Oral history interview of Carrie Cooper, conducted by Tallie Casucci (audio and transcript)

Carrie Cooper grew up in Louisville, KY. Carrie recounts gymnastics, dance, and climbing as primary activities during her youth; including a two year stint living in Hong Kong. After high school graduation, she moved to North Carolina to attend the North Carolina School of Performing Arts and University of North Carolina at Greensboro for dance and psychology. She recounts an impactful 9 month study abroad in Sweden for psychology. Later she moved to Northern Arizona to boulder at the Priest Draw and become a professional climber. She recounts several important boulders during that time period (The Receptionist, Painted Cave, Mobius). After sending The Receptionist (V10), she moved to Salt Lake City with her husband to attend the University of Utah's Doctorate of Physical Therapy program. She became interested in pregnant and post-partum athletes while in PT school, based off her own childbearing experiences. Carrie also grew interested in rock climbing finger injuries and developed a schema for physical therapists to assess finger injuries without ultrasound imaging or a MRI. A few years after graduating from PT school, Carrie started her own business and eventually an educational website surrounding her research. In part 2, Carrie discusses memorable climbs in Little Cottonwood Canyon, such as Butt Trumpet, St. Nick, Shivers, and Sundial.

CARRIE COOPER Salt Lake City, UT An interview by Tallie Casucci September 22, 2022 and July 21, 2023 Rock Climbers Oral History Project -1- Part 1: September 22, 2022 Tallie Casucci 00:01 Good morning. It's September 22, 2022. I'm Tallie Casucci. And I'm talking with Carrie Cooper at the Marriott Library in Salt Lake City about rock climbing, and their experiences as a physical therapist. So to get started, Carrie, can you tell me a little bit about yourself and what it was like growing up? Carrie Cooper 00:19 Wow. It's a big place to start with. I grew up in Louisville, Kentucky. I was born in 1979. And I was mostly a city kid, there wasn't a ton of outdoor involvement. For me, like growing up. I always had a lot of energy. I loved playing playing was like, the thing that I was most interested in doing. And that typically involves other people. And it was always typically outside, like, climbing trees, doing flips down hills, pretending to be a Native American forming a tribe in the pipe underneath the road, who knows, it was like always something outside, playful, typically with other people. And I think my, my little sister who has cerebral palsy and is 18 months younger than me, I think my parents, I'm going to extrapolate a little bit here and in hopes of understanding their parenting. I think my parents were like, she has a lot of energy. And what are we going to do with this kid? Oh, wait, she's really physically apt. So I was, I was just kind of naturally coordinated as a child, like I would climb really tall trees. And I, you know, taught myself a front flip when I was like, six, you know, so my parents were like, naturally, let's put her in gymnastics. So I was in gymnastics, and I was good at it. I was never passionate about it. It wasn't like, the thing that I love to do. But I just did it. And I really enjoyed the other gymnasts. And it was just something fun. And I got out a lot of energy. So I could sleep at night. So yeah, Tallie Casucci 02:23 How long did you do gymnastics for? Carrie Cooper 02:26 From the age of seven and till 14, so seven years about. Tallie Casucci 02:31 Were you doing any other activities or was that the primary activity? Carrie Cooper 02:35 No, that was it. And we moved to Hong Kong when I was 10. And so I was on the Hong Kong International gymnastics team for the two years that we lived in Hong Kong. And so all of my gymnastics sisters were Chinese. And one of them spoke English. And our coach was actually English from England, because at the time, Hong Kong was under British rule, and but he had a an assistant coach, who was really the main coach, I would say, but he didn't speak English very well. And so yeah, there was a lot of trying to figure out how to communicate. And, you know, like, it's interesting when you're being coached by someone who doesn't speak the same language and you're a minority in a situation. Like the the experience of trying to communicate fear was really hard. And so a lot of that got kind of like internalized. But I think that my my love and ability to accept challenges which seem almost like I shouldn't, like, why do you want to do that? I think that that's really where, like, a lot of it is grounded in like, yeah. We'll get into talking about rock climbing at some point. -2- Tallie Casucci 04:17 Were there any other memories from that time of being in Hong Kong that really stands out to you other than not being able to communicate "I'm scared and I don't want to do this flip, twist"? Carrie Cooper 04:38 Oh, my gosh, there's so so many. I went to a fantastic school, the Hong Kong International School, 香 港国际学校, and it had kids from 80 different countries. As a part of that school, the only prerequisite was that you spoke English. And so like my best friends were from the Philippines, or some of them were from America, or, you know, all over the world. And I think being in Hong Kong, because it's an island, we did a lot of traveling. So we went to China, we went to Pakistan, and India and Nepal and all of these, like, really, at that time, they were really hard to get to places. And so I think that the idea of travel also became more normal to me, like, like going somewhere far away to be inundated by a culture in which you feel comfortable or learning something from or experiencing. That was something that I kind of grew up with. And my my dad was not in the military. We had a very affluent existence. And so the I think that also afforded a lot of opportunity that I wouldn't have had. Otherwise, like we took, yeah, we would just take random trips to like Macau Island, and China. and obviously Australia. So travel was like a really big deal. In my early growing up life. Tallie Casucci 06:29 After Hong Kong, did you move back to the state? Carrie Cooper 06:32 Yeah, we moved back to Louisville, Kentucky. Tallie Casucci 06:35 Did you continue to travel as a family? Carrie Cooper 06:38 We did. Yeah. Not as much. The thing was, is that having moved to Hong Kong, the company actually, like supported trips that we would take twice a year, so they wouldn't pay for the whole trip. But they would like help organize it and get discounts and things like that. And so we definitely traveled more while we lived abroad than we did when we moved back because basically, the company stopped subsidizing that. So but we did go on like a lot of road trips. Like I remember, we would drive eight, nine hours, like, often, like long car rides were not unusual in our household, like the shortest car ride was like three hours, and that was like every other week or something. So definitely continued that but living in Louisville, there's a lot of culture there. Actually. I know it's Kentucky and new people are like, Oh, backwoods, whatnot. But there's a ton of theater, and dance and music. And I got really into culture while I was in Louisville. And yeah, I switched to dance when I was 14. Tallie Casucci 08:00 Can you tell me a little bit about dance? -3- Carrie Cooper 08:03 Sure. I was again, it was just kind of like I'm physically, I have high aptitude. I'm not going to beat around the bush about that. Because I got, I was actually noticed in a random dance class. So I went to duPont Manual High School. And it had the Youth Performing Arts High School as part of it. So it's a magnet program with an arts, like, a secondary art school attached to it. And instead of taking PE, you could take dance. And so I took a dance class, and the dance class was taught by a former principal dancer from the Hubbard Street Ballet in Chicago. And she was like, You need to be a dancer. And I was like, Cool. I need a career change. I don't want to be a gymnast anymore. I could go with this. I was like really good at it. And I had a lot of fun with it. I got noticed by the Nutmeg Ballet company in Connecticut and got to go up to Connecticut during the summer and dance with MOMIX and Parsons Dance Company and Paul Taylor, and all of these like, really huge names at the time who were essentially like trying to find their junior dancers bring them up so that they could be the next company members. And so I kind of got like, grabbed by this company called the Parsons Dance Company during from that summer and like I spent all my summers dancing with them in Florida and all during this time of like dance, dance, dance, dance dance, I had friends who were climbers like this was like 1992, or 93. And my friend Jason Horvath, was actually like the National Sports climbing champion of America, along with Katie Brown. And this was like, wait a minute, there's competition, rock climbing. Like there's a clock. What? How do you even do that? I didn't understand it at all. We didn't even have like a climbing gym, it was a wall in a gymnasium that had like a track and a basketball court down in the center. And then in this random corner was just like a four panel climbing wall that did have ropes on it. But you could circuit it around in circles, like, get some endurance, but I would be dancing. And my friends would be like, hey, come down to the Red River Gorge, we're training at the Red. So I would go to go to rehearsal on like a Saturday morning. And then drive like three hours to the Red, go climb like three routes and then drive back. It was the Red River Gorge really hurt my skin. And I didn't realize that like that was going to be painful. It's so funny to think about that now. Because I don't even really think about my skin all that much as a climber. And I know a lot of people do. So yes this is all aside, but I continued to dance for was through college. So that's at least eight years. And with dance, there was always kind of a little bit of an echo of climbing in the background. But because I ended up like majoring in dance for college, I had a double major. But I went to Arts Conservatory, and that was very intense. So I really didn't have time to climb. Like at all, I think I climbed once in like two or three years of being in conservatory. And it wasn't until I decided to study intercultural organizational psychology in Sweden. It was a program that you could do through the Psychology Department of the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. And so I went over to Sweden to study and I read, I refound climbing there. So again, it's like this situation where enjoying the thing that I'm doing with other people, and especially with other cultures. I love that. I love the cultural aspect and the travel aspect of climbing. Tallie Casucci 13:18 So when did you first when were you first introduced to climbing? Carrie Cooper 13:24 That was like '92 or 1993? Yeah, that was when Jason I think that he was training for nationals. And I actually saw the Nationals I think, was maybe in Cincinnati, or when they were in a town that was nearby. And a bunch of us went to watch Jason compete. And it was so this spectacle was crazy, -4- because he's attached to a rope. And it was such a small venue that you were actually sitting underneath the rock climbs. And so they were climbing over us with ropes. And like when they would fall, they would kind of fall like overhead and it was just like this really intense spectacle. Yeah, I think that's where I really started then I just kind of went into the quote unquote, gym, you know, and I think this was like a transition between gymnastics and and dance that I was introduced to climbing. And so I was still really involved in competitions with gymnastics. And my parents let me go to let me travel with my high school friends to Chicago to do a bouldering competition. And I had never, this is like I was such a newbie to the sport that my friend was like, let's, we'll just, we'll put you will register you as a beginner. And I was like, great. I have no idea what I'm doing. Where do I go? And I ended up doing so well that they wouldn't let me stay in the beginner category. They put me in advanced and I got like, third. And I was so mad. I was like, but I am a beginner. This is crazy. I put up such a fuss. And the the award for winning was this poster of Lynn Hill, freeing The Nose. And I was so mad that I didn't win the poster. Like that was because it was so cool. Like this woman doing this crazy thing that like the boys couldn't do. And you know, I don't know, at the time that I cared that the boys couldn't do it. But I was really amped to see this woman like rock climbing. For some reason. I don't I don't remember what the impetus for that was. But I just thought it was so cool. I'm still bummed that I don't have that poster to this day. Tallie Casucci 16:25 What do you think what excited you about climbing when you first started? Carrie Cooper 16:35 Well, this is like 30 years ago Tallie. I have to remember. What excited me about it? I liked how it felt. I didn't necessarily. Like I think I was scared. I was scared of the routes. Like I was scared to go high. I definitely had a lot of fear that I remember. And I'm trying to think now like what kept me going back, I had so much fun with my friends. And the movement was really good. I think at the time, I didn't recognize the problem solving, of climbing, I just kind of like felt the movement of it. And that was really nice. Yeah. Secondarily, when I started back up after not really climbing very much and dancing and then studying. So this was like 1999, roughly 2000. The thing that I enjoyed about it was in Sweden, I was in this international program, and I had a lot of internationals around me, but there were no Swedes. And the language was so strange to me, I couldn't hear it. And that's not something that I had experienced much of in recent years, mostly because I want it growing up, I was inundated by Asian languages. And so I can kind of hear Asian languages, but like, Scandinavian