American Folklore Society Meeting, October 16, 2004 (Part 2)

The second part of video recording American Folklore Society (AFS) meeting. This meeting is a part of Polly Stewart's strategic grand launch of her oral history project, Utah Urban Pioneers Folk Music Revival, seizing the oportunity provided by the fact that AFS meeting was held in Salt Lake City for the first time in 26 years. In this meeting, some of the principals, who participated the revival during the 1950s and 1960s, were assembled for he first time to reminisce their experience in that historically meaningful time. It is also the first time that Polly Stewart introduced the definition of the movement as "Utah Urban Pioneers Folk Music Revival," and the musicians as "Utah Urban Pioneers"

Folk musician Rosalie Sorrels, Hal Cannon, folklore scholar Polly Stewart, Barre Toelken forms a panel discussion to reconstruct the history of folk music revival in Salk Lake City, 1950-1970. They share their personal experiences of getting interested in folk music, finding teachers and learning to play instruments and sing. The discussion gradually expends to include the national folk scene and its relationship with the Utah Folk Scene

Utah Urban Pioneers Project A Conversation with Utah's Urban Folk Revival Pioneers: Rosalie Sorrels and Friends American Folklore Society Meeting Salt Lake City, Utah Saturday, October 16, 2004 Session 17-13, 8:15 - 10:00 a.m. Session jointly sponsored by the Folklore Society of Utah and the Politics, Folklore and Social Justice Section of AFS Principal speakers: Polly Stewart, Rosalie Sorrels, Barre Toelken, and Hal Cannon. Later speakers from audience: Peggy Bulger, Alleen Dotson, Dave Stanley, Ed Reber, Lani Herrmann, and Elaine Thatcher. SUBJECT INDEX Partially transcribed by Polly Stewart from recording made by Spy Hop Productions, and furnished by AFS, March 17, 2005 Fully transcribed and transferred to Transcriva by Laura R. Marcus, June 10, 2009 Copy-edited by Laura R. Marcus, June 10, 2009 RECORDING 2 OF 2, Forum Part 2 Page 2 Polly Stewart opens discussion about collecting folk music in Utah Barre Toelken talks about collecting a stellar example of the Mountain Meadows Massacre Ballad in Blanding, Utah/ensuing discussion about the politics and social dynamics of this song and chapter in Utah history Page 4 Hal Cannon talks about his research and collecting activities and the New Beehive Songster project Page 6 Rosalie Sorrels talks about the song, "Lonesome Roving Wolves"/her experience collecting at women's clubs in Utah Page 10 Barre Toelken speaks about his own performing and recording career/tells story of Rosalie Sorrels' song, "I'm Gonna Tell" Page 13 Ed Reber asks question about a song about the Apostate's Dream/talks about a song from his childhood/being a student of Barre Toelken's at the University of Utah/musical experience with African American soldiers while serving in Vietnam Page 19 Discussion about community-based folk music vs. commercial folk music Page 17 Discussion of the concept, Urban Folk Music Revival Page 22 Rosalie Sorrels sings the Bruce (Utah) Phillips song, "Ashes on the Sea" about the passing of Woody Guthrie Page 23 Rosalie Sorrels talks about continuity in folk music, the contemporary scene/describes what folk music is to her Page 25 Discussion of urban folk music revivals in other countries TRANSCRIPT Partially transcribed by Polly Stewart from recording made by Spy Hop Productions, and furnished by AFS, March 17, 2005 Fully transcribed and transferred to Transcriva by Laura R. Marcus, June 10, 2009 Copy-edited by Laura R. Marcus, June 10, 2009 AFS FORUM PART II RECORDING 2 OF 2 Polly Stewart opens discussion about collecting folk music in Utah Polly Stewart 00:00 . . . . Dean had, the music scene had already begun. Anyway, Barre would you like to talk about any of the collecting that you did? Barre Toelken talks about collecting a stellar example of the Mountain Meadows Massacre Ballad in Blanding, Utah/ensuing discussion about the politics and social dynamics of this song and chapter in Utah history Barre Toelken 00:04 I didn't do too much collecting, I-one thing I do remember, though, is collecting a version-this is before I moved-this is when I was here as a student. Ah, I went south to Blanding with some friends of mine. And it ended up in a two-year trip, prospecting for uranium. Polly Stewart 00:25 (chuckles) Barre Toelken 00:26 But anyway, I met a, I met a guy down there, an old man-well I've remembered his name this morning. Maybe his name will come to me. He was a resident of Blanding who said, "I'll sing you a song if you don't tell anybody who, who sang it for you." [laughter] from