstration. School. that arts week the Business in from a Harvard president fine ran Cagney, assistant grant School. the there of Business of Jeannie his Harvard University to was area wnich York I I the $25,000 Education in is events. It was That was my Campus. He was and nills quite all, of a a colorful straight southern Ohio. from PEIEER ECs Lo 'GASS So 1 wnhat was your program like there comparative arts, at Ohio University? PG Well, in our study music other words, theory, all integrated fo I, not looking at Senat slays PG: At quite art minors in and of some the theory Music interesting. an were theory and nistory to attempt areas music study theatre was [laughter] me. an were Lemke. German. And Antje Her father existentialist wnho's a there's Syracuse areas I Syracuse, asking about woman by professors and was tnat you. on affect at years ‘my during backtrack shnould I Althougnh program. very a was That structures. while wny discovered I math, at chordal tne particularly--you Yesrt to good being interesting EC: had was an have to had it was my nhad nistory--in idea arts although I I the I imagine. can nad and as That with history, well as arts theatre Comparative so killed near damn the arts, and areas. otner PG: the areas, musicology I of architectural these musicology, program. integrate and EC: program, Lemke Rudolf was theologian. were a was in fine 119 tne name of Antje fascinating person-- the christian Bultmann Shne's arts a brilliant and woman humanities, BETER L. GQSS #l extremely that I brilliant had history a strong and who, in that. really graduate years nad have as people, knowledge a sne, comprehensive proposal mentor, in musicologist, teacnh your one tnat doing art of it with on architectural topic crusnped, I so actually but to the roomed in They One witn at 20 nistory and the run one long all I in which then of my after you I worked was very photograpny. the was disappointed I nad I'd back the Syracuse that helped people went I team see better the get was the that I him and could to My architect, arcnitecture, I I great finished was go that breadth dissertation. of the were So do in who that to on Ph.D.s have student. my decided speak. art did. in wall for go the because fellow nandwriting board, White classes a to involved historian nis to dissertation. arcnitecture some taught Dr. me examinations, for nowever, encouraged all was art study they there and to think, herself knew desire in Ohio. think program interested wasn't at don't tnat My passing up I work around instructors a me I who architecture school, She, cireles person indicated further histery. but program. I in encouraged for run my wonderful journalism architeetural could a interest when pnotography Sne and an very drawing I had tnrough the PETER L. GOSS {1 Maxwell Scnool of kept in touch. It from the Bronx who master's in the budget New York was an River State, and went really who Rip Valley. I Eoioikis researcn.” ne dissertation ECE Yie st PG So and that in ended up a great Soif o't a topic York state in rare school a really River it's got story and to do Don and finance my fun' friend my pretty is which like contacting New having up ended arts¥in I this Hudson looks It's Wwoild " bie e [ kie So topic. great a I So overlooking whole the this "Gee, said, of and Bridge York "Gee, land of acres hundred three the this. house, own it on River Hudsoen nis designed think dissertation a to the New by said, I in I to peaked nis on estate given and of nome the gone across been very doing had exotic very a We fellow, Rockefeller wonderful a make He came sight the And it was I was interest Winkle makings and just nad tnat Van the C.C.N.Y, Governor of picture a also on mansion Jewish government. was painter a under could it to there. Glickman, board my because tne went visited and Don administration. or Hudson was Administration public state ad Public and humanities Ehosendays. was the the summer of '69. of summer '70 21 I I did accepted some the work job there here at BETER L. GASS Utan {1 dealing directly interested '70 I moved, finish and teaching wife in was far as one out the decided I would do more end of and Todialy Glolsisi reelording us telling just PG prior happened, strike, to to all and my So to the course began to stay being on of as on other i sivieiry. happened radicalize located is Athens. of PRl S oo f at Swelire and is Petier andi Ohio s Peter with interview University, graduation. up. Eventually went in colleges state the Ke niEe St atiela fi fiair SSwhieniS el WALOR e B students of campus experiences his his heat tired MarriottiiLitbrary,: thet about 1 had ONE] first tneh Mish = prebitnig Nt began win' SIDE tour of siis idestwor sl OF and librarian. fine town the of In I library. get thing campus our part [END EG: a was to University's Onio center the wanted State and '70 it job. there, university really a as was work Thie 8o Ehierf St hiiinig St ool Kent The working growing desk course was he before. took I concerned, WdielsilcW quickly. the Actually year I year was at was the of spring in time, were I before every cataloger interesting. right A.B.D. that dioifERtnie very out at except en in come finances there Bliss. me fellowships a Bob having come Anne, Sne with on 22 the strike, the state teachers and there of Onhio went were on a PETER L. GAGSS #1 couble of problems bombing, and time very If was ne nad I remember coasted into Sattd® thiat stand all in wnile I was Athensi. I and town, I As nill and were blocking president and all sure was enough, the road and the on Wil and twelve had students clampiisaNiSEinicle radio the I wiaish 23 students car, had some radio the be allowed into crested back. school was hours agradiuate to the the vehicles Guard turned thne the surrounded nad I on outside heard I Guard was guiclkliy T threw as I remember miles five Ete twe of I just our saved quickly and National more bombing, andi announcement, this heard town. problem inspairst would one no tnat The getting town National tne that have graduate about into driving wwas the lived I driving. announcement in jumped face, my water the three-fifteen about up would c llockinsni St evie msiifeptmyssthiniceeioll jumped we building. the at guard open. ne'd was the So that week, fire that them of the at more were of fire- school then werkiinsshifits S theyids night one and some some the graduation. cocktail. Molotov a keep students one was president about and after being building for the and our hump, June There trying it the that radicalized from done over cccurred that valiantly could've gotten occurring. The closed vacate the student and PETER L GASS {1 unofficially fellow, we I into went going the town there students and course several before at every entry down geared was canceled. and go made home. my to PGl I decision that at think that I had situation. abandon They hnad Then things in. School happy was enough Ohio of to limits. personal I a about They back at posted to week. their time week effects I had campus [laughter] life. Yes, I Of the campus come take could They there belongings. a could students and campus until the about for there was guard The grim them. and into rifles. nhad personal city the down feet guardsman with was from killed back as air the fifty been allowed but what the onto student their out loaded nad Every anything leave up pretty a campus orders, in Every was teaching deputies witnh weren't take gas just a find back had exit. to tear way as those sheriff's It collect to immediately the the They not could still sanctuary. on and campus. later day State. building week next students Every the the Guardsman Kent staff follow tneir was National a the to was working of have pusnhing that because was member didn't on, town, EC: a things what think you that were experienced was tranquil rather the at crest 24 here in comparison Ohio. and the down side. BETER EC: BGR L. GASS #1 For seme on No, I've PG: L or another I thought you were doing courthouses? work been interested in courthouses, and I've them. of some studied EC: reason See. But the 'f3. actual It was called EG: Now PG: Yest EC: As PG: No, I came and I worked you came to miles down diays W[ and lading, tne of four the 19707? of to hired in Germantown and it wnat of He I that did house actually 25 out chart was over took I and a longer tnan lived We few a every had kept spent hours bills of drawings of evolution the period didn't house receipts, through correspondence, personal So that so organized, wasn't Frederic is wnich painter the Church, going to commuted that. do to be at days We benefit. side a Anne wife, of collection was degree? your have not did the wnhich days design years. in then hour isay and and house. Frederic eight-ten river the and of summer, going should days Home My apartment everything, summer professor. catalogued little a in assistant tnat was she know The you since library, Churcn's finisned university an as She Olana. "Olana: the instructor, an was Painter." Church, Edward in dissertation of tnree that. or But BETER L. GOSS what #1 was how interesting he began overlooking ECE Tne PG: He the source was one painters. for of the most back in he'd aliways trat we was the as into tel could make the estate to a very from start field "I good sold a well- exception father this School Falls the painter his prove, a came the fatner because gteying of villa River Niagara He with his Hudson of 1860s. 1life off thought painting? family, living man's magnificent paintings hnis gone this successful from all independent wash nis money fought that of tnis River. income Hartford borrowing he Hudson his One seeing create of $10,000 to-do to was to house-make was of of very upset endeavor. think,® tor living his and an He father did from painting. EC: nas Now PG It was nad a series that this tning was -late nineteenth EE Onh yes. PG: Of course, everytning called tney what is a of or non-profit a by New organized first property house The Trust century- owned. they and state interesting nineteenth with a by Historic York properties. farm 26 over what? familiar are Dutch the the was century you if or maintained originally agency, wnicn maintain to organization taken been New a York State, revolutionary PETER L. GASS i1 nouse. The century was is idea very typically anecdote, I century building. "Don't you Met real the Victorian But ecentury. "of that everything before seventeenth century. Trust became oni thee grounds. You sl is Hudson can one of River. wander 27 the around tne But still scattered Island. popular ican in Historic they sights Youl was century-- but Long the and That State York most at today. us with and later nineteentn eignteentn state the in interest of everything New said, painting idea historiec whole Churcn the were and most on it students century. still was think months City, organization, another the throughout Frederic So numberof a ownled it's course of done Six Art) also but period, Society me to was whole that of of nineteenth a on nineteenth the in sort a dissertations York of Museum It 19--I turned New in time. fellow architecturally." beginning the in nothing shows that the was fellow nineteenth As of our mine that all at people--the that (Metropolitan arcnitecture them Boston what This of attitude. in about three 1960s meeting the know were there from a and century nineteentn away Historians mentioned I late Eastern talking started about. the '69, or '68 far the remember Architectural was in piecniec estate The because on grounds the of RETER L. GOSS three a #1 hundred Community grounds EC: acres. house. So it's as as the So you portion College. which far A came is of That's not the on apparent turned out to appeal. to university of to went side you one tourist the one as be acreage to of thne approacn the the real replace boons Donald Bergsma? BG Trat%s EC: Wno PG He right. was the apparently PG: hunh. So working on your Right. In the last the I year finisned years up of the seven defended the of wanted Bob done work spring the job. the state, my goods our hnere and well? as which period year the teaching were you 'T7T3, summer and York fill- Utah. to dissertation of offered picked Ohio, to back in out New in summer all more get was A friend a came and two. Althougnh to I and history. or and wanted I '69, two for year year. one for headed straight came and Un I and wife a Illinois from researcning After gone interviewed, be to '70 of architectural dissertation, the toward in been in out come to me nad taught had Bliss's one Koeper, Fred in, EC's first would the been have for Ph.D., back in dissertation as dissertation Onio. EC: Ditdl yeou find that rowgh 28 finishing the PETER BG: L. GOSS #1 you took on I did. Yes, a teaching Although credibility if bachelor English wno is in architecture So finisn came I in principal a EC: Wnhat was your PG: Two classes EE: PG a in and quickly. It to was students. teacn in I'd better because I at classes of came 400 of teaching small to science particular been I a school tough When 350 a no with library decided were have guy that I'd They nere students my three Architecture before was I'd think student we had early God no exams. not with seventies. now. strengtn have to three assistants, thank the in was computerized But to the nave practice a had I wnhich No class. that that 115 was them of one and quarter, teaching regularity load? students. that the teaching assistants over arts, once architecture? RENISIand you was fifty it degree fellow. to still in up in a history worried teaching I'm Wasn't master's I year. Introduction don't a twenty-five quarters and a myself, here's started--althougn job hundred and thing to to because plenty teaching fifteen nelp, don't said architectural got and a I without this Onio, I I teacning area. job? get Bt close disn 't to the LIt's end 29 like of the" the studio quarter, you can't BETER L. GOSS filnd" {1 your ECR I PG They're T.A.s. see. in the studios RelnrisSNa N dalySsanid S unfortunately in nistory students in to do Berkeley, I who can have tneir Wnat was thne came? Do you PGi: take I tnink of scnool Had PG: Yes, or me were I said, we offices and the do or twelve was three the years we the Unlike place and grading. faculty when Bob showed me where the slide tnrough where a September?" be so are in this 30 tnan was most would be, to going brand be. and September "In and to then And site. said building," everytning better he out came I construction And then graduate office was room was tnen? by my then, the when fact of matter It Dean. became building a full-time. became new still Ph.D. Berkeley, chairman the And at architectural ten Bob into to a sio attract some all he "In or teaching. go and going were. the and Anid " really colleagues week k. recall? walking we could architecture interview, Snowed of about As yes. we're size moved you EC a twenty-four master's also some for small. two and up " aiwete a we teacning were relatively within off you dlalyis that nave they're have that, T.A.s we i vies don't program say, EC: we and sure new, faculty enough and the offices. PETER L. GOSS We still quite E€: #1 nave nice. Came art opened that fall, I that you're know and a there nave a art libraries or Eombio Chl e and convincing my Would you on up given mof has care to talk just wnen you making a of your colleagues in your memory Let's see. insgructers as When frem I first a great came, Switzerland. 