John Urgo, Salt Lake City, UT : an interview by Rob DeBirk

Transcript (22 pages) of inteview by Rob Debirk with John Urgo on July 22, 2008

Urgo is from Brooklyn, New York, and joined Green Corps, after studying Environmental Science in college, which moved him around the country a lot until he applied for a job with HEAL Utah in 2005 (which tends to focus on nuclear issues). He believes that environmental problems are justice problems and is active in power relations. His work in Green Corps involved a lot of organizing and volunteer recruitment, so then he became the Outreach Director for HEAL. As an organization they don't come up with plans and policy but more so educate the public to work towards change and watchdog big industry such as Energy Solutions. They're trying to keep nuclear waste and reactors out of Utah. He is a strong believer in renewable energy. Utah Environmentalist Oral History Project. Interviewer: Rob DeBirk

JOHN URGO Salt Lake City, UT An Interview by Rob DeBirk July 22, 2008 EVERETT L. COOLEY COLLECTION Utah Environmentalist Oral History Project U-1930 American West Center, Environmental Humanities Program and Marriott Library Special Collections Department University of Utah THE FOLLOWING IS AN INTERVIEW WITH JOHN URGO ON JULY 22, 2008. WE ARE CONDUCTING THE INTERVIEW IN SALT LAKE CITY AT THE AMERICAN WEST CENTER. THE INTERVIEWER IS ROB DEBIRK. RD: John, where are you from? JU: UhI am from Brooklyn, New York and found my way to Utah through college in Southern California, a couple months in Nebraska, a year in Philadelphia, and then [ went to Utah. And um I guess I could explain how— RD: Yeah what were you doing? JU: Yeah. Um [ha ha] after I uh graduated college, I went um into an environmental uh fellowship called Green Corps and it’s a yearlong fellowship in environmental organizing where uh you kind of get placed with environmental organizations working around the country on various campaigns. So um the first three and a half months that I was in the program, I lived in Lincoln, Nebraska and I was working on a Clean Air Campaign with a group called Clear the Air. And I was sent there by myself to put pressure on Senator Ben Nelson of Nebraska to try to stop some of the Bush Administration’s rollbacks of the Clean Air Act in 2003. Um I was not very effective [ha hal. RD: Good job with that. JU: But uh, but I did love working in Nebraska and in fact I ran into my roommate from Nebraska in Green River last week. RD: Randomly? JU: Randomly. RD: Yeah? JU: But when I left Nebraska I grew a handlebar mustache and bought wrangler shirt [ha Totally randomly. Lives in Moab now. ha] and I walked into uh what’s it called, Rays? Haven’t seen him in five years. John Urgo 22 July 2008 RD: Yeah. JU: The burger joint in Green River and I mean he had, he would be the only person in the world who would recognize me at that point. He was like, “John Urgo.” Anyway, that was crazy. RD: That is crazy. JU: Um but yeah. I loved Nebraska. I found that kind of cliché about the Midwest, was pretty true, like people were really down to earth, no pretense about anything. You know most could care less about what I was working on, but were happy telling that to me, which [ appreciated. Yeah there are not a lot of clean air issues in Nebraska. I wasn’t sent there because of the issue, I was sent there because there was a political target to put pressure on. Um after that [ went to Philadelphia and I worked for the Sierra Club for a year in Philly, um around the 2004 elections and turning out so-called environmental voters to vote in the election. And then when I was done with that, I was looking for more work in the environmental movement, in organizing specifically, and uh I was looking at jobs in California and also thinking about going back to New York and I came across HEAL Utah and the process and just um kind of decided that Utah needed, probably needed more people working on environmental issues then California and New York did. So I came out here, having driven through the state twice, not knowing a single person, and thought sure Utah, sounds good [ha ha]. I"d always been just amazed by the sheer beauty of the state, from the mountains to the desert, but— RD: How did you begin getting interested in environmental issues? So prior to going to Green Corps? Or what was your experience and interest? John Urgo JU: 22 July 2008 Um I majored in environmental science in college um but I actually started out as a physics major because I have this uh strange idea that because I was paying so much money to go to a small liberal arts college, that I had to do the hardest thing possible, so I chose physics. But after a couple years of uh spending all my time in a basement physics lab, I decided I wanted to do something that impacted people more and that had more just real world immediate and um [ mean physics is important, but more important applications then physics did. So I switched over, I ended up having a focus in math, because I had all these math credits. urban sprawl. So I did my thesis on mathematical modeling and Yeah, but [ um hadn’t really gotten involved with anything in college, like activist groups or clubs or anything like that, so I came into this work completely new to it and you know all through Green Corps and after college. RD: Why did you move over to environmental science then? If you I mean, and then Green Corps following that. JU: Yeah well I moved into environmental science because I wanted to do something that I felt made a difference. RD: Yeah. JU: Um so that’s why I made that switch. RD: But why, [ mean if you had the experience with environmentalism and with activism, why all of all the things you could have chosen, why environmental activism, why not um fair wage or some other social justice issue? JU: Yeah um I mean I’d always been somewhat interested in the issue in environmental issues to begin with. [ mean I remember in high school I was in the first AP environmental class that was ever offered. So I always kind of had that interest but one John Urgo 22 July 2008 reason [ think to me is that environmental issues kind of encompass everything else, you know labor, equal rights, there’s kind of an all encompassing aspect to environmental issues and you kind of work on them from a lot of different angles. I got really into the organizing aspect of it, um really during my interview with Green Corps. And with Green Corps I really just kind of took a shot. You know, I was like I have no experience with this, I think I’'m kind of interested in it, so I’'m going to give it a shot. Um and it was the only job I had applied to at that point, like you know during my last semester in college. Um so [ went to the interview weekend and um one of the interviewers was giving a presentation to the fifty or so people who were at the interview weekend and he said something like, ““You know it’s not about who’s right or wrong, it’s about who holds power.” And that just really struck a chord with me and the reason that I do this work and continue to do it now is out of that kind of sense of justice and for me I’m passionate about building power. Like it could be about lots of issues, but [’'m passionate about building power around environmental issues. RD: So once you started with HEAL, what year was it that you started with HEAL? JU: 2005. RD: Okay. JU: Yeah. RD: I wonder if you could juxtapose your experience working in uh Nebraska, Philadelphia, with Salt Lake, you know? JU: Um yeah [ mean Nebraska was pretty brief, you know just three and a half months. Um but like I said, I definitely um just appreciated the value that people have of again no John Urgo 22 July 2008 pretense, no kind of “BS” about anything, really just down to earth, straight talking people. I think I find there to be a contrast between that and Utah were you have you know just talking to the general public, tabling at events or whatever, you have a lot of people who are very superficially nice and kind of pretend to be interested in what you’re doing but could really care less. There’s not that depth of interest or involvement. Um I was in that international food store the other day, down on like thirty-third south and uh the guy who runs it was like, I think he’s from Egypt, he’s like, “Yes, Utah. Tall mountains, flat people.” [ha ha] You know, not to say that that’s across the board in any, in any respect, but I think in Salt Lake I’ve definitely found that to be a bit true. Um, Philly’s just a really gritty city. Like um we were canvassing a lot of lower class neighborhoods and I don’t know, there wasn’t a whole lot of interest in environmental issues but people were definitely concerned about the election and were willing to be involved because of that and that was kind of the draw. RD: Okay. How did you come to the conclusion that environmental issues encompass social justice issues, encompass issues of quality? Um because that’s a particular style of environmentalism and it’s not really an incredibly popular one— JU: Mmhm. RD: At least not yet. I mean it’s increasing but how did you come to that point? JU: Um I think again through the just kind of justice, you know building power type of thing. We have this, you know there’s this uh tragedy of the commons model in environmentalism right? That if you have a public resource, it’s going to be over used. Um but I don’t think that’s really the situation that we’re in most of the time now. It’s really a theft of the commons by big corporations, you know by big money, and that’s a John Urgo Justice thing. 