Oral history interview with Shehnaz Ali [Transcript and Audio]

Oral history interview by Tiffany Greene and Isra Habib with Shehnaz Ali. Topics include: Growing up in Pakistan, Attending University, Earning a Bachelor's degree and Master's degree in Psychology, Marriage, Living in Nigeria, War,- Immigrating to the United States, Children, Elementary schools, Community, Becoming a special education teacher, 911 Terrorist Attacks, 2001, Hosting Sunday school lessons, Islamophobia, Service, and Positivity.

Oral Histories of Utah Women from South Asia, North Africa, and the Middle East A Better Days & Utah Muslim Civic League Collaboration Funded, in part, by Oral History Grant 21.01 from Utah Humanities and Utah Division of State History Interviewee(s): Shehnaz Kudiya Interviewer(s): Tiffany Greene, Isra Habib Date of Interview: 7 February 2022 Place of Interview: Millcreek Library, 2266 E. Evergreen Ave, Millcreek, Utah, 84109 Length of Interview: 0:55:02 Any views, findings, conclusions, or recommendations expressed in this interview do not necessarily represent those of the National Endowment for the Humanities, Utah Humanities, or Utah Division of State History. Shehnaz Kudiya was born in Pakistan and moved to Utah after marrying her husband when she was 17 or 18. Shenaz and her husband were part of a small group of Muslims who established themselves in Utah and built a foundation for others who later would come. She moved to Utah not knowing anyone but her husband and could not speak the language. But the Muslim community helped and rallied around her. Shehnaz passed that care on back to her community by being involved at the Khadeeja mosque, teaching Quran classes to children, and helping serve lunches there. She has a strong belief in the importance of helping others. Tiffany Greene has lived in Utah her entire life and enjoys visiting new places, spending time outdoors, and studying the past. She graduated from the University of Utah with a Bachelor's Degree in Secondary Education with a History emphasis.Currently, she works as Education Director and Community Engagement Coordinator for Better Days, a Utah nonprofit dedicated to sharing the stories of Utah women. Isra Habib is from Salt Lake City and is now a student at the University of Utah. She is part of the Utah Muslim Civic League and the Muslim Students Association at the University. Tiffany Greene Can you state your name and today’s date. Shehnaz Kudiya My name is Shehnaz Kudiya and today's date is February 7, 2022. Tiffany Greene And where are we recording from today? Shehnaz Kudiya We're recording in the Mill Creek Library. 1 Tiffany Greene [0:00:28] And do I have your permission to record this interview? Shehnaz Kudiya Yeah. Tiffany Greene Can you tell me your birth date and your place of birth? Shehnaz Kudiya My birth date is 9-26-57. And I was born in Karachi, Pakistan. Tiffany Greene Tell me about what life was like for you growing up? Shehnaz Kudiya You know, back in Pakistan my life is really good. I get married and came here. My husband [was] in Canada to study, and then he came. And we came through Immigration; my brother-in-law did it for my husband. And my husband came, and after two or three months I came when he got the job and everything. Tiffany Greene Before you were married, when you were growing up, tell me about the city or the town that you grew up in. Shehnaz Kudiya I grew up in Karachi, Karachi's a city in Pakistan. I had a very good--I miss it still. I miss my country. But it's now almost 45 years in Salt Lake City. We didn't go anywhere else--we checked two or three states, but we didn't like them and we stay here and we are still here. Tiffany Greene When you were growing up, before you got married, before you came here, tell me about your family life. Who was in your family growing up? Shehnaz Kudiya My parents and my one brother and two sisters. I am the oldest in the family, and we all live in Karachi, like some place in Bahadurabad. And everything is really good. Tiffany Greene Tell me about your schooling. Shehnaz Kudiya I went to school and I did only--this is not like a high school--I did it and I get married after two or three months-- within one month I get married. I did only this and I came here. After then, I went 2 to school for-- I did a GED first and then I did an associate's degree but I didn't finish it. I went back home. I miss my family and everything. But I go to only the school, not any college or anything. Tiffany Greene [0:03:19] Aside from your parents and your siblings, tell me about your community back in Pakistan. What was it like? Shehnaz Kudiya Our communities are like-- in Pakistan, they have a Muslim community all over and we go to--you don't go to mosque or anything, not in those days. The men only go. And this is a big city, Karachi, that's why. We have our relatives; everybody's there. Tiffany Greene Tell me about that: your relatives. Shehnaz Kudiya My uncle, aunt and everybody is there--my mother. When I get married, my in-laws are also in Pakistan. Only my brother-in-law is in America, who applied for my husband. Everybody, they are educated. My one sister-in-law is a doctor; one is science-- she does scientific things. And another one is also almost a doctor. And my brother-in-law is an engineer. My husband is a CPA. My youngest brother and sister, they were back there. But after a few years, my brother also moved here. And he lives in Chicago now. And one sister is in Dubai, and one is in Pakistan. And recently, two years ago my mother died and three years ago, my dad. Within a year, they both died. Tiffany Greene Would you like to share the names of your family for this interview? Shehnaz Kudiya Yeah, my father's name is Abdul Aziz, and my mother's name is Ayesha, and I have two sisters. One is Anjoon, one is Syca, and my brother is Imran. Because they all are younger-- when I get married, my younger