audience] And I said, "Well, um, I'm not accustomed to this sort of thing"-I mean, I was, I was new at-and I said, "Are you supposed-are we supposed to give the name and the address and the age and all that stuff?" [audience member chuckles] And he said, "No you can't have the song then." [laughter from audience] And I said, "Well, of the, of the choice, I guess I'll take the song and I'll, I'll negotiate later." He says, "You can do anything you want with the song, just don't associate me with it." And then he sang me the Mountain Meadows Massacre Ballad. Polly Stewart 01:09 (under breath) Oh, geez! Hal Cannon 1:10 Wow. Barre Toelken 01:10 Which is one of the best versions of the Mountain Meadows Massacre Ballad I ever heard. And it became the first, first article I ever wrote. But I-he died and I wasn't able to use his name ever. And it was, it was because he was afraid-in Blanding, a small town that was divided several ways, by folks who had-what would they call 'em? Polly Stewart 01:35 (inaudible)? Barre Toelken 01:36 No, they-people that had come from Bluff, that had come through the Hole in the Rock-Hole-in-the-Rockers. Polly Stewart 01:41 Oh yeah, okay. Barre Toelken 01:42 And they, there were about three different Mormon groups. And each group had a different scenario for the Mountain Meadows Massacre. And at that time, by the way, in the-before the 1950s-it was-to, to outsiders like myself, it was said that Mountain Meadows Massacre never happened, it was a dirty rumor spread by Gentiles. And yet, every-once in a while, out from under the rocks would creep somebody who had, knew something about it. And he, he was an old guy and he had a, the idea that it'd die with him. And so he wanted to sing the ballad, but he still couldn't let his name be known-he lived in a small town and he would suffer for it. So that became my first ballad-my first article was the Mountain Meadows Massacre Ballad. And-speaking of, whoever it was, I guess several of us spoke of Wayland Hand-it was Wayland Hand's cajoling that got me publishing it in Western Folklore. I mean, Wayland Hand was active in everybody's life. I don't know, I don't think he slept at night, even. [audience laughs] He wrote to everybody- he'd find a, find a spare, line in something that he thought you'd under-understand or like, and he'd write you a letter. And so, he, he published that article on the Mountain Meadows Massacre. It's a Note in Western Folklore, about 1959, if you're interested. Polly Stewart 03:07 That's great. That's good. I guess Wayland could be called the impresario- Barre Toelken 03:11 Yeah. Hal Cannon talks about his research and collecting activities and the New Beehive Songster project Polly Stewart 03:12 Of the publishing end of things. So ah, Hal, how about you? Hal Cannon 03:16 Well, again, it was a little later for me. You know, I heard Utah folk songs. I came from a family who was very involved in music. My grandmother and her sisters played at the old Salt Lake Theater, played guitars, and played light-light (?) classical music. But we, we grew up singing songs in our family as well. And, but I'd never heard folk songs from Utah. I'd heard Rosalie sing them, and then in college, at the University of Utah, I used to skip class and go up to Special Collections, and, and they'd let me play the original Hubbard recordings on acetate. And I just love those original recordings of his. And, and I started learning some of the songs and started a group called the Deseret String Band. And we learned a lot of the songs from the Hubbard Collection, particularly. And Alan Jabbour, who I'd met through fiddling circles, when I was in graduate school in Rhode Island, was just hired at the National Endowment for the Arts and so we made a grant-Tom Carter, who I played music with and still do, and Jan Brunvand was sort of our, he was part of the grant application, 'cause we didn't think as young kids we could ever- Polly Stewart 04:43 [chuckles] Hal Cannon 04:43 . . . . qualify for a grant. But he was willing to sign his name to it. And we asked for a grant to publish something called The New Beehive Songster-ah, two volumes of it. One, were the original recordings, some of the best of what Hubbard and Fife had recorded. And then, we published those as a twelve-inch LP. And then, in the bicentennial year, with NEA funding, I went out and tried to find a second generation of music. And I really started by going to some of the same families that Hubbard and Fife had collected from in '30s and '40s. And I found that there-there was only a couple of people left alive in '76, ‘75-that they'd recorded-Myron Crandall from Ogden. Otho Murphy from Moab. Polly Stewart 05:36 Boy. Hal Cannon 05:37 But I recorded them but I also went to some of the best people that really knew a lot of songs, and found that their kids and grandkids were also singers. And I recorded sort of a second generation, we put out a second volume called The New Beehive Songster Volume II, that were all recordings that I'd made, pretty much, traveling around on the bicentennial year. And then we put the album out and unfortunately, credited the National Endowment for the Humanities for the grant. Peggy Bulger (?) 