languages were really weird. And I couldn't hear where their words started and stopped. So it was hard for me to like, say basic phrases. And it kind of bothered me that I didn't know how to speak to all the other people at the school who were all speaking a different language than me, except for this tiny little program that I was in. And a friend of mine - it was really dark, and like to rent a studio to try to dance was super expensive. So I was only able to do that like two or three times. And a friend of mine who was also in the program was like, Hey, there's this climbing gym in this gymnasium. Typical. It was like a wall the size of this podcast room. And we met tons of Swedes, we like went in there and he and I would just like traverse this tiny room and like make up random stuff because the space was so small that you had to get creative with it. But then other Swedes were coming in and they were joining in and it was like this game. And we would all play together and like I started to hear the language and like they would tell me what certain words were and I could start to hear them and I ended up being able to speak -5- pretty good Swedish by the end of that. That program but it yeah, that definitely. It was like, Oh, I can hang out with really interesting people do this fun thing. And just have a good time. Tallie Casucci 19:51 How long was the program? Carrie Cooper 19:53 It was like nine months. Tallie Casucci 19:55 Okay. That's pretty good. What else was kind of impactful when you were studying abroad? Besides kind of finally building a little community there. Carrie Cooper 20:13 I like learning about other culture's values and politics. So intercultural Organizational Psychology, psychology is essentially like, so organizational Psych is the organization of a company, given its values, beliefs, mission statement, whatnot, like the culture of a company. But if you add the intercultural side of it, it's like, how do I take this business and bring it abroad? Like, you know, if I'm an American company who wants to start production in Vietnam? How do I do that? I mean, that's like a really, like, macro example. But there are a lot of micro examples of that. But it's also kind of, especially because it was in Sweden, it was thinking about things from a sustainable side, because the, at that time, Sweden was very they had a really strong vision for sustainability, recycling, using materials that are produced in that place, rather than a lot of import export. And so that was really interesting. Part of that stay. Yeah. Tallie Casucci 21:43 What made you want to study abroad when it seemed that dance was kind of your life at that point? Carrie Cooper 21:51 It's funny. I liked I always enjoyed travel. Probably more than anything. It's the going to the place. Um, I yeah, my sister did a study abroad program. She's eight years older than me. And I was always like, well, when's my study abroad program? Maybe, I don't know, it was an opportunity to get out of Greensboro, North Carolina which I don't really like. Yeah, and I wasn't particularly psyched to go to Sweden. But it was the program that was available. And it's funny because I loved it. It was so great. I didn't like the darkness. Tallie Casucci 22:47 What did you learn while you were over there? Carrie Cooper 22:52 How to rock climb? No. Tallie Casucci 22:54 That's not the answers your parents want. -6- Carrie Cooper 23:02 Well, I mean, I, I kind of went over like what intercultural organizational Psych is, so I got a certificate in that program. So that was the I could be a project manager for an international corporation, like following school following mentorship, like that was the road that I was on as far as a job goes. So I actually had to quit or slow down dance. And this is backtracking a little bit because I ended up at Arts Conservatory at the North Carolina School of the Arts. During that time, I incurred a pretty bad back injury. I herniated at least two discs in my back and couldn't really dance and was like really taken out of school quite a bit and had to to the point where they were like, Okay, maybe you should just take a semester off. And my parents were like, just go and do your general studies at UNC Greensboro and I ended up enjoying the academics much more than I thought academics were never a part of my upbringing. I'm pretty sure I slept through most of high school just got so tired. Um, and I just sort of like funneled through all of it. But given the opportunity to do some academics, I loved it. I thought I just like like neuro psych, was so cool. Everything in psychology was really cool. I liked I liked a lot of the weirder stuff. I like the stats course. So I just kind of like stayed in that. And then the program was there. So I went with that program. I'm like a creature of, of like, just following what life puts in front of me, without having huge plan for it. But, so Tallie Casucci 25:11 So then what did you do after you graduated? I assume you graduated with psychology and a dance double degree? Carrie Cooper 25:19 Yeah, I did a double in dance in psychology and I graduated from the Honors Program cum laude, you know. Tallie Casucci 25:33 For someone who hated academics growing up! Carrie Cooper 25:37 It was like, so weird. My parents were like, "I'm sorry, what?" Well, after that, I started doing project management for a web design company and hated it. Like, really hated it. It was, I was being a part of something that was so intangible to me. That it just I was like, why are we doing this and this is this was during like the whole .com. Bubble. So that was a, like, it was mind numbing. So I would just be I had rediscovered climbing again, climbing just kept coming back. It was like, Are you sure you don't want to do this? I had rediscovered it. And I was in Greensboro. And they did have a big gym. So they had huge sport climbing routes, they had a bouldering gym, it was awesome. And one day I was bouldering in on the roof, and I looked down and my, my chalk bag was there. And so I didn't want to land on my chalk bag. So I landed like a little bit wide in my stance, and I tore my ACL. And so again, had to rehab, no stranger to physical therapy, good physical therapists, terrible physical therapists, all of the above. So in that it was okay for me to work as a project manager. But while I was doing that, sitting around, losing my mind, I was Googling or whatever it was at the time, images of rock climbing. And so like I was seeing all of these places, like in Spain for sport climbing, and Fontainebleau and all of these gorgeous, gorgeous, faraway, climbing spots. And I was like, that's what I want to do. So I saved up all -7- my money. And after I rehab my ACL, I moved to Europe for nine months. And I just traveled all over Europe and a little bit of Africa, and basically taught myself how to climb and just climbed all over the place. So that was really, my that was like getting my masters in climbing. Tallie Casucci 28:10 When you were traveling, what are some takeaways that you think that you still keep with you today from that experience? Carrie Cooper 28:22 I hope that this is still the case today, I actually don't know that this is still the case. But at the time, climbing was small enough that if you showed up at a crag by yourself, even if you barely spoke the same language, if you were a climber, and they were a climber, you got along, you could climb together, you would have dinner together, it was like an automatic community. I don't know that that is still the case. I think that as climbing grows and is more accessible. I don't know that a lot of the ethics and the culture are being translated forward along with the the growing population. I don't know that the majority of climbers now understand the like, inclusiveness of climbing and how it has been in the past that like even if you're trying the same thing you shouldn't like, you know, try to sabotage someone's claiming or, you know, not include them or I I just don't know that that is still that that would still be the case. Tallie Casucci 29:45 Interesting. So then, eventually you landed in Salt Lake, why did you move to Salt Lake and if there's things that we're missing fill it in? Carrie Cooper 29:57 So let's see I was in North Carolina. So I had the ACL I was project managing, I moved to Europe came back to North Carolina, I bouldered and lived in Boone for about a year and a half, I sold all my belongings I just wanted to climb. And that's what I did. And but at the same time, I was always getting injured. So I would end up like, either at the physical therapist, or I ended up also doing like, like an assistant, I did like an internship or whatever, at a PT clinic was unpaid. In Boone, and then in that I was like talking about, well, how do you become a PT does it matter where you go to school, and the guy that I was working with was like, it really doesn't matter PTs are PTs, you can go anywhere. And at the same time, I really wanted to Boulder on these horizontal limestone roofs in Flagstaff, Arizona. And I was like, they have a really good PT school, I want to go out west to do all this climbing that I haven't been able to do. So like Bishop, Hueco, these limestone roofs, I mean, I could keep naming areas that I wanted to go to I was like, I need to re, I need to leave the east, go west, and kind of be inundated by it out there. And so I ended up moving to Flagstaff with the thought that at some point in time, I would go to PT school. During that time, I was bouldering. All the time, I would go to the Priest Draw, I basically lived at the Priest Straw, I did actually live at the Priest Draw for about four months, like two years in a row, and also spent lots of time in Hueco, Hueco, Texas, near El Paso. And in Bishop, California at the Buttermilks during that time I became a pro climber was sponsored by as many companies as I could possibly get at the time, which at that time, bouldering was not something that companies were very interested in. From a marketing standpoint, they didn't really consider most most climbing companies didn't consider bouldering even as climbing. So, you know, it was what it was. And I was super into it, -8- because it's very social. And it's easy to like, be involved with other people while you're climbing. And it took me to cool places, but so I was making a meager amount of money doing that. Occasionally, I would come back to Flagstaff and like do courses. Mostly I was teaching at the time, actually. So I would like Teach for a semester. And then I would go away for like eight months. And then I would come back and I would teach and I had this patchwork quilt of jobs that I did. I think it wasn't until I had my first child in 2006 that I really buckled down for the PT route and just being a little bit less transient. So I started taking night classes at the community college. And I did all my prerequisites for PT school post, like post undergrad, I didn't take any science courses, really in school. So I had to take physics and chemistry. I had to take math, and I had all that stuff in order to get into PT school. And when I got into PT school, I was pregnant with my second child. And my husband is from Flagstaff and was so ready to leave Flagstaff but we couldn't leave Flagstaff because I had a project at the Priests Draw called The Receptionist. And it's V10. And I had already done other V10s by this time, still always working on The Receptionist. And I would go project it at like, you know six in the morning on in the summer. And then I would continue into the fall. I my project did that thing for two years. And you know, I would come home and my husband Kyle George would be like, "did you send it?" And I would say "no". "Okay. Did you send it?" "No." "Did you send it?" "Yeah." "Great. Can we leave Flagstaff now?" So basically the moment that I sent that got into PT school, the U at the University of Utah, here in Salt Lake City was my top choice. They had this, this professor named Paul LaStayo, who was actually a professor at NAU, who everybody that's in back Flagstaff, Northern Arizona University, everybody loved him. But he moved up to the University of Utah. And I was like, What's this program like? And this program here was, it had so much more than the program in Flagstaff that I was interested in. And so that was my top choice. And I did not expect to get in. Yeah. So when I did, my husband was like, we're moving now. So we moved to Salt Lake. And we've been here ever since we have two kids. Tallie Casucci 35:36 Before you move to Salt Lake, doing the pro climber, or attempting to make ends meet as a professional climber, what stands out to you at that time? Because it was very different than how it is now, can you kind of describe what that scene was like? Carrie Cooper 35:58 I had to learn how to write magazine articles. And I had to learn how to do a blog. And I was friends with a lot of really incredible photographers. And so that like in order to have, especially as a female in order to get paid as a climber, you needed to have really good photos. And thankfully, I had great friends and my husband was also a photographer. And so that enabled us to like, we sold photos, we sold, magazine articles. And that definitely paid for paid for some of the travel. And then we could subsidize it with like, I would bake scones in Bishop at the bakery of like, five in the morning. Or, yeah, it was a wage, server and restaurant, just things that like, we found things that you could kind of come and go from. And a lot of people in Flagstaff, were really open to the idea of you just like traveling around and doing. Like, at least my my boss at this restaurant that I worked at was he was a climber. He owned the restaurant. And I'd be like, "Hey, Tony, will be gone for five weeks. And I'll be back this time." He's like, "great, have fun. You got a job when you come back." So it was I was really able, via the community to be able to fund the things that I wanted to do. Tallie Casucci 37:37 -9- Awesome. Are there any particular climbs from that period that stand out to you as being really memorable or you're really proud of? Carrie