sister is about five years old. And I get married so soon [after] that--I don't realize it because I'm only 17 and a half or 18 years old when I came here. They are only seven families, and I'm the youngest one in the Utah family. They always welcome me and they did it like a daughter. And each family is not too far-- only 2100 South, that's it from downtown to this [2100 South]. And we come driving down 2100 South. We said it's a very long drive in those days. And very few people, not very much, in our community-- only seven families. Now, one or two more families have moved in different places in Utah. Tiffany Greene What languages did you speak growing up? 3 Shehnaz Kudiya [0:06:23] Urdu, U-R-D-U. But our language is a little bit different. It's named--different dialects-- but we speak in Urdu, and Pakistan is taught Urdu. Like India has Hindi and we have Urdu. It is compulsory. To go to school also, they said, "If you have no Urdu, then you have to take this class and everything." Tiffany Greene What do you remember when you very first came to Utah? What are some of your most vivid memories of when you first arrived here? Shehnaz Kudiya I first thought I'm here-- because I don't know any English very much. And we live in a downtown one-bedroom apartment. My husband is starting new things and he gets a job. And our apartment is very quiet and I don't know anything, but my husband is a little bit strict. He wants for me to learn everything. When I came from Pakistan, he told my parents, "I don't want her to come with anyone, she can come by herself." But I came from Karachi to London. There is my aunt, she came to the airport and met me. Then I came London to California. But my cousin met me there. Then I came to Utah. When I came after one week or two weeks, because my sister-in-law and brother-in-law live in Green River, my husband told me that you can learn everything. You have to do it yourself. Because the laundry downstairs, you have to put money and you can go and bring the change from Albertsons. I walked there and I cried, because I never did it because in Pakistan we have a maid and everything. We don't work too much; you only eat and have fun. Back home, it's like that: you have a chauffuer, you have everything, you don't do anything. Right now also my family is the same, my younger sister. But yeah, here I came and I feel like, "Where have I come?" I start crying and everything. Then this two or three families, they helped me very much. And they liked that, they said, "You don't worry." Because my one friend's husband is doing a PhD in University of Utah, and she come to me and she take me and everything. She said, "Don't cry. You will settle down. It's okay." But it's very hard. Tiffany Greene Do you want to share the names of those families that that helped you when you first came here? Shehnaz Kudiya Yeah, I have a nice friend, Namita. One is Zareen. One is, like we said, Raffia Babi, one is Rani. And two more famil[ies] were also there. But they are all gone now. The one family and me, mostly two families. We are here. Tiffany Greene Were most of those families from Pakistan as well? Shehnaz Kudiya Everybody is from Pakistan mostly; one is from Bangladesh. One family is from Bangladesh. 4 Tiffany Greene [0:10:00] Do you remember what brought those families here to Utah? Shehnaz Kudiya They came before me and they were all older, like not me. I was like nobody else when I came here. I was the youngest one. And they always said, "You are our child." When I had my first baby, after three years, they helped me. They saw me and everything is really good. And they did it: my baby shower. And they have some bachelor boys who get married to American girls-they came to my baby shower also. Well, they are really really helpful for me at that time. Because I miss my family and I don't know. And after I have a baby, then I went home to visit. Before I went one and a half years, my husband said to me, "You can go and stay." And then after my baby was born, my boy, then I went there after one year and a half. Tiffany Greene What's the name of your son? Shehnaz Kudiya One is Najib. And my daughter is Zainub. And my youngest son is Hamza. One is a lawyer. And my daughter went to University of Utah for business. And my youngest one is a medical student. Both boys live in San Francisco, and my daughter lives in Phoenix. And my husband is an auditor in the state tax commission. Except now he retired. That's why. But now there's a very big community. And it's grown because when we came, they were all between the mountain and Trolley Square. They are like a train go by--like a what you said--not really like this kind of train--not--a different kind of train. Tiffany Greene Like a streetcar? Shehnaz Kudiya Yeah, like a streetcar. And this one. Well, when [indecipherable] did something, they have something in the downtown and they show the picture. And I remember all these things. Because I'm only 18-- 17 and a half when I get married. And I came here and had my eighteenth birthday. And back home, in our community, the girls will usually get married at 16, 17. Now they are a little bit better that the kids are in education. The girls also are in lots of education. And they do it a little later. I told my daughter 18 year, here in America. They get married at 18. Many are high school graduates. And then she finished her education. Now it's like home because I learned everything here. Because back then they don't allow the girls, mostly, to go anywhere alone or anything. I saw much differently. When I came and after now, it's also very different and now everything is changed. But the Salt Lake is a very good place. Utah is very good. If you go in the other states, you miss your--my kids are missing Utah and the mountains. They said we want to--missing very much the mountains. Tiffany Greene Are there any similarities between Salt Lake and