Mormon History Association Oral History Interview with Glen M. Leonard on April 25, 2024

This oral history interview with Glen M. Leonard, conducted on April 25, 2024, covers his extensive career as a historian of Mormon and Utah history, his significant contributions to the Church History Museum, and his involvement with the Mormon History Association. Leonard discusses his educational background at the University of Utah, his work with the Utah State Historical Society, and his long tenure with the LDS Church Historical Department, including his pivotal role in the planning and development of the Church History Museum as its director for 28 years. He highlights his research interests in local history, particularly Farmington and Davis County, and his co-authorship of Massacre at Mountain Meadows. The interview also touches on his military service, his family history, his time as a missionary in New Zealand and Australia, and his reflections on the evolving nature of Mormon history scholarship, including the increased transparency within the Church

MHA Oral History Interview: Glen M. Leonard April 25, 2024 at 1:00 PM Mountain Time in Farmington, UT Attendees Adrienne White and Glen M. Leonard Transcript This editable transcript was computer-generated and has been edited by Adrienne White for accuracy. Special Note Glen was diagnosed with dementia six years prior to the date of the interview. While this conversation captures his personal reflections and experiences, it is important to note that the condition may have affected his ability to recall certain details accurately. This transcript should be understood as a valuable narrative of his life and perspectives, albeit with the recognition that some factual inaccuracies may be present due to memory challenges associated with his diagnosis. Adrienne White: Alright. What is your full name? Glen M. Leonard: Glen Milton Leonard. Adrienne White: What is your date of birth? Glen M. Leonard: I was born on November 15th, 1938. Adrienne White: And where were you born? Glen M. Leonard: I was born in the Saint… What's the hospital down in Salt Lake? Adrienne White: LDS Hospital? Glen M. Leonard: There used to be an old LDS Hospital there, and that's where I was born and spent, you know, a week before they took me home. That's the old way of doing it. Adrienne White: [laughing] Yeah. And where do you currently live? Glen M. Leonard: I live in Farmington, in North Farmington, on Leonard Lane. Adrienne White: What were your parents' names? Glen M. Leonard: Burnham Jay Leonard, who grew up here in Farmington, right at the foothills here, and Allene Green, who grew up to the north of us. So, she and he met at Davis High School as students. Adrienne White: That's great. Thank you. How many siblings did you have? Glen M. Leonard: I'm the oldest. And then there was Colleen, who traveled to a lot of places with her husband and ended up next door. She is now deceased. The next three little babies, two lived and then died. The third one was born dead. And then, I have Don and Blaine. Those are my brothers and sister. Adrienne White: Thank you. What was your childhood education like? Glen M. Leonard: I loved school. I'd go to elementary school… First grade, all the way up there, and I was always up with women… The girls. [chuckling] And sometimes it was me and them. So, that gave me some confidence that I can do things, intellectually, if I want to write or teach. Adrienne White: Great. Thank you. Are you an educationally trained or a self-taught historian? Glen M. Leonard: My first interest was in writing articles for newspapers. So, at the University of Utah, I studied that. That was my minor. My major was history. And so, I was interested in Utah history, Western American history, and then American history. It turns out, when I graduated, there weren't any positions open in the schools in Davis County or further north and further south. Some young man just ahead of me took the two [open positions when they got] out of school. And so, because I was interested in this other interest, I got some jobs as a newspaper person. The Deseret Book wanted to hire me for doing… What they do is not advertisements, but… What do you call it when they write the articles in the newspaper? Those positions. Adrienne White: Were you a columnist? Glen M. Leonard: I could write columns, yes, or I could write these other things. And it turns out that I'd rather do journalism, and the Utah Historical Society had a temporary job there. A man, a historian from the southern states, came to Utah to get acquainted here, and so I was hired to tour him around in Davis County. He was interested in birds, so we went down to the lake, we got to the lake in Farmington, and he saw birds there he'd never seen anywhere else. He was excited. So, he went home and a few years later, he called me and he said, “I'm retiring. Would you like my job here? You can get it.” And so my wife and I said, “We don't… We want to live here.” So, he found another historian in that part of the country and he got the job. So, I am a homer. [chuckling] And we got into a house in Bountiful and then got a larger house. Finally, we