Alexander, Thomas G., St. Paul, MN: an interview by Greg Smoak, 20 October 2016

Transcript (16 pages) of an interview by Greg Smoak with Thomas G. Alexander on October 20, 2016, in Saint Paul, Minnesota.

ALEXANDER, THOMAS G. St. Paul, MN An Interview Gregory by E. Smoak 20 October 2016 EVERETT L. COOLEY COLLECTION Western History Association Oral History Project U-3398 American West Center and J. Willard Marriott Library Special Collections Department University of Utah Salt Lake City, Utah THIS IS AN INTERVIEW WITH THOMAS G. ALEXANDER ON OCTOBER 20, 2016. THE INTERVIEWER IS GREGORY E. SMOAK. THIS IS THE WESTERN HISTORY ASSOCIATION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT, No. U-3398. GES: Good Greg Smoak, afternoon, it is Thursday, and I'm at the annual Paul, Minnesota, and it's my October meeting of the to have you with GES: Before we like to ask you to us G. in st. Alexander, and former director of the Brigham Young, and for years the History Association, TGA: Thank you History Association Brigham Young University Charles Redd Center for Western Studies at So, good Western pleasure today to have with me Thomas Professor Emeritus of History at the Western 20th, two thousand sixteen. My name is longtime member of and parliamentarian of the organization. today. Greg. get to your involvement with the Western History Association, I would give us a little biography on yourself, on your path to becoming a historian, and ultimately a Western historian. TGA: Well, I started out faculty at Weber an State associate of science actually in engineering. My father was University, degree Christ of Latter-day Saints in in and he thought I ought to be engineering. of engineering. I'd decided that I wanted to interested in history. When I came back, a I was a fairly decent relationship professor there. [Della ?], and he Berkeley about the Ellsworth and several others from Utah who were 1 So I've got really not very enamored I'd I went to Weber and I talked with with He'd gotten his PhD at engineering engineer. change my major to history. ?]. [Della ?] had been the advisor of the social club I belonged developed an the mission for the Church of Jesus by that time, and Germany, I served on to was same always been [Della Dayton there, and I had of course time as a history George down there. I decided to go for a 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander quarter to Weber, and I took Utah State George then, from there. Ellsworth that I have courses ever first, I and I was in Greek and Roman was bachelor's was degree a and start a far cry from I took his history, but So I I course was more He's in Utah one But I history. Western got to know of the best teachers I also took his impressed with him, really moved into I went to and history at then, the that point, program at Utah State where you could finish up your on your master's wanted to do my master's thesis that's really impressed with him. Arrington. able to work in European history. And intending to study European history. had, perhaps the best. next year, with Leonard and I classes from him in some on degree at the same time. And I decided that I the role of the federal European history. So I had been there. I finished up the master's thesis and I was judiciary in Utah. studying, then, Of course Western already beginning to history work with Leonard Arrington. GES: And what year TGA: This applied to was one was in 1960. place to GES: Pretty good TGA: Yeah, to that when you finished? 1959, 1960. Well, I really was kind of stupid, go to one though. Berkeley. And they admitted me, and because of my Berkeley. They had what were dollars started, then, working in semester. And I seminar,' and I took a course DePillis. So I became Bean, whose field was only graduate school. [chuckles] able to not have to payout of state tuition. Now, at that time there a I guess. I in scholarship was no sources fairly good California and problems history. in Western history. At that 2 time, they had seventy-five I took Clark history from friends with them. And I started was tuition at called incidental fees that amounted to about Western I Spence's Mario working with Walton no historian who was 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander specializing in Western history. They had of them, and Mario. I think that Clark was one but the scuttlebutt there Clark left after Western was used to sit me to easily, people we I had - real problems but when it Carl asked University, a a couple problem with class in colonial came Bridenbaugh wanted like him for together down there. our lunch a and I was at Berkeley, So and he I was there. regular Western historian, really blew those. questions, And Clark and I I took Bridenbaugh's passed the written questions. Fortunately Bridenbaugh left right and I year, Clark some reason. together while Bridenbaugh there. history, to the a friends with Clark since that time. He Berkeley hired to the oral exams, I for Illinois, where he [coughs] specialized in and eat Carl came probably would have stayed had lunch of years, appointees who Stampp didn't good together out by the Campanile and answers And I've been Turpie Jackson, After I'd been there for Barth, and that Kenneth of years and went to couple a mining history. introduced sources several I exams quite simply didn't know what kept jumping in when other after that year to go to Brown able to work with Charles Sellers to prepare for the exam and I was able to take it and pass it. N ow by this time I'd started defense installations in publications Historical with Leonard Quarterly I did my dissertation West during the already had Utah, I series of articles with Leonard already had about six on publications by that time, joint the defense installations. We Pacific Historical Review. Arrington published them in the Utah So when I finished my the financial activities of the Interior Department PhD, and in the mountain latter part of the nineteenth century, but when I finished my PhD I six articles University and on and the on so doing a at published. And I applied Brigham Young University. 