the city that you grew up in? 5 Shehnaz Kudiya [0:13:47] Now in this day, they are mostly--in Pakistan, they have some places like Salt Lake. They have mountains and snow and everything. And now in these days, the difference is not very much now. They are like the same; what they have in America, they have it in Pakistan also. But it's a little bit hard to live in Pakistan, because of the politics, you know, that's why. But it is really good [here in Utah]. Tiffany Greene You said that you had I can't remember if it was a brother-in-law or some relative that lived in Green River. Shehnaz Kudiya Yeah. Tiffany Greene When did they come over? Shehnaz Kudiya My brother-in-law I think came six or seven years before we came. Because he also got married back home. And after four year we got married. And before my brother in law came. But I do not remember what years, but he came a long time before because my husband lived four years in Canada and before he came we met in '77 and like this, you can count about six years before. Tiffany Greene Why did the brother-in-law choose to live in Green River? What was in Green River? Shehnaz Kudiya They lived first in Denver. My brother-in-law lived in Denver. Then he got married. And after he came-- he's a chemical engineer-- and Wyoming was the place they came to. It is close to Rock Springs. But it's a very small town. I came here then we go for a visit. Within an hour you can see all Wyoming [chuckles] and one store only they have: Rite-Aid, and one grocery store. In Green River, they have one post office. We go like we are going to a very big thing and then we go to Rock Springs in one hour, and Rock Springs is also not at that time big, but big because [it's] Wyoming and we would go. Then, my brother-in-law comes to Salt Lake every week to study in the University of Utah and goes back on weekends. They came for the doctor or anything; they came on weekdays because Wyoming has nothing-- doctor or anything. They come to Salt Lake because we are here. Then it's easy for them. And my brother-in-law every week, he comes and he goes back on Friday. Afterwards, they moved here about--I think my daughter was born that time--he came in '83 to Salt Lake. They moved to Salt Lake. They lived in Sandy now, after that Draper, and now they move with his son. He also has three kids. They move in San Francisco now, my brother-in-law, two years ago, close to their son because they're getting [up in] age and everything. He needs [some]body you know, that's why they move. My husband doesn't want to move anywhere. He wants to stay in Salt Lake. [chuckles] 6 My kids said, "You can move now, because sometime not feeling--" My husband have three back surgeries, and now [indecipherable...maybe hubsand's name?] is getting old and, "You guys can move to San Francisco or Phoenix." But my husband said no. "I want to stay here." I understand because 45 years and now we are friends and like a family and if you go to a new place, you cannot find anybody. And he drive also; he doesn't want to stay home. That's why. But Salt Lake is a good place to raise the kids and everything. And I like it. Tiffany Greene [0:15:29] When you first came to Salt Lake, you talked about the women that welcomed you and helped to take care of you. Were there other community groups or religious groups that helped you feel at home here? Shehnaz Kudiya Because we have no mosque or anything when we came here. We go--we always do it in like in the University of Utah Community Center. Everything we do, if we have like a prayer or sometimes we have our religious fasting month, we do our occasion. We do it there because we are not so many. And after, I think five years, eight years, then they did it on Seventh East. They have this is [indecipherable] but they bought it and this first mosque is in Salt Lake City, Masjid Al-Noor. Afterward, they did a small small places--the people coming--and they're doing a small place. Afterwards, they made Khadeeja Masjid, in West Valley. And now the third big one is, what one is it, like UIC [Utah Islamic Center]. But first is Noor and second is Khadeeja. They have now Medina and lots of--every different people, Muslim people, Somalian, Bosnian-- they have their own mosque. They have one Ali Rasul, this is a little bit different for our things. But now lots of people are here from Pakistan-- Indian Muslim, came from India. Tiffany Greene When you were just doing it at the University of Utah Community Center or on Seventh East, tell me about that community of people. Shehnaz Kudiya In this community, they have three or four people like my brother-in-law, and they have two or three people from Pakistan. They bought this mosque and did like a masjid. And every kind of people is there: a Somalian, Arabic people, and from Pakistan, and from India-- at that time, the Somalians weren't too many. The Arabic people were more, and Indian, and they have lots of student also in the University of Utah. When we came here, at that time, also a few start to study in the University of Utah after two, three years, not right away. With only seven families, nobody was there. But two or three people start to study. That's why we get the Community Center because they allow only students to use it. That's why we did everything we did. And first our, after fasting month, we have like, Eid. We did it in Sugarhouse Park, that community will get a little bit more. Then we need a space, then we do it in Sugarhouse. But nobody complained or anything. They always welcome us Muslim people. And 9/11 also, we have no problem. But my son went for an internship in DC. And that time happened in two places: New York and DC. But they helped my son because only my son is 7 Muslim. They hide him and everything and they take care, so much that we don't believe it, and we are so scared where he is. They are not telling us where is my son. They say, "You don't