Oral history interview with Shehnaz Kudiya [Transcript and Audio]

Oral history interview by Tiffany Greene and Isra Habib and with Shehnaz Kudiya. Topics include: Growing up in Pakistan, Marriage, Immigrating to the United States, Learning to speak English, Muslim Community, Mosques, Teaching Qurʼan classes, Helping serve lunch, Paying it forward, and Helping others.

Oral Histories of Utah Women from South Asia, North Africa, and the Middle East A Better Days & Utah Muslim Civic League Collaboration Funded, in part, by Oral History Grant 21.01 from Utah Humanities and Utah Division of State History Interviewee(s): Shehnaz Ali Interviewer(s): Tiffany Greene, Isra Habib Date of Interview: 3 February 2022 Place of Interview: Millcreek Library, 2266 E. Evergreen Ave, Millcreek, Utah, 84109 Length of Interview: 1:16:04 Any views, findings, conclusions, or recommendations expressed in this interview do not necessarily represent those of the National Endowment for the Humanities, Utah Humanities, or Utah Division of State History. Shehnaz was born in rural Pakistan, where she spent her childhood exploring orchards in the countryside. After she graduated high school, Shehnaz attended university in Lyallpur and received her bachelor's and master's in psychology. After marrying her husband, Shehnaz lived in Nigeria for a time. Following their return to Pakistan, the escalation of the war caused them to immigrate to America. They ultimately settled in Utah with their young family. Shehnaz became very involved in her children's elementary school and her community. Later, Sehnaz became a special education teacher and helped students with special needs all over Utah. After 9/11, Sehnaz saw a need to educate people on Islam and hosted Sunday school lessons for Muslim children to know what they believed and classes in the community to prevent islamophobia. Shenaz lived her life through serving others and by keeping the mindset of a positive attitude no matter what. Tiffany Greene has lived in Utah her entire life and enjoys visiting new places, spending time outdoors, and studying the past. She graduated from the University of Utah with a Bachelor's Degree in Secondary Education with a History emphasis.Currently, she works as Education Director and Community Engagement Coordinator for Better Days, a Utah nonprofit dedicated to sharing the stories of Utah women. Isra Habib is from Salt Lake City and is now a student at the University of Utah. She is part of the Utah Muslim Civic League and the Muslim Students Association at the University. Tiffany Greene Can you state your name and birthdate and place of birth? Shehnaz Ali My name is Shehnaz. And I was born in 1956. In Pakistan. Tiffany Greene Will you spell your name please, first and last. 1 Shehnaz Ali [0:00:20] S H E H N A Z. Last name is Ali, A L I. Tiffany Greene What is today's date? Shehnaz Ali Today's date is February 3, 2022. Tiffany Greene Do I have permission to record this interview today? Shehnaz Ali Yes. Tiffany Greene And can you tell us the location that we're recording from? Or do you want me to say where we're recording from? Shehnaz Ali I think this is Millcreek Library. Tiffany Greene Yeah. Tell me about what your family life was like growing up as a young person. Shehnaz Ali My childhood was very beautiful. And that's the best part of my entire life. We were very middle class people. My father was a police[man]. He was a man of principle. And I grew up in a very tiny town. And he was the head of the town by then and everybody recognize us. So we were very safe and secure. And he was fond of riding. So because he was not stationed where they were supposed to station--the house was not that big to keep his horses--so we lived in a very rural area with the fields and the plantation and the gardens and the orchard. So I've been running around in the fields, chasing birds and butterflies. So this is what I was growing up. Tiffany Greene What was the name of the town that you grew up in? Shehnaz Ali Its name was Gojra. Tiffany Greene Will you spell that? 2 Shehnaz Ali [0:01:59] G O J R A. It was a small town. And the district was Lyallpur. It was made by Sir John Lyall. He was a governor when the subcontinent India was under the rule of the British. So he made–the whole city is made of the British flag. It's a beautiful city, very industrial. Tiffany Greene Tell me about your family. Shehnaz Ali My parents–I'm the fourth child–we were five siblings. My brother was the older, then sister, then brother and me and my younger sister. Until they passed away recently, we were very close. I'm the only one that survived, and my younger sister. My parents are very loving parents. They loved each other a lot. So I miss them a lot. Yeah, life is like that. Most of my family's passed away. Tiffany Greene When you were younger, what roles did you take on in your family? You said you were on the younger end of your siblings. What did that mean for you and your family life? Shehnaz Ali Because--you know, my older brother and my sister--we took them as our mentor when we were little, me and my sister. My sister was six years older than me. My brother was eight years older than me. My younger [sister] was three years younger. My middle brother, he couldn't make his place with my brother or my sister. So we were like buddies, me and my brother. So we had always all the adventures together. When everybody was asleep in the summertime, we would sneak out and find the little grasshoppers to put in a bottle to feed our chicken. In the summertime, my mother would say, "Keep an eye on these, so they won't go out!" We had so much plantation, so we would enjoy climbing the trees and running around and the land was like Little House on the Prairie. You see, that's my childhood. I was kind of like a doll, we say gudi, and my younger sister was nenhe, the small girl. So they were--all the rules were more strict till my brother--like the three other siblings. Me and my younger sister were just like the other kids. So we were just always give or take away whatever we want. We were spoiled ones. Tiffany Greene Would you like to share the names of your parents and your siblings? Shehnaz Ali My father's name was Namdar. My mother's name was Sahiba, and my brother was Ikbal. They are Persian names. My other sister who passed away, she's Shamim. Then my brother was Ajhaz. I was Shehnaz, and the youngest is Kaser. Tiffany Greene What interests did you have growing up? 3 Shehnaz Ali [0:05:31] I was an artist. I just wanted to see how to knit, how to crochet. My mother was very good in handicrafts, embroidery, put the sequins on our dresses. But, they think I'm a child. She was more focused on my older sister, who had no interest. And she would say, "Okay, get this needle and start embroidering anything." And I wished I was there in her place, [that] she would pay attention to me. So I would just bring the sticks from the broom and make some leftover threads of the yarn and start knitting by myself. And one day she saw me and said, "My poor girl, you are so interested." Then she went and bought the needles, the knitting needles, and one ball of yarn, and she said, "Let me get you to--" I was mostly drawing pictures. I would see the magazines and get the coal from the--you know, that we used to burn the wood--and I would draw all the pictures, the birds and the peacocks and whatever you see on the floor. And my grandmother would be very mad that she had to wash it. And one day my dad saw, I just drew my sister, the youngest. She's standing there and I just drew around her. At that time, the houses had the tiles on the floors and the cement. It was very shiny floor. They don't put rugs or anything. And they mostly washed every day to clean it. And my father said, "Oh, we're just wasting her talent." She bought me the chalks and she said, "Coals are a little bit dirty. Just draw with the chalk, wherever you want." Then I use the walls. I picked the wall and draw. My father said, "Just let her do what she wants. She's my princess." Because I was named after a princess Shehnaz. And my mother loved the wife, the second wife of [the] Shah of Iran--you know Pakistan and Iran had