31l will little came? cons and stiiime £ ficuilic: of do still Some that one and fight nor yet, Versus decentralization. versus bitter a was it know I Yes, at think pros saw probably and I that also. was ratheir idi colleagues, would archnitecture-- and I of separate I libraries. art been we had Onio library. va IiShiavie year. nhave whether or it centralization of value the PGi: centralized of first institutions Onio at right--and was involved? to most combined a course development you Syracuse as the 1library--the the as architecture was thnat's the were as the was and training about debate of was and what library facility '70 great such it of How a was everytning complex library? separate idea fall so new experiences attended tne EC=: the nad yean, whole library--but Syracuse and s silsitelwitn architectural Yes, a them, architecture diuponiStoa university of to whole clalil e PG enough he., bit who Let's about stand Bob see. some out contribution? there That were was some a guest pair-- RETER L. GOSS {1 husband-wife. architect. became They very European They She here PG: did ne? He nad a rather were Wiio an for He adjunct large Univiersity was of We the and quickly their whole experience. of time. was Burteh teaeching we D.C. were He with B2 who's Stan dasaits 1left from had we Tom He was three Hallet Utah several of we their were all Kalznos hiaid Minneapolis, in of University the at still € atiholldiie dasbiysBe b back Bob. witnin all that actually So or while. @ colleagues directorship come Coast kept S vl sHiiEle was to seemed always teacning. from he appointment, he Other e c rutiitie Beb full because was the il West a Matsubayasni, architecture. Minneapolis So have Kazuo aissumel Miimneapoliswsfor: design. I of whe going. Kass when Minnesota, via so that period pieicien By with conneections say planner and from persion Washington, s Eiviaa Viomn'gisfal c or a because brief didn't Tom Viearsisag ol te coast them coming practice g uisiti in: department age appointment there hia vie Minnesota. a my he history. teaching. s in and adjunct? there; there about thie s oitnier architectural that were background were Was architect, interested Blea 1ESwasis EC: an some Kass connection, been had teaching or East the either four in basie years of PETER L. G@SS each #1 other, the EG: Un huh. PG In fact, ne faculty was there nad professorship? Jim downtown: award, national Bob really made mucn Christopher and Panushka and Brixen some of architects one gained the otners have tney been Have on. so and studies adjunct the notable some nad there all. us recruited of nave are that use thne wno people figures we So from faculty in few a major the You've notable some been school tne has nave wnen there were attrition but gone, and much old The Sugden. Jonn and time, that time. full on on also was at adjunct been have came Tnere '70s. early done young dean the now eventually haven't really Now relatively is who Crawley Stan timers, EG: were may he think then today we Inoway Carl I staff. come so time. at and and employed? PG Tney and have practices their for difficult the they've really the come real in. quarter, were going. them to got to world. So A make wnat and bread is happens Sometimes they have been sometimes it's been a 33 booming, and and butter out that they they're their quarter whole a to very it's times of lot how on depending degrees commit good is economy because in varying in employed montn or a will for month a PETER L. GQSS spread #1 out they've are over been a called responsible might be quarter. when the end the faculty--called I Frank various that when you in, A) it? shot as far they going bring people'in different personalities arehitec tisiasident can problem by his soon be practice paying him really ends the that at that fair a up One of from the public B) Can they give it their Quite in, have you So because want to exposed to types of you and best frankly different T hie e ridtilct i very the students department home come stick failures. money the unavoidable, and of of have be The by that of kind diesiigns time, and number can the 34 a architect amount where on students and They wnen this. there t hieliir suffering. up end friom jury or and critique do you the have and middle there and out people of is the concerned. individuals the class. F.F.K.R., to stories success there is in the up teacher? attention pool a good Are as vary te want C) someone status come their been from and have a botn had we've have, they and has it's is with Jim who we and given individuals that of architectural Ferguson problems Are part are the adjunct They beginning students remember occasions, been the had critiec. teaching at the nappens. guest for there They is professor if taken will they're losing. for It that PETER L. GOSS #1 class bares the brunt of all the administrative practice. EC: Was Bob innovative? programs? and at PG: his time Yean, I from the EG: Y=s, yes. PG --to the doing. still step of before time Nilsiedue computers going te funding we were and able other massive and fine al working quite keep researcn of various size that our up. are funding 35 in we was tuned that into out I "We early school, you've there, on area. now, and did get on. I the suppose. tnere flactorsi but Master's computer are going program phasing guard, out Bob's program, the When that transition master's phases of that in incoming avant think uncommon that were were number: in schools We Smith, mention four-three new. don't the to we was were I o fact, there we Unfortunately, of was Smith Ted and mode go to was tnat we program students, thiis in new here? school program, and that the Ted fairly meant master's bachelor's, At I some name? something introduced here, matter that his program-- We're a wnhat's this was introduce bachelor's new As he Actually came old another is Smith. first of was that Ted wnen yes, thinking computer the now. I'm Did But don't got that and due think M.I.T. have people PERRRS L GRSSH i1 attracted--some EG: Wnen you speak successful PG: heard a school of I'm EC: students about grant any of the the that sfalc tors demanding on the it architectural seems to applying fall have some is the the you If to school "ol for has cracks. cat don't go were When the not an on in VliciElcif know, and have try s toliskin you got pressure the 36 are there cat. to learn to do a are N.E.A., grant, you arcnitect you grant. S Ticitisidil money g riantl also because you engineer a not anengineer for the to But N.I.H., applying you it difficult RbutIRittiis S Eridiciiay. You architecture. “tol 1t faculty. N.H.S., yourself ally to iismiat skinning to researcn that pushing extremely school money. imp Sos bil e Rnlerield goitng funded ‘fact) the between money engineering if Mthe of between architectural might Now coming i cilisvie mydiif filen 1N E DT falvoriwe re get ot been nhaven't had Netw part researcn fior might the school grants? o an I grants has *foesthat, Gombiinait fon in the N.E.H. more NISESEHS of schools. has money? kind few HowidoSyousaceconnt it those funding, drawing of to architecture. one drawn PGz in lot through more over So various that, it's Ffilculits. "waiting wnat in ways those you're for of are. not PETER EG? L. GOSS Wnat #1 about loecal architecture? heard of Have any one No, I don't think EC: How do you account BG: I it's e auiESe il an tneir job. medieval A master's three firm at out nere sixty at arcnitecture. And PGi: He's before exam more ne's a in think or draftsman, ne and can and become passes it by figuratively three a nature starts a the wno spends in will he's hnis a big start lucky in profession. is even get out 1if draft he to student draftsman, to medieval years student of licensed, 37 to plagued grand day want is and tne also profession year, has dilutinis just They out do and nhe spitting to scnool a mooning hour versus the are an spends a less 's of There are Of fifty and twenty-five It's 4t a kind economy we three as here grand poor ridiculous. who law really a hiat attitudinal. affair. nave they Architecture years haven't supportive. and 1t's draftsman degree I anything. very gown we is student or clashes rules--literally rules. EC: because architect, chair been town which practicing supportive? vthiat because those that? cihfittielcitst everytning, pay a have for of now groaning Seemainivasae they Ssusplect arcnitects been personality magnification and they endowing BG? thnink architects, he not? for if three he graduates years takes hnis from the BPETER LS GOSS#1 university, and of town-gown situation viewed or have in clouds, the extreme. been I the may PG: On EC: It has led to seems EC: Yes. PG I'd there not as perhaps high-handed tower type is not of that very been we some of so we the are academic, thning at have that pernaps public or tne criticism of some good. some archnitects in their projects that tnis? well as IEt's be Hall there coming happy to were there me of criticisms Palace Justice. should from be. [laughter] here. this discuss [END severe Salt the built they Metropolitan As that But yeah. time PGs do. architectural as to such extreme tnere practicing have ivory the out wonder, of by students viewed other viewed our 1is been the The architects EC: many OF 38 TAPE] poeint. and at also the the TODAY IS APRIL 26, 1988 AND THIS IS THE SECOND INTERVIEW WITH PETER L. GOSS, PROFESSOR OF ARCHITECTURE. .THIS IS PART OF THE EVERETT L. COOLEY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT AND WE'RE RECORDING IN THE MARRIOTT LIBRARY. [TAPE #1] EC% We ended little of bit last interview about the architecture, downtown. and served as on. Let's ‘continue to what extent faculty, the projects and 57 called to on the that We Center, they're studies models, to Individuals SEatV R EIT some What who in kind of the we have walk a sphere do may is have and so Discuss the downtown in mind this members been careful line an architecture early a a may being stages in Design sponsors--if for planning information, for associated - T his s dis in based interest Community proposal be and advisory, of CDC, cSRERIIFSDERNET S St lelam 89 the this? background faculty of a archnitects and a for some between is the school Peter. faculty private scnool on I always the schematics on the in assist--which the bit, public. to the professors, cooperation of members called or have and architecture, any capacity. which or is of into faculty or there us practicing little participate moving advisory a telling between adjunct that, Have Peter here, the particularly Indirectly. an How school upon between faculty instructors, now. with relationship the architects Block PG: our Eihie or project. with the Swrbian RETERNE G GOSS #2 development puts out past year el group that possibilities. in nE Ogden, We indirectly have eommun and 578 used ittty professors. llargle’ Usually people aren't prosperous, so arcnitects whno So very, there's forth. that There we again put to fact that they wish pUrRS N Se has a place. employ a bit happens me like you can to you ithhas lot The our toe students so that's history the economic at 40 very low of their €Ethings the downtown colleagues and involved. back tnat this their to swings are and feel part. and problem, it. very minimum I and sounds architects, their bumpy arcnitects siomel downtown many and get goes on the of being that Jjealousy of times my arcnitects, here, downtown of we tnings. wnen of practices graduate with So because some to in times arcnitects a tol some jealousy petty nad do have about many stay of that teach other small too it. cetera) diffieult and some out of kinds is in going part adjunet In of are one dnstructors busy. very do 'as’ complaining nave this et come "are to they!lre these and these (architects, itls practilces A.I.A. of going that's with the one thiink what to ‘se did Isthink veryicoedteconomicst these NI members from they're involved ath in They S altt s [Dallde s brainstarmeBllocki are comes think that The if not it take happy to wages as PETER L. GOSS #2 apprentices paying a endemic or living to draftsman but wage. that's But architecture are because less a of happy problem the about that is apprenticeship peried. EC: Wnich is what, three years? PG: It's a three year period place. Unlike school and at sixty the EC: PG can be a a years before they become more HasWtrnehifsteory they Jjunior partners? happens You'd have some to promise a can Even can if be to from firm they pass nhave licensed a firm, mucn Chicago or will twenty- their to wait and any they're later passed before law students exam three therefore "thilsapprenticeshipt pretty the in twenty they takes firms. into have large make graduate, *off get graduates in they valuable licencing architectural year. they That out if after where that year, happy thousand day student start grand probably five a before the on exam kind of bieens taken down and thiat on as the line. really shown partnersnip would be resentment on available. EC: I often wondered, the part tne faculty views on of is some of up here there the who architecture? 