Mormon History Association Oral History Interview with Richard W. Sadler on March 21, 2024

This oral history interview with Richard W. Sadler, conducted on March 21, 2024, explores his extensive career as a historian specializing in Mormon and Utah history, his academic leadership, and his significant contributions to public service. Sadler discusses his educational journey at the University of Utah, his 49-year tenure at Weber State, and his pivotal role as the first editor of the Journal of Mormon History. He shares insights into the challenges and evolution of historical research, particularly regarding access to sensitive church documents and the importance of academic integrity. The interview also highlights his involvement in various community and educational boards, including the Weber County School Board and the Utah State School Board, and his collaborative research with his wife, Claudia Spencer Sadler, on their shared Spencer ancestry and Mormon women's history.

MHA Oral History Interview: Richard W. Sadler March 21, 2024 at 10:00 AM Mountain Time in Ogden, UT Attendees Adrienne White and Richard W. Sadler Transcript This editable transcript was computer-generated and has been edited by Adrienne White for accuracy. Adrienne White: Okay, so what is your full name? Richard W. Sadler: Richard Wallace Sadler. Adrienne White: And what is your date of birth? Richard W. Sadler: I was born May 25th, 1940 at St. Mark's Hospital in Salt Lake City. I grew up in Magna, Utah. I was the eldest of their seven children. I not only grew up in Magna, but I went to Webster Elementary School and Brockbank Junior High and then Cyprus High. My dad, who worked for Kennecott Copper all of his life, and my mother… Both from the very beginning were stressing the need to be educated… The need to not work in a menial job where people went on strike and there was difficulty. And so, they were stressing college from the very beginning, including all kinds of things related to my primary education. Adrienne White: That's great. What were your parents' names? Richard W. Sadler: My dad was Wallace Ford Sadler and my mother was Dorothy Taylor Sadler. They both came from Mormon stock. And so, the Mormon Church was an important part of my growing up. My dad was my bishop when I was a teenager, which was an interesting experience to be the bishop's son. Adrienne White: Do you have anything else you want to say about that? Richard W. Sadler: I was fairly successful as a student in high school – getting some scholarships and immediately went to the University of Utah. My first two years at the University of Utah were a real learning experience because college is a much different experience educationally than public school is. Even though, in both places, I found teachers and professors who were very interested in educating students. In the summer of 1960, when I had just turned 20, I received a mission call to Northern California. The Northern California mission was a huge mission – about half of California, much of Nevada, part of Southern Oregon – and I had never been in a city larger than Salt Lake City until I got to San Francisco and was just blown away by the streetcars, the cable 1 cars. It was just an amazing educational and religious experience to be in San Francisco and several other places in Northern California. For me, it was a great experience. Then I came back and finished my next two years at the University of Utah. Interestingly, I was the first one in my family to go to college. I felt like – almost in a puritanical way – that I really needed to take enough hours, so that I was getting the value out of the scholarships and out of the tuition I was paying. And so, I took 19 and 18 hours, generally, in all of the quarters that I was at [the University of] Utah. So, I graduated early in my fourth year and began my master's program. I had also met my wife in March of 1964 on a blind date. Her name was Claudia Spencer. After about a week of dating, I thought, “This is who I ought to marry.” And we got along really well. As I came near the end of my bachelor's degree, I had begun thinking about what I wanted to do. I had gotten a teacher's certificate from the College of Education and had done student teaching. I had also, between quarters, been doing some substitute teaching, and I realized that I wasn't certain public education was what I wanted to do. So, I applied and was accepted to [the University of] Utah's master's program and began to take master's degree classes. I found that I was quite interested in thinking about college teaching… Teaching college students was, for me, a much more acceptable thing to do than teaching in the public schools. As I began to work on my master's degree, I was looking for a topic to write on… And at about this same time, Claudia and I were married. I had taken many of my undergraduate classes in Orson Spencer1 Hall at the University of Utah. I had found out that Orson Spencer was the first Chancellor of the University of Deseret and I just knew that that eventually became the University of Utah. And so I thought, “Maybe Orson Spencer is a guy that I could research and write on,” because as I did research, no one had ever written on Orson Spencer before. The other reason that that worked well was because Claudia came from Orson's brother, Daniel Spencer.2 And thus, as I began to work on my master's thesis and we were married, she began to gather things on her Spencer ancestors, which later we would turn into a book manuscript. Three Spencer brothers were converted to the Mormon Church. Daniel first, her great-great-grandfather, and then Daniel converted Hiram, his brother, and Orson, his brother. Orson was a Baptist minister. And thus, the three of them and their families moved to Nauvoo. And thus, my interest in Mormon history was piqued. In part because of this, in part because of my heritage, in part as well because Claudia and I were married in 1965 and moved into University Village where we lived for four years. We lived in a single apartment. One bedroom, one living room, one bathroom, and a kitchen and an eating space combined and the rent never changed – $62.50 a month for everything, except our phone expense. It was an amazing bargain at that time. Not long after starting to go to church, and beginning to talk with some of the other people in our ward, a member of our bishopric came to me and said, “I think with your interest in history, you might be interested in a new magazine that is just being published.” I said, “What 1 Orson Spencer (1802-1855) served as an editor and writer on many newspapers after his conversion to the LDS Church and was named the first chancellor of the University of Deseret in 1850. 2 Daniel Spencer (1794-1868) was the last mayor of Nauvoo, Illinois and served as president of the Salt Lake City Stake from 1849 until his death. 2 is that called?” … “That magazine,” he said, “is called Dialogue.”3 And I said, “That sounds very interesting.” He said, “Well, it's currently being published out of the Palo Alto area.” I had known Palo Alto because I had been there in the mission field. And, in particular, Eugene England4 was very involved with doing this. And I didn't know Eugene England at the time. I came to know him a great deal later. But, I became an initial subscriber to Dialogue and continue to be a subscriber to Dialogue with all of its ups and downs, just like everything else has ups and downs in terms of what goes on. Also, at about the time that Dialogue began to be published, there was discussion that a new organization had started and it was called the Mormon History Association. And I, of course, was very interested in getting acquainted, on the ground floor if possible… And it came along about 1965 or ‘66 that Leonard Arrington began to draw together some people that would be involved in the Mormon History Association… I need to take time out to tell you just a couple of other things right now that I'm involved with at this moment, which makes this room a little messy. You see some boxes here, and you see some over there. I've been, for about 25 years, on the Evans Biography Award Reading Committee, and I'm in the process of reading 40 books now. One of them is Mike Quinn's5 memoirs… Books that were published in 2022 and 2023 about all sorts of biographies of the American West and thus, that's another way that I keep up on. One of the books I just read four or five days ago was Tom Alexander's6 book on John Widtsoe7 and other kinds of things. So, I'm about halfway through the books at this point reading, making an analysis, ranking the books, and all of that. So, that's a very beneficial thing to me, to keep me busy at this particular point to do things. At any rate, since I was a graduate student, I received my master's degree, and I talked with some people at the University of Utah, and they said, “Often we send our students away, but we would like to keep some of our good students here.” So, I stayed for my doctorate at the University of Utah in the same apartment where we had been living and I became more broadly associated with the people in the history department and became more broadly associated with people at the Institute of Religion at the University of Utah. I had known a variety of people who were influential in my life. One of them was T. Edgar Lyon.8 You could go ask him all kinds of questions and be certain that he would give you the correct answers, not just the politically correct answers, but the correct answers. Another one was a man named Lowell Bennion.9 Interestingly, he was so honest and forthright that he was fired 3 Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought is an independent quarterly that was established in 1966 to express Mormon culture and to examine the relevance of religion to secular life. 4 George Eugene “Gene” England, Jr. (1933-2001) was a Mormon historian who founded Dialogue: A Journal ofMormon Thought in 1966 and co-founded the Association for Mormon Letters in 1976. 