Cooper 37:49 The Receptionist? Tallie Casucci 37:50 Besides The Receptionist? Carrie Cooper 37:53 Oh, man. Wow, I did a lot of really good climbs during that time. I'm trying to think there's this climb in Bishop. It's not necessarily like the hardest thing that I've done. But it was just so the rock was so different. It kind of it's almost a 3d boulder. It's called the Painted Cave. And it's in this area called Dale's Camp so it's not in the main zone. But it's this standalone boulder that sort of this like boulbus moving blob of of a boulder just looks so weird. It comes you start down in this cave and you go out this like really black rounded cave and then you have to transition your body over and this is all slopers like there's no crimps it's like slopey open handed very it's like you're just trying to hug this blob and it moves a lot I love that climb because it's weird multi pitches in are you talking about like my whole climbing career like what specifically is this only when I'm when I was a pro? Tallie Casucci 39:42 Yeah, maybe just as a professional climber. We can talk later about more recent climbs later. Carrie Cooper 39:46 New Zealand. New Zealand has. So there's a climb called Mobius in it's at the top of it I can't believe I can't remember it's at Castle Hill. I can't remember the area right now. But it's like a 45 minute straight up hike. And it's a climb that I actually wasn't able to do. And I still think about it now. But again, it was kind of roofie and also very similar to the Painted Cave. actually very similar when I think about it. Really powerful climbing really hard. Tallie Casucci 40:39 Were you normally drawn to kind of steep cave sloper-y things? Carrie Cooper 40:45 Yeah, I, I didn't start full camping until I moved here. I only Oh, and I'm I'm five. This is really important to know, actually, I am five one with no ape. So I am really small. I'm on the very small end of adult. And when people say, oh, you know the short person beta for this. It's too tall for me, like 99% of the time. So, high balls. I'm not really a high baller, I don't like high balls. I don't like landing from high up. I like really easy high balls. Like in Hueco. There are so many like v0 to v2 high balls that are incredible. But mostly Yes, I like my strength because I'm five one is with my hands as open as possible. Because the moment that I start to bend my fingers, I lose two to four plus inches. So then I go from being five one to being like four, nine, or something. And that is so I'm, I'm really really, really really strong in an open handed position. Like I can do, I can do pull ups on a like open handed 9 to 10 millimeter edge. Like I'm just like, knock them out. Easy. Like I can talk to you while I'm doing it. But the moment that I - 10 - have to close my crimps down, it's almost like I have zero strength. My whole arm just like gives out and I can't climb. So yeah, I gravitate, at least historically have gravitated towards more powerful open handed pockets even I love pockets. You don't really crimped pockets very often. Tallie Casucci 42:48 That's neat. What was the climbing scene like when you're bouldering? This was like late '90s, right? Carrie Cooper 43:01 Very few women. There was a lot of people telling me that I couldn't do things. Like a lot. Like I would do, I would do a will there is a term that I don't necessarily enjoy at this moment. It's called the first female ascent. But I would be doing these first female ascents and I would throw my heel up by my hand so that I could like, do a move. And I've had people actually tell me in the past, they would never do this now. "Oh, that doesn't count. You can't do a heel hook." "Heel hooks. That's cheating." "Heel hooks are cheating." Like, just a move is cheating. "No, no, no, no, she didn't do that one." Yeah, so like the way that I actually climbed a lot by myself for a long time. Like, especially in the Priest Draw. But just because it's so accessible. You can climb there by yourself, you just have to bring a bunch of pads. It's not high. And I find that it takes me a long time to figure out beta. Like, I can't just watch a beta video and I can't just listen to somebody tell me what the beta is for a certain climb. And so typically, it takes me longer to do climbs than most because I have to like, you know, bust out my monocle and find all these random holes that nobody's using. Or just figure out different beta for things. And sometimes that's better when people aren't like, can we go to the next climb now? So yeah, I would. I climbed a lot by myself back then. But there were I mean, the community was really fun. Yeah, like it was, was just like a bunch of derelicts. Like, didn't like rules. didn't care about responsibility all that much. No, they really didn't care about responsibility. No, I think but, um, so it was just like, low, low responsibility low. It was just like a big party, essentially. Tallie Casucci 45:34 You mentioned that you had several first female ascents, but you don't like that term. Can you tell me about that? Carrie Cooper 45:46 So back when that term was coined, it was really not meant to, at least in my mind, as a female who was in that cohort, which was very small. It was not meant to celebrate the ascent, it was meant to, like go, oh, well, she's doing this, it was almost meant to separate us, away from each other. And so there was it, it became such a sought after term, rather than just enjoying the climbing or enjoying the send, maybe you're with your friend who's a girl. And you're doing this together, took it less from being about the climbing and more about being first. So that was a really negative term, when it came to promoting any kind of camaraderie between female climbers. When I would say basically, the moment that term started being thrown around, was a very negative time for women in climbing. Tallie Casucci 47:07 Do you still feel that way now, when people throw that term out? Carrie Cooper 47:12 - 11 - Less so just because the community is so different? Like the it's there's so many women who are supporting each other in these and maybe they're not doing them together? But at least they're not being nasty about it? And, and I do think that when it first came to be a term, it was one that that came from the male population. And it was, yeah, definitely did not have, like, maybe when it was first coined, like the first person to say it, or whatever, was being celebratory, but then it very quickly became like a tool for competition. And, like, just being cutthroat about it. Tallie Casucci 48:04 In your experience with other female climbers did you see that influence your relationships with them? Carrie Cooper 48:13 Absolutely. Yeah. And I? I feel like a lot of times, I don't really I don't see it coming until it's like, "oh, my gosh, did you just do that to me?" So like, at the time, I would just, yeah, "you want to come out with me to this project that no other female has done? You want me to tell you all the beta?" "Absolutely." "Wait a minute. You just went out without me. And, like, brought all these people and sent it without me?" Like, wait a minute. I'm it just like, it was very sneaky and unsupportive. I was a really sneaky time where like, we were like, "oh, yeah, you've got all the beta. I'm going to go out with you. But then I'm not going to support you. Ever." Tallie Casucci 49:14 Interesting. So it seems that you were aware of it at the time that this concept was being competitive? Carrie Cooper 49:22 I was aware of it. I knew it was happening. I definitely felt it. And when it was and I'm you know, I'm definitely I did fall prey to it as well. It I know I'm not. Yeah. Like I There were times when I didn't want people to come with me to certain things. Because yeah, maybe they would do it before me. But that that mentality was so . detrimental, that I really once I realized that that was happening, and my relationships were being affected. I pushed away from that so hard went the other way. Almost was like almost when I realized that I was doing it or when that was being done to me, I was like, almost to the point, just like over the top inclusive, like, and to this day, I don't care if someone else does something before me. Because typically they do. And, like, I'm so aware of the negativity that was put into my life at that moment, that like, I don't ever want to feel that again. Yeah. So I really actually, like the people that I enjoy rock climbing with the most are women who are stronger than me. Tallie Casucci 50:58 How have you cultivated those relationships now with that past experience in mind? Carrie Cooper 51:15 Trying to be as supportive as possible. Yeah. Tallie Casucci 51:26 Okay, so then you moved to Salt Lake for PT school. And then eventually you got really into Little Cottonwood Canyon, and I assume probably Joe's Valley, and Ibex. Can you talk about moving up here and that transition to being a full time student and then also climbing a bunch? - 12 - Carrie Cooper 51:50 Yeah, there were there were some years in there just like inconsistency with climbing. Where I wasn't as strong. And I wasn't climbing as much like during PT school. I was also postpartum. So it took me a long time to get strong again, at least to the to the level that I felt like I needed to be at or that I wanted to be at. And so I did like, Little Cottonwood is so close. I remember the first time I went to Little Cottonwood I couldn't even do the like, v0 on the Warm Up Boulder. But just kind of kept on it, you know, and I had really incredible, like, people who I'm not gonna say they're mentors they're friends who showed me around and taught me some of the technique like Justin Wood, who is a I always call him the Sheriff of Little Cottonwood because he knows all the boulders. He knows all the beta for all the boulders. And he's the one that like if you want to tour a Little Cottonwood, he's your guy. So I was climbing with him a lot. And thankfully, I kind of learned the technique of Little Cottonwood. I'm not as good at Little Cottonwood climbing. It's not like the style that I'm the best at Joe's Valley. Like my early days in Joe's Valley, were so incredible. I was climbing so many incredible, incredible climbs, like Finger Hut and Playmate of the Year. Playmate of the Year is one of my favorite climbs of all time. If that thing ever gets chipped, I will cry. Because that's happening in Little Cottonwood right now. And in Joe's Valley. It's really sad. There are like I did the sit to Resident Evil. I did Resident Evil like seven times. I was doing a lot of Joe's Valley, not as much indoor climbing. But I think once I added indoor climbing, I got stronger for the things that I was less good at. And that was Little Cottonwood and we had myself and Dave Jones and Ronnie Jenkins had this had this bet in a season, we were like okay, the goal is 200 points, new to you, V8 and above in one season. And whatever you don't do, you have to pay to the Salt Lake Climbers Alliance as a donation. And so we were amped and I did I think I did like 90 or 100 points or something. And I had to pay money to this SLCA which is fine, which I did happily multiple years in a row, but I'm good having that goal, like, Yeah, we did a lot of climbs and Little Cottonwood things that like I would have never seen even because, you know, for Justin, he was trying to do new things. And like I said, he already has done like so many things. We're doing this really like off the wall V8s, V9s, random stuff in the woods. So that was really fun. Tallie Casucci 55:26 That's awesome. I love the Little Cottonwood challenges. Are there any other memorable climbs or experiences in the mountains that have had a lasting impact besides the stories you've shared already? Carrie Cooper 55:48 Well, you know, when you ask it point blank like that, it's really hard to come up with the exact thing. Like, I think some of my favorite moments are times when you you just kind of least expect success, or a least expected combination of events. For example, down in Joe's Valley, there's the Joe's Valley Reservoir, which is at the top of left fork, and then you've got the river that comes down. And it can rage at times, like I think people kayak it. But there's a boulder that's called The Angler. And it's gigantic. And it's essentially like half the year it's in the water. Or at least it was I don't know if that's the case anymore, due to erosion and whatnot, but but there was this really deep pool on the side of it. And the first time I ever did the Angler, which is this beautiful v3, extremely hard to start if you're small. So I would say it actually has like closer to a V5 start if you're small. And then the rest of it is like it's just like this giant rail. So I did that climb. It was beautiful. I got down. And the first time I ever strung up my fly fishing rod chose my fly all by myself. I caught my first fish there at the Angler boulder underneath - 13 - actually the fish came from underneath the Angler. And so this is like, perfect, symbiotic moment of like, why the boulder is named what it is in the situation that it's named. And I was like, Yes, I have completed the tail. I you know, I can't I love climbing really hard problems. But I also just love the process. I love the process of projecting something and figuring it out, figuring out your beta for it, and then like executing it. Almost to the point where it's too easy. By the time that I do it. There's a really popular climb up in Little Cottonwood called The Euro Roof. everybody and their brother is trying this thing, but when I did it, nobody was up there. It was not. It was not on anyone's radar was like a boulder and Little Cottonwood which nobody wanted to boulder in Little Cottonwood. It's this humongous roof, which is really unusual for Little Cottonwood, like you don't really get roofs like this. And yeah. Tallie Casucci 58:47 It's been excavated. Carrie Cooper 58:48 It's been excavated many times, but the original Euro Roof was not excavated, that was just like, it just like was there. You know, like, the holes are pretty close to the lip, maybe like a couple of rocks removed to make a