Oral history interview with Sandra Kergaye and Lana K. Qadar [Transcript and Audio]

Oral history interview by Tiffany Greene and Isra Habib with Sandra Kergaye and Lana K. Qadar. Topics include: Working at a telephone company, Marriage, Being a Muslim convert, Community leadership, Hosting Sunday school events, Owning a middle eastern grocery store, Business, Immigration, Mosques, 911 Terrorist Attacks, 2001, Islamophobia, Family, Community, Muslim communities in non-Muslim society, and attending college.

Oral Histories of Utah Women from South Asia, North Africa, and the Middle East A Better Days & Utah Muslim Civic League Collaboration Funded, in part, by Oral History Grant 21.01 from Utah Humanities and Utah Division of State History Interviewee(s): Sandra Kergaye and Lana Qader Interviewer(s): Tiffany Greene and Isra Habib Date of Interview: 31 August 2021 Place of Interview: Millcreek Library, 2266 E. Evergreen Ave, Millcreek, Utah, 84109 Length of Interview: 1:04:09 Any views, findings, conclusions, or recommendations expressed in this interview do not necessarily represent those of the National Endowment for the Humanities, Utah Humanities, or Utah Division of State History. Sandra Anne Schults Kergaye was born and raised in Salt Lake City. While working a job at a telephone company, she met her husband from Iraq and converted to Islam. Sandra and her husband were leaders in the Utah Muslim community as they hosted Sunday school and many different events. They also owned a grocery store in Salt Lake that sold middle eastern food and halal-prepared meat. With the increase in immigration, Sandra got to meet Muslims from all over the world and watched the small community of Utah Muslims grow from small meetings in her home to the establishment of multiple mosques providing services in many languages. Amidst backlash to 911 and the struggles of being a minority, Sandra and her family served their community and were trailblazers for the Muslim community. Lana Qader, the daughter of Sandra Kergaye, was born in Salt Lake City. As a child, her parents served as important and influential members of the Muslim community in Utah, and Lana remembers many members of the names and stories of those people. After going away to receive her college education, Lana returned to Utah where she raised a family of her own. She continues to follow her parents' example by serving in her community. Tiffany Greene has lived in Utah her entire life and enjoys visiting new places, spending time outdoors, and studying the past. She graduated from the University of Utah with a Bachelor's Degree in Secondary Education with a History emphasis.Currently, she works as Education Director and Community Engagement Coordinator for Better Days, a Utah nonprofit dedicated to sharing the stories of Utah women. Isra Habib is from Salt Lake City and is now a student at the University of Utah. She is part of the Utah Muslim Civic League and the Muslim Students Association at the University. Tiffany Greene Can you state your name, please? Sandra Kergaye My full name is Sandra Ann Schults Kergaye. Tiffany Greene And your birth date? 1 Sandra Kergaye [0:00:21] My birthday is July 28, 1938. Tiffany Greene And your place of birth? Sandra Kergaye My place of birth was San Francisco, California. Tiffany Greene What is today's date? Sandra Kergaye Today's date? You got me there. Lana Kergaye August 31, 2021. Sandra Kergaye August 31, 2021. Tiffany Greene And do I have permission to record this interview today? Sandra Kergaye Yes, you do. Tiffany Greene And where are we recording from today? Sandra Kergaye The Millcreek library. Tiffany Greene Okay, Sandra, tell me about what your family life was like growing up? Sandra Kergaye Well, I had a good childhood, and my parents were very nice. And the home life was quiet. My mother and dad, there was no arguments, anything. I mean, everything went on all quietly like that. I probably lived in about four different houses in different times. My father, he was a teletype operator, he worked for the Salt Lake Tribune. My mom was a housewife, and actually she didn't know how to drive car. Many, many years later, she went and got some driving lessons. But she really didn't take the car after that to drive around because my father would think there was a little rattle that he didn't hear before she 2 drove the car, so it must have been something that she did. So, that was the end of driving for her. He had to do all the driving, so therefore, he had to take her everywhere, to the grocery stores and things like that. She didn't want to be accused of every tiny little bump on the road is going to cause something. So that was how that was. Tiffany Greene [0:02:36] What roles did you take on in your family growing up, between you and your siblings and your parents? Sandra Kergaye Well, I had two older brothers, and I was the third one born, and I had a sister younger than I. We were quite far apart in age. So, aside from the fact that one brother liked to tease me a lot, there wasn't much companionship or camaraderie because of the difference in age. But it was a quiet childhood bringing up, I can't complain. Tiffany Greene You said you were born in San Francisco. When did you move to Utah? Sandra Kergaye I didn't remember this, of course, I was only four when I moved to Salt Lake and we've been in Salt Lake ever since. My second brother was also born in San Francisco, which I didn't realize until just lately, when he said that he was also born there, I never thought about that. (Aside) It's kind of hard to keep thinking of something to talk about. Tiffany Greene What about your community growing up outside of your family? Tell me about your community. Sandra Kergaye Community. I don't know, I don't think I was involved much in the community thing. We just lived on a street and thank heaven there were a couple of kids, probably close to my age. And so, you played with them outside and then you got called in for dinner time and you went in for dinner. I don’t remember any more than that. Tiffany Greene What interests did you have when you were younger? Sandra Kergaye Interests? Tiffany Greene Hobbies, interests? 