5 Dennis Michael Quinn (1944-2021) was an LDS historian, author, and professor. He taught at BYU from 1976 until 1988. His research and writing concerned church involvement with plural marriage after the 1890 Manifesto when polygamous marriages were prohibited. He was excommunicated from the LDS Church as one of the September Six in 1993 6 Thomas Glen Alexander (1935-present) is an LDS historian and professor emeritus at BYU where he was also the Lemeul Hardison Redd, Jr. Professor of Western History and director of the Charles Redd Center for Western Studies. He taught history at BYU from 1964 to 2004. He was president of the MHA from 1974 to 1975. He currently sits on the board of the MHA as the organization’s historian. 7 John A. Widtsoe (1872-1952) was a Norwegian-American scientist, author, and religious leader who served as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles from 1921 until his death. 8 Thomas Edgar Lyon (1903-1978) was an LDS historian who wrote about early LDS history, primarily the Nauvoo period. He served as president of the MHA from 1968 to 1969. 9 Lowell L. Bennion (1908-1996) founded the Institute of Religion next to the University of Utah in 1934. He founded the first food bank and homeless shelters in Utah. 3 by the [LDS] Church in 1962 and thus took a position for a while at the University of Utah, and then became very involved in service projects. I have just finished reading one of the Evans books on Lowell Bennion that revealed some things that I did not know, including the fact that he had a gay son, and how for all of us, when we have our children get into some kind of difficulty… and you could just feel his Christian ethics being involved with how his son was treated and excommunicated from the Mormon Church and what a difficult time that would have been. At any rate, I stayed at the University of Utah and became involved with a very interesting professor – a man whose name was Alfred Cave.10 Al Cave was very threatening to graduate students. He was short, he was stocky, he was brilliant, and the University of Utah history department was undergoing a schism at the time. There were the older historians – many of whom were Western historians – and Mormon historians like David Miller. The newer historians, like Al Cave and Jim Clayton, were gradually taking over the department. And thus, there was a splinter in the department. There was a very quiet European historian, who I found later on was quite an expert on Mormon history, and his name was Davis Bitton.11 We became friends in terms of how he wrote and what he did and the kinds of things that went on. But at any rate, I decided that in part because of the splinter in the department and in part because I was working, I wanted to work with Al Cave as my dissertation chair. I would switch to more mainstream American history. I had become very interested in what was happening politically before the Civil War. So, I began to talk with Al… I never called him Al at the time. I always called him Dr. Cave. But as my graduate work continued, he began to have some health problems. We began to get closer and he began to have me teach some of his classes because there was trust between us and he was just an extremely helpful person. I suggested a topic to him that was, at the time, somewhat cutting edge because I said, “I'd like to analyze the votes in Congress that are taken on slavery between 1840 and 1854 when the Whig Party began to disintegrate and how slavery broke the Whig Party up.” I began to talk with a friend of mine in University Village – a friend who was in computer science named Bruce Wilcox. He was getting his PhD, and I explained to him what I was thinking of doing, and he said, “Well, we could put all of the votes on computer cards, and then we could analyze what's going on.” And he was going to do this for me, of course, just to help. Al Cave said, “That would be a great project to work on,” because Cave was interested in Jacksonian America and the Whigs and he had done some research. But he said, “No one I know has done this kind of computer-based research on the Whigs.” And so that became my dissertation project. So, I had the dissertation project, but I first needed to learn French and German, and that seemed to be a daunting task, but I thought, “Well, I think I can do this.” And so I taught myself French by learning to read, among other things, the Count of Montecristo in French and I passed the French exam on the first try. I probably should have gone to Spanish next with its relationship to French, but for some reason I thought I would learn German. Another fellow and I – an older graduate student named Floyd O'Neill – who was interested in getting his PhD, but had come into the program older – we hired a German speaking secretary at the University of Utah to tutor us. She tutored us well and I passed German on the first try. I was amazed at how miraculous it was to learn German. I didn't learn German nearly as well as French, but I have found, later 10 Alfred A. Cave (1935-2019) was a professor, historian, and author who specialized in the ethnohistory of Colonial America, Native Americans, and the Jacksonian era. 11 Ronald Davis Bitton (1930-2007) was a professor of history at the University of Utah and assistant church historian for the LDS Church, working with Leonard J. Arrington. He was a charter member of the MHA and served as president of the MHA from 1971 to 1972. 4 in traveling through Europe, that both German and French came back to me, particularly reading. Not as much speaking, but in terms of reading. But at any rate, I was teaching some of Al Cave's classes. I was teaching some of my own classes – my own American civilization classes. I began to teach for BYU at the McCune School in downtown Salt Lake on North Main Street. It was a beautiful building to teach history in. I also taught early morning seminary for the Mormon Church at East High School during this period. I researched and wrote my dissertation and graduated in the spring of 1969. So, four years for a PhD and some of my computer science friends who would help me. They were continuing along in school, but they liked to fool around with computers. And of course, I didn't know much about computers until the mid-1980s when things came about. Getting a job for newly minted PhDs was not an easy task. But again, miraculously, a job turned up at Weber State. After accepting a job in Texas, and the job offer never came in the mail, I accepted a job to teach history at Weber State, and we moved to Ogden in 1969 and have been here ever since. I taught history beginning as an assistant professor in 1969, becoming very involved in some college politics in the 1970s, where a new president came – a man named Joseph Bishop – who was a Mormon and wanting to step up in the profession. I became the chair of the faculty senate and we finally had the Mormon Church bail us out when he was called to be a mission president in Argentina. Joseph Bishop just did not seem to understand being a college president. But the presidents following him, people like Rod Brady and Steve Nadauld, were much more attuned to doing the kinds of things that a college president should be. Alternatively, I taught history from 1969 till ‘85, when I became the dean of the College of Social and Behavioral Sciences. And although I didn't expect to stay there long, I was a dean for 26 years. Then, I decided it was time to give up the dean's job, and I went back to full-time teaching in 2011 or 2012 and left in 2018 after 49 years of teaching at Weber State. So, that kind of explains my academic career. Shall we go back and talk about the Mormon History Association? Adrienne White: Yeah, I have a few questions for you. Richard W. Sadler: Let me stop so you can get your questions in. Adrienne White: That was so great. You covered so many of the topics that I wanted to talk about and I really appreciate that. This is why these oral histories are so important. You know, I did research on you before coming to your home and many of the details you shared are not readily available online without talking to you and hearing from you directly about what your story has been. So, I just really appreciate you sharing these details. So, you got all three of your degrees from the University of Utah? Richard W. Sadler: My bachelor's degree in 1964. Adrienne White: Was that in education or history? Richard W. Sadler: It was in history with a teaching certificate attached. A master's degree with no language – an MS in 1965 and then a PhD in 1969. 