Glade and Liz Sowards Presentation about the Civilian Conservation Corps

Presentation given about the Civilian Conservation Corps by Glade Sowards and Liz Sowards. Topics include: CCC; The Great Depression; President Franklin Delano Rosevelt; Young men; Work on Public lands in Uintah County; Ashley National Forest; BLM; Hard work; CCC members that married local women and stayed in the Vernal area; Sleeping in tents and flimsy barracks; Perceived threat of the CCC young men brought in from out of state; Smoking and drinking; Attending dances at Imperial Hall; Liquour not being allowed at Imperial Hall; Dating the local girls; Junior Proms and Gold & Green Balls; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; Builiding of an outside pavillion for dances; Glade participation as a band member for the dances; Doc's Beach parties, dances and rollerskating; Glade being challenged to a fight over a girl; The Rod and Gun Club; Development of softball fields with lights; World War II; Formation of the Uintah Recreation Association and develpment of a sports park; Glade's service as on the City Council; Glade's father's start in the petroleum business; Delivering to small/rural communities; Dragon, Utah; Watson, Utah; Rainbow, Utah; Ghost towns; Gilsonite mining; Ute Indians; Bridges across White River; Railroad lines; Trading posts; shops, and stores; Sheep shearing; Jones Hole Fish Hatchery; Glade's son seeing topless young women; Medical doctors in vernal; and a description of the local hospital.

Tape #116 GLADE SOWARDS Speakers: Glade Sowards and Liz Sowards Glade Sowards: We'll talk about the Civilian Conservation Corps, the CCC. During the Depression, Franklin D. Roosevelt established a program of the Civilian Conservation Corps, or the CCCs as we called them. They would bring young men who had no jobs from all over the United States into an area where there were some federal lands and they would work on these lands. Some of the finest projects that were ever done—for instance on the Ashley Forest and the BLM and in the various federal lands in Eastern Utah—were done by the CCCs. I remember the road that went from Vernal to Manila. Some of the finest canyon areas were done by the CCCs and most of it was hand work. Instead of just taking dirt and making a fill, the CCCs would take rocks and fit them in by hand and would make a nice retaining wall and then they would put dirt behind it. Then it was very neat and always made a good, solid road. A place where the mountain would sluff off, they would dig down to some kind of bedrock and then brick it up, generally with rock. I have seen some that was done with old railroad ties and things like this, but generally it was rock that they used. So these boys worked hard. I remember that the local people were frightened because these boys would come in with a different standard of living. A lot of them would smoke and drink and they would come from a different part of the country and they'd be a different religion. So the local people were frightened of them. They thought they would dilute the morals of their locals. There was some justification to their fears, however, many of the boys turned out to be fine boys. For instance, two of the Winder girls married CCC boys. Ruth Winder Robertson married Homer Robertson, who came in with the CCCs. Also, Ada Winder Bush married Walter Bush, who came in with the CCCs. So, a number of men that we have in our community today came in with the Civilian Conservation Corps. I remember that they had a pretty rough lot. They generally lived in tents and they transported them in the back of open trucks. Liz: They lived in tents on the mountains? But down in town they lived in barracks, nght? Glade: Yeah, kind of flimsy barracks. Liz: Down where the fairground... Glade: Yes, down on the fairgrounds. They transported them in open trucks. On several occasions, those trucks tipped over and several of those boys were killed. I remember one wreck, and if my memory serves me correctly, it was on the curve down by the present home of Bill Mayberry, next to the golf course. They were speeding down there and one of the trucks tipped over and killed several of them. Liz: That would have been in the '30s, huh? Glade: Yes. As I recall, there was also an accident where some of them drowned at the Green River. There were a lot of public projects that would have never been built had it not been for the Page A: germs no 5 Py Bg REGGIO ' = ke . meat mie BENE ALE AU ay | fr" pas {0K P OO G2<¢ Ei ~— fy , ii = , ' . } “>. " fr ee EAST — My A ts5 . tag t + fd y Len" 10/0)\, VERNAL, UTAH OFg 078 Qnmor (UJINET 5% ai 1 of 16 Ces. A lot of springs were developed on the mountain, and timber roads built, and very primitive access roads were built by the Civilian Conservation Corps. Liz: Did they build any dams? Glade: No, not to my knowledge. They didn't have the engineering background or equipment to do that. Liz: In the 1939 film [of downtown Vernal], I seem to remember in their barracks down there, they had a little library, and a sort of a lounge. Then they had a little place to buy candy and peanuts and gum. Glade: I can't tell you about that because our parents told us to stay away from the CC boys. We