Live Audience Podcast Episode

Live interview conducted by U of U student Lexie Durfee during final presentation for History 5100 course

SPEAKERS Speaker 2 Portia Anderson, Speaker 1 Lexie Durfee, Speaker 3 Andrea Baldwin Speaker 1 00:09 And so we thought it'd be fun to ask the same questions that I asked them, but with these guys instead. So Portia, how did you get involved within your position at the U Speaker 2 00:23 Yes. Thank you for that question. For me, I have been at the University for some time. I did my graduate studies here at the University in the College of Education and studying educational leadership and policy. I'm originally from Chicago, so grad school is what brought me out here. Originally, did not like my experience in Utah overall, so I left, but then I came back two years later. So I've moved through working on Student Affairs side of the house in a university setting, and then transitioned to Academic Affairs. So I've had different experiences working in residential education, academic advising, student retention, work. Became a director of administration, was in the Division of EDI here at the University of Utah, but now I reside in the College of Architecture and Planning as an Assistant Dean for EDI and belonging. So I've kind of just moved through those experiences to kind of bring me where I'm at today. Speaker 1 01:27 Awesome. Same question to you. Andrea, how did you get involved with your position? Speaker 3 01:33 So before I came here, I was at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia, and I was kind of tired of being there. The climate was not one that I felt that I wanted to be in anymore. And so I in 2021 I applied for a position here in the School for cultural and social transformation, and I was really attracted to the school because I'd never heard of a school like this before, and actually is just one of three in the country. And I wanted to be in a place where there were people who were of like mind, people who were either queer or black or brown or immigrants, or just people who were interested, who had these identities, or were studying the impetus of trying to know and learn more about what it means to be in a marginalized or minoritized group. And so I had an interview and I got the job, and so that's how I got here. And Utah is a little challenging, but my the school of cultural and social transformation is really a great place to be. It is probably not probably it is the most diverse school on this campus, the kind of all the people with the identities that I just mentioned. So yeah, that's all I got here. Speaker 1 03:07 Awesome. I should have probably asked you guys this at the beginning, but what certainly is your role at both of your stuff. Speaker 2 03:15 So as I mentioned, I'm in the culture plan. I'm the Assistant Dean for EDI and belonging, -1- Transcribed by https://otter.ai Speaker 3 03:21 and I am in the school for cultural and social transformation in the departments of gender studies and ethnic studies, and I'm an associate professor of black Feminisms. Speaker 1 03:32 What are you guys current thoughts about your current position at the u1 Speaker 2 03:41 I don't know the state of my role. That's that's a real thing though. Um, I think that you know, you know, since this legislation, HB, 261, has come out, and other specialization that have, you know, passed into law. I know we won't know the full effects or even see, but I think it already is having negative ramifications and an impact on our community as a whole, again, in my title and a part of my roles and responsibilities is EDI, and so I kind of took the stance with my dean of just communicating that we needed to take a pause on making any, you know, Rush decisions on changing my title and talking, having those conversations about my responsibilities in our college until we knew what the guidance was coming down from UC the Utah System of Higher Education. So, like, I've just, you know, progressed and been doing the work that I was appointed to do, which is oversee, you know, our equity, diversity and inclusion initiatives within our college, for our students, staff and faculty, and just continuing to serve across the campus, as I have always been, I think for me personally, because I come from a minoritized background, that's just going to be central to my work no matter. What the legislation and guidance says. And so I think that I you know, just have to continue to urge our community to think about, how do we challenge and agitate and interrupt our culture and our environment? Because different people have different experiences. And I think particularly here in Utah, like it is, like you said, like it's challenging to live here, it's challenging to find where you belong or fit, and that's not dictated by people from marginalized backgrounds, right? And so for me, like, I'm just operating, if you know things are going to continue the way they are, I know that there are going to be shifts and changes. I serve on different university committees that have been disbanded. I have very close friends and colleagues, and I, again, came from the Division of EDI. So that does you know kind of pain my heart and spirit about what the future of our will look like to support our students on this campus, but it just kind of motivates me in a way that I'm like, willing to continue to agitate. And I say agitate because I'm not here to just listen and comply. Um, I think we do have to challenge those thoughts and figure out, right, because the law was so broad that, you know, I don't, I wouldn't want, you know, our system to come in and say, Stop, X, Y and Z, or to, you know, because it has, it's already having an impact on our community. I'm already seeing it with our students. I'm seeing it amongst colleagues across the campus, in the in the