5 Adrienne White: Wonderful. So, I know you've been involved in a lot of different organizations. I'd love to hear more about your academic service and your institutional affiliations. What other boards and committees have you served on throughout your career aside from serving as president of the MHA? Richard W. Sadler: Let me come to that in just a moment. Adrienne White: Okay. Richard W. Sadler: Let me go back to just one also quite significant experience that I had while I was researching Orson Spencer. This was my initial foray into really looking at documents, really dealing with libraries, really seeing things differently. It was an experience that helped shape my thinking and my career and my interest in Mormon history. The first place that I started to do research on Mormon history was in the [LDS] Church Historian's Office. The church historian at the time was Joseph Fielding Smith,12 who had been the church historian for decades and was very possessive of what he did. His chief lieutenant, the man that he had check what people were researching, was a man named A. William Lund…13 A. William Lund was the son of an earlier Mormon Apostle and First Presidency member named Anthon Lund, who was a counselor to Joseph F. Smith… A. William Lund must have been a big man, but when I came to meet him, he was an older guy, something like me at this stage. He wore pants that were twice his size, but he of course was saying, “I'm not going to buy new pants,” and he had suspenders. He would check every time I was leaving my notes. I was thinking that writing history means that you tell things like it was, and I had come across Orson Spencer being a councilman in Nauvoo, and a woman coming to him and saying… and this is of course in the midst of plural marriage starting and a variety of people not in fact certain about what's going on with plural marriage. As with all new doctrines, things are a little bit fuzzy. The woman said to Orson Spencer, “I am now pregnant.” These are close to her words, but they're now my words. “And if this man does not marry me, the child will be born a bastard.” That was exactly what was on the record that I read. I showed my notes to Will Lund. He said, “Oh, you can't use that word.” I said, “Which word?” He said, “Bastard. You can't use that word. I need you to agree that you won't use that word. You need to use something else like…” and I think he was suggesting that the child will be illegitimate or something, but I felt so strongly wanting to represent this woman and what she said that I agreed with him, but then put “bastard” in the master's thesis. Because you find people wanting to change history for being politically correct. Another time, I had written in a book – that a colleague and I were writing about Ogden – about a black person who had been murdered. Just across the Utah-Wyoming border. And the person who recorded in his diary said, “Today an N-word was killed,” and that's what I put in the text of the book. The book people came back and said, in 1985, “That's not a word that we want to use.” I said, “That's the word that the foreman used in writing it in his diary. It's not a word I like to use,” but they took the word out when the book was published and put “a Negro was killed.” And that, for me, is unacceptable because that is not exactly what people said. So another time I used that quote, I used the N-word not because it's disrespectful to black people, but it is exactly how people were thinking in 1869 when that happened. 12 Joseph Fielding Smith (1876-1972) served in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1910. He was the Church Historian and Recorder. He served as the tenth president of the LDS Church from 1970 until his death. 13 A William Lund (1886-1971) served as an assistant LDS Church historian for almost sixty years. 6 A second story, as I'm doing research for Orson Spencer… I began doing research in the Kearns Mansion, where the current governor resides, which was the Utah State Historical Society at the time. And there is nothing more peaceful than going into a room where there are tables and people are researching and things are happening. And as I walk into the room on several occasions… Here I am, a young man in my mid-twenties, and I am looking around the room for a place to sit. And I see seated at a round table, an older woman. And I'm thinking, “I wonder what this old lady is researching. She's probably not nearly up on history like I am.” My ego was huge. And so we sat and began to introduce each other and either that first time or the second time I said, “My name is Richard Sadler,” and she says, “My name is Juanita Brooks.”14 Adrienne White: Oh my gosh! Richard W. Sadler: I thought, “Oh my heavens!” Because some people weren't even interested in talking about the Mount Meadow Massacre at the time, but she was. She had experiences with being treated badly because of her honesty. So, I had her autograph two or three books that I had of hers, and in one of them she wrote, “Good luck on your research, but you'll never get it all.” Meaning we never, ever get everything that we want. But she became a close friend that I visited in St. George, had dinner with in Logan, and was very influential on me and on my life in terms of being honest and truthful with what goes on in terms of what happens. At any rate, we'll come back to the Mormon History Association, but you wanted me to talk a bit about some other things I've been involved with. Adrienne White: Yes, your academic service and your institutional affiliations. Richard W. Sadler: I was at Weber State all of my academic career, even though I taught for BYU and the University of Utah part of the time. So, from 1969 until 2018, I was at Weber State. I felt the most important thing I did at Weber State was to teach students and was to be involved. Weber State had a fairly heavy teaching load. We taught four classes per quarter or a semester and, thus, we were expected to do research, but not nearly as much as the University of Utah or BYU. We had five children and I had been, for about 12 years, appointed to the Weber County Library Board. And my first experience there was in the midst of the difficulty at Weber State with the president, where I was the chair of the Faculty Senate for five years, and we eventually got rid of Joe Bishop. But the library was undergoing institutional difficulty with a library director – a man who was taking advantage of some people financially. And so, on that library board, we fired the director and hired a new library director in the mid-1970s, and she still continues to be the library director, and is a marvelous woman, whose name is Linda Wangsgard. She has broadened the Weber County library system. She has made it so welcoming for people, particularly children, but all sorts of people to come to be involved. One of our children, in fact – our second child, our first daughter – I went to visit at the elementary school, which was just down the street called Marlon Hills Elementary. And I found her sitting outside of the class where kids hung their coats. And I'm thinking, “What's going on? She is never a problem.” And I found out that, for some reason, the teacher thought 14 Juanita Brooks (1898-1989) was a historian and author who specialized in American West and Mormon history. Her most notable contribution was her book The Mountain Meadows Massacre. 7 she was a problem. So that led to my wife and I being involved in the PTA. We became the presidents of the PTA. Then I decided to run for the Weber County School Board and was elected for three four year terms on the Weber County School Board and I found that this was an opportunity to help make policy that I, and others, thought was best for children because that's what we should be interested in… How to improve children's education rather than having some other agenda for a variety of things. Some things I was successful on. I wanted to, for example, get rid of junior high school football so that we use the money for all junior high students to do activities rather than just junior high football, but I was voted down. Then, just in the past month, Weber County has done away with junior high football. One of my friends, Gene Sessions, texted me and said, “See, even if you're a little late, it's good to do certain kinds of things.” But I really felt that there was too much politics and people weren't as interested in all of the children. They were interested in certain children being advanced in terms of what went on. I also, at the time. became involved in an organization called the Utah School Boards Association. Each district had a representative, and I eventually was elected president of the Utah School Boards Association with the idea of giving school board members training in Utah – with a staunchly Republican legislature, that's not always easy to stand up to… But things like what just happened in the last six months with the school board member – the Utah school board member suggesting that a young woman was a lesbian, when in fact, she wasn't – and how embarrassing that was. Well, after three terms on the Weber County School Board – and I was president of the board sometimes and just a member of the board other times. Four years after I was off of the board, I ran for the Utah State School Board and from 2002 to 2006, I was on the state school board with a lot of very dedicated members and some people wanting public schools to be better, whereas the legislature wanted charter schools to be better. And there is a lot of involvement with legislators making money off of charter schools for building the schools and other kinds of things. But that's another story… And the first three years I was on the school board, a former teacher, a man named Kim Burningham, was the president of the Utah State School Board. And then he said, “I need to step down.” He did and I was elected for one year as the president of the Utah State School Board. So, I have been quite involved in education in the state and, in part, that was very helpful because curriculum often is determined by the school board. And when someone says, “We need more economic education. We need that kind of thing to be done.” And that sometimes edges out such things as history to be taught. And so, among other places, I became very involved with Tom Alexander, as we lobbied the state school board, before I was a member, to make certain that Utah history stayed in