American Folklore Society Meeting, October 16, 2004 (Part 1)

The first part of video recording American Folklore Society (AFS) meeting. This meeting is a part of Polly Stewart's strategic grand launch of her oral history project, Utah Urban Pioneers Folk Music Revival, seizing the oportunity provided by the fact that AFS meeting was held in Salt Lake City for the first time in 26 years. In this meeting, some of the principals, who participated the revival during the 1950s and 1960s, were assembled for he first time to reminisce their experience in that historically meaningful time. It is also the first time that Polly Stewart introduced the definition of the movement as "Utah Urban Pioneers Folk Music Revival," and the musicians as "Utah Urban Pioneers"

Folk musician Rosalie Sorrels, Hal Cannon, folklore scholar Polly Stewart, Barre Toelken forms a panel discussion to reconstruct the history of folk music revival in Salk Lake City, 1950-1970. They share their personal experiences of getting interested in folk music, finding teachers and learning to play instruments and sing. The discussion gradually expends to include the national folk scene and its relationship with the Utah Folk Scene

Utah Urban Pioneers Project A Conversation with Utah's Urban Folk Revival Pioneers: Rosalie Sorrels and Friends American Folklore Society Meeting Salt Lake City, Utah Saturday, October 16, 2004 Session 17-13, 8:15 - 10:00 a.m. Session jointly sponsored by the Folklore Society of Utah and the Politics, Folklore and Social Justice Section of AFS Principal speakers: Polly Stewart, Rosalie Sorrels, Barre Toelken, and Hal Cannon. Later speakers from audience: Peggy Bulger, Alleen Dotson, Dave Stanley, Ed Reber, Lani Herrmann, and Elaine Thatcher. SUBJECT INDEX Partially transcribed by Polly Stewart from recording made by Spy Hop Productions, and furnished by AFS, March 17, 2005 Fully transcribed and transferred to Transcriva by Laura R. Marcus, June 10, 2009 Copy-edited by Laura R. Marcus, June 10, 2009 RECORDING 1 OF 2 Page 3 Polly Stewart introduces session, makes acknowledgements, gives project background Page 5 Polly Stewart talks about her experience growing up in Salt Lake City and her involvement with the folk music scene there/learning to play folk music/mentorship from Rosalie Sorrels/participation in the Intermountain Folk Music Society/playing in the band, Polly and the Valley Boys Page 6 Barre Toelken talks about his family's folk music heritage in Massachusetts/picking up on ‘commercial' folk music/coming to Utah and returning to his traditional musical roots/meeting the Sorrels and other local folkies and impact on understanding of folk music process/enjoyment of Utah folk music scene Page 11 Hal Cannon talks about the roots of his interest in folk music/learning to play, involvement in East High School Folk Music Club, playing music with friends, attending sessions at Cummings Men's Wear shop in Salt Lake, hanging out at the Sorrels' house, openness of the folk music scene to young people/participation in Stormy Mountain Boys Band and Deseret String Band/continued involvement in folk music Page 16 Rosalie Sorrels talks about her family's history and their musical and literary heritage in the West/influences that led to her becoming a folk singer and storyteller- tutelage of Dean Harold Bentley at the University of Utah, which bolstered her career as a folk musician/founding of the Intermountain Folk Music Society/Smithsonian Folkways album, The Unfortunate Rake, first album on which she ever appeared/involvement as folklore and folk music student and teacher, and impresario in the Utah folk music scene/time at Wayland Hand folklore seminar at UCLA/hosting folk music and poetry gatherings in her Salt Lake City home/Salt Lake City as a conjunction of music, poetry, theater and politics/ties to the larger national movement/place in the continuum as a storyteller who uses music Page 23 Polly Stewart reminisces about Rosalie's role as a connector and mentor/opens the floor for reflections from the audience Page 24 Peggy Bulger remembers the Saratoga, New York folk music scene and seeing Rosalie perform there for the first time/Rosalie shares her memories of Saratoga as a cultural center, thanks to Caffe Lena Page 27 Alleen Dotson speaks about her musical experiences growing up in Kentucky (and work assistant to D.K. Wilgus)/continuity of folk music in her life-being interviewed by Rosalie, teaching folk music to her children Page 31 Dave Stanley talks about his college days in the early 1960s, when he would take the train to New York City, hang out in Washington Square in Greenwich Village/talks about the inclusiveness in the folk music scene there towards young people/arrival of folk music scene in Washington D.C. Page 33 Lani talks about her exposure to folk music at the University of Chicago-U of C Folk Music Festival, "wing ding" gatherings, hootenannies, and the formation of the Folk Music Club at the university TRANSCRIPT Partially transcribed by Polly Stewart from recording made by Spy Hop Productions, and furnished by AFS, March 17, 2005 Fully transcribed and transferred to Transcriva by Laura R. Marcus, June 10, 2009 Copy-edited by Laura R. Marcus, June 10, 2009 RECORDING 1 OF 2 [Sounds of conversation] Polly Stewart introduces session, makes acknowledgements, gives project background Polly Stewart 00:28 Okay. We're ready to begin. I'd like to welcome everyone to, ah, a conversation with Utah's Urban Folk Revival Pioneers. My name's Polly Stewart, and as it happened- (aside to someone: yeah you can see that, did you). Well we, we worried greatly about what the title would be and there really isn't any way to, to, to (sighs) to describe what, what we are, but we-I guess we could call it a geezer gathering. [laughter from audience and panel] 'Cause that's what we are- Rosalie Sorrels 00:58 Speak for yourself! Polly Stewart 00:58 We're talking about things that happened forty and forty-five years ago, in Salt Lake City, and I'm actually one of the, sort of, pioneers, because I was in, involved in the folk revival, what came later to be known as the folk revival movement. There is a lot of definitional problem connected with the term "folk reviv-urban folk revival;" every single one of those terms is problematical and I think we may be talking about that, but what we're also going to be doing in this session is what-what amounts to oral history, it's going to be personal reminiscence of, of these folks and myself, who were there and were participating in whatever it was that was happening, in Salt Lake City and the Wasatch Front, around the late '50s and early '60s. I would like to introduce the participants. These, there are, these are the only-only the ones I could gather, there were others, but I couldn't snag 'em, but anyway, this is Barre Toelken, Hal Cannon, and Rosalie Sorrels. And each of them will be requested to just talk a little bit about their own experience and what they have to say, and it seems to me that we're going to have personal experience, but we're also going to have the possibility for talking about the larger picture-what was going on in the United States at that time, what was going on in the world at that time-the, the cultural scene, a lot of things that that really are very important to what eventually ended up happening here. And so, there isn't any "format," except I'm just going to ask people to speak. The audience is going to be invited to participate. We don't have any mikes, so we don't need to worry about mikes. If you want to say something, you just speak up nice and loud, and it will be recorded. This session, because it is a "conversations" format, is going to be recorded, is being videotaped, courtesy of the American Folklore Society and all the plenaries were done this way as well. And they will be-ah, ah we're told that they will be made up into DVD format packages for sale, so that if you wanted to get a copy of this, you could do that. The background of this session is that last-over the course of several years there was a project that was headed up by Dave Stanley, who's here in our midst, who is the editor of a book called Folklore in Utah. And you've probably seen it, it's just been issued. And it consisted of a number of chapters written by Utah folklorists and researchers about the study of folklore in Utah. I happened to be a press reader for the manuscript and so I read it and what I saw was that there was some, sort of, peripheral mention of this movement in Salt Lake City that was so very important forty and forty-five years