06:09 Oh no! [laughter from audience] Hal Cannon 06:10 And Alan said, "This is a great record but I can't show it to anyone because you got the money from the National Endowment for the Arts." And we had no idea there was a difference. [audience laughs] So . . . (laughs) it was a little embarrassing. [audience laughs] Rosalie Sorrels 06:25 Oh boy. Yeah, when you go and ask people for money and you make that mistake, it's really amazing what happens. (laughs) [audience laughs] People get so hanky (?) about . . . . (laughs) Hal Cannon 06:37 (laughs) Rosalie Sorrels talks about the song, "Lonesome Roving Wolves"/her experience collecting at women's clubs in Utah Polly Stewart 06:37 Rosalie, I can remember one time you gave a concert-or maybe you were just talking about this-but it was about a particular song, which you will know very well. You said that the woman who sang it to you-'cause you were collecting folk songs, and I guess it was in the late '50s-you said the woman who sang it to you had a kind of a practiced and mannered sort of concert style of performance. Rosalie Sorrels 07:00 It was a very Victorian- Polly Stewart 07:02 Yes, yes. Rosalie Sorrels 07:03 Ah, way of delivering it. She played the piano. Polly Stewart 07:05 Mm hmm. Hal Cannon 07:05 Hmm. Rosalie Sorrels 07:07 The song is, "The Lonesome Roving Wolves." Polly Stewart 07:09 Yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 07:09 And I think it's one of the best American folk songs. We used to call those native American folk songs, and everybody thinks you're talking about-[audience laughs]-the Indians, but we were talking about songs that were native to America. (laughs) And I still think it's, ah, it's a, it's a really great song. When I sang it, I, I was very much influenced in my singing by Jean Ritchie and, and Hally Wood. Both of whom became good friends of mine. And I was-I'm Irish through and through, and I listened to a lot of Irish traditional songs and it naturally fell into that Sean Nós style of singing, and I always sang it unaccompanied. And I naturally changed that tune, from a major to a minor. I'll sing a little of it for you, it's, it's a gorgeous song. [singing] The Mormons were camped down by the green grove, Where the clear waters flow from the mountains above, The wind it approached all chilly and cold, And we listened to the howling of those lonesome, roving wolves. And the groans of the dying were heard in our camp, And the cold chilly frost was seen on our tent, And the fear in our hearts can never be told, And we listened to the howling of those lonesome roving wolves. This-I, I sang that one night at the Lion's Head in New York City in the company of some of the best-the best in the world. And one of them was Joe Heaney-and he pounded on the table and yelled, "Fine girl you are!" [laughter from audience] The most important compliment I have ever gotten in my life! (laughs) [audience laughs] Polly Stewart 09:43 I think it's important to note that what happened in Utah is that these traditional songs, such as "The Lonesome Roving Wolves," was transformed-or was transmogrified into a Victorian parlor piece by the woman who had had it. And- Rosalie Sorrels 09:57 Yeah. She-she learned it in, from her father. Polly Stewart 10:01 Yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 10:01 Who probably sang it the way I sang it. Polly Stewart 10:03 Yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 10:03 In fact, when I-she heard me sing it, she said, "Oh that sounds a lot more like the way he sang it. Polly Stewart 10:12 Mm hmm, mm hmm. Rosalie Sorrels 10:13 Because she had learned piano chords to play with it and she had learned to sing in school. And she learned that. I couldn't even reproduce the way she sang it now- Polly Stewart 10:24 (laughing) Rosalie Sorrels 10:25 I-you know, it doesn't-[laughing] it doesn't translate into my understanding of how you sing a song like that. Elaine Thatcher 10:31 But you're saying that that was in, that she sang it in a major key? Rosalie Sorrels 10:34 Yes, she did. Elaine Thatcher 10:35 Huh. Rosalie Sorrels 10:36 Or she didn't-she