Oral history interview of Eric DeCaria, conducted by Tallie Casucci (audio and transcript)

Eric DeCaria (b. 1974) was born and raised in Ogden, Utah. As a youth, Eric spent time hunting, fishing, skiing, and climbing. Eric moved to Moab in 1993 and worked as a climbing guide and carpenter. Eric quickly started soloing and developing routes and boulders in Mill Creek, The Horn, Black Table, Indian Creek, and other areas. Eric is known for his bold style in development and using minimal protection. Over the years Eric has gone on multiple international climbing expeditions to China, Tibet, India, and Pakistan. Eric now lives in Colorado with his family and continues to be a mountain athlete and carpenter.

ERIC DECARIA Nederland, CO, and Salt Lake City, UT An interview by Tallie Casucci October 10, 2022 Rock Climbers Oral History Project -1- Zoom bot 00:01 This meeting is being recorded. Tallie Casucci 00:05 Good evening, it's October 10, 2022. I'm Tallie Casucci and I'm talking with Eric DeCaria over Zoom about their experiences rock climbing. So to get started, Eric, do you mind introducing yourself and telling me a little bit about what it was like growing up? Eric DeCaria 00:25 Eric DeCaria, I was born in Ogden, Utah, in 1974. Growing up in Ogden was, I guess that's what I knew. Most of my childhood was kind of based around fishing and hunting and skiing. Were kind of my main hobbies back then. And then I started climbing in high school. And that was kind of the beginning of that. Tallie Casucci 01:07 For hunting and fishing and skiing, were you doing that with your family? Or did you have some friends? Eric DeCaria 01:15 Yeah, mostly with family. And then, I actually wanted to be, I kind of wanted to be an extreme skier, when I was before I before I started climbing. So Tallie Casucci 01:31 What do you mean by extreme skier? Eric DeCaria 01:36 Well, just kind of, I don't know, you would call it just kind of there's like these extreme skiing competitions, where you just ski down super gnarly faces and jump off cliffs and do crazy stuff like that. So kind of like watching a ski movie, basically. But then, I started climbing and I was instantly basically just became my sole focus right away. Tallie Casucci 02:20 Why do you think it became your sole focus? Eric DeCaria 02:24 I think I really enjoyed kind of the mental and physical aspects of it. And I was really drawn to the fact that it's really kind of you against yourself. And I also enjoyed the psychological part of it too. Just being able to like kind of control my, my thoughts and my feelings. The fear the kind of like, kind of all the things that go along with the climbing aspect. Tallie Casucci 03:15 Do you think your experiences with hunting and fishing, kind of that mental side of things, helped with climbing? The persistence, maybe? -2- Eric DeCaria 03:26 I think in some ways, it probably did. Just being outside being kind of being alone in the mountains. Yeah, just kind of experiencing that aspect of being outside where you kind of go to like a really cool place and go hike into a lake or go fishing or hunting, you just end up like hiking through the mountains, you're not really on like a trail or anything, but kind of like choose your own adventure. And I feel like I saw that in climbing as well. Where, obviously you're just repeating other people's routes, then it's not quite the same, but Tallie Casucci 04:22 I guess then you went on to do a lot of development work as well. So that kind of plays into that idea. What was the climbing scene like in Ogden when you first started? Eric DeCaria 04:38 So when I first started, it was in it would have been 1991 and there really wasn't a climbing scene. Well, there was a super small climbing scene. It was kind of like Brian Mecham and another friend of mine, Bryce Warren. Were kind of the two people that were like the climbers, or at least they were, the climbers that I knew, I mean, the Lowe brothers had climbed there. And there were there was like the super old climbing history, but they were kind of the two that I kind of looked up to when I first started out. So Tallie Casucci 05:31 What type of climbing were you doing? Eric DeCaria 05:35 So when I started out, I kind of just did everything bouldering sport climbing, traditional climbing. And I also started soloing right away. Just I don't I guess I was super back then I was super drawn to that aspect of climbing. Tallie Casucci 06:00 What drew you to free soloing? Do you think Eric DeCaria 06:07 I think I just really enjoyed the experience of kinda like having all the all the cards and in my own hand, just being I guess, hard to explain but just the feeling of being 100% free and being able to being able to like make super like solid decisions and feel really I guess feel really connected to my body and my mind and Tallie Casucci 06:57 Are there any specific climbs that stand out you from those early years? Eric DeCaria 07:13 I guess from my early years I free solo like a route on Castleton Tower, and then some routes in the Needles in California probably probably, the Needles in California maybe stand out. Just because at that point, I haven't like I hadn't traveled a ton of places. So like the whole grading thing was still pretty -3- new. And that routes, there are pretty stiff for the grade. So just decided, you know, I'd be like, Well, I'm gonna on-site solo this route, it's only rated 5.10. But then the routes are pretty hard for 5.10 So Were you there with other people or was this a solo trip? No, I was I was there with with a friend. Bob Novellino. The first time I went there, and I actually that all kind of started from two of my really good friends who were kind of like my heroes at the time who I climbed with a lot. Tom Gilje and Dan Osman, so Tallie Casucci 08:59 Yeah, didn't Dan do a lot of soloing as well? Eric DeCaria 09:03 Yeah. Yeah. Tallie Casucci 09:08 Do you think that was part of why you were drawn into it as well having friends doing that? Or did you do it before you'd met? Eric DeCaria 09:20 Yeah, I don't know. I think I was I think I just kind of really back then I just really enjoyed it. And I think it was, I think it was a big part of making me a way better climber too. Luckily, I didn't push it too hard, too fast. So Tallie Casucci 09:58 Definitely. Sounds like you're no longer free soloing, what was kind of your decision making process? Or Eric DeCaria 10:10 I think, so I think I eventually just kind of realized that I was never going to be able to push myself as hard free soloing. And so I got really was more. I wanted to basically be more, pushing myself all the time, and had a couple friends die free soloing. And so I think I kind of saw one the mortality and then and two just the fact that I kind of wanted to climb harder and harder routes. And so it was like, then I started looking into doing more, more like trad climbing and head pointing or whatever. I don't even know what people call it anymore. But I saw that as more of a way that I could push myself even though sometimes the routes were just as dangerous. But Tallie Casucci 11:22 It seems that you appreciate the danger and the big decision making process? Eric DeCaria 11:34 Think what I really enjoyed most of all was kind of leaving the least amount of stuff on the route. So I'm definitely not against bolts. I've drilled bolts on my routes and have nothing against it. But like, if it was like my world, and I could create like the perfect crag, there wouldn't be any, there wouldn't be any bolts, it would just be a crack. So -4- Tallie Casucci 12:14 How has that ethos impacted the your development? Maybe that's changed over the years? Can