were frightened of them. Liz: So, as a child you were frightened of them. Glade: That's right. I would have been a seven-, eight-year-old boy when they came in. I was frightened of them. They used to come to the dances when my father was managing the Imperial Hall. After I'm through with the CCs, I'll tell you about that. They used to come to the dances and probably the worst problem that he had as a manager of the Imperial Hall was when the CC boys would get drunk. Of course, a lot of these boys were handsome boys and they would want to date the local girls. The local boys resented this, and there would be fights and drinking and what- have-you. That's probably another thing that maybe gave me the idea that there was something wrong with them, because Dad would say, "Well, I had trouble with the CC boys tonight." Liz: So it made you frightened of them. Glade: Right. Liz: Okay, then tell us about the Imperial Hall. Glade: You would have to establish the dates, I can't establish the dates. Of course, I took pictures of the final demolition of the Imperial Hall, I think I have some of the only pictures taken by a non-professional, you remember, of that Imperial going down. The Imperial Hall was a large hall that was owned by the LDS Church. When | was a young boy, there were no large dance facilities in the churches at all. The Second Ward was just as the Golden Age Center is now, without the addition to the north that has the dance floor on it, with no floor. There was no scout house. The Vernal First Ward, it was before their chapel burned and their little recreation hall was very small. Even the gymnasium at the high school was small, but there was a large floor in the Imperial Hall and it was owned by the LDS Church. Liz: They bought it from the Showalters then? Page 2 of 16 Glade: I don't know. You would have to check the history. I have no idea where they got it. Liz: It seems like I remember they bought it somewhere along the line. Glade: Inside the hall, this was, of course, on Vernal Avenue and First South, it ran east and west and on the east end was the stage. That's where the dance band would set up. Then there was a very nice dance floor, it was on coil springs. It was the only spring floor in eastern Utah. It really made a comfortable dancing floor because as you danced, the floor would give and would sway just a little bit with you, so it was easy on your feet. It was not like dancing on concrete. The junior proms, the Gold and Green Balls, everything in the community was held in the Imperial Hall in the way of dances. Liz: How about the graduation or baccalaureate or anything like that? Glade: Not to my knowledge, no, just the dances. Even the dance festivals of the [LDS] church were down there. Now the church had to have a manager of that hall because they had to pay for the dance bands and they had to have control of the patrons, their drinking and people who tried to steal their way in, etc. So my father, for a long number of years during my youth, and this would have been in the 1930s and early '40s, was the manager of the Imperial Hall for the LDS Church. That was his church calling [unpaid position]. Liz: That's what I understood. He didn't get paid for it, it was just a calling. Glade: It was a gratis calling. That was quite a calling because during the summer, they had dances on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and sometimes Saturday, because they had very few picture shows and things then and that was the entertainment. So my father would go down there about 8:30 and open that dance hall. Then, as I recall, Sara Richardson, it seemed to me that she was a long-time ticket taker down there for him. They would take the tickets and manage that thing and deposit the deposits and control the cash and pay the bands. Then it got so that it was not comfortable to dance in that in the summer, it was hot. So they went to the south. They bought a lot, and they went to the south and they built quite, | thought, an attractive rock wall around an area about as big as the Imperial, and made an outdoor pavilion. So then they would open double doors on about three points along the wall and you could dance either inside or out in the summer and that would provide a lot of air, circulation of cool air and then you could be right out under the stars if you wished. So you could host several thousand people at a dance there. Then, as I recall, on one end of that, they had a fireplace. You could have some parties in there. Liz: I don't remember that, which end? It seems like that was up at Doc's beach. Glade: No, I think they also had one down there. Liz: They had a stage there on one end. Page 3 of 16 Glade: At the Imperial? Liz: Yes. Glade: I don't recall the stage, I thought we always played inside when I was playing in the dance band. Liz: What do you mean you played inside? Glade: The dance band always was inside. Liz: I know, but on the stage. They had a stage at one end of it. Glade: Well, I'm talking about that outside pavilion. Liz: Oh, all right. So, you say there was a fireplace outside, I didn't understand the way you said that. Glade: Yeah, yeah, as I recall there was a fireplace outside at the east end, okay. You could have nice