community. The community also is asking questions and inquiring about our Black Cultural Center, for example. But I'm also kind of in that, like, while I'm still moving forward, I am disappointed that there haven't been any conversations had with people that are directly impacted, so people in these types of positions and roles and communities that will be directly affected. So I have lots of thoughts, but that's kind of where I'm at. I'm I am fortunate enough that in my role, I do have our Student Success Center, so our academic advisors report to me. So my role wasn't completely even though I was appointed as our inaugural Assistant Dean for EDI like I still have some other pieces that I can still keep my position, but I'm not interested in entertaining any name changes until I know what the guidance says. Yeah, and that's what I said to my dean. -2- Transcribed by https://otter.ai Speaker 1 07:35 Follow up question to that, do you know of any like students or anything that's transferring? I've heard, just personally on my end, like people that are looking into law schools that still have di or things like that, just from around campus, I would say that Speaker 2 07:49 our Student Success Center, like I would say, a lot of our transfer students, some of our international students, are kind of questioning whether they will, you know, feel comfortable still, you know, being here and being but I you know, again, like we, we can only advise them to do what is best for them and their families and their own decisions for that. But yeah, I mean, immediately, like, as the legislative session was even going on, like we had students, like questioning, like, what does that mean? And what does that mean for their degrees, but mostly for their lived experiences here on cameramen. I mean Architecture and Planning is a historically white, you know, program and so we do, you know, draw in international students and transfer students. You know, we have a program at the Korea campus as well. But you know, students are concerned about what will this look like? Will our curriculum change? You know, the little bit of that we do that challenges, you know, colonization and and the built environment, but we, we don't know, and so that's kind of just the response that we're able to get right Speaker 1 08:54 now. Yeah, no, I appreciate your response and insight. Kind of moving on to you. Andrea, what are your current thoughts about your position? Speaker 3 09:03 Same as Porsche, lots of thoughts. I think my position here, I basically have three is divided into three categories, teaching, research and service. And right now we have a workload policy where it says that teaching is 40% research is for this is 20% and so based on that, particularly because in the school for cultural and social transformation, which in the mind of the public, whether that public be the campus or the wider public outside of Campus, is equates to dei and that's not necessarily, but we are kind of dei adjacent. And the other thing is that we also have this other bill that is not as widely publicized or talked about, which is a bill that says that, basically, I can't remember. What the title of the bill is, but it says that, basically, if your program or your department is either closed or significantly reorganized, that the university can decide that they're not going to keep you even if you have tenure. And so that, along with the DEI bill, is very concerning to me, because as a person who worked hard as hell for tenure and as a person who's already seen as dei or dei adjacent, there's a way that we can also disappear. And if we disappear or we are substantially restructured, because you hear the rhetoric that these studies, these gender studies and ethnic studies and queer studies and disability studies, these are Nazis. And so we will be the first to go, which also means that I have to be very, very concerned, because outside of this job, I have a 12 year old who needs to eat, who needs to live. And so I have a lot of thoughts. I also so me personally, like, why, how I'm kind of like thinking about how these bills will impact my life, but I've already seen these bills, in fact, impact the lives of students who are sitting in my classes. And also, before these bills were passed, how the concept of free speech and hate speech, and how it is how these definitions fall along racial lines, have shown up in my classroom, like, who gets to have free speech and whose speech is considered hate speech? You're seeing this all across campuses as -3- Transcribed by https://otter.ai students who are protesting the war in Gaza are being arrested right all across the nation, and we saw this here as students in my classroom last semester I taught it's called Gender, race and sexuality in Caribbean culture. I'm from Barbados, and I had a student who was in my class who could not show up for class weeks in a row because they were charged with protesting on campus. And how do you teach a class when your students are when their lives are being in these significant ways? I had a student, I have trans students in my class who when last semester, the young Americans for freedom decided that they were going to record my class with this, with one of my trans students in the classroom, the impact that that has, how disrupting that is, when our former leadership was saying that we had to take down our trans flags school for cultural and social transformation, this is where Queer Studies is housed. What are you talking about, right? And so how are all of these things impacting not only my life, but the lives of the students who I care about deeply? I don't know. I like Porsche. I'm it's kind of a wait and see situation, but as we wait and see, we also can't be motionless, and so I advocate very, very fiercely for the students who I care