3 Sandra Kergaye [0:04:41] I really don't think I had any interest in anything. And I didn't read either, come to think of it. Many people read books, but for some reason I never got into reading books. So, that led to later in life that a book had to be interesting, like on the first page or otherwise I wasn't going to read that book, if it didn’t have something interesting in it. Once in a while, I'd even go to the back of the book to find out how it all ended up without reading the whole book. Tiffany Greene Were there any special holidays or festivals or regular gatherings for your family and your community? Sandra Kergaye Mostly we were just into the family. I had grandparents and cousins and aunts and uncles. We had some things that we did, like going to Lagoon for one day, and going to the canyon, up to Storm Mountain, for a picnic. It was a family thing, I believe, with grandparents and aunts and uncles and cousins, of course. I had cousins, like two years older and two years younger than me. The older cousin, we were close, even as kids. So, we did a lot of that: her parents visiting mine, mine visiting hers. They lived in the Sugarhouse area. I can remember when it was Thanksgiving time, and all the family came, all my aunts and uncles and cousins. Us cousins, we thought we really had to pull a fast one on my aunt because after the dinner, we thought we're going to have to go in there and start doing the dishes, but didn’t it work out like that! My aunts, they were so happy to be in the kitchen working by themselves, they just shooed the kids right out the door! We had to walk about four or five blocks into Sugarhouse and go to the movies. So that's how that was! Lana Kergaye Tell them how much you spent at the movies. Sandra Kergaye Oh, it was really a good deal going to the movies in those days. I'd get 25 cents from my parents. So, 14 cents of that money went toward the movie. And the last six cents was spent on the candies at the counter. So that was a good deal. Because I was kind of short for my age, I got in for the child fair, I remember that. At the movies, it wasn't like nowadays, where you check the time of the movie and you get to go from the beginning. In those days, you just walked into the theater, no matter what time, you just walked in, and you saw what was going on, and you sat down, and you watched to the end of that one. Then, you'd sit there longer, after they rewound the film, and you'd catch up from the beginning of the show to find out what happened to match up with the end. We didn't have that thinking about being to the beginning of the movie, you just walked in whenever and everybody did that. Nowadays, it's a lot better and you can get to the beginning of a show. Tiffany Greene Tell me about your school, your education. 4 Sandra Kergaye [0:08:19] I went from the kindergarten up to the 12th grade and graduated. I didn't go on beyond that. But I did go to some business schools where I learned the key punch. This was in the 1960’s, the beginning of the computer age. I got a job at Mountain Bell, I think it was at that time, the telephone company, and got into the control group. We had our little computers, and we had the long cards, and you have to punch in the names and everything on that thing. I had two states, I think it was Idaho and maybe Montana or Wyoming, to have the billing for all those people who worked. Actually, it was all about counting the telephone poles, I think that's what it was. So, I kept track of those companies and made sure that the payroll cards came out. When they got printed up, we would run our eyes down it to make sure there wasn't any kind of big error, that something got in there that wasn't supposed to be in there. We learned how to run this rotor machine and a few things like that. Those machines were behind glass doors and windows, they weren't just out in the open, probably like they are now. They were sealed off, in another room by themselves. I think that was probably the beginning of the computer system starting up, a really long time ago. Tiffany Greene Is there anything else you want to share from your growing up years or into young adulthood? Sandra Kergaye I don't know. I had a quiet life growing up. My parents got along very well. My younger sister liked horses, so my parents got her a horse. She's always been involved with horses, she liked animals since that time. Let’s see, what else do I remember…I remember my sister was a little handicapped. My parents, I don't know why they bought it, but they bought a piano for me to take piano lessons. I remember that. And I wasn't very good at that either. But to compensate for them buying me a piano, she wanted to have a horse. So, they went out and they found a horse for her. They found an area, not too far from where we lived, that would pasture the horse. So, she had her horse and I had my piano. At one point in time, my father's job transferred him to Chicago, so we lived in this suburb of Chicago. My parents, thinking that I was the piano virtuoso, shipped that piano to the house that we were renting. But come to find out, when we got to the house we were renting, there was already a piano in the house. So, I think they had that shipped back and put in storage or something like that. Our own house got rented out to some renters while we were gone. I think we were gone for a year, probably not more than that. Then my father got the opportunity to transfer back to Salt Lake. We liked to live in Salt Lake. What else? Lana Kergaye You could tell them where your grandma’s from, her heritage. Sandra Kergaye My grandparents were wonderful. They were Swiss people, they had come over from Switzerland. So, I'm half Swiss on my mother’s side. My father's side, they were from Connecticut, my dad was from Connecticut. My great grandfather was from Germany, so I was German, for the name Schults. That grandfather changed the spelling from the normal spelling of Schultz, which is S-H-U-L-T-Z, to S-C-H-U-L-T-S. He changed the name. He wanted to be more American, I think. So that was the 5 reason why he changed the spelling of the name. So, it's been like that since my great grandfather's time. I can’t think of anything else. Lana Kergaye [0:12:27] You used to do those Sunday drives, and get root beer and gingersnaps. Sandra Kergaye Oh yes, my mother, she didn't drive car and she was home all day, every day and my dad went to work. She called up him before the close of his job to go to the grocery store, pick up the milk and the bread and butter and whatever else they needed for that time, and he would go to do that and bring it home. At one point in my childhood, my father and a neighbor, they decided to go in together on a cow. So, we had a cow in our backyard. That cow actually had a little baby and they called it Daisy, that little calf. They took turns for milking, because cows have to be milked twice a day, morning and night. I think my father did one and then the neighbor, he did the other. They split the milking and they shared the milk. The neighbor mother she made the butter out of the milk. We had a big deep lot and it had apple trees. There must have been a half a dozen apple trees in the backyard. I think it was about a half an acre lot because it was a very deep one. My parents used to grow, on the other half of the lot, they had a big huge garden there where they grew all the vegetables. I remember my mother canning