41 a sort downtown may have Whereas of architects more the toward idealistic practicing PETER L. GOSS #2 architect is meets needs the going to but stick not up quite something that the way it true. I think maybe ought to be done? PG: Right. Ewe Well, I dsSssues think there. relationsnip. thing. I that's It's It's suppose the and all idea. the same time edges of At pushing the just so work butter as well that doing have tnat. There not and butter and firms has some challenge of the because 42 or and thrilling. are the it's bread interesting. while businesses jobs to when signs because terribly hard that firms probably on and bread of lot a do to challenging it's interesting, and built more firms, exciting being their the interested are support to of are names not case who those their it's better challenging after have facilities certain a all course Of keep are there So of that the in law kind create and terribly that fiind whe Ehati, insdeoing that to of school, arcnitectural some are There work. interesting kind schools design. not tower have envelope are town-gown business these going not are they maybe the and job a out put that it's downtown, pushers pencil in professions better a arcnitecture, ivory professionals, better situations, true the typical typical that's scnool, the there make they're But too. a And buck it's in PETER L. GA@SS #2 architecture. having been outside make who get a to go with so PG: and architect the doctors architect he can client pay has to suck in is for willing what he's lavishly, and [laughter] and imagery nas lives paid, well an of perception public the ne's that Frank the and hnhurt relations viewpoint. by designed EC: Yean. PG: And for reasons Wnat the On that.” say. "Let's other nhand the beard state? the have built to that remember is not the architects for are lots environment blame there of other tne state that. about building you publiec the from more architects. could one And of percent 90 Wright Lloyd architecture probably over stories Ed Mr. tnhe that think I Yean, tne and an on. others E€: the and architects how before situation thnink is arcnitect with tne that outside point. I know, You stuff sense this the lawyers front, of the from wonder the up deal that to up really money in along I this consulting Unlike good client; nad EE: buck. a in city, their produce viewed involved the can the Having Has relationship between public buildings wnicn oversees all the working relationship s with in the RETER L. GOSS school PG g2 been Very few good? of building our board, building board the with. may have or speaking, campus some to "Well, pernaps interest." of in nard of my that can large that is The of of, large that's but tne are to be and Center, associated in faculty that coulid say, one avoid a great there hasn't may involved also to So a tne the a been much that none perhaps produce includes conflict practices as of that's be of in on conflict stiate, tnat. generally the complicated with have electrical But exception wnicn familiar that or Ethis able of of such reason witn enough Architecture all otner think as areas sense buildings that is thne the to there I'm with of any done believe, colleagues, I are 'many to interaction. how that system. 'suppoise that's Knowing "interest little &L by the projects none designed with in systems of knowledge, been Eangnty form involved on mechanical other my have INyvel consulted complicated systems been not for They have certainly designing involved EiCis faculty one that building Art and museum and there's that side itutoo. Now, tnink cilty" looking that at they the school would plianspsceuntcy. of architecture, be involved plans, and 44 .so in on. helping Has you would develop this been BRETER" ks GOSS' {#2 so? BG: It has been community really design activities. avoid other and de "If it."™ And and their are to put has can a such that do together been about my in nere nim way there of is and ignored job, of this then we'll people bringing to sphere. Arizona have this the preliminary as teams the school A. of university I was Ray the "think i Etlle 1£"s a to do money into been some in on whole the or in this great day to begin to ask whether is a economically 45 as know regards a viable to of some Planner's there has a matter be reasons in the architecture for privatization, point basic Since Campus may" Roger interaction campus. other of when of called, This be planning? deal the ofificially may I department campus There tnere campus great Olpin However, very with N interiaction. personalities. Has recently. procedures establishment @fifilce™ campus? there and planning the on knowledge was between very else are private states one Assist, aspect with no this what Bailey on the architecture they these suppose other through systems. Well, Not where of participation PG: I less competitien schools it, EC s Again, there said, or center, direct However, more fact situation. been of that. one that They has this have BETER L GOQSS #a gainfully years to entire I work some over bureaucracy know Bruce arcnitecture planner. of our there. that students over think that's be privatized and a graduate here But could I the an save money. university the EC: employed Jenson and was moved What into about the the position present of time, of campus since his retirement? PG> I don't number of who's a and placed of fleet there. There are working are that planners and a in draftsmen. the' with ‘relatilonship thisvetnol Th'ely been architects office that EC: know sichool of of our arcnitecture. PG~ have nad no graduates are now They are interested EE: there has the school of architecture arcnitectural preservation Yean, Wasn't and of Bob Heritage Foundation Viairioms 'mlembiers committees, on Bliss course nice. was he along of our preservation 46 or committee one a for of with the something or time? founders you. of and the were There faculty--I've committees in city instance--a with--for that individuals of participation been Now other. PG: be would which relationship working of form some establishing in they think I tnere. working still some although relationsnip, sat on board of BETER L. GOSS #2 trustees EER at Heritage ingourescehaell 'sit You very have been dn and Committee. Describe you've Okay. Well, and the rejects or traveling pursuit of see things and the very hign. excellent the in and what to has nominations u7 to the place to or them prepared I That have from aside state in it's been quality of been of a in presented and arcnitecture the operation on National wishes because state's The the Committee. the meetings. of to Rampton accepts are duty staff back nominations they seen. preservation Sites one publication, and the The Governor the corners of by quarterly naven't quality activities with either enjoyable research I there, the goes and and staff all to in that consider very of applications sites sometimes and Heritage Preservation bit Cultural and Register by Utanh really placed reviews interested being Utah Historic They found always some was them. approved montnly been I National the the association historic all Register, on in committee Tnis individuals had. sites State Utah little earliest when '70s in Historic involved have my involved a and situations. State been nistoric early the they successes Foundation public much Foundation that PG: the own my fun to research office has responsible for that register. They have PERER L. a GAOSS {2 good the staff and committee unlike to a always itself other be have is states very ifnis t ancieldin® difficult, and PG: Arnold I mansion to Then there wno once down the tlon There got a is little Project withn having hills strong chair, meeting interesting Milt Abrams were all kinds that was committee The idea I and of of many and individuals 1like and site seen the paintings with pitch that chellcansternatieon 48 this off it go and on other were came the the out to luke been nad us the infatuated others gone had visited and T.V. chairing now Friberg the and radio Friberg the committee Sites of tnat to went we When from time the all in Historic certain are very a seem very the place whole tne warm a where [laughter] Friberg's at a discovered I and committee. made They people. I-215 1is Peterson, Georgia people, tnere, there meet to became case. ‘thingsh the Then non-political, the of committee. the on governor's look in This missed never been used was former our and nad had body whitieh Friberg--yes. situation, USU, not staff. Friberg-- down wrote just I that good Peterson. Georgia EC: is minded anifivioniel a relatively which fair have nomination. Moyle James up looked on wall the in back and and register much of the smembers BETER L. GOSS {2 committee. meeting Finally out to different toock a table. The should be an had we listened to great the real of register EC: That's what requirements PG There are was I or several requirements but a place to not was much had "Il was who office building in a get to not “an worry to on the the age the age personality. living a not was policy nis because really was nis said he and Utah, from ticket hot Register, going was he that him told I Washington. a as pretty in Register National the of Keeper the of this of Murtaugh(?) William to talk to opportunity the from all altihought that sitlavied ) Eloigethienfiaftert Of from Rampton committee The least. the in the Register. from Governor that know I on it nomination Register National the of put National the two testimony acceptance to on at vote, testimony great The one a Friberg testimony great be National tne gone it to to the on passed controversial. pleased motion that involved. Keeper the a come placed then be to site for having discussed having transportation, of agencies state Now Peterson, Georgia after having passed fact in voted, site, hour motion department and the meetings. half course they It wondering. some other criteria, there were 49 didn't did criteria, it a wasn't few so other meet it? much things. The PETER L. GOSS house the #2 was old nistory enougn of sufficient. office in regards down EC: To to what you only But meet person Carl the who Murtaugh Washington also Did the to after extent did house LDS feel some pressure through some of the the up and one he and house privately came Sandburg's the in me this Sandburg's requirement lived told that until age was in nis time with turned that deatn. Churcn from become the committee involved? LDS church members or like Jim the LDS Moyle? PG Right. I churcn although worked upon was a after not who tnird right meeting the committee. own free will a or wnich in thing that, was gone. Rampton's 50 Jim have been Jim Moyle committee meeting regular point face we we tnere of by had chairman perhaps the metion.™ whole after He our ralmotieon 2! that the meeting, at may that "Since issue," the to from members. interesting, the Misatnat And pressures committee said, stared tolvmakes second?" very Moyle the pressures appointee chairing saidry any various was that people kel feel individual It reconsider and not political Rampton. was did should were Milt ten Abrams Jimiasaiid, « "Yesh s Milt said, "Is died right there. Moyle Wnetner doing, I was that don't E£here removed was know. T4 a The from of his BETER EC: L. GOSS Course ne State PG: {2 was Park's Yes, it tnat a some state of people number general's carefully Matneson's now the for a EC: Have you felt PG> None whatsoever? E€: There S PG: Right. EE: But PG> I of Including number and of there committee, I think of while. from But I were seemed and present the others then administration the after to Scott I'm time the and have who with years a are I the and on been me, number with the homework il a that do is an Price, Provo, from who are done a for committee admirable really body. from doctor people of thing? working Alexander Tom they think of good very a Jacobson nas sort this have We Florence that on so and pressures political the or Arts Fine Society, Historical experienced no. and of Institute directors. Dorman Eldon the pressure? the some the not, have a at the course haven't you of But observers number Bangerter's political fellt removal a Right. administration, Council, Ehinlkt chairman year. of Arts Fine was were and for committee been are that us that and of he connection. office monitoring survived chair because Commission. was attorney nhave there on the job. But well on a PETER L. GOSS staff {2 level, committee, voiced. can EG: and These watch You and the material if there are are public open committee haven't Coalville the in passed meetings any tne and the are people do. situation Heber to they so operation, the on reservations encountered Tabernacle, is like Tabernacle, the and so on? PG: No, tnose kind Of course the to us of but last year. of Hotel Utah course that The difficulty only with committee a was few wanted ‘to haven't was not was a other when years administration that landmarks for that the representing natural gas issue we came after us. submitted preservation Matheson just begun, drill hot Scott before something instance ago, nad come had to the Bangerter an oil below firm Hovenweep Monument. EC: Onh PG: And of us yes. thnis an was because and lease--I guess procedural board. Scott very controversial They of the that it It issue. environmental setting, a a situation a was that presented it. they We testimonies 52 voted and was in it was presented down support to the a had they wnere it more brougnt ruins land--anyway, BLM was It actually was archaeological situation Matheson's issue. merely to the despite of hnis PETER L. GUSS #2 client. The drilling, problem and generators day and Many that it's keep that was on the the EC: We on little Heritage view of wanted to position we had the and situation gave the nis me as where the that to do up with and a it as of thing camp sight feel to Natural drilling permit. Scott Matheson representing [laughter] early Mrs. taking board days of Rampton as a Escalante different Canyon. had within He taken and area wilderness right the of had the a committee the governor hours the lawyer. we be wanted really in be and find a tning to a table role same kind tnem to of naving same that Department preserve to visited to would of the and open mile although Foundation point a event, the chairman there any in nonorary going In side company was twenty-four half have shocking encountered the a who asked other gas running pristine down, there discovered within us very was a was situation. that that deisels of a Resources It gas and lights ground. voted if was the a so state family. PG: Yean. EC: Tell us Historic started here you a little American before were you very about bit I'm Buildings. on were much 53 a the campus, part of H.A.B.S. aware but one tnat after survey. program-tnis was you got RETER L. 