very deeply about um. And I will teach my classes as though there was no bill. I will do my research as though there was no bill. I will come to service as though there was no bill, like I've always done. And that's that's all I can do. Speaker 1 13:21 I appreciate your insight and your hard examples and the impact that's having on your students. How Porsche, how has your personal experiences shaped your role at the U Speaker 2 13:40 I would say, you know, having been a student on this campus and then working professionally on this campus to see the experiences of students and how they have to underrepresented students, and how they have to not navigate this campus. I've, you know, worked and lived through some hard times. So again, I've been here, you know, consistently since 2016 and like, we've, you know, the advocacy and the people that have come before me on this campus, just for people to simply be able to thrive. Like, that's, that's sad, but that's the history of higher education in in the United States. And so for me, it just like, got me like, want to fight harder to make continue to build on those legacies that came before me, to acknowledge them, to honor them, but to also like challenge our campus of thinking about, you know, the ways that we have been serving and supporting our students. Like we all are employed to work and serve, and, you know, have a commitment to our students, like none of us would be here, and I don't think we would accept the pay that we have if we weren't passionate about it's so like, I think for me, it's just reminding myself and reminding others any chance that I get. You know, I. Worked in housing and residential education as a staff member where, you know, before I was, you know, ending my time like where we we had to file complaints against the department. I've, you know, stood alongside students where they've had to file complaints against faculty, where they've experienced trauma in the classroom, I've said along my calls myself, I think for things to shift on this campus when we have organizations like Young Americans for freedom, that we're allowed to invite people that cause harm on our campus towards communities of our students and people. And so like to see those things be allowed, and I get it freedom of speech, but it's whose speech is protected and whose whose speech is free, is we really free? And it's never in the favor of bipoc communities or queer communities on this campus. And so for me, like seeing those experiences, having a lived experience, like, I mean, like, you can't just run, because these things exist everywhere. Like, I can't just run away from Utah, but I built a community, and I've made a commitment that these are things that I'm committed see change. I -4- Transcribed by https://otter.ai think, you know, what has given me, kind of like a pride and joy was working alongside students and faculty, Dr Paula Smith and Dr William Smith and our, you know, current undergraduate students and graduate students to advocate for the Black Cultural Center, and knowing that there's multiple people and multiple students and faculty and requests to see that happen in under a year, because we were strategic about the ways in which we were challenging the campus leadership to think about that and to actually care About the livelihood of our students. It wasn't just for a space. It was for people to try to be able to have an opportunity to thrive on this campus, just as anyone else would. And I think that when people kind of like shifted their minds towards that, then it was like, okay, there is reason, there is rationale. But it came at a time that we were all experiencing like, hate on this campus. Students were, you know, being harassed, were being abused on this campus. It was good to, like, see that happen, but like knowing our future of where that center and other centers alike will go, for me, it's pretty critical for us to have some serious conversations about that, right? And to be honest and look at the realities. Because the history of higher education is that it was built on land that wasn't even ours won, and it was built with people that aren't like us. So bipoc communities in mind at all on the backs of slaves. So it's like we have this history that we know but we don't want to reckon with, and we don't want to be honest about that. And so here in Utah, like, we have to continue to, like, remind folks of that, and for me, like, I would say that that's like, the biggest that, like, I will walk into any space and I don't care, like, I will take the risk, and I have taken risks, but it's not the responsibility of our students to be doing this work like students are here to be educated, to be able to live and, you know, further their lives, right? And so it's like, as faculty and staff and as leadership on this campus, we have think about that, because it's always been and when you look at, you know, the history of protests and of student advocacy, it's always fallen on the shoulders of students, and so like, for me, it's like I'm in this profession of higher education with a mission to disrupt that. Like we have to shift our practices, and, yes, the whole system to have to dismantle, but I'm going to do what I can in my spheres of influence and the capacities that I can 18:42 I really appreciate that Speaker 3 18:49 I have not been here as long as Porsche and so my personal experiences that contradicts and how it exists in this space come I have to go way back. I've been here less than two years, um, but I grew up in the Caribbean. I was born, raised and educated on a small Caribbean island that is constantly we have the saying that if the US needs to the Caribbean catches a cold, and so there's nothing that happened here, happens here that does not impact us and impact us negatively, right? I grew up