Oral history interview of John Cronin, conducted by Tallie Casucci (audio and transcript)

John Cronin (b. 1964) grew up in New York City and Long Island. He started rock climbing in 1987 and quickly left to live by the Shawangunks, NY, to climb. Within a year, John started doing climbing competitions, including a few international World Cups. John really enjoyed the mental and physical aspects of competitions. In 1992, John moved to Salt Lake City to continue training for competitions and climbing locally at American Fork Canyon, Little Cottonwood Canyon, and other areas. John recounts memorable first ascents and repeats during a very intense 12 year climbing career. John left Salt Lake City and stopped climbing, but continues to visit to see family and friends. John now plays table tennis and surfs in his free time in California.

JOHN CRONIN Salt Lake City, UT An interview by Tallie Casucci November 1, 2022 Rock Climbers Oral History Project -1- Tallie Casucci 00:02 Good afternoon. It's November 1, 2022. I'm Tallie Casucci. And I'm talking with John Cronin in Salt Lake City about rock climbing. So to get us started, John, can you introduce yourself and tell me about what it was like growing up? John Cronin 00:19 Introduce myself? Oh, you just did that. John Cronin. I was born in New York, New York City in Queens. When I was around 10 years old and moved from, from Queens to Long Island, and I was there for probably until I was till I started climbing really. Once I started climbing, I left. Pretty quickly left. I left Long Island because at the time when I started climbing in 1987, was it? Yeah, 1987 was about a year after my daughter was born. When I started climbing, there was nothing to climb. There were no climbing gyms. So the closest place to climb was in the Gunks. Shawangunks, upstate New York. Let's see. I'm going to talk more about that. Let's see. I was always the type of kid that like to climb stuff. Like anything. I didn't really care. When I was really young, I remember probably nine or 10, I climbed a telephone pole. And there was a big branch that came off of a tree that was pretty close. When past the telephone pole, I remember grabbing it and just shimming out as a 10 year old and I slipped and fell about I don't know how many feet. Not that many, but onto a picket fence. Very lucky to be here this day. But yeah, I'd love to climb stuff. I lived in a place that like in like these two or three story tenement buildings surrounding a block and down the center of the block with these garages and I remember climbing on top of the garage, and you can go all the way down to the end of the block and back, climbing on people's roofs. My parents would have had it just a cow if they knew but yeah, so I love to climb. I remember once we moved out to Long Island, I would climb trees, I'd climb radio towers, anything to get up high. That was sort of the goal to just get above everything else. So yeah, climb buildings. Yeah, until I found climbing. How did I found climbing? I guess that may be interesting. I was a landscaper when I got out of high school. And I used to run I ran crews for about six years and with landscaping at the time, you would get all sorts of people coming through they work for a season or two and then they go away you know and I'd become friendly with some of them. And this one guy became friendly with went over to his house, excuse me, and he had a pair of Sportiva Mariachers hanging on his on his door and just like you know, being from New York, I've never seen any brightly colored shoes that, like "what the hell are these?" So the climbing shoes brought out some pictures he had climbed previous summer in Yosemite. He was basically climbing on scree, you know, like the rope tied around him and I don't know if there was any belaying going on, but sketchy stuff but once I saw pictures, I think he had a book if I remember with climbing in the Gunks I think. I can't remember. And I think the next weekend I had already had shoes, a harness, rope, I had you know things to tie. I had "Basic Rock Craft" by Royal Robbins and I like read through it. I'm like, "I'm gonna go climb and this is gonna be this is it. I know this is gonna be my sport." And it was like the first time out the Gunks. So I was just like, “I'm hooked. Every weekend that it's not raining, I'm gonna go to the Gunks.” I just climbed more and more and more and just totally got into it and got better and better. And I decided at some point that I wanted you know, if I'm going to climb more, I can kind of do more than once a week just during the climbing season. You know there are no climbing gyms there was I think there was one climbing gym in New Jersey but it was too far away. And the gym was terrible and the climbing holds were really rough and I could only climb for like an hour before your skin was just shredded. So, yeah, at the time I was -2- married and, was I married at that point? Yeah, I was married and I had a three year old, moved the family up there to the Gunks so I could climb more. Tallie Casucci 05:14 What was the climbing scene like at the Gunks when you move there? John Cronin 05:20 Let's see. It was a small scene of climbers that were pushing the standards at the time it was pretty small. And because of my physical makeup and my desire to climb really hard and kind of fit in with those guys pretty quickly. [phone rings] My apologies. Let me test shut this off. Let's see if I can shut it off while somebody is trying to call. Sorry. What was the climbing scene there? Oh, so there were a few top climbers that I got in tight with probably in the first six months to a year that I started climbing. I was good enough to climb with them. And you know, it was a small since like Al Diamond, Jordan Mills, Scott Franklin just left. He left in '86 and I started climbing in '87. I don't know if you know who Scott Franklin is. He used to have a climbing company used to make artificial climbing holds. I actually ended up working for him years later. Anyway, it was a small scene, people were excited we go out and try to push the standard. There's a climbing area there called Kingston, not far from the Gunks. And it was all sort of sport routes, chip routes even, it was a quarry. And you know, without the routes being chipped there would be no routes, as it is completely smooth. Interesting shit. Anyway, I climbed there, but before I moved out to Utah, I quickly outgrew the place and I started doing competitions within about a year or so of climbing. So I was very motivated to try to push standards as hard as I could, you know, climb test pieces, put up stuff on my own around the Gunks. But there were no climbing gyms in the winter. I'd go to these National climbing competitions and meet these guys who were climbing in gyms and they were climbing year round. And they were climbing on routes. At the time, the Gunks was a purely traditional place to climb in. And these guys were all pushing the standards by sport climbing. There were very, very few sport climbs in the Gunks. So within a couple of years, I had to leave and I needed to go to a place that I could push the standards a little bit more for myself to get better and do better in competitions. I moved out to Salt Lake in '92 and quickly met the climbers that were pushing the standards here. There were climbing gyms. David Bell had a climbing gym at that time. I think that was the only one here. It was The Body Shop and it was down