got a bigger car and then we couldn't afford the houses in Bountiful and so I brought my wife up through the alfalfa and convinced her we should build here, which we did. Adrienne White: And you've been here ever since? Glen M. Leonard: Uh-huh. She was in a club of students, in her high school years and… And we just came here… And she lived next door, grew up in all of the schools, junior and high school, and they used to go out every once in a while with their husbands to have picnics in people's backyards, including ours. So, that's how we got acquainted. And she watched her husband die slowly. I watched my wife die slowly. And one day, my brothers got together with us. And she was in this meeting on what to do with me. I had signed up to go on a tour to New Zealand where I served a mission and I needed a girl to go with me and she said, “I'll go with you.” So, we got married and she's been with me since… So, what was the question? Adrienne White: That’s okay. You answered it. I have another question. So, you went to the University of Utah…? Glen M. Leonard: Oh, yes. So… Adrienne White: What year did you get your degree? Glen M. Leonard: So, what I did is… I went for a few years to these other schools. And then I got… What’s the highest you get? Adrienne White: PhD. Glen M. Leonard: I got a PhD at the University of Utah, with a minor in the other field… And so I'm Dr. Leonard. [chuckling] Adrienne White: So, you have a bachelor’s and you have a PhD. Do you also have a master’s degree? Glen M. Leonard: Mhm. Well, you know, you just go up. I went through those three stages. And you know, you write something for each one. Adrienne White: Right. Did you get all three degrees from the University of Utah? Glen M. Leonard: Yes. Oh, yes! Adrienne White: [laughing] Did you study history through all three degrees? Glen M. Leonard: Yeah, you start with things that you have to do. And then the rest was those two fields [history and journalism]. Adrienne White: Okay, great. Do you happen to remember what years you got those degrees? And it's okay if you don't. You might have them in these materials. Glen M. Leonard: Yeah, they are in there. Adrienne White: I’ll add some footnotes for those details… Great. What was the topic of your doctoral dissertation? Glen M. Leonard: It was a study of settlements in the west, talking about all of these little towns in the western states and that was new. And I never got a publisher, but I have two copies downstairs. [laughing] Adrienne White: That's great. How did you get involved in the world of Mormon history? Glen M. Leonard: I was interested in history anyway… Interested in family history. That's how I got interested. And then at the university, junior high, anywhere… I was just interested in that. And one of the reasons was, I grew up next door to my aunt Margaret. Her husband had gone up in the military and died. So, she was alone. And so, all of the time my mother was having a problem losing all these babies, she took care of us. She also believed in education, so she would give us books every Christmas, and they were books so we could learn history. I still have them. And so, aunt Margaret really influenced me. She wanted me to be educated, and saw to it that I was. And she had studied at the University of Utah in her generation. All of my dad's sisters had gone there, except one that went to Provo. And her family's still there… LeGrand Young, have you heard of him? That's his son and he's still going. Adrienne White: Wow. So, your first history job was at the Utah State Historical Society? Glen M. Leonard: Yes, I got that grant and the grant was to go all through Utah state and get these little historical groups taught on how to really get up and grow their topics. And then it went on from there when that closed down. Then I went into the… Leonard Arrington1 got me work. Adrienne White: Do you have a story about that? How Leonard Arrington helped you get work? Glen M. Leonard: Well, here… His theory was this… “You gotta get a job and they're hard to get. I will find one for you. And after a year, then you can go where you want to. We'll get you started.” And he wanted us to, you know, spare out, which some of us didn’t. Adrienne White: So, after you worked for the Utah State Historical Society, you worked at the Church Historical Department? Glen M. Leonard: Yes, they called me and said, “We have a position and we would like you to do it and you can do it for a year or two and then, you know, go off.” But I stayed there and I stayed there so long that it was time to go to the old Church History Museum and upgrade it. So, Florence Jacobson2 was responsible for that, but they had places to live in southern California in the summer and up in Idaho in the winter, or the other way around. And so, they 1 Leonard J. Arrington (1917-1999) was the founder of the Mormon History Association and has been called the “Dean of Mormon History.” He was the first non-General Authority Church Historian for the LDS Church from 1972 to 1982. He was the director of the Joseph Fielding Smith Institute for Church History from 1982 to 1986. 