22 July 2008 It’s like why should corporations have the right and the access and the ability to pollute and you know abuse our common resources. Those should belong to all of us. And that you know, that’s a justice issue. Yeah I mean to me it’s not just about like protecting beautiful places or conserving land or you know cute animals, like I love all those things and their important to me, but um I don’t know I think it’s really about people. It’s like it’s, we’re making the decisions that are determining the fate of our planet and to be effective it’s all politics. We need to influence people to make the right decisions and we build our power through people, you know we don’t have the money, we don’t have the big corporate backings and what not. We have supposedly the people in power. RD: And this is where organizing comes in, in your love of organizing? JU: Yeah, yeah. RD: So, well um were you doing any organizing, I mean in Philadelphia you were doing Get Out The Vote, that’s not really organizing, so this was kind of your first organizing job, is that right? JU: Yeah [ mean [ was doing it in Nebraska. I was yeah pulling together meetings of citizens and getting people to sign petitions and it all culminated in a meeting with coalition partners and the senator’s chief of staff in Nebraska. But yeah in Philly it was you know Get Out The Vote, it was really all about volunteer recruitment, knocking on doors, finding other people to knock on doors, you know get people to turn out and vote. So yeah, [ mean this is um, [ had that year of training in Green Corps but it wasn’t until I came to Utah that [ could really put, that it kind of all came together. You know and that John Urgo 22 July 2008 I could put some of what I learned into practice but also you know build on that and really try to learn how to organize. RD: So how did it come together for you? What kinds of things did you learn or add on so that [inaudible] hadn’t known before? JU: Um I think the biggest thing was, has really been in um messaging and learning how to talk to people in different audiences and how to again [ha ha]— RD: Cause I’'m thinking of a handlebar mustache [ha ha]. JU: Ha ha. How to grow a good handle bar mustache to make people take you seriously. No but that’s part of it. It’s like how to um just approach people within the frame that they’re gonna understand or that your message is going to resonate. And you know I remember when I came here and I would, and I’m the Outreach Director for HEAL Utah, so my job was to interface with our members and the public and I read our action alerts and our postcards and you know whatever else. And I remember the first, and fundraising letters, and I remember the first couple that I wrote were just you know super long and I was new to HEAL so I was trying to like um pull together my understanding of HEAL Utah’s history and mission and put that out to people. [ha ha], you know people don’t want to read a lot of words. Um but it was all terrible Um things have to be really piffy and to the point, so I mean I’'m still learning it but definitely took me awhile to get that and it, you know that’s probably been the most valuable kind of skill that I’ve developed here is putting the kind of messaging together so that now whenever we submit a quote to the paper or really when anything is written here, like I edit it or it comes by me. RD: Mmhm. John Urgo JU: 22 July 2008 You know. Um so that, I guess to step back and to also why I do this, why I organize, one of the reasons is it challenges me. I’m not an extroverted person um by any means but I think I’ve become more so. Um again in college didn’t get involved in I don’t think I barely talked to many people either, so you know, I do this because much. it pushes my comfort zone every day. Um and it’s miserable a lot of times. When I was in Green Corps I thought about quitting every single day, um literally every day I thought I’m terrible at this, why would I choose this [ha ha] to do as a job. Oh cause I think it’s important and I think it makes a difference, okay but I suck at it, alright but it’s important. RD: Ha ha. JU: Um so yeah the messaging but also being able to package that, in terms of writing well but also speaking well and communicating with people. And, and lot of different audiences you know, it’s um having just worked on election issues in Philly, I came to Utah partially I was like that’s the reddest state in the nation, that’s where people are needed. Um I think part of that is just you know I’d been focused so much on electoral stuff but it’s you know it’s a skill that you need to develop to talk to people in different places and different mindsets and audiences, from legislators to the general public, from every county, you know whatever it is. So what are the issues that you’ve worked on since you came here? RD: Yeah. JU: Uh we’ve worked on, the first thing, my third day at HEAL Utah we passed a ban in the state legislature on B&C hotter uh classes of low level