affairs that required a fire and what-have-you. Now, I remember that that was really quite a service that my father did. While he didn't serve in a spiritual capacity during those many years, he was still highly thought of by the church and greatly supported because of his activity as the manager of the Imperial Hall. Liz: We just mentioned Doc's Beach. Tell me, that would be interesting about how the teenagers used to go up there and what it was like and everything. Glade: Well, Doc's Beach was a resort at one time. You'd have to check this out, don't take this as the gospel, because it's been so many years. But I believe, I think that Doc Rich, a prominent doctor in Vernal, developed this resort up there. They brought some water around from the Ashley Creek and made kind of a swimming hole and then they had a dance area and a party area. They called it Doc's Beach. We'll have to check that out. Hugh Colton could probably help you. Liz: No, I'll have to do him too. So I've got Sara, Alvin, and Hugh. Glade: Alvin? Liz: Weeks. Glade: I didn't mention Alvin, but that's awfully good, because I think Alvin was the subsequent manager to my father at the Imperial. Is that why you thought of him? Liz: Yes. Page 4 of 16 Glade: All right. Doc's Beach was a little rougher beach to dance because it was out of town and it seems to me that they sold beer up there, so you could have beer. Of course, there was no liquor allowed at the Imperial Hall. You know, my father was quite fearless because he would have to go and take that liquor away from a lot of those drunks. He always handled it quite well. But up at Doc's Beach, nobody took the liquor away, they consumed it. I remember up at Doc's Beach, when I played in the dance band, that we were playing one night and all of a sudden, it was just like an earthquake. The stand that we were sitting on just moved about six feet right out into the middle of the floor. We were still intact, we were still playing, but what had happened is that someone had gone out and gotten in their car and thought they had it in reverse and they had it in low and they went forward and came into the stage and just pushed it right out into the middle of the floor. You know, came right through the wall. There was a lot of good times had at Doc's Beach. When I was probably in the 8th or 9th grade, they first introduced rubber-wheeled roller skates into the area. They had roller skating at Doc's Beach. They tried roller skating at Imperial Hall, too, at one time, but it didn't seem to be as popular down there as it did up at Doc's Beach. I remember that I really enjoyed going to Doc's Beach roller skating and that at the roller skating parties, of course, there was no liquor. I remember that when I used to go with Beverly, that I really loved to go up there because the Siddoway girls were good skaters and they all three would go up and I would go. | can't remember how I got up there, because I couldn't drive. Liz: Did Tess take you, maybe? Glade: No. Somehow I got up there and would skate with Beverly. Liz: Maybe she can remember. Glade: Beverly is a good girl. You tell Beverly that I just think she's all right. You know, she's probably the least attractive of the three girls, but she was the greatest, I think, of the three Of course, that's typical of me. I generally could pick the finest girls. I picked quality. Dorothy, I think could have had some real quality, but Dorothy was such a pretty girl that she just had attention all the time. I don't think there was a more beautiful girl in the world than Dorothy Siddoway. Just a beautiful, beautiful girl. During my growing-up, I associated with those girls a lot, but I know that Bev and I had a lot of fun roller skating. Used to go roller skating and a boy and girl would join hands and skate together like you, well, it was an open stance, it wasn't like a dance deal, but that was part of ... well, you'd cross hands, okay, hold both hands, cross them and skate. A lot of fun. I just happened to think about that. It's funny how your memory, you go back and think about Doc's Beach. In fact, I was challenged to fight at Doc's Beach over Beverly Siddoway. Max Woolley and a bunch of them came up there. Max liked Beverly and offered me to come out and fight. I said, “Hey, friend, no use me fighting you because she likes me and she doesn't you.” She told him so, to get lost. Now what shall we talk about? Liz: How did the Rod and Gun Club take over Doc's Beach? Then, I know the Chamber of Page 5 of 16 Commerce used it for their annual meetings. Glade: They just used it because the Rod and Gun Club had it. I think that the Rod and Gun Club probably bought it. I think that it got into probably quite a deplorable state of repair. I don't know who held the title to it. I remember that Frank Carroll owned it once. I don't know who sold it to the gun club, but it made an excellent gun club because their shooting range and everything could be hidden up there in those hills without danger to people. Then the archery range could be placed around it. Then, of course, they used the facility for money raisers. The only reason the Chamber uses it, it's just an outdoor place. We just don't really have a lot of nice outdoor places