2 Florence Smith Jacobsen (1913-2017) was a prominent figure in the LDS Church. Her church callings included presiding over the Eastern States Mission (1955-1959), serving as president of the Young Women’s Mutual Improvement Association, and becoming the LDS Church’s first curator. She proposed the idea for the Museum of Church History and Art to the First Presidency and played an instrumental role in the planning and development of the museum. She was the granddaughter of Joseph F. Smith and Heber J. Grant. would come home for conference – General Conference – and visit with us for a week or two, and then be on their way. So, I was really responsible and planned the new building, and she was there to be there with the General Authorities to see that it got done. And then, we all had the responsibility to go out to all [LDS] Church history sites. And so, there was a young man from California who was interested in architecture, so he and I went together to every [LDS] Church history site there is. I visited every state, except two. Adrienne White: Wow. And who was that? Who was the guy from California? Glen M. Leonard: I was going to say it before you asked me… It’ll come back. Adrienne White: That's okay. Yeah. Glen M. Leonard: He's deceased now, but he was… Adrienne White: It wasn't Paul Anderson…?3 Glen M. Leonard: Yes. Adrienne White: Oh, okay. Glen M. Leonard: You know him? Adrienne White: Yeah. Glen M. Leonard: Yeah, that's him. Adrienne White: Yeah. I didn't realize he was from California. Glen M. Leonard: That's where he got his college education. So, there's still some of this other group around… So, they tore down the building that was there and built the new museum. And I was the one who chose what the subjects were and what was being displayed. We had contests nationally and got all those pictures. And the winners, we brought them here so that they could see them. After I left… Instead of all kinds, they just put in two or three winners, so the displays were simpler. But, you know, they would bring them in a collection, like they did for a few months, and then send them off back to their owners. They'd hoped somebody would buy it, and then when they were finished, they would get it. But not too many of them were sold. Adrienne White: Thank you for sharing. And we're going to talk quite a bit about the Church History Museum throughout this interview, especially when we get towards those individualized questions that are specialized for you. What Mormon history research topics did you focus on throughout your career? 3 Paul L. Anderson (1946-2018) was an architect, an architectural historian, museum curator, and hymn writer. He married Lavina Fielding Anderson in 1977. He served as president of the MHA from 2007 to 2008. Glen M. Leonard: It was Mormon history, Utah history, and Western American history. Adrienne White: Great. Out of all of your publications, which ones stand out to you as the ones that you are most proud of? Glen M. Leonard: They were all good. Adrienne White: [laughing] Do you have any favorites? Glen M. Leonard: You know, I guess I'm most interested in local history. That's what I'm writing right now. I'm just finishing Farmington history. Adrienne White: That's great. So, do you have any unfinished projects, monographs, or manuscripts that you're hoping to publish or make available to the public? Glen M. Leonard: Well, the Truman Leonard one now is available, and the one I'm just finishing will be published for public access. Adrienne White: The Farmington history? Glen M. Leonard: Mhm. There are a lot of people in Farmington who are waiting for it. Adrienne White: I'm sure there are. Did you say that you've sent that to a publisher? Glen M. Leonard: No, my son in Provo wants to read it. You know, I've read it three or four times and caught all the errors, but he's interested in history and he has connections there. So, he's going to see what it is, and he may be able to get BYU Studies to publish it for me. If not, I'll have the company down here in south Davis County who does… Basically, their job is genealogy and people that do that. But, we'll see. Adrienne White: Great. And I know you have another unpublished project that you're working on. You're writing your autobiography? Glen M. Leonard: Yes. And that's ready to go now. I finished it. I've gotten right up to today, you know, this week. Adrienne White: Congratulations. So, what's the plan with that, now that it's complete? Glen M. Leonard: Well, I'll let my kids read it and see what they say. You know, we can send it down and publish it ourselves, and then have it available for family and anybody else that wants to read it. Adrienne White: Are you planning on giving the Church History Library a copy? Glen M. Leonard: Everything I've written has copies to them. Adrienne White: Okay, great. Glen M. Leonard: Yes, you know, they're interested in people's histories, especially if they're important people. And I know I was. I had been Young Men's president, a Sunday school chorister and singer, and I had been a counselor in the bishopric, a bishop, counselor in the stake presidency, the stake president. And so, I've gone as far as you can in the [LDS] Church