did-that's a modal key- Elaine Thatcher 10:38 Right. Yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 10:38 It really is, you know-I don't remember which (inaudible) it is, but I- Polly Stewart 10:43 But you were out- Unknown 10:43 Dorian, probably. Dorian. Rosalie Sorrels 10:45 Probably Dorian. Polly Stewart 10:46 You were out in places like Bountiful and Layton, ah, and you called 'em "flowered hats." But it was ladies' clubs that you would visit and share your knowledge, and then they would sing you- Rosalie Sorrels 10:56 Yeah. I, I actually learned how to collect from really great collectors. I, I mean I, that seminar that I went to was some of the best collectors in the world, and Herbert Halpert was the last of the really great ones that, that you could get to-well, and Austin. But what I learned was, you have to, you have to listen and, and not interject your own ideas or anything. And then you're very likely to find out (laughing) all kinds of really great things! That you nev-would never find any other way. And but, I used a lot of techniques-I got on cooking programs on television, local cooking programs. And, and I talked about, ah, my grandmother making Bubble and Squeak and ah, and ah Tipsy Charlotte, and then I would sing a couple of songs. And people would call me up and, and they would ask me to come and sing. And, and I went round to-I, I sang for the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers a lot. And I remember one time this woman came up and said (laughing), "Sing that song about Brigham Young." And I-it's a scurrilous song about Brigham Young, [audience chuckles] and I thought I probably shouldn't, because, you know, it would offend everyone. And so I said, "I, I don't think I can remember that." And she said, "I know you know it, it's on your record." [audience bursts into laughter] And I said, "Oh well I just didn't want to offend anyone." And she said, "Oh, we all know that song." [laughter] I went to singing it and they all did sing it with me. [laughter] Polly Stewart 12:34 Dave Stanley, you had a comment-yeah? Barre Toelken speaks about his own performing and recording career/tells story of Rosalie Sorrels' song, "I'm Gonna Tell" Dave Stanley 12:35 Yeah, I wanted to ask Barre about his performing career, 'cause I know you put out a, a record on Prestige maybe? Unknown 12:43 Prestige, yup. Dave Stanley 12:43 In the early '60s? Unknown 12:45 Yup. Polly Stewart 12:45 And I still have it! Barre Toelken 12:45 I've got a- Dave Stanley 12:46 And so do I. Polly Stewart 12:47 And you still have it too! Dave Stanley 12:47 Called Acres of Clams. But a lot of the songs on that record, you collected yourself, around the Northwest, I think? Barre Toelken 12:55 Yeah. Dave Stanley 12:56 Did you have a professional performing career? Barre Toelken 13:00 Yeah, for a while. But I was, I was mostly in academia, so I wasn't, I wasn't free to go around the way she was! (laughing) Rosalie Sorrels 13:06 We did concerts together, though. Barre Toelken 13:07 Yeah, we did concerts together. Rosalie Sorrels 13:09 (laughing) Barre Toelken 13:09 We did a lot of things. But I did, I did collecting-I'd run into somebody who knew a song and I would collect it. I didn't do any, any lengthy collecting. [PS interpolation: I thought BT collected in about 1960 with Joan (Joanie) O'Bryant (she died in an automobile accident while collecting solo in the Ozarks in 1964).] But I just, ah, collected songs that I knew of. And in fact, one beautiful day-I thought it was beautiful-was where I saw the origin of a folk song. I don't know if you remember that? Rosalie came to my house-and we lived in Eugene, Oregon at the time. Rosalie Sorrels 13:36 I remember it perfectly. (laughs) Barre Toelken 13:37 (laughs) And I don't know how many kids, about ten of your kids were there . . . . (laughing) [audience laughs] Rosalie Sorrels 13:44 Five kids! Five, five. (laughing) Barre Toelken 13:46 And she, she came wheeling into the-and she was to do a concert or something the next day. And, and her kids had been-all day they'd been complaining about something and one was, "I'm gonna tell about this," and one who was, "I'm gonna tell about that." And she would-she had started a chant about, "I'm gonna tell-that's all I ever hear you kids say is, ‘I'm gonna tell.'" Polly Stewart 14:06 Oh! Gee . . . . Barre Toelken 14:07 And by the time she up-off in our house, she says, "We've got a song to sing you." And she had converted the kids, from murder, I guess-[audience laughs]-to this song. And they had a song, as I, as I- Rosalie Sorrels 14:17 (inaudible) Sweeney Todd, the barber, before that. Barre Toelken 14:20 Yeah-yeah! (laughing) Rosalie