very good connections back then. And the second wife was Soraya. And she was very beautiful. She looked like Vivian Leigh, if you Google it and see the face of her. My father said, "The king, the queen, comes and goes. Why don't you put the name of a princess? She's permanent." So his other daughter from the first wife, who was the sister of [the] King in Egypt, her name was Fawzia. Her daughter was Shehnaz. So I was named after her and he treated me like a princess. Tiffany Greene Did you live with your grandparents? Shehnaz Ali My grandparents would visit us. Most of the time, she would come and she would stay like two months, one month. Over there, visitation of grandparents is just like--we just desire they would come and visit with us. You know? Tiffany Greene What was the community like outside of your family in your town? Shehnaz Ali I don't see any--I think the time has changed or something. When you look back, the people were so trustworthy. Sometimes I used to go to school by myself. I would go through the very danger--in our days, dangerous places, the small areas of the fields. When the sugar canes were so high, [they] were just like mazes. We would run through. I was only scared of the snakes or some kind of animals, but not the people. And if we saw people, we'd just go closer to them so we feel safer. I used to, in the wintertime, go on foot. My school was different, my 4 brother's school were different, everybody's school had different routes. Only summer times we'd go in a horse-driven cart all together because it was hot. But my parents were never worried--I was not--nobody. I know where I'm going. And mostly I was a wandering person. And even when I was young, my mother would say, in the dinner time, "Where is Shehnaz? Check from the neighbors, if she's not here, she must be some--" and I would hide from one neighbor to another, another, another because the roofs were all connected. And we just go from the stairs and then we go climb on the roofs. So that was how my childhood was, you know, it was different. Totally different. I can't imagine now. Tiffany Greene [0:09:41] Tell me about your schooling growing up. Shehnaz Ali My school was pretty far. My sister's high school was like one or two furlongs apart. But I was in a junior primary section. She was in high school. But it was the same school; there was like two parts. When I started was in second grade. We had a round table like this. In the evening, my two brothers and my sister and my dad, they will sit down and they will do their homework. And I will bring my small chair next to them. I just would listen to what they're talking [about]. So I knew what they were talking [about] and it just engraved in my head. So when I go to school, I knew everything. I knew the counting and colors and all those things. Then they put me in school for six months. I didn't like my class fellows. And they were--I didn't like them. I don't know why. But the teacher, when we were in different city, she was this school teacher of my older sister. So she just took me like a pet. She will go, she will hold my hand and she will go around. So she said, "She's so smart. She shouldn't be in this class." I was in like a kindergarten class. She put me in a little bit higher class. And I just went six months and I say, "I don't want to do school." Then there was this admission for the other--that we call them gugidt school, means a modern school. It was better. Expensive. Had a little bit of English classes, too. It was private and my father took me and they took my test and everything. They said, "Well, your daughter is qualified, but she's a little bit younger. Why don't you come in after summer vacation? So, then she will be five years old and we just admit her." I started crying. So, we were just going and my father said, "Why are you crying? My petcha, my child--we will come back. [It will be] holidays, we will enjoy this in there. We will read the books." I said, "No, I just want to go back." And the teacher said, "Why?" He said, "If I change the date of birth, would you admit her?" He said, "There's no problem." They never ask for the birth certificate. He said, "Okay, put instead of November put July 1. Now she's five years old." I got admission. I was happy. Now that date is my official date of birth now. Tiffany Greene What languages did you speak growing up? Shehnaz Ali I was born with Saraiki because we are a tribal system. My ancestors were from Ghazni in Afghanistan. They moved like two, three hundred years ago to the valley of Indus. But then there was no country of Afghanistan and India, Pakistan; these are regions. So we were the 5 region of Ghazni, then came to Punjab region. There was the five waters. So actually the government settled down all those Afghan immigrants to cultivate the land, "And this is yours." So my mother's side and my father's side, they gave us several areas in Sindh, and this is just like a big belt. It has a desert and rivers, and also oasis. It is a very beautiful place. So we ended up in Mianwali, there is a town. You know Imran Khan, the Prime Minister? This is the same area. We are the kins, you know, our tribes are very similar. So we just moved in that area. My father--actually my father's, three grandfathers, they teach us the names of all their grandparents. So you will locate where your dynasty is, where it comes from. So we used to learn "That is who I am." So, that was the area where we were actually belong. It's called--and we have a name--chel , it is the Hebrew word, it means family or tribe. So my tribe is Shabazz-chel. So, I'm from Shabazz-chel Mianwali. And I'm Niazi. The My last name is Niazi. Tiffany Greene 0:14:16] Were there other languages spoken besides that? Shehnaz Ali Pakistan has so many languages. Every 30 miles you go, the accent changes. So we were born with Saraiki, because of that area. Actually, our ancestors lost Pashto, the Ahwahnee language, maybe 100 years after they were--they lost it. They took the local area, that was Saraiki. And some of our tribe they went to India, Hoshiarpur, they speak Urdu. Some, the same tribe, went to Peshawar where they speak Pashto. Some, they go down in the Bahawalpur Bhakkar, they speak Sindhi, and Bahawalpur has their own language. But our blood line is the same. So, in Punjabi where we are settled down, in the town, the other people that speak Punjabi will do the national language. Other studies you need to read Urdu. We speak Urdu, it is just like a defined language--International. And English is compulsory because you have to learn English for the international language. Then we learn Arabic because we read Quran in Arabic. So, we know the alphabet. And Farsi was elective. So, my sister was exposed to six languages. And generally, as a child in school and in that environment, at least four or five languages you're exposed to. Tiffany Greene This is jumping forward in time: have you taught your children those languages? Shehnaz Ali When we came to over here--and actually, my husband is not the same tribe. His parents migrated from East Punjab which is now India, when it was a division, you know, a partition. So, they spoke mostly Urdu. Even though they are from Pehtahn too, they are from--background is Afghanistan. But there they had not any second language. They speak Urdu or Punjabi or Urdu and English. Just one is missing, other than the same thing. Where me and my husband we speak Urdu in house. Our children, they understood Urdu but they started--English was their first language. They are born here. They're raised here. So when we talk to them in Urdu, they give us an answer in English, but a correct one. So they understood. But now they can--if they have to talk, they will do, but they are kind of shy that they might make a mistake within a masculine and feminine. Because in like, what is it--Spanish--some words are female words and 6 some words are male words, you know. So, for the girls it's a different sound and the boys--if you're talking about a boy in English, it is he or she or they--you don't know if "they" are girls or boys--but in Urdu there are. There are some words that you can explain it that we're talking about