nicer landing. But the the boulder problem itself now just keeps going down, down, down. And it's to the point where you're like, Where does this boulder end? Does it even at how many more holds are on it, it's insane? We're like a bunch of moles, you know, trying to find more, more difficult. More rock climbs. But that was a really fun experience to go up there. And, you know, you hike through the talus. You see moose, you go to this boulder that nobody's on and thankfully do it before now everybody wants to do it. Yeah, I actually really like being in the woods with not very many people. Which is you don't get that as much anymore. Tallie Casucci 59:57 Yeah, I was just about to ask, you seems like you gravitate towards being alone in the woods bouldering, what emotions or why do you like that? Carrie Cooper 1:00:12 It's quiet. And I don't ever feel like watched, or I don't feel pressure at all, if I'm by myself, or if I'm with like a couple of people, and we're bouldering it's, I don't feel like I need to rush. I don't feel like like, there's not a whole lot of like the I think it's the quiet that I enjoy. And just like being able to focus on what you're doing. You just do it as well as you can. Tallie Casucci 1:00:55 So let's talk about physical therapy. Why did you become a physical therapist and what excited you about it then and now? Carrie Cooper 1:01:07 I'm accident prone. I've had a lot of injuries in my life. And I'm constantly kind of rehabbing out of something and into something else. So that was a natural fit for me was going into PT. I really, I love pathokinesiology, and I love movement. And so physical therapy as a practice was. Yeah, it just like as a perfect combination of those things. Like I kind of joke about it, I'm like more of a, I'm more of a pathokinesiology just than strict PT, I do enjoy getting people better. But I enjoy finding out what's going - 14 - on and why it's going on and then fixing that. So that is like the philosophy of my PT career really is like, it's more trying to figure out the tissues at fault, the extent to which which those tissues are at fault. And then also the person's ability to either learn how to get out of that situation or just to heal. So we're dealing with physiology, but we're also dealing with like, body IQ, which is I kind of came up with this phrase, everybody has a different body IQ. So how in tune you are with your own body's movement, and the ability to learn movement. Like people who don't know the left's from their rights, or unable to sense where their left knee is, in order to bend it a certain way, or to push in a certain way, and how long that takes. So I'm also a teacher, like I'm a movement teacher. How, how do you teach someone to be in their body essentially, and to get to heal and to get better? And hopefully, that thing doesn't come back. That's a big goal of mine. Tallie Casucci 1:03:16 So when you first started, I know you were doing a lot of pelvic health and people's movement. And eventually, you kind of switched to focusing on climbers? Or were you always working with climbers? Carrie Cooper 1:03:35 So when I started PT school, I was postpartum. And that was my second baby. My first baby. I my OBGYN at the time, they didn't think that you should do anything in pregnancy. They were like, "don't ride a bike. Don't ski don't run, maybe walk but be careful." And so really, they were like, "I'm sorry, you're a rock climber? No, definitely don't do that." And I had the worst pregnancy, I ended up getting preeclampsia, I had a terrible labor, I had horrible, SI joint issues, I got really weak, and my labor artists or that my labor was terrible. And so after that happened, I was like, with the second baby, I was like, "No, I am not doing any of that." And so I would go into my OBGYN and I would say okay, in broad terms, "will this hurt the baby?" So like, "if I use my abs? Will that hurt the baby? If I get my heart rate up to 115?" Which is nothing like climbing is anaerobic. So I'm not. Yeah. Will, that is that. Okay. What are the risk factors like what should I really be worried about? You know, so landing was a big one. That was really the only thing was like, just don't land, poorly. So I kept climbing through my second pregnancy and ended up. And I did video because I was also sponsored at the time. So I did a video, it's called, like nine and a half months or something like that. I can't even remember what it's called "39 Weeks." That's what it's called. And it's me sport climbing 5.11 at 39 weeks. And that was a perfectly easy, wonderful activity for me. And I wasn't on lead, I was on top rope. And I kept a blog the whole time and USA Today and the Sierra Club, both recognized what I was doing, and started a conversation actually kind of out of that, like public display of a pregnant woman doing something that was potentially risky. You know, there was another woman who ran, I think it was the Boston Marathon at like eight months pregnant eight or nine months. I mean, that is way more badass, in my opinion, than climbing at 39 weeks. But um, so kind of out of that whole media extravaganza, the American Congress of Obstetrics and Gynecology came back together. And they, they re-examined the literature, current research, and they changed their guidelines for pregnant women. And about that time, I was actually already in PT school. And I was like, you know, maybe it was like my second semester. And Scott Ward, who was the head of the PT department, he was like, "You should think about going into women's health. "And I was like, "hmm, could I work with pregnant athletes?" And he was like, "I don't see why not. I don't know, go talk to this guy." And so and so we sort of like put me on a path to work with pregnant athletes. And that's how I got into pelvic health. Because that, that is a sub genre of PT, or subspecialty, is very integrated. So you do pelvic health, you work with pregnant women, you work - 15 - with postpartum. And that's how I got into being in that I did that for a specialized starting. I think it was starting in my second year of PT school, and then continued to work as a public health therapist for two years. But all during that time, I mean, I was still being paid to rock climb. And I was going on rock climbing trips. And people who are really strong rock climbers, were recognizing that Carrie's a PT she can fix us, should we trust her? I don't know if we can trust her actually. I don't know, maybe we won't. Maybe we will have um, I'm really messed up. I'll trust her just for a second. So these climbers started to come to me. And because where I was working, there were no other therapists that knew how to work with rock climbers. And so all the climbers would come to me, they just, you know, go see Carrie she'll what to do with you. Um, and one of those climbers ended up being Alex Puccio, who's the 11th time national champion, bouldering champion. And she essentially was like, you're coming with me. And so I will go to all the world cups with her. I would, I was kind of like her sub coach, and pt. And she really taught me how to work with athletes. Like I learned so much from her and from being in those like just on the World Cup circuit, and on the national circuit, working with people who like that was their job was working with athletes, and most of them were more athletic trainer type. But I gained a lot of experience and information from that. And I also learned what they didn't know. And as someone who likes to figure things out, I really like picked some climbing pathologies and climber specific pathologies, and made it my project to understand these things. Partially because and I'm glad that this is on the record. This is the first time I have ever said this. partially because I wanted to prove to people that I wasn't just a pretty face. I had so many colleagues make sexual advances towards me in those early years of trying to work with World Cup climbers. And they really worked pretty hard to not have me in that space. So, or at least, like intimidate me out of it. And so and I giggle about it now, because I'm still here. And they're not. They're not working with that population anymore, which is really good. But in, in having that added, like, "wow, did you really do that?" Like, I'm gonna figure this out, because I know you don't know about it. And I'm very competitive as you can tell. So from we got, I just, I just rambled a little bit. But from the pelvic health side into working with athletes, that was really what I wanted to be doing. Originally, thankfully, I got to learn this entire side of PT, which has informed a ton of my practice, like lumbo pelvic injuries are really complex. And if you're dealing with people who have ankle, knee, hip, torso, like it's all connected, and it's connected in such interesting ways, that I don't think that I would have totally understood the core had I not worked in pelvic health. And core is a huge component in upper extremity stability and power, which rock climbers absolutely rely on. Tallie Casucci 1:12:00 Oh, that's so cool. How you want to basically work with yourself and help other women who were in similar situations, and then it always is coming back to your climbing. That's great. So what are some health topics that you're thinking about when dealing with the climbing population? Carrie Cooper 1:12:32 Fingers. Number one, I've been studying finger injuries since I left my pelvic health job. I actually started a clinic at a climbing gym. And at that point, I got I was so saturated with the climbing community and with climbing injuries, and I was seeking them out. I would like wander around the gym and be like, Are you injured? do you want me to look at it. Just so that I could hands on understand what was going on. Like what's normal? What's abnormal? Is this symptomatic on you know, okay, what is this and like, in that time? Mostly, fingers are the number one. Number two is shoulders, elbows. I mean, you would think that that is like either number two or number three, but I would actually - 16 - say knees. People have a lot of knee issues that they don't really, they're like, I don't need to use my legs. And so they don't really pay attention to them. But a lot of people have knee injuries. I don't know it's a it's a toss up between knees and elbows. Tallie Casucci 1:13:49 Interesting, so that Carrie Cooper 1:13:51 I would say I'm sorry to cut you off here. Climbers get a combination of rugby, baseball, and painter injuries. Tallie Casucci 1:14:07 Explain. Carrie Cooper 1:14:09 It's so rugby is a contact sport. We are putting so much power through tissues that don't usually see that level of power for example, AC joint and clavicle. Injuries like this, like the way that your shoulder is connected to your torso. That is not a you unless you're like falling off your bike. This is like a big zone for climbers. So like rugby players get injured in their clavicular area whether it's their sternal-, your sternoclavicular joint or their AC joint or they're like some other joint within the shoulder. complex. So that's unusual. But the finger injuries are 100% Climbing specific, normal, people don't get the same things that we get. and we get them to such insane numbers, that it just blows all the other reasons for finger injuries out of the water. The painter is like an overhead. So like, especially if you've got your the painting brush, and you're doing repetitive overhead motions and a rotatory motion, so that's like, rotator cuff issues, and then the anterior capsule of the shoulder is really lacks on baseball pitchers. So we get combinations. Tallie Casucci 1:15:56 It makes it fascinating for you. That's great. So tell me about you started a clinic in the climbing gym and now you have your own business, what was the impetus for starting your own business? And also your vision for having your own business? Carrie Cooper 1:16:18 So I think I realized while I was doing pelvic health that I really couldn't understand climbing injuries to the extent that I either wanted to understand them or work with them, that I really needed to be saturated with it in order to get because there, there were only a handful of research articles available. And there was like one, one medical professional, who was putting out any kind of information via book, all the other information was coming from athletic trainers or people who were just climbers, or like physiologists. So there wasn't really a whole lot of information to draw on, for how do you fix these injuries specific to the climbing public. And so I had the opportunity from one of the gym owners was like I have all this space, I'd like to, I'd like to have a PT clinic or something. And so that opportunity presented itself to have a clinic in a climbing gym, and I jumped on that. I gave like a six week heads up that I was quitting my job, and then started this clinic. And it was great. But at the same time, I was all by myself. And so I started to go, okay, who's writing this article who wrote this book? I'm gonna call - 17 - those people. So I was like cold calling these you know, orthopedic surgeons in Germany, or, you know, anybody that I felt like could answer any question possible. Natasha Barnes in California, who is actually a chiropractor, but I knew her as a she's a pro climber as well. And incredibly intelligent human being. And I'd be like, "have you seen this? What are you doing?" And she's like, "I don't know what to do. What are you doing?" I'm like, "Ah, maybe if you try this, and I'll try this." And she's like, "You should try this." So we were just like, trying stuff. And there was a climbing medicine symposium in Canada was the first Canadian Climbing Medicine Symposium. And it was an open invite to people who wanted to do a presentation. And she put it on my radar and was like, "You should present about finger injuries" because that was the thing that I was so interested in at the time. And she was gonna present about weightlifting, for squatting for climbers. And so we went up there together to Toronto. And I presented essentially, this, it was the beginning of my schema for classifying finger injuries based