worry." We call my son afterward, he came safely and everything. But the people are really good. And the people came-- our neighbor also and some other people, they know my son is there. They come and help us very much. This is the good thing. I really appreciate the people that hid him because this is-- you never know. He is a Muslim, and they help him very much. And good people, they call us and said, "Don't worry. Your son is safe and everything." And they help us very much. They came to our house. This is the big thing that they can come and asked-- our neighbors also came. They're also good neighbors. Yeah, we have always had good neighbors. First we used to live in downtown. Afterward my son was born and my daughter. I think my daughter was two or three months old when we moved to West Valley. We built the house. And we lived there. And after, now in Sandy, we are almost 30-32 years in Sandy. Yeah, because my kids go to school. First in the-- because they both are small-- elementary, and one is in high school when we moved here in Sandy. And we are sitting here. Tiffany Greene [0:20:19] When you first came here and in the years after you came to Utah, was there anything you did to maintain the culture of your home here in this new place? Shehnaz Kudiya Yeah, we did a lot, because we have a lot of people here, like seven families. We have like our culture; we do a party and everything. Because it's very hard. Everybody came here and after the kids born and grown-- that's why we have to do the culture thing also. And we always tell them how we--friends go together. And we have some parties and some prayer. Because after a very long time we have a masjid, [but] we had nothing there. That's why all families do it at home and outside also, the culture thing. Tiffany Greene Tell me do you want to share specific examples of parties that you had or different types of events that you would have to share this culture with the new children that have been born or just to share it with each other? Shehnaz Kudiya The children born-- we do mostly each other so that they learn how to because they go to school also. And this is a little bit different for them. That's why we tell them, the kids, that this is our culture, we have to pray. We have to get together, and older people we have to respect them, and this thing also and we did it. After when Noor was at the start, they start a Quran class for the kids. They have some different kinds of classes there and we send our kids every Sunday. Once a week they do it, Quran class, and my older son went to Noor mosque and finished Quran and everything. And he had classes, also different classes that they do on Sunday wherein they learn the Quran and everything. There are people who have their--they help the kids and they are still growing the things and this is true for lots of children--also help us 8 for the kids. I think this is the good thing, that they know how and when the community grew up. And we have a mosque in Noor Masjid, Seventh East. We are small, but we're getting more and more-- the Arabic and Pakistani and Indian Muslim, we have lots. At that time, Somalia is not there. After a long time the Somali and different kinds of people, different places, Bosnian and everything Muslim, they come in there. Then they grow very large now; it's a big city now for us. Tiffany Greene [0:26:05] Did you teach your children to speak Urdu? Shehnaz Kudiya Yes. My kids because-- my husband talks in English but I always talk in Urdu. Sometimes they said, "Mom, why don't you talk in English?" I said, "I don't know." But I have to learn now when my kids married. And my son-in-law's family, my daughter-in-laws and my son-in-law, daughter-in-law. Their family always talks in English. Because my daughter-in-law is from India. Muslim. But they came about 13 years before, and my daughter in law was born in London because her family lived in London. And they all talk in English, but they are so happy that I will talk to the children in Urdu. They said, "You did a good thing." Because I have to. I go to Pakistan every year. And I want them to know Urdu because back there, not very many people used to talk in English and my mother, father, my in-laws and then they get--the kids cannot talk in Urdu then it's very hard for them and then they don't know English. These things help in Urdu for my kids. They go, they talk, and sit with grandparents. And they are happy. But my father-in-law talks in English also. My mother-in-law, my mother, my father, we always talk in Urdu. That's why I teach them Urdu. Still I talk to them in Urdu; I don't talk in English. Sometimes some words, but I never do it. I have my grandkids now. My daughter is also teaching them a little bit of Urdu. Because his grandmother and they talk always in English, but now my son-in-law speaks not only English but Urdu also now he understands. And my daughter-in-law also, but not very well. But they teach the kids also-- try to teach Urdu-although they never went to Pakistan. My grandkids are very small, the oldest one is nine years old. I still talk in Urdu, I try to talk with my grandkids. They know that, what is that, sometimes you need to know if some people come from back home and they want to talk in Urdu. The kids are comfortable and the people who come from Pakistan are also. But now, in these days, kids want to talk only English. All day to go to school, it's hard to get them to talk in Urdu. Tiffany Greene Looking back at it, how long would you say it took to feel at home in Utah after leaving Pakistan? Shehnaz Kudiya I didn't know what you say? Tiffany Greene When you came here to Utah, how long did it take to feel like you were at home here, after leaving your home in Pakistan? 