nuclear waste. I definitely had a lot to do with that ban. RD: That’s off to a good start. John Urgo 22 July 2008 JU: Yeah, day three [ha ha]. RD: Immediate change. JU: Haha. RD: Ha ha. JU: Um so but watch-dogging Energy Solutions, the largest commercial nuclear waste Yup can rest my laurels immediately. dump in the country is always a big issue for us and since I’ve been at HEAL, the three and a half years that I’ve been here, this company has morphed from being a single uh radioactive waste dump in Utah’s west desert to now the largest full service nuclear waste company in this country and perhaps the world. Um so it’s become a much bigger uh thing to work on and um we’ve, we used to do a lot more work on nuclear weapons testing and preventing resumption of weapons testing, working to cut funding for nuclear weapons uh every year in congress, which we still do some of that but definitely not as much as we used to, although last year in 2007, we worked hard to stop the Devine Strike, um non nuclear weapons test. Um— RD: Why are you doing less of that work? JU: Yeah overtaxed. Just overtaxed? Um there’ve been fewer fights in terms of the funding, somewhat. Um it’s still, we still bring it up though when we go every year in April we go to lobby in DC, so it’s still a talking point. I mean I think it’s really important in this state because with all the nuclear issues and energy issues that we work on, um what people’s direct experiences with that, is with the nuclear testing you know and that whole kind of you know betrayal by the government, the lies people were told about the safety of the testing, the real you know deaths and sicknesses and impacts to people here still um, still resonate with people but it’s definitely a much older generation that’s kind of fading John Urgo away. 22 July 2008 They get it, they make the connection between nuclear testing and you know building a nuclear reactor in Utah or having the largest commercial waste dump in the country in Utah. I mean they make the connection whereas I think a younger generation it’s, there’s just kind of like um I don’t know, they’ve forgotten that past almost. You know it’s yeah nuclear is clean and it’s like you don’t have to look very far in the state to know that it’s not and especially here, that’s a history and a memory that we should have cause if it, well and it’s happening already, but when we go back into mining and milling and we’re going to be the ones that are impacted the most severely. So yeah I don’t know, I think we work a little bit less on it you know partially just as a resource issue, we don’t have a lot of staff and we’ve been doing a lot more work on the energy front. Just you know coming to realize that we’re never going to be really successful in stopping the waste that’s coming here or the impacts from mining and milling until we change the energy problems that create these problems in the first place. And so a lot of our focus has been on well we’ve always been against this but we need, we need a solution to be for. RD: Mmhm. JU: And that’s you know why we’ve embarked on this ambitious energy effort to, I just drew all over myself [ha ha]. RD: Ha ha. JU: Oh sorry. Um and this ambitious energy plan to create a completely uh renewable energy uh generation portfolio in Utah by the year 2050. RD: Was that at all a typical point to come to? Or a contentious issue here? Kind of move, cause to me and I could be wrong, but to me this seems to be, there seemed to be a 10 John Urgo 22 July 2008 marked difference between responding, and I guess it is more reactionary, but doing responding to what’s going on in the legislature, um responding to the possibility of renewed testing or nuclear power generation in Utah, to going and actively trying to create policy and mold policy? It seems like it’s almost as though there’s a move going on from being an activist organization to being almost still activist but more think-tanky. Does that make sense? JU: Yeah except were not— RD: Think-tanky if that’s the right word? JU: Yeah except we’re not really a think-tank. I mean we’re not developing the policies. We see our role as implementing the policies. RD: Okay. JU: So still working using our strengths, which come through organizing and working with the media and training citizens how to be more involved in the democratic process to implement these changes. You know we’re not coming up with the plans, we don’t have the brain power to do that [ha ha]. But it definitely was contentious, I mean even within our board you know, there are people that have been on the board for awhile, since the inception of HEAL really that you know see us as the watchdog and you know we still have that role but they see our role as you know HEAL Utah is on top of what’s going on, they’re the watchdogs so I don’t have to be as much as an individual