off of Highland. Before I moved out I actually met the sort of top climbers that were pushing it around here. I met Boone Speed, Mike Call, Mike Beck. Jeff Weigand who is an interesting person, let's just say. Is he on your list of people to contact? You probably have some interesting stuff to say about him. But a lot of people do, I'm sure. Anyway. So I kind of fit right in right off the bat, you know, and I wasn't necessarily pushing the standard. I was sort of training at the time. I was training indoors and also training with these guys in their home gyms, right like Mike Call, Kelly Oldroyd is he on your list by chance? So these guys all live in this one place. Mike Call, Kelly Oldroyd, Jonathan Knight. Is he on your list? Yes. This guy Eric, what's Eric's last name? I can't remember. Anyway. Oh, and Sheri Rich. She was on your list. They all lived in the same place. And they had a gym, a full-on training woody. We live down the street from them, so I would go to their house and train. I’d train on the campus board. Yeah, so I just fitted right away with the group. And let's see, you know, I needed to work cuz I had a family so I could not just go and screw off and just climb wherever I wanted to. So I had to really think about how I was gonna climb and work at the same time and train and do competitions. So it was a handful when I first got here. It -3- was a handful, but I didn't care. I was totally motivated. I was young, about 28 when I moved here? Yeah, that was 28, when I moved here. What was the question? Tallie Casucci 10:30 I don't remember. John Cronin 10:32 You asked me about the climbing scene in New York. Yeah, I kind of moved over to Salt Lake. Tallie Casucci 10:38 Yeah. Before we dive a little bit more into the Salt Lake, can you talk a little bit about the competition scene? And why were you motivated so early to do competitions? When it seemed that climbing stuff was what your passion was as a kid. John Cronin 10:59 Well. Tallie Casucci 11:00 Is there a competitive streak in there too? John Cronin 11:02 I think so. You know, even to this day, for me it's always about getting better at whatever I'm doing. So now I don't climb, because there's not a lot of climbing in Santa Cruz. The gym there is terrible. I took climbing as far as I could physically for me. Basically injuries sort of forced me out. I've got a good body to climb and then I'm light, and somewhat strong, but my joints don't like doing this all the time. More this or this? Or? Yeah. So what was the question again? I'm sorry. Tallie Casucci 11:46 Oh, what drew you to competitions? John Cronin 11:48 Yes. So, yes. Tallie Casucci 11:49 What was the competition scene like back then? John Cronin 11:52 Well, me personally, I'm always looking to improve, right? And competitions naturally test that. I am competitive with other people around me. But climbing competitions are not necessarily about competing against other people, because, you're the only person on the wall at the time. It's whether you can do it or not. And sure, there's a standard. There's the climbing apparatus to measure everybody on. Right? This is one way you can measure your yourself against other climbers. And I always wanted to win. I always wanted to, I was into sports as a kid, but this body is no good for football, which is what I really wanted to play. I played some baseball. I was played little league until I -4- was 12 or 13. So I wanted to be good at something. And climbing, I was actually good at pretty quickly. I kind of naturally fell into it. After my first competition, I was just like, "This is great. This is so good. I want to do more," even though it made me incredibly nervous. I remember my first competition was in Washington DC. And I couldn't sleep that night, my stomach was upset, it almost nearly killed me. But I loved it. I loved the challenge of keeping all the stress under control. I didn't know that's part of climbing competitions at the time. But after the first one, I was like, "Wow, this is this is a mind game! As well as just being able to perform.” You know, “Can you do this? Go from here to here.” You know, it's also, “Can you keep your nerves under control for a certain amount of time?” And I was able to do that even though I was all freaked out. Completely freaked out. It's just a challenge though, I enjoyed that. So I took that to climbing and climbing out here in Salt Lake and there were people that were competing from Salt Lake and we train together and I think I was definitely more into competitions than anybody else in Salt Lake at the time. Because I was doing at a time doing Nationals, doing pretty well and you know, few years later at climbing in and around Salt Lake. I did a couple of World Cups and one in France and one in England. I didn't do very well. But it was somewhat eye opening for me because at the time when I was over there, I was ranked one or two in the country. I went over there and I couldn't come close to measuring up. Those guys were climbing so much better than me and I thought, "Okay. Well, I've put all I can into this. This is all I can do and I'm not gonna ever be on World stage way up there." So that's when I started climbing a lot less. But we've gone to the downside of climbing. Tallie Casucci 15:14 When you went to the World Cups, how was the mental aspects? Was it still a challenge for you to keep those nerves in check? John Cronin 15:26 They did not. Yes, I was able to manage. But when I fell, it was because I was gassed. And it wasn't because I messed up mentally or even physically, it was just I had nothing left in the tank and I fell. And you know that when you're watching all the world's best climbers and they're not even tired at the place that I was at. Right? I'm doing as much as I can to climb and to compete. So, I needed to start thinking outside of climbing at that point. But what a great experience. Going to World Cup, it was so much different. There was a lot more money involved in World Cup competitions; The productions were really big, they put money into it, disco lights, announcers, in venues that are expensive. It was just very well run show. Yeah, it was good. It was good fun. It's a good life experience. Tallie Casucci 16:37 When was your last competition? John Cronin 16:44 I did one competition at the old Body Shop, right after the Body Shop opened down at like 90th South, somewhere down there. Before that one closed, and they opened the one where it is now which is the Front. I did a bouldering comp there. And it was roughly I think, yeah, I think it was at that was my last comp. I'm pretty sure about that. It's hard to remember. But I did a couple of both while I was working. So I moved to Oregon and I did a couple of competitions there. And then when I moved back, there were some competitions. I wasn't going to do Nationals anymore. But if they were local, I was still training and climbing, going out bouldering, so I was somewhat fit, so we would do the local -5- competitions. I think the last local competition I did was out the Front. And I came in second. And there were a lot of strong climbers. I was very happy to come in second and also I was quite a bit older than them too. Tallie Casucci 17:59 Yeah. What year was that? John Cronin 18:05 '98? Might have been my last competition. '99 maybe? Yeah, somewhere around there, '98, '99. Yeah. Tallie Casucci 18:14 So that's almost 10 years of focusing on competition climbing then, right? John