ago but there wasn't any story about it. And I realized that the reason for that is that this is completely ephemeral. Only the people who had a direct experience and memory of this time would have any idea that it ever happened, and there was a-we'll all be talking about this in various ways, but there was a-we, we were on the wind, I mean, you know, we had, we had a little newsletter and this kind of thing, but where, where are the newsletters now? So the only material that these researchers had for Dave's book were people who were able to get into the Harold Bentley Papers at the University Archive, and so he had something to with this, but he-there really was not that much around. So I pitched a fit and I said, There's gotta be a record of this, this is too important to just not exist. And so, I talked with John Alley at the USU Press. And I don't know what's-how this is going to happen but I felt it was so important at this AFS meeting, here in Salt Lake, to gather the people who were involved in this and get a record of their reminiscences of-and, and start building an oral history compendium so, so that some scholarly work can be done, and some publishing, to sort of make up for that lack, and that's why we're here today. I would like to say that tonight, at-there's going to be a demonstration concert of the things that we will have talked about today. It's going to be at 9:30 and it's going to be right across from here, in the Sun Valley Room. This concert is not on the AFS program; it was made possible at the last minute through a very generous grant from WESTAF, which I'll talk about in a minute. And so, we aren't-it's, it's really there for you to know about-I may put up a little sign, but basically, it's just a matter of your coming at 9:30. It's going to be a brief concert, going to end at 10:15. So it's just going to be a demonstration of some of this stuff that we talked about today. I would like to thank a lot of people for making this possible, first of all, the American Folklore Society and Tim Lloyd, who put up with my screamings, for months, you know, you know. And he helped, he, he really helped us shape this, he made it possible. He did a lot of stuff for us. And I just really appreciate that. Ah, also, from the Folklore Society of Utah, Rhonda Walker Weaver was very helpful with helping me figure out what to do. Kristi Young, Elaine Thatcher, all of them were very wonderful. And then this-the local staff of AF[S]-or local volunteers, local arrangements people, Carol Edison and Craig Miller-were just yeo-persons in helping me put this together. It was-everybody knew that it was important to do. And everybody wanted it to happen and so it did, in spite of all kinds of scary things. The WESTAF-Western States Arts Foundation [Federation], through the good offices of Elaine Thatcher, gave a small grant which made all of this come together at the last moment. And I'm very, very grateful of that, for the-ah, so the Folklore Society of Utah, WESTAF, AFS, and all of the people connected with that are what made it possible. 'Course all these great folks who came, as well, and I'm sorry that I couldn't get more of them, but they, they're elusive, those old folk-folkies. (laughter) And we also have a guest in the audience, Joe Hickerson, who is also an old folkie, from way, way, way back, and so, I ex-I expect that not only will we be talking, but there'll be an opportunity for you all to speak as well, if you have something to say. The, the format, really, is very simple, I'm going to talk a little bit-each of us will speak at however much length we desire, and I'll you know, we'll try to keep it even, more or less, but each of us will talk about our-this is reminiscence, this is how we got into folk music, how we-what, you know, what our experience was. Polly Stewart talks about her experience growing up in Salt Lake City and her involvement with the folk music scene there/learning to play folk music/mentorship from Rosalie Sorrels/participation in the Intermountain Folk Music Society/playing in the band, Polly and the Valley Boys And so I'm gonna begin, and I'm just gonna talk for a few minutes about my own experience as a member of what later became, what we later understood to be called the urban folk music revival. And I grew up in Salt Lake City, I lived in the house on Second Avenue, and our family moved there in the early '50s and they're still there-my mom is still there. And when we were, ah when I was growing up, we had Burl Ives records in our house, and all my cousins sang them. We sang them at, traveling and when we went to the canyon, and all this kind of thing. So Burl Ives songs were just part of our life, and we also sang rounds and we also sang heart songs. We sang other kinds of things as well-"Drink to Thee On[ly]-Me Only With Thine Eyes," and we just sang all kinds of songs-but among the songs were these Burl Ives songs. And I came to realize that there, was a kind of thing called folk song and I as a teenager I learned how to play the guitar, with chords, and so I fancied myself a bit of a folk singer. And by the time I was a senior in high school, I was actually-I performed at a high school audito[rium], you know, thing. And so, I could sing "The Fox," and I could do things like that. So when, in the 19-I guess it was about that time, when I became aware that there-Sorrels family lived up the street, ah Rosalie and Jim and their children. [CORRECTION: It was really "the late 1950s." In early 1959 my folks invited Rosalie to an evening at our house. I was still fifteen, a sophomore in high school.] And so just by a, a very amazing coincidence, we were two doors down from the, the, I guess you could call it the epicenter of the, the energy for this movement that happened. And Rosalie was wonderfully, she was al-I guess you could say she was my mentor, or-I don't know what the right term would be, but she helped it, she helped me realize that I could do this kind of work. She used to if she had a call for somebody to come-if she wanted, if somebody wanted her to give a concert, and she didn't have time for it or something like that, she would call me, I was one of the people that she-she had a little stable of people that she would call. And I was one of them, and so, I got an opportunity to be on television for the first time because of that, and I learned how to perform in a more or less professional manner, under various conditions, and it was through her that I, that that became possible. I thought seriously about being a folk performer and ah, but I guess about the late '60s, early '70s, that was when I sort of had to cross the Rubicon. It was going to be one or the other. And I thought about the, the very difficult life of a female folk singer, particularly. And I thought, well, all things considered, maybe graduate school is a better choice. [lone chuckle is heard from the audience.] And so I stopped thinking about being a professional, but you know, Rosalie made a professional life of, in folksinging. So really, I was just participating in the first big concert in 1961, and I was the editor of the newsletter of the Intermountain Folk Music Society, which was founded as a way of fostering activities here in the Valley, and I just, ah, remember the tremendous excitement. I will say, also, that I was a member of a group called Polly and the Valley Boys, [laughter from audience] which consisted of myself and Bruce Phillips, or Utah Phillips, and Dave Roylance. And the way that came about was that Bruce and Dave had been in a group called the Utah Valley Boys, spelled B-O-Y'S, on their card [chuckles from audience] and they had been together for two or three years, there was a, there were various changes in personnel [laughter continues], but they had gone finally to the Galax Folk Festival in Galax, Virginia, in the summer of '64. And it was a long and arduous journey, and by the time they returned, the schisms within the group were so complete that ah, [audience chuckles] that one, you know-two of them sort of sneaked off in the middle of the night and joined up with another bunch and formed a new group. And Bruce and Dave were sort of left out in the cold, sort of scratching their heads, and so they asked me if I would join them and we became Polly and the Valley Boys. And this was before there was such a thing as Valley Girls, and so, [laughter from audience] it did not have that con-[pauses for laughter from audience] that connotation. Barre Toelken 12:38 You were an honorary boy. Polly Stewart 12:39 I was an honorary boy, that's