any more to have a nice Chamber party. I guess you could have them at the pavilions, but it's a little more private at a place like that. Liz: I wanted you to tell about the development of the ball park and about getting the lights, how you got the lights and different things. I remember when I first came to Vernal, they were playing softball in a mud field up where the junior high, probably the gym, 1s. Glade: Right in that vicinity, yes. Liz: There were, I think, a few lights and a lot of dust and alfalfa growing around, but there wasn't any nice ball facility. Glade: For a number of years in Vernal, the prime summer recreation was fast-pitch softball. This would have started about 1945, right in this area. Teams were formed and they would play teams from other communities. They'd play different teams in our community. It was centered around people that could throw the ball fast. It was rather interesting, Hugh Caldwell was one of the good fast pitchers. The other day up at Dutch John up at church, Hugh had Jep Oakes as his guest. Jep Oakes was another very good fast-pitch pitcher. Liz: What's Jep's real name? Glade: I don't know. He doesn't live in Vernal, but he was visiting Hugh. I think what happened is a lot of these boys went in the service in World War II and they were in bases all over the world with nothing to do. It doesn't take very much in the way of equipment to set up in the business of playing softball. They'd just take a field, if it was fairly flat, and put some bases on it and they'd have a ball and a couple of bats and you're in business. So they started playing softball in Vernal. The first field that they used was down at Central School. They played down there for two or three years that I remember. It was just on a dirt field, it was actually over in the southwest corner of the Central School complex. At that time, it was about like it is now, I guess. They did have enough space there for a ball diamond and that's where they played. Then they moved up, the high school and the junior high were all one. When you went to Uintah High School, you started there in the seventh grade. There was a north building, which was the old building, that was junior high, and the south building was the senior high and the seminary was across the street. It's the one that’s the junior high seminary now. The football field was about where the Page 6 of 16 auditorium and the regular classrooms are in the high school right now. Liz: Wait, you mean the junior high? Glade: Yeah, did I say the high school? The junior high, yeah, the auditorium and classrooms of the junior high. Then about where the present junior high football field is, and the gymnasium and to the south there, they developed some ballparks. The LDS Church, I think, owned one of them, and I think the Vernal Jaycees developed the other one. One was the church park and one was the Jaycees’ park. As I recall, for some time the Jaycees’ park was the only lighted one. I'd have to think about whether they ever lighted the church park, it might have been just a daylight park. Liz: I know there were lights there once, because Keith Adams ran into a post and broke his teeth out, but I don't whether that was on the church or the Jaycees’. Glade: I don't either, but I think the church ultimately lit theirs, and the Jaycee park was then the more poorly lit of the two. At any rate, there were two parks up there. Originally one and then two. They were just out in the dirt. There would be some grass that would grow and they would mow that grass, so out in the outfield you would probably have a little grass, but the infield was very deep dust. I remember sliding into those bases and there'd by six inches of dust. Then we got the Little League mania came to town. They moved further east and they developed a couple of Little League parks, oh, out about where the shops are and everything behind the junior high now. So it became desirable to have a sports complex. There was a unique union formed, the Uintah Recreation Association. It was composed of governmental units, Vernal City, Uintah County, Uintah School District, and the LDS Church. Liz: That took quite a bit of doing to get those all together, as I remember. It was one of the smartest and best things our community did as far as sports were concerned and unity, getting something accomplished. Glade: That's right, and I was right in the middle of that. I helped organize a lot of that. Just before I got into the city council, Vernal City bought the property north of the high school [then located at 161 N. 1000 W.], I believe fifteen acres, and designated it for a new city park and their ball complex. As you eye-balled that thing, you just thought it was the greatest thing in the world that you could run a grader on it and it would just be smooth and you could plant grass. But when we got into it, the administration of, let's see, Les Miracle, mayor, Stu Ashton, Av Kay, Dan Price, Rod Ross, I think probably, who was another councilman there? At any rate, they got the thing started, but then [needed] to develop the thing. It was two years later when I ran for the city council and I became the head of the recreation department and it became my baby. We found out