3 for positions. I had offers at Fresno State If I had gone to Fresno I would have had to 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander become their expert in California history. That would have been Bean's in California course worked as a TA in American in the mountain GES: just it West, and And what year TGA: This history, and I'd worked so was history there. I took the at the time that I left there. really blew up in Salt Lake You TGA: In Allen, City in GES: were speech movement association with the Western I had coauthored 1963. But I marooned in an article Camp Floyd was started at interested Berkeley in the fall of '64, time, but History Association already. on Camp Floyd at the Western unable to I come. was in Utah, and that was History Association meeting just poor a graduate student at Berkeley. After I joined the That Mrn-hmm. meeting was more sort of building up before that faculty at Brigham Young in the Ted Warner and I drove down to the Western City. I [chuckles] - Berkeley. Oklahoma really that semester before I position at Brigham Young University. Things had been tour that went to a that time, and I GES : some Arrington and passed out to But I decided a in the fall of '64. I had had Leonard his T A for I'd taken Walton that you started there? in 1964. The free was as alright, was a kind of a famous History Association meeting at meeting. [consulting a conference program] sites there and the years, fall of' 64, Jim So there's running through here. a So we're list of all of the talking about, oh here, '64. TGA: Yeah, ' 64 in Oklahoma [looking at program] GES: These are City. And, all This is the order in which I'm trying to remember who ... they were, so 4 ... the president was. 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander TGA: Actually it's alphabetical, GES: Yeah, that's the order. TGA: Gene Hollon Walter van was the Tilburg Clark, and outside and coming back in, Clark was ever on and on going to president that year. developed a history. and I very close And I started walking up into the came department for at offered the GES: history at He kept kept walking giving, was a but it finally was over. same year, and Jim transferred in the same quite a bit older than I all three of us were was. But we interested in Western developed the course environmental history before four, they haven't hired anybody to teach American environmental or there in American history. And so they haven't courses. me a little bit about the about? Because it's TGA: Sure. For particularly, we were violence. He was at BYU at about the were Yeah. Well that's unfortunate. Before came on dinner, Brigham Young, I taught the Western history course, and then later I BYU, after the really nervous. history. They had had no professor teaching more, could you tell that was history department Both of them teaching speaker, and down the aisle. He wondered whether that time. And when I retired in two thousand environmental The well known for his work relationship because taught Utah history, environmental was and faculty. to the Oh, okay. and on, and Gene Hollon time. Ted had been there in the came no.it's not. finish with the talk that he Jim and Ted and I year that I - Was it Gene Hollon? who speaking on or some Richard interested in time, one we we move directly on to founding of the Charles Redd a little bit Center, how of the older Western studies centers out there. became interested, a number of us at Busan was on our faculty at that time, developing the WHA some kind of a center to 5 and he BYU, Jim and Ted eventually left, study the American West, but to 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander do publications, history to support research, development of the American West. Well, and Charlie Redd quite well. had often invited southeastern companies Utah, and as And people like intellectual matters. He interesting kind very successful a a Jr. same time, to endow to get Charlie a chair in the of Charlie's name Saints at the same approached Leonard about being positions, to hold the Redd same 1972. And Leonard needed of the Redd Center, and chair, to agree that at Utah State then, campus to was run the me because of writing articles together, and I had worked with him Davis was on year as assistant director of the Redd 6 the agreed to be fall of day-to-day operations to do that. We had had this of Utah, and Jim at BYU, to be assistant church historians. one donate Redd center, and inaugurated in the he asked observe for And University and church historian. And Leonard so Bitton, they would a time, the Church of Jesus Christ of time. The Redd center, He asked Jim Allen and Davis of the guy, father, Lemuel Hardison Redd, to be director of the somebody to be on name start the Charles Redd Center. And at Interestingly, church historian at the things. ranch down in [John Gardner -Ed.] very close to Charlie. Brigham Young University to offered the chair to him. to take both a rancher. He had investments in various Well, the university then approached Leonard Arrington Latter-day at BYU knew and talk about minute because I can't remember the able, through that close association, million dollars to the promote the well, and had done very well for himself. professor in