you know? Or I feel comforted that there is a group out there, you know that’s making sure Energy Solutions isn’t bringing in all types of different waste to the state. Or you know whatever it is. So yeah it was definitely contentious but it was also supported in you know just as long as we didn’t lose that watchdog role of yeah it’s important to offer a 11 John Urgo 22 July 2008 solution and to be for something too, rather than always against something. But you know I think the watchdog role is really important. I mean you need watchdogs, you need people who are going to make sure these companies don’t get away with anything because, everything, because nobody’s paying attention. RD: So, what are your interactions like with people up on the hill? When you’re lobbying? JU: Or what kind of reputation does HEAL have up on the hill? We have a pretty piss-poor reputation up on the hill. Um and I’m not really sure where it stems from. Um— RD: Jason. JU: Jason [ha ha] yeah. No but Jason was really respected up there as an individual, but still we’re the reactionary group. something. We’re always going to be complaining about Um I don’t even know what other epithets have been thrown our way up there but I find it pretty interesting cause that is definitely not the mindset that I go up there with, you know? Um but yeah most legislators would probably rather not give us the time of day. Um I find that most legislators don’t want to hear from their constituents to begin with, even though that’s um their job. Um but you know we’ve been told by legislators, “If I hear from another constituent on this issue, I’'m never going to vote your way on anything ever again.” RD: That’s like the opposite of what— JU: Yeah, which uh you know when you run into that you kind of, on the one hand you question your effectiveness cause you’re like well what I’'m trying to do is organize people to turn out and contact these guys up there but when they do they’re telling me 12 John Urgo 22 July 2008 they’re never going to vote my way. But at the same time you realize that well it’s their job to hear from their constituents— RD: Yeah. JU: And I think the calculation in this state has been you know, we can kind of cow-out to industry and let happen what may because there will be no political consequences. You know there’s been, I think it’s a pretty cold calculation that yeah that’s okay you know? We can let whatever hazardous industries we want in here because you know what people probably aren’t really paying that much attention and even if they are, I’ll still get reelected. RD: Well could you talk about maybe some of the things you’ve been working on recently at the hill. So, or what things have been successful on the hill that you’ve backed or been a part of? What hasn’t? And why was one successful and the other one not— JU: Successful. Um— RD: You know like that third day. RD: Haha. Yeah you know I don’t really know why that was successful [ha ha]. No the ban on B&C was, on B&C waste was a culmination of a four year effort up on the hill to educate legislators, there was a task force, and then in the end um well and also generating a lot of public buzz and outcry um so that in the end, when Energy Solutions um became Energy Solutions, when Steve Creamer bought the company, he decided to abandon um Envirocare’s efforts to stop the ban. Um but that was a result of the huge public outcry that had been garnered over the previous four years. much about the legislative history. 1S Um but I don’t know John Urgo 22 July 2008 RD: Mmhm. JU: One um somewhat successful effort that we were involved in, although it’s hard to kind of call it a success, was in 2006 Energy Solutions introduced a bill or had a legislator introduce a bill to um allow the legislature to override the governor if the governor didn’t want more nuclear waste coming to Energy Solutions but the legislature did, if that makes sense. Previously the governor and the legislature both had to sign off on expansions at the company. So this bill passed the Senate and it passed the House and we um got a lot of calls in to Governor Huntsman’s office, there was a lot of media attention and buzz around it. He vetoed the bill and then it came back to the legislature, and during this whole time we had been um canvassing in districts where we thought we might be able to exert some effective constituent pressure. Um but it passed, the Senate overwrote as veto and then on the last day of the session, the House failed to come to a vote because they knew that they couldn’t override the veto. Um but in that, in those ten days we had collected a bunch of petition signatures to one representative um Kory Holdaway, which we presented to him on the last day and he said, “Wow this is a heavy hammer. You know I’m on your side now.” Or whatever, I forget what he said. So even though it was