on severity. And it was a more conservative approach. So you could do it with special tests. You didn't need an ultrasound. You didn't need an MRI. That was a clinical evaluation tool. And it was based on the work of Volker Schöffl, Isabella Schöffl, and I essentially like presented their work to them, and then said, "here's how I think that we can use this from a PT standpoint." And it was like presenting a doctoral thesis they had, it was 30 to. It was like 30 to 40 minutes of questions from them, like, "have you thought about this? What about this? Is this how you really want to present this? Like, like really trying to figure out? How do A, wait a minute, you're a PT, and you're calling yourself Dr. B, do you actually know what you're doing? And then see, okay, you do." So how are we going to make sure that we get this in the right way in the right organization, and then put forward into the public. And so that was a huge opportunity for me to present physical therapy, and the world of physical therapists, as a research like that we have the ability to do research in climbing medicine. And we can treat these things without surgery or something like that was a, it was a big breakthrough, I'm gonna say is a big breakthrough for physical therapists in climbing. Tallie Casucci 1:21:04 That's very neat. Can you tell me a little bit more about your schema and kind of the collaborations that came from that initial presentation? Carrie Cooper 1:21:15 So it is, in order to make it as black and white as possible for people, I based it on Paul LaStayo, and Dr. Dixon's it was actually an elbow is lateral epicondylitis. schema. So it was four variables. So you pick as many variables as you can possibly empirically measure. And you delineate that out into severity and see if it works. So first thing that I noticed was the range of motion changes. So range of motion is a variable, pain is a variable, and I always have to re redefine people's pain scales for them. Because athletes have really terrible ability to sense pain. And so that pain scale is based in like, your ADLs, or at rest, and then also during climbing. So climbing is definitely a part of that pain scale. And then palpation is another one. So how hard you have to push on the given spot in order to elicit pain and resistance tests. So you have to be able to test the, the strength of the tendons that pass under. And this this schema is specific to A2 flexure pulley. And I call them strains because you can't tell conservatively, if it's a full rupture, unless you have an ultrasound, that's kind of the gold standard. So in this case, we have to call them strains and to what severity they are. And I vetted this schema over before it was published, I'd only I'd only done it for four years. So that was like, it started with an n of 40 or so to really like dwindle it down to those variables that were consistent across all of those injuries. - 18 - And then from there, my spreadsheet went into like the quadruples, it's just like, so treatment down the road based on the severity became like, oh, is this actually working? Can I take a moderate? So it's mild, moderate or severe? Can I take a moderate and progress them to being mild? Or do I over prescribe and regress them into being a severe? You know, what happens if they don't do anything? Do they become severe? And so trying to understand the, the natural. The Chronicle of an A2 physical injury became a big project of mine. Tallie Casucci 1:24:31 Since then there seems to be a growing interest in the climbing population from a clinical and a researcher stance. Can you talk kind of about what that means in terms of conversations and collaborations since that initial Canadian Climbing Medicine Symposium and what that kind of meant to you? Carrie Cooper 1:25:05 You know, climbing physical therapy or climbing physios have become super popular. And I think that physical therapists have a really good background and ability to work with climbers, climbers as a population, I would say are a bit more on the nerdy side, and they want to know what's going on, they have already read all the research on whatever given injury they might have. And so physical therapists given that we are also voracious readers. I think it's a perfect combination. And I think that's why we see a lot more physical therapists working with climbers rather than just athletic trainers, which I think that athletic training is also becoming a huge, very popular side to this, like with the training aspect, but it didn't start that way. I think that organizations like the International Rock Climbing Research Association has also helped to kind of further that camaraderie between genres within climbing science, like whether it be library studies, or, you know, biomechanics, physical therapy, those types of gatherings are very, very climber, like, our, our sport, is a little community. And having these events where like you can come together as a community is a very natural part of being a climber. Like we love festivals, we love climbing festivals, we love these things where we can get together and work together. And I think that, because of that, it has pushed our sport and our science so fast in a really short amount of time. Whereas, you know, 10 years, there were maybe 10 articles about climbing, and now there's like 2000, or whatever. And we're in the Olympics. I spoke at the Olympics, I spoke during the it's a medical program during the Olympics, and so the fact that climbing was the only sport in the Olympics to have its own day. It's kind of speaks to our community a little bit where because we're working together as an international community to further the knowledge of not only our sport, and ability, but also our science. Like it. I think that that really like the the truth of what climbing is in its soul. Is the reason why it's so popular now. There's more people too! Tallie Casucci 1:28:17 How would you describe the soul of the climbing community? Carrie Cooper 1:28:24 Nerdy. Loving challenge. Loving to overcome challenge. I'm not I can't really speak for the mountain climbing portion of the community, but I'm pretty sure they're pretty similar. Super nerds. That's typically how I describe the climbing community but also just enjoying being with other climbers, like I think climbers really gravitate to other climbers. - 19 - Tallie Casucci 1:29:01 Thank you. So it seems that the community of learning from other clinicians and researchers is really important to you, can you can you talk a little bit about your new website? And it seems like that fits really nicely into you being able to reciprocate that. Carrie Cooper 1:29:34 So just to speak a little bit to that camaraderie aspect. I tell those people that were the most skeptical are the people. What now? Six, seven years later, I speak to them on almost a weekly basis. Like I bounce ideas As off of my former mentors, now colleagues all the time, and I appreciate them so much. Now, with the website, I get a little nervous, because I'm afraid that I step on toes a little bit, or that I'm sharing too much. But it's really things that I feel like everyone should know. And there are, there are things that at this point are so intrinsic to how I understand climbing climbers, climbing injuries, that they're almost like a fact to me. And it blows my mind that people don't know these things. And I, there was a time period where I was just repeating myself constantly of these things that I feel like people should know. And I was like, Why don't they know this? This is crazy. And then I realized, Wait, Carrie, how many years? Did it take you to know these things? And maybe Are you the person that are supposed to tell people this? And so it is a true labor of love. I have spent my own money developing this website and like working to understand what's the best way to teach people certain things? How do they want to learn it? Is this something that you're interested in, sometimes I really don't care if they're interested, I'm just going to share it anyway. Because I think they need to know it. And so the website is really a labor of love. And it's a way for me to share information on as it is in an efficient way as possible. So that we can all get on the same page. Because there are people out there that don't have the mentors that I had, they don't have the ability to read the research that I read, because they're not in the research community. And that's a really hard thing to get your hands on research is. It's hard to I didn't understand why PTS who are working with climbers hadn't read my classification schema. And yet they were asking me all of these questions that are clearly covered in this, but I realized that they didn't have access to it. And so what's the best way without breaking that? You know, privacy sort of, I don't know, the the research bubble. How can I share that without doing like a copyright infringement, you know, that people should know it, and they should be practicing it because it's really useful. And so that was really the impetus for that and then there are programs on there that are vetted, that I have worked with for years and years and years and years, at this point, eight years, almost that are now available to the public. For a small fee so that I can pay for my website. Because nothing in life is free. So yeah, did that answer your question? Tallie Casucci 1:33:29 Yeah. Yeah, I think it's neat that you're sharing information with other people. So you mentioned this a little bit, who have been major mentors in your life whether that's climbing or PT or just in general? And what do you admire about them? Or what have they taught you? Carrie Cooper 1:33:54 Well, wow, Carla Wolfangle who was a principal dancer for the Paul Taylor, for Paul Taylor, who will she was one of his muses for years. She taught me to really get to know your body. And, like, we spent two hours one day trying to find your psoas and that was when people are like, Oh, I stretch my psoas - 20 - I'm like, Yeah, I doubt that actually. Because it's really hard to find. But that's okay. We can work on that. But she was a body sculptress like she really taught me how to describe movement, how to feel it in your body. She made me I would say more than any other teacher I've ever had. She made me a good mover and a good teacher. I'm, I guess I'm a good teacher. But, um, and then Andre Tyson, who was a principal dancer for the Alvin Ailey dance company who has a gorgeous human being, I had my back injury. And he was the one who at 7am. Every morning, we would go into the basement, Pilates studio of the North Carolina School of the Arts building. And we would rehab my back using Pilates. So that was my first experience of using movement to restore not only tissue health, but also motion. And so from there, I studied Pilates for years. I mean, I started doing Pilates in 95 96. And that was always kind of a subspecialty within PT for me, like I did it before PT school I did during PT school, and I still do it now. And so I studied under Amy Brockmeyer, who owns Pinnacle performance, and she taught me Pilates for rehabilitation, like specifically using movement to restore and rehab. She's been doing it for a long time. And she's a wizard. She's a manual therapy wizard as well. And so I learned a lot of manual therapy techniques from her Volker Schöffl, I've read all of his work over and over and over and over again and fought with him and agreed with him and learn from him and talk to him all the time. He's still my mentor, I think I've mentioned him a couple times. In climbing, who do I learn from and who are my mentors in climbing. The people that I climb with all the time. I've been climbing with Dr. Cheryl Pirozzi For the last 11 years, and I'm always learning many things from her. And also ruining myself to keep up with her. I'm all of the World Cup climbers that I've worked with have been hugely Alex Puccio taught me how to breathe when I climb. So I used to pull on to the wall, and stop breathing and just hold my breath. And, you know, she was like, Carrie, you have to exhale. And I know how to breathe from from Pilates and from dance. And from all of these things. I was not applying it to my climbing until she mentioned that and watching really, really good athletes move. I can I learned so much from just watching people. One of my favorite things about working on the World Cup circuit was watching how people warm up. And then not not just in seeing how well they did later, but also how it affects their movement or doesn't affect their movement, or. Yeah. And specifically, what are they doing? I love stealing PT techniques, also in that environment from all the other PTS there. Tallie Casucci 1:38:36 Yeah. So you're incredibly busy, and climbing is kind of a lifestyle sport. So how are you balancing your climbing PT business, you have a family. How are you attempting to balance all of that? Carrie Cooper 1:38:56 I don't really believe in balance. You know that that adage of like, "I only know a balance when I'm swinging past it." I actually don't enjoy balance all that much. I like controlled chaos. I like when I have a little downtime. But then I also like when there's a challenge that gets presented. I don't necessarily thrive in a linear environment. I like I like the chaos that I have. But I also find that my family is extremely grounding for me. And so that is where I find the most balance actually is is just hanging out with them and supporting them in what their interests are. I don't ever feel like I need to push my interests on my kids. And I kind of follow them and I think that that helps me stay balanced a little bit or this like elusive term balance. Um, I think I would get really bored. If I were in this like perfectly balanced life. I have little practices that helped me just like breathe. And yeah, keep my cholesterol and my cortisol levels lower. Yeah. - 21 - Tallie Casucci 1:40:24 What do you see is the biggest challenge facing the climbing community and that can just be here in Salt Lake or just in general? Carrie Cooper 1:40:32 I think it's an issue of having enough mentors in the outdoor sphere, to, to