the curriculum – that teaching Utah history, which was in fact teaching part of why Mormon history and the beginnings of Utah is an important kind of thing. Another involvement that I had came in part through a colleague named Charles Peterson,15 who was a former president of the Mormon History Association when the Mormon History Association met in St. George. Charles Peterson was caught in the politics of the University of Utah. He was doing his research on a Mormon West topic. He was thus going to be given a position on the faculty at the University of Utah, but these other historians that were gaining more influence, including my chair, Al Cave, did not want more Western historians. And so they found a job for him with his PhD as the director of the Utah State Historical Society. So he and I became really good friends. And not long after he became the director of the State Historical Society and I came to Weber State, I was appointed to the Board of Editors of the 15 Charles S. Peterson (1927-2017) was a historian specializing in Mormon and Utah history. He was the director of the Utah State Historical Society and the editor of the society’s Utah Historical Quarterly. He wrote a bicentennial history of Utah. 8 Utah Historical Quarterly, and I kept that job for about 25 years until I was appointed to be on the State Board of History in the 1990s and became chair of the State Board of History. Sadly, history is not an urgent need for the legislature of Utah or for the politics of Utah. We do have a state historical society that makes all kinds of efforts, but it is not nearly as meaningful, nor as far reaching as it once was. But it is a significant organization and I still have a lot of very good friends who are involved with Utah history. And in fact, we decided we would put together a sesquicentennial history of Utah and they wanted an editor for that, so I accepted the job. The real important book that came out of that was Tom Alexander's book on Utah, the Right Place.16 Tom is such a great researcher, but I helped to edit the book and make it a little bit better. The book is by and large his book and it is a very successful book. We had four other books that were to come out, and only a couple have really come out as sesquicentennial books, so that was not as successful as we hoped that it would be, but I've had a good deal of involvement doing a variety of other kinds of things. Adrienne White: That's great. This is a perfect transition because we're going to talk about your research and your publications. Is that alright? Richard W. Sadler: Sure. Adrienne White: Okay. So, what Mormon history research topics have you focused on throughout your career? Richard W. Sadler: Well, initially, it was hard for me to separate Utah history and Mormon history because they were somewhat the same thing. As I joined the Mormon History Association, and also needed to show evidence of research and publication, I became involved with being the first editor of the Journal of Mormon History.17 [hands Adrienne a stack of early publications of the Journal of Mormon History] Adrienne White: Oh my goodness! Richard W. Sadler: And you will notice that the association wanted me to be involved as the editor, but notice who the associate editors are. Adrienne White: Tom Alexander and Jim Allen. Richard W. Sadler: Under the kind of tutelage of those guys and [gesturing to the early journals] this is a very thin first start, but it is also a start with… Look at the people that are involved. 16 Utah, the Right Place: The Official Centennial History was written by Thomas G. Alexander and published by Gibbs Smith Publisher in 1995. 17 The Journal of Mormon History is an official publication of the MHA. Its purpose is to publish scholarly work covering the full scope of Mormon history, which represents domestic and international perspectives of the several religious organizations that descend from what was first called the Church of Christ in 1830. MHA, organized in 1965, began publishing the journal as a single issue in 1974. Single yearly issues continued through 1991 (vols. 1-17; 1986-1987 were combined into one issue, v. 13; no vol. 12 was published). Two issues of the Journal were published annually from 1992 through 2005 (vols. 18-31), and three issues appeared in both 2006 and 2007 (vols. 32-33). Beginning in 2008 (vol. 34) the Journal became a quarterly. 9 Adrienne White: Yeah, I see Maureen Beecher,18 Glen Leonard,19 Jan Shipps,20 D. Michael Quinn, Davis Bitton, Ron Walker.21 They're all heavy hitters. Richard W. Sadler: You get to see the people that are particularly involved with Leonard Arrington, as he was the new historian for the [LDS] Church, even though they'll say, “Well, you've been okay, but we need you to move to BYU.” [gesturing to journals] This is the second one and you can just put this aside. This is the second one. You'll see some changes there on the editorship. Adrienne White: A whole board of editors. Richard W. Sadler: A whole board of editors at this point and I had known Glen Leonard at the University of Utah. Glen had initially gone to be involved with the Utah Historical Quarterly, but then was hired to work in the Church Historian's Office. [gesturing to journals] And so, here with Volume 3, Glen Leonard becomes the associate editor of the Journal of Mormon History. And in part, we were also trying to decide… “How is this magazine going to tell history?” [gesturing to a journal] And here we add Jill Derr22 as an assistant editor. Because Jill is very capable at doing things. [looking at a journals] And this one has Glen Leonard as well. And this one has Glen Leonard and Jill Derr again. And this is… Let's see… There are no count codes. Adrienne White: I have four. Richard W. Sadler: You have four? Adrienne White: You have four and I have four. Richard W. Sadler: So, I was the editor for eight years. [gesturing to a journal] And this is the last year, which begins to show a change because the new associate editor who, interestingly, I had been in the mission field with – Dean May23 becomes the editor after that. So, the first eight years, I was involved in seeking out articles, meeting people, learning about people. I got to know people like Michael Quinn and other kinds of people in a variety of 18 Maureen Ursenbach Beecher (1935-present) is a distinguished historian and editor specializing in LDS women, particularly her work on Eliza R. Snow. She served as president of the MHA from 1984 to 1985. 19 Glen M. Leonard (1938–) is a historian specializing in the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Davis County, and Farmington history. He served as president of the MHA from 2012 to 2013. Glen was interviewed for this oral history project by Adrienne White on April 25, 2024. 20 Jan Shipps (1929–) is regarded as the foremost non-Mormon scholar of LDS history. She was the first non-Mormon and the first woman elected president of the Mormon History Association, serving from 1979 to 1980. 21 Ronald Warren Walker (1939-2016) was a distinguished LDS historian and professor at BYU. He is best known for his work on the Mountain Meadows Massacre. He served as president of the MHA from 1991 to 1992. 22 Jill Mulvay Derr (1948-present) is a distinguished historian specializing in LDS women. She served as a senior research historian in the Church History Department for the LDS Church from 2005 to 2011. She served as president of the MHA from 1998 to 1999. 23 Dean L. May (1938-2003) was an academic, author, and documentary filmmaker. He was a member of the Utah State Board of History, editor of the Journal of Mormon History from 1982 to 1985, and served as president of the MHA from 2001 to 2002. 10 different ways and never realized of the turmoil that was going on both in Mormon history and in people's lives in terms of what went on. I came to see that struggle in 1974, just as I was beginning to edit this, because the Mormon History Association held its annual meeting in Nauvoo. And in order to get people to Nauvoo, buses were chartered. So, I got on a bus with a number of other people and we drove straight through to Nauvoo, stopping to get something to eat or to use the restroom, but generally straight through going and straight through coming. And the significance in part of that meeting was that I'm just really getting acquainted with scholarship and how it's done and having mentors like Juanita Brooks and Charles Peterson and other people who were involved. And not knowing entirely what's happening in Salt Lake with the struggle that Leonard Arrington wants to put out a good history. But there are people like Boyd Packer24 and Mark Petersen25 and even people in the history department that are spreading rumors that you can't trust certain people doing certain kinds of things. The president of theMormon History Association for Nauvoo was a guy named Reed Durham…26 Reed Durham had been a long-term Institute of Religion teacher. I had known him well. I had taken classes from him. We had talked about a lot of things. But in Nauvoo, he gave his presidential address, “Is There No Help for the Widow's Son?” and talked about Joseph Smith being involved in masonry and magic. And what historians do is they put out a thesis and have people critique it and that thesis gets changed over time as things happen. But Reed Durham got slapped down so hard and almost lost his position and was moved from Salt Lake City to Logan where he taught nothing but Book of Mormon classes ever again. And it was interesting to see what was going on. A second interesting thing to see was there were a lot of new and eventful things going on in the Mormon History Association. They included a lot of RLDS, at the time, Community of Christ27 people today, who we found theologically different, but were people and were friends. And so, over time, Mormon history meetings were a great place to get together and deal with things. I did research and published articles in the Utah State Historical Society, and one of the articles I published was on mining in Salt Lake City, and that, of course, reached back into my roots about copper mining and other kinds of things. And, of course, mining has always been a bit of a conundrum for the Mormon people. Brigham Young opposed it, but also sent a secret mining mission to California to get money for the church. Because I was in Ogden and because the area here could use some research, I began to be involved with a colleague of mine. His name was Richard Roberts. He was B. H. Roberts’28 24 Boyd K. Packer (1924-2015) was an LDS leader and educator who served as president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles from 2008 until his death. He served as acting president of the Quorum from 1994 until 2008. He began serving as a General Authority in 1961. 