here. [laughing] Adrienne White: Yeah. Glen M. Leonard: So, I've been busy. Adrienne White: Yeah, you have been. I'm really glad that you wrote your story and that you're making it available to people. Glen M. Leonard: There are two or three versions there. [gesturing to papers] Adrienne White: Yeah? Oh, I’m excited to look through it. Thank you for giving me copies. Early in your career, were there any individuals that influenced you or mentored you? Glen M. Leonard: Well, I mentioned aunt Margaret. She was the one who did most of that. There were some teachers who were interested… One of them lived in Davis and wanted me to go that way. And so, I was interested in local history and so he really supported me in that and that's where I went. Adrienne White: Did you have any mentors when you were at the Utah State Historical Society? Glen M. Leonard: Well, there were professors on the stop. The First Presidency counselors used to come and talk to me because this was the [LDS] Church's project. And some of them wanted their pictures taken – portraits painted – so I saw to that. I'd meet with them and with the artist, and we'd talk about it and get to it. They’d come back, and we'd take him in, and… “Well, I don't want that,” so we'd fix it. So, all of those pictures in their offices, I was helping them get painted, or photographed, depending. The later ones were photographed, but the earlier ones were painted. Adrienne White: Wow. Glen M. Leonard: I got to know that they were real people. [chuckling] And their personal parts, and they reminded me when I went out that I couldn't publish anything about those kinds of experiences. Those were private, and they're all private people. Adrienne White: When you were at the Church History Department… Was Leonard Arrington a mentor to you? Glen M. Leonard: Like I said, he was there, and then after a while, he wanted to move on, so he went to Provo. He was there for a while, and then went back to Logan. And all of his papers are up there [at Utah State University’s Special Collections]. So, I had that interest with him. And then, one of the counselors there was interested in local history. He supported me, but when you're in that job, you become an independent historian. And so, you are teaching younger ones how to do it. Adrienne White: Yeah. Were there any other people that mentored you during your career, whether it was when you were working for the [LDS] Church through the Historical Department or when you were directing the Church History Museum? Glen M. Leonard: Like I said, there were some of these professors and some administrators and there were bishops here in the ward who took me under their arm and who wanted me to know them and get acquainted with their daughters. [chuckling] The [Utah Agricultural] Experiment Station, which is from Utah State [University]... We were right here in North Farmington… The house is still there in a big field. So, they had that field and another just on the Kaysville part and they were testing how to grow things. It was my job to oversee the irrigation and there were two persons from the country of India who came to Logan to learn from them, and one of them went to California, the other one… He and I became very close because he wanted to learn all about Mormons and Utah and the [LDS] Church. He wanted to talk about him, or his history. So, I'm the one that worked with him on doing his little projects… How to grow food cheaply for his people. When he finished, he went home. His parents picked a wife for him. He came back here and spent a few weeks talking to people and then he went up into the Wisconsin area, and that's where they lived. They got a job at that university, both together. So, I was influenced by that. I saw the world outside differently. And I saw a couple of guys that were appointed, before he and I were there, local guys who could swear and go over to get their coffee there at that little shop. And so, I got acquainted with that, and you learn that way, too. And they knew who my parents were and so they would joke with me to hear the jokes that my dad never told. [chuckling] Well, you know, it's that interest in that type of work… With irrigation, you had to do it at certain times, and sometimes the properties where we had been building hay, and I'd have to come up here at night to turn it on at certain turns and watch for snakes. [laughing] Adrienne White: Great, thank you. Are there any publications written by other people that have impacted your own publications or your career path? Glen M. Leonard: Leonard Arrington and Davis Bitton.4 Davis looked after me also. He felt I was somebody who was good for the [LDS] Church and good for history. So, those two seemed to be more interested in me than some of the others. There was one professor from BYU who got promoted here. He and I didn’t get along at all. He wanted it his way. [chuckling] And he was more church-oriented and he was critical of students… The others encouraged without challenging. Adrienne White: Yeah, thank you. How did the previous generation of Mormon historians impact your career? 