Cronin 18:19 Yeah, I've got a lot of friends that are still climbing. And my window of climbing was 23 to like 35. You know, I had like 12 year climbing career, but I packed it in, as much as I could, as much as I could back then. I think if I was still here, I probably still climb with a bunch of these guys. I wouldn't be pushing the standards at all, but I'd still go out and have a good time. Try not to fall. Falling is no good at 58. The sports that I play, I play table tennis and I also surf, the learning curve is infinite at my age. I can keep getting better and better. Also it's low, well somewhat low, impact sports. Surfing can kick your butt. But you can always back it off. If things get hairy, you can go to the beach. I got competitive and I started doing competitions in table tennis. I twisted my knee which I didn't have an ACL in that knee and I twisted it even further and had to get it repaired. If you’re competing in table tennis matches, you need to have strong ligaments in your knees, otherwise it can be dangerous. But yeah, the climbing scene back here in Salt Lake, there were some standards being pushed at the time that I was climbing up a bunch. Boone Speed was putting up a lot of hard routes around when I was climbing a bunch. When I was training for climbing I was also doing routes at the same time, because most of the climbing competitions I was doing were route based. So I focused in mainly on onsighting routes, because that's what climbing is. Like, the sequences is like this, you know? [hand gestures] So I didn't want to work on routes anymore. For me, they didn't really teach me anything new. Projecting a route it's whether or not I can go to the office and perform today, you know? Like do the same. Can I get through the sequence today? You know, after day eight? So I made up rule. This is my rule for going out climbing in new areas wherever I go, if I don't do it in three tries, I'm done. If it's in the same day. Yeah. You know, you think got a shot, if you take a rest? Maybe try again. I got a lot of climbing in after that rule. A whole lot of climbing! You know, I just bat things off a little bit. And maybe I try something hard that was really challenging me to do it the first try. Or you could tell like, “Okay, this is going to take some work” and you wouldn't try it again. But you know, you just go through the route even if you fell was like, “Okay, I experienced it. Let's go on to some other cool route.” I travelled around and I got a lot of good climbing in. Also, the stakes are high for me. So it's like, “Okay, it's got to be the first try. Gotta be onsighting.” And route reading was really hard sometimes I tried to get some you know, some information to try to pinkpoint? What do you call it when you have information? Man it's been too many years. -6- Tallie Casucci 22:04 You flash it. John Cronin 22:05 Yeah, you flash it. Thank you. Yeah, so some of the hard routes I tried to flash. A route that I thought looked really cool, I'd tried to do it first try. I remember being in France and I was doing World Cups at the time, I still have the same rule. First of all you're in France, you want to experience as many routes as you can. In the six weeks that I was there, I'm like, “I'm not spending any time on anything.” I think there's this route Chouca and it's about 8a, which is what is that here? 13c? I think I had information about it and I did it second try and I was like, "Yeah, two tries! Now on to the next." And there's like a 14a right next to it. I'm like, “Well let me just go through it.” Maybe it was a 13d and I went through it. I'm like “Okay, I'm never gonna do that. It's gonna take some time to do this." So I didn't give it another shot, but I experienced the route. This is a route that made all the magazines. It was La Rose. And it was called La Rose [La Rose et le Vampire, in Buoux], because it had the rose move. So I got to experience the rose move. I'm not going to do the route, maybe I could in that trip but it's just wouldn't been worth it. I climbed tons of other routes while I was over there. So that was how I approached climbing for a good probably a good five years or so, where I wasn't gonna work on it anymore. Tallie Casucci 23:47 Are there any of the climbs in Utah that you onsighted or flash that you remember really standing out to you during that time period of "one try and that's it"? John Cronin 24:03 Most of the stuff by the time I started to do that, I had tried all the routes around here that were within my abilities. Boone was putting up stuff that I couldn't really touch. He was putting up stuff down at the Virgin River Gorge, you know, some 14 pluses down there or 14 mid-range. I don't know, they were hard too hard for me. Boone put up this thing called I Scream, I just looked at the holds and I'm like "Those are footholds!" It's just too hard. But a lot of the stuff that was within my range that I had already tried. And I either had done them all that were in that climbable range for me whether I spent, this is before I implemented that rule. It took me 8 tries to do 13b or something like that. But yeah, there was nothing really notable around here, at least I don't think. It was more or less going on climbing trips, that I would do something that if I was trained well enough that I tried to do first try 13a or b, which is nothing anymore. I still follow climbing and I watch Adam Ondra, Alex Megos, I think that's a name, and you're just watching them train. I'm just like, "Wow." Yeah, those guys are just so fit. It's just insane. But it's really fun for me to just look to see what's still going on out there. Just somewhat related to I kind of feel like I got in at the right time, right? I was never going to be as strong as those guys, if I had gotten into climbing now. I wouldn't be a blip on the radar of climbing, right? Not at all. And, you know, it was fun, you know, just being on the cutting edge, going out bouldering or trying to do the hardest route. I did one of the hard routes around, I did Dead Souls. I had an early ascent to Dead Souls. That was the route that taught me that I don't want to do this anymore, because it took me, I don't know how many days, like eight or nine days of climbing and I'm just like, "That's it." When I did it, I was mad at the climb. I wasn't happy. For me, it wasn't a release finally. It was just like, "I don't like it. I don't want to do this anymore, because it's awful." I think I did one more hard route afterwards that was like 13c or d. And that was the Linus in the Cave. And I think I got the second ascent of that. That took me five or six -7- days and I'm just like, "Okay, I'm done." I want to onsight routes, I think that's a lot more fun. Did I answer your question? I don't remember what the question was. Tallie Casucci 27:30 Oh, you did. So it also sounds that at the same time, you were doing some bouldering? John Cronin 27:37 Yeah. Tallie Casucci 27:37 Can we talk about that? John Cronin 27:40 Yeah, when I came out here, the guys that I was training with, Mike Call, Boone. They were climbing at I remember distinctly they were talking about bouldering in the middle of the night because the temperatures were really good. None of this made any sense to me, like humidity? When I first got here I'm just like, “In New York, it's not raining. So it's not raining, you're trying your hardest.” I got here in the summer and people were like, "Oh no, we're not going, it's too hot." Like