9 Shehnaz Kudiya [0:29:33] It's long time, long, long time. I still miss my country also because my everything is there. My parents also, they come and go, they came to America, come and go, but I miss them very much when I came here. When my son was born, I go every year for four months. I take the kids and go to Pakistan every year. Tiffany Greene What time of year would you go? Shehnaz Kudiya In summer. No school, then I go in summer to stay for four months. After three months, my husband comes. We mostly go for the occasions and like Eid, like a Christmas. This time in summer, I go there. Then my husband comes with one month left and we come back together after four months. But I miss it very much because your parents, your brother, sister--everybody's there. Nobody is here, only my brother-in-law. All family, they came with everybody, but they go back. They said, "No, we don't want to stay." My sister-in-law also has a green card; my sister also. My parents are citizens. They have come and go, but they don't stay very long. But they don't want to move here, my in-laws' family and also my sister. My brother came here because he is working. We leave Pakistan about two years before he got married and they lived in Taskan, Russia. After Russia, they moved here when he got a green card. My brother got in early because--though my sister and my brother were young. Before 21, they got it. But they were 15 and 16, and my brother came for a visit first, and then they came from Russia and they moved here, and now they have also been here about 17 years. My brother is in Chicago. My youngest sister came, her husband is also a citizen, but he doesn't want to move here; they want to stay there. I understand you have nothing here, while you have everything you can find in Pakistan. That's why they don't want to come here and work and do everything. [chuckles] I think it has taken a long time to me. Because we have a very few people and they all are not my age and you can like--they are helping me very much. If they feel that I'm more like a daughter and they give me a very--when I was pregnant, they helped me too much. But you feel like some family comes, but my mother applied for the visa at the time when my son was born in '80. They didn't give my mother the visa, and I'm alone with my husband. But my friends helped me very much because your first baby, you don't know anything and I'm so--I came at 18, and after three years my son was born. But every time you can feel your--miss your country also. But I grow, as I learn everything here in Salt Lake City. Because we in Pakistan, we are so--not go anywhere or don't do this and this. But when I came here, I learned--and I went to the school. And after I get married within a month--the 19th I was engaged and [by] 19 February I ha[d] married. This year is 45 years. Tiffany Greene Congratulations! 10 Shehnaz Kudiya [0:33:34] Yeah, 19 February. So fast that I cannot--I thought I can take some classes. Then after two or three months, the college started. I was so happy, my cousin and me, because we go to college, and I get married. But I came here and I did Salt Lake Community College. I think I have a one--one and a half year for the associate's degree and I went back home to visit and then I came and I said, "No, I cannot do it." But my husband is very--wants that I can do something, but I am not. I said, "No I don't--I have to take care of a house and baby and this is not." When you have a young age, you never know what is this thing going on? But I am happy in Salt Lake, I like it and the people also very good. Still, here is very good. Tiffany Greene After your kids were grown up a little bit, were a little older, did you get involved with any other community groups? Shehnaz Kudiya I help Muslim people in my Khadeeja mosque. I helped to teach little classes to learn the the Quran and this thing, and I help for the lunch thing. I bring everything for lunch and I, every Sunday, then help for lunch room also. I did it for a long, long time and my husband helped in the mosaue also for the auditing or like a tax thing. I did this thing because it's very hard to bring the all food and everything from Costco and this kind of stuff. Sometimes you order pizza or sometimes we have different things every week. And I helped them in the lunch room and I did it a couple of times. And my daughter also helped the kids to learn the Quran and this thing. He [husband or son] also come to the mosque and helped, and he took the classes also in mosque, but I did this kind of stuff. Not anything else. Tiffany Greene What was your favorite thing to prepare? What was your favorite food to prepare for those Sundays? What was your favorite thing to make? Shehnaz Kudiya Yeah, we will usually try to do not homemade things. Tiffany Greene Oh, okay. Shehnaz Kudiya We have tried to buy things like in Costco, and we have some friends, they make pizza they can bring. But not any other food we have to cook, no. Tiffany Greene Do your favorite dishes that you make at home? Shehnaz Kudiya Yeah. 11 Tiffany Greene [0:36:38] Tell me about those. Shehnaz Kudiya I make lots of things. Tiffany Greene Tell me about them. Shehnaz Kudiya Like a curry, chicken curry and like triangles, we have samosa, and we have some kebab and this kind of stuff. Also we like a snack thing type. And cooking is a little different, chicken korma, korma we do, and bread-- we made a homemade bread. This one I always do it. Then when the kids grow up, they also eat our food. And I eat always spicy food. When my kids were born, after six months or seven months, we start our food. But I never wash it. I will give them spicy food; that's why they're used to it. Then he can go anywhere. You have no problem; the kids can eat. If they don't, then it's very hard. Everybody said, "How did you do it?" I said, "I don't--you don't wash or anything." First baby food, we understand that. Afterward they send--my daughter is also doing same and my daughter-in-law also because I have one grandson and three granddaughters, and they also