right, yeah. Ah, so we had about a year and a half or two years of doing some singing out. And so I had that experience as well, I learned a lot of Bruce Phillips's songs. And we did other songs as well, and we were an old-time string band. So that's my, my history in Salt Lake Valley, in, on the folk music scene ends in 1966, when I left to go to graduate school. So that's really what I have to say at this point about, sort of, how I did it and what happened and all that kind of thing. And I'd like to just turn the stage over to Barre. Barre Toelken 13:09 To me? Barre Toelken talks about his family's folk music heritage in Massachusetts/picking up on ‘commercial' folk music/coming to Utah and returning to his traditional musical roots/meeting the Sorrels and other local folkies and impact on understanding of folk music process/enjoyment of Utah folk music scene Polly Stewart 13:09 Barre-Barre Toelken! (laughing) Barre Toelken 13:11 Well, I represent a somewhat earlier, ah thread of this. Ah, I grew up in Massachusetts, learning folk songs from my grandparents and my mother, and thinking that everybody in the world sang songs. I mean, they weren't just folk songs, they were sea songs-mainly sea songs, and but (?) they were Gay '90s songs and everything. Um, and my three cousins and I sang all the time, and we, we had to move out of the valley we lived in because they turned it into a reservoir, and so moving out was imperative. (laughing) [laughter from audience] And we moved to Springfield. And then there, we tried to sing outside at the playground, on, on the playground, and, and got into a fight almost every day, because of singing- 'cause the boys in Springfield, about thirty miles away from where we, where we grew up, boys didn't sing. And so, we were proclaiming that we were something that we weren't (?), we were trying to show off, we were trying to do all kinds of things. And, and we suddenly realized that everything that we knew, that we thought was everyday songs, nobody else knew. So we quit. And we didn't sing for a long time. Um, until this bird, Burl Ives, came along! (laughing) [laughter from audience] And then we, somebody said, "That's what we should be singing, we should be singing Burl Ives songs. So we all learned Burl Ives songs, and all this stuff from records instead of, instead of, we had this rich repertoire from our parents and grandparents, but we'd never used it, because nobody liked that kind of stuff any more, and we sang Burl Ives songs. And all the way through school, I sang Burl Ives songs, and I even came out west and sang Burl Ives songs. And finally, there were a few more people-Harry Belafonte and others. [laughter from the audience] But in 1965 or '64, I can't remember which [NB It was Fall 1964], Miiko and I moved from Oregon to Salt Lake City, to take a job at the University of Utah. And we lived for the second year on Q Street, which was-I, I'm mentioning this because this is, you'll find this creepy after a while-we all lived within a couple of blocks of each other. [laughter from audience] And-for no particular reason, we lived down the street, and so I got to know Rosalie, and I had met her before at a couple of things. And we got to know Polly, and Polly showed up in my classes, and Bruce-I don't know, maybe he didn't live anywhere? But he-[laughter from audience] Polly Stewart 15:48 Well, he did have a place down on Emerson Avenue. [laughter from audience] Barre Toelken 15:51 Emerson Avenue? Yeah. Polly Stewart 15:52 Yeah, yeah. Barre Toelken 15:53 But, there we were, our little community of people. I, I was sort of holding out for the old songs, now I was starting to re-learn them again. And here was somebody making up new songs, here was somebody who knew both-and, and she knew both, too, because she learned a lot from her grandfather. And we had a merry time. And I realized the difference between regional folk singing and national folk singing when Joan Baez came to town-you probably remember this? Polly Stewart 16:23 (laughing) Rosalie Sorrels 16:23 I'd forgot it. (?) Barre Toelken 16:24 She showed up- Polly Stewart 16:24 Yeah, that's right! (laughing) [laughter from audience] Barre Toelken 16:26 Yeah. And she came to the door, and Rosalie answered the door, and she s-Joan Baez looked down and said, something like, what, "I wouldn't wear shoes like that," or some . . . . ? Rosalie Sorrels 16:36 No, she didn't, she said, "Where did you get those shoes?" Barre Toelken 16:39 Oh! [laughter] Rosalie Sorrels 16:42 I got them at the Chalk Garden- Barre Toelken 16:44 (laughing) Rosalie Sorrels 16:44 In Salt Lake City, and she didn't believe me. (laughs) [audience laughs] Barre Toelken 16:50 Well . . . so anyway, we, we-all, the only thing I want to say is that there are several schools of folklore, but the one here in Salt Lake that was real, you might say, it was really germane to the folklore group, folk song group, was Rosalie's house, because every year, among other things, every year at Christmas time, she had a party, and people came by and could decorate the tree. There'd be a great pile of stuff there, and you could pick what you wanted and make up your own decorations. I remember one time, somebody decorated the tree with two-two balls that blinked off and on, and a brass rod of some sort, with a thing at the end-[laughter from audience] ah, and a (laughing)- Rosalie Sorrels 17:35 That would be Gino Sky. [nom de guerre of Bert Clays, a poet and old friend of Rosalie's from Idaho]. [audience laughter] Barre Toelken 17:36 Okay. Rosalie Sorrels 17:37 (laughing) Barre Toelken 17:39 And I remember one time when Bruce-I have to call him Bruce Phillips, Utah Phillips you-is somebody you know. He was huddled over in a corner and he wouldn't let anybody see what he was doing. And it turned out he was, ah, he had a little figure of a man, I guess, cut out of paper- Rosalie Sorrels 18:00 A child. Barre Toelken 18:01 And he had it-huh? Rosalie Sorrels 18:02 A child. Barre Toelken 18:03 Yeah-a child. Okay, well-well okay, it was a child. And then he had, ah that surrounded by several fish- Rosalie Sorrels 18:08 Whales. Polly Stewart 18:09 Oh whales, yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 18:09 It was A Child's Christmas in Whales. [audience laughs] Barre Toelken 18:18 So . . . so we had- Rosalie Sorrels 18:19 (laughing) Barre Toelken 18:20 It was more than singing, it was a, it was a, it was a, proto, ah group, (laughing) that we, experienced together. And Hal was in, in that, and just about everybody. But it was one of the- Rosalie Sorrels 18:32 (laughing) Barre Toelken 18:32 The most fetching times in my life, because I could see all-all sorts of folklore, from the stuff that was being made up, to the stuff that was being passed on, and she was right at the middle of it. So . . . . Rosalie Sorrels 18:44 (laughing) Barre Toelken 18:45 That's (inaudible). Polly Stewart 18:46 Thanks, Barre. Hal Cannon talks about the roots of his interest in folk music/learning to play, participation in East High School Folk Music Club, playing music with friends, attending sessions at Cummings Men's Wear shop in Salt Lake, hanging out at the Sorrels' house, openness of the folk music scene to young people/participation in Stormy Mountain Boys Band and Deseret String Band/continued involvement in folk music Hal Cannon 18:46 Well, I came from a little younger generation, ah, in the mix. In the early '60s, probably about 1961 or 1962. I went to my cousin's house, a guy named Dave Pollei, and he played me records of Jesse Fuller and, ah, a record on Folkways called Mountain Music Bluegrass Style, and I was, it was like a conversion experience for me, I was just-from then on, all I could think about was playing music and, and I didn't know who to-I found one kid at high-or at junior high, named Brent Bradford, and we started a little group and sang Blue Sky Boy covers and, and then we found the Intermountain Folk Music Society. I started taking guitar lessons, um, on Saturday mornings from Jim Sorrels at their home, upstairs. And, and I got very involved in the folk music society [Intermountain Folk Music Council, IFMC, 1961 - 1966], but I came from a, a really, pretty devout Mormon family. And so, it was interesting, you know, by 1964, I was supporting Barry Goldwater in the, in the election, [some laughter from audience] and everyone was hanging out with hated Barry Goldwater. . . . [more laughter from audience] and so there was this-it was an odd thing. I mean, I remember my friend Brent Bradford and I trying to find an empty-something, an