the corn, canning all the beans, making her own sweet and dill pickles, and strawberry jams. Anything that had to be preserved in jars, she knew how to do that. Let’s see, we had chickens in the backyard, and we had some geese in the backyard. My dad made a pond. He dug a hole, and he put water in it for the ducks and the geese. The goose was a mean one too, it would come up to you and bite you, and you had to run away from it. That thing could come charging at you! The chickens were fine, but that goose was a problem! We had a lot of apples, so my dad went and bought an apple press and they would press the apples and make this apple cider thing out of that. He also wanted a root cellar. But he decided, after he dug a hole about so wide and so deep, to fill it up with water and keep that for a little pool. Then, he went and dug another root cellar further back in the yard. There's where my mother stored the vegetables and things like that over winter. You just put them down there and they didn't freeze. They had that walk-down-under-ground-thing. That's how that was. I’m really thinking back a long ways here. Tiffany Greene Let's shift to a different chapter of your life and talk about your conversion to Islam. When did you first have exposure to the teachings of Islam and tell me what circumstances led to your conversion? Sandra Kergaye Well, how that came about was by marrying my husband, who was from Iraq, and he was a Muslim. I never knew anything about the religion, anything other than once in a while in the old movies, you'd see some beggars in the streets crying alms for Allah. I had no idea what this was. Of course, now I'd gotten married and come to find out that he also was Muslim too. Actually, it took me about 15 years 6 before I started. I took the Shahada, which is like taking the religion, but I didn't really know anything much about it, or anything. Through the years, there was this small community of us, maybe about 20 people in Salt Lake, that we’d get together. So, it took me 15 years before I started to wear the hijab, like I have on now, and the longer clothes, the more modest clothing. That was a 15-year thing. Sandra Kergaye [0:18:37] Come to think of it, I kind of shocked my relatives. My mom passed away in 1980, and that was the day that I put on my Islamic clothes. I think I was kind of a shocker, sitting there in this funeral service like that, being covered up, because it wasn't accepted a lot by people either. My father kind of kidded me about it. “Well,” he says, “I hope when your children grow up, they kick the religion.” I thought that’s a wonderful thing to say [ironically], and of course, they didn't do that. Then he said, “Well, you believe in another God?” I said, “No, we just call God another name. It's the same one that everybody has, it’s the same God, we just have another name for it.” You know, my mother and my husband, my mom liked my husband a lot. My father was kind of like, “I'm not really sure about that.” But he was kind, he tolerated that. Of course, we had some different rituals, different things that we believed in so we’d get a little flack, once in a while, from my parents or even from my siblings. Because when you’re married to a person from another country, in this country, I'm not saying it's racist, but it’s sort of like that. It's like they're another person, it’s like they're not like us. There was “them” and there was “us”. There was always that kind of undertone from your relatives. He [my husband] is a very nice person, very generous and he likes them. He liked my mom a lot and my mom liked him. But I remember my father was a little, I don’t know, he was just from the old school, you can't change their thinking. So, we had that to contend with. Tiffany Greene How did you meet your husband? Sandra Kergaye I happen to be working at the telephone company. And there was a girl there who happened to be married to a man who was also from the Middle East. That’s sort of how we got connected. There was another friend and there was another family who lived in Salt Lake, who also were from his country. So, some country people we became friends with, you know, so we had that. Well, do you have any more questions? Tiffany Greene I do, yes. Was the role in your family that you created with your husband, once you converted to your new faith, different from the other people that were your neighbors or in your community? What similarities were there? Sandra Kergaye [0:22:23] 7 The thing that sets us apart, as looking different, are our clothes. The children, they belonged to the Little League, and they did all the things, you know, like that. Once in a while, the Mormon people would come around, so my husband was careful not to be persuaded by them. Because they kind of, well, I don't know how to say, because they have Boy Scouts and all that kind of thing in their church. I don't believe my kids joined up with Boy Scouts. Lana Kergaye They were in it. Sandra Kergaye Were they in it? Lana Kergaye Yeah, they did it for some years. Sandra Kergaye Yeah, they probably did it for some years. So, we got along with the neighbors fine. They just knew that we were of a different faith. Tiffany Greene You said that there was a community that was smaller in number? Sandra Kergaye Yes. Tiffany Greene Tell me about that. Sandra Kergaye Well, we have a prayer on Fridays. Fridays are our Sabbath day. Sundays are some other people's and then Saturday is for the Jewish people. So, it's a different day there. But for the housing village where the students live, what do they call that? Tiffany Greene Student Housing? Sandra Kergaye Student housing village. Lana Kergaye University of Utah University. Sandra Kergaye [0:24:39] 8 University of Utah [simultaneously]. They had a big hall, Lana Kergaye Community Center. Sandra Kergaye We would meet in the community center. We would meet there and that's how we got together. Eventually, we went to start some of our own community centers. We had an apartment building over on Sunnyside Avenue that we met in as a meeting place besides the community center. Then, later on, we opened a grocery store on Ninth South and about Eleventh or Twelfth East. We had a Middle Eastern grocery store. Across the street from that was a really cute little house, that I guess we must have rented, to use for children's school. We had the school in that little house. Lana Kergaye And they would do a Sunday school. It was on Sunday, because that's when everybody's off. Different members in the community would volunteer, whether it was teaching or volunteering to pay rent. Ghulam [Patel] was doing that by then. Remember, he was a principal? Sandra Kergaye Well, actually, then they went on to have their own school. Lana Kergaye Well, that was years later. Sandra Kergaye Years