do the same thing. Now they are growing up, and they eat spicy also, the oldest ones are nine and five. They do it. But the [young] one is now two. Tiffany Greene Do you have a favorite dessert that you like to make? Shehnaz Kudiya Yeah, dessert is my favorite. [chuckles] I am a dessert person. I don't eat food but I eat dessert. I make like a trifle and like different things, like carrot halwa, this kind of stuff I do. And I know whenever we have some party, I told them I will make a dessert and they said, "We don't know to make a dessert. You can make it." We make our--like milk--we say ras malai--like a milk and then we have to make this thing. And I always want dessert. [chuckles] My husband also eats it but my husband wants--now in these days, he wants Cold Stone ice cream. [chuckles] This is the difference right now. But it's really good. Dessert and everything, we have a Pakistani thing. My kids bake and everything. I cannot bake. I bake only the cake, a normal one, not a very fancy one. But I always do it, it is dessert from Pakistan. We make it, this one. Tiffany Greene Do you want to share any memories that you have about special holidays or festivals that you remember celebrating either here in Utah or back home? 12 Shehnaz Kudiya [0:39:26] Back home is little bit different. The ladies don't go in the mosque, when we have a celebration thing. Then our relatives come to each other's houses and give gifts. Back home always--mostly now, they are giving a gift, but we always give cash for the kids and like a brother or sister. Always give cash, no gift or nothing. But here we go to the mosque, and we have some party in the evening or next day or next week. This thing is good, so that we cannot get bored from staying home. And men go to the mosque back home and they came after prayer, they come home. But no ladies go, nothing. You have to go to your relative's house or they come to your house like this. And ladies don't go anywhere. Then you get bored, staying home, and everything is closed back home. When we have--like a Christmas--mostly, and when back home also in those days. And we have a sacrifice, like a goat or anything, cow, or anything, we do it at home. And then they cut and everything; they give them meat and you have to distribute everywhere to poor people and this thing. But here now, they started about a couple of years ago, four or five years, they also do it here--but this is the big and good thing that we get not bored, we go to mosque and we meet everybody. And afterwards they do a breakfast party. After prayer, we go someplace and in the evening we make--like arrange--for the party or next week or sometime. Now they have big places here. That's why they said you can pay this and come, and we meet each other because everybody's not coming to the mosque in the early morning with kids. They want to go in the evening, then they meet each other. We have lots of people now--about, I think, three to four hundred people. Pakistani, [indecipherable] and Somalia and other people, Indian Muslim and different--now it's a big community. They have two places now: Fatimah's, and we do it in Khadeeja also. Now is the COVID. What used to--Khadeeja always does it in the first week of Ramadan, fasting month; they provide the food and lots of people from everywhere come. And they have--everyday they have in the mosque, somebody sends the food. If they have some people or a student, they can have a fast in Masjid and they do this thing. But here, it's a little bit different of a celebration, but in Pakistan, it's okay, but there we used to know these things so we don't care. But now when we came here and start this thing, then we want to do an Eid occasion here. Everybody said we don't want to go on that day because we get bored and everything, but we have to go because with family also it's a good thing. And this is the good one that--I miss Eid day. Everybody was here. Now you see this big community, but we miss our family first because they all are far away. But we have a good community and good people. That's the good thing. We want to, need to, help as much as we can do it. And, if another community also needs help, we can go to the church. They will do it there also. Some things they come to in our community also here, in Masjid. And lots of time we have another community and church we go to and have a dinner. We make everybody make one dish-Tiffany Greene Like a potluck? Shehnaz Kudiya Yeah, a potluck type. And this is the good thing and we need it. Everybody needs each other. We can help any community, not only Muslim, but we have to do it to help another community. 13 And another community helps also Muslims and this one--we need it now. When the kids grow up, then we always said my kids also help in the mosque. My youngest one also did it. Lots of work for Khadeeja mosque. Now we get married and move [chuckles] because his education is there and they have more opportunity. That's why my oldest son moved first to LA, now in San Francisco. He said, "Mom, this place has more opportunity. Now 10 to 11 years ago he moved, our oldest one. The youngest one is seven years ago; he went for the [indecipherable--island?] for the medical education. Now they are all set. Mashallah, this thing is. Tiffany Greene [0:45:09] We're kind of wrapping up. We're getting towards the end here. Would you like to share any thoughts about anything that I didn't ask you about? Is there anything that you want to share about your experience here in Utah? Shehnaz Kudiya Yeah, I have a good experience in Utah, in Salt Lake City. And I worked for only, at the most, two years when my kids grow up and go to school. I worked for Shopko for two years, when my kids go to school, I go--part time I did it. When they came home, I go home, and I have a good experience with the working people also. I want to work, but I don't want to leave my children. I go