you talk about that? Eric DeCaria 12:24 Yeah, so I feel like in there, in my younger years I was pretty psyched on kind of like every route was going to be different. So they didn't all have to be scary. They didn't know have to be dangerous. But I guess the way I saw the line determined how I ended up like if I made it safe and what some people consider not safe. Seems like in general people were wanted me to put more bolts on my routes I guess for me, it was kind of like a painting. I kind of saw it as like, here's the canvas and I've I've also always done routes ground up I've actually never abseiling it so sometimes it depended on where the hooks or where or sometimes it's like full on aid climbing just to get the bolts in. Or I was always I was actually fine just top roping things too with the intention that if I didn't want to lead it somebody else probably would in the future Tallie Casucci 14:03 Have you seen that happen? Eric DeCaria 14:15 I mean, I guess a few things I think I mean, it's I feel like it's really hard but it's not like an infinite resource, the rock so at certain times I've chose to kind of express my opinion with the other people and sometimes not sometimes just let it go. In general the the reaction I've gotten has not been super pleasant. So I felt like it's mostly pushed me more towards just letting it be and kind of it's not worth the emotional damage to me. Tallie Casucci 15:20 Yes, I've read about some conflicts, specifically in Mill Creek just outside of Moab kind of a lot of back and forth. Were you involved in those conversations? Eric DeCaria 15:38 Yeah. And, you know, really, I just just wanted to kind of like, preserve the historical intent of the routes, and we did a lot of things. And we were horrible about keeping, like, there's no guidebook like, we didn't really like, like the people that knew were in a super tight group. So it makes sense that eventually people would just see it as an un-done route or you know Tallie Casucci 16:19 Yeah, I guess have people gone back and unknowingly or knowingly added more protection to those climbs? Eric DeCaria 16:29 Mostly just bolted mines that were solos or boulder problem. I guess you couldn't really well more like solos, like really big boulder problems. And I actually actually did ask the first first ascensist to remove the bolts on a couple of the routes that I felt were like, like, for me, it took a lot for me to climb, climb them in that in that style. So and I realize without wanting it to be like an elitist thing, it was just they -5- were like, really proud achievements for me. And I was like, they were like, scary. They were the kind of things that I was like, I don't know if I'll do it, or maybe I will. But usually, if I got super excited about something I couldn't let it go until it was done so Tallie Casucci 17:46 Do you continue to kind of plan that way and be obsessed with a climb until you do it? Eric DeCaria 18:00 Well, so haven't been climbing much in the last five years. So I've kind of actually. I feel like now when I go climbing I have I don't have a lot of expectations. And I've actually enjoyed just kind of doing some easier routes and toning it down a little bit. I still have projects that I'm working on. But it's been interesting to kind of I guess, getting older and I'm not quite as strong as I used to be. So there's there's a lot of things working against me but my brain still thinks I can do whatever I want Tallie Casucci 19:03 So at what point did you move down to Moab full time? Eric DeCaria 19:10 So I moved down to Moab full time in 1993 Tallie Casucci 19:16 Wow, so a few years after you'd started climbing, right? Eric DeCaria 19:25 Yeah, and I kind of got a job working at the Moab Rock Shop which then became Climb Moab which was kind of like the the climbing shop that I ended up working at guiding out of Tallie Casucci 19:47 What did you find rewarding about being a guide in Moab? Eric DeCaria 19:58 I don't think I actually found it rewarding I think it was for me because it was, it was a job and it paid money. And it allowed me to allow me to kind of share. I mean, I did enjoy it sometimes I just felt like, it was like going to work at every other job I had. So but I kind of knew that, like, being a professional rock guide wasn't going to be my thing right away Tallie Casucci 20:38 How did you know that? Eric DeCaria 20:41 Just I could just tell that kind of was a was a job. And I felt like sometimes, like when I was guiding a lot, I didn't want to go climbing, because I was just kind of burned out. So but I did love kind of the flexibility of being climbing guide. So it was kind of a little more random. And was able to take time off certain times of the year. And so had it. There was good and and then the things that I didn't like as well. -6- Tallie Casucci 21:27 It was a job. Eric DeCaria 21:28 Yeah, yeah. And I feel I feel like sometimes, or especially back then, climbing in the desert was hard for a lot of a lot of people. Like crack climbing was just kind of, kind of hard and painful. And so. So I sometimes it was almost, I almost felt bad for the people, like they weren't actually enjoying it, but they were enjoying being there and being in the desert, and that aspect of it. But the actual climbing part was just kind of different, you know, when you come from like, a place where you can climb like a super low angle slab and there's holds on the wall to having to like, just kind of jam your feet and the hands in the crack. Tallie Casucci 22:26 Where were you taking the groups of people? And were you having to provide instructions to like, "this is how you actually stick your hand, this is how to think about things?" What was that instruction like in the '90s? Eric DeCaria 22:48 Yeah, so I mean, we would do like groups of people and we would just take them to easily like Potash Road or out on King Creek Boulevard. Just kind of set up a ton of top ropes kind of give a little bit of instruction, but keep it pretty minimal but guiding towers, then it becomes kind of a whole. That's kind of the next level. And so then you're really trying to teach people like how to how to climb multipitch climbs and you know, sometimes you're leaving them at the belay, and then hoping that they do everything right. To get, you know, when you when you tell them to. So a lot of instruction and then a lot of instruction on rappelling back down to because rapping up towers is going up is only halfway. Tallie Casucci 23:55 Definitely. For the people that you take climbing on towers, would you do something easier in town with them beforehand? Or was it while on the tower? Eric DeCaria 24:09 Yeah, usually, that was preferred, but sometimes people would just, you know, they had it set in their heart that they were going to climb this thing. They weren't always honest about their previous experience. I guess. It ended up being a lot of just kind of people wrangling too. Trying to read people and kind of figure out how to explain things. In terms of seriousness, you know, when you take someone up a tower, "okay, you have to do exactly what I say or else." So that usually works pretty well. For me, and really, they didn't have to do much, I would kind of set everything up. So they didn't really, they weren't really, it would be really hard for them to put themselves in danger. But it is kind of funny. Trying to explain some of the idiosyncrasies to people like, "Well, why don't you do this or what to do that?" That's like, really what we're trying to do here is just to be safe and go to the top. And sometimes I wouldn't even let them belay me. I would just, I would just be like, "no, just make sure