Sorrels 14:20 (laughing) Barre Toelken 14:23 And they had two-two verses of it. And my kids sang it the following summer- Unknown 14:29 At Fox Hollow- Barre Toelken 14:29 At Fox Hollow, that's where I met you- Unknown 14:30 Mm hmm. And ah- Rosalie Sorrels 14:32 I couldn't believe it had traveled all the way across the country like that! (laughing) Barre Toelken 14:35 And, and they had, and they had a third- Rosalie Sorrels 14:36 And I heard it there. (laughing) Barre Toelken 14:38 They-and they had a third verse that I didn't even know of at the time. But-that my kids had made up. And since that time, we've heard it from people all-from all over the world. People have heard-in Ireland and in India. Rosalie Sorrels 14:51 Yeah, the, the Pinewoods Society for, ah Folk Music Society sent me fourteen dirty verses to it. [laughter] They weren't very good, but you know your song's a folk song when people make up dirty verses to it. [laughter] I sang a lot in prisons and they loved it, they used to send me verses all the time, they really think it's pretty funny, I'm going to tell on you. (laughing) [laughter from audience] Unknown 15:15 That's great. Ed Reber asks question about a song about the Apostate's Dream/talks about a song from his childhood/being a student of Barre Toelken's at the University of Utah/musical experience with African American soldiers while serving in Vietnam Polly Stewart 15:17 Yeah, yeah. Oh yes? Ed Reber 15:19 I, I- Polly Stewart 15:19 And what's your name? Ed Reber 15:19 Ed-Reber. Polly Stewart 15:21 Ed Reber? Yeah. Ed Reber 15:22 Ah, a question, and then maybe just a brief comment that, I had a student down at Dixie who collected this song about "The Apostate's Dream." And I, I don't know that I've ever seen that in print. Ah, is, is that one that- Hal Cannon 15:39 I've never heard it. Rosalie Sorrels 15:39 I don't know that song. Hal Cannon 15:41 Uh uh. Polly Stewart 15:41 How does it go? Ed Reber 15:43 Well that's the second part, is I cannot sing. Polly Stewart 15:46 Oh! [laughter] Ed Reber 15:48 It starts out, "As I lay slumbering all curled up in a heap"-and then dreams about going to, to hell. And, and the saints by thousands come pouring in and then describes some of them specifically, Brigham Young and others. I'll have to get that to you. Hal Cannon 16:04 Yeah, I'd love to see that. Polly Stewart 16:05 That's wonderful. Ed Reber 16:08 The other thing that, maybe, just a story-when you mentioned the riddle song, I, I grew up, totally opposite from the kinds of experiences you're talking about in a little town, in Littlefield, Arizona, in a town of thirty. And ah, and there was no music. And radio- TV didn't reach down in there. And I, I remember my mother singing maybe one song. You know, we'd go, "Just stay in your own backyard, don't go where the white kids-" Polly Stewart 16:40 Oh yes, yeah, that's right. "Stay in Your own Back Yard," yeah. Ed Reber 16:43 Yeah. But we asked her to sing and actually recorded that a while back, but it has the Pickaninny word in it- Polly Stewart 16:47 That's right. Ed Reber 16:48 So we're not quite sure we can tell it to anybody else. Polly Stewart 16:50 It was very well known. Ed Reber 16:51 Yeah. Polly Stewart 16:52 Mm hmm. Ed Reber 16:53 And that's the only song I think I remember from my childhood. But I took Barre Toelken's class, '65, '66, we figured out somewhere in there. Polly Stewart 17:02 We were probably in the same class, at Utah. Ed Reber 17:03 I'll be darned. Polly Stewart 17:04 Yeah. '65, yeah. Ed Reber 17:05 When you were at the University of Utah- Barre Toelken 17:06 Yeah. Polly Stewart 17:06 (laughs quietly) Ed Reber 17:06 And through that I heard, ah, Rosalie and Joan Baez and Jean Ritchie came. Barre Toelken 17:10 Yeah. Ed Reber 17:11 And it was a wonderful experience, and I was drafted. And in '69 and '70 I ended up in Vietnam. And I was an infantry soldier but I was back taking the place of a company clerk (cleric?) who was on R & R. And it was a little base library, and I went down there sometimes. And I ended up there at closing time, and everybody left except for about forty Black soldiers and me. And, and they apparently knew what was going to happen and I didn't. But after everybody else had left, they formed a big circle with the chairs, and got a mike and a, a little amp there. And they passed the mike around and sang. [group hmmm] Polly Stewart 17:56 Oh my God. Ed Reber 17:56 And it was one of the most beautiful experiences-all of them sad, mournful songs of back home, and there were, you know, we'd cry and sing. And they passed it to me, and I said, "Well I don't sing." And they said, "Oh, you gotta sing." So, I