on on this island, which I still call home, working poor. My mother was in made clean hotel rooms all her life. My father was a fisherman, and I had some really, really great black women in my life, my mother, my grandmother, aunts and mentors who are very, very integral to where I ended up today. I. Yeah, and I say that because if not for those black women, I would not be here. And I always carry that with me, because I know invariably, that the students who I meet in my classroom are coming from working poor households are coming from households that are first generation. I'm first generation. When I went to law school, I didn't know what to do. I was like, Okay, I guess I'm doing this. When I went to do my graduate degree, I didn't know what to do. And it was women like Professor Judy Barito who wanted leading Caribbean feminists, who took me under their wing, and who I credit, along with my mentor I -5- Transcribed by https://otter.ai am today. And so when students come to me and are in my classroom, or meet me some other how, or some other way, I see that as my role to be a mentor, particularly for black and brown students, queer students, students who are minor types and marginalized. And that's how I see my role. This is how I've seen my role in general, in all spaces, even when I was a practicing attorney. And I think here at Utah and here at the University of Utah that there are not many of us. We can literally count. And so I do see that. I do see my role as being that much more important. That's why I'm here. I didn't know who you were, yeah. But when shivana reached out, I was like, of course, why not? Because this person who was doing this work, this amazing work, needs to hear me, and we should be there to mentor, to support in any way that we can, right? So that's how I see my role. I'm still new to Utah, so I haven't really find my found my niche yet. But you know, students are taking the black feminisms class, the Caribbean class, all the classes, because they're really, really thirsty for another passport. Said this university was built on colonial paradigms. It is on stolen man and built on the black blacks of enslaved people. And so I wrote a whole book about how when black and brown and marginalized and minoritized students get here, that we think about this place as a place where we it's me a plain line, but it's actually that's actually a fallacy. It is really a place that is built on affect. It makes us as minoritized and marginalized people feel shitty all the time when you walk into a room as a student and you feel like you have to give an account for the entire black population. That feels shitty when room as a black woman, and because I talk with my hands, you're already seen as being aggressive. That feels shitty and how the university only reaches out to us in an effective way when it wants our money or it wants our US to enroll or be a whatever the slogan to average Junior tech, it was be a Hokie, which is a mythical word don't make no sense, but it is a very effective space, and so we we need to, as black faculty, staff leadership in this institution, recognize that our students are grappling with how they feel. And as portrait Porsche said, our students are supposed to come here and get an education. That's what they're supposed to do, but they're grappling with so much other things, and so for me, I see my role here based on my background of not being able to be here without support, as being a support to the next generation of people. Speaker 1 23:53 Well, I appreciate your answer and for being here to do the work for me, so kind of a more positive note, what are some of your goals for your current position? Portion? Speaker 2 24:14 For me, I would say, like, I mean, part of my position, but like, my next right? So I'm entering a doctoral program to study, continue studying higher education and innovation, right? And so, like, for me, like, the goal is to continue to, like, you know, increase and enhance in my knowledge of what the current landscape is in higher education, but to be then able to, at the same time apply that to my role and the work that I do here while working in the College of Architecture and Planning. And so for me, I think, like, you know, that's professionally, right? I think, like personally is, you know, to find some balance, right, to stay, you know, still connected during that time with communities. That has sustained me while I, you know, in order to have I think that I've only been able to feel like, you know, and I feel like in my community, I'm thriving, and so that is like, a thing that I plan to continue to do. But again, like people are transient, and so it's like, you can't guarantee that you'll have the same community. The community today won't be the community, um, but that has been the thing that has kept me, like, grounded in the work that I do. Um, I would also like just say that I'm, you know, plan to, you know, continue to move -6- Transcribed by https://otter.ai through and aspire like to be, probably not here at the University of Utah, I'm praying that I'm not here still, but you know that I'll move when I'm finishing my doctoral program, that I'm going to go on and find my next chapter and stage in life and continue to work in higher education as a vice president. And so that is like a personal goal that I have, and something so I will need to continue to get experiences. I'll need to continue to collaborate with students and colleagues across this campus in order, like, get get to those places, to kind of make a type of change that I want to see, and just in my college, like I want to see changes. Like I need our student body, like, I need us to be more thoughtful and intentional about our recruitment efforts, but also to, like, you know, strengthen our efforts is, you know, with our