that you couldn't just grade those things off, but you'd have to terrace them. That was just a Herculean job because literally hundreds of tons of dirt had to be moved and terraced. Liz: How'd you get that done? Page 7 of 16 Glade: The Strong Company came into Vernal one summer. They had the contract to build the Dinosaur Park road. This would be Don Strong's father. Their superintendent would be probably Don's brother-in-law, Grant Richens. Liz: This was the park road that went from the Monument in Dinosaur into the Steamboat Rock and all that? Glade: Right. So they moved into Vernal and they couldn't get on the mountain. It was too wet. So they came down to the plant and asked if they could park that equipment at our plant. We told them they could. We got the idea, they had those big double cans, we got the idea that if we could use those cans for a couple of weeks that we could terrace that. We asked them, we said, “If we furnish the diesel fuel.” Liz: Was this just Sowards, or was it the city that furnished the diesel? Glade: Well, Sowards furnished the diesel. But just talking about the community, “If we furnished the diesel fuel and paid your drivers, would you let that equipment be used for those ball parks?” And they said, ““You betcha.” So, I'm relatively certain that I furnished the fuel for that and that Uintah Recreation paid those drivers, the operators. If you remember, they went in there and they really tore it up, they did in about a week what it would have taken us a month of Sundays. We just never would have gotten it done. Liz: Did they have Ukes, is that what they called them? Glade: Yeah, they were double, they weren't just the single scrapers, but the big double scrapers. My, were they good. They terraced those parks and we made then, in the initial effort, a professional baseball/football field combination, a Pony League baseball and two Little League baseballs, a professional horseshoe setup, where they have had the state horseshoe leagues since, tennis courts, lighted tennis courts, and then, of course, the city park with the lovely Margaret Colton Pavilion. Liz: I remember you had quite a time on the restrooms. Glade: Yes. The restrooms were very expensive. You'd think, just to build some restrooms, that they wouldn’t be very much problem, but you had to bring that water in for such a long distance and the sewer. Then we used prison-type facilities so that you couldn't break off the handles and everything. They just consisted of a button that went into the wall, couldn't get ahold of anything to break it. They were very nice restrooms. Then we faced the problem of lighting a big park. So, they had lighted the Flaming Gorge Dam with mercury vapor lights. Liz: Was that the Arch Dam Constructors? Glade: Yes, Arch Dam Constructors, which was a construction conglomerate consisting of Peter T. Whit and Sons, Coker Construction, and Morrison Knudsen. When they got through with that Page 8 of 16 dam, they were going to sell all of those transformers and all of those lights to a scrap dealer or whatever, so we went up and told them that we surely needed them for that ball park. As I recall, we bought the whole kit and caboodle for $3,000. Liz: Just a very small sum, wasn't it? Then I'm sure that Utah Power and Light, through this time, gave you a lot of help. How did you get the posts up? I remember there was community effort on putting up those big telephone poles. Glade: First of all, Bill Sweeney got those poles out for us, the forest. Liz: So he was Sweeney Construction? Glade: Well, Great Lake Timber. I don't know whether Bill got them or whether he traded another company for the poles, but he got them for us. Liz: Were they donated? Glade: Donated, yes. Both Utah Power and Moon Lake Electric furnished their augers and their cherry pickers and all of their technical equipment and their men. The men, of course, worked free of charge and that whole thing was put up free of charge. Liz: It seems to me like maybe Al Tassainer and Lamond Tullis and some of the local electricians helped also. Glade: You bet. Al Tassainer was very prominent in that. Lamond Tullis helped with it. Then each of the civic clubs took a project and one civic club would take the back stops and another civic club would take the benches, the bleachers. Liz: I think the Lady Lions did a drinking fountain. Glade: Yes, that still is one of the premier sports centers in Utah. Liz: I don't think I've seen too many nicer other than that one. Where were we when Jamie played? Glade: Sandy. Liz: Sandy, they have a lovely one, Sandy, Utah. Then, of course, the city planted trees, it seems like, right after that, right about the time you left there, they were planting the trees. Glade: We planted the trees when I was there. In fact, the only federal money that we got was used to build sidewalks and landscape. The rest of that was all contributed. Then these federal programs came in and they said, “Well, if you can show so much local effort, then the federal government would help.” They got federal funds to build sidewalks and... Page 9 of 16 Liz: The parking, remember that, because it had that middle island and they made you plant it with trees, or something because you had to have