4 Ronald Davis Bitton (1930-2007) was a professor of history at the University of Utah and assistant church historian for the LDS Church, working with Leonard J. Arrington. He was a charter member of the MHA and served as president of the MHA from 1971 to 1972. Glen M. Leonard: It’s because I read them and enjoyed what they were saying and wanted to be that kind of writer. Adrienne White: Great. Are there any other important relationships that have shaped your career as a Mormon historian that you'd like to mention? Glen M. Leonard: That's all. Adrienne White: Okay. We're gonna talk about your presidency with MHA in the next several questions… What year did you serve as president of the MHA? Glen M. Leonard: It's in here somewhere. [pointing to provided autobiographical materials] Adrienne White: Okay, great. I'll add it.5 Perfect… Where was the conference located the year that you were president? [long pause] I can also add that later. Glen M. Leonard: You know, I think it was somewhere locally here. Either in Layton or Farmington, somewhere in there where I knew my way around. Could have been Farmington.6 Adrienne White: Do you happen to remember who the speaker for the Tanner lecture was that year? Glen M. Leonard: No. Adrienne White: That's okay. Aside from serving as president, did you serve any other positions on the MHA board or on committees? Glen M. Leonard: Well, when you are a member there… There are assignments, but I don't remember the details. Adrienne White: That's okay. Aside from planning and scheduling the conference, were there any other accomplishments that you achieved during your presidency? Glen M. Leonard: I was helping to get the journal back up and going. So, my name is in there as one of the editors and we brought a lot of others, but, you know… The editor and a couple of the others really decided that, you know, whether it went… Adrienne White: Yeah. Was there a time when the Journal of Mormon History was put on pause? Glen M. Leonard: I don't know. 5 6 Glen M. Leonard was president of the MHA from 2012 to 2013. The 48th MHA conference in 2013 was hosted in Layton, Utah. Adrienne White: Okay. Glen M. Leonard: I think once it got going, it kept going. Adrienne White: Oh, okay. Glen M. Leonard: In fact, I think the first year was the year I was there and Leonard Arrington got it done. That's where it started.7 Adrienne White: Do you remember encountering any challenges during your presidency? Glen M. Leonard: Well, there's [the] Mountain Meadows [Massacre].8 Of course, some of the brethren said, “We don't talk about it.” This new generation said, “We do, and we do it in a way to help people understand it.” And I was in that generation who helped people see it in a way that they understood it. And we found people whose ancestors were there [doing the] killing… And Leonard and the staff… Someone there would visit with their descendants and make them feel okay about what had happened. I went down [to the Mountain Meadows Massacre site] a lot, and I took two or three tour groups there, and they said, “We don't want you to do that anymore, you know, you're not going there anymore.” [chuckling] And [now], they go on their own. Adrienne White: Great, thank you for sharing. What are your thoughts on the role that MHA plays in the field of Mormon history? Glen M. Leonard: They have a great, important role because there are just a few historians that want to teach and talk to the public. And so, they bring other historians outside the group and have these conferences, which brings anyone interested in history that has a Utah, Mormon, or Western history [background]. And it was a way to send the message out without being anti-Mormon and that was an important accomplishment for all of us doing that and now the brethren are comfortable with this. Adrienne White: Great. Do you happen to remember approximately what year you attended your first MHA conference? Glen M. Leonard: I have the information in there. [pointing to provided autobiographical materials] Adrienne White: Okay, great. Do you happen to remember what the most recent conference you attended or approximately what year that was? 7 The Journal of Mormon History is an official publication of the MHA. Its purpose is to publish scholarly work covering the full scope of Mormon history, which represents domestic and international perspectives of the several religious organizations that descend from what was first called the Church of Christ in 1830. MHA, organized in 1965, began publishing the journal as a single issue in 1974. Single yearly issues continued through 1991 (vols. 1-17; 1986-1987 were combined into one issue, v. 13; no vol. 12 was published). Two issues of the Journal were published annually from 1992 through 2005 (vols. 18-31), and three issues appeared in both 2006 and 2007 (vols. 32-33). Beginning in 2008 (vol. 34) the Journal became a quarterly. 