support to bipoc students, I hope that, like, I'm not still here at the University of Utah, and we're still talking about the black student population being less than 2% that's been the history since I even the people that came, probably Paul and William Smith, have seen it like be at that same percentage. So it's like, you know, we have to come together as a community. Have to be listened to and heard, right? And so we have to be reached out to. And I'm thankful to the opportunities of the black faculty and staff that it has afforded me, not only to be a member, but to serve in leadership. And so I hope that that commit community still exists for people that come after us and to also sustain us, to be able to still be I'm just hoping to find a better balance, so that I'm not only looking at focus on my career, like I have to focus on myself and what I want personally for myself as well, and I hope to not have to be here. You know, I feel like, you know, the chapter will end once. I feel like I've accomplished all and I feel like this doctoral program is probably one of the last things. And then I'm hoping, I'm saying, See you later. Speaker 3 27:40 I think similar to Portia, I actually found this to be a really hard question, because as an academic, we have this push or this on to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing, and I have no real desire for the next thing right now, like so to say that I have a career goal next, or what is my next goal for my career I I think it is actually kind of liberating to not have one Um, or to have to think about it like my son is 12, and my focus is on not only keeping him alive, but in bringing out all of that black boy joy that I know is in there. And it me if that means that, not if it means if that's not, that's not what I want to say. I want to say that. And that means that being the best mom that I can be to this 12 year old, that is my goal right now, because he has had to go through so many sacrifices for me to get to this point, and I'm, I'm not willing to do that anymore. When we moved to Utah, he was 10, and he'd already moved five times. I that's so the career anymore. It is this little boy. Speaker 1 29:21 Yeah, so Well, I appreciate both your guys's answers. What is something you're proud of that you've accomplished through your role at the U just any that's a hard Speaker 2 29:38 question. Maybe, I think question. I mean, I did say, like, one thing, right? Like, was it was really, like, I was happy for us to accomplish and get the Black Cultural Center. It was something that we were told couldn't happen. It was something told that previous folks were told shouldn't happen. But I also find, like. Pride and joy of just, you know, making it another day, each day, like on this campus, in spite of, right, and so, in spite of all the things that we have to experience as bipoc Folks, as black women on this campus, like, it's not easy to be here, but to be here and to be successful. Because for me, I just feel like, no matter what we're doing, what is going to be successful, no matter what barriers, because, -7- Transcribed by https://otter.ai you know, we we're socialized to like, you know, know how to get past those challenges. And so for me, like, everything is always in spite of so I'm happy to be in spaces or be invited in spaces where people, like didn't expect or anticipate that I would be or to be on this campus for as long as I have. So just smile and I'm happy to be here, because there are some folks that probably don't want me to be or didn't want me to be on this campus. So Speaker 3 30:51 absolutely, like I said, I've been here less than two years, so I don't have as many big accomplishments, but I think the thing I'm most proud of right now is something that is actually in progress. This year, I started a black feminist eco lab in the school for cultural and social transformation, and the purpose of the lab is basically to shift the conversation about the ways in which we talk about blackness as being tethered to death and blackness as being tethered to trauma and oppression. Of course, all of this is true, but I wanted to shift the conversation with the black feminist eco lab to talk about black aliveness, and how do we start to think about blackness beyond the oppression that we feel because and not resilience, because I really hate the term resilience, Like, how can we think about black thriving black people, in spite of all the things that we face, how we create life and we live differently every day, small, everyday ways, and in just huge, extraord, extraordinary ways. And so right now, the black feminist eco lab is me a grad student and a website and a Google Doc, but we do have a website, and we are bringing three, I think we have 30 now, 30 folks to campus for our first Workshop in June, and we I begged my way to some money where we could fund our external participants, buy their tickets and pay for the accommodations. And that was really important to me, because we're not able to support people to be in these rooms, is that we have the same voices in the rooms all the time, and I wanted to have a collective of not only black academics, but also scholars, activists, advocates, policymakers, and most, most importantly for me, artists. So for instance, we have a person from Florida and like, What can a person who plays the drums for a living, tell us about being alive as a black person, and it's called the Black Feminist Ecolab, because we are also learning from our environment and how our environment because when our environment, in this rapid time, climate change and the Anthropocene dies, we are going to be the first people to go with it. And you can literally see it in the ear here in Utah. I mean, the pollution is in the ear, and the pollution is concentrated in the places that