so many trees in it. Glade: I remember that I was just so devastated once when somebody's cows got in there and tromped the lawn and ate the trees. Do you remember that? That was kind of my project, if you'll remember. Liz: I remember you were always going out. Even though people were willing to help on projects, if someone doesn't take the lead and organize it and get it done, then a community can't accomplish as much. You were going to tell me one day all about, I thought, going out toward Dragon and Watson, or did we talk about that once? Glade: No, I don't think so. Well, my father started into the petroleum business in 1921, eight years before I was born. So when I came along, I used to get to ride with him and go over on deliveries. He based a lot of his business in the small communities, the rural communities, out in the Basin. Some of them that I remember were these. The Uintah Railway built a railroad from Mack, Colorado, over Baxter Pass, down to Dragon, Utah. Then it branched off and went to Watson and Rainbow. The purpose of this rail was to haul the Gilsonite out. Those names, Dragon and Watson and some of those, came from those mines that were there. However, after the Meeker Massacre, the Ute Indians were driven from their lush valleys of western Colorado. The valleys near Montrose and Delta and Ouray, those lovely valleys, they were driven like cattle and relocated in those desolate old plains over around Dragon and Watson and that area. So there were a lot of Indians out there. Not only did those stores at Dragon and Watson accommodate the mining interest, but they also served as Indian trading posts. I believe that I have been to both Dragon and Watson when the stores were open. But in my youth I believe that Dragon was closed, then we just went to Watson. As I recall, Doer Finnigan ran the store at Watson. That was desolate old country. In a tank truck, to take a load of gas from Vernal to Dragon or Watson and a round trip and come back, was almost a full day. You went from Vernal to Bonanza, you went down a wagon hound. A wagon hound was just no more that a big wash that went off from the plateau, the Big Bonanza is situated on. Liz: ve been on that. Glade: Down into the White River. If you weren't careful, you'd get caught in that wash in a flash flood, and it was mean. Nobody thought very much of it in recent years until they were building the huge, new, high level bridge to go out to White River Oil Shale and a lot of those construction people got caught in there and nearly drown, just in recent years. Liz: I remember that. Glade: Several pickups were washed right down into the river. At any rate, you'd go down a wagon hound, then there were a series of bridges. Most of the time, the bridges were never heavy Page 10 of 16 enough to support a loaded gasoline truck, and you'd have to ford the river. By the time that I started driving, there was a lot of oil activity out there. It was really frightening to go down there and have to ford the White River at night because the river ran so dirty and muddy, it was just very riley, and if you approach it at night, you could never tell how deep it was, because you couldn't see into it and it was so dirty you wouldn't know whether it was two-and-a-half foot deep, which was fordable, or five-foot deep, which would stall your truck and drown you. It always frightened me to bail off into that nver, because what would happen, you'd get a big storm upriver and, of course, you'd have all of those washes empty into that thing, and that river would start to run full and you could get into real trouble. So that's one of the hazards, you'd have to ford the White. Then another thing, you went down to Evacuation Creek, and Evacuation Creek also had a flimsy bridge across it, but trucks generally had to ford it also. That was generally not a problem unless it was in flood. You always had to be careful at Evacuation Creek that you didn't get stuck in the bottom and then get caught in a flash flood. It was a rough country. Very interesting, I started as a little boy, went down with my dad and then | remember the time when my brother, Ken, made one of his first trips down there, and Mother was frightened to let him go alone so she went with him. I'll tell you, we got lost. Liz: You went with them also? Glade: Yeah, we had to go. I think we first went to Watson, then we had to come back and go to Rangely. We went across the cutoff road over by Rabbit Mountain. I remember that Mother was having a lot of neuritis and neuralgia and rheumatism and everything anyway, and a lot of trouble with her neck and head and Ken was a rough teenager and he would get going too fast and hit a bump and throw her up and hit her head on the cab of the truck and she'd cry. I'd cry because Mother was crying. It's kind of funny. We see the hassle, and really, you know, everybody went down to Libby's tonight with the idea of a big hassle and there wasn't any hassle. You know what I mean? You and Paula and I were really... Liz: We were worried that she'd be upset. Glade: Yeah, and everything was beautiful! But at any rate, | remember a lot of those hassles, but I remember that trip. We went to Watson, then back to that cutoff. You came