empty bottle that sort of looked like a wine bottle, so we could drip candles-[laughter] and put it in the room and listen to folk music records with the lights turned low. (laughing) [laughter from audience] And so that's-you know, we, we just, we had this very romantic vision when we were just teenagers, about, you know, what we could be part of. And I have to say that even as thirteen-, fourteen-year-olds, we were, we were really allowed into, into this group, in a, in a very whole way. And it was, ah, amazing. I remember Brent Bradford was elected to the board of the Intermountain Folk Music Society, he was fourteen years old. And, you know, for us, that was just incredible empowerment, to be part of this group of people. And Rosalie always invited me to her parties. When the Georgia Sea Islands Singers came, or when Guy Carawan came, or when the New Lost City Ramblers came, I got to hang out with these people and, and on the side I got to babysit Rosalie's children, which was . . . a handful. [laughter from audience] (laughing) I have to say! (laughing) Rosalie Sorrels 21:21 There were five of them. (laughing) Hal Cannon 21:22 There were five of them. But it was a, it was an extraordinary experience for a young person who was sort of struggling with my religion and my, and my faith. And at the same time, just being totally compelled by this beautiful music and, and by a scene that I was just captivated by. I remember we'd sit-there was a coffee house that opened in town, and we didn't think we could go in [transcriber's note: The Abyssie, aka Son of Abyss, 1965-66], but we'd sit outside and sort of watch, and wonder what was going on inside. And it was all very sort of, ah, we were in but sort of outside of it all. When I became a sophomore in high school, at East High School-oh, by the way, Dave Pollei was your classmate- Polly Stewart 22:07 Yes, yeah. Hal Cannon 22:08 And you had brought, both of you had brought Jesse Fuller to high school, right? Polly Stewart 22:10 Well Dave, ah, brought Jesse Fuller to the campus. But he was-I, I, he was a pal of mine, I, you know- Hal Cannon 22:17 Yeah. Polly Stewart 22:18 I really liked him a lot. Hal Cannon 22:18 So that's-I mean, there was ties- Polly Stewart 22:20 Yup, yeah, yeah. Mm hmm. Hal Cannon 22:20 We were all pretty close. Polly Stewart 22:21 Yeah. Hal Cannon 22:22 Ah, but in, when I was a sophomore in high school, [laughter from audience] we started the East High Folk Music Club. And Polly's younger sister, Heather, and a friend of mine named Ralph Dewsnup and I started the club. And, as sophomores, it was the largest club at East High School. It was just a gigantic club. I mean, there was-you know, this was in 1964. And we put on a big-I found this this morning [displays a handbill from 1964 or 1965]-a big concert. [sound of paper] Polly Stewart 22:53 Oh-wow! [the audience wows and laughs] Hal Cannon 22:55 And it, it included the Utah Valley Boys, with Bruce Phillips and Bruce Cummings, Rosalie Sorrels, and then us kids. And I'm not sure if you sang on this concert or not? Polly Stewart 23:04 No. Hal Cannon 23:04 But . . . . Rosalie Sorrels 23:05 And many others. [audience laughs] Polly Stewart 23:06 And many other-no. Hal Cannon 23:06 Yeah . . . . Polly Stewart 23:07 I wasn't among the many! (laughing)y Hal Cannon 23:08 Many others. [audience laughs] And here's an article [displays clipping] with us sitting around Rosalie Sorrels-and I'll pass these around if you want to take a look at 'em. But we were very active in promoting folk music when we were just in high school-all sorts of different folk music. And it was a pretty exciting time for us, because we really got to be involved in promoting concerts. I mean I-in my later folklore work, I mean, I already knew how to put a concert, I knew all about sound systems. And it all came from, you know, this early experience being involved as a teenager in folk music. I mean, getting Sing Out! Magazine and reading the latest on Pete Seeger being banned from the Hootenanny show, and . . . . . . . . There were really-for our, for, for me, there were two centers of this. There was the folk music center of it, which was Rosalie's house. And then there was the bluegrass center, which was at Bruce Cummings' men's clothing store. It's in a beautiful brownstorm, ah brownstone, downtown. It was called Cummings Men's Store-beautiful clothing. And he was a little older, he was-maybe older than you? Polly Stewart 24:21 He's-Yeah, he's a little-about five years older than I am. Hal Cannon 24:24 And he was a very fine mandolin player but-and he loved bluegrass so much, that we'd go down, summer of ninth grade, and just play music all day. Customers come-would come and want to be waited, and we'd be-he'd say, "Wait! We-I just have to do this break on 'Rawhide.'" [audience laughs] So we played music all summer at Bruce Cummings' store. And then he went off and became a vice president of Tiffany's or something. Polly Stewart 24:47 (laughing) Really? (?) Hal Cannon 24:48 Yeah, in New York. Yeah. So that, that's sort of my s-my story in it. A late-comer. Polly Stewart 24:54 Well you developed into the Deseret String Band later on? Hal Cannon 24:57 Later on- Polly Stewart 24:58 Yeah, mm hmm. Hal Cannon 25:00 We had the Stormy Mountain Boys- Polly Stewart 25:00 Yeah. Hal Cannon 25:01 In this concert-we, we had a group that's still going, called the Stormy Mountain Boys- Polly Stewart 25:04 Right, mm hmm. Hal Cannon 25:04 With Brent Bradford. It's almost forty or fifty years old. I'm not in it any more. But we started the Deseret String Band, and started doing Utah folk music. And some of our inspiration were Rosalie's early recordings of Utah folk music and collections. And also, the Hubbard and Fife collections, and Cheney collections. And we started doing old-time music. But that was in the '70s, ah early-well 1972 when we started. We went for about thirty years. So I'm still at it, still playing music, and I haven't changed that much! (laughing) Polly Stewart 25:39 Thanks, Hal. So, Rosalie. Rosalie Sorrels talks about her family's history and their musical and literary heritage in the West/influences that led to her becoming a folk singer and storyteller-tutelage of Dean Harold Bentley at the University of Utah, which bolstered her career as a folk musician/founding of the Intermountain Folk Music Society/Smithsonian Folkways album, The Unfortunate Rake, first album on which she ever appeared/involvement as folklore and folk music student and teacher, and impresario in the Utah folk music scene/time at Wayland Hand folklore seminar at UCLA/hosting folk music and poetry gatherings in her Salt Lake City home/Salt Lake City as a conjunction of music, poetry, theater and politics/ties to the larger national movement/place in the continuum as a storyteller who uses music Rosalie Sorrels 25:44 Um, I was born in Idaho. And I had a marvelous family, really amazing family. Polly Stewart 25:57 Where in Idaho? Rosalie Sorrels 25:58 Where in Idaho? I was born in St. Luke's Hospital in Boise, Idaho. And my family was very diverse, and enormously literate, all of them. Very interesting people. My father's father [Stringfellow] was an Episcopal missionary, who, who came from Culpeper, Virginia, and-at the turn of the century. And he came alone, car-carrying a birch bark canoe. And I don't exactly know how he met my grandmother, she was from Quebec, and I know they met in the West. She actually came from a family that had something to do with starting the Tribune here in Salt Lake City, and they were married in Salt Lake City. But, but that family was into exploring the western part of the country as well. And they lived for the first quarter of the century in tents and lodges in Montana and Idaho. And Arcata, California for some unknown reason, I can't figure out how they got that far, but they went everywhere. They went in pack trains and, and in boats. I have wonderful photographs of them, because my grandmother was a journalist and a photographer. And she and her sister Elizabeth took photographs for stereopticons and for newspapers in, in the early part of the century. I have a great picture of my great grandmother and three of the sisters, my grandmother isn't in it 'cause she took the photograph. (laughs) And the-all of them, in, in Stanley Basin, Idaho. There's not anyone for 500 miles in any direction. But they are all dressed to the nines with hats and gloves. And there's a baby carriage sitting there in the midst of all that wilderness. And, and I thought, what could have possessed