Arnie (Arnold) Thompson Oral History Interview

This document is a transcript of an interview with Arnold Thompson, conducted by Mia Shumway on March 22, 2024, at the Brigham City Museum. Mr. Thompson, born in 1932, discusses his life in Brigham City, Utah, where he moved in the 1960s. He worked as an engineer at Thiokol, specializing in thermodynamics, and was involved in projects including the space shuttle and airbags. He recounts his strong opposition to the launch of the Challenger space shuttle due to cold weather concerns and O-ring issues, and his subsequent involvement with the Rogers Commission after the disaster.

Crossroads: Change In Rural America Change in Rural Utah TRANSCRIPTION COVER SHEET Interviewee(s): Others present: Arnold Thompson Mr. Thompson’s son Place of interview: Date of interview: Brigham City Museum March 22, 2024 Interviewer(s): Recordist: Photographer: Mia Shumway Recording equipment: Transcription equipment: NCH Express Scribe Transcription Software with Power Player foot pedal. Transcribed by/date: Susan Gross/01 April 2024 Transcript proofed by/date: Brief description of interview: Mr. Arnold Thompson has lived in Brigham City most of his adult life. He spent a good part of his career at Thiokol, as an engineer, and he worked on space shuttles, including the Challenger. He talks about the Challenger disaster, and how he was adamantly against the Challenger launching. Mr. Thompson discusses how Brigham City was and remains full of opportunities: both for good education and solid careers. References: MS: AT: ??: Mia Shumway Arnold Thompson Unknown Name (Mr. Thompson’s son) NOTE: Interjections during pauses, transitions in dialogue (such as “umm”), and false starts and stops in conversations are not included in transcribed. All additions to transcript noted with brackets. TRANSCRIPTION [00:01] MS: Okay, so today is March 22nd, 2024; I am Mia Shumway, and today I am interviewing – AT: Arnold Thompson. MS: At the Brigham City Museum, as a part of the Crossroads Project for Utah Humanities and Utah Public Radio. And you go by Arnie, you said, correct? AT: Yeah. MS: Arnie, what year were you born? AT: Nineteen-thirty-two. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 1 MS: Same as my grandma, actually [laughs]. AT: Yeah, alright. MS: Look at that! Alright, and where are you from, Arnie? AT: Price, Utah, is where I was born. MS: Yeah. AT: Moved here when I was five, to Salt Lake. MS: And where do you live now? AT: Here, in Brigham. MS: How long have you lived in Brigham? [Laughs] ??: Well you came here about 1966-67. AT: Yeah, sixties. MS: Since the sixties, wow! Yeah. So, most of your adult life spent here then? AT: Yeah, much of it. MS: Cool. What brought you up to Brigham City? AT: I’m not sure; I was teaching at the University of Utah, and I thought maybe I’d want to do something else. So, I sent an application in and actually had forgotten that I’d sent it in. And they accepted it – I was about the only person they hired that year. MS: And that was out at Promontory? AT: Um-hmm. MS: Very cool. What was your job out there? AT: I did mostly thermodynamics; the space shuttle is one of the main things, but I did a lot of other things too. ??: Structure stuff, and – AT: Yeah, structure. MS: Yeah. ??: And you remember your [inaudible] work, you did a lot of – AT: Oh, yeah. ??: Hyper[??] elastic type of – AT: Yeah. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 2 MS: Yeah, and did you work there until you retired? AT: Yes. MS: Worked there your whole time – once you got done teaching, right? AT: Well, no; I took some time off and went to Coalville – MS: Oh, yeah. AT: For a few years; two years. [02:00] MS: Coalville is a nice, little place. AT: Built milk tanks. MS: That’s what you were telling me earlier; yes, yes. Put your knowledge to good use, sounds like. AT: Yeah, yeah. Insulation, thermodynamics – MS: Yeah. AT: Worked good. MS: You’ve got to keep that milk cold. AT: Yeah. MS: [Laughs] Yeah. What was it like working out at Promontory, at – say it one more time? ??: Thiokol. MS: Thiokol, yeah [laughs]. AT: I really enjoyed it; it was challenging, always. MS: Um-hmm. AT: And very, very busy. And pretty quick I had a lot of people working for me. We were doing lots of things. And of course, the space shuttle was one of the big ones, but there were others also that I developed. [Inaudible] ??: Well, yeah – that, and he also had some patents on airbags, and you [inaudible] AT: Yeah, airbags; um-hmm. MS: Lots of different projects it sounds like. AT: Yeah, yeah. MS: Yeah. What were some of the challenging things? ??: Well, remember the – AT: Well, the space shuttle. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 3 MS: Yeah, we could talk about the Challenger [laughs]. AT: Only notes are on the space shuttle here. MS: Yeah. Yeah. AT: I don’t know how much of that – MS: We’ll get to that; that will be great. AT: Alright, okay. MS: Yes. But yeah – was the work the challenging part? Or working with other people the challenging part? Or just the problems you were working on? AT: Both, yeah; both. People I worked with were very challenging, and a lot of mathematics analysis. Thermodynamics was one of the main – MS: Um-hmm. AT: Issues. MS: And that’s a lot of math [laughs]. AT: Oh, yeah; yep. MS: It is not my area of expertise [laughs]. So, glad we have people like you. AT: I guess. MS: [Laughs] What are some of the best things about working here, in rural Utah? Because you lived in Salt Lake for a while, and then moved here; what were some of the good things about the move? [04:21] AT: Well, I love hunting here. And I really enjoy hunting of all kinds: deer, elk, and – ??: River running. AT: A lot of river running. MS: Yeah. AT: Been on almost every river in Utah and Idaho. MS: Wow, yeah. AT: Many times. MS: What’s your favorite section? If you have one? AT: Oh, what’s – ??: Yours is probably Desolation Canyon. AT: Desolation Canyon. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 4 MS: Oh, of the Colorado? ??: No, it’s on the Green. MS: Or that’s on the Green, yeah, yeah. AT: Yeah, on the Green. I ran it many, many times. MS: Yeah. ??: And you also enjoyed flying quite a bit too, didn’t you? AT: Yeah. MS: Did you fly, as a pilot? AT: I had an airplane. Oh, and I rebuilt an airplane, too. MS: [Laughs] Very, you know, easy – all in a day’s work, rebuilding an airplane, right? AT: Yeah. MS: [Laughs] AT: In fact, my daughter was listening to KSL – MS: Um-hmm? AT: And they said, “There’s a person up in Brigham City building an airplane in his garage!” And so, Kristy immediately called me and [laughing] told me that. MS: [Laughs] ??: They did a little news thing about him at that time. MS: Yeah, she didn’t realize it was her dad? [Laughs] AT: Yeah. MS: Or she did pretty quickly realize it was him? AT: Yeah. MS: [Laughs] AT: Who else? [Laughs] MS: Yeah [laughs]. That’s pretty cool. ??: And then he would fly out to work sometimes, too, wouldn’t you? AT: Yeah, out to work quite a few times. MS: Yeah, just from here, out to – AT: Yeah, and I’d land out in a field there, by the office. MS: Do you think they’d still let you do that? CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 5 AT: Yeah. MS: Yeah? ??: No, there’s not even an airport there anymore. AT: No – [Laughter] It was a very special airplane that I had rebuilt. MS: Um-hmm. AT: It was a sixth place, but it would fly at 30 miles an hour – MS: Wow. AT: Or cruise at 75 or 80. MS: That is crazy. ??: You add a 100 to that – MS: I was going to say, “30 mile an hour plane is not very fast;” 130 miles? AT: Yeah. ??: No, it’s 30, but then it would cruise at about 160, right? AT: Oh, yeah. MS: Hundred and sixty; oh, that makes more sense; okay [laughs]. AT: Yeah. MS: I don’t know a lot about airplanes, but – [06:31] AT: It was a very special airplane that – MS: Yeah, do you still have it? AT: Very unusual; no, I sold it. MS: [Laughs] Well, sometimes that’s – you need the garage space, huh? [Laughs] AT: Well, I did; I just decided to sell it, and – MS: Um-hmm. AT: Got a good price out of it, so – MS: Well, that’s about all you can ask for, right? AT: Yeah. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 6 MS: [Laughs] Yeah. What were some of the hard things about living in a rural place like Brigham City? AT: I just can’t think of anything. I bought about ten acres of property and have developed it – MS: Um-hmm? AT: Into a number of things. I’d like to show you that sometime. MS: Yeah, yeah. AT: And we’re currently building bottles that are out into space; they’re high-pressure bottles – MS: Okay. AT: Bryce is building some of those now. MS: Um-hmm; good to know [laughs]. AT: And various other manufacturers – about six or seven of them that rent from me. MS: So, still pretty busy in your retirement? [Laughs] AT: Well, I’ve kind of slowed down now. MS: [Laughs] Just barely, it sounds like. AT: Yeah; the boys are taking over. MS: Yeah. Have you seen these things – what changes have you seen in Brigham, in your lifetime here? In rural places? AT: Oh, I can’t think. ??: Well, you remember we used to own the place on Forest Street, and what happened to that? AT: Oh, yeah – they tore it down. MS: Um-hmm. ??: And what did they replace it with? AT: What’s the name of that – ??: A fire station. AT: Oh, the fire station, yeah. MS: Yeah. AT: That used to be my property. MS: What did you own there before? What was it? Just an office building? AT: Well, I – MS: Oh, it was a manufacturers, yeah, warehouse; yeah. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 7 AT: Manufacturing and storage. MS: Okay. AT: And then I owned half of the park up on Sixth North? ??: Sixth East. AT: Sixth East, rather; and I sold it eventually too. MS: And the city made it in a park? Yeah. AT: Yeah, the city bought it from me. ??: John Adams Park. MS: John Adams Park; very cool; yeah. AT: Yeah. MS: You’re also a real estate mogul, I see. [Laughs] [08:53] AT: Yeah, some of that. ??: But you have seen a lot of changes in the community, haven’t you? AT: Oh, I’ll say. MS: Um-hmm. AT: Yeah. MS: Have you seen changes – you know, I’ve talked to a few folks about the cycles of layoffs and rehiring out at Promontory – AT: Yeah. MS: Did you see some of those? AT: Yeah, I’ve been through some of them. MS: Um-hmm. AT: After I was hired, it was a down point in the system. I was teaching at the University of Utah; teaching thermodynamics. And I loved it, but I thought I’d maybe like to do something else besides teaching. So – ??: It wasn’t a cycle there from like 6-7,000 people to about 12 or 1,500. MS: They’d layoff – they’d have 6,000 or so, and then they’d layoff – AT: Yeah. MS: Down to 1,500? CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 8 AT: That’s about when I was hired. MS: At the 1,500? AT: At the low point, yeah. MS: And then you were able to not get laid off again, right? AT: Yeah, um-hmm. MS: That’s pretty good. What’s changed at the company? When did you retire from Thiokol? ??: [Whispers] Ninety-two. AT: Ninety-two? ??: Yeah. MS: Nineteen-ninety-two; that’s why your son’s here, to help out; yep [laughs]. AT: Yeah. MS: That was before I was born, but [laughs] – AT: Oh, really? MS: Yep, I’m pretty young. [Laughs] But yeah, so you worked there over 30 years? Almost 30 years? AT: Yeah, I guess so. MS: Pretty close? And then what changes did you see there in the 30 years? Or were there any? AT: The growth: the number of people just went enormous from where it was. ??: What about the analytical? Remember you used to do closed-form solutions for [??], for Pellet Grain – AT: Yeah. ??: And what did it change to after that? AT: Yeah, I just did a lot of analysis, pretty deep analysis – MS: Um-hmm? AT: Most of the world couldn’t or didn’t do. MS: [Laughs] Yeah. [11:04] AT: And – ??: Then you went to computers, didn’t you? Your Finite Element work. AT: Finite Element work. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 9 MS: Um-hmm. AT: That’s where I did the work on – MS: Yeah. AT: The space shuttle. MS: So, you went from doing a lot by hand, probably – AT: Yeah. MS: To having computers help you? AT: Yep, yep. MS: Yeah, that’s a pretty big change [laughs]. AT: Yeah. Just using a normal engineering equations – MS: Um-hmm. AT: And things like that. But then you get to the Finite Element, where you could plot out the configuration, and then put the loads on it. MS: Wow, yeah. AT: It was interesting. MS: Yeah. And so, clearly, a very memorable project was the Challenger, right? AT: Yeah. MS: So, do you want to tell me about your involvement with that? And it looks like you’ve got some notes here, so – AT: I do. ??: Just go ahead and read those. MS: Yeah, you can just read them, if you’d like. ??: Just read them, Dad; just what you’ve got on there. MS: You’re welcome to just read it if you want. AT: If you’re sure that’s okay? MS: Yeah, that is so okay. AT: Okay. At Thiokol we had met several times during the day about the cold weather, and our concern about O-rings at the launch of one of space shuttles. We thought that we were all in agreement and that Thiokol would recommend no launch. At six-thirty, however, Thiokol faxed our data and charts to Cape Kennedy, and to Marshall, in preparation for another meeting with Marshall and the Kennedy Space Center. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 10 Our telephone conference began about 6:45 pm, mountain time. After we presented our data and the reason for no launch during the discussion, Hardy (from Marshall) said he was appalled at the Thiokol recommendation to delay. Malloy (from Marshall) said to Thiokol a bunch of bad words. MS: [Laughs] [13:14] AT: “When are you planning to launch, next April?” Kilmaster[??] (from Thiokol) then called offline to talk to us, so the Thiokol people could talk among themselves. During the offline caucus, Roger Boisjoly and I (Arnie) could see the Thiokol managers: Mason, Wiggins, Kilmaster, and possible Bob Blunt seemed to be changing their vote in order to launch. Roger and I could see Thiokol managers seemed to be changing their mind and leaning towards going to launch. This is me talking (Arnie) – I was so concerned, I got up from my chair and went up to Mason with my data in hand. I began drawing what the problem was with the O-ring, on a sketchpad. I had previously talked to Mason on a multiple-day river running trip on the Green River, with some very technical rapids, and had also taken Mason, with other men, on an extended big game fishing trip up north, to the Northwest Territory in Canada, and I thought he would trust me. When I approached Mason, I thought I probably would be fired, but I didn’t care. The only thing that mattered was stopping the flight. To this day, 37 years ago, I still remember Mason’s stern face: he was not going to listen to me. Then Roger Boisjoly went up to the front of the meeting with photographs of O-ring blow-by from previous flights. Roger received a train [??] from management; they would not listen. Roger and I were defeated. Mason, Wiggin, Kilmaster and [??] continued discussion among themselves. Mason took the vote of only the four managers and they were determined to launch. After that, Thiokol back online, and recommended the launch, against strenuous efforts of engineer Roger, and myself, to stop the launch. [16:02] MS: How did it feel watching that? Because you probably got to watch that on TV? AT: Yeah. ??: He wouldn’t go watch the launch, would you dad? AT: No, I wouldn’t go watch the launch. But I remember the picture, the photograph of it in space, where smoke started coming out of the O-ring joint. MS: Um-hmm? AT: And it was just a matter of seconds after that, when it blew up. MS: Yeah; had to just be devastating to know you knew that was faulty, and – AT: Yep. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 11 MS: And so, part of it was the weather, right? The weather was part of – because it was cold, you were saying at the beginning? AT: Yeah, it was cold. And all around the launch pad was ice. MS: Oh, yeah. AT: And so, I knew it was cold, and I knew the O-ring couldn’t handle it. It opens up, and normally the O-ring will follow it; but because of resiliency, and the temperature, it slows – and so, it actually leaves [??] surface. And then you’ve got several thousands [??] going by, until it’s gone. MS: It builds up pressure, right? ??: You create flow, is what you do. MS: Yeah. AT: Yeah, the flow. ??: And that does erosion. MS: Oh, that makes sense. AT: All the gases. ??: Melts the metal. MS: Yeah [laughs]. And you don’t want any melted anything [laughs] – AT: Nope. MS: On a space shuttle. Well yeah, how did work Thiokol go after that? Did you just keep business as usual? Or did you have lots of debrief meetings? AT: I’m not sure – I was just busy rebuilding, and – MS: Yeah. AT: Getting ready to fly again. ??: Remember you were with the Presidential Commission – Neil Armstrong, Chuck Yeager – AT: Oh, yeah; yeah. ??: The Rogers Commission. AT: Yeah, people from all over the United States. ??: You were at Marshall for several months. AT: Yeah, I was. ??: With the Commission. MS: You were a marshal, yeah? ??: Marshall Space Center. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 12 MS: Marshall Space Center, yes; okay [laughs]. [18:07] Yeah, and so you worked with some pretty high up space folks? AT: Yeah. Yeah, I worked with the main people back there. MS: Rogers Commission, right? ??: Yes, yeah; that was assigned by Ronald Reagan. MS: Reagan – yeah, I was trying to do the [laughs] – ??: Yeah. MS: Which president timeline that was. ??: Yeah. AT: Yeah. MS: Yeah, how did that – especially that disaster – did it affect the community around here? You know, it affected the country a bit, to see that; but did it have a particular impact here? AT: I don’t know, I was too busy rebuilding to pay much attention to anything. ??: It was pretty tough, and it was very tough on you, I know that. AT: Yeah. And then I bought about ten acres of property, developing it too. ??: But it was just – I guess