'GGSS #2 PG: Two EE? TwemdiEtferentiisunveysic different this, in PG and the The what success " Tell you and that the I was involved summer of Th'ens salitst ftinad iitidional, g the arcnitecture and the It drawing. there matcning I PG: And so I a program federal The was the we about nhas had survey do the was in measuring and At where there is some areas that raised matched there the historian. project. was of students Foundation rest summer Beall involvement the the used to Heritage and was summer-long Unfortunately aware this and of has no was some by the longer any summer a new school instructed on in up slowed However, in that. slowed certainly tnis work bit wnatsoever. surveys. do was money wasn't up this Burtch engineering was government. matcn, survey. funds. the EC: little with '75. of of a think supervisor time us state? survey 'T4 surveys. we are where actual here in and that to do H.A.B.S. te Utan 54 and in spend nad would be come quality allow their slowed any new continuing would experience and it launching interested projects, in up students arounditthevcountrys situation us format, how in to to hold in and a be drawings, students this summer from kind of in thne PETER L. €OSS #2 West. We once again. would material The that to start is of written material, and and interesting that Society Architectural be of a guide What qualfitcly book nhaven't will be HEASBESSY there been some areas. iz onan nash summer. local But money your students Now, I know ANB St or create are I a ongoing the where classroom you and Congress and projeect. But being a states arcnival done in colleague, in priog riams case H.A.B.S. "diuring St he have to get situation in which destroyed by fire, for that employed. Fort old drawings believe a of every H.A.B.S. in be mine, Society use create will going cover to words, var iou s is the will to llong of reconstruction. House? aF other it's the Library friend again with is Those a remember H.A.B.S. in meeting material the That!s work, 1 cover to it's that alse the Now by do to drawings. back to all photographs, established and over over There hoping to turned sites that Historians. covered. program. is some Jjust some is includes Historians they're turned is actual series photographs that and was "phoitegraphist quality A I Architectural state. course that the document of documented Congress, of to procedure Library to EC: begin Was and this under the 55 Ross so also was on were true first used for H.A.B.S. tne Devereaux program the PETER L (GASS {2 Devereaux House was drawn by Paul Goeldner and his men. PG: It's used that those They® to ref they're an are a not ‘'very coming to by written the nelpful got about to any drawings. things In what because When you work from, some of But nave the as the fire that exactly wnat these So there's PG On yes--very FCh: How does of a a are the mater good fabric of are toeok may time When years they fact, probably place nad documents should to he to be redraw may have points. be able to photographs-- valuable there. went H.JA.BJ S, starting the Beall drawings the have go were he the and to They that, on tne someone Burtch on left of have that. when and later peculiarities they photographs EiE: he whatever yet, drawing., against corrections enough and but there instances of as restoration was of some well realize drawings. the drawings, extent, actual ‘of at thirty as to working misleading. those 'kinds discovered. of nis cnecking making as have kind twenty, certain you extant be record a do is can interpret to in what ten, trying same rudimentary which in However, the documenting documentation, is extent. because So these used for. are practical-practical the side. H.A.B.S. 56 Yeanh. Program differ from thne PETER PG2 L. GOSS #2 Historic Engineering H.A.B.S. and right H.E.A.R.--they're now. does The the who's thing. chnarge, engineer. They sEmdient s s to work on that see. same EC: Let's PG: Utar EC: Two. PG: Yean. Those were could be more. nas Utah nad EC: Now PG: That's EC: Has PG It any one in the early Again, arcnitect civil architectural find at a that the But the drafting to they usually archnitectural students survey. in I think It's for down witn like to the road the do school of tnis as establisn a piece. thne published Foundation to engineering of cooperation we'd take would probably it probably there and '70s scheol Heritage catalogue and want. had program. tne an Record engineer, better nas that like summer have hnead projects. the in architecture. a the and one two. initiation something they engineering the usually are under Engineering ussually students botn of engineering theyi standards combine They have kind American possibly but architectural the Historic same in Survey? first H.A.B.S. right. tnougnt really needs been to be given to subsequent--? rewritten. 5T There's so much work BETER L GOSS that #2 has to be at tnat been corrected time again Just I say to do we should that. be involvement EG> Yes. PG I started for ten a That I very fine that I members began on the board, and using an the to and that it, but grant to do architecture, money to of be able course, future, asking and I 1984 able me my and but it about my I on think the under of that group. we've had anyone sinece encounter for on the the expertise. 58 and board Although board, one and I social board It was was found leader first of tnink and Stephanie field. being to a the were in my board the interesting Probably outside in don't fais was in of 1974 very sucelessful people in finishing fact, information Foundation. board a had drawings You Heritage of experience. being that. Churchill departed. more we Utah lot needs wnat need on drawings do their matter yetiras lay to book a of that thought you'd takes much level some a have so factual been more years Stepnanie As on the it and the finished now in of and nhave nice then money, that We as has need nhaving should would far There you'd since because as catalogue. it. done sShe challenging experience with there some of were the problems began to see aspect of being for has your very was on expertise interesting PETER L. GOSS #2 because there interested EC: I in didn't know chose them--who some the I of the It's the nation name Utan to were was One than Kestler Z. we think I member. alternate the indicate untrue and fears of and the just is that leaders civie these of silliness. is think I across states this that some that preservation and state and we buildings of use today tnink I period early the with the and tnis in have really initial there they Fuels. B. with frustration we foundation tnat Mountain preservation. unfounded were but how interests. economic the wonder they felt they and we that record less their Heritage coincides and buildings were experience, often that the preservation mucn your probably restoration nave was feel of the more that tnink to of of board otner who having members--I seem some president any board because endangering experienced members than it efforts [laughter] PG: whether were the board board. there thwart some preservation the on listed were nave. EG: Well, don't other decline I think know tnere that whether of an area persists it is preservation or was a 59 going building also today feeling a that result toe or somenow in something. I and or economic PETER PG: L. GOSS Wnat's #2 proven opposite, eat and their that EC: now realize tne drum. To want Have they destroyed imtol PG you avoid to always them that intentions an 60s This 0l1d House of thing to from people most beating keep up that extent at Brignam there. have they have or who people tabernacle old the with preservation some of and inside used problems structure historic the you run if you Ehing? of thilswsort Well, get as it the te it renovated in I have maybe of the on worked they know I City, but we nistoric thinking I'm renovate? to of that have proposal tne countering committee, any being think your and Foundation Heritage have Today kind experienced you have extent wnat to economically still you the able members, like gains I just be founding materials new but that board this restoration. preservation, not did that. promote Everyone nouses. these I the be it's would television and products new Show on that tnink experience that and Well, would programs is I with your there others and holdouts problem yeah, case, today. with wonderful the these of see tnat be words kind could to get early problem. MWnomWwant enough, It's te 60 de:. of bit little a education with the that, can you who nave things. ALlL people these and good ef a PETER L. GOSS #2 sudden they think contractor but again of sort they This is PG: two of SIS Heritage Foundation and of some tne she that saying congratulated as suggestions this. Later house and I that on doing to wnom she was was looking for a she had to I said, "Well, have here? needs some what You've planning." be to the to of kind got She 61 thne a do for bed and and we special the pretty big "Well, about to the acquire did of renovating and she for her Committee. And do you accomplisned, term some offered talk process long and admirable sne Landmarks says, one Ware, to some me called or and this the could student go off committee one very that in it that so is houses, in here ought call she two was that a 'Pleter woman a Walter plans got Peter falctivit ilels another by design ner nouse because buying the the the' buy was thought I collection. g hie P26 th . recently to have probably with preservation wanted was It breakfast. It's encountered. saying, friend a and nouse well. interview il sSSWA D rsile his as the TWO] TAPE el only part. second and not architect ONE, problems was I are their aiblolit N slemlet as Recently, the our G nid S tloldiay EreliSiSignici they on SIDE OF side G alsisi are ignorance [END E€: that drawings project facility I've got that to do PETER L. GOSS that #2 porch, and quite large using a this? all, i "Working on you're a broeught we of things. very I said, problem. You Yioulic an can s paecie’ B nailliyassiniesian di need atiwhiat an fneeds gight.! and 1is that was golly, no trying to to one have was say a is that there!'!s another way going to end going to come around and going to spend more money wno sit on up doing the to bids to Landmarks 62 on it." these of and years.! nere and had But of I in and I Committee do said look one what doing said, two ik M Yioudirie breakfast it. cnange that things, she way tnat she solve siaiidiy ner. one doing things problem on N and stop can architect, phase in where there's of an you reiciohit . & Whia € Fand bread there, than can come thing going over ‘aiiperiod bievdione" kind v of said, can e ssttyou! architect ‘tof Et!s¥the Yovier IS I architect Fout with time." each architect you this, use more, aren't on problems and not involved batnroom to they're working of construction "Ehis get be reluctant Your get to more "Your "Why to here, more but said, periocd into talked up, al column run was I going "over to columns, architect porch She after really And you're tsSout going imagine." some enough." After kind found preservation phasiing® and I goal and by I was it and "You're years you're again. You're "The people aren't going to RETER L. GASS {2 B aSSHonsanieleifisthiisesstufif . start fram there is the the still them city. They The contact will with people. taken place. Now, you to lot with free witnh put of can get contact the people of just been in information that publications lot a check going a So society could tnere's well of meeting a to Historic-of PG Society EC: Historians. If states? some In Yes. of Well .. on done preservation program preservation could support student a and architectural programs. one at degree in this in 63 the in committee Historians, Architectural Utah say stacks the up with We Utah. point then I'm and not don't sure time. architecture We with a been has and programs nistory really of Society there a dis there because dnteresting prie sier viat fon, survey you in areas? surrounding iths programs preservation there is sessions, these of some would how so, the of Historians. Architectural discussion some a they and Foundation as beginning." if not advice So might nistorical They're you've indicated, the but the there's have you in that, give Heritage and the of office, there, out place information. services. PGi: soeme preservation give EC: right Sol a nave that we can give a good PETER L. GE@SS #2 background in working for a go and do out Ball State George history, firm in that. all have the I from a andivites an you tedt then to have degree want If to be in and degree be in of preservation architecture do for them? them coming are and Well, continue they to 64 would or a get a that too, dangerous what or so the because art I history degrees going to necessarily going to be. In these be and get do not Utan might to history you program might are and if you of to work, course or little are wnat want toeo, able out you a you a If program So are animal, preservationist, preservation. be new architectural to and a of go thnat up, arcnhitectural mignt do degrees or nhelp cnarge nistory people An be to brought architecture, to you the in average a of restoration background the D.C.-- in want able preservation think than but nothing study fowl. experience. Foundation, Heritage MBA you ‘ner as Vermont, One is can such of has in he areas programs. degree history nelpful student. a this, Washington standpoint get some some in preservation fish interest other in specializes and get with more term, who has University University nelifthier® go to are Indiana; personal architect nave be me nhe specializes preservation tnat think, if There Muncie, problems be that Washnington these and they want to PETERNLE. GESS other {2 words, wanting a student comes get a degree in like to to "Well, they if I'd start to me Pn.D. in history like Or," kind managerial ought you been to a business wnatever. Reading advantage of it isn't in over these tnat Columbia University sSteER N iin S EIsaineina courses, to that and down come out witn ability I'm not this broken and I it's push going to preservation a preservation you degree in putting down preservation. education. down--if you 65 come along Preservation begin level, te or can take but people one into. of these degree, and that's you're get can an in look I'm and have areas putting said education at on Tnere's the between and nhas if you'd necessarily back that know, preservation. forth some maybe If you don't or talking program sichoiodlg and M.A. interesting, would Columbia, it getting people work to program preservation it's a an graduate material, and know, you a at some these a tlelcitiurie student of on nas arcnitectural such," you in about "Wny?2" you're maybe, were offers what or tnat me with off programs Wwou off better the something and undergraduate, that EESfioreiinsitianece, scnools be to "Well, than skills" continue sucn better rather might do say, be talk preservation. and I you'd about.