mentor all of the new climbers, on ethics of climbing, values of climbing. Because I think that we are even more so now stewards of the outdoors. And we spend so much time outside that we can really see the effects of population growth, climate change, we have years of information in our minds for how this place looked at a certain time period. And or, you know, how we relate to each other, especially as the world population increases. We're in a, we're in a sport that allows us to be cross cultural, and to be a community and to get along with people that aren't from our same backgrounds. And I think having people who are really good stewards in that sense, for the younger population, I think that's actually one of the biggest things facing us. Tallie Casucci 1:41:54 What impact do you think you've made or hope to have on the climbing and the PT communities? Carrie Cooper 1:42:11 Oh, I think you know, girls can be powerful. From, you know, both the bouldering sense. But as well as just being able to, you know, solve problem solve. And, yeah, fix things. Yeah, I think that's the biggest one. Yeah. Girls are smart. Girls are strong. That's what I hope continues. Tallie Casucci 1:42:56 I love that. Is there anything else that you'd like to share that we haven't talked about so far? Carrie Cooper 1:43:03 Well, one of your questions that you didn't get to that I read was, what are your hobbies? And that question actually has stuck with me for about a week now. And I've been contemplating that, probably more than any question, because I was like, hobbies. "What's a hobby? What is a hobby?" And I've been asking people, "What are hobbies? Okay, first, what is a hobby? And what are yours?" I've gotten so many answers. And it's helped me kind of understand that, like, I do have downtime. It's just really short. But it's super important. And My hobbies are. They're very fluid. But the thing that I've probably had the longest as a hobby is learning about economics. I love I know, right? It's weird. I love economics. And I don't necessarily understand all the words that they use, and I need to listen to a lot of things in order to understand it. But I love macro, and I love micro economics. And I listen, and I read those things. Because I'm not a great reader. Like, I don't finish fiction novels. I'm not that's not my hobby. I read research for my job, but I'm a really slow reader. And so I kind of consume all of these different things regarding economics. And that's my hobby. I also really like word games. So I'm obsessed with Wordle and Spelling Bee from the New York Times. And I get really upset that I can't do more of them because the app doesn't allow you to do more than one a day. But I'm like, what if I could do more - What? What would happen? Yeah, I love that stuff. Tallie Casucci 1:45:06 - 22 - Oh, neat. Very cool. Any anything else that you want to share? Or even things that weren't on the list? Carrie Cooper 1:45:17 Yeah, I am 43 years old. Last Monday I got an MRI result of my back. And I have, like, I have multiple herniated discs, stenosis, bilateral Fustat, joint arthropathy on all levels, I have so much compression in my back that I can no longer land and bouldering. So you're speaking to me right now in a huge transition in my climbing life. Like I haven't sport climbed in three years. When I got the MRI results back, I like cried and decided that I needed to start sport climbing. And then I'm like crying while I'm putting on my harness out of the narrows with my friend Kip, who was super supportive in the transition, but it is just kind of a moment where my goal to be a climber throughout my lifespan is really like it is a reality right now. Like I am really actually living through some of that transition to how do I do this for the rest of my life. And I've been a boulderer for 20 plus years. And it's a big change. And I think that I think probably the way that I'm going to pursue this is as more of a mental challenge, rather than just a physical one. So I don't want to look at it and say, in three weeks, I want to be climbing 13 A, I want to say I want to feel comfortable climbing 10 Five elevens or, like, I need to deal with the physiology of what we call pump. Like how do I deal with my arms getting pumped, because I don't ever feel that. And that is 100% going to be the main thing that I have to get over with sport climbing. And so it's this huge change right now. So here we go. Chaos. I got it. Tallie Casucci 1:47:48 Yes. I think that's a beauty of climbing. Because you can. There's so many different aspects of climbing that you can go find still get that movement, but do it differently. Carrie Cooper 1:48:05 And there's a whole world of climbs that I haven't done. Yeah. Like literally a whole world. Tallie Casucci 1:48:15 All right. Well, thank you so much for coming up here and talking with me and sharing your story. Carrie Cooper 1:48:20 Thanks for having me. - 23 - Part 2: July 21, 2023 Tallie Casucci 00:01 Good morning. It's July 21, 2023. I'm Tallie Casucci and I'm talking with Carrie Cooper. We both realized when reviewing [transcript] part 1 that we did not talk about Little Cottonwood [Canyon] as much as we wanted to, so this is part two. So Carrie, tell me about Little Cottonwood climbing. Carrie Cooper 00:22 Historically, I have been a boulderer in Little Cottonwood. And I think I have a story about just about every single bouldering area in Little Cottonwood, so it's hard to narrow them down. So I think I'll start with maybe some of the most memorable experiences. I think the first one is going to be one of my more recent ascents actually, and not every memorable experience in Little Cottonwood has to do with a send. This one certainly did. I want to preface this a little bit by mentioning someone named Justin Wood, who has done an incredible job with making Little Cottonwood bouldering accessible to people. Historically, I think Little Cottonwood bouldering is difficult. The holds are not obvious, the style is a little bit less forgiving than in other areas. And he has a memory better than anyone else just about that I know for details, names, numbers, and especially beta. So he is the person that is amazing at giving you a tour and telling you really the best way to get up that boulder, so that people have a lot of success. I think thereby allowing Little Cottonwood to be more accessible to people especially coming from out of town or who are starting off in the gym. I give him a lot of credit there. The boulder that I want to talk about is at the Five Mile area, which is basically roadside, so it's extremely accessible to anyone that wants to boulder or just walk around in Little Cottonwood. And so this climb, it's called the Butt Trumpet, and it is a V8. And it's essentially a lip traverse to kind of a techy, a little bit scary, slabby, top out. And it's great! But that's not the point. The point is that there is some established beta that people tend to use for that climb. And I would also say that it's one of the most repeated V8s in the canyon, partially because of accessibility, but also because the beta makes sense. Once you find it, it seems to just click for people. And then you know, you've got to have the requisite strength and endurance to keep it together. But the beta does make so much sense for it. And it's really cool beta. But for me, I'm five one. And I have no ape, which means I'm like essentially an 11 year old. And none of that, typically the established beta does not work for me, but I will try it, I will always try it. And I will argue with people who tried to tell me that that beta is going to be the best for me, and then I will try it eventually. So I had tried Butt Trumpet quite a bit and sort of written it off as this boulder problem is not for me, I can't reach the holds. Because of the the nature of that boulder, there are very few feet. And there are specific hands that really work. And so I just sort of let it go. And as an older, as a climber, who basically did most of my like really hard, hard climbing in the early 2000s. I have a an approach that I'm used to taking with projects. And it's like if it makes sense to me, and it feels good, and it feels probable - that's one I'm going to give my goes to. And that problem really didn't and so I walked away from it. There's a new approach that the younger climbers have taught me, that I love and have worked really hard to sort of bring that approach into my climbing, which is to view climbs with curiosity. And learning, what does this climb have to teach me? It's less about, can I do it right now? Does it feel good? Is it happening this minute or you know, two weeks from now? But more so you're creating a relationship with the climb. And it's not about the send, even though it is on more secondary level. That's an approach that I have probably started using in the last two years. And it's really opened up a - 24 - lot of new climbs for me that I would have just totally written off. Butt Trumpet came back to me when Portia Menlove did it. And Portia is taller than me. She's also stronger than me. She's smarter than me. She's all the things! And I really look up to her as as a climber. And when she did it, I was like, "Huh?! It's possible! Let's just go play on it, see how it goes." And I didn't use her beta, like to a tee, but I used a lot of it. And just seeing that she was able to figure out something for her body that was different than what everybody else was doing, almost like gave me the license to do that. And then to do that with other climbs. So I started, I think I'm going to credit her with this actually. Because it was when I started trying Butt Trumpet in, I think it was like October of 2021. And I was doing okay on it. I was like, making moves, and figuring out beta and just kind of using it as, "I'm gonna go try this, and then we're gonna go somewhere else." And it was super low key. And then the next season, I was out there and it was a sunny day, the temps weren't perfect, but I was there with like, my best climbing partners, who are Cheryl Pirozzi and Jeff Richards, and Jay Keener was there. And there was this group who were all sessioning it and I don't do well in front of crowds. So I was like, "Nah, I'm not trying it today. This is not a good idea." And a random acquaintance just I was like, mumbling this, and they turned to me, and they're like, "Why wouldn't you try it?" And I was like, "You're right!" In my head, I was like, "You're right. Like, why wouldn't I try it? It doesn't matter. It's all about curiosity." I had to be like reminded of that, and I was like, "Okay, it's cool." And then the group left, and I gave it a go, and I didn't do it the first go. I had to drag my toe, closer to my hand to where there's not really a hold, and then cut my feet and hang there, before I generate a campus move to the final like, it's not a jug, whatever that hold, that like ledge is, but I had taken that too quickly and just like flown. So that didn't work. But then my next go, I hit it. And to be honest, I hadn't done the top out, since I've done like Baldy or Kung Fu or whatever. But being so short, I can get my legs up really easily. Cheryl is spotty me and she's like "You didn't do the top out?" I was like, "It's gonna be fine. I'm gonna be fine." She's like, telling me where to put my foot and I'm like, "I'm okay. I'm okay." I don't know where I put my foot, but it's stuck. And it was just great to have have had that experience of thinking that something wasn't possible and then being curious and figuring it out for yourself. And then having your best crew possible there, who was just like, it was almost like she was sending it with me. Like she did not want me to fall. And whatever was gonna happen, I was not falling. You know? It was just great. It was a great moment, send, situation all together. It was a really nice learning process. Tallie Casucci 00:22 No, that's a great story. Carrie Cooper 09:54 And it happens to be called Butt Trumpet of all things Tallie Casucci 09:59 It's such a funny name. Carrie Cooper 10:01 Yeah. Tallie Casucci 10:03 Nice. Are there any other climbs that are really memorable? - 25 - Carrie Cooper 10:08 Tallie, you're gonna have to be more specific. Tallie Casucci 10:11 You had mentioned St. Nick? Carrie Cooper 10:13 Oh, St. Nick. Okay. St. Nick was a climb that I had never seen. And it was during this period of time where Justin and David Jones and Ronnie Jenkins and I had kind of given ourselves a challenge of doing as many V8 and higher new builder problems is possible. I think I talked about this in part one where whatever we didn't achieve up to, I think it was like, up to either I can't remember now 100 or 200 points, we owed, it was 200. We had we owed in money to the SLCA. Was it two hundred? I don't remember. Anyway, anyway, you're gonna owe money to the SLCA was the whole point. And so St. Nick happened to be a climb that all of us had not done. And this is crazy, because Justin has done everything. And so to go up to a V9 that Justin has never done before and like work it with all. So it was Ronnie, Dave Jones, Justin, Cheryl, and I. And it was so fun to work this thing. I broke a hold at the top. It was very scary. But we all did it. And it was just it was just a fun situation to try to figure out the nuances with such strong humans, intelligent climbers. And we all sent it essentially at the same time. I'm always last in line. But you know, we all did it together that day. And it was that was a great experience. Tallie Casucci 12:02 Oh, nice! You mentioned before we started recording also some epics. Are there any, you'd mentioned Surprise, do you want to talk about that one or a different epic? Or I know you also had an ACL injury hike out too. Carrie Cooper 12:26 Oh my gosh, yeah, that one was not climb. Well, that was slightly climbing related. The ACL. I was searching for. Is it Wormography that's up there? I get Worms and Wormgraphy and there's another worms problem mixed up. But there's a there's a worm problem on The Hill that's kind of high up. And this was? Tallie Casucci 13:01 Wormography. Carrie Cooper 13:02 Yeah, Wormography. Yeah. That's