25 Mark E. Petersen (1900-1984) was an LDS leader and editor. He served as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles from 1944 until his death. He became managing editor of the Deseret News in 1935 and became editor in 1941. 26 Reed C. Durham, Jr. (1930-present) is an LDS historian and the former director of the Institute of Religion for the LDS Church. He is remembered for his controversial MHA presidential address given in 1974 about Freemasonry and the LDS movement. He served as president of the MHA 1973 to 1974. 27 The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (RLDS Church), now known as the Community of Christ, is the second largest denomination of the Latter-day Saint movement. The church’s presidents were historically chosen as a result of their biological connection to the church’s founder, Joseph Smith. 28 Brigham Henry Roberts (1857-1933) was a historian, politician, and leader in the LDS Church. He edited the seven-volume History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and independently wrote the seven-volume Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 11 grandson. He had B. H. Roberts’ leather trunk in his office and people would come in and say, “What's in the trunk?” And he would say, “The golden plates are in the trunk.” So, he was really a good guy to deal with. We wrote our first book together, Ogden: Junction City,29 and that was the book that didn't want to publish the word about black people. It was just as that book was being published in 1985, and I had stopped being the editor of the Journal of Mormon History, that I was approached by Mel Smith…30 Mel Smith had taken Charles Peterson's place at the Historical Society. And had been the president of the Mormon History Association and asked me if I would be the president of the Mormon History Association elect. I said, “Sure, I will do that. That's an important kind of thing.” And that would allow me to get much better acquainted with Richard Bushman31 because Richard Bushman has set such a great example of doing scholarly Mormon history – disagreeing at points with people, but not being disagreeable. And so, I got to meet with him several times in Mormon history meetings, and watched his gentle, tolerant scholarly nature operate. He is such a fine person. And the other interesting thing was… he was Richard and his wife was Claudia. I was Richard and my wife was Claudia. He said, “What does this mean?” I said, “I don't know.” Then I also began to learn that some people had planned in advance that, in 1987 when I would be president, the Mormon History Association would not hold its meeting in New York like it did in 1980, celebrating 150 years of Mormonism in New York or in St. George, but in England. And so there were a lot of very influential people who had influence and I had the opportunity to learn who they were. And earlier in 1987, two years after I had been appointed dean at Weber State, I went with Paul Anderson32 to England. This was a little later than was usually done, because the conference usually had a local arrangements chair, but we really didn't have anybody in England who knew quite what to do or how to do things. Paul was great to travel with and an interesting guy. He was the husband to a wife who would be honest and frank about what should be done. Lavina33 had great difficulty with being excommunicated and I still don't quite understand why she was not allowed to come back into the church, but she wasn't and she just died this past year. They have one son named Christian. Anyway, Paul and I spent two or three days, maybe four, I can't remember, in Oxford. An interesting thing related to that was, my son, Peter, worked at a scout camp when he was about 14 or 15, called Camp Kiesel up Ogden Canyon, up near Causey Reservoir. And a young man whose name was Stuart Cannon, was interested in Utah, but when he came was deluged with people wanting to give him a Book of Mormon every weekend. And eventually, he was baptized in the church. He was baptized at the Hyde Park Chapel in London, and Stuart met us and gave us some directions on things to do because neither Paul nor I had all of the answers. Anyway, we set things up in Oxford. We then went to Liverpool. We drove to 29 Ogden: Junction City was written by Richard C. Roberts and Richard W. Sadler and was published by Windsor Publications in 1985. 30 Melvin T. Smith (1928-2020) was a history professor at Dixie State University (now Utah Tech University) from 1965 to 1970 before becoming the director of the Utah State Historical Society from 1971 to 1986. He was president of the MHA from 1980 to 1981. 31 Richard Bushman (1931-present) is a historian and Gouverneur Morris Professor Emeritus of History at Columbia University. He is the author of Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. He served as president of the MHA from 1985-1986. Adrienne White interviewed him for this oral history project on March 8, 2024. 32 Paul L. Anderson (1946-2018) was an architect, an architectural historian, museum curator, and hymn writer. He married Lavina Fielding Anderson in 1977. He served as president of the MHA from 2007 to 2008. 33 Lavina Fielding Anderson (1944-2023) was an LDS scholar, writer, editor, and feminist. She worked on several LDS publications, including Ensign, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, and the Journal of Mormon History. She was excommunicated from the LDS Church as one of the September Six in 1993. 12 places like Preston and to some of the very early Mormon sites that Heber Kimball34 and Orson Hyde35 were involved with. Then we came back and sent out news about how much it was going to cost. We had a guy who was extremely helpful named Larry Gelwix, who put together the travel arrangements because we needed buses, we needed planes, we needed rooms. We had pretty well secured the rooms. We had arranged for all of the papers to be given in a lecture hall at Oxford. The success of that convention rested largely on that trip that Paul and I took in terms of what went on. So at any rate, my wife and I boarded the plane, flew to England, and became very involved in this rather immersed experience in England. I gave my presidential paper in Liverpool. [gesturing to a journal] You can see this is the journal that has both the Tanner lecture – by this time we had a Tanner lecture. I talked about Franklin D. Richards36 and the British Mission and the significance that it had – not realizing the relationship that Franklin Richards would have with the Spencer brothers, where my wife was doing the research and getting the material. Although Franklin had a great diary, Daniel Spencer also had a great diary. In 1849, Daniel was appointed the third stake president in Salt Lake. The first one was John Smith,37 who was also the patriarch. The second one was Charles Rich.38 Then, when four people are called to the Apostleship in 1849, Daniel Spencer is called to be the stake president. In the midst of being the stake president, Daniel, in 1852, after three years as stake president, is called on a mission to England, where he spends four years and is a counselor to Franklin Richards and Franklin's brother, Samuel Richards.39 Then Daniel is put, by Franklin, in charge of this new experiment to cross the plains with handcarts. So, that's a good part of the research that we were involved with there. As I began to write this research after I retired, I had Claudia read it to make suggestions and corrections. She said, “Do you know who's really left out in this history?” And I said, “Who?” She said, “The women.” I said, “You’re right.” The first of their Spencer ancestors who came to the New World was a guy named Gerard. There is quite a bit about Gerard – including that he had 12 children and they all outlived him except his oldest son who died before Gerard. But Gerard's wife, who's the mother of the 12 children's name is Hannah, and we don't know Hannah's last name. We don't know her background. So, I said to Claudia, “Why don't you start researching the wives?” [gesturing to research materials] So, this is her research on Orson's wives. Adrienne White: Oh, wow. Richard W. Sadler: And this is her third go around. Open it up and look at it because you'll see how involved her research is. 34 Heber C. Kimball (1801-1868) was an early leader in the LDS Church. He served as one of the original members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and as first counselor to Brigham Young from 1847 until his death. 