it's 100, but so? I never stopped climbing in New York, unless it was raining. So coming out here, I can't remember what is the question again? Tallie Casucci 28:33 Little Cottonwood bouldering. John Cronin 28:34 So those guys were there actually bouldering in Big [Cottonwood Canyon]. Nobody really talked about it. Tallie Casucci 28:42 No? John Cronin 28:42 Yeah, they were talking about. When I first heard about it, because I was still route climbing and I wasn't thinking too much about bouldering and training indoors at their woodies. They were talking about going to, because we were climbing on these holds that were slick, just super slick holds and they were like "Well, we're going out to Big Cottonwood. There are a few places that we go that the holds are really, really hard to hang on to." That's how you get strong, you climb on stuff that's really hard to hang onto. But I think I did that a couple times. Tallie Casucci 29:19 Where in Big? John Cronin 29:20 Man, I don't know. -8- Tallie Casucci 29:22 By the road? John Cronin 29:23 Yeah right off the road. They would have Tallie Casucci 29:26 Traverses then? John Cronin 29:27 Some of them are traverses, some of this I remember this one formation that you could shine the lights of the car on this one section of the wall, but it didn't really make a lot of sense to me. And there was a lot of eliminates, "Don't touch this. Grab this." "This is stupid," to me at least. I can do this on a woody, right? You know I can make up climbs. "This is on. This is on. The feet, there's nothing on." You know? So that's kind of what they were doing. So I wasn't super interested in that. But I remember going out, let's see, when it was my first trip out to Little [Cottonwood Canyon]? It was probably within a year or two once I got out here. And there were some established things down at, what are the names of these things? All Thumbs? What's that area called? Tallie Casucci 30:24 The Secret Garden. John Cronin 30:25 Secret? Is that what it's called? Tallie Casucci 30:26 Yeah, Secret Garden and then The Gate also in the early years. John Cronin 30:30 Oh yeah, yes. The Gate was one of the first places that I went to. That and the Secret Garden. I remember Boone put up something really hard there. What is it? Tallie Casucci 30:42 Copperhead. John Cronin 30:43 Yes, thank you. And I try that over and over and over again for years and I couldn't do it probably two or three years. Just pissed me off. I could do All Thumbs, I could do all these V10s and I couldn't do that. It drove me nuts. I also did a bunch of boulder problems up at The Gate, which were just a ton of fun, but a little more. There's just a lot of fun. That was probably '94? '93-'94 I think when I first started climbing up there. And you know, you kind of climb the place out of bit and you're like, "Okay, well what's around here?" There boulders all over the place. I started exploring with Mike Call, Mike Beck, Steve Downes. We came across some really cool, like over where Duct Tape and Gerbils. Have you -9- been in that area? Yeah, but we found that area one day, maybe it was found before by Dale [Goddard]? We were pulling off moss that was this thick on Gerbils. It's just a carpet of moss that we just pulled off on that thing. So like, maybe somebody climbed some of the easier things there, but not definitely not the harder things. So that was fun. That was probably that was probably '90, before I left in '94. So sometime around '93 or so, I think that we were going out there. There were some other areas that we found too. It's just a great time to be in Little Cottonwood going out. I would go out there and climb and try to find stuff with them. But a lot of times they were going out on their own and they would find stuff. Tell me about it. Bring me and I'd be like, "Okay, yeah, this looks great. I think we can do this. Hopefully you won't mind if I do at first?” It was pretty friendly back there back then. So nobody was super secretive. Mike Beck might have been the person with the most attachment to boulder problems. He wanted to do them first. I mean, when we all found Duct Tape and Gerbils together. Mike's just like "You know, I found this first." But we're all there the same day, cleaning stuff off. I don't think he's ever done it to this day. That was 25 years ago. No, I don't think. We said, "No, Mike. We're not going wait. Let's just all do it." Yeah, good times. So yeah, bouldering in Little Cottonwood, at that time I helped put up a bunch of stuff, cleaned a bunch of stuff, had a great time, and then I split up with my wife at the time, this was late '94. And from there, I was involved with a woman that well, after we split up, I spent a couple of months in France and England, well mostly France. Then when I came back, I was only back briefly in Salt Lake and I move to just outside of Chattanooga, and in Georgia. I was there for about six months, climbing as much as I could. Working sort of here and there, it wasn't really an ideal situation. But I ended up getting a job with Scott Franklin. He started his own climbing company making holds and clothes and stuff up in Bend. So, I went from there up to Bend, Oregon, for about a year and a half I worked up there. And I'd come down occasionally and when I come down to see my daughter who lives here. So when I came down to see her, a lot of times those guys were still exploring, you know finding all these cool places and developing these areas. I'd go down and some things were undone, some things weren't. But you know, they were very generous at the time. Little Cottonwood is just such a unique place to climb because you've really got to be good with body tension and feet. You got to finesse a lot of climbs. Bend is all about that. Smith Rocks is about staying over your feet. I really enjoy that type of climbing. So coming back I was pretty fit for still remembering how to move. Little Cottonwood takes a little bit of, you got to sort of break into it, you got to learn how and what's gonna stick for your feet. You know, climbing in Smith, I don't know if you have a climb there? Tallie Casucci 35:53 No, but it's on the list. We have to go. John Cronin 35:57 Oh, it's so good. It's one of my favorites. There are many favorite climbing places that I have in the country. But that is still good. Pretty safe. It can be bold, depending on route, but oh man, the climbing is just spectacular. The scenery, the texture, the rock, it's just ideal. So let's see more about Little Cottonwood? So when I came back, I started climbing more and most of the climbing that I had time to do is was bouldering. I would either be in a gym or go out to Little Cottonwood Canyon. I don't think I went very many other places. The time commitment is just too much. I've kind of done all the routes that within my grade. Everything else required traveling. I think when I came back and there were a few places that were opening up like Ibex. People climbing Ibex, so I will climb out there. I climbed at Joe's [Valley]. It was quite a bit harder, I was sort of losing my psych too for climbing, so I didn't want to really - 10 - spend three hours in the car going somewhere to go climbing. You can see over time how things kind of faded. Just it's too hard to maintain. My elbows hurt like hell, I have bad tendinitis in my elbows. The standards were getting higher and I'm getting older and my body's breaking down. “Okay, the writing's on the wall. This is fun, but I'm