the rope doesn't get tangled on anything." -7- Tallie Casucci 25:41 How would you do that? Eric DeCaria 25:44 I would just stack the rope on the belay and then solo and then put them on belay and belay them up. I would usually reserve that for people that I could tell weren't really paying attention, like, maybe they weren't that great at belaying, or I felt like they could potentially like, make it harder for me to do my job. So Tallie Casucci 26:21 Did you have a few specific climbs that you would take clients on? Or is it just a smattering of different climbs? Eric DeCaria 26:33 It was kind of all over the place. The Kor-Ingalls and the North Chimney on Castleton there's this little tower in Arches called the Owl Rock that was super popular. And h&r was really popular in the Fisher Towers. Tallie Casucci 26:56 Interesting. Were you also pretty quickly developing your own climbs in that area as well while you're guiding? Eric DeCaria 27:07 Yeah, so basically, as soon as I moved to Moab, I started developing routes in Mill Creek. So basically in '93, '94 was really when I started developing routes there. And I also went to The Horn in 1993. And then kind of got psyched about developing routes there as well. Tallie Casucci 27:43 What excited you about developing routes in both of those two areas? Eric DeCaria 27:48 I think I just really enjoyed the process and the the aesthetics of the lines that I saw there. And just kind of having like a blank canvas to work for. And I was climbing a lot with my friends, Tom Gilje and Dan Osman, Pete Burcheck. And Kevin Chase there was actually just kind of like a group of people. Pete was my roommate, so we climbed in Mill Creek a lot together and we also work together at Climb Moab. Tallie Casucci 28:47 What was it like kind of developing out at The Horn? Just from a logistical standpoint too? Eric DeCaria 28:57 So The Horn is awesome, because back then the roads were horrible. It's like this epic dirt road just to get in there. So it meant a lot of like flat tires and getting stuck and not knowing if we're gonna get back out. But from the developing side, it was awesome. It's like really good hooking because of all the -8- pockets and the routes are really I kind of realized that it was never going to like become like this sport climbing area. So I loved that. So I felt like I could really just kind of like I didn't feel like I had to like hold back at all. I get like run it out as far as I wanted or not. And it would be totally like, you know it wasn't going to catch a ton of flack for versus in Mill Creek, it was kind of like, "oh, man, that's kind of a bummer. And and he made it like too scary for me to climb." So on one hand, it was like, "Well, I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention. But maybe you should become a better climber? If you really want to do that route." Tallie Casucci 30:28 For developing out at The Horn, did you go for long weekends, since it sounds like kind of gnarly to get back there? Eric DeCaria 30:38 Yeah, we would go for as long as we could actually, like a week at one point I was I was basically just able to like, kind of go to The Horn and just hang out and various people would come up and, and climb. And I think the thing that I loved most about being at The Horn was just the fact that it's totally, it was totally out there. Like, back then I didn't have a cell phone. So that didn't really make a difference. But I was just completely disconnected from the world for as long as I wanted to be. And I really enjoyed that. Tallie Casucci 31:38 Yeah, definitely. Have you gone back in recent years to either of these areas? And do you still get that? Eric DeCaria 31:45 Yeah, Yeah, I still go to The Horn a lot. And I was just living in Moab for kind of the last two and a half years. So I spent a bunch of time in Millcreek too. Tallie Casucci 32:02 What similarities or differences do you see in the climbing community in Moab versus early '90s and the past few years? Eric DeCaria 32:19 In a lot of ways, I think it's really good. I would say, Moab has a way more diverse climbing community. And just way more people who were actually climbers, so a much bigger user group. Which I guess can be good and bad, depending on how people interact with the, the places they climb. I would say in the early years, there was a lot more camaraderie. I felt like everybody was really supportive of kind of respecting what other people were doing or trying to I mean, there were there were still strikes back then. Or conflicts between people. But I feel like in general, it was. I, I guess it's it's hard to get from having Your Own Private Idaho to having just like you're showing up to every other sport climbing area in the United States, so. Tallie Casucci 33:50 Definitely, you also mentioned earlier that you did some development work in Indian Creek as well? -9- Eric DeCaria 34:00 Yep. Tallie Casucci 34:01 What was that like in the early '90s? Eric DeCaria 34:04 So that was actually awesome. Because there wasn't really, there wasn't that and for much information about the routes in Indian Creek, other than the plaques, and then I had this one article from Climbing Magazine that was kind of like the topo for Indian Creek. And I actually still have it. So it was kind of just it was really cool to be able to kind of walk around and look at things and not be sure if they had been done or not because you can only see the anchors, so it was fun. I feel like I always loved climbing in Indian Creek. And I still do, but I don't think it's my favorite climbing area in the world. And even back then it wasn't my favorite climbing area in the world Tallie Casucci 35:08 Why is that? Eric DeCaria 35:09 It was fun and I enjoyed it. But I also felt like it's a little bit of like the same thing over and over and over. And a little monotonous and definitely like weather and temperature dependent for the harder routes. And I am also not big on the heat, which is funny because I chose to live in Moab. Tallie Casucci 35:41 That's funny. Who are you developing with primarily when you were doing the Indian Creek thing? Eric DeCaria 35:54 So Indian Creek I felt like it was kind of my friend Bob Novellino, Noah Bigwood. My friend, Tate Reese, who was also a Mill Creek climber, Bernie LaForest. Probably those guys, between Noah and Tate and Bernie are probably the people I spent the most time on there. And then, sorry, my friend, John Barco as well Tallie Casucci 36:34 Were they in love with Indian Creek? Or was it kind of similar to you, "It's here"? Eric DeCaria 36:42 No, I think some of them were totally in love with it. And I don't want to say I hated it. I really do like it. I don't know. Like when I think when I think back to like, what my What, like a perfect day for me would be? Probably wouldn't be going to Indian Creek. Tallie Casucci 37:09 What would it be? Eric DeCaria 37:09 - 10 - It would probably be going. It would probably be going to The Horn. So I'm going to take like a quick Five second break. Okay. Tallie Casucci 37:22 Okay. I'll pause. Eric DeCaria 37:26 Yeah, I Zoom bot 37:27 This meeting is being recorded. Tallie Casucci 37:31 Go ahead. Eric DeCaria 37:32 So bouldering I felt like bouldering was probably one of my favorite things. Or favorite disciplines in climbing for sure. And I think the reason I loved bouldering so much was it was pretty just being untethered and kind of kind of able to view unless view anything is a boulder problem, which is truly what I enjoyed was the bigger lines and bigger boulders, which is one reason why I really loved the Henry Mountains, The Horn and Black Table was just because there's a lot of