a loss, I mean the bill passed and Governor Huntsman vetoed it, we were able to stop it from being overwritten. So that was somewhat of a victory. Um of course the next year, in a loss [ha ha], a straight out loss, Energy Solutions came back with another bill and this time they said well okay we’re just going to take out completely the governor, the legislature, and the county in all future decisions over expansions um or taking hotter waste at our facility. And that bill did pass and Governor Huntsman did not veto it and we lost. 14 John Urgo RD: 22 July 2008 So now if Energy Solutions wants to bring something in like this Italian waste um how do you exert pressure? regulators? JU: So you no longer focus on the legislature, you now focus on Or— Yeabh so this isn’t really a legislative issue because the legislature doesn’t really have a say. You know they’re not a decision maker in the Italian, in the foreign waste issue. Um so yeah it started through federal regulators and just um you know there was a comment period on whether or not the Nuclear Regulatory Commission should, did I say Nuclear? Nuclear Regulatory Commission [ha hal]. RD: You’ve been drawing on your hand again. JU: Haha. Uh should allow this foreign waste shipment to come in and so we work to get thousands of Utahns to submit comments to the NRC. Um we did that, we, HEAL Utah on its own collected over two thousand comments I think, that we submitted to the commission. Um I don’t think that the commission really cares necessarily about those comments but what it does do is generate a lot of buzz and papers write about it and you know um elected officials see that there are a lot of people concerned about this issue. Um we then work to pressure Governor Huntsman to pressure a regional oversight board called the Northwest Interstate Compact, to say we don’t want foreign waste coming into the compact. And that actually was successful and the compact um adopted a resolution um saying that yeah they don’t, foreign waste isn’t allowed to come into the compact. Energy Solutions of course then sued the compact saying you have no authority over us [ha ha] to make that decision. the fall of 2009. Um and that’s supposed to get a court date, now not until So it kind of pushes this whole thing off about a year. 15 John Urgo 22 July 2008 Um but we also are working, so that’s kind of all the regulatory stuff, we’ve been at the same time pressuring Utah’s Congressional Delegation to come up with legislation to ban the importation of foreign waste into the US and it’s funny, I mean last fall when this whole thing began, we contacted Congressman Matheson’s office and you know tried to raise concerns and got a bit of a blow off, you know just oh send me the info, I don’t know if this is a big issue. And this is from his staff last fall. Fast forward to today, he is the sponsor of a ban on foreign nuclear waste in Utah. Um so that’s pretty cool to see, now our job is getting the rest of Utah’s Congressional Delegation to support a similar ban in the Senate and also in the House. Um that’s a challenge. Congressman Bishop is a former lobbyist for Envirocare um and Senator Hatch and Bennet have basically said they don’t have any problems with Energy Solutions plan cause it’s just low level waste. RD: Okay. Well so what is HEAL working on right now on the renewable front and that side of things? JU: Yeah I'm working less on the renewable side of things, more on the nuclear power issue. RD: Okay. JU: Um there’s a State Representative Aaron Tilton, he actually lost in his primary, so he’s out but still a Representative at this time, who has formed a company to site a nuclear reactor in Green River, Utah. And that would be the first nuclear reactor on the Colorado River system, um the first in the Intermountain West, um the first really in the Southwest, except for Palo Verde which is in southern Arizona. So it’s a pretty big deal. Uh we have, we have concerns about you know the water that it’s going to use, it’s pretty 16 John Urgo 22 July 2008 dry in Utah, second driest state in the nation I believe, um and nuclear reactors require an immense amount of water. But our kind of two broader concerns are that this, uh the entire nuclear fuel cycle has drastically impacted this day, from the mining and milling, which began in the 50s and 60s, sickened thousands um left millions of dollars in clean up costs to tax payers you know and just alone in the Atlas mill tailings down in Moab. Um to you know nuclear testing, we’ve been impacted from, on the whole cycle, and the uranium that was mined and milled on our soils has come back to us as fallout and as nuclear waste. So developing a nuclear reactor in Utah just furthers these problems, would encourage more mining, more milling, more waste. You know we fought for a decade, to keep high level nuclear waste from