™ you've out describing. sounds of go to things, it's as you BETERVIE S GOSS Sietel #2 GinialcE Aol ald architecture history are EGS If what skills available no you nere to and siSp ] anninig " and and on tand architectural all people areas, take an programs record And in of these things campuses Baatts EC: Wally PG: Sure. EC: Allen other made U historical we because there isn't better to spend strength new the kind are a the reasons entirely that in the the there of PG: be outside yet sort is at your of develop on in one would interested offered do direction We were classes might Rignt, that E€: GRS history managerial someone it. art e R though programs. really P& and and really other die sl that we programs state of our this, of haven't enough efforts have it? moved call in rather a than to compete have are other approach and that U there in for othner than against good track thing. some firms or individuals reputation--Burtcn wno hnave Beall. ‘pight.. Cooper. Roberts, I ne guess works with some of these people. PGis Un nun. EG: So apparently PG Trnere is there opportunity. is some But 66 opportunity. that opportunity is really PETER L. GOSS based me #2 in and architecture. who enough are to skills get program but it is that students they degree they can in do nistory, and and offices Are there of sometning we Well, naven't of the Not over really don't area geograpny that proposalsy for transportation 'ski me to be environmental and had haven't we to agencies up 67 on the some of ski the something Is in there tnis? We that. with a are wno a of little variety more sciences in area. have made interconnects, and students resorts, systems be because suppoese, seems That factors. are who expanding involved get I to, able federal thinking school your in offered been tural and environment. the of protection the for mind architectural people to got there's yet and areas, resorts a history, students of development for now plans the have art state I'm environment? the in they're ' In " architeec those for opportunities interested their that. do can of to not or preservation with interacting in We that way a history. for work is tnere so And but two-thirds NanidiEa St hie shitst wrditit en and to, able RisiEeiny graduate it master's essence come but in are a who architecture architectural really interested PG: in professional by wnere agencies. EE: a such “taken are interested aren't very There canyon that to avoid heavy BETER L. GOSS {2 impact on environment. fascinate students thesis. Every thesis project development the aspect of is the with some pristine to that all of essence a ne's going have that from an want number good to oil of personally, waiting to be and he, At we in Ete the that's it's because of done. 68 a his time real some of can the and shouldn't fees firm of is get worms is what going big going things road This and may a that's with g impact over this he ¥int large He's door great keep same too. "Okay, seeing area," because the say, architect compromised. life in a an direct dmviollvieds canyons feel comes ability years. discover wno maybe such tne an ski at typical into a experience experience And the may life state do." vand nhe of the poses a come @ rs hiel igie tis has It Where of looking also develop which sudden client to signs a can "Well, quality kind to the it's values. want system the to we silci®araie " upon also their some environment. architect his projects become nave and because of of interrelated the environmentalist, transportation we is industry an "Well, diewellopias in that wnere saying, seems problem of conflict it ski kinds frequently protecting interesting example and year of Those to bucks what we dollar fior into for that "Xn it him, are PETER E€i L. GOSS Well, #2 the does to some laws architect the Absolutely. EG You PG: Yeah gt thlat!'s this space yet, ‘becoming Welre work of noet sure it a to the was area. It to into Scott in a Jjust you as an eitner® budliding the school ors conflict? evitilclizerml Science suppoisel his San to that context-and I'm archnitecture. conflicts thnat 1life, everyone I as suppose the going back a firm gas environmentally sensitive issue. briefly. individual nhave been project I'm in not big in it. buildings, representing difficult it or a term fields. an upon term in upon where WelSSRET of become Matneson drill becomes Benavioral because in big particular member direct ne architecture phileosophical come of touched themes stay of will their that We lots case what problem from*buildings. the will a from has in of encroach cast contextualism does aware before can't Qquite term arie more ever patterns cast” but arcnitect PG: you tne There E€: than and Francisco--snadow refileetions be exist. PG stage to environment that have has which thninking Have or there as asked a to faculty evaluate ‘brought over been you here of in the Building. so. First ofwalliarchitects i kemcoodiidoctors), 69 they rarely rarely crilticize PETER L. G@SS {2 the-work of know about able to you can that another architect. architecture, practice become to that. in or very proposition what's nelp nistory going people on. keep I somewnere else., I've criticism, and quite discussions, there arechiteets, who building. It's understandable, role as easy criticism tit'"s" interesting, activities that I for of awhile enjoyeds personally activities. it, that The Utah at but I begin other ifie to off personal the criticize thne and that's extent. So my worked easily too scnolarly I is tried fascinating. for consuming away draw very and doing. was It it, at hand the be to time thing can amongst my from away so aware going of consuming Holiday. it's a architectural more tried supposed I'm tnat is e tur al R iiniditairicihiitie I've draws it but then with is eor instances certain oin time e©nly not a film people people, that write. to keep outright to being wnatever, self-protection one pilcifeliismEmSEad imEoM achc but just you believer it's outside few of firm rather of very is a some involved suppose nistorian a in frankly, form I nhelps track been more sympathetic whether it the would a I'm suppose are more arcnitecture, and on the field, or the difficulties However, any literature of the architecture, criticism valid However, from not the me other having a PETER L. GOSS #2 journalistic background or writing Perhaps looking it from I was scnolarship treatise and regards to necessary not from calling "Wnat are of a historical But witn buildings--some saying, and station silly is this "Look, I And worst?" five say I and grimace just the on and best five your point viewpoint. radio some the defend commenting from up to another actually people always at background. business." EC: are Are there won PG: I before Yes, I but some, I know tnat don't know who want to state? the witnin Christopner & Brixen else. were you that, on comment Ble faiviioriiial S Siciiie nic el b igihi=irtiisie N tinlel mieh'c iloniine instance for given awards chapter local nationally. A.I.A. tne by given awards there Now building. EC: Yes. PG And to introduction slallking® architecture, the from ot ariehitiecturie about campus there nleMEn particularly I deal because onto tne itniz st iis can they greater Mitiniait attractive. el students about thinking and environment their with get to because architecture teaech I time each building that eriticize I relate to here on We go that. world. One tihialt s butislid sinig S iis Snioit parts Secondly, of it the blocks one of BETER L GOSS the an {2 finest axis the which open toward So seemed should these are all was then if asked of you on But in step campus building, and probably guidelines. the building was given. in moving have snould more in and If that Well, Utanh?' so University of in thiait was you'd I'm less situation S int the kind find the such “does in Utah it the 60s, campus. with 12 a "Gee, etc.," the we and they questions Secondly, there? everything was Berkeley, big created really if and architect that the tihne were blame building But a there saying, belong oft have may buildings, does kind thinking to highrise is, to arcnitect that hesitant of early such about one of community, was direction, that it's of build that its top Terms was to of on Now guidelines the facing the planning every was move campus asked generally, then further, that and think to ought So and of point principles campus. planner the than arcnitect, a 8 end termination arcnitectural back the o this the by some no urbanized Chiinlic tne you're architectural the at around, represents Utah. going turn is termination violated, e dEife ol SISt o University It its with been create as you building to that valley. have When nave that mid-60s the mountains, to that, of view. the axis. o views belong growing, we equate you've got the apples PETER L. GASS #2 amdivemangies Wi the conitfgunaiEiene aicialdiemtitetaislsyss configuration not iregards Mt hiells ST of Sme Ehianifwesarediriightasin doorstep. so create patterns campus, the of of s front. of would Well, it space we've got here. building have Could that thinking PG Rignt. EC: For of, would there are I been fact we're populated Lake things that the most area (City's began to urbanized efficient my built actual tnat of mean talking the Salt the but, gosh. today? use Look What at I'm committees. recently just instance, be the space not more kinds thought, nhighrise I'm and a those actual ablowut probably space. the EG: And kidin g’ campus sitting--that's the clampus. a1 their to with these one of at that parking Eerxacess PG: Yeahn. EG: It PG: Rignt. EC: There PG I was turned seemed to there think and down. everyone people were weren't really these new no be was so was in seeing opposition mucn sucn what much paying facilities, and 73 building going growth a was going wanted time, at on and mentality, on, tnat They attention. they time. to get they needed them up PETER L. as GOSS #2 fast as better than probably think EC was I'm it PG: Un. EG: It here Un EC: So was to we damn in to give I was were Noel be a to Nevens way, So or they didn't damn. chairman going de one in. of the bookstore a new bookstore build heading a group wno shot between tne Orson Spencer Hall and the Building. nun. here's to a the Yean. Well, state of is committee because it mistake Student had and got the we're not in any is ridiculous justifiably bigger 60s, terrace a that president the parking and a were was [laughter] went PG: they anything down. Union PG: was of, probably that give important and and barracks thinking committee, and the could, didn't it Wnat they a Services of to was made Building for pllanning is it Gardner, Chdnk 1€ lought sayang indicate M good those planning T4 now goes back was where it was. to me, go and Is it, thrat to putting Now was sure a the who that there. I'm the of think that he and I and wnen growth example with. decisions. to feverish good It They defeated. building down. responsible “or that begin voted influence. program perfectly idea was tnat kind an 1is campus president, It doesn't that Bruce PETER! L. GASS #a Jensen is a Riaviesibleleni@p tnere, put and of one in the a roads all years EC: Here was a Let's program. You to put it terrace about this for your it being from the raised fact that there or more room to by come in. and peripheral most ridiculous and sure and saying enough, two "Well now tnis." activities about bit little outside a television your teaching your instituted time first the put it staff the may were needed so in recently Jjust television has turned arehitecture? it subject, think But reasons. attempting they and good, are to call the use it, some Division this and number a architeeture. on P:B.S. Seylesiion had We've seems. of of them 5 to Seme me public of them I various Education was (Channel 9), network and of for bad Continuing education came are popuilas wiery Silsial Archiiitec tliries Taachbitscorrecic . as a talk who there, coming to about the with campus, talked teacning. and thnere information about the parking we've of students they're programIs . PG to talked tiolteither campus, So him questions Building around later, need tnat the commuter decision sources said that that. for they ing S acecelss) particularly We're when my Park ESRneMniaek we of than " presisuries course Building staff planner el titefall there, Park better asked me to do a BETER L. GOSS #2 course in the evenings it's been a into that format. challenge. students who than I and if were very it kinds of people is claimed they've Art done, that viewing and are and this hear I and They this. of of relatives from any crank nhad I've given so far, some of thneir it's tnink I the Haven't according correct reminiscences, family neard greater nave week, to actual discover on up that information the All calls. to result discussed. are that I public a I've and personally, what to of in week as put classroom picking are work terms is listening watching arcnitects in and no weeks, in me call in format, are recent who of numbers However, in lot think the interested all from a Center. there out public television been I teacning terrdifiec a. It's registered particularly the Although Architecture Eherel's on to a had public good impact. EG: Lo thinlc e ifs environment. be PG: into sopitlisia rights a: the book ougnt to tosput it they that jewels some it But with on Utan the challlenge real over format T.V. situation. coincided nhave their of. thinking ThHats They of aware people making too,, s nas a been publication. architecture 76 forlme straight valuable, My wnich classroom it's and co-authorship of in one I suppose PETER L. GOSS way #2 helps people sales aware book on and of Utah in the another fact that arcnitecture way it they that really makes can now go covers all kinds and that's get a of arcnitecture. EC: Wnat PGz I is your teaching Teach two classes standard I teacnhn in art one sizes and first came types 400 vary to students wnile a One of is more they boards about library and arcnitecture, background of thnat the boards they're architect to do some to one I still class the because for tool student. that so involved with the the kinds of when church on sit they across get to familiar and to other the like are 350 architecture. arcnitecture, that an and inform and teach the of that of we'd I three recruitment and When that archnitect an class is exhausting boards, T to profession of field building on sit tne the which nad by wnat tnat asked believe I valuable tnings the the to very a it's I taught be was area. quarter. class pretty promotional and architecture I pretty history Well, to teacning class. to needs think It's that really it's