back to the county corral and cut off and went to Rangely along the south side of the White River. Liz: That's where they used to shear the sheep there, at the counting corral. Glade: That' right. There's a cutoff that goes over to Rangely, but it's very crude, that's where we got lost. Liz: I suppose the trading post, or the store, looked about like the one, say, at Randlett? Glade: Yes. Now, really, I, my recollection of them, all of those old stores were just about like the Randlett store. If you'll remember the Randlett store, it was pretty typical. The Randlett Page 11 of 16 store... Liz: Had everything from soup to nuts. I always liked how they had the clothes hanging around, the shoes and the food and the knick-knacks. Glade: Yeah. We had the Dragon and the Watson stores that we served that were Indian outposts. Then we had the Ouray store. That was the... Liz: Bartholomews’? Glade: That was way late. Liz: Tell me the chain of ownership as you remember. Currys probably had it at one time, didn't they? Glade: Yes. The first one that I dealt with that I can remember was Stan Nebeker. Stan had it when I was a little boy. Liz: He had it for a long time, didn't he? Glade: No, excuse me. I'm wrong. Austin Wardle had it, then Stan Nebeker, okay. Liz: Was Austin related to Lowell and the boys? Glade: I don't know. You should get Austin’s wife and interview her. You know Hazel? You remember Hazel. She had the book on the Indian language. Liz: Is she the one that gave you the red book, the little book that told how to say the words? Glade: Yes. On the Ute language, yes. You ought to get Hazel on this, she's got a house down by Pelican Lake. She would be very interesting. She was down at the dam dedication the other day. So remember Hazel Wardle. Yes, Austin Wardle, then Stan Nebeker, then I think, probably, was it then Roy Bartholomew, then maybe Kay Winn? Not Kay Winn, was it Kay Winn? I'll have to think about it. At any rate, that was kind of the outpost that guarded the Hill Creek Indian territory. Then, of course, we came to Randlett, that was one, then we had Wong C. Wing, the Chinaman who had the trading post at Fort Duchesne, we took care of him for years. His store was on the other side of the river from the fort. I think it was purposeful. I think, well, at that time, I don't think they'd let any commercial ventures be close to the fort. Wong C. Wing had, his was across the river. Do you know where that pizza deal is that always says it is for sale, kind of a funny-looking deal? Liz: Yes, Sam's or ... Glade: Whatever, up there on the right. There's a road, it was down that road. That's where the Page 12 of 16 first Wong C. Wing's was. Then he moved up on the highway where Brotherson’s is now. Then he moved to Vernal. Liz: That was where Ashton's men's clothes 1s. Glade: Yeah, it was called Wing's. Liz: That was there still in 1951 when I came, '52. Glade: Then we went up to Whiterocks, and Robert Marimon had the Whiterocks Trading Post, Robert Marimon, and that was really an Indian place. It was always dark and low ceilings, I recall, and dark in there and the Indians would just be crowded in there, especially in the winter. There was always an odor, not from the Indians, but from fire. The Indians had been around fires and you could smell the campfires on their clothing. It's funny, I can almost smell it now. Liz: Would it smell too like deer hide, wet deer hide? Glade: No, you could smell leather that had been near fire. Liz: Were you kind of frightened to go in there or was it exciting? Glade: I think it frightened me a little bit. Some of the Indians were as playful as some of the whites. They'd grab you, you know. It'd scare you. Then we also had accounts at Tridell and Lapoint. There was some Indian activity at Rangely, too, at the Fred Nickels store. So we just had the whole Basin circled. We took care of all of those Indian trading posts, which I guess in itself is kind of interesting. Now, what do you want to talk about? Liz: Tell me about the Jones Hole Fish Hatchery. I don't know if you know anything specific about it or not, but it hasn't always been there, has it? Glade: No. Jones Hole is an interesting waterway in that it's only about five miles long and it just pops out of the side of the mountain, out of the floor of the canyon, and flows just such a few miles and then right into the Green. It's always been an excellent fishery because the water temperature is just perfect for year-round for trout. So even if they didn't stock the creek with trout, it would replenish itself from the Green River. Especially the big brown trout would swim up from the Green and establish themselves in that Jones Hole Creek. Consequently, Jones Hole Creek had tremendous big brown trout in it even when they're not planted. Now one of the unique stories that I can remember about this was when Bert Carroll went down the Green with the Hatches and they stopped, as they generally do, with the confluence of the Jones Hole Creek and Burt caught this large seven-pound trout. Hatches said, “Well now, look, we've either got to eat that or you've got to throw it back because you can't take any fish out. We're committed not to take any fish out.” Burt says, “Well now, look, I've