later. Lana Kergaye So, on Sunnyside Avenue, it was a four-plex and one of the apartments was rented for a few years. And then that one on Tenth East, you said? Sandra Kergaye Ninth South, yeah, across from, Lana Kergaye Ninth South, several years there. And after that was the building still existing on Seventh East and about Seventh South. That's still there. Somebody bought that, it was a church. That's been, gosh, 20 some years. Sandra Kergaye Oh, yeah, that's right. Lana Kergaye [0:26:39] 9 Somebody bought that one. It's a tricky location being on a busy street and doesn't accommodate a lot of parking, but it got bought. That's kind of a legacy of never being in a good location (chuckles). But anyway, that's the one that's still there. Since then, until now, there's at least 15 different mosques around the valley. Over the years they've grown. As immigrants come in, that group will tend to establish a building and it's usually by a language. They will have a Sudanese mosque, a Bosnian mosque, a Turkish mosque, because that population will want to have something in their language. But some of these older ones are always usually in English, because that's the dominant language. Years ago, the majority of people who are coming into Salt Lake were coming as students. They would come to the University of Utah to pursue PhDs. Tiffany Greene And your father, your husband, is that how he came here? Sandra Kergaye He came for school, right. He went to Utah State. He's a firm believer. He loved Logan. Lana Kergaye Yeah. He finished his engineering degree and then stayed. He just thought it was beautiful here. So, many people will come, and a fair amount will do their studies and then they go back either home or jobs elsewhere. You could almost say big swaths of Arabs tended to go back home or move on because their countries were still stable. People from India and Pakistan, Bangladesh they tended to stay and establish businesses, by and large. So, you'll find the shop owners in Salt Lake they're more of a desi background. That's just like a general term for India and Pakistan. Numerous friends that we've met over the years have been students and then they go on just different pathways. So, it was very mixed, I grew up with friends who were very multicultural. A good number of people who we’ve known for many, many years. Sandra Kergaye That’s right. Tiffany Greene Will you share some of the names of the people that were part of that community back then. Do you remember? Sandra Kergaye What do you think? Lana Kergaye The Basha’s were here a long time, they don't live here anymore. Sandra Kergaye [0:29:40] 10 No, they moved away. Basha, I don't know what their last name was? Lana Kergaye I think that was their last name. Sandra Kergaye Was that their last name? Lana Kergaye Yeah. Sometimes, it was just like auntie and uncle as a kid. That family that went to Texas they had, Sandra Kergaye Texas? Lana Kergaye They had a lot of kids. Rahab was here. Sandra Kergaye Yeah. Lana Kergaye For some years, he helped a lot and his sibling stayed here. You would know, let me think, Banu, Auntie Banu? Sandra Kergaye Sweets and salty shop. Isra Habib Oh yeah. Sandra Kergaye Sweets and Spice. They’re Muslim Lana Kergaye The current owner of that would be his uncle. He was here in the 70’s. In fact, before they opened the store, it was first opened in his garage in their backyard. Tiffany Greene The store that you opened? Sandra Kergaye [0:30:48] Yeah, that’s how it came about. 11 Tiffany Greene Tell me about that? Sandra Kergaye Our neighbors, Lana Kergaye This was in Sugarhouse. Sandra Kergaye They lived just a street or two away from us. And there was another partner who went to California and he sort of dropped out. But they were running a little grocery store from the garage, Middle Eastern products like that. Lana Kergaye I think it kind of just start with a friend saying, “Hey, where can we get this or that?” Sandra Kergaye Yeah. Lana Kergaye And, “Oh, we’ll pick up an extra bag of rice, or especially people who wanted to get meat that was slaughtered in Islamic way. It's like a more ethical way of slaughtering. So, I think people were asking how to get zabiha. Sandra Kergaye That’s right, and when he had to move to California, this sort of fell in our hands. So, that's when we went and opened this little grocery store, over on Ninth South. Lana Kergaye And that was open to the public. Sandra Kergaye That was open to the public, and it was called Dar Es Salaam. Lana Kergaye Which means House of Peace. Sandra Kergaye [0:31:50] 12 So, we sold out there. My husband even went as far as going to Moroni, I believe there's a large turkey business there. He would go there and then he would start cutting the throat in Islamic way, with the words and everything, and they would freeze up and kill these turkeys like that. Also, we went to another place where they would slaughter a cow our way, Lana Kergaye Or a lamb. Sandra Kergaye And we’d wrap it up and package it and we'd sell it in the grocery store. Plus, a bunch of other stuff in the store. Lana Kergaye Yeah, they’d have spices and lentils. All this stuff you take for granted now: hummus and tahini and olive oil, things that nobody ever even heard of, and now it's like on every menu. Sandra Kergaye Yeah, they all love the food [chuckling]. Lana Kergaye Yeah. Tiffany Greene Luna Banuri, who has helped us get this project up and going, she had a special interest in the prayer circle at the University of Utah. You said that that was in the student’s village? Do you know more about that story or the role that your husband played in that? Sandra Kergaye Hum, I don’t know. Lana Kergaye Well since, Sandra Kergaye Go Ahead. Lana Kergaye You correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of the Muslim families that came as students were in the Village. You had to be a student to reserve the East community Village, or the West Community Center for an evening or an event. So, growing up, we were there every week, it felt like, for a potluck dinner or Eid festival or lecture. We would have events there frequently. Different students were reserving it. Like, that’s where Munthir Kahf, they lived there at the village. 