to school and pick them up. Even in junior high, that time also I go and wait there in the car and they get--"Mom, it's not very far. We walk. Why do you come?" I say, "No way." This is why--I go on my kids--because they are equal, old enough, but I said, 'No." "Mom, we will do it." I said, "No." But I worked there for two years. And I have a good experience for the thing. And the people are also very good. But when 9/11--we worked as cashiers, and also on the floor. Some people come and get upset. He says, "Why are you working here? You go home, you go back home." Like this--I have this also--we have this kind of thing--we have a few months. Afterward, everything is good. But sometimes scary, you know? Yeah. But our manager said, "You don't worry. If you feel anything very bad, then call us, we can come and tell them not to do it." But mostly old people like this, and this is very hurtful--that happened--this is a very bad thing has happened. But they have a Shopko where we work; we have lots of Muslim people work in Twentieth and Ninety-fourth [location of store]-- Shopko there. Lots of our our kids, also my daughter, also my friends' son--five, six or seven, I think Muslim people work in the Shopko, this one. And we have never had any problem or anything. They always helped us when this thing happened. We have nobody tell us anything or anyone. When it happened [9/11], it was little bit a bit rough, and I understand. In Pakistan, it also happened. We were bitter also. Everybody's the same--not everybody's the same, we have different kinds of people. It was an upsetting but very good experience for me. For what, only two years? [chuckles] Because I want to, my kids said, "No, you don't have to work." I said, "No. I want to check how it's going--my whole life I've spent here and I have no experience or nothing. I want to see how the world goes." But I did it part time. And they helped every time, whenever I want. I said I want my vacation or I want to go there. They never stopped me. They 14 gave me very easy--this thing--this is the best one in this country, or in the state--it is really good. Tiffany Greene [0:49:01] That's good. Do you have any advice that you'd like to share with anyone who may be coming--if there are other women who are coming to Utah from Pakistan. Do you have any advice for young people that are coming to Utah today? Shehnaz Kudiya Yeah, they have to come but they have to do it--things will go--but do not forget the culture. This thing, I don't want. I want this young generation to come, this is a little bit too hard for them. They come, but some kids come and they don't do it, the education or anything, and they want to work. If you start at once to work, then you cannot finish your education. And this thing is happening lots of times. The kids come on like a student visa or anything. And we need--I like that they have to do the education first. Because lots of people who come after we came, after lots of young kids came, my husband tell them and they did it and now they always respect us. That gives us a nice good ride. And they have finished their studies; now they are in a big good position and everything. This is the thing I want: the education is a main thing. When you educate and you have [no] need for anything, you can get your own. If no education, then it's very hard on the parents also and you spoil your life. But I hope the young kids do it--any kind, because lots of different kinds of people--but I hope for this. And back home also now, the education is really good. Before not, but now it's really good and they have English everywhere. And small kids now speak in English. First not, but somewhere like a village or anything, this is the problem--but not in the city or anything now. I'm really happy that they are going now--this thing is coming up. For our generation, it was not very good that at time, but now it's very good. In Pakistan and in America. I hope everything will work for everybody to help. We need to help each other. This is the good thing, you know. Tiffany Greene Definitely. Well, I don't have any other questions. Do you have any other questions you'd like to ask? Isra Habib No, you covered like everything. I really liked listening to your stories; they were really good. Shehnaz Kudiya Yeah, I--this is hard, when I came here it was very hard because nobody was here. I said to my husband--because we are a little bit good, a middle class family and everything. And I came here and I looked all over, really small like [indecipherable], I think this is very hard for me. Now, these days some family come because the relatives tell them to get a green card and they come and they said, "We miss our Pakistan and we want to go back." And I said, "You are lucky that there is a big community of families. When we came, we didn't find bread!" Because in our religion we have halaal and they always, they have a pork in there, in the bread. We will order the chicken from Denver, when we came here. Halaal chicken they send us in the mail and my 15 husband slaughtered the cow for the halaal things. That time, nothing we find. I said, "You guys are so lucky, everything is now here. You have no worry, your family your food. And we had no bread." We only--we find out after a very long time--Safeway had bread. They do it with the vegetable oil and this thing. And I said, "This was very tough, when we came here. Every time I start crying, you know, when my brother-in-law and sister-in-law came to Salt Lake. He said, "It's okay. We lived in Denver, now we are in a very small town Wyoming. It's okay you will--" But this is the tough time, but afterwards everything has gone smooth and my husband got a very good job. He started from a state job when he came here but afterward we moved into a South Salt Lake apartment, two bedrooms. My mother-in-law came from Pakistan to visit. Then we moved to West Valley and then in Sandy, 30-32 years now in Sandy. This is the good thing, that you work hard and everything because my husband worked hard, very hard. And he said, "No, I want to give our kids education. What I do for them, not everybody can do." Never have they had any hard time and now they are, mashallah, they are really set free. It's ours and our friends' kids also; lots of friends' kids also did it. This is the main thing for the kids. Tiffany Greene Well, thank you so much. Shehnaz Kudiya You're welcome. If anything-- you can take it out. [chuckles] Tiffany Greene I don't want to take any of it out; that was wonderful. 