8 Massacre at Mountain Meadows was written by Richard E. Turley, Jr., Ronald W. Walker, and Glen M. Leonard and published by Oxford University Press in 2008. Glen M. Leonard: I guess we haven't been going for three or four years. My health was making it hard to attend. Adrienne White: Before the pandemic, it sounds like. Glen M. Leonard: Yeah, it might have been then. Adrienne White: Okay, so maybe 2019 or so. Glen M. Leonard: Whenever that is. Adrienne White: Yeah. Thinking about the first conference that you went to and the most recent conference that you went to… How would you describe the evolution or the change in MHA across time? Glen M. Leonard: Well, the first one in California… It was brand new. And so, there were a lot of California Mormons that were interested and some historians of Western history that were interested. So, it was a way to start the idea that you'll be interested in what we want to do. That was Leonard's responsibility, but I was there.9 And they were interested in looking at [LDS] Church historical sites, and we were interested – the group of us – because there were church buildings that were being torn down with art in them. And so, the two of us would go and decide which ones should be saved and which ones weren't. Adrienne White: You and Paul [Anderson]?10 Glen M. Leonard: Mhm. And we found a gun in one of these gun collections that… Someone had connected and gave it to us in Utah. We went down there… I wouldn't know which was which… And he said, “This one… [chuckling] A rare one… An early one…” [chuckling] Important, historically important. It was an old, early Mormon gun. Adrienne White: Wow. Have you noticed any significant changes in MHA, across the decades, that are worth mentioning? Glen M. Leonard: No, I haven't. It's still like it is and it’s meant to be. It's for professional historians to get together and to invite others to come and share their interests and learn from us. Adrienne White: Great. What are your hopes for the future of MHA? Glen M. Leonard: That they keep going as they're going. And I think they will. There's interest there. 9 The first MHA conference took place in 1966 in Portland, Oregon. The conference likely being referred to by Glen was the second MHA conference that was hosted in Palo Alto, California in 1967. 10 This story is not in reference to MHA. Glen and Paul Anderson worked together in the LDS Church’s History Division. Adrienne White: Yeah, I agree. How would you describe the changes that Mormon history has experienced? Glen M. Leonard: You notice that Mormon history goes beyond Utah. So, what's happening is… Histories of the [LDS] Church around the world are being encouraged and the work is being done by the people who live there. And so, they are inviting them to say… Here is a family… The first that were here… Preserve that and help us find out what's going on with the others because that's part of the [LDS] Church's history that needs to be recorded. Adrienne White: Great. Were there any other Mormon historians that impacted your work through collaboration? Glen M. Leonard: I've mentioned those. Adrienne White: Yeah… So, did you ever collaborate, work with, co-write or co-publish any of your projects with them? Glen M. Leonard: Well, they wanted to redo the Mountain Meadows, and I was going to do those myself, but there was one in Provo that wanted to do it and the boss at our headquarters wanted to do it. So, a professor from BYU [Ronald W. Walker] wrote the first part, Rick [Turley] wrote the second part, and I wrote the last part when they killed him [John D. Lee].11 Adrienne White: And we're going to talk about that project! Glen M. Leonard: People bought it to read that and weren't interested in the preparations. So, that part of it was still available, still publishable, and what people like to read. Adrienne White: What projects do you hope will be completed in the future? What types of research projects or what publications do you hope to see come out of Mormon history? Glen M. Leonard: By me or from others? Adrienne White: From others. Glen M. Leonard: Oh. Well, I think what I see is what I like, and that is giving these Mormon histories of the [LDS] Church around the world. And that's going and it will grow. Adrienne White: Yeah. Do you have an answer for yourself… Now that you've finished your autobiography and you have several projects finished… Do you have anything else that you hope to take care of? Glen M. Leonard: Well, I'm still working on my own biography. I've got to finish that. And then the book that I wrote for the Northwest States… I would like to get that published. 11 John Doyle Lee (1812-1877) was a member of the Council of Fifty in the LDS Church. He was ex-communicated from the church for his complicity in the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre. He was sentenced to death and was executed by firing squad at the site of the massacre in 1877. Adrienne White: Great. We’re going to move into the individualized questions that I’ve prepared for you. They’re a little bit longer, so I’m happy to repeat myself if needed. You grew up in Farmington and you currently live in Farmington. I imagine that this connection to Davis County is what prompted you to write a history of Davis County, Utah. How did your personal experiences in Davis County influence the narrative and shape your interpretation of the history you uncovered during your research? Glen M. Leonard: In those days, the population in Davis County was small