them to dress like that?! (laughing) In this wild place. And my, my mother's father came from Ironton, Ohio. He was very Irish, his name was James Madison Kelly. And he was an adventurer, he fought in the Spanish-American War. He went to Alaska in the Gold Rush. And his wife was a Methodist from West Virginia, she was a head nurse at the, the Christ Hospital there. Not too many years ago, when I went to sing in, at, at the Mountain Stage concert stage, in West Virginia, a whole lot of people I didn't know even existed showed up with many photographs of my grandmother when she was a young woman and a nurse, with her hair all piled up in three tiers and a, and a little absurd, twenty-times-folded nurse's cap on top of the whole arrangement. [audience chuckles] And I, I just love that, I didn't know those people were there. And in any case, they all ended up being in, in Idaho. My mother's family had a self-sufficient farm in Twin Falls, which we all know is an oxymoron. (laughing) And, and my grandmother and grandfather bought this piece of land, which I now live on, ah the year I was born. I'm seventy-one. And I live in a handmade cabin that my father cut all the logs for and made all the bricks for. And I have a really great continuum through this family. And all of the music that I know from my family came from living-I never thought of it as being anything except part of life. And I actually know how to make butter in a churn and like Jean Ritchie, I knew the little "Come butter, come; come butter, come"! (laughing) [audience laughs] I knew how to, to make everything. We didn't have any money, so we had to know how to make everything. And before I went to school, I think I knew twelve mythologies, because my mother and my father thought that was important too. And I knew how to read, thank God, before I went to school, or they would have probably ruined my ability to read. (laughing) [audience laughs] But-by suggesting that I read something all about Dick and Jane, instead of Harun al-Rasheed, who I was very attracted to.(laughing) And so I had all of that music in me before I began to listen to Burl Ives. You know, Burl Ives was a favorite of my mother and father's, Joseph Marais and Miranda, we listened to that. But we also listened to Veedoo Sayow (?) and Jussi Björling, we listened to everything. I wanted to be an opera singer, I didn't want to be a folk singer. I, I never had the equipment to be an opera singer. But I-I can still sing part of the prologue to Pagliacci, because my father sang it all the time, and I have no idea what it means, [audience laughs] but I know [sings operatically, in Italian, several measures of aria] See? [audience laughs] How could you forget that? (laughs) [audience laughs] And we sang art songs, we sang every kind of song. And I got read to or sung to every night of my life, everyone loved Shakespeare, everyone loved (laughing) Edgar Guest, you know, it's just absurd! (laughing) This amazing hodgepodge of stuff went into my head-Bruce Phillips once said my head was like an attic, everything's in there, but you can't find it! (laughing) [audience laughs] Unless you really dig. And it would be impossible for me to put into a capsule how I got into this, but, but the main influences were-I, I married, way too young, and had five children. And came to Salt Lake when my husband was-who worked for the telephone company-was transferred here. And I got into the Extension Division, I took a class-I played the ukulele then. So did Bruce Phillips. When we met, we both played the ukulele. [audience member chuckles] He played a little one and I played an alto. And we used to get together and, with a whole lot of other people, and sing everything. And he made up calypso songs-he'd kill me if I sang you those, but I still remember them! (laughing) [audience laughs] And the name of the little coffee house was The Abyss. It was under the Capitol Theater. Hal Cannon 33:19 Yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 33:21 And it was closed for a while, by a, a sheriff who thought it was too dark in there, and there were too many weird-looking people who looked like something called beatniks that were appearing. [audience laughs] And when it opened again, they couldn't figure out what to call it, I suggested "Son of Abyss," but they wouldn't-[audience laughs] And any case, I, I began to take a, a class called Folk-Folk Songs, Accompaniment or something like that. And Dean Harold Bentley just-he, he really was one of the great savers of my life, ah he, he bought me a guitar, a real guitar. It was a Favela, and you could actually hold the strings down, the-and the guitar classes, [audience is chuckling] he believed that if everyone in the world played the guitar, there would be no more war or pestilence or, or famine, or any unpleasantness at all. And, and he-eventually I taught that class, along with my husband. And, and we had four classes that had at least twenty to twenty-five students. And then I taught a children's class on Saturday mornings, which I really hated, because they thought it should be outside. And the children would bring me birds, and, and worms and interesting bugs. [audience chuckles quietly.] Um, out of that came this Folk Music Society that you're talking about. But somewhere-he, he gave me-I'd had no instruction at all, I didn't know how to play the guitar-still don't really know how to play the guitar. But he gave me lessons with Bill Fowler, who was a marvelous classical guitar player, I don't know if any of you would remember him. He'd studied with Segovia and he used to bring Segovia here, I got to see him four times-here. And he also brought Charlie Byrd, the great jazz guitarist, and I was a jazz freak, that was my, my drug of choice, music-wise, then you know . . . . . . . . But I began to hear all of this other stuff, and one summer he brought Wayland Hand, from UCLA. And Wayland Hand taught a class called, An Introduction to American Folk Music. And he introduced me to the concept of, of oral transmission, how a song can last for centuries and change all of the characteristics-the tune, the words, the, the sex of the protagonist in the song, and still be precisely the same song and yet-I mean, you can see (inaudible). And he knew the, the song he chose to show us this with was "The Streets of Laredo." And he had a thousand versions of this. And he showed us how it started off as, "The Unfortunate Rake," and brought it up to, through to the 20th century. And I said, "Oh, I know one of those!" (laughing) That's the first album I was ever on, is s-is an album from Folkways called, The Unfortunate Rake. It is a fascinating piece of work and everyone should hear it. It has Ewan MacColl and A.L. Lloyd on it, and it has Dave Van Ronk and Margaret Berry on it, it has Rosalie Sorrels on it. Hal Cannon 36:59 Even has Jan Brunvand. Rosalie Sorrels 37:00 It has-[audience laughs] And it has Alan Lomax-I mean, it is really wonderful, and it goes up through all of that. And I was so, so extraordinarily overtaken by this, this sense of continuum in the, in these songs. And then, he, he [Dean Bentley] sent me to a, a seminar in ah, at UCLA, where he, he was, you know, he was a professor emeritus there, that's really great place. They had the best library I have ever seen. And I got to stay three weeks and, and the personnel who taught at this were Charles Seeger, and Bess Lomax Hawes-this was in 1957, I think. Polly Stewart 37:51 '59. Rosalie Sorrels 37:51 Noooo, it can't be, because I made that album in '58 and it was after I went to that. Polly Stewart 37:58 Okay, sorry I'm- Rosalie Sorrels 37:59 (laughs) Polly Stewart 38:01 I'm usually right. Rosalie Sorrels 38:03 You want to find-[audience chuckles] I have an archive, and, and you can see all of these things if you want to go there and it's a really nice place to go, it's the University of California in Santa Cruz in the Special Collections. And I have all of those things with dates on them. Polly Stewart 38:18 Good! Rosalie Sorrels 38:18 (laughs) [audience laughs] But I can't remember them very well, I just know that we moved down here ah, it might have been '58, when I went to the seminar. It was the year that Shelley was born, and if I sat here and subtracted how old she is from this . . . . (laughing) this date, I'd know. Anyway, ah John Greenway was there. Charles Seeger, as I said, ah, Herbert Halpert. Bess Hawes. Ed Cray, who, who was then just a young person who was D.K. Wilgus' assistant. He, he has just written a marvelous book about Woody Guthrie, I think everybody