16 Oral Histories of Utah Women from South Asia, North Africa, and the Middle East A Better Days & Utah Muslim Civic League Collaboration Funded, in part, by Oral History Grant 21.01 from Utah Humanities and Utah Division of State History Project Overview In a state that proudly honors the heritage of its European settler forebearers with a holiday every July, it is important for all who call Utah home to be able to have a history that can be documented and celebrated, if not on the state-wide scale of Pioneer Day, at least in the state archives and in their own communities. Compiling a historical record that is centered on Utah women from Middle Eastern/South Asian countries is unique and unprecedented. It is also vital and time sensitive. This project is a necessary step in ensuring that the voices and stories of Middle Eastern/South Asianwomen are recorded, archived, and shared before we are no longer able to ask these women for their stories. The COVID 19 pandemic has brought into sharp focus the reality of losing loved ones and valuable community members whose stories and historical knowledge cannot be replaced once they pass on. As a result, there is an urgency to document the stories of the older generations who have either first hand knowledge experience with or second hand knowledge of the first families to move to Utah from Middle Eastern/South Asian communities across the globe. Additionally, as 2021 marked the twenty year anniversary of the 9-11 attacks, it is important and necessary to amplify voices that can provide accurate information about and portrayal of Utah’s Middle Eastern/South Asian communities and to ensure that this information is available for the public to engage with. Of particular interest and importance, this project records, perhaps for the first time, the unique and nuanced personal experiences of Middle Eastern/South Asian women who call Utah home and contribute to the strength of our local communities. The scope of this project will provide valuable insight into the lives of Middle Eastern/South Asian women and give voice to their experiences, thus counteracting widespread misinformation and misrepresentation of what these women value and how their communities value them. The framework for interview questions revolves around 3 main topics: life prior to coming to Utah, life in the first years after moving to Utah, and life after establishing a community for themselves here. Better Days, in partnership with Utah Muslim Civic League received funding from Utah Humanities Oral History Grant program to conduct interviews with 10 women of Middle Eastern and/or South Asian descent who currently live in Utah. The purpose of these interviews is two fold: first, to share stories of Middle Eastern/South Asian women who live in Utah, and second, to uncover the history of the first generations of Middle Eastern/South Asian women to come to Utah. The interviews were conducted over a 14 month period, between August 2021 and October 2022. Isra Habib, student fellow at Utah Muslim Civic League, coordinated primary interviews with potential candidates to explain the project and share interview questions. If the potential candidate wished to participate further, she also arranged for a secondary interview, the audio 1 and transcription of which are included in this collection. Members of the Better Days team conducted the interviews, Isra being present for most of them. One of the interviewees was not from a Middle Eastern or South Asian background, she grew up in Bosnia, but was able to speak to the community of Muslim women in Utah when she arrived here in the 1990s. Two women have lived in Utah their entire lives, but married into families of Middle Eastern or South Asian descent. The other seven women came to the United States/Utah from the following countries: Afghanistan, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia and Pakistan. Upon completion of the project, a community event was held to share content from the interviews with a larger audience. Luna Banuri and several staff/volunteers from the Utah Muslim Civic League created visual/audio aids for the event. Luna also served as moderator for a panel discussion with a few of the interviewees: Lily Alavi, Shehnaz Ali and Meliha Fezjic, with Shehnaz Kudiya attending in the audience but not participating in the panel. The event was held on November 1, 2022 at the Draper City Library. Approximately 85 people attended. 2 OH 21.1 Project Participants Project Managers Luna Banuri – Executive Director, Utah Muslim Civic League Tiffany Greene – Education Director/Community Engagement Coordinator, Better Days Isra Habib – Student Fellow, Utah Muslim Civic League Interviewers: Rebekah Clark–Historical Director, Better Days Tiffany Greene–Education Director/Community Engagement Coordinator,Better Days Isra Habib–Student Fellow, Utah Muslim Civic League Katherine Kitterman–Executive Director, Better Days Interviewees: Lily Alavi Shehnaz Ali Meliha Fezjic Wan Ismail Maysa Kergaye Sandra Kergaye Shehnaz Kudiya Makay (last name withheld) Niloufar (last name withheld) Lauri Patel Lana Qader Transcription/Formatting Grace Chipman–intern, Better Days Margaret Kitterman–volunteer, Better Days Tiffany Greene – Better Days Toni Pilcher–intern, Better Days 3