university, row classes. really class. quarter quarter. required teaching from per in am architectural architecture quarters a quarter, introductory the introduction a nistory, large to load? with general services I PETER L. GA@SS and experience those EC: Now, are wnat begin to teach the broken required Survey down courses? to what the teach some History, and that surve. Then Do you plan Now, in an do to tnat material I'm department between it He's witn program, brought downtown. Is arcnitecture people and done anything 78 from some there public formal. and new fun, of bit and more the public his considerable there's post- thne area. that courses? haven't of Huefner Bob a on class a in quite been in American of research the and school I and scope, in because again, developing interview administration planning. That's suburbs. II War my modern taught 1 fall of on tepiecs wvaridous some early Prairie the on of through class a is international is Thisepast because suburbia Egypt thne survey a that's say there Then en' slenool arenikteeture. I I from electives teach Ehilcagie and two-quarter when and whicn arcnitecture World a century. twentieth We bring question Architectural Architecture Western also of into quarter, third PG should them. for the people those? is EC:: those and doing is I tnat committees arcnitect of PG #2 work in planning cooperation nere administration PETER L. GOSS {2 EC: Any exchange BG We are of bringing Warner from adjuncted various to to courses our course subject tney EC=: Yes, yes. PG: Tnen enter and EC: but Now, you've example in So to is been we are make our The something thnat also getting our don't forgeft our in any degree, bachelor's a She geograpny. of course Carol have trying We're if you're Some of to own tne do both experiences in various 9 that have so MBA glutton for nave done takes thnem students probably besides university joint a have joint on architecture, real our It in of also We exhausting. very of outside also they'll level exchange. an years be program, four-three a graduate the on So program. graduate will participated chairman "OF there session. are in. into [laughter] your in ooty program it's four a the do M.Arch. about good that punishment. it, a people master's of do we on say, going classes yeah, and we as Psychology. to degree, out year first in such want. we're level, of and is a people out g get come interested siEmidieniEis S Eold students various that be anything? department, available might or Department reach suburban some in the people trying they professors degrees. your campus teaching, activities-- library advisory PETER"LS /GOSS #2 committee. having PG: It a may be. and I on do have of scnool library and don't imagine we're the to the with appreciation flnic 1§ pREs MEGS your for the in committees to because to the funding I've in for my the situations. the of case I changes, situation and that limited the the campus colleagues be review someone own will the that that branch-library funding can much. do ‘"are 'problemstofl campus--can background, problem. i dlelo G R itSR 80 ago interesting my tnat for internal these regards this of on present to tne assumed with tnink " there Yeelaht, W underistand PG: going also committees very that I've interesting in whether enjoyed function. years me It's our the I been desire till but think of of put conflict know your I've with So library the future, expense did. its because of that that number wisdom in result background planning problems. been a always that involved a the campus-wide EC: was and this I've in the council that, often served of infinite problems I using library graduate their somenow I Is degree? know. and the this? don't some library, of I but served about library activity nad, What ‘whoe those brianen they this don't just Tne librariesi: afford would tnem. give I would you an clomingstioindielfendiitne PETERSECSGOSS #2 professional and scnools availability than just have that nave a to a of a facility. for art facility to and For matter it that reviewed going to no have small school or the moving keep isn't there If the in that However, it. thnat desirable least the consultant the to from chairman the as off-signt of committee the that you that's do is was Picard committee, that are for on sat remember I possibilities. of you potential possibility a as to don't to with Having storage. remote order ‘stuff. difficult faced now we're know, in business walls more And library, building *a be can the allldithnis "into spiacemdplianed it, tne behavioral, ent i tolaccommodate we if of that students, room. example, house accreditation the architecture and beginning, to reference available, have professional material ready combined social is Berkeley. EC: Yes. R From I EC* the can see the been down to the Bancroft days sometimes to get the their experience On, the absolutely. storage same But tnis 81 and you We're is. and it. wait from material facility thing witn associated problems that, about talking I've whnere PG all Berkeley at library for two Richmond, going to nere. problem is an administrative PETER L. GOSS #2 RroblemcwHinen administration they want except EG: of BG: on you the this do, I care I But library the on about commiserate the what any library the it as operation a member of way do to ally tne vice happen improved. 82 at Or, be in Tnat things help can Coast, West and this president we mouth university we're great of rhetoriec our their where touting this the faculty. will Chicago wnere money of will money this keep to he's administration their between the our be the hand, think That is certain director administration about T that. would putting director's accomplishing afferd to to of the other the personality and going put with director's o ff talked going is to faeculty, not according isn't taken dieolin, institution better they've Fthe the on we're if on opinions feel the the to We dis. research it I biggest for faulted mouth we'd you in not going change. position regards any tnink the ean clout, a think with give that essence--nis wnich don't YontEbio thts siildes library take council? stands altileniatedt and I How but that Bl ng's be to think problems, to central quo. adviseory one and library. Well, administrative, got anything status Would say nhas to position ' I going rnetoric then are, is because until to have the a RETERE L SRGASSEE2 university and areas be that's that isn't an expansion about said PG: going it coming nere. little bit? Sure. Next our of have Would been you care session. [END OF 83 And TAPE] to will if tne a talk the of they'd tomorrow, problem. from of It doorstep nave We problem. conversation, kind will disciplines acquisition coming that problem. library an plus sciences areas this the on our solve to some university. dollars background must it strong course your of with other traditional problem the During a million fifty plop be and because formal the in be lopsided strong, weak university, E€: may incredibly not very I East, cultural about learned and I shnock that a RODA L TSIEMONDARSEMAY 2, 1988, AND THIS IS OUR THIRD INTERVIEW WITH PETER L. GOSS, PROFESSOR OF ARCHITECTURE, AND WE'RE RECORDING IN THE MARRIOTT LIBRARY, AND THIS IS PART OF THE COOLEY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM. [EVERETT L. COOLEY IS THE INTERVIEWER. TAPE #3] EC: Peter, let's llasErtime with on this connection, campus conversation. a little assignments so on. In comes that and encountered academic of problems about freedom you Have nere. and academic of matter ended bit things the of one faculty any us We freedom in to do teacning? your I the is bias, racial any our telling Peter, the of on activities frequently problems up your your up PG: pieck I wnat wish in the to any of talked being about if that's [laughter] theory political perhaps Now, way. any in complained wno've colleagues restrained teaching were they my never actually I've and classroom, free been always I've teaching. my in naven't different. E€: [Economies. PG: Or But architecture. I've institution fellow at there. I do EC: in What the about must taught in. University, Onio mean I no, I didn't nave this is taught as say I and history the than different is economics the same restraint on of major the teaching a thing what is I true could classroom. you colleagues 84 in the matter of tenure PETER L. GOSS #3 appointments PG or religion’ errace No, to not true in I my religion that on tne Is my is still kind of a up to I'm state a a most faculty that this? in in our typical in that our of this is college we problem with the quite are--there's that. predominate suppose. But issue knowledge? which I the sure any theocracy people your but situation. Has not knowledge, we're department, come knowledge. to that like departments, had, know in ever other haven't EC: anything We still frankly only are in one our Mormon department. though of universities across the country? PG With the tnink that's regards neard--I was been in on 1970, the faculty two nad PAndy Uit ant institution Yes, I know criticism whether this is heard that the I and and quiter that that when were who had it outside attract As of--0On matter because go to spreading a faculty trying they the typical. know criticized people EC: most don't hired to thnree that did that in some they've 85 fact, I but when true, university own they were consciously University the diinleivieot I came departments their West sense the in in St had had of degrees until I many inbred not it's had too intermountain the frankily of yean--I to that of hie ardiSofiNan to Utah. tnere has been accreditation PETER L. GOSS #3 review. PGS Yean. and My in education each more one than of one, particular degree spans three these if even institution. from the to different my knowledge that Most universities no degree of them institution at one nad from didn't that have which any they were teaching. E€ = Now, I'm teacning about this of PG: I EC: And one tnink of I less tnan terrible Gnplyes. BGE:: My pere trings in program Would you on consider achievements? as making in Wnhen six the people architecture. I came months known of Would is I Utan you of and Utah, I of noted from the right aware consider montns we away century there was and the back the early century, We're century nineteenth from nad or Tabernacle. architecture. mid-West 86 nere, nineteenth course six Coalville nineteentn the 1970, was the preeminently witn arcnitecture as in American century that nere after interest of nalf later the statement? twentieth dealing it incident area initiated architecture. major heritage true. EC: Utah upon fair That's you yeah. look a tnat your so, their that PG: aware and arcnitecture on. One of influence East and the of up- PETER L. GOSS state #3 New York/New England and very with this was very interesting to work. Coupled issue. One culture thning was eonecerned be of the a of and state, in the very really I led to another, about 1973 or '74, was nere, began I Architectural colleagues, and to other culture me, amazed of quite was is that at look to and a Many or four class within the architecture fantastic and That one place. you before three the was it taken nhad just throughout here being thougnt Stephanie trip little a in arcnitecture with along moving had Utah on program people 87 material Miller David offer Heritage. seemed me and about there got began thing But very that documentation little history, things communities, small very architecture of months three about maybe Mormon the take to me got Churcnill's the into efforts His workshop. a a together putting about which history, kind found I tnat was direction this the in delve of the of One that that this preservation its really case, kind to state. the was about This the the about that ground history. concern being fun of was noticed written environment. bit as the thought fertile concerned little that I I decumenting about very so and very tabout concerned to that area. know by I after years known 1it, as Utah's my people, many of and said, "Well, joked PETER L. GOSS what #3 are isn't you going anything "Well, that you'd class to do else be after to the talk since. I And do class. about." surprised." ever first it And I've about I been once There said, teacning every otner year. EC: From the what nas the native pattern Utahnns or are students are westerners tne West, One the on as aware, well Utah to it the are Fitzpatrick, similarly at the in present skiing West and Bob were we the But Bliss's outsiders. those who are time. 88 people and as to Something protecting think our the attracted Bergsmas, I of carry in do were who Don you're to was trying in has. instigators and Or because Utah that this, and stay to interesting founders Foundation vacations. California from amenities found either nere, want of third other the and on in the of work all I thnat one the the pnysical society. nistorical got people two-thirds attracted or coming Heritage of some you from probably been like wno tnings the of here-- Have drawn Utanns, vacations certain know they you say nhave maybe and enrolled enrollment? have native wno family on of would I are students students outside? botn. our the the the nad We've nere EC: been from coming PG outside--not Bobby you see environment PETER L. GOSS PG2 Yes. EG: Gale PG: Right. EG: Have PG: I #3 Dick. you think the found thnis? tnat's true. that people fact ustalfls*eneir lives, and nasn't get coming on We life because neck a lot fourth generation mountains on EC: a if flat Wnat I'm l1ike wnen plain for wondering, we were is of I you're, you Utahn, get back wnat The up of and in was tney ended and comfortable, suppose, not you've it, to these of significance might quite used get be could really are here or third a a certain that amenities until that later out fact you the their tnings. got very once to against ethic to come due all of these the living it kind maybe physical spectacular so are around and are Utah sight tnat So tnings. up than think lose up about about of brushing people got the I But you sometimes in aspects environmental many doubt it's people attractive no perhaps certain some they mind, attractive. a much that living in that been living of of wnat more of aspects witn part There's in. up or out find that naving thought the out. think lives, really desire I the thnink nad to live awnile. if Peter, trying 89 to some of interest it the not be citizens of might PETER L. GGSS #3 Spring City sometning quite someone Yeah, EC2 They PG: had this and it Western the dandy you know. attention ST were like. those up Yean. PGz AndSnot