13 Sandra Kergaye [0:33:54] Who did? Lana Kergaye Kahf, Sandra Kergaye That’s right, Maysoon and Munthir. Lana Kergaye They lived there for however many years he was doing his PhD. Sandra Kergaye I love her. She was so pretty, she was so impressive. Her dress and her scarf, she had it out of chiffon and it was draped and the draping was so beautiful. And she wore the long coat and the long length. She was like an angel [tearing up]. Lana Kergaye Yeah, a really nice family. Sandra Kergaye I talked to her recently on the phone. Lana Kergaye Did you? Sandra Kergaye And I said, “Is this Maysoon?” [tearfully]. And she said, “You are always in my heart.” I thought how nice that was, that we were so close. Lana Kergaye Her daughter’s son was at camp with my two kids a few weeks ago. Sandra Kergaye That’s nice. Lana Kergaye And her son and my older brothers were really good friends. Sandra Kergaye Yeah. 14 Lana Kergaye [0:34:54] When's the last time you saw Maysoon? It's been years since you've seen her, huh? Sandra Kergaye It’s been a long time, yeah. They came to California for a couple of months, and she called us. Lana Kergaye That’s nice. Sandra Kergaye Yeah. Of course, now we have this large mosque over on the west side. Lana Kergaye That new one that opened. Sandra Kergaye Yeah. And what's that one, Lana Kergaye Kadeeja? Sandra Kergaye Khadeeja Mosque. Lana Kergaye Yeah, that’s been a while Sandra Kergaye There was the brother who almost financed that one. I don't remember his name. Lana Kergaye Yeah. Sandra Kergaye Anyway. Lana Kergaye We used to have women's Halaqa for years and years and years. Sandra Kergaye Oh yeah. 15 Tiffany Greene [0:35:46] Tell me about that. Lana Kergaye That was neat. Sandra Kergaye That little Mosque on Seventh East and, Lana Kergaye But before that, remember, Sandra Kergaye Before that? Lana Kergaye Remember, we had them in the Village. Sandra Kergaye In the village? Lana Kergaye There was maybe six or eight women who lived in the village. And we would drive every Friday, Sandra Kergaye Oh, we would drive to their house, to their apartments Lana Kergaye Every Friday evening, we would drive and we would meet in one of their apartments. It was really nice. We would have an hour lesson, a combination of a little bit of Quran, a little bit of Hadith, that's lessons from the prophet’s life. Then we would socialize after. They all had a few kids and they were in and out of the apartment at the playground. Sandra Kergaye It was like one big happy family. Lana Kergaye Yeah, it was really sweet times. Sandra Kergaye It really was. Lana Kergaye [0:36:31] 16 I look forward to that, I was a student then. Sandra Kergaye Yes. Lana Kergaye They, probably all of them, just had one car. Sandra Kergaye Probably. Lana Kergaye So, I think the men just met in one of the guys' apartments, they would go and visit. And we would be in one of the women's apartments. Sandra Kergaye Yeah, I don’t think the men and the women got together. Shareen, Shareen, Lana Kergaye Oh yeah, she had that little girl that was so cute. Sheeva was her daughter's name. I can't remember her name. For years we met there before the mosque. Sandra Kergaye Oh, yeah. There was that little thin gal? What's her name? Lana Kergaye Abir? Sandra Kergaye But there was another lady. Lana Kergaye Not Deann? Sandra Kergaye Deann or Deanna, yeah. Lana Kergaye Oh, and Umu Lutfi, Zeanub was there. Sandra Kergaye Yeah. Yeah. He's in town now, her husband? I haven't seen him yet, but, Lana Kergaye [0:37:26] 17 But this one family from Libya, Zeanub, I think she had four kids at the time. So, they're in a two bedroom apartment in the Village with four kids. Have you ever been in those apartments? Sandra Kergaye They’re tiny. Lana Kergaye The kitchen, all the appliances, it’s just tiny. It's like you're playing house in there. Good God, they would bring the entire lamb or goat they slaughtered. Sandra Kergaye Yeah, that’s right. Lana Kergaye And she was in there, cooking. Sandra Kergaye Cooking up the meat. Lana Kergaye I just don't know how she could do it. She had four kids, she was always nursing a baby. I always remember her nursing somebody and cooking. She would come up with these dishes and was a phenomenal cook. Libyan foods, amazing! I just don't know how she could do that. Sandra Kergaye And they always had company there, too. They were so giving. Lana Kergaye So generous and kind. She went on to have at least three more kids. Sandra Kergaye They went back to Libya. Lana Kergaye And her kids are just, I mean, I was like in my early twenties… Sandra Kergaye She had all boys. She had like five boys and one daughter. Lana Kergaye Oh, and she would sew! She would make her little girl the cutest little, Sandra Kergaye [0:38:39] 18 Fluffy dresses. Lana Kergaye Like little ballet costumes, so intricate. That was astounding. I always think of her when you see these huge homes with kitchens enough for a chef to prepare, or a caterer and they never used them. And she would cook like you could not believe in no space. Phenomenal ability. Sandra Kergaye With kids making noise and whatever. I mean, she was just a trooper. Lana Kergaye Yeah. And she was always smiling. Sandra Kergaye Always friendly, always wanted you to come in and stay. She made really delicious dough with cookies, Lana Kergaye Oh yeah, that one cookie. Sandra Kergaye And breads. She was fabulous. Lana Kergaye And her soup. To this day me and my sister-in-laws are always trying to imitate what we call Libyan soup. That's just her soup. I have no idea if the whole country makes this Libyan soup, it was just hers. But it was so good. What a skill. What an amazing person. She had a hard life. Those are just like the stories of these women, incredible women. Deanne had two or three children, one with very severe learning disabilities. Her husband, who was Palestinian, wanted to go back to Palestine and they did to a very, very remote area: Ramallah? No electricity, no running water. His family lived on an olive grove. Intermittent letters back and forth through a different friend, Susan, Suzanne, Sandra Kergaye Suzanne, yeah. Lana Kergaye The Israelis bulldozed down their olive trees. I think they lost their home. I mean, just tragedy after tragedy. I think it really cost her a lot of mental, I mean, I don't think she's very stable. I don't know what really happened with her. But some of those times were just really sweet. You can't recreate it. A small group, maybe eight women, ten women would rotate. Sandra Kergaye [0:40:56] 19 Just a small group. Visiting your friend, Hannah. She was her little best friend when you were younger. Lana Kergaye So that's the beauty of this tiny community, you're very close. But it's hard and they always leave. Hardly any of these original people are here. Then that meeting moved to the mosque on Seventh East. I think a lot of women just were not in the village anymore. And we need a more centralized location for more people to go to. Sandra Kergaye They must have moved out. Their husbands got done with their degrees, so they had to move on. We’ve still got that little mosque there on Seventh East. It was a little church to begin with. Still looks like a little church. Lana Kergaye We started going there for many years. Malaysian students were here more often, we would pick up some of the Malaysian student women who wanted to go to the