going to find something else to do.” In 2007 I moved out from Salt Lake., and I didn't have to really worry too much about climbing after that. I still miss it. Talking about it, I kind of miss it. Those days were fun. The group of guys, we're still friends to this day. I come back and I'm like, “Mike Call, what are you doing? Steve Downes? Steve and Cynthia? You know, Mike Beck?” I don't really contact him that much, but I mean, we do keep in touch while we're here, sometimes I see him, sometimes I don't. I've got some good strong relationships here. My best friend, I don't know if you know who Sean Myles is? He's British climber who used to be one of the best climbers in the world. Like without a doubt, but nobody knew. He's very low key. Everyone knew Jerry Moffatt and Ben Moon. But John is just right there with them, climbing just as hard as they were. But he didn't do competitions. He kept out of the limelight you know, but he lives here now. So he's one of my best friends and I'll still stay with him. I actually have his truck. That's his truck. [points outside] When he first got here, before I moved out, we would go to Little and climb a little bit here and there. But already he was on the tail end to climbing as well. So for us, it's just hanging out, making fun of each other that we can't climb shit anymore. So that was fun. It's been a good time with Sean. Yeah, anything else about Little? Tallie Casucci 39:42 Yes. So you were, at least I've known your name with the association to a lot of highball boulders in the Canyon. What drew you to those lines? And then also how or what type of preparation do you do? John Cronin 40:01 Well, obviously, at a young age, when I fell out of a tree on the picket fence, I was not worried about consequences. [laughs] Right? Or I couldn't put the two and two together. It was a hard lesson to learn. I mean, I had that picket kind of go up. It hit me in the head a little bit. I'm lucky to be here, right? Tallie Casucci 40:23 Oh, so it went up your stomach? John Cronin 40:25 Yeah, it hit my stomach, hit my ribs. I told my mother that I tripped over a rock. She bought it, it's okay. [laughs] But you know, running down roofs. I'm just not super worried about my physical condition or about getting hurt. It wasn't till later, I started thinking about that. As far as climbing was concerned, especially doing bold stuff that is well protected. If I trust my gear, yes, it's unnerving being 10, 15, 20 feet out from your protection, right? But that's part of the game. For me it’s, can you keep your crap together? You know, looking at the next move and you're like, “Whoa, that's gonna be a long one. So, can I keep it together?” That part's fun. That's alluring for me. I really like that challenge of keeping your shit together. And if you don't, the consequences are pretty steep on routes, right? That's where I think I first started doing things that were challenging, such as run outs. So I kind of enjoyed that. But with bouldering I never did anything that I thought that I was gonna die. There were a couple things that, if you talk to Jeff Baldwin, there's this one boulder problem that I put up was like, 40 feet tall. Okay, so there's no surviving that or very low. We're out in the middle nowhere, it'd be pretty rough to get any help. But, the hard bit is the first 20 feet or even less, the first 15. It's just the last little bit that you can't - 11 - fall. I'm not like running up this thing. It's probably like 5.6 or maybe a little harder, I don't know, but like, I'm testing holds. I'm making sure that I'm not gonna, you know. Okay, there is a bit of risk involved, but as it was, to me, it seems somewhat calculated. Some of the stuff in Little Cottonwood that I've done, everything was sort of, like, there's this thing I've put up. Oh, you should interview, if you get a chance, Clark Shelk. Is he on your list? Clark was very instrumental in finding boulder problems, that he was very generous about showing me like some of the stuff that was outside of his realm of being able to do. Big Baby Jesus was one of them. And, you know, so Big Baby Jesus it's not super tall, but you can't fall at the last move. If you do fall, what's going to happen? So, for me, I was like, "Okay, I don't want to fall there." Because I went up and down in a bunch, and I'm like, "Okay, there's a big rock, if my hands slip, what's gonna happen?" So I think, “Here's what's gonna happen, my hands are gonna blow, my feet are on jugs, good holds, you're on, right? So my hands, let's just say my hands blow, I have enough time because my feet are solid, that I can turn around and hit this rock, just hit it with my feet, and then bounce and I put the pad right where I thought I would land. And I've never had to test it, but to me, it was fun. There's also a bolt up there on top of the boulder, but for me, that's not part of the game. Right? No coming down and scoping the hold, if I can go to the top and look down, you know, and maybe brush a couple of things as far as within my arms’ reach. At the time, that was within my realm of possibilities of doing a route and not having to use a rope to come down it. So I would go especially towards the end where I was climbing more and more that kind of stuff. I wanted to make sure that that I could downclimb anything. If I got past a certain move and it was hard, you know, and I couldn't downclimb, then there needed to be an exit plan that wasn't to fall off. I need to be able to like, “Okay, we put the pad in a certain spot.” There are a couple things that that I put up this thing called Ring Toss, which is not very, I heard it's completely changed. So when I did it, I went, who was up there? Who was I with? I think I was there with Cynthia. Yeah, I think maybe Steve as well. And this guy, Stefan Deny, he took a bunch of photos. He was up there taking photos that day. I think I even have the photos still to this day. But this is like an awesome line. But there's no falling. But you could go up to the top. I don't know if you ever see it? Tallie Casucci 45:54 Yeah, I'm familiar. John Cronin 45:55 Yeah, so if you hang from it, which I did. There's a hold that you jump off of which I heard is no longer there. So I would smack it with my hand and kick it you have to use this whole jumping off of this hold to the top. So every time I would do it, I would test it to make sure, because it looks like it's gonna blow off. And if it blows off, you're gonna land in the pit. Yeah, so I've done that. I don't know how many times, but I also did it without a pad because there's no guarantee of where you're going to land. But it just like to me I'm like, “Okay, I tested this hold. It's something I know I'm going to be able to do every time. It's not a hard move. It's just an interesting move.” It’s very interesting for anything out here in Little Cottonwood. So yeah. Probably no justification for doing that without a pad. For what I've heard, somebody was telling me that they completely fill in. Tallie Casucci 47:02 It depends on when you're there. - 12 - John Cronin 47:04 Oh, really? Tallie Casucci 47:04 Yeah, if there are trees. John Cronin 47:07 I heard they used rocks. Tallie Casucci 47:08 Oh, no. John Cronin 47:08 They used trees? Tallie Casucci 47:09 Limbs. John Cronin 47:11 Like really? Tallie Casucci 47:12 Yeah, logs. Last time I was up there. John Cronin 47:15 I don't want anybody to get hurt. So whatever anybody does, I don't care what they do. I really like that's just for me, it was the game that I was playing. You could certainly bring 15 pads to that and it'd be fine. Yeah, you could totally stack the pads up inside the pit. You could create the landing that goes across. You could totally do that. If that's your game, that's fine. I never really thought okay, there were a couple of things that I did, so Ring Toss is here. And there's this big wall right here. There's like, V5, V4 on it, maybe V2? I don't remember. There were two side by side. But they're big holds, like huge. Have you done that? Tallie Casucci 48:09 I think I've done one, but I bailed on the other. It's tall! John Cronin 48:14 It is tall. I don't think I put a pad down. I mean, it's sort of pointless, right? If you don't want to fall, but they're big holds. And, at the time, that was well within my limit. You have that particular one or there's one on the right, that's a bit harder, a little more scary, I suppose, a little more committing at the top, if I remember correctly. But they're both like you don't want to fall. That's sort of the tail end of my climbing career. I don't remember what year that was. - 13 - There's a couple other big things that I put up. So there's Babe. That has a I wouldn't necessarily think of as super consequential because you could put pads. We had pads at the bottom, but you still don't want to fall off because it's too high. Yeah, at the very top. I remember being there. I think Stefan was taking pictures. And I got to the hard bit and there's like a little shelf up there and there's a couple of hardish moves at the very top. The holds are big and it's somewhat sequential. I remember being up there and I couldn't remember what this sequence was and I was getting tired. So my arms are like this, and I'm like, "Holy shit! I'm gonna fall off of this thing." And I don't want to because it's a long way down. I ended up eking it out, but that was that was an interesting experience of being pumped on a highball. But I didn't get hurt and I got to the top. I was very grateful. I think I might have done it again that day. And I'm just like, “Oh, yeah, that sequence is so easy. I don't know what I was thinking.” I can't remember what it was, but some sort of underclings and you got to reach and something was going wrong. My feet weren't in the right spot. I don't remember. Yeah, highballs, they were fun! [laughs] As long as you didn't fall. If you fall, okay. I mean, I don't remember falling off anything too consequential where I ever got hurt. Tallie Casucci 50:37 That was the closest you came? John Cronin 50:38 I put up some highballs at some other places as well. I don't remember ever. I was always able to down climb out of things that I didn't think I was going to be able to do. There were a few of those. So over the years where I wasn't able to get to the top. I'm like, “I don't know, maybe this is a good hold?” And you get up there and you're like, “Oh, shit, that's bad. I may fall, that's too far. I don't want to get hurt.” I'm not a soloist, but I remember one of the first times that I did solo. I soloed with a climber friend of mine, and we were doing this 5.8 at the Gunks. A glorious 5.8, it's beautiful. It's a roof. But the roof is high enough that I remember just being completely freaked out, even though it was well, within my ability. That was sort of early on in my climbing. I did do some soloing after that. I've soloed some stuff that I have completely wired in Hell. There's like a 5.11d/12a, just to the left of the Hell Cave. Tallie Casucci 51:57 Reaching for Razors? John Cronin 51:58 That's it. Yeah, I could up and down climb all day long. I’m not likely gonna die if something goes terribly wrong. Let's see, I just solo stuff that I had completely wired, which is not necessarily a great thing to do with a family that you need to keep supporting. But everything felt within my abilities back then. Tallie Casucci 52:33 Did they know you were soloing? John Cronin 52:35 No. I had one bad experience. I haven't told too many people this, but I had one bad experience soloing. I was in the Gunks at the time, I was at a wall that is in the middle of nowhere. And there's - 14 - there are three routes on it. Ones like a 11d or 10d, 11d, no maybe there are four routes I can't remember. But I was trying to do the hardest route there. And that was like 12d, 13d? 12d? 13d? I can't remember. Anyway, I really wanted to do it. I brought all my stuff. I was hoping somebody was gonna be up there. I was I had my daughter with me, she's at the time four maybe? Yeah, somewhere around four. I was up there and couldn't find anybody to climb with. I'm up there with just her, so I'm just like, "Well, I'll just kind of traverse the bottom." And I'm like, "Well, how does go up the easiest route here." And I did go up the easiest route then I downclimbed it. And then there's another one to the left. I'm like, "Well, I'll just do this one." And they progressively get harder and harder. And that was the one to the left is probably like I think it was 11d or 12a, and it's something I had done a million times because that's the warm up, right? You progressively try your hard route. No one came, so I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna solo up this.” The last hard move is actually the insecure move is at the very, very top. It's basically a slab move, kind of trust your feet, get over your feet, and get to the top. I'm up there and I'm just had a moment of like, “Oh shit! I can't reverse this." I am getting over my feet, I'm like, "Oh, I could fall right now." If I did, I am not, I'd probably survive the fall, because it wasn't super super tall, but here I am with a four year old and I was just like "Holy shit!" I obviously eked it out. I got to the bottom, picked up all my shit, and left. And, you know, I don't think I soloed anything for a long time after that. That was a big eye opener. I mean, obviously I did, because coming here I soloed some stuff, but stuff that was way under my ability to. Also at that point my daughter was probably like 15 or 16, so enough that she would be okay, but not the smartest things that I've done. So, but also, highball bouldering that's some of the more gratifying things that I've done in climbing. It's just able to keep my shit together, have an exit somewhat of an exit plan, or if things go really wrong, what are the consequences? Tallie Casucci 56:04 Yeah, so it seems that you've enjoyed the mental challenge, whether it's your competition or keeping your cool on risky things. John Cronin 56:13 Not just not just a mental challenge, right? It's also it's the combination of mental challenge, plus using your body. It's a puzzle that you're figuring out, especially with bouldering, because you can change your body position just a hair and that just makes all the difference in the world. Can you can you figure that out? That is fun for me, or used to be? These days I have a good time with table tennis. Table tennis is like that. You change the paddle just a slight, move your body just slightly, can you reproduce that over and over again? And that's the challenge. Surfing is the same way. It's all incremental. You got to be just right on the board. You gotta know. Can't be too tired. You know? Can't be too afraid. Sometimes the waves out there big you know you’re all the good, all and excellent challenge. Tallie Casucci 57:19 Neat. John Cronin 57:20 Yeah. Tallie Casucci 57:21 - 15 - So in Little