lots of girls and lots of boys. Tiffany Greene [0:17:33] As you grew older into maybe a teenager, young adult, did you stay in that same town? Shehnaz Ali No. I traveled. My father was in police and they would transfer him for several areas. And my mother, actually, she made my brother finish high school in a small town. This town was a very talented town: lots of our cricket players, and hockey players, and the journalists, and the doctors, and the professors are from that town. And it was a very blessed town with very town---it has railways system, very good, but they put him into a district, that was Lyallpur. So my mother said, "This is the time I have to separate with you." Because there is a saying that police children are always behind [on] their studies because they have moved around a lot. They lose their track. So they built a temporary home in Lyallpur so we can continue our education in the big city. My brother has to [be] admitt[ed] in[to] a degree college in Lyallpur. My sister has to start in ninth grade after middle school. And I was in third grade when I started and my sister was--her friend was the top of the whole region. And when she came she was like a third or fourth in her school. There [in her small town] she was the top in the whole district. So they were just fighting, "Well, this student should be in my school." So we started--until my graduation, my Bachelor's, I stayed in Lyallpur. So, all my education was this much. Then my father passed away. My sister got married, and my other brother went to Dubai for the work. It was my younger sister and myself--my brother was in army by then--so we got a house in the Kent to stay with my brother and my one sister and mother. Over there, then I again went back to complete my college in Lahore. Lahore is the biggest city, if you've heard of it. Over there, I went to the University. I did [a] Master's in Psychology. So there was two years gap between it. Tiffany Greene When did you meet your husband? Shehnaz Ali It was a kind of arranged marriage. And it was not like I was shocked or anything. It was a very normal thing. My sister-in-law, she's a doctor and her friend, her husband got a job in Nigeria. So they moved to Nigeria. In the city they landed in over there, they were looking at where we are, should be fine, and if they see a Pakistani people or something to meet. Right across the street, they said, "There is one boy, he's from Pakistan, and he's working at the high school. He's a teacher in physics and you can go and talk to them." So they became very good friends. He would invite them to come and have a tea, talk politics, whatever. So they really liked him. And they said, "When do you go to Pakistan?" He said, "This time, I'm going to just get married." He said, "Do you have in mind any girl?" "No." He said, "Well, I have a girl. She's my friend's sister-in-law, and just go, this is the address. Write a note to my sister-in-law." And they came to our door. So they came, they met and I figured out the world is so small, his cousin's wives were 7 my teachers. They were all principals now, because I got wonderful teachers in Lyallpur Degree College. It was the third in ranking in whole Punjab--the College for Women. The first principal was before Miss Hill, she was a British lady. And she brought lots of good stuff. And it was excelled kind of college. And then I figured out she looks like one of my philosophy professors. And she says, "Yeah, she's my older sister." So they just the first time they met me, and they made up their mind, and told my mother-in-law, "Auntie, you don't need to go anywhere else. I know this girl. She's my best student." I was the best in philosophy. And first in philosophy when I did my Bachelor's. So I was president too. I was everywhere. And that's college. So everybody knew me. So she says, "The decision is just done." So that's the way. I got married around, maybe one week or 10 days. So they gave me like one month, because he was there for summer from his school. And when we got married after 10 days, or 17 days, he left back to-then I finished my master's. By then, I was doing my master's in psychology, my third semester. So I finished my third semester, then fourth. And then I did not wait for my result or anything. I got my visa and flew to Nigeria. Tiffany Greene [0:23:17] I'm just making sure we're still recording. Before we go on to when you went to Nigeria, I would love to hear more about your college life. Bachelor's and Master's, the school, your friends, your community at college. Shehnaz Ali The Lyallpur College, where we went for my high school and my college, was one building--has just a hedge between. So my sister was six years ahead of me. When I was in sixth grade, she was in fourth year of college. So we will see each other and wave and everything. And so I always have desire, "How can I cross this hedge and go there?" College always fascinated me. So I finished my high school and she finished her Master's. And then she got married. And when I went to college, it was 1971. It was the second war between India and Pakistan, and Bangladesh was created. So there was a kind of-- the start was very sad and depressing. Because when we went, we figured out what happened, you know? And all the stuff we'll be talking about: what happened, the history of all the politicians, what happened, all those conspiracies and everything. So it at the start was very depressing. But I chose my subjects as Fine Arts and political science and philosophy, which I was interested in. My sister wanted me to be going to science block because I did maths at high school with science subjects, but I said, "I don't want to be a doctor." She says, "I want you to be a doctor." I say, "Why didn't you--" Because high school did not have even science subjects. She says, "That was my bad luck in the school I went to." My father just let her go because the principal was so nice. And I just promised her, and I cannot say no, just but, "Whatever the subject is, you will be excelling. Just go." So she went actually half-heartedly to that school. And she didn't send me to that school; I went in a government school, which was the number one school by then. And she said, "If I don't make it, I just want you to be a doctor." I said, "But this is my life." So, she went back and she changed my subjects. I went in my class, and they said, "Your name is not there." I said, "No, I want to be here." Then I went back to the office; I changed back to my subjects. 8 What else? But in the school, it was very nice. I got interested in union as I used to be in high school, then we made an election campaign, we made posters, and we made crowns and all those things. So, that election I did not win but when I participated in lots of debates. In those declamations and other programs, they will let the candidate talk to the people. Sometimes they will boo me; sometimes they clap for me-- whatever. So anyway, when I failed-- I mean I just wasn't elected-- the girl who was elected, she went so down because she was not good in studies at all. She was failing her subjects and this and that. So actually, I was happy that I did not win. So anyway, it was a very nice time. I was young, very active. I had a lot of good relationships with our workers you know, our gardeners and like kind of ladies will come clean our-- we used to wear a black burqa, you know that. So she would take care of me and my things where I keep it. If I have to some things to put in a--she was like my cupboard. "You keep this. I will come and take these books or stuff." Very nice people around me. We will just go play lawn tennis. The marker, who was the person over there, he was a very long time ago in my younger class, my friend's father, so he knew me. So it felt like everything was so familiar. Life was very easy. I never had any crucial time or maybe I got lucky or I just choose something is pleasant. I keep in my head. If it's not, I just let it go. And still I do the same thing. I think that's why I don't feel any--any pain or I mean, there's nothing any drastic in my mind at that time. My college time and my school time. Until I grew up. Tiffany Greene [0:28:36] So when you move to Nigeria, what can you share with me about that chapter of your life? Shehnaz Ali That was a very short time. I got married. I went there. And there was a new world because I actually love people. I just want to see different people, not for the features or their color, their behaviors, their language, their lifestyle, their expressions, their body language--those things interest me more because I had that subject myself, psychology. You just study, just sit down and watch people, and you learn a lot. You don't need to talk to them. Just by watching, this is the best way. And my husband was there for eight years. So he did not learn the language but he could understand, but I wanted to learn the language. So I would keep-- they speak English. The whole Africa speak English. They have their native language, Yoruba, in the south of Nigeria, very coastal area. There's Lagos. You have heard of this. And the state-- by then there were 19 states. Only one state were we living in. Abeokuta was the city. Ogun was the state. There's lots of paganism over there. So Ogun was a pagan god or something. And the North was Muslim states. I think, what was the name of the capital? It just came off my mind now. So we were in the south, and 60 kilometers was the distance of Lagos. And there's so much population that the animals will not survive. Because this place we were living, it was a small state. I still remember the lady's name was Grace, she was Catholic, wonderful woman. Her house and our house were in the same area. There was one house underneath; we were in the second floor. So we will see each other in the windows. And when I was pregnant with my son, she would come and talk to me and help me a lot. She would bring some food and cook something. But they had lots of different religions over there--Muslims, Christians, and pagans--and the pagans have one night when they do Juju. And if the woman, you can see 9 outside, they kill it. So there's complete curfew. They announce on the radio that nobody will go out of the house, this time to this time. Otherwise, you will be responsible. So we did not know, me and my husband. I was pregnant with my son. We went to see our friend. And I can hear the sounds of like screaming and drumming and all those things. "What's going on? Somebody has a wedding over there?" Because when they have a wedding, they make such loud music. And they make music day and night. And they said, "No, no, no, no, this is a Juju night." So we were having dinner, talking, and they said, "Why don't you stay tonight over here? Don't go." Our house was like three miles away from them. My husband said, "No, no, no, it's just a little boy. They just have fun, this and that." He didn't take it seriously. As soon as we hit the road, there was the people around and they were just saying, "You have Madame inside. You do not know this is illegal. You just put yourself in a trouble." Well, my husband said, "Look in my car." They give two car numbers: one number you can go to Lagos on some days, and one number you can go to Ibadan, on the other side. So luckily, we have the same day when you can go to Lagos and come back. And he said, "We went to Lagos. We are just coming back; we just got late. We did not know we will be so late." So they let us go, and there were so many of my husband's students, they recognize him. And they just let us go. One time, then half a mile, then another and another and another. There were crowds and crowds. Finally when we reached our state where the house was, our landlady and her husband was waiting for us and they were so much worried. When we walked in, I was brave, I would just say, "Okay, I just went down in the car." But when I came home, then it felt that it was so scary what could happen to us. That's the only thing I remember in Nigeria; otherwise, the people were very loving, very caring. Women were stronger than men; they can beat the men easily. Women will ride the bicycle and the men were sitting behind. All the business, they [the women] will handle, and they [the men] are just drinking and having fun and those kinds of things. But the whole society is ruled by women and based on women. Very strong women. I still, when I see a crowd, I can recognize, this woman is from Nigeria. Tiffany Greene [0:34:02] When you moved from Nigeria, did you go back to Pakistan and then to the United States? Shehnaz Ali No, we came to America. Because when we finished there, the political situation was getting very bad by then. And we decided not to renew our stay more because you have to renew your tenure for 21 months. And then you renew a next time. I said, "Just, let's go from here." And so we came to America. Then we went to Canada. We were trying to see if we can stay over here. My husband wanted to do some PhD or some studies and I have a little baby. And then we went to England. England we did not like. It was winter time and three o'clock was nighttime. So it was very gloomy. First we went to, I think, Europe. Then we came to America-- Europe-- in France. We went to London. And then we came to New York, and everything was like open. You know, from Europe's narrow streets, everything is big and so I like that. So we stayed like two months in New York. As a tourist. We just had lots of friends over there. Then my husband came to Utah. His uncle was having a business with Denny's in Layton. He built the Layton and other Denny's. He was living in Ogden. I said, I'm so sick and tired of traveling with a baby. I want to 10 go home. So I went back to Pakistan. And then he stayed over here, my husband. Then he went to there [Pakistan], then I have my child over there. Then I think we came back in 1987 to the west coast in Los Angeles. Tiffany Greene [0:36:09] How many children by that time? Shehnaz Ali Three, and my fourth child was born over there. Yeah, she's the youngest one. She brought us over here, because she's the one, the youngest one, she came with me. Tiffany Greene So what circumstances brought you back to Utah? Shehnaz Ali Because all our money and everything we had, we built a school over there. We bought the computers over there. And then I don't know what happened. His friend was over here and his uncle-- he wanted him to come to Utah, to America, because he tried before. And he was going to get admission in the University of Utah, something like that. We were very young back then. And then we went to Pakistan, and he did not enjoy [it] over there because all his friends were way ahead of him. They were very successful. Actually, when he left Africa, Nigeria, he was a recording engineer. He had a very good job in radio in Pakistan. And then the delegation came from Nigeria to hire the teacher. He was not [only] a teacher, he did his master's in physics and math. And then on his studies, they hired him. And actually when he went to Egba High School, he did a very good job over there. I would use to watch the television program we had-- the school brings their students, it was a competition for two schools. His school always was the winner. So I will see him sitting over there and they are clapping, this one score is higher and this and that. So they did not want him to leave. But he said I have to go; my family's there. My wife is sick and tired of-- so actually, but then the main thing is there was no communication to Pakistan. The phone calls were not available back then. We have to go to Lagos to make a call to Pakistan, Lahore, to [hear] my parents' voice. I mean, my mother. My father was passed away by then. And I said, "Let's go for it. There is no future for my child. I don't see anything, you know." So then we moved to Europe. We went to England, we have a lot of family over there. We met them. They tried to settle down. They wanted to buy a grocery store. There was a house up there and the store was down. I said, "No, I don't want to do that, you'd just leave me over there. Just going to look at the customers. I am not that kind of person." So actually, he did not like it either. So that's why we went back to Pakistan. He stayed over here. And then he went back and we came back in the 1980s. So a lot of going here