it. This was in like October. So there were a lot. There's like a lot of foliage everywhere. And we got a little sidetracked and we're not sidetracked, we got a little lost. Let's just be real. In the talus up there. There's a talus area up there that if you get lost in between a see I'm gonna botch all of these names now. Nevermind, you can get lost up there and there's talus. But you have to be really careful because the talus is unstable. And there's also like trees and bushes growing in between. So like basically your bushwhacking while you're on unstable talus with a crash pad on. So your wits have to be about you. My wits were about me. And then I got to the base of the talus field. - 26 - And it was like flat ground and there was this flat rock that was truly a flat rock. I was like, "Oh, that's like the grandma rock. You know, it's been there forever." And I stepped down about it was maybe like a foot off of what was the unstable talus and this grandma flat rock was a hole actually. It was a booby trap that flipped. Like the flat rock flipped and became a hole with a lot of other rocks down in the hole. So my leg went into the hole and navigated around all these other rocks and everything like popped up here. Crack, crack, crack. It was like crooked and then it just exploded right there. Like my knee got so big. And I knew as a physical therapist, I was like this thing, if what I think just happened happened, I need to get out right now before I can't stand. And so I actually hiked out with my crash pad very slowly and carefully. But I made it. And yes, I tore my ACL. I actually also tore my lateral meniscus just a little bit at that time. But yeah, the MRI didn't really, it was not super, it actually looked like my ACL was still attached, which when we went in and did the surgery, it was so mangled that it was actually like almost like some little critter had crawling, like, up into my knee and made a nest. So it was like pretty thick, but the MRI caught that as like it being like a continuous piece. But no, it was a total mess. So I didn't have surgery for a couple years, but that's a whole other side. So be careful when you're walking, especially when it looks to be easy. Booby traps! Rock climbing in Little Cottonwood. So Surprise is on the Riverside Boulder. And actually the second climb I ever climbed in Little Cottonwood, which was in August of like 2005 or something for was Jim. There were bunnies down there. Actually, when we went to walk down there were like these three domesticated bunnies. A massive so you play with bunnies, and then you climb Jim. Anyway, so Jim is on there, Bronson Arete, Feck is on the same boulder. It took me a long time to figure out my shorty beta, for the beginning of Surprise, like I actually worked on that climb thinking that I would never do it. I don't know why. Maybe it just spoke to me. But I had to do this weird, like cross move to get onto the arete and then to get out onto the face. It was an is an interesting beta. It worked really well once I figured it out. And I could just keep firing it and I would get to the top hold of Surprise pretty consistently. And finally, my friend Sam Tingey came into town and he was like, "Well you should just head-point it." And I was like, "What is head-pointing?" And so he taught me how to set up an anchor. So I would climb the backside to the left of Feck and then attach the anchor to the tree. There's are really easy hold still the left side effect your. Tallie is looking at me with curiosity? Tallie Casucci 18:00 Yeah, you're talking Bronson then? Not Surprise? Carrie Cooper 18:03 No. So you start so Bronson Arete. Tallie Casucci 18:08 Surprise is on the different boulder. Carrie Cooper 18:09 Not Surprise. Oh, it's Shivers! Oh jeez, Carrie. Tallie Casucci 18:23 Okay, you're just describing a boulder. - 27 - Carrie Cooper 18:25 That's not there. Tallie Casucci 18:28 No wonder the cross. Yes! Carrie Cooper 18:29 Okay, Shivers. Tallie Casucci 18:31 Yeah, the cross makes sense now. Ok, continue! Carrie Cooper 18:33 Great! This is why I'm not a guide in Little Cottonwood. Shivers! Crud, do I need to retell this entire story now? Okay, Tallie Casucci 18:47 No, you're trying Shivers. Carrie Cooper 18:49 Okay, so I was working on Shivers and I figured out my beta for the bottom. And I was stuck at that big hold right before the lip, where I was like getting there can like pretty. Like I could almost do it every single try. And then Sam Tingey was like "you should head point it and figure out the top." And he taught me how to set up the anchor. And so you go up, just left of Feck and then you set it up on the tree. And then you can just like, go down it. But there was this guy there that I had never met before. And he was just sitting there heckling me the whole time as I'm trying to figure out the top of this climb. He was like, "Oh, you know, nobody puts their hand there or you're not wearing your harness right." Or just ridiculous things. And at first I was like, "Is this guy serious?" And he was totally serious. And I was so mad that someone was just giving me so much much flak, while I was trying to do something that was highly mentally difficult for me because I actually don't really trust harnesses and ropes as much as I do my crash pad on my spotters, I just don't have as much experience and like consistent experience with it. So it was already me out of my comfort zone, let alone trying to get myself in a headspace where I was going to be able to do that section of the climb. After all of that, you know. But that day, I figured out my beta, I had it, I like had it pretty well down, I could start at that really good hold, and finish it all the way to the top without actually taking up rope. So it would have been a really crappy fall, had I actually fallen after I, you know, figured it all out. But, so I was like, I really want to try this today. But I am, I was so livid, actually, that I came down from the rope. And I just marched off into the woods, like, I was steaming mad. And who comes walking up the trail, but Davy Jones and Justin Wood. And I was like, to the point of almost tears when I saw them, like, I just gave them both hugs. I told him the whole story. And Justin was like, "We're going with you right now. And you're gonna send that thing! And I'm spotting you." And I was like, "Yeah!" You know, I just had the most amazing friends. So we walk up, you set the pads, Justin a spotting partially downhill. Well I actually have a picture of this, that Davy took. And I get through the bottom part, I get to the big hold and then I compose myself and I can - 28 - hear this guy over on side, just doing his thing. And it got in my head a little bit. But I got onto the top slab, which is probably, it's at least 10 feet. Tallie Casucci 22:19 Yeah. Carrie Cooper 22:20 Do you think it's more? Tallie Casucci 22:22 Probably not. The ground slopes though, it's not a great situation. Carrie Cooper 22:28 It's not a good landing. It's like a tiered landing. And I get up there, I put my foot up onto the slab, and I start to rock over. And something in my brain stopped working. And I switched my beta, which, you know, I have rules now. You don't ever switch your beta on a high ball. But I was essentially on the very last hold and my foot popped. And I plummeted. I just flew off of this thing. And Justin caught me, I landed like with my torso, on the crash pad and the rest of my body like down the hill. And I haven't been on it since. [laughs] I lived. So I think sometimes when you receive that kind of negative, that kind of negative vibe can sometimes create a situation of success that you didn't think you had in you. Like it revs you up and you can push yourself to places you didn't think you had. And you but I think it can also be highly detrimental. And I don't know if that was the experience, but that definitely started something me that I don't really climb with people that I don't have good vibes around. I just don't. I think I have too much PTSD. I know that's not the right term. That's not like a proper thing to say. But I think that stuff sits with you. So good vibes only. Do you want to go back to that one? You know, it's funny now that I'm telling the tale. I'm 44 years old, and a fall from that height, could maybe end, Like I have a lot of back injuries. I've got three herniated discs that are currently always going to be herniated in my back. Each one of those levels I have a set joint arthropathy. So it's like kind of narrowing down on the nerves. And I have spinal stenosis, which means that my spine is actually like growing bone inward towards my spinal cord, I think it will be a very poor decision for me to go back to that climb. So unfortunately, that one kind of goes off the list. Even though could I do it? Yes. Yes, I can do that claim. Should I do it? No. Tallie Casucci 25:22 Have you considered Carrie Cooper 25:26 Surgery? No! [laughs] Tallie Casucci 25:31 the top-rope ascent of boulders? Carrie Cooper 25:34 Yes, absolutely. So I, Tommy Caldwell is not a Utah climber, but everybody knows him. And I was climbing with him in Fontainebleau, and he blew his achilles. And he actually blew it like three times - 29 - now. And so he's been doing high balls on a rope, and I was chatting with him about that. And it's okay to do that. Like, it's not like you can, at a certain point in time, you've got to be okay with just the experience. It can't be all about the achievement or ascent as it looks in one specific genre or way. And I love bouldering and landing from bouldering is a consequence of bouldering. But I love just bouldering. And if bouldering on a rope is what I need to do. Fine. I'm totally fine with it. I love that idea actually. I love boulders and I cannot tell you why I wouldn't want to go sport climbing. Like why? If you can't do high ball boulders, why don't you just start sport climbing? I've had so many people tell me that? Or asked me that? "I don't know, man. I just like bouldering. I don't know what it is. It's short." There's not a lot of gear. I don't know what it is. But yeah, that is totally an option at this point. And there are boulders that I would like to do on a top rope, like Big Baby Jesus, for example. Tallie Casucci 27:11 Same! Carrie Cooper 27:13 Let's go! I think that'd be great one. There are a few others. Tallie Casucci 27:19 Ready to Die. Carrie Cooper 27:20 Ready to Die is so hard. I looked at that the other day, actually, I ran into it. And I was like, "Wow, Ready to Die would be a really good one." Yeah. There are climbs that are high balls that I for real can't reach the holds. That I don't know that being on like, Babe, I literally cannot reach the holds. So that's not one. That's one that sort of, I'm waiting for Portia to do that one and make me change my mind. Tallie Casucci 27:55 Come on Portia! Carrie Cooper 27:55 Portia, hint, hint. [laughs] But yeah, I like right now. I love the zero star, low ball. I love those. I seek them out. Tallie Casucci 28:13 Since you are a shorter climber, I want to ask about the decision making process for when you decide, "you know what I'm gonna let this one go. Wait till Portia does it and find some shorty beta that maybe I can steal?" How do you make that decision when, especially if something's like, potentially, there's like a glimmer of hope versus the gradient there. Does that make sense? Carrie Cooper 28:48 Absolutely. I think the climb that comes to mind right now is Breaking Dawn. It's on the Copperhead boulder. And it's to the right a copper head to the left of Lance's [Dihedral] and I supported Cheryl through her send of that one. And she came up with some really incredible beta. Unfortunately, I cannot reach those feet that make the beta better. So right now I have a choice. Like continue to really like wait - 30 - for the right temps in order to just bear down as hard as I can, on some almost not even existent holds to basically almost campus part of it or try to stick with the approved sequence which is so improbable and not as fun to me. So both of those options are not that fun. But option A, Cheryl's beta, could be fun given the right temperature. I haven't written that went off yet. But I know that there is no way that I am trying it if I can feel certain things. Left crimp, for example, because she bumps to a left crimp, so she puts her feet really wide on it, and like almost stems. And so it pulls a lot of her body weight so she can hit this razor crimp. Which gets you closer and it actually changes the bottom of the climb a little bit. So the the sequence is totally different. But it makes those moves more reachable. If you get the razor grip. If your feet are unsupported on the razor crimp, it is not a fun day. Hence, how much do I care about it? I don't know. I haven't written it off yet. But I'm not like. So typically with those, I call them, they're like my warmup projects. So I put them at the end of my warm up. Like when I'm totally warm. I don't call it a like, this is the climb I'm here to do, even though it is part of my whole reason for being there. Right? So it's like the end of my warm up. It's the warm up project. And then a lot of times with warm up projects, sometimes they just happen. And it's awesome, because it's a part of a flow. And so you kind of figure out your body learns it, and you're not as serious about it. And you know, it may take years to do that warm up project. But yeah, so that right now is at the end of my quote unquote, warm up at the Secret Garden. Yep. But it is not the reason why I go to Little Cottonwood. Tallie Casucci 29:20 Yeah, there are more enjoyable climbs. Carrie Cooper 32:00 Absolutely. But that one would be pretty spectacular to do. I don't, it's very low percentage, that I'm gonna actually do that one. Yeah. But sometimes things speak to me. And regardless of whether you can do the approved sequence or not, like if it's speaking to you, you're gonna give it your attention. And you give it your curiosity and you like, let it lead you on this journey of discovery. And then sometimes you come up with really cool beta. And sometimes you realize that there's no way you could ever do