had when Williamsburg. They lot a think that it will that when you kind of than easier I notice cooler those fix rough old tnem is the take stone up. situation 90 top So of old stinking a a it--it's I attraction. another generation are pretty can see that for an throw houses I gas new a can you in probably probably aiidriafityold nhas living this that on tnat is been iint and stove gas why that tnings thnat trailer times old rural. damn pretty down. had have things to Spride, S bt the I the drawn torn e ivie of kinds still was was s funl. s Lilviineg or on house. it that a a and farm this thougnts II, versus it in as wnat thnose War World to station, shows It from of a They insulted newspapers the hell in soon communities, rural air-conditioner nice Well, Tparticularly furnace to were S clisSalparit s i of away house, stone service the shiat One move people think there. they old embarrassment. an EC: in hiinlaN it's right had yean. Fielah in they modern. nand-pump, their what unique, called wanted BG> and awhile--wnen damn living I say RETERNETHGASS {#3 rough--TV parts of very people go out the lot. And of and a state So get Lo a fix new in protection churches, and I Our Tabernacle. place a wanted center. The Tnere's no on strong more made economically viablewas certain have the you in not but living an various necessarily the in bulk those possibility comes along, stone house, and stick it that it's right same on attitude the buildings, public the of kinds old think of witnh meeting they this and has that of as viable, course, Of well.) situations to we and the like a be 91 know nas Preservation well as a years, the over been put to thing. of sort that. for kitcnen big a process. leaps big nave could recreation designed wasn't Tabernacle this nave they there, up people could they where lle Coalwviil tihie menititonied educational option series, up Syou dinners part and Yeah, very way Ward the old TV like on. ttniinlkineg wa s course trailer prevailed E€: of that don't so live weren't when course Sure. people it's isn't and the BG: PG: 1iIf of 'desire wnat country conditions. the E€: the us rpealistie the of shows 1it's proven thatculituraliliyaE the problem theocratic dissenting one, voice is that you s in don't Dbecause it PETER L, is GOSS #3 socially considered much we so to be easier Kknow uncomfortable. to an outcast, go that along we've To so with lost this the a be that, kind of group, lot of you're thing even very is though important things. EC: Wnat other items or major achievements PG s Well, let's EC: Your PG: Tne new the study Let's PG: Qkay, of course, Utar!s Historie Wikt Camter twhoe and is nistorian, material We education, same pernaps and it's Now way. do some designers in monograpns Utanh or 92 wno 1847-1940, was co-authored versed and fun a trained working of on to feel probably well on go to mine particular were another invaluable been would angle hnistorian. one from bit in with different arcnitectural interest an on architectural from It's Tom upon 'state been a quite think I and Wnat's project. this That well trained learned with 1988. things traditional based in. 1istthe culture. been Architecture, very approaches really working your state. the book Press, who folk he a Utan it's in the of title the Toml and arcnitecture of of than consider see. book get is you here? University Tom would book? new E€: events my the and architects known in Utah. PETER E&s L. GOSS Yes, #3 I've been mentioned noting some of the Shadracn Jones in--? PG: Shadracn Jones in EC: He name that was a aware of nis think, local I I was may be where architects. familiar old Utah, " and " then ‘you go looks to me like that there to do some work. in so wrong the you've Was the many on same but mason must would when in Spring wasn't I but down to I things. this, school over with, you Fairfield, City, have and gone it over nun. Un EC: Escalante to think that some It's an using type Some as of a early community model and documenting Beaver, work Tom's Scandinavian where particular a as stone And material. you have kind of a the a dressing and a type as it's or person building model. a the with invaluable coming masonry. who's another to on is Bonar Linda thnat. someone County been would I on done same model Scotsman stone 93 moved has influence man? it's Sanpete in same or been nave could It community. similarities be then and community a in worked some could man same the possibly studies good the it Is Escalante. Beaver see You one. another is from a class Willard? like PGs PG: recent involvement and encounter your in We're in working and doing beginning PETER L. GOSS to see #3 much more of ameliitteeburie. craftsmanship is due the other byt people William house, and there, and tof ablieN tnhe governments significance How many study, PG Well, But now we tnat begin in students like let's hiadabons, Linda see. their have nas I've years take will nave to doing we're office, a his down house to beginning that study these of but it to be things tnrough statewide a ‘all get to structures of local certified these identify for Frazer's ‘course, Of out. lived for similarities, these more Manti survey a at look things it much in-depth of some up know, and Thomas and doing was close-up sorting you and done. tnis EE: kind pick Linda Tom mason's stone the to this in in buying up the of documentation That's I and down community preservation survey house the By communities. ended in to all thnis tne a start study doing came takes really stone and Tom in living that. to another tnhen type, people. actual Bonar beginning eras, the was he first I wnen building these Folsom's contributions craftsmanship. began in Linda researcn. document of who while year tne work ethnic the and detail--1living in tne and tne area. you directed into this kind of done? had six fivesor ou on the graduate people, level, all I've women, PETER L. GOSS #3 interestingly various enough, things. preservation EG: Let's PG: Jerry see. Me ST BG: It as Jim to the Tiffany wno used to census maps, situation researcn and architect PG~ Some or have. of involved me on the state various in Mormon the stain There true. churches Randall Debby a did Society growth to old photographs, it's some old very actual arcnival tremendous great students your Either been and work field been it's and and publications, very housing of thne back and including glass Yean, a did woman see--a his in snuck not was families documenting builder the student. supposedly Historical the reproducing any have do in now good of temple. the in records, hands-on Now, of deal because interesting B glass Going City. mytns four--let's study to unusual. whicn minute at work interesting Park fepting a very Klening Window on worked Linda's under was some or good have was thesis that last a documented wife which stained on study in a disprove three been nave did the at design them gone here. Clayton's fact the to they've downtown. competition began of festival Clayton capital EC: Some office arts the with and SHPWETIE taken a on specific study? to through 95 papers or through PETER L. GOSS #3 assignments she is as looking competition, EG: Maybe We great if someone PGz in naven't. that need be graduate into are a student to for building, and and the up week mason a on wno material, there went on in and being to of was tne Kimberly he was wondering commercial important love 96 see someone William this a brick there a kind That building the There's is. to to well. kinds more but buildings, as yards, was he but site the and a we've brick speaking work, on the friend, our be I'll on of briek like out because brick burned growth Interstate nelp in-deptn areas the see least ereation design fertile to burned were Utah--still I'd I example, love Kaysville in so For real Allen's William by really at the Kaysville. industry brick here in a tnen that layers or of kinds various the leaders. course of many I'd do examples Allen so thesis wonderful brick more investigated. got of state. of at Historical Kessler the industry. finance two Jerry, private? There to the Utah and of looked last papers in case she at Frederick gone than brick Brick on the meaning the builder has in looking Kessler's rather the work or two, noticed mill They of the was the the papers she nave aspect, at but you Quarterly, Day. term was of industry lot of get into nistory those PETER L. GOSS areas E@ #3 as well. Anything else you particularly look upon of that proud as an area you've that been you're able to accomplish? PG Well, I've always Historic Sites think have we an now. nominations tnat very some good process. So mentioned EC: the state the other of out of with been very the near I wnhat on going had it's of here, We've had nomination that. As I there that on pressures general the of witn I kinds interviews, of kinds We've office national happy that. the nation. earlier political than the State tnink do state the to I to the Utan now. and has in preservation nere nature in some of in states. remember Yes, I real battles to wanted years, best I've the committee that the witn contributing of record less and committee lot of one be and for come that in to seems A track work excellent committee better probably my Committee an . excellent even enjoyed when in down come in I of involved was New Orleans and demolisn the where a reading whole about developers nistoric diisErieits PG Yean. ECi: I PG:: Let's don't think see, we've other quite areas. 9 had New that here. classes. I've introduced PETER L. GOSS #3 various new classes introduction getting off class. My to that class. year but What's 400 the per On my PG: B tinank I in We'd have at too pooped like the a of least needs I'm to percent be of architecture offer to of verysucecessful sixty school on although now been teach hours valt of to three be all with quarters able to do a it that. me one in the time that? impact. I all walks in the class. profession and good with Along I student remembered you PG: and carrying class, that It's enrollment tremendous some think The Do you know? goodness! percent EC's time. quarter. E€: up I someone. we're continually EC: and colleague credit the architecture tired, nanded the to over your body Well, yeanh. various funding been I of I Humanities. But life think for the to get and I the to 98 tnat of you good ten had a coming they've for thne architecture. must you suffered nave may have nad and on the to get for the those? monograpn very National various been or it's saying field was and students it's tnis five nave achieve to from due year goals some able wanted it each achievements, arcnitects, for teaching continually disappointments, naven't was out fortunate Endowment personal matters, I PETER L. GOSS just #3 haven't something I'm still more the Utah field in the Middle you kisndisi o fisewil and Onio, Athens, of getting back suburb, II an use I'll all nad you : mulseums , a shock art when you the big at life extremely culture tney and little community 15,000. Anytime It friendly. lock didn't of People me. for 3,000 information, 99 you people friendly, very a didn't tineliiriicar st outside wanted you was of a talked interesting lock their [Elitvie d i done to the a about of town anytning found I and town, very was Onio in student a and more with Finally, 15,000 small a was It experience doors, of population a a from move to situation. urban degree, master's my to I As them. around and began I to used was I degree degree, 25,000. town needed my publication. wnere area near educated less a to urban were Pn.D. my to small of quite it East. bacnelor's my for body was and cities, went to possible and an Was the in up grew I No. although changed War It's Utan? to came on, ‘oippor tunitiles etc. etc., galleries, out. well. as from al tur this matters West, hnere came Peter, have post-World California from get working for the in and to recently now example PG: I'm working East EC: able that interests outside been or you Post PETER L. GOSS #3 Mistresses, the a and straignt social station gas, the to talk Jjust didn't to to on Long and you up City York tend extremely was weren't. I EC: Kind of PG Well, people and they I mean not like you ride a Wouldn't still intleresting expected you than I actually New where then and New outside wurban some were people the be are people found I that people to just extended big "Oh, say, in Ohio a beard, because stop would that that but that, you tell giving town. may He that out case. society? closed yean. and telling opposite the found buddy," with, would But Utan." up, Mid-West, the was they for with deal to have tnere you're where what gas Coast, begin and the a like to Island And more cool I they bucks. East When in stopped the friendly. friendly you it line noticed was. on in very a be I office of kind up Utah, was. exchange that to going it ten found I situations, straight "Fill or was grown Having growing say, and It the when bucks nhim pleasantries. Englanders post street five out whatever that the guy family. on center you found scoop down pay you be tnem ceivil there 100 I but beard a wore they'd be stop wouldn't then, very them ride you needed a from saying "Hello", to people you. were It was and frank from into but very genuinely BETER LGOS SR friendly. until When they weren't them o B SNASE then the and the to they were believe but name's so ne'd in even my talk to me group their it of Dbeards. I realized and why, my with Romania faces it because celebrants they was of would beard the was that nhad 101 my have was a thnat guy not the I've case, the Mormon small to your way, saw surprise on difficult to some comparison in all of this came back to Utan came back I and I I reason had they could get beards and to out figure couldn't bi-centennial. grown Ohio, interesting, they thought You That ‘to like do?" strange shaven, only In the you cooled ‘have By little a so [laughter] the came be raised it mentality don't around bi-centennial. the after reversed that very it's Although them. again. looked I because if you found They that sincere. I you When town. and beard or therefiore you driving a with people. a to thnat of into dialogue, heard part from a Mormon immediately not do friendly Mormon. "Gee, wnat hello Utan, a are ride I've in a you said, Utah. observed to people and were ice-block Sitnink a so, say of They and weren't relationship need and they becoming kind the you conversation again, in sincere. beard, Utah, you anNoutisiden, begin to out interested over towns came found occurred, case I them on away with So many decided they PETER L. GOSS liked #3 them. tnat kind But of that's thing one wnhicn example I had of encountering never encountered before. EGC: And yet Peter, inquisitive; would your have PG: I is single on stood as West. was very as far It very the you are culture. get you who are society. I some on the Has that situations that a small room in we finished the towers was could a temple. nadn't seen and fortunate I building that in at there nignt. by I When looked up tne Sanpete Valley the sun was setting in and of an experience, and it was really 102 think don't I o'clock ten at see, nhell interesting. that an people--through other of group of escorted personally was I and in come completion the at Jacobson personally being was one remember I arcnitecture. culture the in I into. invited be interests my of the we I into experience that space time the a would others of where of wouldn't people in to and her--I a some invited Florence by Temple every this maybe because wonderful invited by nature student that been interest my Manti a the critical other some that's very also that have I pernaps think of case? have. and in rather the been are thought invitations outside, you very enjoyed I and thougnt interesting, that a tne lot. very, I PETER EC: L. GOSS What #3 about those of us opportunities wno are believe some greatest symphony, ballet, and so on. of ballet. as people the very interesting, Lake City York City nad I grew that in up the from I knew City Lake back this travel would reported of 103 of University my on male to his all mind way. this good of Althougn it's in Salt New the at ne and coast, children His to is That Utan. a was tnere lead the lot a patron a that knew I so as was ballet was I male see to been good. was there and the haven't wWas I nead Ballet Utah it with, it Eglevsky, got and a because the Andre Ballet some it's think ballet street be. to with was in symphony. of to the think Salt in stop would that Ballet, what compare regards City Eglevsky, Andre because in, do to Balanchine at ballet of the greatest hyped over and lot a child, a as to have the coming lot a have the I begin we choir, little thougnht I but that symphony witn it Sometimes residents outsider a York touted here? that? the didn't I ballet, scnool was George meet to got it New the of dancer of down right up grew all cnild a as spoiled an atitend dadn't i sSiineeN time greatest don't I sympnony. good As enjoy offered propaganda the to I instances. long the thought I Well, I of reaction your PG the and me, somewnere. So that I PETER L. GOSS when #3 I came here established nappy to that always mEs SEsMithat thougn On of in that modern affectediany as The Utah Se0 iin it DleibialNirolomi trat was PG Righnt. EC: Feewasnall PG Very think very Artists, in in a for way tell a fact, sculpture think don't parts other to used story longer no and soon of exhibit t hie N Hi s ColriiicialliNSioletlleibly el rarely modern of comparison in never I as still I medium. popular as because art was painting modern it but fine narration the It's and couldn't you that, and representational was painting of country. I here. went words, other In Associated painting symbolic a in art very amused is and was sometimes using the building. came long things of it a the of result, a and of oriientation’ popular, very it's EC: not was really a As possible. one that therefore, it; with I say from deviated you which I using kind trhat painting, had arts loecalily. purposes. churcn fiine movement or way me, conservative SuisipielctEANSERES St nle pedantic hand, amazed stning they ballet other the how that of the sort the knew tradition see. sculpture I would you ever see anytning there. traditiomal. didactic. And of 104 course, you know, wnen you PETER L. GOSS think #3 of the the rooms in realistic. in any the temple the That other It on. I caught count the modern being, you know, PG: Well, does comes you're and utilize Yet, wnat of some the tninking of Fred Eraamng a MR, Thatls could sense or moved the most into have ever probably hand--Don architecture the out it know, Olson noted. is in the and and An back BYU was the world more Markham raght. 105 nas Utah. to is many I think narrow- reflected People have in not offer. successful and the in and their for and U, the if world created state the narrow-mindedness of come arts that then resulted nas sense Utan? the the with true of in experience left never here problem after arcnitecture and of of from same This the go Utanns The experienced PGz to unfortunately arts I of a further to one inbreeding You of mindedness. the this that. education. in seem nere one some learn generations jt to willing really be moved doesn't perhaps that to not we on paintings gravitated as artists apply tnink back to never came the yeah. tnis I When and had even century. really How it orientation expressionist, EG: Temples, direction, twentieth E€: ceremonies, George architects--I'm Cannon got their PETER L. GGSS #3 EQ And thney came PG To do tne back altnough don't feel the that they profession very on experimental [END OF course both gentlemen, I But cutting edge their design in of really architects. opinions. the and type? creative different were of fine are have And very they may traditional yeah. they're that people think do traditional, those, Many to I don't of tneir in any architects and way. E€: You've spoken artists as PG: I are designers, a not from ne great arcnitect's sucn institution as and to work. out and to get maybe in the future who or from tne and Utanh, in to go or he may have not a been the knocking in have we that degree nis gets go to on conscious experience. that I great another get to a a in practice and Harvard generations 106 or he and There's that creative saying here or MIT most this just talented, the Utan saying I'm office, degree, get not I'm leaves usually nere, some nere tnat probably who's there contributions? say student good Are practiced Utah, in architecture. of school these I'd Utar. in educated of nave. they say would TAPE] training own their from significant some made OF traditionalists. performed outside some about being either nave ONE SIDE desire tnink the to that native PETER L. G@SS #3 Utanns, whethner outside, will they're be coming moressSitron syt is successful and in different of bucks well. of EC: PG but them nave. You spoke I'm family? How begin tney scnool \first to as going they end or reach the number ways as some rest. Some majority problems I haven!'t of non- of your to done the the social puberty and they nave had is that patterns. to be get a At realize they scale--before seem of diifficultiiestiin extreme of One many faithn predominant some tnat wnho about doesn't 107 thing one and have 1 own. my of any had yearss. five child one separation on--tnis be where this here, four of of the the complained of the future say nas and not thoat to other above about last experience because the could mowed nave even successful or maybe go in? noticed, are and Wnhat fit the I've younger wnat's But I who I or think measured rise bit I creativity in state profession be be sure they friends children easy will nhere. until. that tning tnhe who the past. could may step-children three my it do when' and suppose, little coming enildren I not a Utahns Well, contributing an you that people have, not make, think these back ways--through you I in hian S in S the arcnitecture in, educated problem. into their PETER L. GG@SS #3 teenage years, Gentiles and interact in for my School for Mormon of and of better of, but we nave nhave to Memorial, him are Mormon not new make nave were of about future the what and go not thnink, E 0l i o more attention in and friends, Judge tnis. We've friends these been think I that's the to him improvement and friends, much PEEEUSE pay to but ago, very I a Mormon are to going up from years who the brusn come been to in him relatives DElis an seen available shifting By work. school nis High suffering, was needing problems, disciplinary Memorial as doesn't were Bl ©iE DEEEUNE ©aly I'm thinking He do. to going were well. is kids they where and this have may not were who about Judge his of with out hanging concerned to He kids. the difficult to able of more than be aware education seen to none and I'm education and separation it's children and was to my a step-children family, I'm they my be and circles. non-Mormon against to Mormons, schools Mormon begins various one public ne the child sending thnat there very nealthy. EC: New, have community group or different you where nad experience it's dominated religious from living group nere 108 and wnere angle elittien by have you now another in living you live thnttc found at? it PETER PG: L. GOSS Yes, #3 yes. I Catholic know and what all to with schools. big school high when I and Jewisn I well and along the about tnis of aware in trying We may to have here as any long or effect. as I any social want not religion, but getting and are speecn nis the in of state we is it and more becoming whatever but aware, more did a nad view? our broaden Utan in provincialism becoming will we think you do on; there lack or pluralism The and or made just Peterson Chase since Recently a problem. a wasn't it. of might anotner of nhad exciting activities this in aware any ol and kids parents social friendship, gl schools I'm hnad Protestant friendsnips upon people as far as basically as quite that instance dating cnildren tneir was But and diidal€ brignt individual Now activities. of been getting did, public found impinge religion kid's I no In lot a tnat to have enjoyed people T don't Protestant. always as heavily I might one-tnird I was neavily, They kids went that say are. other and of fun. of lot PG the Catholic so and asmwelslia siCatholldcikidis e experience EC: community situations, what friendsnips lsddisi a one-third those know in percentages and of up Jewish, the one-third in grew I have 109 say thnat and I'm because having sure that having been as many not known PETER L. GOSS people wnole #3 as I have, social allow for person they of in or or tnings like and For thing. California it. stand they go to smoking. say, where 1in Well, drink people smoke, or And interaction. "My say, around I'm and Utah, to gosh. circles meeting 110 I feel witn anyone activities forth and that community the kind that of stories about they can't and California in and are people but they like they come to smothered nere. I don't Mormons. that of of of lots o/f wives it's nature beyond "Why?" drink don't Tney kind and of basis neard come who parties and like the you Utan feel being And integration going thnat I bishopries the by vie piviidi fifiilehilic that I'm that that involved back in taking possibility Whether on and literally =oelcial loaning witn not church babysitting a the does night the base. think I've and a in for of you're their day sitting Mormons they in exclude to out example, When night--not I ol tis i Berelh occur. and case friendships day another that. situation, of a that up sSuppose [ Eeolls church instances helping husbands to friendsnip one on the of wrapped tends that broadening more ‘thiedrSward it relationsnip, depending some ot Speojpilie WilER so is kinds societies literally suppose--but it of certain wno's are think structure integration a I ‘has ‘anything PETER L. GOSS #3 different to that, making But but we're ECk to And yet has got nave and be us I'm you to not a a a to this same runs accept thnat. I there'll be to fact that also a in that two last the a because ne will there's that object to university. or years of to be university because thing you among your think that it's [T you in the year tnat may be thne to president arise of the valuable is to citizen I be that So don't president tne a in 1it, tning. whole Mormon suppose I presidency. the to of least at or class second a It's along. get although fine thne accept I vice the has he since But Utah. non-Mormon, being a and administrations. that's M oimiom) s S AR R maybe have a three never fact I of that of they been down-side the the legislature, way Gentile keeps sense, dandy. going down non-Mormon nas and good, is and university, traditionally that affairs academic overcome fifty at that suppose a the that's fact here this Mormon the witn deal and that's sort University the of president fine g hu i SE e N awiainie SR Tinia it that 2050, you you? GRS to that now is hundred break administration nave that system lot know year. our have bt of sure in encountered NioF S don't aware hear do I about broken colleagues, PG: me." talking nistory, able offer and the be PETER L. GOSS in the he has #3 situation to deal university found to to with interesting and national searcn that, and over by gosh, onEEE or aB of after who being here nad tnink don't wny go changed. about You been you and and and could to a had nave change or it, learn liili2 to I siimil ar that. whetner operate a and in was where case someone and it boards of in s ditiuaiciitonice don't I so abruptly, so came he The left picked they in mean anywhere get superintendents scnool come situation, Utah There's montns. turns milieu. left have may our slieihiofeil have this to going he it tihies Hotel just in Foundation the for have operate. in Heritage search, changing got must that about search sitting can't operate always baloney here, things this always have we back They three education nigner he's tnat for I've national guy credentials, The that this this wasn't national great work. didn't you a all and after he reasons did they money thing is other the of the of get groups colleagues come can't out found nhe wnen various Mioirimint o 8 S lloloikalE suspect I abruptly, to state. director recent my here's They leave. they one this and this to because superintendents out order about decided CiolEbie s the that for him with But talked looked backyard one in operate. mentioned and deal it the know should system, T now be I BETER L. GASS #3 guess. EG: Are thnere that PG: you of your I can't any PG: Okay. ECi: Okay. PG It's EC: And will Peter things like to that get down think a lot the of Tnank on a be have not the tape off hand. Goss I'll However, think of opportunity and you care you thank covered as part maybe We've when sometning. feel free to giving your time. make to. Peter for pleasure. will able an that I Well, right territory. have additions this anything transcript you'll been of be to thinks in placed read he in nas a OF 1518 archives years what made nere. So you. [END the few mucn. B we comments? review Yes, otner would covered EG: some TAPE] and people contribution thank you very I