really tall boulders there. Tallie Casucci 38:26 Sounds that you had a good head for with all the soloing that you did for the high ball boulders? Eric DeCaria 38:33 Yeah. And I think that was where I, where I could take my version of soloing was, you know, doing really tall boulder problems that are basically you're basically soloing but for some reason, I could convince myself to push myself way harder in that arena. Tallie Casucci 38:57 How would you prepare for those, I guess both physically and mentally? Eric DeCaria 39:06 I mean, physically just training camp. I used to campus a lot. Noah I had a woody that kind of built several, and then just climbing all the time. Mentally, I guess. I don't know. I can think of some problems that I would just look at them and be like, I know, I want to do it. Just like today's not the day and then the next day. I know want to do it. Okay, I'm gonna try. And then maybe I wouldn't do it. Or maybe I wouldn't. Sometimes it would just be the kind of thing where it would take me a month. to work up the whatever you want to call up the courage or, or, or just to feel like I was going to be able to do it Tallie Casucci 40:15 Were you rehearsing those on top rope? - 11 - Eric DeCaria 40:19 So some Yes, some No, my preference was to try and go ground up, if possible, but unfortunately, sometimes it would be like rapping and cleaning, it's kind of more of the cleaning aspect I guess. Tallie Casucci 40:45 So normally you'd have to rap to clean it and you'd kind of get a sense of what was up there? Eric DeCaria 40:52 Yep. Or a sense of if it actually went or didn't go. 90% of the time, my preference would be to go to try and go ground up, if I could. Tallie Casucci 41:11 After cleaning and inspection? Or just ground up from the start and not know what's up there? Eric DeCaria 41:19 I think I just, I really enjoyed the process of trying to like, visually, like, see the line, and then kind of connect the dots. And not not have it cleaned up there. And like, be like, strong enough to actually hang there, like climb up, brush the hold, climb back down, climb back up, brush the hold. Which is kind of funny because if I just thought of like, rapped and cleaned it, it would have been so much easier. I guess it wasn't, it wasn't always about it being easy that I loved. So Tallie Casucci 42:06 That's neat. At some point you were a professional climber and getting paid to go on trips and such. How was that transition? And what was that like? Eric DeCaria 42:26 Yeah, so I'm probably the worst professional climber that ever lived. Because I was horrible at doing like slideshows and stuff, because I'm not a super great public speaker. And I'm actually like, pretty, like shy and don't really, I don't really feel like I thrive in the environment of putting myself around a whole bunch of other people and then trying to speak so. But I was I did like, kind of like, doing like the R&D for like at Black Diamond like testing gear. Telling them what I thought helping getting to help design gear with that part was really cool. And Patagonia as well. And then Scarpa. But I had kind of started being, even at a young age, I was already working in the trades as a carpenter. And I mean, sometimes I was like climbing guide, I worked at a coffee shop, and I worked construction. So I basically have just, however many jobs so that I could save up enough money to make it through the offseason in Moab. And then really once once I kind of became professional, the amount of money that I was actually getting paid was basically enough to buy gear really, because going to go into the Himalayas is so expensive. So we would apply for grants. And then the money definitely helped from the companies. And then like the gear and stuff, but it really wasn't enough to even start to go on the expedition. So I would just work really hard doing carpentry and then you know, sponsorships are cool because they would kind of provide the gear for kind of the whole team, which was awesome. And then a little bit of money, but realistically, it just just kind of was pretty small. And I felt like I was okay with that, just because I didn't really want to do all of the other stuff. Like I didn't want to do slideshows, and I didn't really. I didn't even like telling the magazines about stuff I would, that I had done. Really, I kind of - 12 - wanted to keep the media at arm's reach per se, which was, which is good and bad. Jonathan [Knight] and I have actually talked about how, in some ways is detrimental because we kind of didn't share the history. We just kind of assumed that people should know, but they don't. So I could go back in time, I'd probably do it a little bit differently. But Tallie Casucci 45:52 Yeah, I think it's interesting too that the areas that, minus Indian Creek, but Mill Creek, The Horn, Black Table, and Dark Canyon, none of them are really documented, in terms of guidebooks Eric DeCaria 46:10 Yep. Tallie Casucci 46:11 Or even more than a slip of paper that's been passed around friends only? Eric DeCaria 46:21 Yeah, totally. Yeah. And, like at one point, I did some topos for Mill Creek. And I kind of shared them, and then I guess I wasn't that psyched because then other people share them with other people. And it was kind of like, "No, I gave these to you, not for you to give them to everybody else." But I think I think our whole philosophy was just to try and keep it from turning into like, just another, just another place. To try and keep keep it kind of special. Because it's, you know, like Mill Creek, it's a small well. It's not a small area, actually. But it's a pretty fragile ecosystem. And the impact is definitely the areas on my mind, so. Back in the early days, it was basically like, oh, it really be a bummer if a ton of people showed up here because I don't know what the Forest Service like close it down? Or just kind of not really knowing, you know, a lot of unknowns and Tallie Casucci 47:50 For the more recent development, are you more keen to share that information? Eric DeCaria 48:00 So, yeah, but more I feel like more face value. I'm happy to share with people but I don't really I don't really have time to like write a guidebook, or. But I guess we've kind of thrown the idea around of just kind of documenting things a little better, Jonathan, and I with like to Henry's and stuff just trying to like can keep some kind of a some kind of track of things. And we've we've actually done a pretty good job. And Johnny Woodward work to try to make sure that it doesn't get too lost in translation. Tallie Casucci 48:53 How do you document the climbs that you've done in the areas? Eric DeCaria 49:00 Pretty, pretty poorly. Just a notebook and a couple of words. I used to be really into like drawing topos of the routes and and the clips and everything. And then I felt like we started getting like backlogged where we didn't have names for routes. And so then it was just kind of like, come back to it later. So not - 13 - not very well. I'm not very good at documenting things. So I was pretty good at trying topos I kind of liked that. But the rest of it not so much. Tallie Casucci 49:55 Yeah, I've talk to similar people who seems that go through periods of good documentation and drawing out the climbs and the data to less less information. Eric DeCaria 50:11 Yeah, like, like a route in the Trango Valley. That's like, just like, I would probably just rather take a picture and just draw a line on it and say, you know, it goes up this part of the wall, but I also don't want to take too much away from other people's experiences, which is one thing that I felt like is getting a little more lost. Like, I