mosque. I’d stop at the U and pick them up and go, and they would attend. And they would move on, that’s just the flow of, Sandra Kergaye It’s just like that, yeah. Lana Kergaye Events and people and things change. Tiffany Greene You mentioned that mosques were created mostly by language. As this community of Muslims in Utah started to grow, did you go with other mosques to do other community events together? Was there a sense of a Muslim community amongst all the different mosques as they started to expand? Sandra Kergaye I don't remember that we did any more than just what we were used to going to the same place. Because some were divided by language. Lana Kergaye We attended different things. We would go to the Bosnian mosque for Ramadan. Since dad is known with so many, we get invited to different ones. Sandra Kergaye My husband became the marriage maker, to be married our Islamic way. He had the seal of doing this, you know, the approval. He's performed a lot of marriages for people. Of course, there’s marriage, and then there's death, also. We have a cemetery that we go to called Crescent Cemetery. There's lots of Bosnian people there and Muslim people and other people. My husband has bought plots for all of our children and their spouses. So, we're all in a row together in our hereafter life. 20 Lana Kergaye [0:44:26] It’s like the needs of the community, he just sort of had to fill in where needed. So, he learned what was necessary. It's not like it’s complicated to learn how to perform marriages, but there's a certain commitment and you have to register with the state. He tries not to do that anymore. But he's done, I mean, I’ve attended dozens of them. Sandra Kergaye My brother who is non-Muslim, of course, he asked me about our burial. Our burial service, I tell him, it's not like the traditional American way. We don't have a service and that kind of thing. We have what you call a graveside burial. And he really liked that idea. Because we bury the person almost the same day they have passed away. So, the bodies are washed, they're wrapped up in clean sheets without seams on them, and put them into a cardboard or a wooden box. Because we believe in going back to the earth, not to be in a heavy-duty metal coffin type thing. Then we go there, and we say prayer for the deceased, and they bury them right there in front of us. So, he rather liked that idea of not going through funeral service. It kind of draws it out, makes it more sad. Anyway, he liked that. Tiffany Greene You've talked a lot about how your husband was a leader and a community leader, and I would love to hear your role that you played in all of these types of things as well. Sandra Kergaye Well, I don't know that I have a role. I’m just, I'm just there [chuckling]. Lana Kergaye You did a lot of hosting. Sandra Kergaye Did we? Yeah, we've had people come and stay at our home. People from the Middle East come over, the scholarly type people. We hosted a lot of people. Of course, he performed marriages and then there's the death part. Lana Kergaye You traveled a lot to attend things. Sandra Kergaye I've done a lot of travel. Lana Kergaye Since it was a priority to, my dad's focus was to have us not feel like we're the only kids in the universe that are Muslim. Sandra Kergaye [0:47:22] 21 Yeah, we would go like hundreds of miles to a picnic. Just so, we can bring them to see that there are other Muslims [chuckles] because we were so small a group. Lana Kergaye Yeah. Sandra Kergaye Actually, I became more interested in Islam when I saw what I saw when we would travel to Denver, say, and my husband, immediately, he walked up to an African American person and they hugged each other. So, I thought, “there's something good about this,” you know? I was very impressed by that. Because here I was so used to the racism that took that side of that thing. So, it really impressed me. Lana Kergaye He told us about when he was at Utah State and he'd met a friend up there, African American or maybe Sudanese, and they went to lunch but they wouldn't serve him in Logan. I don’t know what server, but they wouldn't let them stay. It’s just so contrary to the general kindness, that welcoming he would feel from local Mormons in Logan, but then to have them say you can't even eat here. Sandra Kergaye See now, in Islam, we don't have this color separation culture, we love all people. And we don't have that stigma, like lots of different things. Our friends can be from any country. You look upon them as a brother or sister. You just have warm feelings for them. Right? Lana Kergaye Yeah. I mean, I didn’t ever have that. It’s different. You saw that I didn't grow up seeing a difference, I guess. Sandra Kergaye Yes. Lana Kergaye I was usually the outcast because, Sandra Kergaye Why? Lana Kergaye Well, I would go to camp and be the only white kid. I remember one time, Iffat Quraishi said–this was at a Muslim youth camp in California that this wonderful family started over forty– Sandra Kergaye [0:49:52] Fifty years ago. 22 Lana Kergaye Fifty years ago. So, I was like 12 or 14 and she said, “Someone said they're looking for you and they said they want to find that white-white girl. I knew they must be talking about you.” I said, “O-kaaayy” [laughing]. Sandra Kergaye Yeah, I guess so [laughing]. Lana Kergaye I never thought of myself like that, white-white girl [continue laughing]. Sandra Kergaye There are some good memories. Tiffany Greene Well, how are we doing on time? Are you okay? Are you feeling okay? Are you getting tired? Sandra Kergaye Oh, I’m fine. Lana Kergaye There’s water if you want, mom. Tiffany Greene I have one more general topic to talk about and then maybe just a few wrap up questions. Sandra Kergaye Okay. Tiffany Greene Over the last 20 years, how have you and your family here in Utah been affected by global events? Like the Iraq War or the conflict in Afghanistan, 9-11 or other types of global events? Lana Kergaye I think you were affected by that for more than 20 years, because in 1971, Sandra Kergaye Yeah, it is affecting, because your husband is from one of those countries. You know? Tiffany Greene [0:51:13] What can you tell me about that? 23 Sandra Kergaye Well, his father sent him over here to go to school. I think he was homesick soon after and wanted to go back and they said, “No, you have to stay there.” He did and then he got his degree. He got his professional license, he's a civil engineer, and he worked for UDOT department and he retired from there. He loves this country. So yeah, this has affected us but it’s, what can you do? Especially in his country, when they had Saddam Hussein ruling and killing and putting people in jail and everything like that, people were scared to death. Everybody had to have portraits of him in the house. You have to be