and there. Tiffany Greene Yes. You've been all over. When you when you came back in 1987, was that to Los Angeles or to Utah? 11 Shehnaz Ali [0:39:13] No. Los Angeles, LA. Well, we went over there, and the first thing we went to, there was an earthquake. And I said, "Whoa!" And our house was in a building with three homes: one is top, and we were two. And it was not a very good building. We lived on Melrose Avenue. The Hollywood Mountain was right in front when you come from the grocery store. There was like, right here, and it was a very busy street and lots of noise in the nighttime. And sometimes he has to work in the nighttime too, and I would be with my kids alone. I never felt safe. I will put the dark curtains on the windows. Maybe my windows are safe because I cannot see them and they will throw the bottle. There's no-- I have to clean all the broken glasses. I could not leave my children out. If they go out in the backyard, I have to be with them. And then we'll bring them inside. It's not like a chopper was always there. So this uncle who was in Utah, Ogden, he was my husband's uncle, the father's younger brother. He said there is no life; he came to visit us. He was training for his Denny's. He was opening his Denny's. And he just came to visit us. He said, "No, just wind up your place and go." So we just wind up in one week, went to the Amtrak and landed to-- I just, on the train, came to the Ogden. And then we found the place, where the best place he just surveyed. We booked one house near the Layton mall, there was apartments over there. But I didn't like the apartment. It was very noisy and very tight and everything. I said, "I need a little bit more private." So she found a place in Kaysville, so we are the Kaysville people. You know Kaysville? Tiffany Greene Yes. What's the name of his uncle? Shehnaz Ali His uncle's name was Joseph Morales [or Raz]. Tiffany Greene So when you first settled down in Kaysville, tell me, was living in Utah different from the other places that you've lived? Shehnaz Ali I think I felt so relieved. I was only comparing the California life to Kaysville. We never locked the doors. Our cars were open. My kids were playing outside with the other neighborhoods. I have no problem. I would wear my clothes, shalwar kameez. I will go out, and they will say, "Oh, it looks so pretty." And they would appreciate everything. You know. We see in the nighttime, there were so many stars we never seen in LA. I was like, it's a breath of relief. I said, "This is my hometown." We were so happy. And then I took my first child, my son Harris, to Columbia Elementary School. And I met the teacher and I just loved her. And the first time I was meeting her, I said, "She's the perfect lady, Mrs. Hunsaker." Her name was Mrs. Hunsaker. And after that my younger daughter, she was two years behind my son. And then my other daughter, she was two year behind my daughter. And my youngest one, he was like 11 months apart. So they are very close. I will take him; it was only seven minutes' walk from Columbia Elementary School to the apartments over there. 12 So my son will be walking with his backpack. My daughter will walk with me holding her hand, the second one. And my third child, she will be in the pusher. And my baby was over here; I tie it. And our custodian, Mr. Henderson, he would say, "What a busy lady." He would just look at me and I would say, "Okay, don't look at me." He would just say something, a very nice man. He will just take extra care of my children. And then we bought a house very close to the school. It was just like, not only seven minutes-- it will be three minutes' walk. And the cross lady, she would look at me and say, "They're still in." And then I say, "Why? The time is up. Where are my kids?" And I will look from my kitchen window at my door outside. I could see them in the playground with their coats and everything. Shehnaz Ali [0:43:47] So those years were so easy. I was not working back then. And then my son finished elementary school, and my youngest one went to kindergarten and then he went to the first grade full time. Then I thought, I need to do something because this is a new country for me and a new country for my children. This is wonderful, the environment in my neighborhood is-the ladies are such sweet ladies. I can close my eyes and trust them. And I get the same response from them, too. So my children's teachers, they are always very nice to me. They will always praise my child. Who could not love the teacher who is praising your child in front of you, right? And then I said, "How could I be involved in the school setting?" I had education, I knew what's happening, but only I don't have the experience of being with them. So I joined the PTA, the ParentsTeachers Association, so I said, "Give me something. I want to be part of you." So they will call me once a week or once a month to type the newsletters to send to the schools. Back then, there's no internet. We have to do all with handwork. And I just put myself as a volunteer, as a chaperone for the field trips for the children. Sometimes they need help for the ground duty. They will call me; I will be there. I said, "I live right here. Just call me." And sometimes they will come to my door and say, "Shehnaz, are you free?" I said, "Yes, I'm free." I said, "Should I come like this?" "Yeah." So I will just go there, that school was just like my home. And my children, they felt so confident because their mother is always there. And they were good in studies because the way I was raised by my parents, my father would say, "If you are going to learn addition in this class, first learn from home. So when you know what your teacher is telling you, you know that. So you will get more understanding. So you don't feel like, 'Oh, I don't know what--' You won't be like, 'What is happening over here?'" So when I know he is learning this and this, I will teach him before. If this is reading this book, I will bring two--three books, the same kind in the library, and we read it at home. And he was not speaking. He was quiet when he went to the school because he did not know how to speak English. So the teacher knew he knows everything. He gets the good response. But my son will say, "I was so scared. I will never raise my hand even though I know the answer." But it took like three months to open up. And he was the student of the month on the wall. But the other children, they were no problem. Just the first child, he was a little bit understanding that how-- and they really excelled. They went to the magnet [school]. Spectrum program's magnet in California-- all of them, they pass the test. And they have different schools then. And one time my son he was in second grade-- they start in second grade when they take the test. And another friend, he was in third 13 grade. So there was a Farmington school, they were taking the test. He passed the test and everything, but he was not called for the school. He was a little bit heartbroken. But the teacher said, "We have so many candidates, but the seats are very few. So I'm pretty sure that all the parents will drop in one week because they have to do a lot of work and they won't do it. And your child will be the first in the list." And he was younger by the age, too. So I told my husband, "Just wait." He said, "No, no, no. Just leave him in the regular class; we don't want to send him to Farmington. Columbia's fine" and this and that. After one week, they called and said that they had Harris' seat. Like five more students, they can be in the program. So he got in, too. And my daughter, she went in another school-- it was Morgan Elementary School. I don't know if you are familiar with Kaysville or Farmington. So there, she went to the sixth grade. And I was so amazed that they will be talking about Shakespeare, and all those Greek mythology and all those plays and the dramas and the history. I did projects with them. I made-- I was always in the class because it was a fully furnished class with the parents' volunteer work. I was checking their papers and scoring them, and you have to be in at least two hours in the class every week. And then I take work for