35 Orson Hyde (1805-1878) was an early leader in the LDS Church. He served as one of the original members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. He served as president of the Quorum from 1847 to 1875. 36 Franklin D. Richards (1821-1899) was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles from 1849 until his death. 37 John Smith (1781-1854) was the younger brother of Joseph Smith, Sr. and the uncle of Joseph Smith, Jr. He served as a member of the first presiding high council in Kirtland, Ohio as an assistant counselor in the First Presidency under Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. 38 Charles C. Rich (1809-1883) was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles from 1849 until his death. 39 Samuel W. Richards (1824-1909) was a member of the Utah Territorial legislature from 1855 to 1859. 13 Adrienne White: Absolutely. Wow. Richard W. Sadler: And this is her research on Daniel's wife. There are ten of them. And thus, her research broadens my research, so it becomes our research much more. Adrienne White: That's really special. Thank you for sharing. Wow… When did she do this? Richard W. Sadler: Just in the past four years. Adrienne White: This is really, really incredible. Richard W. Sadler: Well, she became so skilled at doing it. And she said, “We've got to bring those women out better – out of the shadows.” And she found a young woman who had been born to Hiram Spencer and his second wife in Nauvoo – a young woman named Frances. Claudia called her Fannie, who in some way had difficulty with the church in Salt Lake and was excommunicated at about age 12. Now… How and why does that happen? We don't know for sure. But she became a prostitute in Montana. We began to do some more research and Claudia said, “How are we going to find stuff on prostitution in Montana?” I said, “Well, I have two or three books on prostitution.” She says, “You do?” I said, “Yes, I do.” And in the first book I pulled… There was Fannie. She was a quite prominent madam in Helena and was very involved. So, we were able to write more of her history and what went on. Adrienne White: Wow. I'm just so grateful that I'm getting to sit and talk with you. This has just been a wealth of knowledge, but I also feel more deeply connected to you and your research and your writing and your wife. I'm really grateful for your sharing… As we talk about your publications and your research, out of everything that you've edited or written or published, which ones stand out to you as the ones that you're the most proud of or that you feel have had the largest impact? Richard W. Sadler: I got a lot of oral history with a book on water development on the Weber River.40 People were saying, as I was doing this oral history in the 1970s… “Why is water important? What's going on?” But we had the book published – Dick Roberts and I – in about 1993 or ‘94 at Utah State [University Press]. And it is really a very good history of water development. I've done a couple of other histories of Weber County and the involvement of things there.41 And finally, a history of Weber State University that has been published.42 But I really think the most significant research has been on these Spencer brothers. Currently, the manuscript is at a publisher, and I'm hoping that works. But it's significant because Claudia and I did it together. Adrienne White: Definitely. I have a really good feeling that it's going to work out with the publisher. That leads me to my next question… Do you have any other unfinished projects, 40 The Weber River Basin: Grass Roots Democracy and Water Development was written by Richard W. Sadler and Richard C. Roberts and published by Utah State University Press in 1994. 41 A History of Weber County was written by Richard W. Sadler and Richard C. Roberts and published by Weber County Commission in 1997. 42 Weber State College: A Centennial History was written by Richard W. Sadler and published by Weber State College in 1988. 14 monographs, or manuscripts that you're hoping to publish or make available to the public besides this one about the Spencer brothers? Richard W. Sadler: I'm working on two or three things, but nothing nearly as intense and as involved as that. Adrienne White: Okay. What are the topics of those other projects? Richard W. Sadler: Well, I'm writing a history of Claudia and me. Adrienne White: Is that something that you're going to make mostly available just to your family? Richard W. Sadler: Yeah. Adrienne White: Okay. Are you going to make that available maybe in the special collections at Weber State? Richard W. Sadler: That could be. Adrienne White: I would appreciate that. Richard W. Sadler: I've got all of the Spencer brothers research – several boxfuls that I need to determine where that goes. Because, if I don't do that, my kids won't know where to put it. And I had originally thought, maybe at the University of Utah, but I've been thinking of Weber, too. Adrienne White: That's great. Either way, the special collections access is great. Richard W. Sadler: Yes, it is. Adrienne White: So, you've mentioned several people throughout this interview. You've mentioned Eugene England, Leonard Arrington, Juanita Brooks, and a whole host of other people. Aside from the people that you've already mentioned, have there been other people who have influenced you and mentored you throughout your career – aside from Claudia and these other people that have already been mentioned? Richard W. Sadler: You know, you have people who… You’ve read their books and you talk with them – like Richard Bushman. His book, Rough Stone Rolling, had such a great impact on people, and because I was the dean, I had the money to bring him in a couple of times, and the space would always be filled with people wanting to learn about what was going on. It's interesting that there will always be a tension between what should be told and what happened. And yet, you see that tension kind of ebbing and flowing. I see that with Mike Quinn's writings – him wanting to publish what he knew about people. I see people 15 who wanted to reach across the aisle and recognize women more like Linda Newell43 and Val Avery44 in writing about Emma45 where she was kind of put on the backburner because she did not come west with Brigham Young, and the conflict that Brigham Young had with people. I'm really influenced by all sorts of people. In fact, I don't remember the name exactly of the book that I just read about three weeks ago about Jerald and Sandra Tanner. Adrienne White: It’s called Lighthouse.46 Richard W. Sadler: I visited with them numerous times and bought books from them numerous times. I thought the book – by a guy named [Ronald V.] Huggins – was really well done. It was sympathetic, yet quite honest in terms of what goes on. Yeah, all of these people have influenced me a great deal. I think Leonard Arrington47 is most honest in his diary. He couldn't afford to be nearly that honest in person, in terms of what went on. I think Gordon Hinckley48 came to realize that we needed to be more frank about the Mountain Meadows. Rick Turley49 has done that with some assistance from his other writers. I think another person who has been fairly honest and had some difficulty with it is Marlin Jensen.50 Marlin and I were elected to the school board at the same time and spent a couple of years together, becoming very close. Then, he was called to be in the Seventy and to be Church Historian. I think The Joseph Smith Papers51 have made a big step forward in putting things out because there is no way that secrets could be kept with the internet. And so, The Joseph Smith Papers have kind of put down some people saying the Mormon Church is hiding things. But the Mormon Church is an institution and will want to keep some things secret and that creates tension between historians and other people. Adrienne White: Thank you for sharing. I know you've talked about Leonard Arrington and Juanita Brooks. How did the previous generation of Mormon historians who came before you impact your career? 43 Linda King Newell (1941-2023) was an LDS historian and author. She co-authored the 1984 book, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, with Valeen Tippetts Avery. She was the editor of Dialogue with her husband from 1982 to 1986. She was president of the MHA from 1996 to 1997. 44 Valeen Tippetts Avery (1936-2006) was a Western American and LDS historian and biographer. She co-authored the 1984 book, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, with Linda King Newell. She was president of the MHA from 1987 to 1988. 45 Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, Prophet's Wife, "Elect Lady," Polygamy's Foe is a biography of Emma Hale Smith, wife of Joseph Smith, Jr. It was written by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery and published by Doubleday & Company, Inc. in 1984. 46 Lighthouse: Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Despised and Beloved Critics of Mormonism was written by Ronald V. Huggins and published by Signature Books in 2022. 47 Leonard J. Arrington (1917-1999) was the founder of the Mormon History Association and has been called the “Dean of Mormon History.” He was the first non-General Authority Church Historian for the LDS Church from 1972 to 1982. He was the director of the Joseph Fielding Smith Institute for Church History from 1982 to 1986. 48 Gordon B. Hinckley (1910-2008) served as the fifteenth president of the LDS Church from 1995 until his death. 49 Ronald Davis Bitton (1930-2007) was a professor of history at the University of Utah and assistant church historian for the LDS Church, working with Leonard J. Arrington. He was a charter member of the MHA and served as president of the MHA from 1971 to 1972. 