careful who you talk to, with people listening and they always have spies around that can overhear. If you say something negative, you might end up in jail the next morning. It’s a concern, he gets concerned when things like that happen. It affects you. Even this hurricane thing, we watch it on television, these poor families living through the hurricane and things like that. I mean, all these things are affecting people. Lana Kergaye Those politics affect not being able to see extended family because they're over there. And it's a little more complicated because you're in a country that has financially supported a dictator that, depending on your politics, gets more complicated because Rumsfeld said this is our man. The CIA helped keep Saddam Hussein in power, which is keeping the population in misery. So, it's kind of, you can't go and visit your family over there. So, he couldn't see his parents or siblings, you know, for decades. Sandra Kergaye Those people in other countries, they're starving. It's not like here. We have a government where you can get social security to a certain age and are provided for. In those countries over there, they have nothing like that. So, if you don't have a job, then what? There's nobody to help you. So, he sent money back home a lot of times. Tiffany Greene Did you ever travel with him to that part of the world? Sandra Kergaye Oh, yeah. I've been two or three times to visit his family. We brought the kids too. We had the two boys first and they were there. At one time I was also pregnant with the third boy. And then, Lana, she went over there when she was seven. And they swooped her up. She had pants and a shirt on. And Sameem, your uncle, right away looked at her and said, “Oh, look how she’s dressed! She doesn’t look like a girl.” They went out and they bought a dress and shoes and everything and changed her. I don’t know if you remember that? Lana Kergaye I remember them buying me a dress, but I didn’t know that's why. [laughing] Sandra Kergaye [0:55:93] [Laughing] That was why. You didn’t look like a girl, you were dressed like a boy. 24 Lana Kergaye With three brothers you're going to be a tomboy. Sandra Kergaye Well, it’s usual plainclothes when you live here, you just pack pants and shirt like that, you know. But they went out and bought her the green dress and the shoes. Lana Kergaye That’s funny. Sandra Kergaye Actually, that auntie, she lives here. She came over. She came over here and she brought her children over here. Her husband passed away and she came here, Parween. Lana Kergaye Yeah. Sandra Kergaye Her father's cousin by both sides, something like that. Oh, his father's brother was the cousins’ parents. So, what do they say? She's a Kergaye on both sides. Something like that. But she lives here and she has grandchildren and they live here. Lana Kergaye I didn't know, but my oldest brother told me a year ago or something. We were there in ’79, and it must have been the last weeks or week, before we left he could hear the bombs starting the beginning of the Iran/Iraq war. You must have heard that, I was just a little kid. Sandra Kergaye I wasn't aware of that. Lana Kergaye That was the last time you could go. Sandra Kergaye Yeah, ’79? Lana Kergaye Yeah. Sandra Kergaye [0:56:38] 25 They have the oil fields over there and the fire is just coming out of the ground. They have a whole section in there with a lot of oil drills. Fire is just coming right out of the ground. I don’t know, it’s hard to live in that country Lana Kergaye Yeah. So, more recent events, I remember as a kid, of course, this is your interview so it doesn't matter, Sandra Kergaye [motions to continue] Lana Kergaye I spent my elementary years through high school...if anyone asked where my parents were from, I would in almost one breath say, “Iraq, the country next to Iran.” There's no point just saying Iraq. They would say, “Where's that?” “The country next to Iran.” And during college years, you don't want to say anything, because it was well known what Iraq was. Sandra Kergaye Did you have a hard time in school? Because she was the only one, she wore scarves since she was 10. Lana Kergaye Yeah. Sandra Kergaye I said, “You don't have to wear it, it’s early for you. You could wait.” “No, no,” she says, “I want to wear scarf so the children I'm in class with now will know me. And know why and when I go to the next level.” Lana Kergaye That’s true. Sandra Kergaye So, she started up very young. She's a dedicated person. Lana Kergaye Well, I was definitely the only one in school, always. And, nobody likes Junior High right? So, it's never a breeze. Sandra Kergaye She was very, very strict herself. Lana Kergaye [0:58:33] 26 9-11 was tricky. I think it's worse if you did not look American. My friends who look more ethnic got a lot more hassled than I did. Not that I didn't get any hassle, but they had it worse, I think. Sandra Kergaye Even I have trouble with my own siblings. I mean, wearing the scarf really seems to put you in another world somehow. It’s just hard for them to understand and it's not easy being different. Lana Kergaye Yeah, that's true. Sandra Kergaye But, we pursue anyway. I’ve had little children look at me and say, “Are you a nun?” Actually, I was in the library one day, there was a lady who was a former nun. She told me, “I used to be a nun. And I really admire you for keeping your own culture and your own dress.” I thanked her for that. Of course, being a nun you're not in the same kind of situation, people accept that, you know. It’s not the same as the Muslim thing, but anyway, I thought it was nice that she said that. I've gone places, and I've had strangers come up, even with your dad with me, and they were congratulating me, kind of, for keeping how you dress and everything. I mean, they actually were really nice about it, you know? Lana Kergaye Yeah, I’d say overall I get much more positive feedback or interaction than negative. Sandra Kergaye Yes. Lana Kergaye I think Salt Lake is more open and accepting because of having a heritage of, I mean, Salt Lake was established because of religious persecution. So, I feel like Mormons are more open or more accepting than other states. I was living in the south on 9-11. I'd rather be here. Sandra Kergaye Yeah, I didn't make it out. I went to the airport…but before we even left the house...we were leaving that day and I saw a plane crash into the building. But I went to the airport anyway. Then, as I got in the airport, cancelled, cancelled, cancelled, everything was cancelled. She's back in the car going and I called her to tell her to come back, pick me up. There's no planes, everything’s cancelled. So about maybe three days later or so…Or a week…we made it back. She was in South Carolina, it's a beautiful state, South Carolina. Tiffany Greene Well, as we finish up our interview today, do you have any final thoughts or reflections that you want to share about being a Utah woman, Muslim woman in Utah? Or any final comments or thoughts about anything we've talked about today? 