feel like there's almost too much information, too much information sometimes. I mean, it tells you like, all the gear you need, where the route goes. It's, it's almost like having a map, like a Google map for the route you're gonna do. And I actually enjoyed the prospect of kind of like figuring some of that out. Tallie Casucci 51:25 Definitely. What are the kind of bigger expeditions that you were a part of, can you kind of describe those and what still stands out as really meaningful moments? Eric DeCaria 51:46 Going to Pakistan and Trango Valley with my friend Micah Dash. That was probably my favorite expedition. We did a new route on the Cat's Ear Spire. We attempted to climb Shipton Spire. We climbed, just an easy mountaineering route on Great Trango. We tried to climb the Nameless Tower in a day. I think it stands out just because it was really my first big expedition. And it also stands out because we started out as a group of three and our buddy Mikey Shaefer got pulmonary edema. And basically at basecamp, and he had to get flown. He had to get flown out of there. And we hadn't put the you're supposed to like put $5,000 down towards the helicopter rescue. And we didn't have $5,000 we're like, no we'll be fine. So that was, like, started out as a super crazy trip. And then we kind of ended up changing in our plans, because we had originally gone there to climb a route on Uli Biaho. But that happened and then the bottom part of the wall was in really poor condition. And so we just kind of started like we got we got an information from our other friends, Jonathan Copp and Mike Pennings. So we just kind of started like going for things. And we had no hand drill, no pitons, we were just like totally going for it. And that's probably the reason I love that trip so much is because the Cats Ear Spire is probably the only wall in the Trango Valley that doesn't have any bolts or I don't know if it's still the same it's been a long time now, but we climbed this huge 30 something pitch route and not didn't leave anything behind other than cams and nuts to get back down. Tallie Casucci 54:31 Yeah, logistically for that long of a route, how are you managing the gear? In terms of, "oh, well, we need to build rappel here." Eric DeCaria 54:48 - 14 - Yeah, so we would do we would first we would try and find things that we could sling. That was the first choice. And then we we would the first guy would rap on two pieces or whatever and then the second guy would rap off one piece which is kind of sketchy but that's how you get off of a big wall with with the rack that you have Tallie Casucci 55:16 Did you have equipment to hand drill? Eric DeCaria 55:20 No, we didn't take any actually. I mean, we have taken it on other routes but that route in particular we we had decided that we weren't going to take anything Tallie Casucci 55:39 Were others at that time during similar kind of tactics? Eric DeCaria 55:45 Well, yeah, Jonny Copp and and Mike Pennings had done a route on Cat's Ear Spire and they also didn't didn't leave any bolts or pitons. So we know we were like, "well, we can't because now I totally just be like, against the rules," but they were our they were our rules. Tallie Casucci 56:13 Were you and your friends discussing these rules? Are they kind of just unspoken? Eric DeCaria 56:23 I think it was mostly unspoken. I think it was I don't think anybody really, I don't think anybody really cared that much either way. Like if you know for you would have taken a hand drill and drilled the bolt. There would have been fine. It wouldn't have been fine with me. Tallie Casucci 56:51 Why wouldn't it have been fine? Eric DeCaria 56:57 I always wanted I always wanted to feel like I kind of like stepped up my game and rose to the occasion. Kind of wanted to I'm sorry, I'm just grabbing a cord to plug my computer in. So for me, it's about like, kind of bettering myself to the experience, even if that meant it had higher consequences. I mean, I definitely had moments where I was like, "Oh, no," kind of way out there at the end of the rope, with no gear and just like kind of get the extreme sense of like I'm barely hanging in there by like, a thread. Tallie Casucci 58:04 Did you have any close calls? Eric DeCaria 58:08 - 15 - Yeah, I mean. Definitely, quite a few. Where I felt like I either pushed myself too far or just kind of overestimated the outcome. At one point, I was climbing pitch in Pakistan and I'd kind of traversed across these kind of like snow hammocks. It's like kind of like these pieces of snow and ice but we're kind of just frozen on these ledges and I had gotten to the end of the pitch and there's just like a 15 foot section to a ledge that it was covered in ice and we didn't have any ice gear. So I was basically like, down, I have to down climb this pitch, and I totally never planned on doing that and it started out okay started down climbing. And then I traversed across a snow ledge and my shoes are wet and then started down climbing the next kind of slabby section and totally slipped and landed on the next snow hammock and my friend Mike [last name] was like yelling at me like "what's going on?" And I'm yelling back at him like "Shut up! Don't talk to me right now." And totally like precariously standing on the snow thing then it like cracked and I thought it was gonna like fall off the wall. But luckily I was able to kind of get off of it. I just kind of taken like, a heinous like 60 meter fall into kind of like nowhere. Tallie Casucci 1:00:25 Where did your friends say when they had to follow that? Eric DeCaria 1:00:30 Well, luckily, we decided to go a different way. Because climb this little section of ice, we just decided to go like we just went a different way Tallie Casucci 1:00:45 Are any other memorable climbs or trips that really stand out as meaningful to you? Eric DeCaria 1:01:04 Yeah, so, and then I did a trip in the Garhwal in India with Zack Smith. And we didn't actually end up finding anything, but it was memorable, memorable from the standpoint of just learning about like, how the whole system works, because we had, we'd gone with the objective of climbing the Kedar Dome. And the conditions were kind of poor for the route we're looking at. So we asked if we could try and climb something else and at first they were like "no, you can't." And then we finally talked our liaison into this well, "we'll pay another peak fee if we actually climb the route." And on so we tried a route on Bhagirathi and we kind of went climbing alpine style and a storm came in, so we went back to base camp. And it snowed like three meters or something that night, something crazy amount of snow over and it was a few days long the storm and then the weather broke and we went back up in this perfect bluebird weather window and we were so excited. And we had left two packs on this ledge one with climbing gear and one with some food and fuel canisters and we couldn't find our pack with the food and the fuel canisters the avalanche had just totally like taken it away and then at that point we're just like "oh man it's like solid day back to base camp" this is like totally sucks but it was a good reminder that climbing alpine style is definitely not not a sure path ever. Tallie Casucci 1:01:32 How would you prepare for these bigger expeditions with super long objectives but also having the snow and the ice all this stuff that you don't get a ton of in Moab? Eric DeCaria 1:03:54 - 16 - Yeah, so I would I would Salt Lake and go to Colorado and go ice climbing. I climbed a lot in the Rocky Mountain National Park and just go to places like The Elephants Perch or more like just the Alpine rock areas because that's really what I wanted to climb were the big the big Alpine walls. And sometimes I actually wasn't super wasn't super into like always preparing for a trip other than just trying to be like healthy and excited. And it felt like I had to do like a zillion pitches or do certain things it was more just have a good head. Kinda be like be present in the in the place where you're going Tallie Casucci 1:05:01 Yeah, seems that you have a history of kind of "rising to the occasion" type of mentality. Eric DeCaria 1:05:10 My friend Noah, and I used to joke, I was like, I could go from being like the worst climber in the world to the best climber in the world, and there was no rhyme or reason to it. So I felt like a lot of my friends were really like they have like a really, like, we would train and they, they would get better and better and they would have like a real even trajectory. I would train and I don't know, some days, I think it was probably more a mental thing for me. Like I was never lacking physically. It's easily I think it was just if I could actually pull my head together. Tallie Casucci 1:06:03 Was that hard for you sometimes? Eric DeCaria 1:06:08 I think it was because it was hard to compare myself to other people. And kind of wonder why it was so different for me. But then I guess it didn't care that much. Because I knew that when I was on point, I was on point and I was doing things that not very many people would ever do or be able to do. But I don't feel like I ever really sorted that out by it was that way other than I think it was purely a mental mental side that had to break through the mental part Tallie Casucci 1:07:05 Have you discovered tricks in terms of breaking those mental barriers that you try to use when you're just not feeling it? Eric DeCaria 1:07:21 I guess yes. And no. Making sure that what I'm the things then that I like the routes that I want to climb and really things that I want to climb definitely helped. Basically, if I wasn't psyched, I just wasn't psyched. That was I think that's really where a lot of it stemmed from but if I if I had kind of like, if something was aesthetically pleasing to me, the line, the route, whatever the place where I was, and that was that was really what drove me was to kind of do those things and if it was something that somebody else was psyched on and they wanted me to be psyched on it that usually didn't work super well for me. I mean, I was I was really happy for them and excited to support them I think for me personally it was like if it was my vision then I was truly inspired and I really never did well at like people wanting me to repeat their routes, or because they wanted they wanted to know how hard I thought it was or what I what I thought of it. - 17 - Tallie Casucci 1:09:06 Were there discussions when you were developing in terms of picking lines and kind of dividing them amongst friends and having conversations about who gets to try it first or who has first first dibs on a line, any conversations along those lines? Eric DeCaria 1:09:37 There was very like very little there if there are a few things where people bolted them people bolted routes and wanted to kind of like have have like first right as a project or to redpoint the route. For me, I felt like a A lot of times we ended up kind of like putting itself as kind of a team. So kind of be like me and Tate, or me and Bernie, or me and Noah. And so there really wasn't. It was just basically whoever's turn it was. It really didn't even matter who actually did the actual first ascent. Because it was the experience, the camaraderie of establishing a route. Tallie Casucci 1:10:37 That's really cool. So can you talk to me about the international rescues that you were a part of? Eric DeCaria 1:10:52 Yeah, that's, uh, gosh, that's a really tough one actually. Tallie Casucci 1:10:57 Yeah. Eric DeCaria 1:10:59 So my roommate and best friend, Micah Dash, and my other really, really good friend Jonathan Copp. And their photographer Wade [Johnson] were in China, kind of on the border of Tibet, in the Minya Konka. And they just kind of like went silent for a couple of weeks. And eventually, Wade was supposed to make a flight to take some camera equipment to go somewhere else. And so, my friend, Pete Mortimer called me and said, "Hey, what are you think? Wade didn't show up. What are your thoughts?" And basically, I was, I wasn't sure at first. I thought maybe they've just gotten like a really good weather window, kinda kind of gone for it. But then I was like, it's kind of weird. That Wade didn't check in. And it's been a couple of weeks. But there were actually people in basecamp, that, you know, they have Chinese, like, their translator liaison, whatever you want to call their people in their camp. And they basically hadn't heard or heard or seen anything. At that point, I was like, "yeah, that doesn't sound. I mean, it doesn't sound good." So basically, they asked me if I would go there, and kind of figure out what's going on, because the Chinese didn't really want to, like do anything. They wanted to just kind of like, I think they were nervous about handling the situation properly. I'm not totally sure what, what the deal was. So this all happens at like two in the afternoon. And basically, by nine o'clock that night, I'm driving to the airport, to fly to San Francisco to try and get a Visa to go to China and figure out what's going on. And at that point, when we got to San Francisco, the some Chinese climbers had taken a picture of a body and some avalanche debris. And then it kind of became apparent. It was a worst case scenario. And they really didn't want to give us the Visas because it was the 20 year. It was like a 20 year reunion of the Tiananmen Square incident. And they knew that we're going to kind of be traveling close or autonomous autonomously in Tibet, even though really it's China's, this was in China. So it was a huge fiasco, just to get the Visas and then we flew there. - 18 - Tallie Casucci 1:14:39 You and Pete? Eric DeCaria 1:14:41 What's that? Tallie Casucci 1:14:42 You and was it Peter? Eric DeCaria 1:14:46 So it was me and Nick Martino and then Steve Su and Pete Takeda also ended up doing this. And we, so we got there, we had to deal with a ton bureaucracy with the Chinese government. And then we got up to base camp and the team just totally fell apart. Emotions, and I think the finality of them being our super close friends. And I kind of took on the role as just kind of, okay, it's, it's not the time, like, we can't do this right now. So I kind of ended up basically shutting off all emotion and just kind of going into like, this dealing mode. And luckily, my friend Steve Su kept it together pretty well, too. But the Chinese government also made us take the, these kids from their Alpine Club with us on this rescue. And that was really hard because I didn't want anybody else to get hurt. And they were basically like, "No, we have to go you don't understand. It's, you know, it's like, we just have to go". So it's like, "okay, gosh, this is crazy," like trying to watch out for all these people. Two of which are my really close friends, but they're just like, totally losing it mentally. And then trying to trying to deal with bodies of your friends and kind of just get them out of the mountains and then we're didn't have anything to do with the bodies. And then their parents weren't sure what they wanted to do with it. Basically, we're like no we have to cremate the bodies like now like they don't have, they don't have more, they don't have refrigeration, we can't just keep waiting. So it was really really intense. And I felt like to this day it's still like something that I think about a lot I still get super emotional about it. And I I also have it was really hard as well because we actually never found Micah's body. It had become apparent that if we kept going up there somebody else was going to get hurt. Because at one point we had gone up and brought one of the bodies down and then by the time we got back up there and that new avalanche had already covered our tracks and there was rock fall and it was really just not stable and not a good place to be so Tallie Casucci 1:18:25 When did you give yourself the opportunity to mourn and grieve? Eric DeCaria 1:18:59 Probably for the rest of my life. Yeah, it's it's hard to look back and say what, what I could do different? I don't know. I mean, I think what's really hard for me is Micah was my best friend you know we had always like promised each other like if something happens to me make sure that you have to like you had to deal with. So that one that one sticks sticks with me pretty hard actually. Just from having to make that call. I understand the logic. I mean, it's logical. It's not really worth, not really worth, but for but. I mean, I do feel grateful that I got to kind of send them off in some ways. But it was way more of a it was it was just really intense. I think going into the experience somehow that it was a rescue mission, and then to quickly know that it wasn't, it was really just a recovery mission. - 19 - Tallie Casucci 1:20:43 At what point did you realize it was gonna be a recovery? Eric DeCaria 1:20:49 Basically, once we got to San Francisco before we even flew to China, because the the picture that the Chinese climbers have taken in the body, I could tell it was definitely probably them. Because there wasn't, the area they were where they were, there wasn't any any other expeditions out there. Kind of just knew right away. Tallie Casucci 1:21:20 What were you thinking about on the flight there? Eric DeCaria 1:21:27 Oh, my God, what am I doing that I just left? I told the people I work with, "Um yeah, so I'm on a flight to China." Yeah, so just what the hell am I doing? And I mean, on the on the, on the flight, I definitely knew. I was prepping myself. Like, it's gonna be really, really hard. It's really gonna suck, but you got to keep it together. This isn't. This is serious. And yeah, you know, going into the mountains, it's like they just died where you're going. So trying to make sure that I was on point and that I was really making rational decisions and really try and be aware of the surroundings. What was going on? How I could mitigate it? Tallie Casucci 1:22:37 Yeah, definitely. Eric DeCaria 1:22:38 At one point, I had to be like, "Okay, Nick and Pete, you guys just go down you can't be here." Like they're both like, just sitting in the snow crying. It's like, really? Like, we can't do this right now. I know. Like, it's hard. Like, I want to be in your shoes. Like, emotionally. I want to be there too. I just can't do it. So. Tallie Casucci 1:23:14 Yeah, it sounds like it was incredibly unsafe too, the conditions. Eric DeCaria 1:23:20 Yeah, it was horrible. It was just really bad conditions wise. And it was in the area where the avalanche had happened was in a super constricted gully. So there was really no, no escape, or there were no safe zones at all. So you're just totally exposed and there was constant rockfall. And just like other hazards constantly going on. And at one point two of the Chinese mountaineers had just kind of wandered out into the, into the avalanche debris. They were like probing the snow even though you couldn't really probe it. It was like the size of the avalanche was like gargantuan. It's like football fields of debris. And this rock fall came down and I'm like yelling at him, like, "Oh, you got to, like come over here," but they didn't understand. So there was like, a language barrier. But luckily, there was another kid from the mountaineering club who was Tibetan, and he was awesome. He was like, totally like, right - 20 - by me the whole time and he ended up kinda when other when people were like breaking down emotionally, he helped me like get the body pack and get it put in a sleeping bag and just get it Like covered up so it was you know, that seemed to help, even though it didn't, just kind of took the took some of it away I guess visually for some people. Tallie Casucci 1:25:28 When you came back after that, did it change how you approached climbing or your friendships? Eric DeCaria 1:25:42 Yeah I think it was really hard to kind of come back and Micah and Johnny were both people that I planned on going on, on trips with on exhibitions with. It was hard to kind of be like, Well, okay. Those plans are changed. And I think it took I mean, it definitely took a huge emotional toll on me to where I just wasn't that psyched on climbing for a little bit it was kind of kind of more psyched to just like start doing some things that were not quite as not quite dangerous. [To son] Yeah, buddy, sorry. Sorry my five year old is talking. Tallie Casucci 1:27:13 That's fine. [laughs] I think Noah Bigwood, during his oral history, they were potty training, so that's a fun read. So maybe beside climbing, Jonathan Knight mentioned that you have other outdoor pursuits. Do you mind talking a little bit about those? BMX, mountain biking, skiing, hunting or fishing? Eric DeCaria 1:28:02 So I felt like the China thing kind of segued into getting back into fly fishing actually. It's something I really, really love. And I kind of loved it growing up as a kid. And so kind of got back into that. And I got super into ski mountaineering actually, which I really enjoy as well. And then mountain biking. And spending more time like hunting and fishing, I guess. And I think it really it's really good for me to kind of have some other things besides climbing this point in my life. Because I think that for so long, it was just like a single focus climbing, climbing, like climbing was everything. And to be able to kind of take a step back and do some of the things that I love to do before I started climbing has brought me a lot of joy. And I also remembered why I like, those things too. Tallie Casucci 1:29:39 A little earlier you talked about doing construction and being a carpenter. Can you talk about being a carpenter and kind of what draws you to this art form? That I find very cool in terms it's a great an outlet for you. Eric DeCaria 1:30:00 Yeah, I was, I was horrible at school. I barely made it through high school, didn't really go to college, I just knew it wasn't my thing. And kind of started working in the trades as a carpenter. And, really, it's, I felt like it's suited my personality really well, to where I can be hyper focused and creative. And I enjoy working with my hands. Being able to visualize kind of the process of putting something together, which I feel like I got, I got things from climbing helped me in like carpentry and I got things from carpentry that helped me in my climbing too. And I really enjoyed building new houses. For a long time I did kind of furniture and cabinetry kind of did various different stages of construction. And now I'm kind of more - 21 - focused on doing these kind of more custom homes and building things that I'll never be able to live in, but I still enjoy building them. So Tallie Casucci 1:31:38 What have you taken from climbing into being a carpenter and like vice versa, specifically? Eric DeCaria 1:31:47 So I think early on, I realized the visualization concept of being able to kind of like, really look at things and kind of put them together in my head before actually, like with carpentry, before I actually built something, being able to kind of see how it all needed to get together and how it was all going to work and and then in climbing, I would kind of kind of learned to kind of have more of a process and be able to like kind of like slow myself down a little bit not get too too hyper focused on like, like if I was trying a hard climb that get focused on just the redpoint. But to pay attention to the process of doing the climb. I think that helped me in my climbing to not get super through remember that it wasn't about just doing the climb, because the process of doing the climb. And then I realized that from the standpoint of you know, I've spent so much time and energy into doing a climb. And then you do it and then you're like, "Oh, no, what's next? Now I need something else." Tallie Casucci 1:33:22 That's really cool. How are you balancing your climbing with all these other your fishing and hunting, ski mountaineering, plus the job you have, and your family life and personal time? Eric DeCaria 1:33:43 Yeah, so I haven't I haven't been climbing much lately. It kind of kind of kind of ebbs and flows for me. I guess I felt like I'll go climbing what I wanted feeling it and I'm trying not to force it. I felt like other than going to The Horn climbing is pretty low on my priority list. But for some reason, that place I still feel pretty drawn towards it. And I have some routes that I'm working on that I'm super excited about. Even though I shouldn't really be climbing because they're hard and I'm probably not going to be up to them until I force myself to train a little bit and then taking Sage our five year old son I'm excited to share it with him and so we'll take him I'll take him bouldering. I don't want to like force it though. I want him to either want to do it or not. It's fine for me if he does or doesn't get psyched on climbing. Tallie Casucci 1:35:06 Yeah you have many other activities that you enjoy doing outside, so Eric DeCaria 1:35:13 Yeah. And I think that's really what it is. For me, it's just being outside I really enjoy ski mountaineering in the same way as that, that I enjoyed climbing but, but like having a family, I've definitely toned that way down, just because it's pretty dangerous sport in of itself. Hunting is pretty safe. It seems pretty safe. For the most part, I mean yes, everything has its challenges, but Tallie Casucci 1:36:00 Driving in your car! - 22 - Eric DeCaria 1:36:03 I'm actually horrified at driving in my car. Tallie Casucci 1:36:06 Yeah! Eric DeCaria 1:36:07 I really don't. Especially in the city as soon as I get into a city. I'm like one of those people that people are honking at. I don't understand what they're doing, or I don't understand their whole system. Tallie Casucci 1:36:27 Yeah definitely. What's the biggest challenge you see facing the outdoor recreation communities? Eric DeCaria 1:36:44 I mean, I think the environment and the environmental impacts that are happening right now are going to be challenges. Having climbing and other like things like backcountry skiing, be having such big user groups and just more and more people using the areas I think it's the impact is getting really I don't know hopefully, hopefully there's some good mentors out there for the future generations. I've tried to share my my knowledge with some some of my younger friends hopefully that has an impact. I really wish that they were more [missing word?] climbing that understand that it's a personal sport. And it's hard to tell people why or why not or that my style is better than your style and all all the things that go along with having rules and regulations. And hopefully, I really hope a lot of the smaller climbers will remain to be climbing areas like access, they'll have access to climbing or be allowed and. I mean, even in places like the Henry Mountains, I see way more like ETVs and ATVs, just different user groups and it's really hard to say you shouldn't do that. Because everybody's entitled to kind of have their own experience out there. It's definitely changing. I do have strong disagreements with leaving fixed ropes and that kind of stuff. I don't really agree with that. Tallie Casucci 1:39:47 What impact you hope to have on the climbing community? Eric DeCaria 1:39:59 I guess ultimately, I hope to inspire people to be their best selves and be the best climber that they can be. And have style, like style matters to me, so that other people are inspired to have style in whatever they choose to do, whether it's climbing or skiing. I mean I feel the same way about hunting too, it's like it's kind of a it's a really big deal to me to take a life. So I try to have the utmost respect for the animals and my process and how I interact with them and fishing as well. I mean, sometimes I'm totally fine just looking at that animals and not not taking a life. Or you know, sometimes I go fishing and I don't really fish that much, but I'm on the river. But I do yeah I guess I always hope that I can inspire people to like, want to be just like they want to push themselves and become what what are they want to do what's important to them and I felt like I've had the chance to mentor some some younger strong climbers and like I have a lot of respect for what they've done. So maybe a small piece of me rubbed off on them. Tallie Casucci 1:42:26 - 23 - Is there anything else that you'd like to share that we haven't talked about already? Eric DeCaria 1:42:49 I guess just that I feel really lucky to have met the people that I've met in climbing in my travels especially like my real life best friends Noah, Jonathan, people that I still spend time with in and out of climbing. I hope that someday or I guess I enjoy the fact that I can look back on my climbing and feel good about what I did. And that I met like my like climbing goals, even though now they don't seem that important to me, but back then they're really important. And I do have hope that trad climbing will take over again, but we'll see. Tallie Casucci 1:44:13 That'd be very neat to see happen. Eric DeCaria 1:44:17 Yeah. Tallie Casucci 1:44:18 There's pockets still. Eric DeCaria 1:44:21 There is and I do sport climbing. I don't want to back on it too hard. I just like there's all this really cool gear and Tallie Casucci 1:44:36 It's so light now. Eric DeCaria 1:44:39 I know. It's like it is so crazy, even in the last 10 years how much it's changed. I mean, we were basically climbing alpine style with no sleeping bags. You know, like we wouldn't pack anything. And now like how light the gear is on like, we totally could have brought like this like, we could have brought like the sleeping bag and we would have been psyched. Tallie Casucci 1:45:11 The climbing experience would be so much more comfortable now. Eric DeCaria 1:45:15 Yeah. Yeah it was a fun learning process there just to kind of like see like how far you can actually push it. But it was totally miserable, like sleeping, like shiver bivy, just like sitting on a ledge at 18,000 feet is just horrible. And it just kind of wrecks you. Tallie Casucci 1:45:56 Well maybe there is some of the feedback you gave the companies back in the day, they've been able to implement changes over the years, so the next time you feel like shivering on a ledge you can not have to. - 24 - Eric DeCaria 1:46:14 Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if I'm hardy enough to do that anymore. Tallie Casucci 1:46:27 Well is there anything else you'd like to share before I stop the recording? Eric DeCaria 1:46:34 I don't think so. Tallie Casucci 1:46:36 Well, thank you so much, Eric. I appreciate it. Eric DeCaria 1:46:39 Yeah. You're welcome. - 25 -