should read. And my, my guide was Guy Carawan, who took me all around Los Angeles and, introduced me to all the-Bud and Trav (?), and Cynthia Gooding, and all the people who were then singing in the Ash Grove and all around town. And there were people who came and demonstrated the music they were talking about- Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee came and it was just-I can't describe to you what, what it did to me. I just immediately started reading tomes, you know, libraries of Malcolm Laws and, and Vance Randolph and, and James Francis Child, and all of the-I was particularly taken by the, the protest songs, which I-and John Greenway and I became great friends. And I brought a lot of those people up here, when I came back. Dean Bentley, ah, made the facilities of the University of Utah available to me, that's how that eventually, that Intermountain Folk Music Society came to be. But he let me bring people. I, I never thought I'd go anywhere, I had five children and a great big house, I didn't expect to go out of Utah. Ah, except for maybe a visit to California, you know, (laughing) which was close enough. But I brought Guy first-that was interesting. He and, he and Peggy Seeger and a bunch of people had gone to Red China. They'd, they'd gone to Russia first. Now that was in '58. [one year before Rosalie was invited to the UCLA seminar with Wayland Hand, above] Polly Stewart 40:48 Was it? Rosalie Sorrels 40:51 They'd gone to Red Chi[na]-or they'd gone to Russia for an international youth conference, and they, they were the only country-this was the only country in the United States that-or in the, in the world, the United States was the only country in the world that didn't fund a delegation to that international youth conference. And they were already in trouble when they got there, but then they went to Red China. Red China invited them and, and the State Department said, you can't have a-you can't go there, or we'll-we won't okay your passport for that. And they said, well-the Red Chinese said-well they don't recognize us anyhow, you don't need a passport, and they went. (laughing) [laughter]-and they went everywhere in China and took pictures. And so, Guy brought seven hours of, of pictures and a film about this international youth conference. And it was the most amazing stuff I ever saw, and I only got about seven people to come-everyone was just undone about it being Red China, so they wouldn't have anything to do with it. It was the, the least successful thing I ever did, in terms of an audience, but it was, really an eye-opener. I then brought Jean Ritchie for a-we, we put on a small festival. And, and we got people-I remember getting that man-oh God, I can't-there's a, there's a s-ten-inch album for Folkways, what was his name? He was, he was from Ogden and, and he sang "Zack the Mormon Pioneer [she means Engineer]?" [singing] And when he whistled, WOO, WOO! (laughing) Unknown 42:49 Was that Lester Robert (?)? Rosalie Sorrels 42:49 [still singing] (inaudible) they'd understand . . . . it was about a, an engineer who had a wife in every town. [audience laughs] Hal Cannon 42:56 Eric Crandall (?)? Rosalie Sorrels 42:57 No, Fred something. I don't know. Fred . . . . Hal Cannon 43:02 Fred Keller? Rosalie Sorrels 43:04 I'm sorry, I can't remember that, it just has suddenly popped into my head. I, I remembered him because he, (singing, in deep, stalwart voice) And when he whistled, whoo, whoo! (laughing) You know, he's (inaudible). And some of the other people there were some, some kids from BYU who did "polygamy dances," [audience laughs] there'd be three women and one man. [audience keeps laughing] And of course they were really Swedish dances that, that weren't, had nothing to do with polygamy. But they called them polygamy dances. [audience chuckles] And Austin Fife-I, I met Austin Fife and Hector Lee then, all those people. And we hadn't started that Intermountain Folk Music Society yet, it was just the folk-the Folklore Society, and, and the Extension Division were really paying for this, but they allowed us to have, oh sometimes Kingsbury Hall, if it was somebody really well known. Or, or this smaller theater in the round. Or the ballroom. And the more we, the more we began to, ah, see how many people would like to come- people loved coming here, it was on the way to everywhere, and they could make some money going from here to there. And I would always put the concerts on on Wednesday because, because I found that anybody would come on Wednesday, they were going to be from Denver to Salt-or to San Francisco, you know. And I began to have big meetings in my house, every Friday night, just for us to all sing. And the Utah Valley Boys'd come and everybody would come. And, and I'd hooked up with some very interesting people who had one of the better poetry magazines from the '50s, called Wild Dog. It was Gino Sky, and Andrew Wagnon (?). So all of those people were coming through town and, and I personally think that that was one of the things that made it most interesting, was that conjunction between the folk music people and the poets. Charles Olson came and, and Edward Dorn started that magazine up in, in Idaho, at the University of Idaho-Idaho State University, at Pocatello. And these were students of his, and there was this Barry- oh, the, the theater guy, the theater-Gino Sky, there was- Polly Stewart 45:42 Oh, Barry Lynn? Rosalie Sorrels 45:43 Barry Lynn. Polly Stewart 45:43 Yeah, mm hmm. Hal Cannon 45:45 Oh yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 45:46 There was a marvelous underground here, of theater, poetry, folk music, and political people, including Ammon Hannecy. And that, that all came together to bring, to make this into one of the more interesting places in the United States, underground. And this is a very good university. The, the, the people who were in the university all understood how interesting that was. And how important it was, that all these people were meeting together through, through the offices of those very interesting people who were here. It just didn't ever get any publicity. Yesterday, I went to a, a publicity panel, and, and all the people who paid attention to us were people we, we simply went and dragged by the hair of the head, kicking and screaming. And, and I believe when it finally became a, a thing where we could raise money and, and bring people that were, were important to us, like Jean Ritchie-Jean Ritchie really influenced my life, she got me onto the Newport Folk Festival after she met me here. And, and Wayland was interested in, in the stuff from my family and, and the things that I knew, just that I have never thought of as being interesting to anyone. (laughing) You know, in the South sometimes, they call 'em "those old throwed-away songs," you know? And I, I just also would say that, that because it was the '60s when I finally became aware of what I was involved in, there was a generous country-wide connection. Everyone was connected, everyone knew about each other. There was a-I think that's what's wrong with everything now, is no-one's connected any more, everybody's afraid of each other and, and at that time, there was a possibility, a window where everyone connected. And I was able to be a gr-a part of that, I was the person who, who did that. Now when I became a professional, it's because I left my husband, and I had to support five children, I didn't know how to do anything. And that's why I became a folk singer. I do not think of myself as a folk singer, I'm a storyteller who uses music to advance the story. I'm a troubadour, I brought the news from one person to another, we all did. And that's what my story is. Polly Stewart 48:36 Thanks, Rosalie. Rosalie Sorrels 48:39 Yeah. Polly Stewart reminisces about Rosalie's role as a connector and mentor/opens the floor for reflections from the audience Polly Stewart 48:39 I wonder if there might be a-this might be a time to just open the floor for anybody that might have some memories from that same period or anything of that sort. You don't have to have been from Salt Lake to be able to talk about this, because it was-what Rosalie's describing was happening all over the country. I think that Rosalie is extraordinary in that she was an impresario who made connections everywhere she went, and she remem[bered]-I can remember talking with Rosalie-Rosalie talking to me. I would come, I would be coming home from the university, and walking past Rosalie's house, and Rosalie'd tap on that window and say, "Come on in!" You know, so I'd