50 Marlin K. Jensen (1942–) is an attorney who has been a General Authority in the LDS Church since 1989. He served as the official Church Historian and Recorder from 2005 to 2012. 51 The Joseph Smith Papers project began in 2001 and focuses on gathering and publishing all extant materials related to the LDS Church’s founder, Joseph Smith. The first publication came out in 2008.12 BYU Studies Quarterly is a multidisciplinary academic journal that was first printed in 1959 and is published by Brigham Young University. 16 Richard W. Sadler: Well, I'm in the middle of a book on Dale Morgan.52 Adrienne White: The one published by the University of Utah Press? Richard W. Sadler: Yes,53 and I think it's written very well. I sometimes need to step away to think about it. You have Dale Morgan, and Fawn Brodie, and Juanita Brooks fit into that group. And Wallace Stegner,54 other than Juanita, was a Mormon historian who stands out as wanting to tell it like it was or is. You've got people like Joseph Fielding Smith who want to tell it like he wants it to be known. I told you about my involvement with Will Lund in 1964 and ‘65, when I was doing research in the Church Historian's Office and it was pretty much an open archive depending on what you were doing and what was happening. And there was a guy there doing research who was a very faithful Latter-day Saint named James Clark. James Clark was doing research on a five-volume book he was doing called Messages of the First Presidency.55 Documents can become very important to historians if they are done accurately. I would watch… as I am this young guy who deals with Juanita Brooks and as I'm doing research… My research is not threatening to anybody, but Joseph Fielding Smith comes by and jokes with people. My gosh… I thought he was joking with people. Not much with me, but with other people and with James Clark. But, one day, he must have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed because Clark was looking at some material – I don't know what it was. Joseph Fielding Smith would come up, look over your shoulder, see what you were doing, see what was happening. And he said, “How did you get that? What did you do?” And he slammed it shut and took it. And I have used Clark's books and writings and have known that they have been a great help – somewhat doctored a little bit. They're not going to be quite as forthcoming as Richard Bushman or Tom Alexander would be in what happens. But, I thought, “This is too bad.” And, a few days later, Clark was back and he was doing research. Joseph Fielding Smith came by and things were okay again, but I just knew at the time about the real tension, including, “I'm in control of this stuff and I'm just going to let it out a bit at a time rather than ‘Here's everything we know about Joseph Smith.’” You can buy the books. You can have the books. That's all that we really know about Joseph Smith. And thus, there is that tension. I know that that continues with all sorts of people wanting to write quite honest, but also faithful history. As well as, “What are you exposing? What are you doing? What's happening?” And thus, Gerald and Sandra come in and say, “Well, we'll print the temple ceremony. We'll print other kinds of things. We'll show the Book of Mormon has been altered. We'll show all sorts of things.” Adrienne White: Yeah, it's so interesting that through this oral history project, I am able to talk to historians of your generation because I come from a generation where there's a lot of limitations to what I have access to in my research. Richard W. Sadler: Is that right? 52 Lowell Dale Morgan (1914-1971) was a historian, researcher, biographer, editor, and critic. He specialized in Utah history and Mormon history. 53 Dale L. Morgan: Mormon and Western Histories in Transition was written by Richard L. Saunders and published by the University of Utah Press in 2023. 54 Wallace Earle Stegner (1909-1993) was a novelist, writer, environmentalist, and historian. He was often called “The Dean of Western Writers.” He won the Pulitzer Prize in 1972 and the US National Book Award in 1977. 55 Messages of the First Presidency is a six-volume book written by James R. Clark and published by Bookcraft in 1965. 17 Adrienne White: Yes. Richard W. Sadler: Where? At the Church History Library? Adrienne White: Yes. I think, essentially after Mark Hofmann, that a lot of limitations have stayed in place. Richard W. Sadler: I apologize. I should just tell you that Mark Hofmann was in Ogden and spoke at the LDS Institute. He was quite a secretive fellow. Everyone was taken aback by Mark Hofmann – and on a personal note, I wasn't sure I trusted him. Gerald Tanner knew he didn't trust him, but my son Peter, who worked for the Salt Lake Police Department for 22 or 23 years, says… and this is from his sources, who were Salt Lake Police… “Why did Gordon Hinckley lie to the police? Why couldn't he be honest about things?” Of course, the deaths that occurred were a tragedy. I dealt with Mac's son, Steve, who was killed. Adrienne White: Steve Christensen. Richard W. Sadler: Yes, Mac Christensen, Mr. Mac. Adrienne White: Yeah, Mr. Mac. Richard W. Sadler: He was on our board of trustees for some time. Steve's death was so devastating for him and it was such a tragic death. And part of what happened in doing this research is… I have gathered so many books and so many things on the Spencer brothers. We had most of the research here, so I had to do very little research in the Church History Library. And that's kind of like Mike Quinn having all of his research or… You're not nearly as dependent upon someone saying, “You need this kind of thing,” but there are going to be people who work in the Church History Library or elsewhere, who want to be protective of these kinds of things – dates, names, events. Adrienne White: Yeah. So, it's interesting to hear your perspective of having access to the archives before they became more limited. Richard W. Sadler: Yes. And the archives I'm talking about were in the church headquarters building on South Temple on about the third floor. They were all there and you had some access. You didn't know where everything was. In fact, I don't think they knew where everything was. And you've got people like Matt Grow today who are kind of in control of things. But again, there are some that feel like too much history can break them and damage people's testimonies instead of enhancing their testimonies with what goes on. Adrienne White: Yeah, we're going to continue… You've talked a little bit about your MHA presidency, so it sounds like you served after Richard Bushman in 1987. Richard W. Sadler: And before Val Avery. 18 Adrienne White: Okay. And your conference took place in Liverpool or Oxford or which? Richard W. Sadler: Both. Adrienne White: Both, okay. Richard W. Sadler: Oxford and Liverpool. The majority of the conference was in Oxford. The presidential address was in Liverpool. We went down to the Albert Docks and visited places there. We went to Preston. Adrienne White: Do you remember who the Tanner lecturer was? Richard W. Sadler: I wouldn't remember. Adrienne White: Or what their topic was about? Richard W. Sadler: I had nothing to do with choosing the Tanner lecturer. Adrienne White: Okay. Richard W. Sadler: But, I went to the lecture. [referring to a journal] John F. C. Harrison delivered his paper, “The Popular History of Early Victorian Britain, A Mormon Contribution.” And that was published, of course, in the Journal of Mormon History in 1988. Adrienne White: So, during your presidency, I imagine a lot of what you were dealing with were the challenges of planning your conference across seas. Aside from that, were there any other accomplishments or challenges you navigated during your presidency? Richard W. Sadler: Well, you can appreciate that this is in the midst of some turmoil with Mark Hoffman and with Michael Quinn who was going to be fired at BYU. Leonard Arrington has been moved to Provo – out of sight, out of mind – into the Joseph Fielding Smith Institute. I mean, this was just the kind of thing that was going on. And there were efforts to put together some groups… like there was a group called the B. H. Roberts Society, where we would have lectures on a monthly basis, but that kind of died. There was going to be an effort to publish 10 or 12 books on Mormon history – one of which was the first book that Richard Bushman wrote on Joseph Smith – Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism56 – and they were going to be published through Deseret Book, but the church backed away from that project. I mean, it was just kind of a shifting landscape in terms of what was going on and I think that's in part because of who some of the General Authorities were – people like Boyd Packer or Mark Petersen or Ezra Taft Benson.57 Very conservative kinds of people in this realm of things going on. There were also some people who were suspicious of having a relationship with the Reorganized [LDS] Church – the Community of Christ Church… Look what that's brought us – the [LDS] Church with its money has been 56 Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism was written by Richard L. Bushman and published in 1984 by the University of Illinois Press. 57 Ezra Taft Benson (1899-1994) was an American farmer, the fifteenth United States Secretary of Agriculture, and the thirteenth president of the LDS Church from 1985 to 1994. 