black and brown people live. And so how can we think about not only saving the planet that is really team so it has been able to thrive and stay alive despite the ways we have been abusing it for centuries. How can, how can we use kind of that model to also think about Black Alumni? So that is what I'm doing. It is in progress, but I'm super proud of my spreadsheets and my Google Doc and getting funding to bring people here. Speaker 1 34:19 So appreciate both your answers again, and then just the final question is, what do you see the role of the archives, slash special collections for your position? Speaker 2 34:34 I mean, I'm actually really happy that this, you know, initiative exists, because I think it's the, you know, it's not the first right, but it's a time right that we're kind of going back into. And like we have a resource, we have the archives to go to to learn about what's happened. And I think that you all by participating in this project, this initiative, has been able to uncover some of the history that even folks that have been -8- Transcribed by https://otter.ai on this campus may have. Own orally, right? But it's documented somewhere, right? And I think that that's the important thing, especially in the black community, is that, you know, a lot of our you know, history and the passing down is oral. And so while as much as that is important, like, we still need things documented to know and to be able to go back to so for me and my role, right? Like, I mean, one like, if our goal in the College of Architecture and Planning, right, is to increase our, you know, representation of our, you know, faculty and staff, right? Like, at least we have records, or we'd be able to go to the archives to find out, like, what, what does that look like? I think we know the research and literature, like what the literature says about our fields of Architecture and Planning, but that is so central to like the built environment in general, and like us just existing as people at one we would want to kind of be more informed. And I think we do a lot of work in like, on the reservations and kind of finding about like, finding out and we know like, and we have some faculty that are dedicated to like native land and what that looks like, and like the built environment around that and systems. But I think even still, like knowing that there is an article to refer our college to that space, and I think it then might inspire more people right to document more history of other communities on this campus as well. We can't say it doesn't exist if we you know, we didn't know. But the first thing is knowing, but the second thing is an acting once you know. And so being able to even just share this amongst our students and people. But I'm just so inspired that, like, this initiative has come up, and like the work of Siobhan on working with and dedicated students like yourself, like taking this on, like, it's not a requirement, but it's something that you wanted to give your time and energy to, and it's research, and it matters, and it's important, and it's adding to and especially if we want to say, like, we're research institution, like, about this type of research that's coming in, into the archives as well, so I hope that it's shared out with more folks as well, so that they can kind of learn about, you know, different experiences of books on campus. Thank you. Speaker 3 37:07 The Archives is very important to my work as a scholar, researcher. I have spent a lot of times in a lot of time in the archives, but I have a, I have a beef with the archives. As a black feminist, we learn very quickly that the archives, according to, for instance, one of my one of my favorite black feminists, Saidiya Hartmann, is nothing but an encounter ribbon counter power, meaning that what you find about black people in the archives is usually somebody's imagination about black people, right? What you also find in the archives about black people? It is this violence that happens where people meet mathematics, for instance. So if you go in the archives and you look for, for, I don't know, look for your for you're looking through your lineage, and you have to go through the archives and and black people show up as as a number, or black people show up in a ledger next to your horse or cattle or furniture, no names, or if there are names, you are being quantified. You are being math. You're appearing mathematically. The archives. There are no records of black women having survived about people across the Atlantic being brought from their homes in Africa, somewhere on the continent, to the United States. There are no records of their voice. There are so many records, though, of black people showing up in the archives having crossed the Atlantic as ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto, no, names, feelings, not being counted as human beings. And so for me, it is hard to be in the archives. You the work that I do, it is hard to be in the archives when I'm looking for a person, a human being, and what is showing up for me, doesn't look like a person or a human being, that this was a person or human being, or when, when they show up, it is because of a case that somebody else is bringing for their cargo, which is black people. And so it is really hard for me to be in the archives. I do see archiving and -9- Transcribed by https://otter.ai a different way of arc and is very important, like what you are doing is extremely important, because otherwise this trend of archiving black people as though they are not human or. As though they are invisible without their own words, continues that trend of violence. And so I'm really appreciative of this particular project, because it means that if my son, for instance, wants to go back and I. - 10 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai