Oral history interview of Matty Kastellec, conducted by Tallie Casucci (audio and transcript)

Matty Kastellec (b. 1991) grew up in New York City, attending high performing public schools, including the Fiorella H. LaGuardia High School of Music & Art and Performing Arts for trombone. In addition to school and music, Matty remembers enjoying climbing with his Uncle and gymnastics. At the University of Michigan, Matty eventually studied International Studies, which taught him about power and systems of oppression. Matty moved to Salt Lake City in November 2019 and quickly made a few queer friends before the pandemic lock-down. Matty discusses the impact of the pandemic on his life and relationships. Before moving to Salt Lake City, Matty attended the Salt Lake Climbers Alliance's Climbing Festival and became involved with the Justice, Equity, Diversity, & Inclusion (JEDI) Committee, as a result of summer 2020 and a letter to the organization to take action. In 2021, Matty and Rue Zheng relaunch Salt Lake Area Queer Climbers' meet-up with great success. With Lea Hernandez, they continue to host SLAQC meet-ups, events, and collaborations with other queer groups. Matty hopes to secure non-profit status for the group and to continue to lay the foundation for a robust queer climbers community.

MATTY KASTELLEC Salt Lake City, UT An interview by Tallie Casucci September 26, 2022 Rock Climbers Oral History Project -1- Tallie Casucci 00:01 Good evening. It's September 26, 2022. I'm Tallie Casucci and I'm talking with Matty Kastellec, at the Marriott Library in Salt Lake City about rock climbing, and his experiences as a leader of the Salt Lake Area Queer Climbers, SLAQC, and a member of the JEDI committee for the Salt Lake Climbers Alliance. So to get started, Matty, do you mind introducing yourself and telling me a little bit about where you're born? What was like growing up? Matty Kastellec 00:31 So I'm Matty Kastellec. I use he/him pronouns. I was born in Manhattan on the Upper East Side. And then a hospital called Mount Sinai in 1991, and I grew up in Manhattan. And, yeah, which is a weird place to get into climbing. But I was lucky enough to have an uncle who's one of the members of one of the original generations of climbers in the '60s and '70s, who lived in Virginia, and who would take me and took my brothers before me climbing, but I was the one that sort of latched on to the sport the most. And so from an era where gyms didn't really exist, so I learned everything I knew as a kid, for the most part, or to start at least outside. And then I started going to one of the only gyms at the time in New York City at Chelsea Piers, which had a couple of different walls, actually. So yeah, I was in New York City kid doing a sport that no one else I knew had ever considered, or really thought about, or really, and most people didn't even think of it as a sport in the '90s. In particular, it was like something some weirdos did in Yosemite or something. Tallie Casucci 01:46 Where did you go climbing with your uncle outside? Matty Kastellec 01:49 That I don't remember exactly. But in the Virginia area, they lived right outside of DC. And so we'd go and visit for holidays often, and usually take us out. I remember there being some roadside crags and you'd usually set up a top rope and hook us up and we had the '90s shoes. And it's actually funny when I started climbing again as adult he sent me some gear from, that he's no longer using, like this really retro pair of La Sportivas that are mid-top kind of bright green and yellow laces, and they're like really cool and I totally blew the soles out twice and I finally retired them. But yeah, I don't remember specifics. I do remember the fact that there wasn't a gym anywhere near them. So he would just take us outside. And I know he took my brothers to the Gunks [Shawangunks] in New York when they were visit us up in New York, but I don't know. I don't recall if I ever went there. But yeah, just different, different crags around where we were, where anyways, for our holidays or family vacations. That's really neat. Did you do other sports or activities? I did some. I remember trying, or being made to try soccer and absolutely hating it. And we would like I'd get dropped off and we'd take a shuttle to this place called. Oh, shoot, now I can't remember the name of it. It's this little island. I remember the name of basically between Manhattan and Queens, where now they do like these big concert and festival things that I can't remember the name of it. But they also have like sports fields. Hated it. And then I tried ice skating a bit because my sister did ice skating. Except really, that meant I had to do ice hockey because I was a boy even though I wanted to ice skating because I liked like Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen, and like all these ice skaters, but that wasn't really like acceptable. And so I didn't really like ice hockey. I never picked up a stick. But I was not good at ice skating. But the other thing I did and actually did at the same place at Chelsea Piers was gymnastics. And so I did gymnastics for a couple -2- years. And I do rock climbing. And I'd either like alternate days or do both because actually, the gymnastics and rock climbing were in the same place at the Chelsea Piers, which was really interesting. Or was for kids, I should say they had an adult wall that was separate. But so yeah, I did. I did those probably the most and the most consistently. And it's funny because now here I am, again, climbing and then I also take an adult tumbling class here in Salt Lake once a week, which is very fun. And I'm very much enjoying relearning, actually learning more than I did as a as a kid because I I never really progressed. I never really did it seriously and never like progressed into really high level stuff. And part of that also, we stopped. My parents stopped sending me around fifth or sixth grade because I used to do that stuff on the weekend. And then my parents bought house in Connecticut, which would be the house they would eventually retired to. So they wanted to spend time there on the weekends. And that meant I had to give up the classes I would do on Saturday at Chelsea Piers. So it's actually about when I stopped climbing and stopped doing gymnastics as a kid and wouldn't start again until I was 24 or 25. I believe so pretty, pretty long gap. Yeah. Tallie Casucci 05:25 That's interesting. Can you talk a little bit about maybe your educational journey? Matty Kastellec 05:33 Yeah, I am a product of New York City public schools, I'm very proud to say that, as someone who works in education now and in public education. And I'm also the youngest of four, which is important because I followed my siblings’ footsteps, very much in education, going back to even in elementary school, I got to go to one of the top public schools, because my brother and my sister went there. And they had a sibling policy, which is interesting, because now I recognized as a major driver of inequity in public education, but at the time was something I highly benefit from. And I also benefited from an era in which there was no attempt basically, to control the flow of the way that taxes and wealth fueled public school performance in New York City and the way that people move to neighborhoods to get into certain schools, which my parents did, to some extent, but they also bought their house in 1970, or our apartment in 1970s something and it was well before the Upper East Side was what it, it was not Gossip Girl in 1970 whatever. Right? It became that over time, but at the time they bought it was still very Eastern European, not wealthy, not really hoity-toity. It was it was very working class. And then it changed over the 20 plus years that they owned. 30 plus years that they owned the apartment that we lived in. But I started at that school was called PS 6. The Lilly Devereaux Blake school, I remember. And then I knew I would go to Wagner for middle school. And Wagner had a band program that my sister was in and she played the trumpet. And so and we really liked the brass instructor. and I remember so that my parents were like, "You should pick a brass instrument." And it's like, "I don't want to do trumpet like my sister because I don't want to be like her. And I don't want to do the tuba because it's too big." So I played I picked the trombone. So I started taking private lessons in trombone in fifth grade. And then kept doing that actually for a number of years, but then in sixth grade, went to Wagner and was in the band program. And that set me on the path to also fall my sister to the Fiorello H. LaGuardia High School for the Performing Arts and Arts, which is one of the New York City specialized high schools you have to audition for it's one of, if not the premier arts school in the country, or it used to be. And so yeah, I was sort of on this pathway towards music. And I got to high school and it's a conservatory style program. And you take three music classes a day, in addition to your six or seven academic classes, as well. So you're getting a regular New York City, New York State regents degree, -3- and you're doing three periods of whatever your vocal or instrumental or art or drama, whatever. So very intense. And I like many people learn very quickly, you learn very quickly whether or not it's going to be for you like whether the thing you're doing is going to be the thing that you want to do, like in your life or for college, for example. And so I knew about sophomore, maybe junior year that I was not interested in going to conservatory. I was not interested in continuing doing music. And that like the, the way that music was competitive was not competitive in a way that was interesting to me, the sort of like rigamarole of like auditioning for seats and the different parts and it took, it also took a level of discipline that was just not at all I did not find motivating. And so around junior or senior year, I'm starting to think about what do I actually want to do to continue my education and I came from a kind of family like it was never a question that I would go to school, both from my parents were, quote, well educated, they both went to law school, they both worked in law. My siblings had all gone to college like it was always assumed I would go to college and I never questioned that. But I started thinking about doing art because it was also something I had done as a kid, not a sport, but something else I had done. I had done a bit of ceramics. I've done a lot of painting and drawing and such. And actually in middle school, in middle school, I kept doing ceramics and I did metalworking and jewelry making actually after school like those are after school programs. I would go to middle school and then actually I had to stop those for the most part in high school just because the schedule didn't work out between my high school schedule and those but around junior senior year I was thinking "Maybe I want to go for art, maybe that's something that would be motivating and interesting to me." And I think part of me didn't want to give up being artistic in some way. So I'm back to some of those classes, I worked on stuff, I did a portfolio class. And I ended up applying to a bunch of different programs, some art schools, some non art schools. And what I was really drawn to were dual degree programs. So my final choices I was really interested in were like University of Texas, Tufts / the school Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. And then where I landed on was Michigan, University of Michigan. And I was I began my journey being dual enrolled in their liberal arts school and their art and design school. And so for the first year and a half, I was balancing, I thought I was be, I thought I wanted to do chemistry and do art and design for whatever reason, mainly because I did really well on AP Chem in high school. And it's like, "Well, that seems like a thing I should keep doing." Turns out, really hard! To do things like I made it to about Calc 4, which is a prerequisite for Chem and then I was like, "I don't think this is for me, I don't think I can do this." So I had I had gone through some art school, it had been sort of a mixed bag of things that I really liked things that I ended up not being really good at, like turns out I wasn't that great at drawing. And turns out, that was also a form of discipline I didn't necessarily have was the the discipline it takes in something like jewelry, for example, to make pieces that you can sell, for example, right if like, that's how you want to make your living. There's a level of perfectionism that I was did not aspire to, I was not interested in. And I made a decision around in the middle of sophomore year, actually, even before sophomore year that if I wanted to do this, I didn't need to go to school for it. Like that's not what I needed to continue for my degree. And so I dropped out of the art program. I kept going for a little bit with Chemistry until I hit Calc 4 and realized I could not. And then I made a sort of split decision to do you International Studies, partially because my sister in law, my oldest brother's wife, Katie, worked for a company called UMCOR, which I don't remember what it actually stood for - United Methodists something something something Relief [United Methodist Committee on Relief]. Basically, an international relief organization. And they had spent some years overseas living in Indonesia after the big earthquake and Akshay Province, where she supported relief efforts. And I thought that seemed interesting. And so I switched to international studies, which is actually very new major at Michigan at -4- the time, it's one of the earliest classes that graduated. Which was interesting, because it meant that there were very few actual required courses, there's basically only two or three actual International Studies courses. And the rest was interdisciplinary. So I got to take classes in sociology, anthropology, economics, history, American culture, sort of like anything you want, like a huge, long list of potential courses, basically. And you can pick whatever you'd like, as long as they met, they were certain level, of course, basically. And that taught me and tell me a time because I learned, I basically learned how oppression works in the world, like how oppressive systems like the machinations and mechanisms of oppression and power, and capitalism and all these different isms, basically, through the lens of International Studies, or through the lens of international security, policy and norms, I think, was the name of my actual, like, specialization, whatever. And so I actually, I loved all those classes, and they did so well on them compared to like the struggle that was chemistry, like, I definitely was more suited towards that sort of like liberal liberal arts, sort of style of things. But then I ended up deciding, despite switching majors, I worked so hard, and it took so many classes that actually graduated early I graduate in December of 2012, rather than May, rather than take a study abroad, which I could have done, and maybe should have done, or maybe most people in the International Studies degree would have done. It was not required, interestingly enough for an international studies degree at the time, you did not have to do a study abroad. But I really liked Michigan, I really didn't want to leave. I had a partner, I'd started seeing long distance who lived in New York, so I didn't really want to be away. But I also didn't want to move back to New York yet. And so what ended up happening was I interned I randomly got a job as an intern at a very small youth program development organization after school program evaluation outfit just down the road in Ypsilanti, Michigan and called The Weikert Center for Youth Program Quality. Just wanted things like on the student employment website, it was just looking for something to get some cash. And sort of knew I wanted to get into nonprofits but wasn't really picky. So I was like, "sure that sounds cool." And that job, that internship, I ended up doing through the spring, and ended up being connected through them to this other organization called Education Pioneers, that works to place people with analytic backgrounds and education organizations, which I was not qualified for at all even a little bit at the time. But I was industrious. And so I looked through every single one of their partner organizations for jobs that were open. And mind you, this is 2013. So just coming off of the recession and the crash and things being better, but still sort of iffy for getting a job out of college. I had a lot of interviews. But I got a job at this organization, called the Achievement Network being their first associate, basically doing operations and events and sort of like assistant style stuff. And then I've been at that organization for almost 10 years now doing different worlds and different things. And during that time, I also got my Master's degree in nonprofit management from the NYU Wagner School for Public Service, and sort of like management and strategy. And so that's sort of where I've directed a lot of my professional efforts. And a lot of the expertise I've leveraged in different spaces, including the climbing space is my understanding of how do you set strategy? How do you manage towards goals and success? How do you ground in vision and a mission and values? Like how do you do these things are sort of the fundamental baselines of how to operate as a, as a public service in some way, shape, or form, right? And so some of that I learned by working at an organization that did those things fairly well, all things considered. Some of it I learned in the classroom. And then more a lot of it I've learned in the last couple years, just by doing and, and trying it myself with SLAQC, and trying to share my expertise with other orgs. And so it's definitely been, it was not a not an educational journey, I can think I could have predicted and some ways, not ones that I would choose to redo again, like I don't know, if I ascribe to that belief of like, "well, it made me" like, sure it made me who I am today, quote unquote, but -5- also, I would have loved to not put myself through the stress of trying to be a Chem minor, right? Or the sort of, sort of waste of time of trying Art and Design in college. Like, there are so many things I could have done, if I had had a better sense of self by the time I was a freshman in college and like knew, knew better what I was wanting to do. So like, I know that sort of like, you know, who knows who knows the counterfactual, right? And so in some ways, I don't, I don't necessarily, well, do I regret it? I'm not sure. I think I would, if I was given the choice to go back, I would make different choices, I would not let it play out the same way I think. Grad school I enjoyed and grad school I got a lot out of and I left with a lot of student debt, because NYU is very expensive turns out. So yeah, that's my. And then I guess, other education piece background the last couple, a couple years ago, I did a fellowship with the strategic data project at the Harvard Center for Education Policy Research, which is how I ended up in a role now in that organization. My actual professional role is managing a team that manages data infrastructure and analysis. So I've sort of position myself more in the data end of things which also informs a lot of the work I do when it when it comes to when we're talking about survey designs for community surveys for the SLCA or SLAQC. Or I'm also on the Board for Project Rainbow Utah, or thinking about like, "Okay, what is this grant that we're getting mean that we have to report on? And how will we actually do that?" And so I think a lot of what I see my current strengths are is being able to integrate all of those different things that I've learned either formally or informally and apply them in these varying spaces, whether it's queer spaces, climbing spaces, queer climbing spaces, my professional spaces. Yeah, sort of, in an effort to like continue to give back in some way or sort of like, you know, be able to share what I know in service of in particular, like queer communities. Tallie Casucci 19:47 So fascinating! Sounds like your family had a pretty major role in terms of following in your sibling footsteps. Was there kind of have sense of community organizing or giving back when you were growing up that your into what you're doing now? Matty Kastellec 20:06 That's a good question, not really honestly. I mean, it's some yes and no, my mom was a judge in the Bronx Supreme Court for 20 plus years. And in some ways, there's an element of public service of that, I guess not in some ways, like there is an element of public service now. But it also means that her worldview and mine don't often align in any ways of, you know, she is very committed to a sense of law and morality that is very, like strict, in a sense, are very black and white, right? Of like, well, that's illegal, right? So it's, it's bad or it's wrong, right? And it was her job literally, to enforce that and uphold that. Right. And she has this very particular ideas about like decorum that I think a lot of come from her own upbringing, but also the way you were expected to act in a courtroom. And the way that she enforced was expected to enforce decorum in a courtroom, right. So in some ways, yes, like a sense of that there's a way to serve. But the I think the interesting thing is that all of me, I'm the youngest of four, and we all have ended up in education, actually, in some way, shape, or form. In different ways. My oldest brother is a professor at Princeton. And he studies a lot, but he's on practice law, he studies the Supreme Court, and the decisions they make and applies very complicated math using game theory to it that I do not understand. My other brother, Mike, works for the library system at NC State University. And then my sister is a preschool teacher. And then I work for an education nonprofit. So there, there probably is some through line of like, some messages received around, I mean, definitely messages we received around the importance of education. But I don't always know how much of it was couched in, -6- do this for the public good, or that we have an obligation to give back to our communities. And some of it might just be the nature of growing up in New York City is like you're exposed to the whole spectrum of humanity in a way that is, I did not realize until I left how rare that was right to really understand both the highest of highs of wealth and luxury or to see it, whether or not I access it directly or had it all the time, I have friends who did, and then also to be struck with like abject poverty and discrimination on a daily basis. Right. And, to know, you know, going back to, I've told the story, my work before, I think back to, you know, in middle school, people came from another number of elementary schools. And people who came from my elementary school were more likely to be in the like, special placement, basically, tract higher program. And then there's a bunch of kids I didn't know from a different school who were all in the academic program. And it was significant because if you're an SP the special placement, you got to go to band, which meant you got to get into schools like LaGuardia. But if you're an academic, even then I can almost see a track that they were tracking people to vocational things because you got to do tech, like, see, like, learn to build things. Which is cool, in a way. But I'm also like, Why? Why was your academic performance tied to your elective choices in that school? Right, like, there's clearly more, I think there's clearly more at work there. So I wouldn't have been able to interpret it to explain that as a sixth grader. But I think we all actually innately had a sense of like, there was some division happening on the school and then when it was high school, you could see too, in terms of the demographic makeup of the different majors because majors where you didn't need materials say so like, just but the split between in the in the music department there was instrumental and vocal and instrumentalists were predominantly White, and vocalists were predominantly non-White. And it's very easy to trace a line to - you need access to an instrument, you need likely need access to a teacher to learn enough about instrumental music to get into school, like you have to read music to be able to get in for instrumental you to be able to sight read. That was not true for vocal. For vocal, you had to be able to match pitch basically. But you didn't necessarily have to be able to read music. And so that meant like if you were someone who was just like a good singer, you sang in your church, you sang in your home in your shower or whatever, like you, you could get into that part of LaGuardia and right? But you had to already know how to play an instrument formally, to get into LaGuardia for that. Right? Same with like drama was sort of a mix. It's also the smallest one so maybe not a good example but like some people who may be wanting to act and thought they had some talent versus people who have like, act been acting since they were in kindergarten, right? Or had acting coaches, right? Same with ballet. Ballet was another one to like, like, you or dance, I guess. But like I I believe they specifically looked for people with ballet experience already which right? You might not get, but maybe you have step experience, right or hip hop or anything right, like contemporary. Maybe you just dance to what the music videos that you see on TV or so yeah, again, not a thing that any of us might have been able to articulate in the moment at that age. But I can very clearly look back and identify the moments where like, something you know, like you noticed, we all notice these things. I think that's the thing I think about now is working in education is like adults usually don't give kids enough credit for how perceptive they are. Even if they don't have the language to describe. They usually can tell if something is off, right? Or that they've noticed something even though they don't know why it's happening or what it might mean in the broader scheme of things. Right. But I think we all knew there was a difference. And you could see it. You could see it when the orchestra would play with the chorus behind them. The difference in composition, right? Of skin tone and wealth. Right. Yeah. Tallie Casucci 26:25 -7- Yeah, that seems really impactful on what you're doing now. Matty Kastellec 26:28 Yeah. It is, it is a lot of like thinking about, like I said, I'm really glad I ended up doing International Studies. Because it taught me about ways the world work that people don't usually talk about, or like the you don't learn in high school necessarily like or you learn a sanitized version, right of like, slavery was bad, right? The Holocaust was bad, right? And you learn maybe some things about like how those things happened, right? Or how the way othering people can work. But really being able to pull back, but one just from the American experience, but then two to think about, like, how does that happen over time and space? Like in different places over history? What are the patterns that emerge? I think really helped me see the world differently than I did when I was growing up. Right? Where things were, like I said, things were very, like morally black or white. Right? And very, like literally, like lawful, right? Like, that's like a great way. Like the alignment chart of my family would be like lawful, not even good, like lawful-neutral, right? Like, like perfectly in the middle. Right? And so yeah, it's definitely been interesting, especially, you know, since 2020s, George Floyd, like having interesting conversations with my parents who are now you know, I'm the youngest of four. So they're in they're 70. Right? Or about there. And so, in some ways, very hard for them to change their thought patterns and habits, but also, them having to reckon with what, how they've participated in in systems of oppression. And, you know, what it means for my mother to have been, you know, a person who sentenced a lot of black or brown people to prison, right for things like, pot, right? Because that's what the law was in New York City, or New York State, I should say, has had some of the strictest laws in the country on that, that she was, you know, duty bound to enforce. Right. So yeah, it's been really interesting to have some of those conversations. To also ask questions I haven't asked before about, like our own lineage and how we came to this country, which in some ways, mirrors a lot of people's stories, but it also doesn't because I found out for example, like, my family came on my parents side, my, my father's side came from Slovenia, but like, were relatively well off. Like made the journey like we know from records, they made the journey across the Atlantic multiple times, which most people would not be able to do, wouldn't have the money to do right. So indicates some level of status and wealth to do that. And my mother's side is some sort of Eastern European Jewish ancestry, but came well before the Holocaust, like they came in the 1800s. Right. And they may have been fleeing violence of some sort, but they also set down roots and became pretty successful pretty quickly. In a way that doesn't match a lot of the stories of say people fleeing the Holocaust, right, or fleeing pilgrims in a way that meant they started from nothing, right? So there's actually, even though both my parents grew up extreme, like very working class, and then made it to a level of middle upper middle classdom, that I think they're both very proud of. They, the roots of that success go back generations, right. And that's a way. Like, that's another way of like, understanding how generational wealth works is fairly was fairly easy for me after learning about, like, the systems or structures of like colonialism, for example, right? Yeah, so it's been an interesting couple years in my family. Because also at the same time, we're very much like a typical White family of like, conspiracies of silence run abounds, right, and like, expectations of decorum and niceness are very stringent. Tallie Casucci 31:01 So what brought you to Utah? -8- Matty Kastellec 31:04 Yeah, so I finished my degree, my graduate degree in May of 2019. And around the same time, it was finishing that degree. The person I was living with, and my best friends had decided, had had been working in New Jersey, and decided that it made sense for me to move to New Jersey, we were living in Queens together in Astoria in New York. So she was moving out, I didn't really feel like finding another roommate. I had been kicking around the idea of leaving the city for a couple years once I was done with grad school, partially because I, you know, very logistical concerns of like, it's expensive. And I wanted to live alone. At some point, I wasn't sure I'd ever be able to do that in New York. I've been doing climbing for a couple years, I'd sort of gotten back into that. When I was like, yeah, like 24, 25, after or in the midst of a breakup that ended up taking longer than it should have, because there was some reconnecting and then breaking up again. But basically, I've been climbing in for a couple years and sort of relearned my appreciation for the outdoors and wanted better access for that. And I had also decided around that time that I was going to stay with my organization, like I had thought about leaving or looking for other jobs. And so that meant I already had a remote job before was cool. So like I had been working even though we had an office in New York, my whole team had been the people I've been working with had been remote since probably 2015. 2015 was the first role I had that was a remote role. So I've been working remotely in some way shape or form for a long time. And so I was like, now's a good time, like why not now, right? Like, why not? See what's out there. And I actually planned to take longer to move. I ended up moving here in November 2019. I came in, visited in August of 2019. I did a long trip. A three week trip actually spent about a week here, spent a couple of days in Teton with some friends just hanging out climbing and then I spent a bit of time in Boise as another option I was thinking about. And I had a really serendipitous experience here. That really convinced me because I like I was staying at an Airbnb by 9th and 9th. So I went for breakfast the first morning I was there to Public Kitchen, which I'm excited for it to reopen once they finish rebuilding it. And just like sat at the bar. And you know, it was like chit-chatting a bit and was like overhearing a bit and the barista she was talking about, like planning her wedding with her wife, right? Like or like with her fiancee, right? I was like, "oh my god, queer people tell me what it's like," like, "tell me the tea!" Like, "what is it like here, to be queer?" Right. And then I was wearing my Michigan shirt because of course, a guy sitting next to me turns out he was from Michigan and went to Michigan State and lived there a long time and but he lived in Salt Lake for six years, the guy who owns Liberty Fresh Market, actually, I don't actually know his name. But we end up chatting for a long time about how it compared to Michigan and stuff like that. And I was like, "Oh, what a weird, you know, coincidence," and that it also happened to be I did not plan this but it happened to be the weekend of the Salt Lake Climbing Festival. So before I even moved here, I unbeknownst to myself, become involved with SLCA, because I went to the Climbing Fest and went to a clinic so I got to like see what the Cottonwoods were like and was like, "holy shit. This is only 15 minutes away. What the hell?" Why am I driving two hours minimum to go climb when I could like go do this and when a bunch of hikes, walked around, it was just a great week overall. And so yeah, so I was pretty sure it was the choice I wanted to make. And then I had been I was sort of living in between. I was not quite couch surfing, but living with friends up in Westchester once I moved out of Queens but not ready to commit to new place. And then those friends also decided to move because my friend I was living with got headhunted for a job in Seattle. So then that happened very quickly. And then suddenly, it was like November, and I needed to move I needed to make a decision and move. And so I remember the date specifically, I flew out the weekend of November 7, I had already met with actually a landlord who lived in New York, but rented his place in Salt Lake. Went to -9- his place. liked what I saw, sign the lease. On the eighth before I flew out, I like went to IKEA or I went to Target and went to Lowe's, like a mattress. Like I got some basic so that by the time I got there, I'd have some stuff there. And then I flew back on a Monday, I packed all my stuff and started driving out on a Thursday. So I got here on November 16, 2019. And with everything that would fit in my Subaru Legacy. And that's it. That's not true, I had two bags and a guitar that I had to bring back later. Then I went home for Thanksgiving, two weeks after that, and then flew back with some more junk. And so yeah, what brought me out was like the very sort of typical things like for a couple $100 more, I could afford to live in my own two bedroom apartment, and then have an actual office and be downtown and have an elevator, oh my God, I don't have an elevator anymore, because I was in a townhome. But the elevator was so nice, especially during COVID, when I was like, "Oh, let me stock up on a month's worth of food at a time," and like I would just put that on a cart and bring it up the elevator, a world different, like, the experience I would have had in New York would have been so miserable, frankly, and different than the one I had through COVID specifically. But yeah, I wanted other things. And I also really specifically wanted a place that had some sort of queer community. And I had felt like I'd seen, I'd gotten enough symbols between like the different groups that had already existed in Salt Lake. Before I came here by talking to the people I had met, while I was here that there was both both a communities that existed here and like a lot of actual, like promise, like a lot of demand for, a lot of hunger, I should say for like the type of spaces and gathering and, and things that ultimately, I think we've actually seen, like explode in the last two years in terms of the number of queer organizations and spaces like it's SLAQC is just one of a dozen, if not more different things that have popped up. And so I feel like, I feel like all my guesses were right. And I also came in pretty eyes wide open in terms of like, I knew what the politics would be like. I've lived in a place like Michigan, where in some ways the culture is very similar of people who like might think you're going to hell, but also will be like very nice to you while they're like serving you coffee or breakfast or whatever. And so like I was sort of used to what people were describing as the like, yeah, you might not get like openly harassed, necessarily, but like, like there are places where you won't feel welcome or like you'll be legislated against in ways that are not fun, right. And at the same time, there's also a state, unlike many states, where like there are actual like protections for LGBTQ folks that are not elsewhere at the state level and at the city level. And that also played into my decision because there are a whole states like Tennessee that I was interested in living in a place like Chattanooga, but I was not willing to do that. I was not willing to put myself in that position. So a lot of it's played out very similar to what I expected. The things that I did not expect - no one mentioned earthquakes when I was visiting. And then I got a very rude awakening very soon after moving here. And now I'm that person that has like both human and dog go bags in our basement, should we need them. And the whole, you know, like potentially catastrophic drying of the lake. Also not something that anybody, nobody dropped that in into, like reasons to move or not move here. Although even a couple years ago, I feel like it was on nobody's mind. So maybe not anybody's fault. Although the earthquakes I feel like someone should have said something about. But no. And I guess that tells me what, you know, on the East Coast, you only hear about earthquakes in California. Those are the only ones that are like that's the only big one that matters, so to speak. So yeah, I've been here almost three years now. Both seems like it's been a long time and no time at all. Tallie Casucci 39:39 Now, what was it like when you first moved here, because you only had a few months before the locked down, in terms of building friends and relationships? - 10 - Matty Kastellec 39:51 Yeah. It's interesting to think about it because in some ways, it's always I'm glad I didn't build more, like I built just enough. But I think if I had, I had a lot less to lose than a lot of people. And also, like, you know, I already worked remotely like a lot of my 9 to 5, or like a lot of my day to day did not change during, during COVID. Some things did, obviously. But yeah, there were there are some things I was able to do beforehand. So actually, SLAQC had been founded in 2014 ish by a person named Chris Doman who uses they/them pronouns. And they, they like moved back here after being away. I always mix up our I can't remember the exact history and honestly, I've talked to them. And they don't remember the exact history, either, but I knew it existed. And we had actually, like we met at an event called Homofantastic, which is a big queer climber gathering in West Virginia every year in the New River Gorge, though we did not know that. And so I reached out to them on Facebook, seeing that they were the owner of the Facebook group was like, "Hey, what's going on? Is anything happening? Can we get something going? Like I'm happy to help." And so we've done a little bit, I've met a couple of people through them, done a little bit of meeting events, like there was a queer soup night, I remember, in December of that year that I met some other queer climbers. We hosted our first two meetups in February and March of 2020, actually about a week or two before the lockdown. I remember because we're talking that like, "there's only been one case in Utah, like it's probably fine." And then it was like a week later, it's like "oh shit." And the other thing I had another sort of serendipitous thing that I happened to be able to go to when I was visiting in August, and then kept doing when I got here was a space that's the queer and trans yoga class run by Jacoby Ballard, who he uses he and they pronouns. And he is an amazing instructor. And also sort of like we have some interesting overlaps. Like he lived in Brooklyn for a long time and taught the same class in Brooklyn. He's taught it in Rochester, he's taught it in other places. And so I was taking the class in person at the 21st Yoga, which then closed during the pandemic. And he moved that class and a number of all of his classes online and that ended up being like, a really important refuge for me. So I would go what he had queer and trans yoga class twice a week, I'd go to those and sometimes other ones. And you got to like practice people from across the country. And it was like a really awesome, beautiful space. And then it happened was I had met my partner, actually, the first week I was here. What I like to say was "he was the first, but not the only date I went on" when I got here, but yeah, we met very early on in my time here. And, you know, click to some level, but we're so we were still seeing each other pretty casually, I'd say up until the pandemic, and then we're like, I guess we should like, talk about this or like, probably make this exclusive now that like there's like a, you know, a global pandemic happening, and probably won't be seeing a bunch of other people. So we're one of those couples like got sort of rushed along a little bit in that process. But I'm also very thankful because I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't been able to see him in person, right, like, like, we actually have a really nice set up between, we both had our own spaces still. But like, we'd go spend nights at each other's places, or like we'd go for hikes or walks together and stuff like that. I was also really super lucky that I lived. I live right at the base of the Avenues on South Temple. So I had really easy access to really like good places to walk, like I just walk uphill to 11th Avenue Park. And not like have to worry about like getting hit by like 20 cars on the way. But yeah, I don't know if I would have made it honestly, not like I would have died to be clear or like I don't know if I would have stayed in Salt Lake if I didn't have him as like as sort of, not a tether, but as a like as another physical human to see because I didn't have anybody else I was close enough with that it'd be like let's make a bubble right or that I feel comfortable with. I think it's easy to forget - 11 - actually now how was like scary the first couple months where we're like, we really had no clue how anything transmitted. I remember being scared walking outside, like, like, and so I don't know what choice I would have made like, I don't know if I would have gone back and like found some friends with or would have gone home with my parents, even though I wouldn't have really wanted to. But I think it would have been really easy for me to be like, "Well, this was a good experiment, but, you know, situations changed and gotta go." But I think because I, maybe it sounds detrimental to him but it's not intended to, because I at least had him, right, like I had something to keep me going. And he's also a transplant to the state. He's from North Carolina, which you have a 919 number. He's from? Is he from the Raleigh area or the Charlotte area? Tallie Casucci 41:37 Raleigh, if it's 919. Matty Kastellec 41:39 Yeah, he's from the Raleigh area. He went to UNC. So there's a lot of like he did told me about Utah culture a lot, he taught me just about, like, the hikes that are good and stuff like that, because he's a big hiker. And so yeah, we also, I think we're lucky enough that like, we were the couple that like, left the pan, or like the pandemic, not that it was ending, the year of, of like real isolation. However, do I want to phrase this? Even after vaccines existed, and a lot of people went back to normal life, we were people, we decided to move in together, like we were not the COVID couple that were like, "Oh, we were only together because you had no option, right?" But we actually like, left that phase of COVID and decided to spend more time together, rather than less. Yeah, so it definitely was an interesting experience. Like, like I said, I, I could tell so many other people, my partner included were way more disrupted in their lives. Like I didn't have a lot of structure or friends or like people, I was people, I wasn't already having to connect with virtually in some ways, it actually made it easier to connect with the people I had left behind in New York, right? Because suddenly, everyone was on Zoom, right. And like, my friend group did a weekly zoom every Friday. And we kept like, going for a long time, like longer than most other groups, I think that started doing that did that. So in some ways, it actually like, helped that. And then I also like, didn't, my job didn't change, really, I mean, like the substance of what we're doing change to match the pandemic, but like, I still was working in my office, like, in my home office the way I had been the whole time, right. And I knew things are so much easier, like being able to, to order three weeks of food from Harmons and go have someone put it in my trunk right? And take it on my elevator, right? Having a full kitchen, right? Like having a dishwasher. Right? Like all these things that would have been such a pain in the ass if I had still lived in New York, which is interesting. Like I say, like, I don't know what choice I would have made if I hadn't met Nick, before the pandemic. And I also don't know what choice it was, maybe if I'd been in Queens during the pandemic, like I also don't think I would have stayed there. I think that would have gone with my parents or figure something or gone somewhere else. I don't know. I don't know. So, yeah. Tallie Casucci 47:24 Interesting. So then, SLAQC had the first like post pandemic kickoff and you were the primary organizer, right? Matty Kastellec 47:35 - 12 - Yeah. So Chris moved away. Chris moved to Hawaii during the COVID year. So it was sort of all on me. And then I wasn't really comfortable meeting hosting meetups before vaccines. So some other groups like Color the Wasatch actually got started during the pandemic, and they were doing like the mask thing and all that. And I'm glad they did. And I think that made sense for them. I sort of held out a bit, partially because it was just me. And also because frankly, like, we didn't have a ton of traction before the pandemic. The gym, specifically the Front was interested, but not actually, like, super supportive at the time or like not really, I don't know, if they really understood the sort of like, value add, you could say, or they. I don't know for whatever, a number of reasons, it was harder to get things organized with the gym, before the pandemic. And then one day actually, randomly, I think it was like May maybe I was thinking about it now that vaccines were happening. And so I checked the SLAQC, like email account and realized they had someone from the Front had emailed actually back in October being "hey, the Pride road rallies happening, do you want to do something?" And I totally missed it. Because I was not checking that, that email. And I was like, "oh, shoot, I missed this. But like, let's plan something for June, like let's do a big Pride event to sort of like, kick it off." And like, let's see, let's see if there's demand because preparing them if there was like, five or 10 people that would come to those first few meetings, and I was ecstatic. But I also knew that that was not enough to go off of right, like five or 10 people alone will not sustain a community, right? Like you need a little bit more than that. And so I started playing this event and in my head, I knew like if this is successful, then then this isn't right. Or like something about this is not the right space or something, something would need to be different. But I started planning it working with the gym. And it was actually again very similar very serendipitous moments where at that point I had also been a part of the SLCA, Salt Lake Climbers Alliance, JEDI, Justice Equity Diversity Inclusion Committee, since about May of 2020. This story is gonna get convoluted, but I'll circle back I promise. Some of the connections that I had made through Chris included a person named Lila Leatherman also uses they/them pronouns. And we met a queer soup night. We had done, they invite me a couple things over the pandemic, of like, doing just these little backyard get togethers for like queer climbers' skill share, like sharing, like, how do you tie knots? How do you belay? Or just like on trees and stuff, just doing what we could with the gyms not feeling safe or being closed. And so they asked if I had wanted to sign on to a letter they had crafted with a number of other community folks to the SLCA in May of 2020, basic being like, "hey, you need to not be neutral in this time of racial uprising," quote, unquote, or whatever you want to call it. George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery. Breonna Taylor. Right? Like, sort of the moment the country was happening, the moment a lot of communities are having. And so I signed on to that letter. And then, because of that, they invited those of us who signed on to that letter to join the JEDI committee. Although not without drama, because they originally framed it as you are welcome to apply to the JEDI Committee, which I thought was very belittling, given that we were the only reason, the people who have written that letter were the only reason that the JEDI committee was being formed, right? Because basically demanded, the SLCA take some form of action, right? That they hadn't taken up to that point. Because of that, I met a number of folks, including Lea Hernandez, who was on the Board of SLCA, I met and then the part that's relevant to this part of the story, Jess Powell, who works for Black Diamond as their partnerships and events director. And so she knew that I was heard come up in some conversation other than like, I was trying to get SLAQC up and running. And she was so excited and so helpful and getting that going. So like, they ended up giving us a ton of gears that we could raffle off. So we're able to, like promote it as this really like, fun, special event. Through Lila and those chain of other climbers. I reached out to them and was like, does anyone want to help? Like is anyone interested in doing this thing called - 13 - SLAQC? And that's how I got connected to Rue [Zheng], who uses they/them pronouns, and who was had been at some of those meetings that Lila hosted. And they came on and helped me plan that first event. And we basically were end up like, we reached out to a ton of local queer, like, artisans and makers, and they had a bunch of folks that donate stuff. So like, I had actually been connected to Moudi Hob (they/them), who at the time, was still working for Laziz Kitchen. And they, they had come our meet-ups just before COVID, so they donated a gift card. We got some candles from places like Soy Murga, we got artwork from Anna Bugbee. We got tons of stuff again being this huge, amazing raffle, right? And it really was just in the spirit of like, we didn't sell tickets. We just did like, you know, follow us on Instagram, you get a ticket, like do this survey that we're trying to gather information, like you get a ticket, right? Like, share us on your stories, right? Like, like that kind of thing. Like just trying to get drive engagement and get our name out there really. And so yeah, like so much of that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't have met Lila through Chris, if I hadn't gone to those things if I hadn't reached out if I hadn't joined the SLCA Board and then all sort of came together. And I will say like I was sort of hinting at like, the gym also clearly was in a different position or had a different perspective after May of 2020, where I think they were much more interested and it was much easier to work with them is how I'll put it, they're much more excited about supporting us. We're able to get like their communication was different. Like we were just able to move things along a lot faster. And I think it's because they knew people were expecting them to be able to host communities like this or host events, like what we're trying to host and, you know, credit also groups like Color the Wasatch that had been pushing them even before when we relaunched. And so yes, we planned this big event, we didn't know how many people would come it ended up being more than I could have expected, like 40 or 50 people showed up. You know, and they're very few of whom I actually knew, right? Like only a handful people that I like, knew are expected to come. And like sort of, like lore that we talk about now, but it's not made up. It's true. It's like we were you know, chatting with folks. And at the end of the night we're like, "alright, like, well, um, we'll see you all next month." And people are like, "What about next week?" And we're like, "What do you mean? Like we were thinking we would just do this once a month" And they were like "no, we want to, we want to do this more like we want to do this again, sooner." And so we're like, "alright, we'll try it. Like we'll try hosting something next week. And if people come, we'll, we'll keep doing it." And then basically, we've been doing weekly events, minus a handful of like holidays or like, other things. We've basically done weekly meetups or other events since June of 2021. Whether it's at the gym or hikes or other things, so the demand, and we have between 15 or 20 people consistently every week, and a lot of them are the same folks. But a lot of times we get new folks week after week, either folks who haven't heard of us folks who are coming back to the sport, are new to the sport, or new to the city, we've got people, we've had people who've come to SLAQC nights before they've actually moved here or before they've unpacked because they, one of the reasons that they, we are reason some people feel comfortable moving here or choose to move here is because they know that we are community that exists. It was also funny, because people are always like, you know, and I appreciate they're always like very much like, "Oh my God, thank you, you know, thank you for doing this space. Thank you for hosting it." And I'm like, "You're welcome. And also like this was, you know, it was selfish, in a way it was, I too wanted a community like I wanted to know who the queer climbers were, I wanted to climb with those people. And all the work I was doing, was giving back to me just as much as it was benefiting people." And it's funny to people also always think as being like, "Oh, my God, the name tags are so smart." And like, "you're welcome. And also, it's because there's a lot of you and one of me, since I'm usually a lot easier to remember than all of you are easy to remember for me. - 14 - So like I need the name tags too to know who everybody is." So yeah, we've just we've just been sort of like on a roll since then. And there's been so many serendipitous, I keep using the word but like really amazing, unfortellable connections we've made. So I pre pandemic, I'd hurt my back, actually, and I went to see on a recommendation about a clinic, but not even this provider. Because she was new, I went to see a PT whose name is Amy Frugé, who is an amazing PT. And I've been seeing her for you know, since January 2020 when I hurt my back and all that. And then I was talking about getting SLAQC up and going. And it was actually really like, I connected her with Rue, who was doing massage therapy at the time. And I was like thinking about going into their own practice. Then Amy connected to me and SLAQC to Charlie Warner, who runs a consulting business, who like then ended up helping us with like our mission and vision and strategy work and like has met been meeting with us monthly since then, like all these pieces of support and connections that like SLAQC would not have been possible without and they all sort of are like random, like really random in a lot of ways. Like what are the odds that not only someone from BD, on this committee that I'm on, but like the literal person that I would work with, right? Like the person who's the literal job it is to work with communities like mine? Or even like if BD was not headquartered here, right? Like, I don't know, if we would have even gotten up and running right without the type of support they've provided or the interest that having, you know, hundreds of dollars worth of gear to give away. helped with. Oh, yeah, like the PT that I happened to see, right, like that I didn't even really pick I just like picked whoever was open right? Like happened to connect me someone who has been instrumental in our strategy and are like in helping us be thoughtful and smart. Like there's so many moments I could point to. So Rue and I plan that first event and then add that first event, we asked Lea to join us. And we also both knew her separately because Rue knew Lea through Color the Wasatch and I knew Lea through the SLCA. So lots of lots of interweaving that would happen so yeah. Tallie Casucci 59:07 Have you heard the phrase "small Lake City" before? Matty Kastellec 59:11 Oh, yeah! Tallie Casucci 59:12 Has it felt like that? [laughs] Matty Kastellec 59:13 Oh, yeah! In a number of ways. And honestly like the national climbing community is small. Once you get into these spaces of like advocacy or access or these affinity groups, small, small world, like a lot of a lot of there's only a handful of people doing some of this work so you get connected to them really quickly. But yeah, the small Lake City definitely in terms of. Like even now like Rue's roommates are good friends with the other PT that now works in Amy's practice, who actually only knows Amy because Amy came to, Amy did a little warm up clinic for us at one of our meetups and one of our members, Liam is friends with this other PT, Joe, and he was like, "hey, this woman Amy seems cool. You should talk to her." And now Amy and Joe run Converge PT and at one like Best of Salt Lake City, so like SLAQC made that happen. But yeah, definitely, it. There's so many moments like that, that have been like, oh, you know this person I know this person, like how do you know them or like, and it, it's - 15 - definitely interesting. And also in some ways, I would say in some ways not that different from the queer community in New York because actually the queer community New York, like notorious for being like, "Oh, your ex is dating my ex," like, kind of shenanigans. Like, even though such a big city and such a big queer community often felt the same way that like, things feel here, whether it's the queer community or the climbing community or the intersection of such. So, yes, I have heard the phrase, it's definitely true. Even things like I went to, I was at a conference for my fellowship, the strategic data project. And there are presenters from the Utah State Board of Education. One of them I knew, because she was the fellow but also one who used to be over who used to be the person at the county that the planetarium reported to that my boyfriend, Nick works in planetarium. It's like he knew I can remember name Sarah. I can remember Sarah's last name, Sarah at the State Board of Education used to be I believe that maybe she was a state science specialist. And that's how we worked with her? But I went up there and I was like, "oh, yeah, my partner's Nick." She's like, "Oh, my God, Nick. I love Nick." It's like this random, random things like that. Yeah. Tallie Casucci 1:01:40 Oh, that's neat. Besides actually getting SLAQC off the ground and running full steam ahead, what are some other accomplishments that you're really proud of? Matty Kastellec 1:01:55 There are a couple of things. One, we talked about a lot, but it's still, I'm really proud of we, we did a collaboration with Black Diamond, again, like one of our sort of premier partners, you could say. But it's another actually small world, small Salt Lake connection, in a way, because two of our, our one of our members, and another person who ended up becoming one of our sort of SLAQC folks did a photography climbing photography clinic, through the American Alpine or through Mountain Hardware, and I can't remember now if it was American Alpine, or some other group. And the climbing magazine, anyways, it was run by Nikki Smith, right, a local climbing legend, a huge advocate for our community and a number of communities. And she taught them how to do climbing photography. And they came to us and we're like, we have an idea. And the people, then Lani, who's uses she/her pronouns, and then Bobby who uses they/them pronouns. And Lani and Bobby came to us and said, "We want to pitch to Black Diamond and American Alpine Club, like, what would it mean? What would it look like to take a bunch of queer people out to climb, and have them be photographed by queer people and have that be the promotional shots for a spring or fall, you know, line of things?" And we're like, "awesome, great, like, put the pitch together, we'll weigh in on it, we'll, we'll help you pitch it, right." And we pitched it. And again, serendipity, to Jess, at Black Diamond, and she's like, "this is perfect. We're working on a collaboration with the Venture Out Project, which is a national, nonprofit working on getting queer people in outdoors. They're doing, they're designing this collab merch. And we can make this the photoshoot for that campaign." So our Pride campaign will be featuring merchandise designed by queer people with some of the profits going back to queer people, modeled by all queer people, shot and edited by queer people, right. And we call it SLAQC in the Spotlight. And we were, like, on the homepage of Black Diamond, right? And like all over social media, and it was, I mean, it's meaningful for so many reasons. One, you know, how rare is it still to this day, that not only is it like, this brand has a Pride campaign, but like, who's actually modeling it? Who's actually photographing it? Right? Like, who's actually behind the scenes for that stuff? Who's benefiting from it? Right? And we were going to do that. We were able to bring a group of like 12 queer folks down to St. George. Some of whom would - 16 - never climbed outside before, a number of whom reflected that they'd never seen themselves in photos climbing like captured the way that they were captured with like, such care and that they felt strong, and they felt like climbers in a way that they often were told they were not, right? And so it was meaningful in so many levels like meaningful to show, you know, the industry was possible, right? With a little bit of effort, a little bit of money and a little bit of care, right? To show our members what they're capable of, right, and that they deserve to take up space like this. And it's something I'm really proud of, and I hope we get to do again, it was a really incredible experience. And yeah, other than I mean, we've run a ton of events. We've done some really exciting other collaborations, like we've had an ongoing collaboration with Radical Adventure Riders or RAR. So they've come and taught our people how to mountain bike, we've taught their people how to rock climb. We've done so many, so many things at this point, honestly, it's wild. But I'm also really proud we introduced and it's still in its first year. And there's still things to tweak, but a mentorship program because we know, the traditional means of passing information and knowledge and climbing is through mentorship, traditionally, and there's a huge culture of gatekeeping. And it's only getting worse, I would honestly say as more people who look or are different than what people expect, quote, unquote, to be climbers. In some ways, it's getting worse, right? Because people are like, "oh, there's too many people here." Like, we should limit the access, right. And it's like limit access for who? Right. And people really struggle to access the knowledge that you need to climb outdoors safely, specifically, so we implemented a mentor program, inspired by another group, actually Vancouver queer climbers, who does something like this, and tried to pair folks up by what they wanted to learn to really get folks comfortable climbing outside. And that's been really cool to see, you know, not every grouping has taken off, but many of them climb together all the time now, and many of them are climbing outdoors more now. And that that's the type of thing that I know will be like durable, like have lasting impacts even after the like formal mentor program finishes for that cycle. And it's something that is really tied to the ethos of SLAQC. I think like a lot of our some of our values are things like "queerly designed queerly beloved," which like sort of keep us to make spaces that are like for and by queer people and that are about sharing knowledge, right. Our other our other one of our other values is redefined who climbs right and like, show people that like you are a climber too. And here's here's what that means right. I'm forgetting the other ones. Now. Of course, off the top of my head, redefining who climbs, queerly designed queerly beloved, accountable to the most marginalized. And there's a fourth value, and it's really embarrassing that I can't remember right now. I can't think of it. But it's about sharing knowledge and also changing like the culture of, of climbing. Yeah, maybe, maybe it'll come to me. I can look it up if it's really gonna bother me. But yeah, I think those are the couple. I mean, there's so many things. I mean, honestly, the fact that we still host weekly meetups, and people just keep coming. It's something I'm really proud of. And we've a lot of exciting things coming on the horizon. And the support has just been like if there's clearly so much demand and interest. Like we we've raised more, we've raised twice as much money than what we expected, we would be able to, without really trying that hard, frankly. And that gives us a ton of flexibility that's so valuable for us to be able to make strategic decisions about like what to spend, what to invest in, and be able to afford things like we want to convert to a 501(c)(3), for example. And that's expensive. It's like one of those weird conundrums of you have to have money to become a nonprofit, right? You have to raise money somehow to pay your lawyers to file the forms to become a nonprofit, right? Tallie Casucci 1:09:24 There has to a lawyer that will - 17 - Matty Kastellec 1:09:25 Well, you'd think so but it's enough work that if few few really want to do it for free. We've gotten folks who will definitely give us a discount but it's still a pretty penny. And as much as possible, we're trying to like pay people what they are owed. But yeah, and we're able to do that because we've gotten donations from you know, the North Face from Pattie Gonia. Pattie Gonia, not the brand, but the person, the drag queen. And just from people by like buying our merch or doing raffle tickets and stuff like that. So, yeah, I'm proud of all of it. And it does really feel like we're working really hard to build something lasting, like something that will have the type of structure and purpose and, and all that in place that, you know, the three of us won't always need to be at the helm for it to keep existing whenever we want to or need to step away. Tallie Casucci 1:10:28 Yeah, no, that's great. That seems like you're setting the group up for success. Matty Kastellec 1:10:34 Trying to! I mean, it goes back to like, it's why we want, "Oh, yes, Charlie, help us!" I want us to have a mission, this mission, vision and values, right? We I want us to set yearly strategy. And then we could month we break it down into quarters and said like monthly targets, right? Like, we are operating. Like, were operating with a level of intentionality that I wish more organizations did. And it's because I've seen so many who don't, and that it's so much harder when you don't plan. And it sounds so obvious and trite. But it's like, you have to plan and it takes effort, energy and effort. And it takes decisions that a lot of times people don't want to make, because planning means you commit to something and you commit to reckoning with what happens if you don't meet it. And a lot of people don't want to do that. A lot of organizations, I want to put a stake in the ground of what they will or won't do. But for us, it's really important. And you know, it's not just my expertise there. It's like Lea bringing a communications background and an academic background. It's Rue bringing their experience in being a business person of a type. It's all of that put together and funneled through someone like Charlie who's a great like, question asker and, and just like structure holder for us. Tallie Casucci 1:11:54 So tell me a little bit about the JEDI committee with the Salt Lake Climbers Alliance and kind of your role there? Matty Kastellec 1:12:02 Yeah, so I guess I'm definitely one of the founding members, like I was saying earlier. So we spent up some time around May of 2020. And at first, it really was focused on like, how do we respond to this moment, right? Like, what are the types of things we can do? What are the statements we can make? What are the practices we can put in place? Even simple things, like I heard from folks in our community of like, "hey, like, you know, no one moderates social media comments. So like, when they when you do post, people have marginalized identities, no one's checking the comments for problematic stuff." Like if stories are being used, or just like, why are you even the stuff that's like, not even overt, but covert of like, "who cares? Just climbing," right, you know, like, or, like, "let's just talk about climbing" kind of stuff. Right. And even being able to advocate for us to have a policy as an - 18 - organization of like, how we, how we protect the people that we highlight, right? Because that's always a double edged sword of what's the word? Visibility, right. Visibility is such a like, common phrase, or like common drive, that is thrust upon the LGBTQ community, right. Like, I think about, you know, like, Laverne Cox and the transgender tipping point, right? a tipping point, maybe, but in what direction, right, if we're now that was in 2016, it's been six years later, and we're now facing the most hostile legislative landscape towards trans people that there's maybe ever been, or that there's have been a long time. So that type of thing. We're focused on like, how can we make what SLCA does more accessible, whether that's through like experimenting things like sliding scale for things like their fundraisers or things like Reel Rock, right, which is like a great example of something that if you don't know what Reel Rock is, like, why would you want to pay to go see it right? Or, like, why would you want to go see this thing that might not have anything to do with you as a climber that might not represent you at all if it's just like, burly white dudes, sending hard things right, which is what Reel Rock has been for almost its entire existence until the last couple of years. Right? That's another thing I'm proud of actually, the Reel Rock. We did a we hosted for this year as part of that for 2022. We did a screening of Alex Johnson's Reel Rock film called "Big Things To Come," which is about her sort of grapple with her queer identity and how that impacted her climbing and she was there and we did a panel and it was just a really beautiful night but that's a sidebar. But yeah, with the JEDI committee, we've been really sort of focused on that and you know, convinced the board to do a JEDI audit of their practices and, and things like that. Which has led to things like having some healthy turnover on the Board to bring in some new perspectives and new voices. We hosted our first SLAQC and Color the Wasatch like meet up at the Climbing Fest this last month. So yeah, it's been interesting. And I'd say it's been, it's been challenging a lot of ways. It's challenging when an organization has always claimed in its mission to represent all climbers in the Wasatch Front, like that's the little words of it. And then to have to grapple with, like, what does that actually mean? And like, what are you actually, what are we actually doing to represent all climbers? And are we actually aligned on who is in your brain when you read that sentence, right? Like? Does that mean people just come in the gym? Right? What do they have to gain from the SLCA? Right? Does that mean people who never set foot in the gym? Does that mean people who are new to the state? Does that mean people who want to climb outside but don't know how? Like, like, who's included in that? And what are their perspectives? And how are you actually representing them as one organization or one voice? Right? And it's why like, I've posed the question to the org a number of times, and I still continue to pose it of, you know, are we more about land or are we about people, right? Are we just about rocks? Because if a lot of our expertise lies in in the rocks, and preserving access to them, and keeping them safe, like, there's nothing wrong with being specific in your mission, right? There's nothing wrong with being able to articulate to the public, here's what we do. And here's what we care about. And here's what we're positioned to do, right, there's no shame in my mind of acknowledging what you are not capable of doing right or not well positioned to do as an organization. And so far, the organization feels like it can do those things. But I think there's still a lot more to be done to manifest that. You know, there's still like, little slip ups here and there, that to me indicates, like, the organizations not yet operating as if what we say like JEDI principles like equity and oppression are not front of mind as people go through their day to day work in the organization. They're not thinking inherently in the way that I know is possible from the work I do in an education space where we work for an organization that claims to be or is trying to be anti-racist. And that means like, there's an expectation set that you grapple with these things in every decision you make. And there's an actual policy related to that. And there's some level of accountability. And there's - 19 - also some level of learning provided. And I haven't seen that yet from the SLCA in a way that makes me 100% confident that it will truly become the voice of all climbers in the Wasatch in the way that I define what that sentence and statement means. And I don't think there's an understanding yet of that, by centering those at the margins, you will benefit everybody, right? Which is something I deeply believe in. And that actually I give credit to a lot of the work out of the disability justice movement with things like the cut curb principle, right, which goes back to the idea that mandated that you put curb cuts on the sidewalk for folks who use wheelchairs, right. But it benefited everybody. Whether you had a stroller or whether you had a push cart, if you were giving a delivery if you were a post office person, right, like everybody benefited from something that was designed for people most marginalized. And that's the type of orientation I would like the organization to do. That's the type of organization I aspire for SLAQC to do. And that's laid out in our values and that we try to hold ourselves accountable to. And it's hard because we live in systems that are explicitly not designed to do that. They're explicitly designed to, like they're explicitly designed to marginalize people, for the sake of somebody else, right, or for the benefit of somebody else. And so it's difficult, it's hard, but it's doable. But it takes a level of commitment. And also recognize like the organization is in a hard spot like they're, they're battling a huge battle right now with the Little Cottonwood gondola plans, right? That has major impacts on climbing resources. And it's making very clear that, frankly, like little power we have in the broader scheme of the community here compared to forces with more people and more money, right? There's a lot more skiers in this state, you know, as much of Utah is thought of as a climbing state, or maybe that is by climbers. There's about an order of magnitude more like ski users than climbers. And I think that is showing up clearly in the decisions the UDOT is making. And so like this was a question I posed at our last at that strategy refresh was like, what does it mean to be an organization whose biggest wins might be in the past? And that your biggest failure might be very soon, right? And in the future? And what does that actually mean for how, what your strategy needs to be? How are you durable through that, right? How do you make this movement of access and conservation, the word I use that I definitely steal from someone who I can't remember now, but like, how do you make it irresistible? Right? Like the SLCA is not irresistible to climbers right now. I think people know about it somewhat. Some people know about it. And some people appreciate the work. They might not recognize how it benefits them. Or it might not literally benefit them and might not even be a matter of recognition. They might be climbers who, it doesn't matter what SLCA does, for any number of reasons, right. So it's been a really interesting experience, I've really grateful for a lot of the connections I've made, like I said, like, it's been a world of connections have been opened through that organization. And I try to balance the fact that I'm also new to this context and new to this state, and to the organization. And so there's a lot of history I'm not aware of, but I also know, I think part of why I'm, you know, not to toot my own, I'm good at what I do professionally. And what I'm good with SLAQC is like, I know, I can see what other worlds are possible. And I work as tirelessly as I can to make those happen. I still, I believe that there's a world in which the SLCA meets its commitments and does this but it's not, it's not the same as saying that's a guarantee. Right? And so, yeah, we'll see, I don't even know what the fate of the JEDI Committee will be after this week. So that alone, I think, tells me something as a participant that we haven't quite done our job. If that's still a question the organization is asking itself. So Tallie Casucci 1:21:45 Yeah, so who have been some of your mentors in terms of climbing or organizing? - 20 - Matty Kastellec 1:21:52 Yes. In terms of climbing. I mean, a lot of my mentors have been people I've met through the queer climbing community so like, in when I was in New York, I think I left this out of this but like, the other the way I got back into climbing during my breakup nonsense was because I looked on a like whole list of queer events. And there's this thing called Crux Climbing, which is basically SLAQC but in New York, right. And I went to a meet up at a my very first meetup, someone who ended up becoming a very good friend, his name is Matt Major, like told the story of how climbing saved his life. And that's like his the little words that he used, right? And you know, that and the sport itself, like grabbed me again. And he's someone phrase it like, I've learned a lot from just from like a technical perspective. I've only done multipitch with him, I don't like multipitch. And I met a lot of other mentors, who taught me things about climbing through that, or who were my climbing partners through Crux. I wouldn't say they're like a lot of like, you know, professional climbers or things like that, that I've looked up to partially because like queer ones haven't existed until Nikki, Alex Johnson, Jordan Cannon, like, those were the three really like I can name off the top of my head. And they're all relatively recent, right. And, you know, I was not really hooked into the climbing world in the way that I am now, even when I climbed in New York, because I was really just like doing it for fun, and I didn't really, you know, I wasn't hooked into the broader climbing space the way that I am now. But I think outside of that, there are a number of mentors I've had in my organization. My professional organization, I've looked up to folks like the chief of staff who was there when I first started her name was Lindsay Haldeman. And she was like, responsible for like, the sort of like development of people in roles like mine, in a weird sort of way. But I learned a lot from her about, like, what it looks like to like, work in an organization like ours, that kind of matrix organization to project plan to manage up to like all these things that I still use on a day to day basis professionally. One of my later managers, Molly Horseman was the type of manager where I tried to emulate now as a manager myself, like in the way that she showed thoughtfulness and care and structure and she also taught me a lot about how to work externally with partners and project planning really complex projects. And then outside of that, in terms of like organizing and, and sort of the world at large, I follow great thinkers like Adrian Marie Brown, who's written books like "Emergent Strategy" and "Pleasure Activism" and Sonya Renee Taylor, we've learned a lot about oppression from even in the last couple years. Yeah, it's funny, I don't I often think of I don't think I have any, nothing. I don't have any formal mentor relationships and way that I think some people actually do, right. But I've been lucky enough to have a lot of informal ones or I think I operate. Well, I know I actually operate. And it's one of my like, if you know, like Clifton Strengths finders, like personality tests, like, three of my top five strengths are on learning, like input, learner, intellection, whatever. And so I operate in the world of learning as much as I can from as many people as I can, and trying not to hoard knowledge, which is like the basement of that, of that strength. And so I think that's meant, like reading a lot of stuff, trying to read from diverse voices, exposing myself to a lot of different things, being lucky enough to live in places like New York where like you are, by default exposed to a lot of different people and cultures and all that. Yeah, so I don't, I can't think of I can't think of other people whose name is like, I'll get that person's like been a huge, huge mentor to me. Yeah. Tallie Casucci 1:26:12 Lots of influencers though. Matty Kastellec 1:26:13 - 21 - Tons. Tons and tons of influencers. And tons of people who I've gained a lot by, by knowing, or by reading or by following. Tallie Casucci 1:26:25 That's neat, so since you've been in Utah for a while, have you had any memorable experiences climbing locally? Matty Kastellec 1:26:39 Yeah, it's funny, because and I, we, we get asked, like, the leaders of SLAQC, we've done a number of interviews at this point. And we get asked every now and then to do these things. And they there's always a question that's like, what's your favorite climb in the state. I don't know, because I've, my favorite thing is that I get to, there's just so much to access, I feel like I've barely, barely barely, barely scratched the surface between injury, COVID, like, running a group like SLAQC takes a lot of energy that I might otherwise be spending, like going out and actually climbing. So I love that access. Like I love that, you know, within 15 minutes, the Cottonwoods are here, and they host a whole array of types of climbing. If you go a little bit farther in that there's American Fork and Maple which are completely different, right, then even further from that there's like Moab and St. George and sandstone that's completely different. And like crack climbing, that's different than like the granite that I've done before in like Vedauwoo and stuff. So I love the variety. I love that it's all so close. And I've had a lot of like, I don't know, I've had a lot of good just like me, like bringing folks from out of state who have come and we've gotten to like, hike in Moab or do some climbing or climbing in St. George for the SLAQC in the Spotlight. It's just been like, it's just so nice. I think people will here really, not that they don't appreciate the access, but I think they could appreciate it more. Because even things like people who are complaining about interesting that some people hear complain about like," oh, this approach is so bad." And it's like five minutes on some street. I'm like, "talk to me where you're climbing like six miles, like 45 minute hike, like up a mountain in New Hampshire or something in the humidity, then complain," or like in West Virginia in July walking along these like telephone wire poles that go up into like, this approach is like, like, it's annoying for five minutes, I get it, but like really get over it. Like the approaches here. And it sounds silly in some ways. But like, it makes a huge difference of your willingness to be like, "Oh, let me just go run up this thing," right? Or "let me go do this thing after work" or something like that. The barrier to entry is so lower in so many ways compared to what I'm used to on the East Coast, and especially from New York. And so that's my favorite thing. And that's the thing that I really have have valued the most. Yeah, Tallie Casucci 1:29:06 Definitely. There's so many different types of climbing and styles that it's hard to stay focused. Matty Kastellec 1:29:14 Yeah. And it's like, I get, you know, if I was a different kind of person, different kind of climber, I'd be like, I'm gonna stay here forever, and I'm gonna climb everything there is to climb. But I don't actually think that's in the cards for me, both as a climber or as the person. Tallie Casucci 1:29:32 - 22 - That kind of leads me to one of my last questions, which is, how are you balancing, or attempting to balance is probably more accurate, all of the things that you're doing? Matty Kastellec 1:29:47 I don't know. It's also been more complicated last month because Nick and I adopted a dog in August who's a rescue which is both very rewarding and shit ton of work and it's made our schedules so much harder, because you can't leave him alone yet. But I think part of it is finding balance in how I show up to different places and spaces. So, you know, for example, I'm a part of the JEDI Committee, but I make a relatively concerted effort to not be leading it, actually, both because I don't actually want to as a white cis dude, I don't actually think it's best for that work to be led by someone like me, though, I think there are times where I have a particular lens to contribute or a particular duty to intervene. Versus taking more of a role on SLAQC, right. But also for like, how we split up work across me, Leah and Rue, it's been important and something we're still working on. And then also finding spaces where like, like I mentioned, tumbling earlier, and part of why I love going to adult tumbling class is it's one of the few spaces in my life where I go and someone else tells me what to do. Like, I just go and I follow instruction. And I listen, and I get to do something fun, right? And something engaging athletically, right. But I find that even when I'm at the gym, it's really hard to turn off SLAQC brain, like it's really hard not to be like, who's here, like, who should I be talking to or like, what? Yeah, it's like very different, my relationship to climbing has changed. And I knew that was gonna happen in a lot of ways. Because, you know, even say, for other weekly meetups, like, I don't climb that much of those, if at all right? Because I see it as my job to hold space for others, and to make sure others having good time in those spaces. And I know people feel that and it makes a difference in their experience. But that means that that's the only time I go to the gym that week, then I probably climbed like one or two things max, or maybe all I did was stretch, and which is great, because my body needs that. I was saying with yoga, yoga is another place where I go, and I just get to listen and participate. I like having those, those spaces are a good balance for me. I mean, the other thing is, like, I'm lucky enough to have a relatively flexible job. And frankly, like, if I didn't have the type of flexible in terms of both like our like, just hours, but also like it's a type of job where I've been in my company long enough, I'm good enough at what I do that if I get my work done, then I get my work done. And like it, it doesn't matter if I need to take a call for SLAQC at three, right? In the afternoon, or something like that. So I don't actually want to underplay the fact that like a lot of people who have different professional lives would not be able to do the amount of things that I'm able to spend time on. But my company is very good for me in that sense, in that they provide a lot of flexibility. The expectation is, you know, here's the work that's expected of you, complete it, when and how you need to for the most part other than whatever calls I need to be on. And so that does play a real factor in my ability to like, you know, the fact that I already work remote job and can spend a half, like 10 minutes here or there responding to emails, or like updating something on Instagram for SLAQC. So like, some of it is just me with a balance throughout my day. Some of it is balancing for myself, like what I'm doing and how I'm being very aware of how I show up in different spaces. And what I'm doing. And the other thing is, like I said, like, even if I'm not climbing at a meet up space, like it's, it's giving me energy in a different way, right? Like I'm getting something out of it. So like it's work in some senses, yes, but it's also it's also energizing a lot of other senses. And like I said, and some sometimes I feel like I have such a crystal clear vision of what could be that it doesn't. It, there's like a sort of like righteousness to it almost that means like, I'm not upset about the energy that goes into it. Because I feel very clear about the potential benefits that will come from my efforts. Whether or - 23 - not I actually get to experience them, myself, which is actually a practice I think about, I think came from some of the work we've done in yoga with some of the Buddhist practices and work I've done in therapy too have. Yeah, so it's definitely a bit of a balancing act, it ebbs and flows. There are some weeks and days where I'm like raring to go and do a million things. And then there's some weekends where I like don't leave the couch. And I'm like just reading a book all weekend and like recuperating and recovering. And also, I should say, we've done a lot to invest in the types of things that make it sustainable for us as SLAQC leadership. So like we raised money to be able to afford Canva Pro for example. So like it's easy to design Instagram stuff and get them scheduled to post like I sit down once a month I batch it out and it's done. Way less work and way less stress than being like waking up one day man like "shit we have a meetup tonight. No one's posted anything about it" right like we've invested in tools like that. That let us do this sustainably right or as sustainably as we can And I try to set as clear boundaries as I can or as I need to. So with whether it's with SLCA or SLAQC, or it's my work or what have you, so that's a practice in and of itself. But yeah, it's interesting. I know Lea's answer to this question would be "the devil works hard, but Matty works harder." And I guess that's partially true. Some of it's just I work hard. And I'm efficient at some things. Some things come really easy to me. I know some people get really stressed with things like responding to emails, or like writing an Instagram post and like, I could do that in my sleep at this point. Tallie Casucci 1:35:37 Lots of practice. Matty Kastellec 1:35:38 Yeah. Tallie Casucci 1:35:41 What's the biggest challenge you see facing the climbing community, whether that's just locally or kind of bigger picture? Matty Kastellec 1:35:49 I think it's it's definitely in both it's definitely a fractal moment where like Utah's in many ways, a reflection of what's happening bigger. But climbing is both facing a huge amount of growth, or enduring a huge amount of growth. And it's also facing some of its biggest challenges in terms of access, right? Like, there's a gondola here. But that's not the only place where this is going on whether it's, you know, different disputes over land usage or land rights, whether it's like continued and important safety conversations about like, it's a dangerous sport, people die, not infrequently, right. And it's most of them, it's from human error, right? Very rare that people die from gear failure, whether it be bolts on the wall, or your harness or your rope snapped out of nowhere, right? Like, usually you made a mistake, as a person. And I think a lot of that is going to come to a head as the popularity continues to grow. And as and whether or not we see that the growth and things like indoor climbing translate to outdoor climbing or not, or whether that whether that is even the point or the goal, right? There are a lot of people who treat climbing, like they treat CrossFit, right, where it's an athletic endeavor that they do because of its physical benefits, physical and mental benefits, right? Not because it, they want it to deepen their connection to the outdoors, which is something we think about as SLAQC. And so I do think there's a number of forks in the road for the climbing community as a whole and in Utah of like, what's the type of - 24 - community we want to be? We're also like a legacy of like I said, like, of gatekeeping, of like, sort of like dirtbag sort of culture and lifestyle of like, you know, camping or van and show up to a crag. And that's changing in terms of like, what it costs to access climbing, what the, what the ethos of climbing is or will be. And so I think the biggest challenge is going back to this word like integration, like how does the climbing community integrate all of these disparate aspects? And that's tricky, because, you know, there isn't a clear arbiter of the climbing community in the way that there might be other. I don't know, other sports that have more clear governing bodies, for example, like Yeah, USA Climbing exists, but like, competitive climbing is one very, very small sliver of the overall climbing community. Right. But there isn't a unified. I don't know climbing gym, governance, right. Or approach. I don't even think there's a unified like certification of any type. There's certification for instructors, yes, but like for gym practices. I'm not an expert there. So I could be totally wrong. And organizations like the American Alpine Club and Access Fund work nationally, but there's also a lot of local operators to local climbing organizations. To me, the challenge is climbing. I believe climbing is for everyone. And I think whether the sport or the community climbing as a whole, believes that or not will really impact what happens over the next few years whether we continue to see efforts to diversify and represent to make it accessible, literally like to make the sport accessible in different ways. Or to not tell people hey, don't like I'm not telling you where to climb, because it doesn't mean more people there versus like, what does it mean for us to like, be willing to collectively sacrifice in some ways for like the overall longevity of the sport, right? Or the overall good of the world. I talk about this a lot of I think there's a major issue in the climbing community with framing things, like there's an area called Massacre Rocks in Idaho, that is likely being close to climbing due to concerns from a number of different folks, but primarily from the indigenous tribal concerns in the area. And the major push I've been trying to make just even within SLCA and other folks that have been able to talk to us, like, what would it take for us to look at that not as a loss? Like it's, it's, it's a, it's an end to climbing recreation? Yes. But it is a major gain to somebody else. And are you, are we capable of being okay with that, right? And not being so myopic or like so caught up in our own concerns or perceived like duty to preserve climbing access? To not recognize that like, climbing is not the only thing in the world, right? And that it's okay, that some things are more important than climbing, right? It's okay, for example, for someone spiritual practices to be more important than climbing, it is at the end of the day sport, it is by definition, recreation. Even if you are a professional climber, it is your professional and a recreational sport, right? It does not have to exist. And it didn't used to exist, right? Like, and I think the climbing community will, will fall apart in some way shape, or form if it relies on inertia alone, or if it thinks that it can rely on operating the way that has always operated. And so I would like what I hope for the climbing community as a whole and in Utah is for us to come into better reconciliation with like, what does it mean? What does it mean to do a sport on lands, especially lands that are contested? What would it mean to acknowledge that it's not the most important thing in the world, that it has a benefit, and it is deeply meaningful to a lot of people to be clear. But that it might be equally or more meaningful to other people for other reasons that you might not understand in the same way that they don't understand why climbing is important to you. Right? Number one, number two, I think, you know, figuring out how do we be? How are we in balanced with the lands we can access in terms of access and conservation and climate change? And all this stuff? That's like, putting literal pressure on like, what land is available to climb on? And what does that mean for what Gen programming looks like and education and all this stuff? And, again, how do you make? How do you make the practices that will preserve climbing for the future irresistible to people who participated in the sport? I don't think we're doing either of those things well, right now as a whole, as a - 25 - community locally, or nationally or globally. And I think there's a number there's some efforts, they're going in the right direction, but they feel very fragile to me. They feel very on the razor's edge of these, these could continue or the momentum could die completely, you know, in another year and another five years, do we still see something like SLAQC in the Spotlight existing? Are people still doing Pride lines? Are people doing projects in support of BIPOC climber communities? Right? Are these scholarships that have sprung up are they expanded or are they gone? Right? Or are they hidden? Right? There's all these things that again, yeah, like it's, it will be really easy. And frankly, this is what I feel I fear is playing a SLCA, it's really easy for the momentum to die, it's really easy to fall back into serving some rather than all, it's really easy to follow the pulse or the what is the word I want? The current of like dominant culture, mainstream culture, white, cis, hetero male, right? Like, all of these things are the powerful cultures for a reason, right? It's because we have all these systems that reify them all the time. And so it's hard to it's hard to stand against the current. And it's hard to do it over time. And that's what I think we will learn something either way, in the next couple of years in the climbing community. As a leader of an affinity group, I think I will learn in the next couple years, what support is real and what what was convenient for people, right? And what happens when we're no longer convenient, or we or our existence is no longer commodifiable for gyms and companies and others, right? That's, that's the test. So I don't know what's to come. But like I said, I have a pretty clear vision of the world that could be and I think it's very different from the climbing world we live in now, in a lot of ways Tallie Casucci 1:45:08 Do you mind sharing that vision? Matty Kastellec 1:45:09 I mean, my vision is I mean, it's sort of simple, right? It's like, what a world that looks like, where there is an open sharing of knowledge. So people who want to climb, know how to start, people who want to go outside, know how to do that, how to access it, that it's not abhorrently expensive to do that, if you want to do it, if you want to try it, that there are systems and structures in place that are respected for managing access where it's ecologically necessary. You know, in particular, where we don't think of climbers and indigenous as separate entities or separate people, but acknowledge that there are one indigenous climbers and that, two, like, we should be in relationship in some way, shape, or form. And that, gyms and companies and climbing media and influencers and all that etc, like that they work to really tell the whole story. It's how I put it, like the whole story of who's a climber? Who can climb who should climb, what does it mean? And break away from some of the like, traditional, like, dude sends hard thing, right? Or I'm here, Americans go somewhere overseas to send things in place for like, no one climbs, quote, unquote, without any sort of like, you know, examination of like, well, why isn't there climbing infrastructure in that country? Right? And what would it look like if there was? My friend, Veronica, at the Climbing Initiative does great work on that. But yeah, I in some ways, it's a very simple but very distant vision of like, it's a world where like, anyone who wants to climb can climb, and the way that people climb is sustainable and respectful. And I go back again, to this phrase, we have a SLAQC like, I think climbing. The reason one of the reasons that SLAQC exists because this is because we believe it's a sport that's uniquely positioned to one, help people connect with their bodies, and especially for queer people in a way that dispels myths of stigma, like what your body can or can't do. It's a sport that often forces you to build deep and trusting relationships, people literally have their live - 26 - your life in their hand in a rope, right. And three, because it deepens your connection to nature and outdoors in a way that not every sport does. And that those three facets have the potential to make it truly life changing sport for a number of people. And for many of the you know, for me, I'm specific, we interested in having queer people access those life changing benefits. But those benefits apply to everyone. And I think if we grapple with that, and saw that as such, and designed a climbing society that was built around, that wouldn't be a question of, we shouldn't let people access this space, because it's too special, right? Or it's too fragile. It'd be a question of, how do we get as many people to access this space as they can sustain? Right? And how do we prioritize those who would benefit the most from it? Right? That's what I hoped for. And it feels incredibly far off right now. Even here, even locally, right? Even the things that we struggled to do as an org, like we are really wary, for example, to take people outdoors on rope, things because the safety issues are real and like, like hiring a guide is incredibly expensive. And even if people donate their guide hours to us, we have to have insurance, we have to have a permit, like, all these things that are barriers to groups like ours, actually be able to fulfill our mission that are systemic, right, that a system is not designed to make it easy to access, the types of things that would let us provide that type of education and opportunity for people in our community. And we're not alone in that. That's not a Utah specific thing. It's not a Salt Lake specific thing. It's not a career specific thing. Any of these any marginalized identity, right. Yeah. Tallie Casucci 1:49:26 What impact do you hope to have climbing and/or queer communities? Matty Kastellec 1:49:31 Yeah, I mean, I just hope that you know, in some ways, it's like, I know, there's already been benefit, and I hope there continues to be benefit of people who the stories that always get me are like the people who tried to climb before and felt like there was no space for them. Right. Like it was a sport that they liked, but that they couldn't, they couldn't bear to bring themselves to the gym where they were the only queer person, right. Or the only black or brown person right or what have you. And so the fact that we're able to provide a space or folks climb. There are folks who only come to the gym when we host meetups, they don't come to the gym, otherwise, right? Or if you don't go to the gym at all right, because for a number of reasons, it doesn't feel safe or supportive, right? And that there's already so much impact we've already had there. And what I hope is that we continue to hold space for those people, we continue to serve the queer climbers who don't even know we exist yet, can serve the people who don't even know they're climbers yet. And I hope to just keep, you know, breaking down those barriers, and working towards that vision and the small and big ways I can. And I think the other thing I hope to do, like as soon as, like, I hope, SLAQC can be a model for how to run organizations like this, where you can be small, and you have no resources, but like, you can still set a mission, vision and values, and you can stick to that. And you can figure out how to do that. And to say, and you know, and you can grow in the way that you want to grow. Not how other people dictate how you should grow or be or go beyond your limits, right? Things like that. I think I feel really lucky that I feel in some ways uniquely positioned through that my combination of experience to like, not just know these things to be true, but to be able to enact them in some ways. And I know that's also benefited, like groups of Color the Wasatch, who straight up tell us, you know, like, Oh, that was like, we're stealing that, like that thing you did, we're gonna do that too. Because it's, it's smart, right? Or it's or it's helpful, right? Even little things like the format of our Instagram posts. They're like, can we copy you? And we're like, yes, go for - 27 - like, Please, no one should be reinventing the wheel of like, how to post a weekly meet up, post, right, that has the right information that people need to participate. Yeah, so I feel like I'm just like, out here banging my little drum as loudly as I can. And in as many spaces as people will let me. Even for example, like last, two couple of weeks ago, like, because of connections with SLCA got invited to speak at the Utah Outdoor Association Summit, or Division of Outdoor Recreation Summit, on a panel about inclusion and safety in the outdoors. And it was one of those moments where I realized, like, just all these people are land managers, they're like, they run their other organizations working outdoors, a number of different things. But, you know, we posed questions and activity like, you know, have you ever felt unsafe? Like or have you ever had to consider who sees you getting in and out of your tent? If you're recreating outdoors, if you're camping, right? And people were like, "What are you talking about?" It's like, yeah, when I'm camping with my partner, I know who's around me, like, and I notice whether they notice us, right? And I'm constantly legislating my own safety, even as a cis white dude, right? Because, like, again, the stories we are told, and the stories that are reified by violence, right, like places like Moab, those two women were killed, right? Like, those stories reify, that these are not spaces that were supposed to be in, right, or that we're not suppose to access in those ways. So being able to share stories like that, even in that small little, not a small session actually was packed with like 30 or 40 people. But being able to influence even those people a little bit to think differently about their assumptions of the world around them. Like that's the type of thing I hope. It's not just something that lasts in that moment, but personas outwards. And the tricky thing about it, too, is like you can't know, like a lot of times, you know, sometimes you don't know the impact you've had. So that's why those little stories that happen at the meetups every week are like so juicy and motivating of like, well, this is something I can hold tangibly. Like you one person told me that this was meaningful to you, right? Or you got to be here in your you got to be here and play with your gender right in a way that you might not have space to do another anywhere else in your life, right? Or you might choose not to have your pronouns respected at work because it's too much, but here you can. There's lots of moments like that, that are our micro in a lot of senses. But I also believe and because of Adrian Marie Brown as a thinker like in the fractals, right of like what we do in these small moments, like reverberate outwards are like the murmuration, right? Like, we're all flock of birds and if you move a little bit, I have to move too, right and so that's what I'm trying to do is move moving in the direction I think is best or that I know will have the most benefit to the most marginalized. Tallie Casucci 1:54:49 Is there anything else I haven't asked or we haven't talked about that you'd like to share? Matty Kastellec 1:54:54 I don't think so. I mean, I got a lot of what I was hoping to speak to because like, like that thing about stigma is like a thing that I come back to all the time. And how like climbing can overcome stigma. But I touched on that, I think in a way that I feel good about. I mean, I would just shout at all the people that helped make SLAQC what it is, like I said, like, it definitely is like a takes a village moment. And I'm lucky enough to often be the face of things partially because I am one of the more comfortable ones speaking about this stuff. And I'm often the most vocal about stuff partially because I have the privilege of being safe in a lot of spaces that other people might not be. But it's also because I've been thinking about and doing this work for so long that a lot of it, it comes off, it's natural to me or like I am able to respond in the moment. I would thank all those people. And thank everyone that's come to our - 28 - meetups. And I'm really excited for the future of SLAQC and the future of the climbing community, even despite my concerns. Oh yeah, that would be the only thing it's like, like I was mentioning like, shout out to like all the other organizations that have popped up in the last year in particular, because it's not just us, there's RAR, like I mentioned, there's Under the Umbrella and they host a ton of programming, whether it's like queer speed date, or queer poetry night, there's Iowa House, my friends, Amanda and Jade, who hosted weekly potluck for queer and trans folks, it's just such a lovely space. There's queer ballet, there's, there's so much momentum right now, in Salt Lake specifically, and in Utah as a whole. And I think it's a real testament to like, in some ways, you know, it only takes one, and not to say SLAQC was the one, but it only takes people be able to see one other thing happening, like, I could do something like that. I could have something like that. Book clubs, all these things. And it just means people have so many options now, I love people to tell people like, oh, there's a queer thing for that. Like, Oh, you want to do ballet? Like, go to queer ballet, like, Oh, you're looking for yoga? I know, multiple queer trans yoga instructors. Right? Right. There's so much popping up. And we're actually trying to figure out a way to like, collude better, and like organize better, because we're all doing probably duplicative work of like sharing everybody's stuff. Like, we don't have like a centralized calendar of all this stuff. But that will be I know, people would love that. But yeah, I would say I feel also like honored and excited to be part of like a bigger groundswell. That means that, like, you know, people have told us, like, I didn't think a group like SLAQC could ever exist. People who are from Utah, and from Salt Lake, like, I didn't think a group like this could ever exist. And I think that's true for a lot of these groups. And they do exist, and they're thriving. And, like, we just need, we don't even need, we don't need things, but like, the more people can support, the more those things will grow. So yeah, I can't think of anything else, I think at least off the top of my head. I'm sure I forgot something. I'll be annoyed at myself later. But yeah. Tallie Casucci 1:58:32 Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you being here. Matty Kastellec 1:58:37 I feel like I'm a talker, and this is why I end up talking and all the all the events and stuff is because like I just, I'll just keep going. I can talk about anything. Thank you. Tallie Casucci 1:58:48 Thank you. - 29 -