them, take it home and do that. * Tiffany Greene [0:49:14] Aside from being so involved in your children's school, what other community things did you find yourself involved in here in Utah? Shehnaz Ali Actually, during this time when I was busy with my children, I was part of the community too, right in front of the church. And [for the] fifth grade, I used to go into classes to talk about the countries and the international countries. So they invited me several times in the church to come and talk about your country, your culture, your food, your things, you know, because a long time ago, there was one time when my son was in kindergarten, in the middle of the night a lady came to my door and said, "I heard you're from Pakistan. My daughter, my child, is working on a project on Pakistan. Could you give me some stuff and anything?" And I said, "Come, walk in, and you take whatever you want." So she was very happy. And that's the way I just got a little bit of awareness, somewhere there is a one Pakistani lady living in this community. And when the four of my kids were in the school and dress up on the Halloween, I suggest, "You wear your own clothes, your bridal, you know, with the sequins and this and that. This is your costume. You don't need to be like a very scary one. Beautiful things are also good things." So I have a picture and they will say, "Mom, you always put us our gharara, the lehengas are Pakistani, you know, dress-up clothes, and that's easy.” So they already knew me. And then there was one time me and my husband went. So after 15 minutes, they ring a bell. So the one group will go; there was one Korea, one Pakistan, one was, I don't know which country it was, there was three countries. So there was one lady, she said, "I'm sitting here, because every 15 minutes, we talk about the history, talk about the religion talk about the currency, social arena, culture, or whatever the topic we have made it." And she said, "No, this is my whole project. I'm not moving anywhere. I'm just sitting here." So they actually, they knew that my kids were there. They know the Khan kids--their last name is Khan. They're [named] after the grandfather. And my name is, last name is Ali from my husband, but they're Khan. So they knew the Khan kids. And then my daughter, when she was in high school, she was the president of Operation Smile. And all my 14 kids did lots of things. I have to put in my mind. And one time she came to me and she said, "Mom, I need to go and buy a new shirt." "Why?" "Because I have some program tomorrow." I said, "You can't get anything." "Okay, that's fine. If you see me on the television that's not worth wearing a new shirt." I said, "What are you talking about? Let's go." So the next day, she was on the, they had in Davis High School, they had a program. And they were introducing, and she was talking about showing the quilt and everything. I just barely dropped her off, keep running to turn on the TV, and she was right there. So they were very known kids around all three schools, you know, from the beginning to the high school. All four of them. Tiffany Greene [0:52:54] Was there anyone else in the Kaysville area that was from that part of the world from Pakistan or another Middle Eastern country, other families? Shehnaz Ali There was one more family; they were also very close to our friends and they were called Sheikhs. Their children were just in the same age level, in the same grades and same schools, same classes. Other than that, one girl was from Palestine. Her husband was a Davis High School English teacher. And her name was Nohah. Nohah in Arabic means good news. And she has a little kid, and actually how I involved in the community, she was the reason. She wanted to learn to drive and she couldn't find a person who can. She had the learner but she needed a person to sit next to and make her practice and take the test. I said, "I don't do anything on my hours. I'm here." So I used to take her; she would leave the kids in my house with my children. And I just take her, and we went to the Farmington and Layton area, and all those areas where she was supposed to be taking the test, all the uphill and downhill and this and that, so nearby. So we are assuming this is the area they will take you. When she passed the test, she just gave me a very, from the heart, a prayer like a good wish. She said, "I wish whatever you want, you will get it." "I wish-- I just want to get a good job in the schools." That just came to my heart. And the next day she said, "Would you give me a ride? I want to bring my daughter, too. There is a preschool I want to put her in." Since I already get the double key from my husband's car so I can drive and bring my kids too-- she was also on the main street very close to the schools. I said, "Sure, I will take you with it." When she brought the child for the registration, I just went with her, and I said, "Well, I could be over here. Why not?" You know, when I just looked there, I really liked it. And then I talked to the staff, and there was a lady who was the receptionist. She said, "I know your son. He's very nice, he's a friend of my son," and this and that. So I said, "Well, I'm also I did such-and-such, I know the child psychology, this and that. I want to be part of this program." "Oh, that's so nice. And the one coordinator, her name was Judy Jackson, she just passed by. And she said, "Wow." She just introduced me to her. She brought my hand and said, "If you want to work, would you be able to change the diapers?" I said, "Why not? I raised my four children." So she just said, "Okay, there's an application; fill it." I just filled the application, give it to her. In summertime, it was the extended year school. They call me for three months. They gave me the special need children, but the very intense ones. They trained me how to keep-- because the program is, even though the child is disabled, no matter what, he has the 15 right to be in the school. So almost they have no clue where they are in life. But we can't, I shouldn't say those words. But they were really really disabled children and special needs. I say, "Oh my god, this is my biggest challenge." So I will pray every time. The little beautiful girl was Jessica, she has a condition where children are normal. But slowly, slowly, they reduce their normality and became to a little, like, vegetable condition. And she was in that condition. And the dad was so angry, so angry. I will just love her; she does not know who I am, what it was I'm doing to her. But he will talk to me very negatively about the all the medical programs and the doctors and anything. I started talking to him that every human being makes errors. And if this is what the destiny is, we believe in it. Then we start talking about religion or this and that. After one month, he said, "I was going to sue the doctor, but I changed my mind." He said, "Whatever is the law of God, I accept it." And he was totally changed, you know. And at the end I had other students too; sometimes there were five children. Shehnaz Ali [0:57:59] At the end of the year, we had a big celebration. And we invite the parents and the teachers. We acknowledge them. I drew the pictures of all five children as normal, perfect kids. So I just abolish all the disability. They were like beautiful, healthy children. The parents were just crying. It makes me think, I still have those copies of those pictures in my house. At that time, they offered me a full-time job. You know, after a year, they say, "We considered your application and I think we need you." I would have stopped the program. So I worked full-time, eight hours a day. So I will spend two years in one school. I went in almost every school in Davis School District for two years, you know, sometime three years. Sometimes they rotate me. They say, "Oh, this class is very harsh. And the parents are not cooperating. Send Shehnaz over there." So, like that, I've been very lucky. I'm really happy, you know, being part of this community. So all the teachers, school librarians, principal, vice principal, there are custodians--all the people we have to deal with--they were all my friends. We