said, "Well, okay." And I sang the riddle song. And it was horrible, you know, I just cannot sing. But I was, I was-it was the most strange experience, because I was the incompetent, I was the child, among masters. And as we left, dozens of them came over, patted me on the back, you know, "Good job! Great job! (inaudible) sing." And it was a, it was a very moving experience for me, but that all came from acquaintance with you. Barre Toelken 18:39 Gee! Polly Stewart 18:40 (laughing) That's a beautiful story, Ed, and it kind of illustrates that kind of camaraderie and welcomingness, and acceptingness that was, that's something that Rosalie first mentioned that-oh I guess Hal, really, that just everybody in that era, or in that ambience, is, is open and accepting. Discussion about community-based folk music vs. commercial folk music Barre Toelken 19:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well that kind of music is meant-this kind of music, all together, is meant to include people, rather than to exclude people. And it's a, it's a different direction that it moves. And insofar as it moves away from that, and gets at the entertainer, then you've lost a, you've lost folk song somehow. Hal Cannon 19:21 You know, when I was collecting in the mid-, in the '70s, doing the Beehive Songsters, by that time it was really interesting, 'cause I could-I remember going to people's homes and saying, "Do you know folk songs?" And they'd say, "No I don't know folk songs," because folk song had become-had this commercial meaning, you know. I don't do any Peter, Paul, and Mary, I don't do any Kingston Trio. And, and yet, these people knew piles of [traditional] songs, but they didn't think of them as folk songs any more. And so, in a way, it sort of turned into exclusionary- Barre Toelken 19:52 Hmm. Hal Cannon 19:53 And I don't think it's from the scene that we're talking about, it was from some other- Rosalie Sorrels 19:57 No, certainly not. Hal Cannon 19:58 That, that we didn't prescribe to. Rosalie Sorrels 19:59 We, we resisted that! (laughing) Hal Cannon 20:01 Oh, I know! I remember picketing- Rosalie Sorrels 20:02 (inaudible) Hal Cannon 20:03 Picketing at Skyline High School because they didn't have any-all they had was commercial folk music on the (inaudible)- Polly Stewart 20:08 Oh, you picketed? [audience laughs] Hal Cannon 20:10 With Mark Richmond, yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 20:12 That's great. Discussion of the concept, urban folk music revival Polly Stewart 20:12 Oh, that's great. Well, you know, this kind of brings up a, a thing that we might-we're getting, we have a little bit of time left, but it might be good to talk about this concept of the name, the urban folk music revival. Because this is something that is coming from, I believe, a layer of, of political, socio-political history which is about left-wing politics. And I don't think there was any such thing, um, among the, in the, in the, in the tradition-in the singing traditions of Utah and Idaho, that wasn't going on at all. And so, what we have is people- Rosalie Sorrels 20:46 What? Hal Cannon 20:47 Well . . . . Polly Stewart 20:48 And so what I'm thinking is, no I'm thinking there-well not-not the Mormon ladies anyway. Rosalie Sorrels 20:53 I got fired for singing-ah, from a radio program I was on-for singing "The Talking Atomic Blues!" (laughing) Polly Stewart 20:58 I know-yeah, I know that. Rosalie Sorrels 21:00 (laughing) Polly Stewart 21:00 I didn't explain it right. Yeah, what I'm saying is, there were people who were politically aware, who were in tune with that political social protest tradition. But it seems to me that it's-I mean, I don't know, maybe somebody who's a historian of this can talk about this better, but it seems to me that there was, it was a misnomer to call it a folk-an urban folk revival, because there was a, it was a, it was a "vival," it was already here. And there were-I'm not, I'm just thinking this up as I go along, it seems to me there were several layers of performance and, and text and stuff like that going on, because there were people that Hal knew-the ranchers and all that-and, and all of you collected from folks like that. But everybody who was doing that collecting was coming from a perspective of knowledge of this larger movement, which came to be known as the urban folk music revival. So I guess I'm just-I'm, I'm a little confused about-well how do you feel about that? Yeah? Rosalie Sorrels 22:01 I, I think perhaps you did not participate in the larger picture that I'm talking about, really. Because if-did you ever meet Ammon Hannecy or go down there? Polly Stewart 22:11 I