Cottonwood, there's a handful of boulders that have your name associated with them. Let's see, there's. John Cronin 57:30 We've talked about a few. Tallie Casucci 57:31 Yeah. Cronin's Arete, Cronin's Egg, Cronin's Dyno, Cronin's Slab. Did you name these? John Cronin 57:37 No, no, no, I didn't name any of them. Tallie Casucci 57:39 Really? [both laugh] [Steve] Maisch didn't name any of his either! John Cronin 57:43 Of course not! No. When you interview Mike, have you interviewed Mike? Tallie Casucci 57:53 Mike Beck? John Cronin 57:54 Yes, Mike Beck. Tallie Casucci 57:55 Someone else interviewed Mike Beck. John Cronin 57:56 Yeah. He wrote the guidebook, didn't he? Tallie Casucci 58:00 Yeah, he was one of the authors. He named it for you! [laughs] John Cronin 58:04 Sure? [laughs] Some of those weren't even mine. Tallie Casucci 58:08 Really? John Cronin 58:09 I'm pretty sure they weren't. Maybe? I don't know. Cronin's Egg. It was known as The Egg. Have you been up to climb? Tallie Casucci 58:18 - 16 - Yeah. John Cronin 58:19 Yeah. Mike Call showed that to me on one of my trips down from Bend to see my daughter. And he showed me, oh, these beautiful lines up there. Some of them are just amazing and one of them was The Egg. So it's Mike's Egg. It's Call's Egg, not Cronin's Egg. I just happened to do a first. What a great problem. Have you done that? Tallie Casucci 58:47 No, it's savage. [laughs] John Cronin 58:48 It's pretty good. Tallie Casucci 58:52 You might need a certain wingspan. John Cronin 58:55 It helps. That's one of the reasons why Mike Call didn't do it. He's not very tall. Tallie Casucci 58:59 No. John Cronin 59:01 No, that's it. That's a gorgeous one. Another good one on that hill is Triple Threat. So Clark showed me that. Clark Shelk, I don't know if he cleaned it or not. I don't remember. But he showed it to me. I was like, "Oh, that's the best line here." It end up that the best line is Wrist Rocket which is just to the left. But to me the line starts in the back and kind of not super hard. I think it's got somewhat of a consequence sort of finish, but you can put pads down it's totally safe. I think I might have even slipped off or something. I can't remember. But that side of the Hill is just awesome. There's so many good boulder problems up there. But no, no, a lot of that stuff that Mike named. Talk to him. Maybe Cronin's Egg because I did it first, but I didn't name it. It was called The Egg I don't know why he put Cronin's Egg. Cronin's Arete, I don't even know, where is that? Tallie Casucci 1:00:03 It's also at The Hill. John Cronin 1:00:05 Oh, yes, yes. Tallie Casucci 1:00:08 By the Gentleman's Jack. John Cronin 1:00:11 - 17 - Yeah, sort of slopey. Tallie Casucci 1:00:16 Two-tiered landing. John Cronin 1:00:18 Yeah, okay. Yeah. How hard is that? I don't remember. Tallie Casucci 1:00:25 I think V6. John Cronin 1:00:25 V6. Yeah, sounds about right, give or take. Tallie Casucci 1:00:29 Yeah. John Cronin 1:00:32 But again, that was I think I did that, I did The Egg and I did a few other just boulder problems that Mike Call showed me, “Those things are awesome. Thank you for showing me.” There's also this other person, Sam Tingey. Is he on the list? Okay, Sam did a bunch of stuff. He did a bunch of stuff after I stopped climbing too. So he'll be a good person to talk to. I don't know if he wants to talk. Does he? Tallie Casucci 1:01:02 I don't know. I don't have his contact information yet. John Cronin 1:01:05 Okay. I don't have it either. I wasn't necessarily friends with him. So there was a climbing gym here called Rockcreation. Will you here at that point when that was still here? Tallie Casucci 1:01:20 Yes. John Cronin 1:01:20 Well, I helped build that. I also helped them build a Front as well. Tallie Casucci 1:01:24 Oh really? John Cronin 1:01:26 The original, well not the original Front, but before they built the monstrosity which is behind. Tallie Casucci 1:01:32 The OG? - 18 - John Cronin 1:01:34 Yeah, the original one. I worked with Rob Gilbert. Do you know who he is? He built climbing walls. He also he was a part owner of the Front for a while and I helped him build that. I also helped build the Rockreation. Why did I want to tell you that? I don't remember. I don't know why I went into it. What were we talking about? Tallie Casucci 1:02:09 We were talking about The Hill before that. The Hill boulders. John Cronin 1:02:16 Yeah, I don't know why I brought that out. It was a lot of fun to work on that those projects. Tallie Casucci 1:02:24 How did you get involved with building the gyms? John Cronin 1:02:29 Well, being a climber for a one. The person that built Rockreation was a contractor. He was kind of a climber at the time. [coughs] Excuse me. He was looking for climbers because he knew that if you're going to be building a climbing wall you need climbers. I was doing construction at the time, so I worked on that project which was a lot of fun. Yeah, so I that's why I think I got into construction after like, after that project, I did a lot more construction around Salt Lake and Jeremy Ranch. And if one of these projects came up where it was specialty, I built a couple of walls with Rob Gilbert. You know, as a climber, you and as a person that does constructions you're going to be asked to do that kind of stuff. Which I don't do anymore. No more construction but got to old. It's very hard and your body. Tallie Casucci 1:02:31 Yeah, it destroys your body. John Cronin 1:03:39 It does. Yes, it does. Well, we were talking about what other Cronin's I did. I looked through the guidebook a few times, and I'm like, “why is this named after me?” Tallie Casucci 1:03:54 Cronin's Dyno and Cronin's Slab. John Cronin 1:03:57 Cronin's Dyno. I looked at that, so it's right across from the Five Mile boulder, right? It's like down the hill a little bit? Tallie Casucci 1:04:04 I'd have to check too. John Cronin 1:04:07 - 19 - I have no idea why. Let’s see I put up, what is that thing called? At the Five Mile border it's a little traverse on a bad mantle holds something have to do Tallie Casucci 1:04:28 Butt Trumpet? John Cronin 1:04:28 Thank you. It has to do with farts. [laughs] Tallie Casucci 1:04:31 Butt Trumpet. John Cronin 1:04:32 Butt Trumpet. Yeah, I put that up with a bunch of friends. Ian Glass. Has Ian's name come up at all? Tallie Casucci 1:04:40 Ian's name has come up. John Cronin 1:04:43 Ian and I first met in New York. And when we had the mass exodus of New York people to move out to Salt Lake. I was the first one. Well, I wasn't exactly the first one. There was this guy John Blumenthal, who's Hilary Silberman's husband. I saw Hillary on that list that you had. Hillary and John were on a long vacation. They were traveling throughout the country going climbing, big long road trip. Back in the days we wrote letters. He would write me letters and tell me about all the cool places that he went to. Right before I moving out to Boulder. He wrote me a letter about Salt Lake. He spent a couple of months out here, so that's why I decided to move to Salt Lake instead of because he said, “there were a great group of guys. It's really cheap.” Make sense to do that. God, I lose my thoughts so easy. Why did I bring up John's name? Man, there's just too much. Tallie, there's too much going on in my head. Tallie Casucci 1:05:50 It's all coming back. John Cronin 1:05:51 Yeah, it's all fragmented. [laughs] Why did I tell you? There was a reason for that, shit. I should be