the physics department was was together of guy. He had as a people of the to interested in the American West. He they knew that he was was an was some OC Tanner and others to get I need to stop this for he series, and in general, to have lecture long association, on a number of other faculty at the University Originally, I was only to Center, because Leonard wanted to 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander bring Dick Poll back Well, Leonard and he wanted to same from Western Illinois I went to BYU and have Dick take neighborhood together, [GES laughs] So he a and Charlie moderate back and be associated with meant, basically, was two of them had lived in the was that I was to a very conservative. Both of them Republican really didn't like him, on as became associate director. And when the and Charlie thought he was were a turncoat. he, of all things, didn't want Dick Poll and center that stay over. Annaley Redd, and Leonard explained what Charlie and do, and Charlie just about hit the ceiling. The Republicans, but Dick was come see University to was named after him. And assistant director of the Redd History Division was came Latter-day Saint History and he couldn't direct two things, so what that Center, then closed down Joseph Fielding back to direct the church in 1980, Leonard so to I by the Smith Institute for I became director of the Redd Center. GES: And then you directed the Redd Center into, what was the year that Brian Cannon took over? TGA: Well, let's years, and then Ed see. Brian wasn't the next director. Burt Wilson directed it for several Geary, and then Brian. Brian around the time that I retired from the [2003 -Ed.] came university, Brian would be able to tell you in, it was probably somewhere somewhere around two thousand four. that, but I just don't remember the year it was. GES: So you directed the center for about twenty years, or a little less than TGA: No. I directed the center from 1980 to 1992. And then in the Redd chair, so I held the Lemuel Hardison 7 1992, Redd, Jr., Professorship I was twenty? appointed in Western to 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander American 1992 till two thousand four when I retired. Now I'm Lemuel History from Hardison Redd, Jr., Professor Emeritus. [both chuckle] Alright. Well, let's return back to GES: the WHA, and your association with the organization goes nearly back to its absolute TGA: The first year that I went was meetings founding, in 1964, and I think I've been to just about all of the presented since that time. The first year that I And do you remember the title of the paper, GES: TGA: I don't remember what it was. fireworks at the annual and Rod Paul in 1978 some was meeting, held at Hot Springs, ofthe members who were in But in 1977, Arkansas, and the happened the year TGA: Well, there were take stands on a was meeting, that there was some more detail on same serve as what were some really needed was a But I ways to deal with this through the thing, And the bookstores here and get a there, for The meeting to Hot Springs, you." And kind of thing to so happen was so me '77? meeting. Well, nothing happened 8 to president that year, Turpie able to saw point out, during that that, he decided that what we that I know to serve. And he copy of Robert's Rules as by using parliamentary procedure, but when Rod he asked I went parliamentarian. happened in Portland in parliamentarian and he understood parliamentary procedure. some people that wanted the Western History Association just beside himself in the meeting. able to get the business little I got looking number of political issues that year. And the Jackson, and he a in 1966, at El Paso. subject? as soon as Rod, and he said that he didn't want the So, could you give was incoming president. around said "Rod Paul's before, and he asked if I would paper Portland, there were at was a the or and met with GES: you mentioned 1963. of Order, at the business something about said, "Go down to one of and we'll deal with it at meeting. Everything went 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander along quite smoothly, and remember which year it invited was Association, as so [pause] was. by the 9th Circuit held in Salt Lake they have, [chuckles] Court Historical And so really passed years. As you away parliamentarian again that year, rapidly. and I And then Elizabeth Jameson, who parliamentarian same the was since that time, I time was an GES: Now, organization, key figures folks like paper at their the Western Gordon Bakken over the years, I could you talk you remember, Turpie I was meeting that History couldn't serve parliamentarian. as And so Margaret Szasz asked if I would fill in do it. Gordon couldn't do it president the next year, agreed to certainly. asked if I would do that and I've served again as again. was an excellent parliamentarian. even better than legal background. a mean you have little bit some again a such a period, that you remember back from that and were are deep history with this about these of the leaders of the Jackson and others who else do you recall from that TGA: as a attorney, and he understood parliamentary procedure perhaps I do because of his Trying to ... president that year that I So for those two years Gordon served. Gordon He see know, Gordon became extremely ill with agreed to position of parliamentarian. the Society to present appointed association time, let's probably in two thousand twelve. And it met at the City. Well, that only lasted for two assume was I couldn't go and I had to tell the parliamentarian. cancer, and he It since that early meetings organization? and of the You mentioned some well known in the field