coming into Skull Valley and now we’re, if this project goes through, we’re basically going to create a de facto high level nuclear waste dump in Utah, in order to send power to California. Cause none of the power from this plant is really going to go to Utah, most of it is going to go to California um and other states. And the final issue, just on the energy front is that you know from a policy standpoint, nuclear power just doesn’t solve any of the energy issues that we’re facing right now. It can’t meet the demand that we’re faced with immediately, because reactors take ten to fifteen years to come online. It can’t make an impact on climate change for similar reasons, I mean we need policies that are going to make a difference implemented now, we can’t wait ten to fifteen years. And it’s incredibly expensive; it’s not cost effective to do it. Um unfortunately there is a good deal of support for the plan in where it’s going to be built, in Green River, in Emery County, uh because people see it as bringing jobs and economic development to the county and the county is starved for that. Um so um the 1 John Urgo 22 July 2008 county has basically signed off on the project and said yeah we’re going to sell this land to the, for these nuclear reactors. River. Possibly up to four of them might be built in Green Um we’re going to sell the land, and the problem with that is once the county does that they basically lose all local control in the project, it’s all in the hands of the federal government, because once the land is sold it’s just up to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to decide whether or not this thing gets a license. So, that’s why we’re going down to these areas right now. Not cause we think we’re going to change the hearts and minds of people but because at the very least we want them to know that after these decisions are made in the next couple of weeks, you are going to lose all vocal control over this project, which I think is a pretty big deal. I’m not sure that most of the people that I’ve talked to are even aware that the county has made these decisions. Um you know and that’s also what we see our role is at HEAL. It’s not just the issues that we work on but to engage people more fully in the democratic process. RD: So I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about that, how you continue to engage the democratic process because I’ve heard a number of people speak very highly of HEAL Utah and your organizational abilities. Um you know people have remarked to me about how impressed they are with the amount of people you can get commenting, the amount of people you can get showing up for meetings. So why is it, or what is it that you’re doing that makes you so successful at organizing these people? As opposed to, well I don’t want to compare you to other organizations, but what makes you so successful in getting your membership up? JU: Um a lot of prayer [ha ha]. RD: Ha ha. 18 John Urgo JU: 22 July 2008 Um it’s always, [ mean it’s always surprising to me, the number of people who turn out. I never know how it’s, how it’s going to work out and I never have the confidence of yeah we can get a couple thousand comments on this petition or you know we can turn out a hundred people to the capital or whatever. Um so yeah, I mean I think what we do best or what we try to focus on at least is packaging information so that people can understand it easily and take action easily. You know it’s not just like here’s this important thing you should know about, it’s here’s this important thing and here’s you know a two minute thing you can do about it. And that’s really important too. So I think that’s really what we focus on, you know it’s like what, what are the steps you can take to feel like you’re making a difference and just making it easy for people. So ifit’s just like you know in our email alerts we include, you know the email address and the phone number for your state representative and a sample you know little script that you can say on the phone when you call. That makes it easier, gives people more confidence to kind of take the action. Um and we just try to be really thorough about everything, you know if we’re doing a press conference or rally, I mean we’re on the phones and we’re calling our supporters and members and getting them to turn out. Um so, yeah I don’t know. But I definitely don’t feel like we have a lot of support, you know I mean we have like maybe close to five hundred members, like contributors, um and about three thousand people on our list, which you know seems like a good number but I don’t know, it’s not the Sierra Club or you know other groups that have larger lists. RD: So separate from the issues that you work on, or maybe you can’t separate them, what are some of your own personal environmental concerns? 