the question would be how did you feel after that? Because there was still a lot of pressure about opposing launch, and you weren’t in concert with everybody agreeing to fly, right? AT: Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty tough. But there are also some good people. And I had some great people working for me that did a beautiful, beautiful work. MS: Um-hmm. ??: You might want to ask him why did he stay on that long? MS: Yeah. Yeah, because that happened, ‘80s was when? ??: Eighty-six. MS: Eighty-six, yeah. ??: January, ’86. MS: Yeah, so you – yeah, you stayed on at Thiokol six more years after that then? So, what made you stay? AT: I don’t know. MS: [Laughs] CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 13 AT: I just enjoyed the work. ??: Well I remember you were going to stay there until you had a successful launch. AT: Oh, yeah. [20:12] ??: Because you – MS: Um-hmm. [Laughs] ??: You were on the joint redesign; in fact, that was the organization you were managing, Dad. AT: Yeah. ??: And you wanted to stay until you had a successful launch. MS: So, then did you get a successful launch? AT: Yep. MS: And what one would that have been? What shuttle was that? AT: I don’t know – ??: Oh, would that have been – I don’t know which shuttle it was – MS: Or if it was – ??: It was back – yeah, I don’t remember that either. We’d have to look at the launch manifest. MS: Yeah, my space knowledge is very limited [laughs]. ??: It would have been the RSRM – do you remember the RSRM? AT: Yeah, I do. ??: Yeah, redesigned. But his group was tasked with redesigning the metal joint. MS: Yeah, so kind of got some closure once you got to see – AT: Yeah. MS: A successful launch – AT: Yes. MS: That you worked on? AT: Um-hmm, yeah. MS: Yeah. Was it – obviously, you’re also a military contractor [laughs] out there at Thiokol – AT: Yeah. MS: Did that present any special challenges or special opportunities? CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 14 AT: Yeah, we were the military – ??: You did some work on the Minuteman. MS: Um-hmm? AT: Yeah, I did a lot of work on Minuteman; and yeah, to this day it’s still operational, it’s still defending your country. MS: Yeah, so thank you. I think I trust your math [laughs]. So, what would you say to someone that is considering applying and working at Thiokol, at Promontory? AT: If they’re technically involved, I think it would be just fine. MS: Um-hmm? AT: I think they would find a lot of satisfaction in working there. But it’s quite technical and a lot of areas need to be involved. Most people don’t know anything about viscoelasticity, responses and things like that. And I think nowadays, to find that element, which is the mechanical analysis, is fairly well-known around the country. At this time, it was quite new. [22:46] MS: Yeah. So, it sounds like as a scientist, you did a lot of pioneering work? AT: I would say some, yeah. MS: [Laughs] From again, what little space knowledge I have [laughs]. AT: Yep. MS: And physics and thermodynamics; yeah. It’s pretty unique to have something so technical, and all this manufacturing in such a rural community. Was there any interesting dynamics between having this very, you know, almost – yeah, intellectual and scientific entity right here, right next to the farms? ??: Yeah, I remember some of your best friends were the farmers, like Lloyd Hubbard – AT: Yeah. ??: And those fellows out there – MS: Um-hmm? ??: The farmers were – AT: Helped them develop into good engineers. MS: Um-hmm? ??: But you had some friends that were very good friends, that were farmers out there in the rural areas – CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 15 AT: Yeah, yeah. ??: Didn’t you? MS: That didn’t work at Thiokol? ??: Right. MS: Yeah. AT: Yeah, that too. MS: And were you all able to get along? [Laughs] AT: Yeah. MS: Back in the day, even though you worked pretty different jobs? AT: Yeah, and I think everybody worked real hard to get flying; and I was one of the ones directing the direction that was going. MS: Yeah; what was your position title? Did you have a title for your job? Maybe your son remembers? ??: Yeah, you were manager of structures. AT: Yeah, I guess manager of structures. MS: Manager of structures? AT: Is the best I can do. ??: I think metal structures. MS: Yeah [laughs]. ??: Yep. MS: Because there were a lot of structures going on [laughs]. ??: Yeah, well that, and versus composite structures. MS: Um-hmm; I think – ??: Say Saresh was tied into the