27 Sandra Kergaye [1:02:04] I think if you're strong in your faith, everything else is irrelevant. I mean, you are who you are and you're strong in your faith. You just carry on and you do what you have to do. You are not going to disown it or anything. That's kind of my view of it I guess. I don’t know if that sums it up or not, but, Tiffany Greene Do you have any advice for young Utah people that might find that they have similar experiences to you? Sandra Kergaye The whole thing has changed a lot since when I was…so, you don't have this thing. People are more tolerant. They're knowing different countries, different languages, they're more tolerant. I don't think you probably have any problem anymore. I mean, with different faiths and things like that it’s changed. It's gotten easier to live. What do you think? Lana Kergaye Could be, could be. It's hard to know people's experiences in different ages and places. I don't know. I would assume, but I don't know. Tiffany Greene Isra, did you have any other questions or anything you would like to have on the record as we talk with Sandra today? Isra Habib No, thanks. I’m good. I really enjoyed listening to everything that you had to say. It made me emotional. Sandra Kergaye Give my salaams to your mom. Isra Habib Ok I will. 28 Oral Histories of Utah Women from South Asia, North Africa, and the Middle East A Better Days & Utah Muslim Civic League Collaboration Funded, in part, by Oral History Grant 21.01 from Utah Humanities and Utah Division of State History Project Overview In a state that proudly honors the heritage of its European settler forebearers with a holiday every July, it is important for all who call Utah home to be able to have a history that can be documented and celebrated, if not on the state-wide scale of Pioneer Day, at least in the state archives and in their own communities. Compiling a historical record that is centered on Utah women from Middle Eastern/South Asian countries is unique and unprecedented. It is also vital and time sensitive. This project is a necessary step in ensuring that the voices and stories of Middle Eastern/South Asianwomen are recorded, archived, and shared before we are no longer able to ask these women for their stories. The COVID 19 pandemic has brought into sharp focus the reality of losing loved ones and valuable community members whose stories and historical knowledge cannot be replaced once they pass on. As a result, there is an urgency to document the stories of the older generations who have either first hand knowledge experience with or second hand knowledge of the first families to move to Utah from Middle Eastern/South Asian communities across the globe. Additionally, as 2021 marked the twenty year anniversary of the 9-11 attacks, it is important and necessary to amplify voices that can provide accurate information about and portrayal of Utah’s Middle Eastern/South Asian communities and to ensure that this information is available for the public to engage with. Of particular interest and importance, this project records, perhaps for the first time, the unique and nuanced personal experiences of Middle Eastern/South Asian women who call Utah home and contribute to the strength of our local communities. The scope of this project will provide valuable insight into the lives of Middle Eastern/South Asian women and give voice to their experiences, thus counteracting widespread misinformation and misrepresentation of what these women value and how their communities value them. The framework for interview questions revolves around 3 main topics: life prior to coming to Utah, life in the first years after moving to Utah, and life after establishing a community for themselves here. Better Days, in partnership with Utah Muslim Civic League received funding from Utah Humanities Oral History Grant program to conduct interviews with 10 women of Middle Eastern and/or South Asian descent who currently live in Utah. The purpose of these interviews is two fold: first, to share stories of Middle Eastern/South Asian women who live in Utah, and second, to uncover the history of the first generations of Middle Eastern/South Asian women to come to Utah. The interviews were conducted over a 14 month period, between August 2021 and October 2022. Isra Habib, student fellow at Utah Muslim Civic League, coordinated primary interviews with potential candidates to explain the project and share interview questions. If the potential candidate wished to participate further, she also arranged for a secondary interview, the audio 1 and transcription of which are included in this collection. Members of the Better Days team conducted the interviews, Isra being present for most of them. One of the interviewees was not from a Middle Eastern or South Asian background, she grew up in Bosnia, but was able to speak to the community of Muslim women in Utah when she arrived here in the 1990s. Two women have lived in Utah their entire lives, but married into families of Middle Eastern or South Asian descent. The other seven women came to the United States/Utah from the following countries: Afghanistan, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia and Pakistan. Upon completion of the project, a community event was held to share content from the interviews with a larger audience. Luna Banuri and several staff/volunteers from the Utah Muslim Civic League created visual/audio aids for the event. Luna also served as moderator for a panel discussion with a few of the interviewees: Lily Alavi, Shehnaz Ali and Meliha Fezjic, with Shehnaz Kudiya attending in the audience but not participating in the panel. The event was held on November 1, 2022 at the Draper City Library. Approximately 85 people attended. 2 OH 21.1 Project Participants Project Managers Luna Banuri – Executive Director, Utah Muslim Civic League Tiffany Greene – Education Director/Community Engagement Coordinator, Better Days Isra Habib – Student Fellow, Utah Muslim Civic League Interviewers: Rebekah Clark–Historical Director, Better Days Tiffany Greene–Education Director/Community Engagement Coordinator,Better Days Isra Habib–Student Fellow, Utah Muslim Civic League Katherine Kitterman–Executive Director, Better Days Interviewees: Lily Alavi Shehnaz Ali Meliha Fezjic Wan Ismail Maysa Kergaye Sandra Kergaye Shehnaz Kudiya Makay (last name withheld) Niloufar (last name withheld) Lauri Patel Lana Qader Transcription/Formatting Grace Chipman–intern, Better Days Margaret Kitterman–volunteer, Better Days Tiffany Greene – Better Days Toni Pilcher–intern, Better Days 3