never had a fish like this, this size in my life. We're not going to eat it and I'm not going to throw it back.” So he Page 13 of 16 brought it home and, of course, he showed it to all of us, and it was just a beautiful fish, just about the size of that one of Scott's. Well, the Fish and Game learned about it and so they raided his place, but he was tipped off or something and he started moving that fish around. | know it spent some time in my cooler and some time in Kent's cooler, and they never did find the fish. But it was funny. It was a beautiful big fish. Then, of course, our own son, Scotty, caught the big nine-pound trout at Jones Hole Creek. A classic story of Scotty was when the eastern river runners came. He was intently fishing in one of the fish holes, Jones Hole Creek, and two young ladies came up with no clothing on from the waist up. They said, “Hi!” He said, ““Hi’”’, they walked off, so he continued to fish. About an hour later they came back down the creek. He thought by that time they'd have their clothing on, but they didn't, again they said, “Hi!” and again he said, “Hi!” Liz: He was embarrassed, though. Glade: He was very embarrassed, couldn't wait to get home and tell his mother and father what he'd seen on Jones Hole Creek along with the big fish. Now, let’s talk about the doctors that I knew in Vernal. Dr. Rich was the doctor when I was young and growing up that Mother went to. Now, Dr. Eskelson was also practicing and a lot of people just loved Dr. Eskelson. Dr. Eskelson was very nervous and shook when he concentrated. I got a big splinter under my fingernail once, and I went down to get it out. He had to hold his one hand with the other one so he could get the forceps to cut down and get that big splinter out. Liz: Was that when he was older or did he shake all his life? Glade: Well, I think he always was a little this way. I think there were some suspected that maybe he used drugs or liquor or whatever. Liz: Now, someone told me he built a house right beside the hospital and he had a little archway, or connecting ramp, covered ramp, that went over into the men's ward so that when he got a call he didn't have to go outside, he could just go over into the hospital. Glade: That's true. That's his house that has had a boutique or something in there now and | noticed the house is for sale. [Eskelson’s house was at approximately 220 West Main. | Liz: Tell me what the hospital looked like inside. Glade: It was just very plain. Small rooms. As I recall, the passageway from downstairs up was a ramp so that they could wheel patients up it. I don't believe it was stairs, I think it was a ramp. But they were very tiny rooms. I was in the hospital for approximately a week getting my appendix out. My doctor was Dr. Clark. Liz: John Clark, huh? Page 14 of 16 Glade: John Clark. Then we had another doctor and I'm trying to think of his name. He was our doctor for a number of years. Liz: Dellafield? Glade: No, Dellafield was late. He was very competent. I'll tell you where his offices were: over there in that big house right across from the county building, north. Liz: Francke? Glade: No, Dr. Francke was a doctor, but I really don't remember his practice. Liz: Oh, I know who it might have been. I heard Mrs. Francke tell about it the other day. They used to operate out of the First Security Bank, there was a clinic over the First Security Bank. Glade: That's night. Liz: She said Dr. Francke, and I can't remember that name either, it wasn't Stevens or Williams or... Glade: Now, one of the doctors there about that time was Hegstead. Liz: He was here in '39. Glade: I remember him, but it's funny, I can't remember... It was a doctor with a kind face, heavy set man. Liz: Maybe it'll come back to you. Then this is about where Dr. Spendlove and Dr. Seager came to help Dr. Eskelson right after the war, and then also Bruce Christian and also Dr. Young, Vernon Young, Dr. Mountford, remember Dr. Mountford? Glade: I don't remember him. Liz: He sewed up Sam's eye right there. Then Dr. Stringham came back, Paul Stringham. We have Dr. Allen... Glade: There were two or three crackpots. Liz: Dellafield was one that did a lot of operating, wasn't he? Glade: Uh-huh. Liz: He finally left, then there was the one that charged all the ladies ahead for deliveries, then he skipped town. Page 15 of 16 Glade: One of them that came in that didn't even have a license. Liz: I think he's the one. I think Janet Wallis and Marge Sowards had paid him ahead and then he left town and never delivered their babies, but he had the money for it. Glade: Oh I'll tell ya, Jane Fowler and Herb. Liz: Dr. Jane and Dr. Herb, they were very good. Glade: They were there, but oh, what was the, we had one doctor that was here for years. Liz: Christy? Glade: Now, Christy was a doctor. Christy was back with Rich. Liz: Now, we have the Ashley Medical Center that has the doctors from University of Utah that come out and several specialists move in town. Glade: Now, is it still in operation? Liz: Well, that's the hospital. Glade: Well, I know, but at one time the University was going to have to stop that. Liz: I think they did pull that service out. We just have our regular doctors now. Page 16 of 16