composite – MS: Yes, yes. Yeah, do you think you would ever move away from Brigham City? Or you think you’ll stay here the rest of your life? AT: Yeah, I think so. MS: Did you ever have the desire to move away once you got here? [24:49] CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 16 AT: No, I don’t think so. I think I’ve liked Brigham City, and I got this industry here, and ten acres of all kind of buildings, and people doing all kind of interesting things. MS: Yeah. Did you see a lot of opportunity here, especially for your kids? AT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Bryce and my one son is in charge of building these high-pressure bottles. And of course, Bryce works with it a lot too. ??: Yeah, in fact you’ve kind of encouraged everybody – my sister has a PhD, and all the brothers, you know, we – MS: Um-hmm? ??: Have engineering degrees and master’s degrees; and then another brother has a B.S. and a master. So, he has certainly encouraged education. MS: Yeah. Because that’s one thing, sometimes in such a small community, those education opportunities aren’t there, right? You have to go far away; did it feel like you had to go far away? You were here before the freeway was finished, right? [Laughs] AT: Yeah. I did take some classes in Ogden, and they were interesting. MS: Um-hmm. And especially for your kids? AT: Yeah. MS: Did you feel like the high school prepared them for these degrees? AT: Yeah, I think they did pretty good, don’t you think? ??: Yeah, I think it was just fine. MS: Yeah. AT: Yeah. MS: Which, you know, not a lot of people think that rural places are rigorous academically, right? AT: Yeah; and two of my boys got advanced engineering degrees, and – MS: Yeah. AT: Well one boy got an advanced business – ??: Yeah. In fact, I think you look historically – back in the ‘60s, Brigham City had more PhDs per capita than any place in the country. MS: I believe that. ??: Because it was tied into the rocket[??] business. MS: Yeah. It makes for a unique community, right – when you’ve got a large concentration of PhDs, is what your son was saying? AT: Yeah, yeah. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 17 [26:56] A lot of smart people. MS: Yeah. Was there anything surprising when you moved out here from – well, you started at a pretty small, out in Price; then lived in Salt Lake City – AT: Yeah. MS: And then here; anything surprising about coming back to a rural community? AT: No; I think that it was kind of interesting. I was teaching at the university (Thermodynamics, of course), and I loved it, I just loved it. And I loved the students, and I thought they were doing quite well. But then for some reason I’d sent this application in – MS: [Laughs] AT: And they accepted it. And I thought, “Well, maybe I ought to try something a little different.” MS: And it seemed to work out for you. [Laughs] AT: Yeah, it seemed to. MS: Yeah. AT: Busy, busy, busy. MS: Yeah. AT: Overtime, overtime, overtime. MS: But it sounds like the company treated you fairly well, though? AT: Yeah, they did. They did: they took good care of me. MS: Um-hmm. I’ve kind of heard that from several people that have worked there, that they felt taken care of at Thiokol [laughs]. AT: Um-hmm. MS: What do you think you would miss the most about here, in Brigham, if you ever had to move? AT: I don’t know. ??: I think the waterline from Lake Bonneville. MS: [Laughs] AT: Yeah, I love going out to Lake Bonneville. ??: Well, you remember the shoreline up along the mountains? MS: Oh, do you like the highline trail? AT: Oh, yeah. MS: The Shoreline Trail? CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 18 AT: Yeah, I love that. MS: Um-hmm; do you hike it? Or what do you do out there? AT: Yeah, just I love to go out on it and seeing it. ??: You love looking out your window at it too, though, don’t you? AT: Yeah. Many times, I’ve gone out there. I really enjoyed it. MS: Um-hmm. AT: It was interesting. MS: Yeah; is there any other parts of the landscape here that you really connect with? But yeah, the Shoreline – AT: Well I love hunting a lot. MS: Um-hmm. AT: Deer hunting; and then I hunted up in Wyoming a lot. MS: Um-hmm. AT: Elk and moose, and what else? ??: What about Locomotive Springs, do you like it out there? AT: Oh, I love Locomotive Springs. MS: Yeah, tell me – what’s Locomotive Springs? AT: It’s just really interesting – MS: Um-hmm? [29:17] AT: Have that happen out there, and all the history that went into it. It’s just great. MS: Um-hmm, and where