at the time. Who there particular events or sessions, or talks period? Well, Leonard Arrington, of course. And I knew him quite well. of the founders of the some organization along with 9 all of the early presidents. He had been When Clark one 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander Spence That in in came was as quite early on, Tucson, about and in president, let some cases we'd have Spence always There Leonard we are some was or an that, Leonard [consults program] problems because people prize GES: attention to Western article was no with historians or comment on TGA: were Well, things prize, in Western longer the were met we'd have religious history. And so religious history there, I think that one really time is that I talked with agreed we that we from the Redd Center to endow religious history. By the time we were able to do prize early years, see they agreed to and one changed things of the beginning, that shift of the and asked if they would accept the do that. So we've since that time. sort of at the that and how you some chair of the Redd Center, I had become chair of it, and I buffs and how that has had been we really been impressed with. that I had felt for over was up repeatedly the presence of amateur and how you would happened early on was active in the Westerners 10 come the years. And I wonder if you would occurring that things that has really interested in the Western History Association, presidents when everybody flies, except that for a long time History Association money to go back to these people who committee. History Association, early and still director of the Redd Center at that time, and in Western And, probably was snow in the Association that I've money from the Redd Center to endow that a That it would approached the Western History Association board had membership chair of the drove to the Association. ought to pay more article, serve as Now I think almost would offer to the Western an to one, and Paul Prucha. One of the was Leonard, he me see. me 1968. We used to drive all the time to the Western difficulty getting through. Clark he asked and some organization, it. that the Westerners of the and assess early they were able to 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander pull in people who vocational. And so were Westerners, whose interest both organizations, then, History Association at involvement a really first. Now I think the Westerners certainly has table here. For were was not been as much as it was avocational rather than active in are promoting the Western still interested in it, but their early on. They ordinarily long time they were sponsoring a breakfast, and they gave best dissertation in Western history at the Western History Association. whether not. I don't think give a they still do that prize like that. and then I didn't was or For serve on some that years I and, with the Idaho State Historical TGA: Her husband's TGA: Oh gosh. trying to That's TGA: Anyway, she alright. We was can am I What other service that took prize, over. She ... name either right now. ... add it in later. chair of the committee for you mentioned I don't know confusing names? I just can't remember the for the best dissertation in Western Now, was for the longer. They may the breakfast any remember who it a Society. is Don Bott and I mean. prize chair of the committee that gave that I don't know what's wrong GES: GES: name I know who you GES: prize I'm Oh, Sandy Shackle? No, why GES: was they do a sponsor a number of years that gave that history. being part of committees early on, and the Arrington Prize. roles, in addition to obviously being parliamentarian for decades, what other service roles have you filled for the organization in terms of program committees and various other committee service? TGA: I've served was when the as a meeting member of program committees was held in Salt Lake City in two 11 a couple of times. The last time thousand eight. I was a member 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander of the program committee, and worked closely with the other members organization and promoting the development of the local arrangements I've served was an on the council of the Western the things that's been between buffs and we were doing somewhere around fifteen hundred I don't problems interesting about the Association is in the Association has declined. I'm not GES: of course talked about and other professional historians know specifically. or promoting the for the committee. History Association during several interesting experience, because we Association, things that in tended to sure that policy in the having. we were that not years. That only has One of the association decline, but the number of members membership what the something like that, do I think there's been a little is now. probably It's you know? uptick recently, in the last couple of years. TGA: But during the early years, Association. And I think that professional historians but GES: And so was that a was we had over three thousand members in the largely because we were lot of amateurs into the something you talked able to attract not organization as only well. about in those years that you were on the council? TGA: No. This was president, was and I served in that GES: Yeah. And TGA: Boy, something GES: I I during the time that I was membership chair, so what years you on the council? I don't remember that. I don't remember what years it can was fill in, because I have it on council and to the was. That's my vita. wondering if there were particular issues important to the Spence for several years. position were when Clark organization 12 that you remember that