with lots of farms. I grew up with parents and siblings and high school people in that world. And so, what I knew was… That sense of Davis County as farmers and I have helped preserve their history because the publishers now are getting fewer and fewer of those kinds of people. In some areas, there's a bunch of them, especially further north. Adrienne White: Did you happen to learn anything about Davis County or Farmington during your research that you didn't know? Glen M. Leonard: Of course, yes. Adrienne White: What are some of the interesting things that you learned along the way? Glen M. Leonard: So, I got into the political part of it. The competition between Kaysville and Layton, where Kaysville was trying to control Layton and Layton was breaking away. And now look at all the little villages up there because that land was hard to grow and no water. And so, what was happening is… Making water available from that big river coming out. And so, you know, that's part of what was changing in my growing years. And… That's what I'm thinking about on that question. Adrienne White: That's great. Thank you. You served as both the managing editor of the Utah Historical Quarterly and as the associate editor of the Journal of Mormon History in the 1970s. How did these two roles impact your research, your writing, and your relationships in Mormon history? Glen M. Leonard: Well, it did help me get published. I published some articles that way. It helped me get acquainted with others who are interested in Mormon history, and Davis County history, and Utah history. And so, I'm learning from them and learning from some of the professors they're involved with, and the historian… I think I mentioned… The one that came from the eastern states and wanted me to be a historian over there. [chuckling]... I'm a Farmington person, folks, [chuckling] which is rare. Most of my siblings are either in Kaysville or Bountiful or somewhere else. Adrienne White: So, you worked as a senior research associate at the LDS Church History Division before you became the Director of the LDS Museum of Church History and Art. Glen M. Leonard: Yes. Adrienne White: Were there any specific projects or initiatives that were particularly impactful or meaningful to you when you were working at the Church Historical Department? Glen M. Leonard: I think I mentioned it, but I was interested, as were others on the staff, to see that the history of the church outside Utah was collected. And we had these annual programs where we had them send their art to us from all over, and encouraged people to buy them. These were for selling, which helps them and helps the public here to realize art is different in different places, and we need to accept their way of creating these visions of their countries and their teachings. Adrienne White: When you were traveling across the country with Paul Anderson and going to the [LDS] Church's historical sites, was that before the Church History Museum was established or was that happening simultaneously? Glen M. Leonard: Simultaneously. Adrienne White: Okay. Do you have any stories from those travels that you'd like to mention? Glen M. Leonard: What we found while we were going there… There were Latter-day Saints who were interested in those projects, those buildings, those cities and towns… [chuckling] These little Mormon towns. And so, what we were doing was giving them an opportunity to learn about their history – visually as well as historically. And that brought both sides – both there and here – to get acquainted with each other… The different cultures and different [interpretations of] what's beautiful. [chuckling] Adrienne White: That's great. It sounds like that was probably a really nice experience to have. Glen M. Leonard: Well, like I said, I was even… I got a couple of jobs, got a couple of interviews to be hired, either as historians or newspaper people, and live somewhere else. Adrienne White: When you and Paul were traveling and visiting all these historical sites across the country… Do you happen to remember how long that took you? Was it a year or was it across several years? Glen M. Leonard: It was several years. One of the things that we wanted to do is put up those signs that had information… That might have been one time. Another time was to get them cleaned up or get what's inside as authentically accurate. It was a process of years. Adrienne White: Mhm. Great. So, you were the director of the Church History Museum for 28 years. What are some of your favorite memories from this chapter of your life? Glen M. Leonard: You know, one of the things was getting acquainted with these people who came in that we hired. We would have a Christmas party with them and that was fun, to [have them] bring their spouses. We would have people coming who were looking for information about their ancestors. So, it's a sense of us serving them and finding answers to questions they have. Adrienne White: That's great. During the planning and development phase for the museum, did you experience any challenges? Glen M. Leonard: Well, one was where to put it, [laughing] because we had to tear down the Relief Society