is it at? Is it out by – ??: Out west, you go to – MS: Okay. ??: Golden Spike, and keep going west. MS: And it’s a spring? I don’t – I’m turned around in this building. But west, yeah. ??: There is a series of springs out there. MS: Very cool; and locomotive, since Promontory? ??: Yeah. MS: Like Promontory Point, right? CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 19 ??: And water stations for the locomotives. MS: That makes sense too. AT: Yeah. ??: Yeah, there’s quite [inaudible]. MS: I’ll have to go explore. Yeah, is that called the West Desert? Is that what? ??: Yeah. MS: Right? Out in the West Desert. AT: Yeah. MS: Some really neat stuff out there, huh? AT: I’ll say; yeah, I just love it. ??: You used to fly out there, and then you’d also land your airplane out there. AT: Yeah, I’ve landed a lot of places out there. MS: Land it wherever you wanted? [Laughs] AT: Special airplane – ??: Just on the mud. AT: That could land on the rough surfaces, called a “Helio Courier.” MS: Wow, yeah; that’s really cool. AT: Not many people know about it. MS: But it was that plane you built? AT: Yeah. MS: Yeah. And you put that on there, specifically? Or did you plan so you could land out – AT: Oh, yeah. MS: Places like that? That was on purpose, right? AT: Yeah, I could land almost anywhere. MS: Very cool. Yeah, are there other stories you want – you think your dad should tell here? ??: Well, let me see – we talked a lot about river running. MS: Um-hmm. ??: We’ve talked about your teaching at the university; and we talked about you were from a very rural area in Rolapp, Utah. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 20 AT: Yeah. ??: And you did take a couple of years when you went to California, to work for Aerojet. AT: Yeah. ??: And then you left Aerojet because they wanted you to work on graduate work at the University of Utah, right? AT: Yeah. MS: So, you got some of that practical experience before you got to come teach, right? AT: Yeah, yeah. MS: And then got to back to that. AT: I loved teaching, it’s really interesting watching kids develop and work. And I tried to do the best I can to teach them and – [31:25] MS: Yeah. ??: The kind of important thing that’s of interest is that a lot of us still are in the local community are close by, all of his children. MS: Yeah. He’s saying all your kids live close by, right? AT: Yep; yeah, they’ve all stayed here, in Brigham City. MS: And do you have grandkids too? AT: Oh, yeah. MS: Maybe great-grandkids? [Laughs] AT: Yeah, and greats; yeah. MS: Starting to get there maybe? [Laughs] AT: Yeah. ??: Dad, let me hear you name them all. AT: Oh. [Laughter] MS: I can’t name all my cousins, so [laughs] – [Laughter] Yeah, did you see lots of opportunity for them, if they wanted to, to stay? AT: Yeah, yeah; I think so. And good schools, and good teachers, and – CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 21 MS: Affordable housing is a lot of problem in smaller areas; is that a problem here as bad? ??: Yeah, I think it is. MS: Um-hmm. ??: It’s in the entire state – MS: Yeah. ??: It’s a real challenge. MS: Yeah. You know, where I grew up is very rural, you know, it’s a place I can’t probably afford to have a house – ??: Right, yeah. MS: Until I’m retired [laughs]. And so, but here maybe, with Promontory, you’re able to have a job that you can earn enough, right? ??: Yeah, yeah; that’s the challenge is being able to support it, yeah. MS: Um-hmm, yeah. Was it pretty easy to support a family on your income from – AT: Yeah. MS: From Thiokol? AT: I made good money. MS: Yeah. AT: A master’s degree; and we worked [??] was really challenging, but paid well, and – MS: Um-hmm. AT: So, we got along just fine. MS: And were able to – yeah, get some land, and get more ventures going off of that. AT: Yeah, we did quite a bit of traveling around, too. MS: Um-hmm? Is “we” you and your wife, and your family? AT: Yeah, yep. MS: Yeah. AT: All over the United States; been in every state in the Union, except Florida and Hawaii. MS: The tropical ones. AT: I’ve been there, but – MS: Oh. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 22 AT: I’ve driven there – MS: Yeah. AT: Driven in every state. [33:38] MS: Just flew to those other ones? [Laughs] AT: Yeah. MS: You can’t drive to Hawaii, unfortunately [laughs]. AT: Yeah. MS: Yeah; what do you see Brigham City looking like in ten more years? Like what kind of people live here? And what do you see Promontory having a big impact still in ten years? AT: I just haven’t really thought about it. MS: Yeah. ??: Well, what changes when we go down Main Street in Brigham, what changes do you see now? AT: Well the parade of course, I love the parade. ??: But then all the – isn’t there a lot of development going on – AT: Oh, all the businesses, yeah. MS: Um-hmm. ??: A lot of multi-housing units going in. AT: Yeah, oh – I can’t believe all the housing. MS: Yeah, that’s right; Brigham does have quite – AT: It’s amazing. I guess they got people to go into them? MS: Yeah. AT: Or they wouldn’t build them, would they? MS: [Laughs] Yeah, and does it still feel rural, even if – you think it can still be rural? AT: No, it just feels like a city to me. MS: Yeah. AT: Not rural any more. ??: Well, you still know a lot of people though; you go to the grocery store and you still meet a lot of your friends, don’t you Dad? AT: Yeah. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 23 ??: Or those that are still around; most of them passed away. MS: Yeah. AT: Yeah. Yeah, I’m 92, so I’ve left a lot of them. MS: Um-hmm; happens when you get old! [Laughs] Not everybody else sticks around. [Laughter] Is there anything – if you were the mayor here, what would you change if you were the mayor here? Or is there anything you’d do different? AT: I don’t – MS: Kind of fun to think about, but [laughs] – AT: Yeah. ??: Mark used to talk to you when he was on the city council for eight years, and – AT: Yeah; I loved that. MS: Um-hmm? AT: That was fun; and all the school efforts involved in that job. MS: Yeah. AT: And I was on for two sessions of the city council. ??: No, school board. AT: School board. MS: School board, yeah. AT: Yeah. And I really enjoyed that, and they were challenging. And then I ran a third time and didn’t quite make it. [35:50] MS: [Laughs] Pretty competitive probably. AT: Yeah. MS: [Laughs] AT: Yeah, it was. MS: Because everybody’s your neighbor you’re running against, right? ??: Yeah. MS: Do you still go in your neighborhood and know all your neighbors? AT: I don’t know them too well. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 24 MS: Has that changed? AT: But twice a day I go around the block. MS: Keep you spry, right? AT: Yep. MS: [Laughs] ??: In your little electric car, right? AT: Yep. MS: Oh, not walking – yeah, why would you walk? AT: I don’t think I could walk around, maybe I could. MS: Well, if you’ve got ten acres, that’s a pretty big block. AT: I don’t think so. MS: Well, this has been really great. I think we’ve hit most of the main questions they wanted us to ask. Are there any other – oh, this one: what do you think the community’s impression – like what do you think Brigham thinks of Promontory and Thiokol? Does the community see it – how do they see it, do you think? AT: Well I think it’s a large part of the people of course work out there. So, I think most people like Thiokol. I think it has a good name, at least in my point of view. MS: And like you said, it becomes a generational thing, right? AT: Yeah, yeah. ??: Yeah, because that’s something that’s interesting, because you were a recipient of what? What was the award you got, do you remember that? Your Silver Snoopy? AT: Oh, yeah: Silver Snoopy. ??: Yeah. And I was also a recipient; so, second generation Silver Snoopy. So, that’s – AT: Yeah, that was the first time that’s ever happened. MS: Well tell – yeah, what’s the Silver Snoopy? How do you get that? AT: I guess just doing my work. MS: [Laughs] Was it awarded from Thiokol? AT: Yeah, um-hmm. ??: From astronauts – they would take a little Snoopy emblem and it would go to space. MS: Oh, so it came back from the project you worked on? The astronauts that took it – AT: That was a part of it, yeah. CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 25 ??: Yeah, it’s awarded by an astronaut. MS: Very cool, yeah. And so, cool to see your son follow in your footsteps a bit, right? AT: Yep. MS: Very cool. Is there anything else about work out here, or Brigham that you want to talk about? AT: It’s amazing all the questions you’ve asked. [Laughs] MS: [Laughs] AT: I just can’t think of anything until I leave, then of course, I will. MS: Um-hmm. That’s alright. Oh, I can hear all that banging around [laughs]. Alright, well I think we can end it then, and you get out early [laughs]. AT: It’s been fascinating – MS: Yeah. AT: Talking to you; I’ve enjoyed it. Thank you. MS: It’s been wonderful to learn from you, so and thank you, as well. [End recording – 38:38] CROSSROADS: CHANGE IN RURAL AMERICA: ARNOLD THOMPSON 26