at that time. were 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander TGA: I just can't remember. GES: Okay. years, and And how do you so see this maybe how that has related to in the larger change organization over the changing historiography of the American the West? TGA: Well, I think that the historiography, historiography that has been the shift in somewhat critical of development in the American West, The Limerick's book I think is kind of a watershed that caused Association. I think it's everything hasn't been something that probably was sweetness and people in the organization. buffs in the relationship between been - GES: tense. There And another issue of religious West and its TGA: You like a I think it Euro-Americans was a even more I'm to point some something that was sure out that of the you can people who were necessary. Because the in the West has recognized before. talk to at great Mormon some length is that history in the American importance. know, history in spite by Latter-day one of the things of the fact that a about sizeable Saints. I think that to unfamiliar with or religious towns that disappointed specifically, that, donut. The historians would talk about because overdue, lot of conflict that often had not been and stir among buffs in the particularly and Native Americans historiography which history, was some but I think it disturbed light in the West, And that may have organization. Again, way Legacy of Conquest, Patty seem some uncomfortable with has to be played an Jan Shipps everything around but some religious history. Virginia City, 13 area was Western historians And I think that's important role in the West. as raucous as forget Mormon portion of the Rocky Mountain degree, being talked about the West are settled either disappointing, If you look at towns, even what do you find in the middle of the 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander town? A big church. And religion, I think, has played an important role in the development of the American West. And GES: the other so you mentioned Leonard people you see as Arrington and Francis Prucha. Who are some of being important figures in that religious history of the American West? TGA: Well, let me see. Don Cutter has done think of presidents but there aren't Mm-hmm. GES: Maybe TGA: David Baird presidents. one I was has, that's work in that I area. was trying to lot of them. telling then! most of them, Jim Allen has done trying to a some quite a think of who took yes, yes. Idaho Historical though, have been members who weren't bit of work in that over area. Judith Austin, that's the - Society. GES: Ah, TGA: Yes, the Idaho Historical Society. Dick Etulain has done some work in that field. And Elliott West has. GES: Ferenc Szasz? TGA: Yeah. Frank GES: a Alright. has, and his wife, Margaret Connell Szasz. And environmental little bit since you did that first history really emerged history. course at I think that's BYU, and something we should talk about I think American environmental in many ways from Western historians grappling with the environment. TGA: Yes, I think it has too. There has been heavily involved in that are a number of Western historians. Richard White area, and a number of others who of the West in connection with environmental 14 see the development history as extremely important. I mean 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander after all, people were moving into the West, unfamiliar to them. Most of them had region. They came out here, now nineteenth century, like John different generally out here. come into an environment from the Midwest, which Wesley Powell, understood that conditions And that things needed to change. in doing that because they were in building irrigation works mining. People problems that have would Very recently, that I haven't and other come things. humid were a generally were quite problems in, they'd develop mines, and we've successful communities seen that resulted in pollution that those mines some cases caused in some cases. yeah. Well, are there other that you think folks should know about the Western brought up great deal We had to learn how to And there have been the San Juan River of course, on was people in the They worked together in afterward because of the come rivers and in watersheds in GES: communitarians. that was a how do you deal with that area? Some deal with the West, with conditions here. The Mormons from generally, things History Association? TGA: Yeah. One of the things that I've Association is the camaraderie here. The know a lot of people, and always appreciated organization is with them, I've found members to be very you from them for can talk about things Association don't small they're people who've become good others in the Association. I think in this association, belonged to, in the Western that you seem so things that a lot more approachable. enough that you get to friends with me and with than others that I've You you're doing research probably ought to be looking History can on sit down and talk and get suggestions at. The members of the proprietary about the work that they're doing that it becomes 15 20 October 2016 Thomas G. Alexander difficult to find out what people are pleased with that in the Association, GES: Well, I thank you talk to you, we've been to you so doing and what much for your time. It's been great to talking about doing this being the parliamentarian at the business TGA: Thank you. Alright, out. I've been really this kind of camaraderie. afternoon. GES: they've found thanks. END OF INTERVIEW 16 for a couple meeting, finally get a chance to of years, and I look forward I assume, on Saturday