were passing Christmas gifts to each other, singing songs, doing everything-- so they knew where I was living. They knew my kids. On the parent-teacher nights, my kids will come and pick me up because the wintertime is so dark. They say, "Mom, we will drop you off and they will come and pick you up so you don't come alone." Because sometime I was in Roy, sometimes I was in Syracuse. Sometimes I was in the tournament school in Bountiful. I was in Kaysville, so my husband will come and pick me up. And so I was just like, I'm in a big, big family. So I worked 13 years, then I stopped because my daughter's proposal was coming and I had to travel to-- my first daughter got married in England, so I have to go and see the family in London and went to Pakistan to buy the stuff coming back. So it was very hard for me to find a substitute for myself. I didn't want to give them a hard time. So we traveled quite a bit. And then I thought, maybe this is the thing I inherited from my mother: I cannot stay free. I need to learn something, to do something. I said, "My school time is over. My teaching one." Then came 9/11. That was a big turning point for me. Not to stay home, do something. So we just decided to make a Sunday School we never had before in the masjid. And we need to prepare our children to explain who they are, who we are, how we believe, what we believe, and how we are normal human beings. Because Islamophobia was at the top. I would hear lots of 16 news from New York State, all those metropolitan, huge states, California and other places. And I said, "This is what we need to teach. Even my staff, they did not know what my religion was." They said, "You are Christian, but you kind of weird Christian." Because I will not eat meat. I will say, "oh,"-- they don't know halal so I will say kosher. "I eat kosher meat. And because this is not kosher, I'm sorry, I cannot eat. This is my belief. I will follow it." They will say that's fine. And sometimes they will ask me different questions. They thought maybe I'm Jewish because my hair is dark and my skin is kind of olive-colored, you know? And sometimes they will say, "No, she sings to celebrate Christmas with us. She's Christian. I don't know what kind of Christian." But 9/11 came in. I said, "No, I'm all of them. I'm Muslim. I believe in Judaism. I believe in Jesus. I believe in Moses. I believe all the prophets. And this is what my religion is: Islam." Shehnaz Ali [1:02:57] Then my Director Harris McHattie. Shah, wonderful lady. She was the director of three counties: Morgan, Kaysville, and there was one in Park City, I don't remember the name. So she called me and she said, "We know you but we don't know what you believe, Every month, we have an in-service meeting. There is no school then. So we have to train our staff." I was one of the people who would be learning but not training. And she said, "Would you give us a training?" I said, "What? What kind of--" "Can you just go and tell us who you are? Because we love you." I said, "If you love me then just love me. I would come and I would start crying. I'm not a scholar." She said, "Just come and cry." I said, "Okay." Then I talked to my imam of the masjid. I told him that, "Would you come and just give an introduction of Islam, what we believe and just make the connection of the Abrahamic religions. So everybody will know." So he came and I did that class. I just introduced him and everything, and we showed some clips of "The Message," it's Islamic. Have you heard the movie, "The Message"? It was a Hollywood movie produced by Egypt, but it's a beautiful movie of Islam. So I just borrowed this video-- back then we used to put the videos on the VCRs with the counter, weird stuff, and we had to start this and that. So we did that class and there were two sections. Almost 300 teachers were there. After that, it was just started. Like, it became a trend. So they would contact me and I will contact the imam, and they will be introducing all the principals of the junior high schools and all the principal and the staff of the high schools, different areas you know. Me and my daughter, we made in the church-- two or three times-- we just made a small class and just introduced what Islam is, what is the principles, and how what we believe. It's just a small thing. So in this way I was involved in the community of schools because that was my field, you know. An event we went in to make was the Sunday school and Sundays we talk about-- now, with the pandemic, everything is closed and I don't know what they're doing, virtual or something. My daughter is still teaching virtual Sunday school. Since the pandemic, I just stopped because my own kids come to school and I said, "I need a little break." But anyway, Brigham Young University, their students come all the time on Fridays. They see the Friday prayers and they will ask questions. Then we have interfaith meetings. SLIR, this is the Salt Lake Interfaith Roundtable. That season is starting in March, the first and virtually, I just saw that this morning in my mail. So we've been permanent members in that roundtable, and we had timings of all the faiths, you know, especially on the month of Ramadan. So we will do 17 our Iftar parties together, we talk about prayer, we pray together. And since then, this is my mission, and my husband, we are all together, he's retired, I'm retired. So right now, my kids also are very active in the MSA program, Muslim Students of America. They have their own organization that's all over America. And they do a lot of binding other communities together. And I always learn every time. It's open and I enjoy it. I think, the rest of my life, I will be doing it. I hope the pandemic goes away and then I want to go to the old-age homes just to help them out till I die. So any questions you want to-Tiffany Greene [1:08:29] You just answered all my questions and then some. I think that we can kind of wrap it up today. You've shared so many wonderful stories, and so many wonderful histories of your life. And I know you have a lot more that you could share. Maybe I have to wrap up questions. You've talked a lot about your faith. And do you find that women, and men too, but the women come to you who are of your faith and come to you for advice or come to you for like the nurturing, like you're the older person in the community? Can you talk a little bit about that? Shehnaz Ali Of course, why not? Actually, I love to give answers if they asked question on my faith. That's the best part. Because that's the most convenient answers I could give them and what I believe and I believe from my heart. I am a very scientific student and everything which I believe, I have the witness or I have proved to somebody that's what I believe. My father was a police guy, he was always going deep down in investigating the facts. When I came over here, and I was actually taught-- I don't know about my religion because in Pakistan, we were all practicing because we were Muslims. We knew this is the day of celebration, we know we are fasting, we are praying. Why we are fasting, why we are praying, I have no clue where it comes from. Wisdom, you know all those things, there is a solid reason behind it, there is a solid reason for giving to charity, there's a solid reason for this Salaat, there is the function, what is the benefit? This is what I learned by listening to the famous scholar speeches and reading the books. The first thing I thought when it just came to my head, I was looking for some library books for my kids. They were working on Morgan County and then the district, and the state, and the country. So I would just go and take them to the library. And there was one book it says Karen Armstrong, "One City, Three Faiths." That book, I said, "Whoa." I pulled it. It was on Palestine, and all the dispute and all these things. And my eyes were open, how much knowledge she had. She was a Jewish, but first she was a nun. And she would give the lectures to the synagogue or something. Then she turned to Islam, and she's not Muslim, but she's a very good author, and she knows the religion. You know, she wrote so many-- I have all the books, my library has "A