did, yeah, I did mean Ammon. Hal Cannon 22:13 Right. Rosalie Sorrels 22:14 Did you go to those meetings? They were using that music, they all knew all that music- Barre Toelken 22:18 Yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 22:18 And they were using it to make new music and that's my co-my understanding of the urban Music-folk music revival. Polly Stewart 22:25 And it fits in beautifully with- Rosalie Sorrels 22:27 You know. Polly Stewart 22:27 That stuff that I'm aware of, from elsewhere-yeah, that's right. So that the-but see, that's different from the farmers. Rosalie Sorrels 22:32 I mean, I would like to say that I believe-I mean, that was all going in, in my-I was, I was raised in a very political family. Polly Stewart 22:41 Yeah, mm hmm. Rosalie Sorrels 22:42 And my, my father lost his job because he supported Henry Wallace, and I heard all of that music as well. My uncles were card-carrying members of the Communist Party. And I know an immense body of music that was going in, in the '30s and the '40s- Polly Stewart 23:00 Right. Rosalie Sorrels 23:02 And way before that. And they were using this music to advance those ideas, but- Polly Stewart 23:05 Yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 23:06 But Bruce Phillips was the one who really, who really got a hold of that and used the old songs- Polly Stewart 23:11 Yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 23:12 To make new songs. And he used-and, and was-I mean, he certainly wasn't the first person I, I met who, who used that music, and-by any stretch of the imagination. I knew it in the '40s from, from- Polly Stewart 23:25 Yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 23:26 From my uncles. But um, but he's the one who, who has brought it forward. One great song he, he wrote, in memory of Woody Guthrie is "Ashes on the Sea." And, and that almost states it, if, if you like I could sing it. Polly Stewart 23:45 Sure, yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 23:46 Just to give you an idea, it's ah . . . . Hal Cannon 23:49 Let me do it. Rosalie Sorrels sings the Bruce (Utah) Phillips song, "Ashes on the Sea" about the passing of Woody Guthrie Rosalie Sorrels 23:50 Okay. I, I just thought of that as . . . . [sound of guitar being plucked] What key do I do that in? [humming to guitar, getting melody; singing] What is this song I hear a'beating, Sprung from the careless seeds you've sown? Our songs will come and go like seasons, That bloom and fade all on their own. And now I know I cannot find you, You're gone from all but memory, And I am told that one who loves you, Strewed your ashes on the sea. I stepped outside for just a moment, To turn and look on my own face, What is that shadow just behind me? Well it's the old one I reach out to embrace. It's one thing to look upon a picture, It's another thing to read the pages through, Or perhaps to linger by the wayside, Hoping I might find a trace of you. And now I know I cannot find you, You're gone from all but memory, And I am told that one who loves you, Has strewn your ashes on the sea. The dust clouds still blow across your footprints, Your best friend still stands there all alone, Boxcars still keep the lovers parted, Little boys still run away from home. What is this song you hear repeating? Sprung from the careless seeds I've sown? Our songs will come and go like seasons, That bloom and fade all on their own. And now I know I cannot find you, You're gone, gone from all but memory, And I am told that one who loves you, Strewed your ashes on the sea, I'm told that one who loves you, Strewed your ashes on the sea. Polly Stewart 27:27 Thanks, Rosalie. [applause] Rosalie Sorrels 27:30 See, the way it starts-the way it starts, says "What is this song I hear repeating, Sprung from the careless seeds you've sown?" And then it ends, "What is this song you hear repeating, Sprung from the careless seeds I've sown?" And that concept of the songs rhyme (?) from one to another, back and forth, and, and the, the importance of memory, the, the power of memory, that is one of the more important powers we own. Rosalie Sorrels talks about continuity in folk music, the contemporary scene/describes what folk music is to her Polly Stewart 27:58 Peggy Bulger? Peggy Bulger 27:59 Yeah, um I have a question for you, Rosalie, I mean you've been performing for, what, forty-five years already? (laughing) A long time. Rosalie Sorrels 28:08 Fifty-five. Peggy Bulger 28:09 Fifty-five years. Do you see-what do you think the music scene is today? Are younger people coming in-? Rosalie Sorrels 28:17 Absolutely. Peggy Bulger 28:18 Okay. Rosalie Sorrels 28:20 When people ask me what I think