19 Just this, you’ve last John Urgo 22 July 2008 through the Bust Administration, looking forward, what kind of issues are you concerned with? JU: My number one uh issue that I kind of think about is energy really and um I just, really believe in the plan that we’re getting behind now, which is one hundred percent renewable energy by the year 2050 or sooner. I think it just kind of has to be done. I mean climate change is definitely a concern of mine, you know we can’t, uh can’t rely on our fossil fuels anymore that we are so dependent on now. And you know really through working at HEAL, I’ve seen the real impacts of nuclear power whereas if [ hadn’t worked here, I’d probably still would you know be keeping it on the table as yeah it’s a clean energy source that you know we’re going to need in the future. But you know it’s definitely not clean and you know more the akiles heal of it is just the cost, which is some sense is a good thing that it’s so expensive cause you know solar’s expensive too but now we can choose. You know do we want our energy from the sun? Or do we want to create dangerous toxic nuclear waste that’s going to be around forever and dig holes in the ground? So you know whether it’s at HEAL or whatever I do after this, I definitely want to keep working on energy issues cause it’s a big um I think it’s the defining issue of our generation. You know we’re, we’re way behind the ball on this and there aren’t you know, we’ve, we have no federal policies that are moving us in the right direction, um you know globally we’re in a lot of trouble. RD: Mmhm. JU: Um but I think it’s solvable. It’s a huge issue. I mean I really do think we can meet all our needs through conservation, efficiency, and renewables, if all of the money, all of the billions of dollars that we’re pouring into nuclear power and fossil fuels, went towards the 20 John Urgo 22 July 2008 renewable side of things. Or even if there was a level playing field to begin with you know and wind and solar were allowed to compete on the same uh playing field as fossil fuels and nuclear power. So that’s a big issue. Um you know outside of that my personal interests kind of lie in like urban planning, kind of transportation, cities type of stuff, you know. With most of the global population now urbanized, most of it, and suburbs, these, a lot of these issues are at the root of our energy problems. I mean our transportation infrastructure, the way we build our houses, you know whatever else, so um I definitely see cities as playing a huge role in swallowing these energy issues in the future. Um and then I really worry about the fish [ha ha]. [ mean honestly our oceans are— RD: Any particular fish? JU: You know any of the tasty ones [ha ha]. No I think our oceans are in a world of hurt, just overfishing and pollution. I just saw something about you know plastic bags, another thing about plastic bags today and how there are so many millions of plastic bags in the oceans and whatever else, but I think it’s an issue that a lot of people aren’t really paying attention to and global warming and coral reefs and all that stuff. That could, I don’t know it’s just crazy to think that we may lose the vast portion of our coral reefs or the you know species that are in the ocean. RD: That boggles my mind. So how do you not get incredibly overwhelmed when you start dealing with that many issues, issues on that scale? [ mean any one of those issues is overwhelming on its own but when you’re looking at them comprehensively how do you— JU: Idon’treally. I mean it is overwhelming but the alternative is doing nothing and you have to do something. And so for me it’s, I’ve tried to at least focus on what, what can I do that makes the most impact and honestly I don’t know that I’'m doing that here. 21 John Urgo 22 July 2008 You know there are definitely jobs or issues or whatever that I could probably be working on that would have more impact but for the time that I’ve been here, I do feel like I’ve had an impact. So yeah it’s incredibly overwhelming but if you just are overwhelmed and you sit back and do nothing, it is just defeatism. that overwhelmed. So I usually don’t get I mean yeah it’s a lot of stuff but you’ve just got to, I'm still, I think I’m pretty much a pessimist in my personal life, you know like I don’t really think things are going to work out, but I’'m an optimist for the world [ha ha] and I think these problems are solvable um if we work on them. And I’ll live in a little shack somewhere, destitute [ha ha]. RD: Ha ha. JU: But that’s fine. RD: The entrance would be safe. JU: Ha ha. RD: Cool, well I think I’'m going to stop it on that note. JU: Cool. RD: If you don’t mind. JU: Yeah. RD: Is there anything that we didn’t get to that you want to get to or anything we left out that you feel we need to include. JU: RD: No, no. Okay [ha ha]. END OF INTERVIEW 22