History of God," "Muhammad: A Prophet for our Time," you know, the modern timings and his belief, and all the dispute on the Muslims and the Jews in Jerusalem, and all those different types of Islam, you know-- and the last book I read, "Fields of blood," you know, when Islamophobia came, she gave the answer to that. And she showed how violent all the religions were in certain times. Because people forget and they just see what's happening. They 18 live in the present. They don't know about the past, they just forget about it. And the future, nobody knows. So they just live in what is happening, we just believe in it. Her book is amazing. When I read her, I can see it. She is wonderful. I met her. Maybe Luna would have told you there was a Parliament of Religion in 2015. I was volunteering from my masjid. And I was volunteering for the community too. I met her, I took her picture and talked to her, and I attended her lectures the last time she came. She's my ideal. I mean, she's a wonderful woman. And I was very thrilled watching-- I have lots of pictures with all those people. They were over there, like the keynote speakers. Tiffany Greene [1:13:30] We were talking about that author-Shehnaz Ali Karen Armstrong. Yeah. So that was the one where my inspiration to learn and listen and be prepared for my own phase two. So then I started listening to the lectures of lots of famous scholars and everything. Then I got a little bit confident that if somebody asked me for certain kinds of questions, I'll be able to answer it. So if anybody wants to come and talk to me, they're most welcome. Tiffany Greene Do you have any advice or wisdom that you–so this is an oral history that will be archived– If anyone reads it that finds themselves in it, they relate to you, do you have any advice for them? You know, living here in Utah or a woman who would find herself in similar situations. Do you have any words of wisdom that you'd like to share? Shehnaz Ali I would say that, if something is happening, which is devastating or disheartening, frightening or something, just let it go. Don't take the grudges in your heart or anything. Be positive and think of other people as in the same way. Put your feet in their shoes and think, if you were in that situation, how would you feel? Because this is what I did when I was working with my school setting or my workplace or anything, I just leave my things in my school; I didn't bring it to home. So we need to be patient and more tolerant. That's what our religion is. Sometimes your tolerance and your patience makes other people positive, too. Tiffany Greene Do you have any questions you'd like to ask or any anything you'd like to know about or subjects you're curious about? Isra Habib No, I mean, you answered like everything really well. It was really interesting to hear everything. Tiffany Greene Thank you so much. 19 Shehnaz Ali You're very welcome 20 Oral Histories of Utah Women from South Asia, North Africa, and the Middle East A Better Days & Utah Muslim Civic League Collaboration Funded, in part, by Oral History Grant 21.01 from Utah Humanities and Utah Division of State History Project Overview In a state that proudly honors the heritage of its European settler forebearers with a holiday every July, it is important for all who call Utah home to be able to have a history that can be documented and celebrated, if not on the state-wide scale of Pioneer Day, at least in the state archives and in their own communities. Compiling a historical record that is centered on Utah women from Middle Eastern/South Asian countries is unique and unprecedented. It is also vital and time sensitive. This project is a necessary step in ensuring that the voices and stories of Middle Eastern/South Asianwomen are recorded, archived, and shared before we are no longer able to ask these women for their stories. The COVID 19 pandemic has brought into sharp focus the reality of losing loved ones and valuable community members whose stories and historical knowledge cannot be replaced once they pass on. As a result, there is an urgency to document the stories of the older generations who have either first hand knowledge experience with or second hand knowledge of the first families to move to Utah from Middle Eastern/South Asian communities across the globe. Additionally, as 2021 marked the twenty year anniversary of the 9-11 attacks, it is important and necessary to amplify voices that can provide accurate information about and portrayal of Utah’s Middle Eastern/South Asian communities and to ensure that this information is available for the public to engage with. Of particular interest and importance, this project records, perhaps for the first time, the unique and nuanced personal experiences of Middle Eastern/South Asian women who call Utah home and contribute to the strength of our local communities. The scope of this project will provide valuable insight into the lives of Middle Eastern/South Asian women and give voice to their experiences, thus counteracting widespread misinformation and misrepresentation of what these women value and how their communities value them. The framework for interview questions revolves around 3 main topics: life prior to coming to Utah, life in the first years after moving to Utah, and life after establishing a community for themselves here. Better Days, in partnership with Utah Muslim Civic League received funding from Utah Humanities Oral History Grant program to conduct interviews with 10 women of Middle Eastern and/or South Asian descent who currently live in Utah. The purpose of these interviews is two fold: first, to share stories of Middle Eastern/South Asian women who live in Utah, and second, to uncover the history of the first generations of Middle Eastern/South Asian women to come to Utah. The interviews were conducted over a 14 month period, between August 2021 and October 2022. Isra Habib, student fellow at Utah Muslim Civic League, coordinated primary interviews with potential candidates to explain the project and share interview questions. If the potential candidate wished to participate further, she also arranged for a secondary interview, the audio 1 and transcription of which are included in this collection. Members of the Better Days team conducted the interviews, Isra being present for most of them. One of the interviewees was not from a Middle Eastern or South Asian background, she grew up in Bosnia, but was able to speak to the community of Muslim women in Utah when she arrived here in the 1990s. Two women have lived in Utah their entire lives, but married into families of Middle Eastern or South Asian descent. The other seven women came to the United States/Utah from the following countries: Afghanistan, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia and Pakistan. Upon completion of the project, a community event was held to share content from the interviews with a larger audience. Luna Banuri and several staff/volunteers from the Utah Muslim Civic League created visual/audio aids for the event. Luna also served as moderator for a panel discussion with a few of the interviewees: Lily Alavi, Shehnaz Ali and Meliha Fezjic, with Shehnaz Kudiya attending in the audience but not participating in the panel. The event was held on November 1, 2022 at the Draper City Library. Approximately 85 people attended. 2 OH 21.1 Project Participants Project Managers Luna Banuri – Executive Director, Utah Muslim Civic League Tiffany Greene – Education Director/Community Engagement Coordinator, Better Days Isra Habib – Student Fellow, Utah Muslim Civic League Interviewers: Rebekah Clark–Historical Director, Better Days Tiffany Greene–Education Director/Community Engagement Coordinator,Better Days Isra Habib–Student Fellow, Utah Muslim Civic League Katherine Kitterman–Executive Director, Better Days Interviewees: Lily Alavi Shehnaz Ali Meliha Fezjic Wan Ismail Maysa Kergaye Sandra Kergaye Shehnaz Kudiya Makay (last name withheld) Niloufar (last name withheld) Lauri Patel Lana Qader Transcription/Formatting Grace Chipman–intern, Better Days Margaret Kitterman–volunteer, Better Days Tiffany Greene – Better Days Toni Pilcher–intern, Better Days 3