come in, she'd give me some coffee, and then she would tell me things, about what was going on in the world of the people that she knew. And she would tell me about books and things like that as well. But what I understood was that Rosalie was a great connector of, of people. And there were other things going on in the country at the same time. And I wonder if there were, if there are people here who could-who would like to speak about what was going on in, in their own memory or anything. Yeah? Peggy? Peggy Bulger remembers the Saratoga, New York folk music scene and seeing Rosalie perform there for the first time/Rosalie shares her memories of Saratoga as a cultural center, thanks to Caffé Lena Peggy Bulger 49:47 Well, I, I just, my first memory of Rosalie was 1963, I think, at Caffé Lena in Saratoga- 'cause I was born and raised in Albany, part of that whole pickin' and singing gathering- which was another whole thing that was happening on the East Coast-Bill and Andy Spence, and Richard and Lee Wilkie (?), and the Beers family were all creating a, again, a network of people who could come together and just share music and enjoy music, and it didn't, you didn't have to know anything about it. You could just come and, and enjoy. And I remember, you came with Utah Phillips, and we were just so intrigued that these western people-I mean, we had never, you know, seen, you know, a real-you know, we-Utah Phillips, a real cowboy! You know? Polly Stewart 50:39 (laughing) Peggy Bulger 50:39 It was just an amazing performance you did. Hal Cannon 50:45 (laughing) Peggy Bulger 50:45 I, I mean, I still remember it to this today. Rosalie Sorrels 50:48 Clad from head to toe in leather. Peggy Bulger 50:48 Yes! [laughter] Rosalie Sorrels 50:50 With the right hair already. (?) Peggy Bulger 50:51 With the ha- Rosalie Sorrels 50:52 You know, I, my train (?)- Peggy Bulger 50:53 You fulfilled all of our expectations, and- Rosalie Sorrels 50:54 We called 'em Utah Leather Freak Family (?). [audience laughs] Peggy Bulger 50:59 But it was, it was great, 'cause this whole East Coast crowd would like, you know, got a taste of what was happening out West, which was- Rosalie Sorrels 51:05 Yeah. Peggy Bulger 51:06 . . . . It was a whole different thing. Rosalie Sorrels 51:09 You have-you have to really give Lena more credit, though, because she- Hal Cannon 51:11 Yeah. Peggy Bulger 51:12 Oh yes. Rosalie Sorrels 51:12 She did not only-I mean, she was amazing with her, her connection to traditional music, but she knew-she's the first person who ever put Arlo Guthrie on- Peggy Bulger 51:23 Mm hmm. Rosalie Sorrels 51:23 She's the first person who ever put Bob Dylan on. Unknown 51:25 Yup. Rosalie Sorrels 51:26 In a, in a coffee house, in the state of New York. Unknown 51:30 Right. Rosalie Sorrels 51:30 She brought everybody, she loved theater-she brought theater, she brought jazz musicians-I saw, ah, oh, Bucky Pizzarelli and, Joe Venuti used to come up there all the time and play. I mean, you know, it was amazing that-again, there's Yaddo and, and the university and- Unknown 51:51 Right. Rosalie Sorrels 51:52 And Bill Kennedy, whose, whose influence just stretches so hugely there. Polly Stewart 51:57 Okay, just wanted to say, the person who just spoke, for the record, is Peggy Bulger. So if, when you speak, would you just give your name as well? Yeah? Alleen Dotson speaks about her musical experiences growing up in Kentucky (and work assistant to D.K. Wilgus)/continuity of folk music in her life-being interviewed by Rosalie, teaching folk music to her children Alleen Dotson 52:05 Okay, I'm Alleen Dotson (?) from Salt Lake City. Polly Stewart 52:08 Thank you. Alleen Dotson 52:09 In my, I-during this period of time, I was living in Kentucky for quite a while. Polly Stewart 52:12 Mm hmm, mm hmm. Alleen Dotson 52:13 Back in the '40s, I was introduced to folk music via public school music, the rather butchered versions of traditional music that, that appeared in the school songbooks. [laughter from audience] And I went to the Laboratory School at Western Kentucky. Polly Stewart 52:26 Oh my. Alleen Dotson 52:27 My dad was a professor of chemistry there. So I went through the whole, the Laboratory School and (inaudible), and graduated from Western-it was a state teacher's college at that time. But-and then when I went to, was in Girl Scouts, I learned more songs, that's what we sang at day camp, and that's what we sang at camp. Well I went to to the camp at Owensboro. Ah then, when I was, started in seventh grade and up, I went to Methodist camp. Well we sang folk songs, traditional folk songs-well versions of them, I should say. It really got interesting when we, ah, learned two versions of the same song. You know, like the "God said to Noah, there's going to be a floody, floody"-well we had two versions of that. And I kept a notebook in which I wrote down all the verses to all these things, so I still have that, to some of these songs, that I added to- Unknown 53:17 Me too! (laughing) Alleen Dotson 53:17 Over the (inaudible), over the times-so I could remember them, I couldn't remember all those verses otherwise. But then, I went, when I was in college, the year I graduated, it was 1961 and D.K. Wilgus was there at that time-I knew him and I spent one summer working for him, typing up little things for his files and things the students submitted. And I learned that he had another file at home that nobody at the school saw-that was where all the obscene things went. [audience laughs] Rosalie Sorrels (?) 53:46 The Delta file. Alleen Dotson 53:47 Delta file, yes. [laughter from the audience] Rosalie Sorrels 53:49 You know the man I, I mentioned, Ed Cray, who was his assistant, has written a very good book called The Erotic Muse, which is all about dirty folk songs. Alleen Dotson 53:59 I think I came across a few of those that he had forgotten to weed out before I got to them. [audience member giggles] But I was typing them on the old-fashioned typewriter. Polly Stewart 54:06 That's great. Alleen Dotson 54:08 And I went to graduate school at the University of Arkansas-I was an English major there too. But one of my professors, a woman, had assigned me to write a paper and do an oral presentation on Robert Burns. And she provided with me [laughter in background] with a copy of a thoroughly obscene publication called, The Merry Muses of Caledonia, which I was using in that time-added some words to my vocabulary too, by the way. [laughter from audience] And- Polly Stewart 54:34 Did you meet Mary Celestia Parler? Was she a, a teacher of yours? Alleen Dotson 54:37 I don't remember, it was 17th-late 17th century literature- Polly Stewart 54:41 Oh, okay. Alleen Dotson 54:41 (inaudible) English literature. I was-it was in the English department there. Polly Stewart 54:43 Yeah, yeah. Alleen Dotson 54:44 And it was a woman, I know it was a woman-otherwise, she wouldn't have dared to do that, I don't think! [audience laughs] Polly Stewart 54:48 (laughing) I don't think so! Alleen Dotson 54:49 She chose me for that project because my last name was Dooley, and she said that was close enough! [laughter from audience] Anyway, it was the closest name to, to, well Dooley's Irish, Scottish, and whatever. But, 'cause my Dooleys were Scotch-Irish. But I, this was also an oral presentation, so I was trying to sing some of those tunes. And I did a little bit of study on the melodies, which were extremely difficult to sight-read, and just had a pitch pipe, was all I to do with. I did a music minor in college, so I had some idea of what I was doing. But I found the range was very extreme for me. And some of the intervals were very unusual and it took me a while to learn to sing them. But there was a copy of, in the library, that had some of these songs in it. But then I went-after that, I taught school for six years-at both secondary and two, two years on a college level, I was at Campbellsville, Kentucky one year, with Dr. [M. Lynwood] Montell was the dean there for that particular year. And I got hold of his book that he wrote on a multi-cultural community, I don't remember the name of it now- Peggy Bulger 55:59 It was called, The Saga of Coe Ridge. [chorus among the audience, Coe Ridge] Coe Ridge, yeah. Alleen Dotson 56:04 And then I moved to Idaho, to Idaho-well no, I moved to Utah, at -I taught freshman English at Logan one year, and I was pregnant that year and very sick. My husband was going to school there. And then we went to Pocatello, Idaho after that. Well, I had continued with the music I learned-I had no, you know, all