19 able to really put together an important kind of thing with the Kirtland Temple58 and the Red Brick Store and other kinds of things there. Adrienne White: Do you remember which year you attended your first MHA conference? Richard W. Sadler: I can remember going to some meetings in Salt Lake for the MHA conference and I can remember Tom Alexander and Jim Allen asking me if I would like to ride with them to go to a conference in Independence. I just had too many things on my plate and told them, “I can't do that.” And I should have gone. I mean, we were having kids. But after going to Nauvoo, the next conference was in St. George. Charles Peterson, who was the president for the St. George conference, asked me to be the local arrangements chair. So, kind of banking on what we had done in Nauvoo – going by bus – we organized several buses to pick up people on the Wasatch Front and to take them to St. George. Now, a lot of people like driving to St. George, but we were going to have people speak on the buses and talk about things. Plus, we were going to visit – after St. George – Colorado City and Short Creek. That was a most enlightening time to go because I had never been before to that polygamous community. We had people get off and we talked to people. The idea was to gain more out of history by traveling and visiting with local experts, learning more than you do from just sitting at home and reading. And so, that became part of what we did in England – going on buses to Preston and other kinds of places. I found that it's not easy to manage people on buses. One day, we had arranged to go from Oxford to visit two or three places and then come back. And we had, I think, three buses. I urged the people in charge of the buses that we needed to make certain that people knew we had a time limit and knew that we were doing things. So, we went from Oxford to Bath. And that's, of course, a beautiful place. And then we went to Stonehenge and one other place – it may have been Winchester. But at Bath, we had everyone on the buses – and I think there were three of them. So, that would mean around 150 people, but one couple [didn’t show up]… We waited and we waited. This is where I kind of got a reputation. I said, “We need to go. There's a train from Bath back to Oxford.” And we went. People said, “You are a tough guy doing this.” And I said, “Well, we've got all these other people and we can't have them wait to have this happen.” So, after Nauvoo and St. George, I rarely missed an MHA convention. Adrienne White: Which year was your most recent conference? Richard W. Sadler: I haven't been for about 10 years. Part of that is because my wife got cancer, so we didn't travel much. Adrienne White: Did you know that the MHA conference in 2025 is going to be in Ogden? Are you thinking you might attend that one? Richard W. Sadler: I think that would be a good thing to do. Adrienne White: Yeah. I'm hoping to present some of my findings at that conference. So, it would be really great to have you there. 58 The LDS Church purchased the Kirtland Temple and other historic properties on March 5, 2024 for $192.5 million from the Community of Christ (formerly the RLDS Church). 20 Richard W. Sadler: Well, that would be good to know. Adrienne White: Yeah, I'll stay in touch… As you've experienced it, how would you describe the evolution of MHA and the role that MHA has played in the Mormon history community? Richard W. Sadler: It has affected, first of all, the historians. It has secondly affected the history, because people now know other people that they can have read their things. Although everyone is biased, they know that it will be read fairly. I mean, I think about Bill Russell59 – and I'm not sure if Bill's still alive. Adrienne White: He is on my list to interview. Richard W. Sadler: Bill is what you would call kind of a renegade historian – very independent. He was very good friends with Mel Smith and good friends with me. The Mormon History Association allowed people to go to venues that you wouldn't normally go to. When the first meeting was held in Kirtland, and the Reorganized [LDS] Church allowed us to meet in the temple, that was a very unusual experience. The Mormon History Association had an impact on non-scholars – people who wanted to hear the papers, who wanted to go to the places, wanted to see the things, but didn't have the in-depth knowledge of Mormon history, but probably bought all kinds of Mormon history books because of being there. I can think back to the Mormon History Association conference held in Quincy, Illinois. I can think of other kinds of places where you see people being involved. I think that it was historians who really brought about a great friendship between the Reorganized [LDS] Church, now the Community of Christ, and the Mormon Church. Adrienne White: That's great. Thank you. I have three more questions. I know we're almost at about time here. What projects do you hope will be completed in the future in the realm of Mormon history? It's okay if you don't have an answer to that. Richard W. Sadler: I'm seeing books come out on all sorts of Mormon history characters from Sidney Rigdon60 to William Bickerton.61 I think there's going to continue to be an ongoing interest, though, in Mormon history. An example of that is Signature Books publishing these, what I would call brief biographies of Michael Quinn by Gary Topping62 or John Widtsoe by Tom Alexander63 or the book I read on Lowell Bennion published by the 59 William Dean Russell (1938–) is a member of the RLDS/Community of Christ. He is a historian and academic who spent his career at Graceland College/University in Lamoni, IA. He served as president of the MHA from 1982 to 1983. He was interviewed for this oral history project by Adrienne White on April 4, 2024. 60 Sidney Rigdon (1793-1876) served as first and second counselor to Joseph Smith, Jr. from 1832 until Smith’s death in 1844. He served as president of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Children of Zion from 1845 to 1847. 61 William Bickerton (1815-1905) was a leader in the LDS movement after the 1844 succession crisis. In 1862, he became the founding president of the church now known as The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite), which is one of the many churches that claim to be a continuation of the church founded by Joseph Smith, Jr. founded in 1830. 62 D. Michael Quinn: Mormon Historian, 1944-2021 was written by Gary Topping and published by Signature Books in 2022. 63 John A. Widtsoe: Scientist and Theologian, 1872-1952 was written by Tom Alexander and published by Signature Books in 2023. 21 University of Illinois Press.64 There are all kinds of people who have an impact on things, and in a way, their story has not been told. I'm disappointed at the biography of Joseph F. Smith.65 I think the Taysom biography66 doesn't get at Joseph F. Smith. He’s too focused on Joseph F. Smith’s anger. I think he's not the Richard Bushman kind of author that we need for Joseph F. Smith. It's tough to write a biography of Joseph Fielding Smith or Bruce McConkie67 or Boyd Packer with their staunch conservatism, but if we live with Governor Cox and the people in the legislature, I guess we can't live with them in a very conservative kind of state. Adrienne White: As you reflect on your body of work and the research that you've done, what legacy do you hope to leave behind? Richard W. Sadler: A legacy of being a craftsman, being honest, having integrity, and helping to push back the curtain of history so that we really see people correctly and involving more women in history. When I first started at Weber State… The first year, we were a department of all men and we were all on the hiring committee. And someone said, “We have a couple of women applicants.” And someone else, whose name I won't say at this point, “Oh, we don't want a woman in this department, do we?” But, in my university life as the dean, I made a real point of hiring women. They are such great scholars and they offer such great leadership. The current dean of the college is a woman that I know very well. I did not hire her, but I helped to further her career. Adrienne White: Thank you for sharing. I think you're definitely leaving that legacy behind and that's something to be really proud of. My last question… As one of the foremost scholars in the field of Mormon history, what advice do you have for future generations of Mormon historians? Richard W. Sadler: My advice is… There are great examples of Mormon historians – from T. Edgar Lyon, to Richard Bushman, to Tom Alexander, to Mike Quinn – who have been quite engaged in research and writing and are not embarrassed by what they put out. That's what we need to look at because it takes some independence because institutional historians – church historians, those hired by Congress or whoever – will sometimes write the history that their masters want rather than what the public deserves. Adrienne White: I think that's really great advice. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for sharing your story, being very genuine, and very vulnerable. It’s been so great to get to know you and to hear about your life and your love of Claudia. It means a lot. Recording ended after 2:02:10. 64 Lowell L. Bennion: A Mormon Educator was written by George B. Handley and published by University of Illinois Press in 2023. 65 Joseph F. Smith (1838-1918) served as the sixth president of the LDS Church. He was the nephew of Joseph Smith, Jr. 66 Like a Fiery Meteor: The Life of Joseph F. Smith was written by Stephen G. Taysom and published by the University of Utah Press in 2023. 67 Bruce R. McConkie (1915-1985) was a member of the First Council of the Seventy from 1946 until his calling to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, which he served on from 1972 until his death. 22