this in your life. But it's the like, I don't mind just going and hanging out with a boulder problem. It's a nice way to spend a Saturday. Tallie Casucci 32:52 Are there any other boulders that as soon as you saw it just spoke to you and have been wonderful journeys send or not? Carrie Cooper 33:02 So many. I think Alzheimer's is one of those that spoke to me immediately. And I have never done it. I've never been able to do it. I've been out there. I've gotten power spots. I have watched people send it in the summertime. You know, like it's one of those things that like you're gonna go try it no matter what. Tallie Casucci 33:37 It's on the way. Carrie Cooper 33:38 - 31 - It's on the way. Yeah. Alzheimer's. I just can't reach the holds. It's really hard. Yeah. Like I can't reach the right heel. Can't reach the left hand. But I can do the bottom part. So I just do the bottom part. And so it's funny because a lot of times, I think because there are so many climbs that I enjoy doing that are difficult, but I can't actually top them out that I enjoy just doing moves. Like, I'll go out and just do moves. I don't know that that's a normal thing for people to do. And I also don't know that you can just go and do that on a rope. Because you've got to be able to get your rope down. Right? Tallie Casucci 34:30 Yeah, that's what the stick clip is for. You just learn how to stick-clip aide. [laughs] Carrie Cooper 34:33 Oh yeah, I just turned my stick-clip into a stick brush actually, so I've officially signed away my sport climbing-ness. I have sport climbed in Little Cottonwood and I have enjoyed sport climbing in Little Cottonwood. I mean, there are climbs that I haven't. I've gone in project is and Orange Crush with Nik Berry and had a great time. You know, learning how to not warm up and then get on really hard climbs. And those are really fun. I have also trad climbed in Little Cottonwood, it's I'm less inclined to talk about my personal trad climbing a little bit because it is so very little as I am to talk about the people that I have tried climbed with because they are really incredible and the situations were more memorable than the you know than the sends themselves. Like the time that I learned how to place trad gear and to rand smear on Pentapitch with Jeremiah Watts was belaying me and Nik Berry was soloing above me and kind of turning around and talking me through things and helping me with gear placements and then he would solo up a little further. He was not showing off. I want to be clear this, he was not showing off. This was like a group ascent. But he was I think he was mental training for something. I can't remember if this is when he and Madaleine Sorkin went and did something incredible, I can't remember. But I think he was sort of training for that. And so this was just like a casual outing, he's gonna teach his friend how to plug gear. So that was a really incredible experience especially to watch him solo the slab at the top which I don't know what that's called, but I was highly sketched out even following on a rope with gear. I felt like at any point in time something could just pop. And you know I was going to fall but watching him do that it was such a demonstration of mental fortitude and strength and also confidence and movement quality. Just watching him move with such ease up something that for me was very difficult. I think you know of all the climbs I've done or climbed on in Little Cottonwood, that's one that I won't forget watching. I can still remember like the angle of the sun. You know? Yeah. Have you ice climbed in Little Cottonwood? I have never ice climbed. I don't know, I've done pull ups on ice tools. That's the most ice climbing or close to ice climbing I've done Tallie Casucci 38:03 You've done all of the other activities. Carrie Cooper 38:06 I should do the Great White Icicle this winter. Tallie Casucci 38:09 Yeah. - 32 - Carrie Cooper 38:10 Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, just round it out. Tallie Casucci 38:14 Exactly. You could probably do the Great White Icicle and then go down and try Breaking Dawn. It'd probably be perfect conditions. Carrie Cooper 38:22 It probably would actually. It will probably be perfect just reef on that razor blade crimp. So fun. Tallie Casucci 38:39 Are there any other stories from Little Cottonwood that you wanted to share? We hit the ones that we talked about before recording, but are there others? Carrie Cooper 38:50 I think probably one of the most memorable experiences with Sundial. Tallie Casucci 38:57 Yeah. What's special about Sundial? Or memorable? Carrie Cooper 39:01 So the Sundial is a boulder that's kind of it's up. It's up pretty high. So it it in the wintertime. It actually dries out pretty quickly compared to the rest of the canyon, so it was a nice one to go to in the wintertime. And a friend of mine was who is highly prolific with first ascensioning throughout the canyon, Mike Beck, had discovered this climb, cleaned it off, built a landing. I mean, walking up there was such an easy experience. And you know, walking up there with him was so fun, because you would warm up on the way, would chat about things, you know, stem across some ridiculous snow ledge because you climb up to the base of the cliff, and then you go over so the other, there's another trail now that you can take. But at this point in time, the main trail because of all the snow was actually directly straight up to the base of the cliff, and then you traverse over, like a, it's like a slab almost. And then you're right there. So this is like really the most efficient way to get there. And it was really easy to carry crash pads. And so we worked this thing together. And it was, it was just such an awesome climb like it was. When I saw it, I was like, "Wow, this is a beauty!" And, you know, when it comes to doing first ascents, I think it's important to make sure that it's okay with the person who's put the work in that you are going to try this climb. And it's totally up to them to decide how serious they think you are about that. But when they give you the "Okay," that means that you have your permission. And he and I worked this problem together and figured out the beta together, which was really fun. And I actually did, I did the stand, which was not the intended climb, we wanted to start it lower. But that was definitely the most obvious place to start was just to start standing. And then you do the top. What we didn't realize was because we are shorter, the beta that we had to use was quite hard. So the established beta now, which is kind of interesting, that like there's this evolution of what the first ascensionists experience on a climb, and then what becomes the norm of the climb. So for us putting this climb up, the boulder problem, or the really the true meat of the boulder problem was from there's a crimp on the face. And then further back around is a big jug, but we can't, couldn't reach the jug, it was just too far away. And - 33 - so we used this pinch on the arete, which was really, really, really bad. But it's wintertime, and it's sticky. And then from the pinch, you go to this, it's like a slopey slimper That's on the left part of the face slash lip of the climb. And then from there, you can move your foot and go into what is now the hold that people typically just go for. I think, right? Okay. Because I don't experience this, I don't actually know. So that was quite hard. So I did the top out. And then we realized that this thing is possible. I think it's worth noting that if you have a climb that you really want to do, and you want to be the one to do it first, you need to communicate that. And when that doesn't get communicated, if you've worked on something ad nauseam with someone, it's okay for them to try it, unless you say something. Unfortunately, that was not said. And I did not realize the extent to which people hold emotion to certain climbs, and I definitely will never do that again. And I will be much more just forthright about making sure that they communicate their feelings. But anyway, I did the low part. And it became the Sundial and rock climbing is not just it's not just a sport, it's it's a soul sport. And people get a lot of emotional mental therapy from it. And I think if you take that away either from injury or situation, or whatever it is, you really mess with their therapy. And the you know that that includes, you know, my non-send of what I now realize it's not called Surprise. It's called Shivers. You know, it can be in anything and I think as climbers, we have to realize that everybody is experiencing climbs for themselves. And it's okay for other people to experience things in the way that they want to. And just to be supportive of that. So, you know, the things that I'm skirting around right now are all of the negative feelings that sort of came from this FA that sometimes I wish I could just take it back, you know? Just be like, "Here you go, you can have this." But there is a problem, which is now that was put up by Jay Keener and maybe Vic Copeland. I don't know, I'm just throwing it out there. I know, Jay put it up. It's the low low to Sundial, and it's called A Simple Misunderstanding. And it is the story of that boulder problem. So now you know. Tallie Casucci 46:10 I was talking about it a day or so ago with a friend about the like balance of being supportive, but also there's a little bit of a competition in climbing, even if it's not competition climbing World Cup style, Carrie Cooper 46:26 Right. Tallie Casucci 46:27 There's still this, you want to be supportive of your friends outside, but there's also a little bit of this underlying competition, it's people say it's between you and the boulder, but it's Carrie Cooper 46:39 I think healthy competition is really wonderful. You know, I think that my main climbing partner, Cheryl Pirozzi, and I, we talk about this, we talk about how we compete with each other, and how it actually helps us. And how, you know, sometimes, we'll actually talk about the fact that like, "Who's gonna do it first?" Like before it even happens, and just getting it out there is great. It's like, but we are always there to support each other. And it's never a negative thing. Like, I'm not going to put glass in her climbing shoes, you know? I truly and genuinely want to see her do this problem. But I also want to do this problem. And, you know, I think that part of that is just being aware of how your personality and how your climbing style, like affects the person that you're climbing and vice versa. And sometimes you got - 34 - to talk things out, and it's okay. Sometimes I just turned to people and I'm like, "Wow! I'm being a little aggressive here. I really want to see you do this!" Like, because it's so fun. Climbing is above all things, it should be fun. Tallie Casucci 48:11 Yeah, it's easy to get distracted. Carrie Cooper 48:14 Right? And especially when something is genuinely hard for you. I think I've got like that on lock, because I feel like everything is really hard for me compared to other people. That's why I have this like, hilarious thing that I say in my head, which I'm just like, "Last in line. That's me" you know. But, yeah, when something is frustratingly hard for you, I think those are moments when you have to have a lot more grace with yourself with the people around you. And if people know you, if you're getting to that place of frustration, it's nice to have somebody who's going to like dissipate that tension a little bit with, like a giggle or hug or you know, chocolate bar or your favorite song. You know, sometimes you have to, like sneak up on a boulder problem. Or just change the mental hiccup, you know, I think that's like climbing is very mental sometimes. And we can be our own worst enemies. Yeah. I love this whole, "What can I learn from this climb?" That's my favorite approach right now. It really lightens the mood as you just remind yourself of that. Little lessons. Tallie Casucci 49:54 Yeah. I like that. Anything else you'd like to share? I think we hit on our list. Anything else that you've thought of while talking? Carrie Cooper 50:11 No, I feel like I got to talk about some of the more memorable - positives and negatives. Yeah. Life. Climbing. Injuries. Tallie Casucci 50:23 Friendships. Carrie Cooper 50:24 Friendships. Have you gotten to talk to Jeff Richards yet? Tallie Casucci 50:29 No. Put it on the list. Carrie Cooper 50:35 Okay. Have you talked to Scott Hall? Tallie Casucci 50:40 No, also in the list. Carrie Cooper 50:44 - 35 - Those are two. Talked to Ronnie Jenkins? Tallie Casucci 50:47 On the list. Carrie Cooper 50:49 You got a long list! Thank you for working me into your list. Tallie Casucci 50:55 Of course, no, I appreciate you taking the time to come up for round two of talking about Little Cottonwood. Carrie Cooper 51:03 I can't believe we didn't talk about it before because I know Tallie Casucci 51:06 We touched on it. Carrie Cooper 51:07 But a lot of my climbing has been in Little Cottonwood. Tallie Casucci 51:10 Yeah. Can you maybe briefly talk about the like, how often are you getting out in Little Cottonwood? Because I know you're out there a lot. Carrie Cooper 51:20 Yeah. Well, it's summer right now. And I am a total weenie when it comes to crossing rivers. A lot of people have no pause of doing that. I have a lot of pause. And so at this point in time, if I can't access it, without crossing the river, I'm not going to it. So right now, probably twice a week. But during the season, that is where I climb. I do. There are months of the year that I don't go into the gym at all. And it's just either it's this last year has really not been good in Little. So I've spent a lot of time in the gym, which has made me really strong actually. And I'm thankful for it. But I'm ready to not have that next year. But if that means that we get moisture, it's fine. I can go the gym. But yeah, so Little Cottonwood, typically, I would say on average at least once a week, if not twice. Which is okay. Tallie Casucci 52:32 Yeah, that's awesome. All right. Well, thank you for your time. Carrie Cooper 52:39 Thank you for having me. - 36 -