of my contacts were secondary at that point. Sometime in Pocatello, I ran across Rosalie, she came and did a presentation at a coffee shop somewhere and . . . and her, Sing Out! Magazine had a, had her picture on the front of it, that's, that's what I remember, so it- Rosalie Sorrels 56:43 No, they've never put me on a front of that magazine. (laughs) Alleen Dotson 56:45 Pardon? Unknown 56:46 They didn't? Alleen Dotson 56:50 Ah, something about Faith Baldwin or something was in there too. And the last year I was in Pocatello, Idaho, I got involved with the international folk dancing, so I've taken up folk dancing as well-I do that here in Salt Lake, several different varieties thereof . . . but I moved to Salt Lake in '88, I've been here since. But I have continued with my folk songs. I, I remember I sang for you one time when you were collecting-the kinds of songs I sang, though, you never did get into your book, but I enjoyed doing the singing anyway. I sang the music, I sang-I sang to my children. And my baby-rocking song (laughing) was not a baby-rocking song, it was "The Cherry Tree"-the riddle song. And I-I- Rosalie Sorrels 57:30 "I gave my love a cherry . . . . " Alleen Dotson 57:32 Yeah, that one. And I used some of the counting songs and the, oh, color songs, I taught to my children, I dug up out of the folk music and all of, "We wear red, Jenny Jenkins" for colors, and the "Ten Little Indians," I think, only we didn't do-count Indians, not appropriate for-it's an ethnic slur, so we counted everything else, except Indians. [audience laughs] You know, chairs, and dogs, and whatever. But I made use of them. I, one of my fond memories of my children was a mime that they did spontaneously to an Irish song, my dad had, ah, played classical music all the way through, but he discovered recorded music from various places in Europe, so I had that influence too, but this was an Irish song, and there are versions of it in America about this young man who's proposing to the girl and he won't have-she wont have him because he's got some bad habits. And one of them was the, the boy sitting up on the, she was sitting up on the back of the chair, with her arms folded and a grim look, looking down at the-well the girl was looking down at the boy, who was on his knees, you know, proposing, and they were acting this out as the record was playing and, it was amazing. Polly Stewart 58:47 Thank you very much. Alleen Dotson 58:48 Thanks. Dave Stanley talks about his college days in the early 1960s, when he would take the train to New York City, hang out in Washington Square in Greenwich Village/talks about the inclusiveness in the folk music scene there towards young people/arrival of folk music scene in Washington D.C. Polly Stewart 58:49 Yes? Ah Dave? Dave Stanley 58:51 In the early '60s I was- Polly Stewart 58:53 Dave Stanley. Dave Stanley 58:53 Yeah, Dave Stanley from Salt Lake. In the early '60s, I was in college in New Jersey, and as, as I went through college I started spending more and more time in New York, and less and less time (laughing) in New Jersey. And the Greenwich Village coffee house scene was, was really pretty amazing in the early '60s, particularly, every Sunday afternoon, when the weather was decent, people would gather in Washington Square Park, in the middle of Greenwich Village, and sort of similar to what Hal was describing in terms of the welcoming atmosphere in which kids-early high school, even junior high, were welcomed as part of that singing community. All of these kids from the suburbs- Unknown 59:39 Mm hmm. Dave Stanley 59:40 And from the far boroughs of New York City would come in on the subway and gather at Washington Square, and listen to, you know, some people that made eight or ten records, some people were just getting started, and some people were fourteen years old. But that welcoming atmosphere was also reflected in the coffee house scene that was going on then, because of course, coffee houses didn't serve alcohol, and therefore, kids as young as thirteen or fourteen were welcome to come in, and were exposed to the folk music scene and what was left over of the Beat Generation as well. Polly Stewart 1:00:18 That's right, it was right there then. Dave Stanley 1:00:19 With oral poetry and jazz and so on. I had grown up near Washington DC when the only music in town was Charlie Byrd and Ramsey Lewis, at the Bohemian Caverns. [audience chuckles] That was it-there was no bluegrass scene, there was not folk music, nothing. But by the time I got into my last couple of years of college, there were some coffee houses springing up. Washington was always very late, [audience chuckles] compared to the rest of the East Coast. And I wound up working as a waiter in the Ontario Place Coffee House, where the featured performers were Mississippi John Hurt. Unknown 1:00:54 Whoa! Dave Stanley 1:00:55 And Libba Cotten. Polly Stewart 1:00:58 Oh, that's fantastic. (laughs) Hal Cannon 1:00:58 That's not bad. Dave Stanley 1:01:00 And again, kids coming in from the suburbs. In those days, you could get a driver's license when you were fifteen and so, all of these kids from the suburbs were sitting at the feet of these great masters and really becoming a part of that scene. Polly Stewart 1:01:13 Thanks, Dave. Ah Lani, would you like to talk about your experience? Lani Herrmann talks about her exposure to folk music at the University of Chicago- U of C Folk Music Festival, "wingding" gatherings, hootenannies, and the formation of the Folk Music Club at the university Lani Herrmann 1:01:20 (just talking privately) What? [laughter] Polly Stewart 1:01:23 You're a, you're a fiddle player and a musicologist. Lani Herrmann 1:01:25 Well-oh. Polly Stewart 1:01:26 Lani Herrmann. Lani Herrmann 1:01:30 Um, my-I went to college at the University of Chicago-from Hawaii. Polly Stewart 1:01:34 Oh. Lani Herrmann 1:01:36 Um, and that was an experience. The snow, [laughter from audience] you know, all-all those cultural things that you have to . . . but at the, there was a University of Chicago Folk Festival, about a year and a half after I got there. [In 1961] And it was this folk music club-I forget what it-it was this group of people who, who got together and sang. And they called those, "wingdings." Unknown 1:02:06 Hmm. Lani Herrmann 1:02:08 And then, they had hootenannies, which were performances. And then, somehow the New Lost City Ramblers got together with the, some of the p-the organizers of-I think it was called the Folk Music Society, at U of C. Rosalie Sorrels 1:02:29 Was it the Old Town crowd, that . . . . ? Lani Herrmann 1:02:29 No, no, no. It was, it was- Rosalie Sorrels 1:02:31 Earlier than that? Lani Herrmann 1:02:32 The U of C Folk Music S-Club. Unknown 1:02:36 Mm hmm. Lani Herrmann 1:02:38 And they put on this series of concerts in the middle of the winter, I believe. Rosalie Sorrels 1:02:44 Hmm. Lani Herrmann 1:02:44 Like, February? Unknown 1:02:46 Mm hmm. Lani Herrmann 1:02:47 When there was nothing else going on? The first, the first one-the Stanley Brothers were there- Polly Stewart 1:02:56 Mmm, how great. Lani Herrmann 1:02:56 And Ralph (laughing), they, they got partied up. [audience laughs] To the point where, like ah-[audience laughs]-yeah, yeah, yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 1:03:06 That's a 4:00 town. (laughing) Lani Herrmann 1:03:07 And the second or third concert, they lost their bass player because he was just not able to play any more. [audience laughs] Unknown 1:03:14 Oh dear. Lani Herrmann 1:03:16 So one of the, one of the Ramblers played bass. But there was this little old guy, named Horton Barker- Rosalie Sorrels 1:03:24 (gasps) Oh God, was he wonderful. Lani Herrmann 1:03:26 He stood there on stage and sang these ballads. And blew everybody away. And . . . .Ralph Stanley- Rosalie Sorrels 1:03:34 Texas Gladden was a cousin of- Lani Herrmann 1:03:35 Huh? Rosalie Sorrels 1:03:36 Texas Gladden was a cousin of his. Lani Herrmann 1:03:39 Really? Rosalie Sorrels 1:03:39 Yeah. Lani Herrmann 1:03:39 Oh, okay. Um, and Ralph Stanley unbuttoned so far as to play, ah frail his banjo. Rosalie Sorrels 1:03:51 Love a good-frailer. Lani Herrmann 1:03:54 Anyway . . . . Polly Stewart 1:03:54 Okay. Rosalie Sorrels 1:03:54 (laughing) Polly Stewart 1:03:54 Well thanks, we appreciate that. Anybody else want talk about any of their memories from those days? 'Cause I-there is some other stuff I want to do, but I'd love to give everybody a chance to speak. Well, I, I think it might be nice to turn back to the- END OF AFS FORUM PART I END OF RECORDING