building. [laughing] And so, the General Authorities worked through this [with the] Relief Society on that issue [by saying], “It will be better for you in this way.” [long pause] And remember they used to have the place where you go swimming? [laughing] Adrienne White: Is that the Warm Springs or…? Glen M. Leonard: Well, that's one, but the [LDS] Church had a building right downtown. If you go up to the capitol and come down, right on that corner. And so, when I was here in my teens and we'd take the kids – young men down there to swim – you swam naked. And, of course, that was an interesting experience for everyone. [laughing] Adrienne White: Was that at the Deseret Gym? Glen M. Leonard: Yes. Adrienne White: Yeah, and it was men only. Glen M. Leonard: Yes. And then, as families, we used to go up into Idaho there for the events that… Where the Sunday school would sponsor that tour. And you'd have food, and dancing, and swimming. [chuckling] Adrienne White: Are there any other memories from your time as the director of the museum that you'd like to mention? Glen M. Leonard: I can't think of any more. Adrienne White: Okay. So, the year after you retired from your directorship at the museum, the book that you co-wrote with Richard Turley and Ron Walker, Massacre at Mountain Meadows, came out. As a result of your extensive research, did any of your findings reshape your understanding of the events that took place? Glen M. Leonard: It did for us and, therefore, for others because there was an anti view that existed, which wasn't, “Get it all right.” And the [LDS] Church wanted to get it right, not to hide things, but open up. And that was the beginning of that opening process in the church. So, we were one of those programs because of that particular issue down there. “All the Mormons didn't do anything, you know.” That's where we started. Adrienne White: Do you think, aside from what you've already shared about the book… Did it have any other impact on the Mormon history community? Glen M. Leonard: There were some people who wouldn't read it because they didn't want to know. They wanted to read happy Mormon history. That’s all I can think of. Adrienne White: Have you read Vengeance is Mine,12 the Mountain Meadows Massacre book that came out last year by Richard Turley and Barbara Jones Brown? Glen M. Leonard: I read that one and the one they did earlier. Adrienne White: Is there a particular story that you've encountered throughout your research that has left a lasting impression on you? Glen M. Leonard: That's it. Adrienne White: Mountain Meadows? [Glen nodding] Yeah. Do you happen to remember how long you three were working on that book for? Glen M. Leonard: I can't remember. Probably three years. Adrienne White: As you reflect on your body of work, what legacy do you hope to leave behind? Glen M. Leonard: What do you mean… Legacy? Adrienne White: How do you want future generations to remember you and your contributions? Glen M. Leonard: Well, as a historian – a Mormon historian – I wanted to give them an honest, helpful history of the [LDS] Church and issues that have been challenging. Adrienne White: Last question. As one of the foremost scholars in the field of Mormon history, what advice do you have for future generations of Mormon historians? Glen M. Leonard: I think that it will be staying alive and growing. People are interested in Mormon history. Adrienne White: Did you learn any lessons through your own research, especially with the Mountain Meadows book, that in some ways could be perceived as controversial? Glen M. Leonard: Well, the event is a difficult issue. And we have to recognize that they were doing bad things. We have to always remember why they were doing that and what motivated them to do that so that we can clarify what was happening and why. 12 Vengeance is Mine: The Mountain Meadows Massacre and Its Aftermath was written by Richard E. Turley, Jr. and Barbara Jones Brown and published by Oxford University Press in 2023. Adrienne White: So, I’m going to throw in one more question here. As you reflect back on your life and on your career, is there anything else that you’d like to mention or share? Glen M. Leonard: I served a mission for the [LDS] Church and went to New Zealand. And then I did a mission in southern Utah with my wife – my first wife. Then I went with my second wife to revisit New Zealand and Australia. So, I think getting out and seeing that part of the world was a good experience. Adrienne White: That's great. Thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate you taking the time, not only to speak with me and welcome me into your home, but also sharing these additional materials on paper. I'm really looking forward to reading through those and getting to know you even better through those materials. Alright. Do you want to review it and mention anything else? Glen M. Leonard: [flipping through papers] No. Adrienne White: Alright. Well, thank you so much. It was so great to get to know you and I'm really excited that we've recorded your history for future generations. Glen M. Leonard: Well, thank you. Adrienne White: You’re welcome. Recording ended after 56:18.