is important in contemporary music, I tell them to listen to Los Lobos. Peggy Bulger 28:27 Mm hmm. Rosalie Sorrels 28:28 They sing their roots music better than anybody, and they came by it honestly. And they make new music out of it that, that the children-or the young people powerfully relate to, in terms of what's, what's going on. They make new things out of old all the time, and, and they, and they use electric, acoustic, every kind of music to-and they, they, you know, U2, some of those other people, they, they use the music that they, they own. And, and I believe a description-people are always asking what you think folk music is? Sometimes it comes around that it's viable commercially, and then everybody thinks they just found it, you know? But it's always there, never goes away. People make music like that because they need it. And that's where it comes from. And they take what they know that they've learned that-I mean, those things can save your life, if you're in a black hole somewhere, some little fragment of a lullaby can, can save your life. I think that music is the most important music there is. Polly Stewart 29:43 Thank you. Well this-this is a, might be a good time to end this session, it's just about time to end and I, I really appreciate what you said just now. It talks-I think-it's important to-we all know this as scholars, but ordinary people don't know that, and they think that the only thing that folk music is, is the privileged, staged kind of music- Rosalie Sorrels 30:06 Yeah. Polly Stewart 30:06 And what you're-what we're talking about here is something very different. And I appreciate the discussion about Urban Folk Music Revival stuff, because there is the, there-obviously, it's, you know, different layers and different sources and things like that, but it seems to me that the four of us here, and the people who shared from the audience, are all people who constructed meanings for themselves, out of rural, urban, and political and non-political sources, and, and so . . . okay, well . . . yes? Discussion of urban folk music revivals in other countries Lani Herrmann 30:36 [from audience] I'd like to point out that there have been revivals in other countries. Polly Stewart 30:41 Okay. Lani Herrmann 30:42 That, that-there's, there's this big arg -or discussion in, in Britain about the revival group. Polly Stewart 30:48 Really? Lani Herrmann 30:49 And Ewan MacColl and so on and so forth. Rosalie Sorrels 30:52 South America and Central America. Lani Herrmann 30:53 Yeah, yeah, and, and in France- Rosalie Sorrels 30:55 Everywhere! Lani Herrmann 30:56 I was in the- Rosalie Sorrels 30:57 Africa! Lani Herrmann 30:58 Moved there, you know, for my husband to study chemistry, but we were in the middle of the French Revival. People were going out and doing, learning the old songs and bringing them into the city. Rosalie Sorrels 31:14 Yeah. Lani Herrmann 31:15 And I didn't know it, you know, I just-when I- Polly Stewart 31:17 When was that? Lani Herrmann 31:19 Ah, 1970, mmmm, '72 to '76. Polly Stewart 31:24 Yeah. Lani Herrmann 31:27 And . . . . Rosalie Sorrels 31:29 When I identify what I think I am, which is a storyteller, rather than a-you know, that has to do with, with a sense of always wanting to know where the song comes from and why people sing it. And, and when you, when you hear that in Central and South America, and revivals are, you know, Violeta Parra and some of those people who- Victor Jara, who, who brought that, that tradition back, the, the tradition of, of singing together because, because you're fighting some battles- Lani Herrmann 32:05 You have a common cause, yeah. Rosalie Sorrels 32:06 Yeah, right. Polly Stewart 32:09 Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you everyone for coming, and it's been a very exciting session for me-thank you so much. [Applause, people getting up and talking and leaving] Barre Toelken 32:20 You might encourage people to going. (?) Polly Stewart 32:21 Oh yes, yeah, ah oh-right! (laughing) Yeah, this is the cool thing . . . . (laughing) Just ah, I just wanted to say, once again, if you came in, if you came in late, please don't neglect to come to the demonstration concert, this evening, at 9:30, from 9:30 till 10:15, it's going to be directly across, over in the Sun Valley Room. And this concert is made possible through a generous little grant that was made by WESTAF. And Rosalie will be there, and I will be there, and maybe my sister Heather will be there, I'm not sure. Hal. Anyway, we're going to be talking about some of the things that we were doing, back in those days. And we're going-I bet we're going to- END OF RECORDING END OF FORUM