writing all this down. Tallie Casucci 1:06:01 Were they tied to building the gyms and that type work? John Cronin 1:06:07 No. I don't think so. Yeah, sorry. I've lost it. Tallie Casucci 1:06:20 It was a long time ago. - 20 - John Cronin 1:06:22 It was '92. So '91 when I decided that I wanted to move out. It took a little while to get that plan in gear to come out. A few months. Tallie Casucci 1:06:39 I find it fascinating that it was John's letter to you about Salt Lake that completely had you pivot from your original plan of going into Boulder. John Cronin 1:06:51 I trusted him. He had done some competitions with his wife too at the time, Hillary. So you know, I would call him and we would talk about climbing. We had been on a couple of trips and climb together the Gunks. So I trusted his word. And also, back in '88 I had I came out for the second Snowbird competition. And that's when I met Boone for the first time. No, I don't think I met. I met Mike Beck I think. Mike Beck had flowing locks of blonde hair. It was really cool looking. It's like "Who is this guy?" Anyway, I trusted John. He had met Boone and a bunch of other people and climbed with them. He said this would be a great community, very positive community to be in. And he was right. He was totally right. Tallie Casucci 1:08:01 Where are you at the Snowbird comps or just John? John Cronin 1:08:05 I, the Snowbird comp? Tallie Casucci 1:08:07 Yeah, Snowbird. Did you competed in those? John Cronin 1:08:09 Yeah, that's how I met. So I was here in '88 and I moved out at '92. So in '88 is when I met some of the Salt Lake climbers. Tallie Casucci 1:08:21 What was the Snowbird comp like and did you compete? John Cronin 1:08:25 I did, and I didn't do very well. It's one of the reasons that made it very obvious that I'm not training enough to do well. I didn't get very far. There was a qualifying route up the side. I don't know if you remember? The wall wasn't even here when you were. There was a wall that went up the flat, very flat side and then the corner of the building, there was an overhang that went out to a slab. And I didn't even get to climb on that because I was on the qualifying route. I didn't get very far. It was early on in my climbing, as I had started in '87. This was a year later, I had very little climbing competition experience. I didn't do very well, but had a great time. Was that my first? That was might have been my first National competition? No, it wasn't my first. My first national was in Boulder. And I think it was the - 21 - same summer that that competition at Snowbird was going on, I think. Too many years ago! I've got all of this written down at home. I have all the dates, because I save the list of who goes when, I've got all these names of who I competed against in my box of memorabilia. So yeah, it's nice, I could go back and find out exactly what dates those are, but not that important. Not anymore. Something for my daughter to go through when I'm no longer around, or she can listen to this? Tallie Casucci 1:10:32 She can donate it to the library. [both laughs] John Cronin 1:10:37 Nobody would ever want this. Tallie Casucci 1:10:39 You'd be surprised. John Cronin 1:10:41 I have lists from after the competitions that they'd have information on where everybody's placed. I had a bunch of that. It was from the organization that kept track of who did what and which competitions, it was the American Sport Climbing Federation? So I have all that old stuff where I was ranking, which competitions, they have a graph of which competitions where you came in how many points you had. So I still have that. I still have a number of those things. Proof that I did actually do that, because years later, I just I don't really think about this stuff anymore. So it's kind of fun to go back and think about this. Tallie Casucci 1:11:36 Were there any other memorable climbs or experiences in the mountains that have had an impact that we haven't talked about? John Cronin 1:11:46 Outside of Salt Lake? Tallie Casucci 1:11:48 Or outside of the climbs we've talked about or experiences we've talked about. John Cronin 1:11:58 Memorable experience? You know, each time you go out. For me, yes, I wanted to push myself, but for me it's always been about the people that I've been with. Mike Beck would go out and boulder by himself all the time, and I don't think I've ever done that. I'm pretty sure I haven't tried something on my own. There's no motivation. You need some camaraderie. You need some support or just I get bored. Somebody to shit talk with, right? That's part of going climbing for me. So, let's see, memorable? Tallie Casucci 1:12:48 Memorable trips? - 22 - John Cronin 1:12:49 Memorable trips? They're all memorable. You know, visiting Ibex, I mean, what a what a crazy place. Finding boulders out there. I think I did some stuff out there. I don't even remember anymore, but I remember just loving the place and the place is awesome. Looking for stuff. We're looking for boulder problems out there too. There were a couple things that I tried to do that were kind of hard. But there was just a little bit outside my scope of climbing. Tallie Casucci 1:13:26 For the boulder, did you ever try to do it first try and then walk away? Or for bouldering was it more putting the time in to do it? John Cronin 1:13:39 Well, depends. So if I first came up to an area like Ibex’s main wall was developed, so I tried to do everything first try, anything that was V9 or V10, which was within my scope of doing, so I always tried to do first time. I remember going out to oh, what's that bouldering area? Bishop. There's thing called Stained Glass and I tried to flash that. And I don't think I flashed it, but did it second try or something like that. That was somewhat of a goal for me. I was out there for a couple of days and I climbed as much as I could, and I couldn't climb the second day because I had no more skin left. But I climb that. I think I flashed a V9 when I was there. I was also at the peak of my bouldering. I knew how to climb and I was somewhat fit and not injured. So, you know, I was able to climb at a standard that was high for me. So let's see, I was thinking about some other boulder problems that I've done first try. I remember being an Ibex, and one of the goals I had was climbing three V10s in a day and I did that. That was right before going out to Bishop, a couple of weekends before that. So it was all in this one period of being somewhat fit. Having a good time, send some goals, right? I can't remember the names of these things too many years ago, but did the climb just left of Ju. There's like V10 there, I can't remember what it's called, something that Chris Sharma put up. And then behind it was the Atomic Bomb, and there's like V9 called The Bomb, but there's a sit start to it. I think that's what it is. Too many years have gone by. Oh, here's a memorable trip. I went to Yosemite after I started climbing, in the winter of '87. Actually, I went to Joshua Tree, which was an absolutely memorable trip, because I'd never been out in New York and basically going out to Joshua Tree is like going to the moon. So that was cool. But we stupidly made plans to go up to Yosemite, rent the car up to Yosemite, and fly out of San Francisco instead of flying out of Palm Springs, which was a lot of work. We spent a night in Yosemite and at the time, a day and a night, at a time I was bouldering a little bit in Joshua Tree, but I think Midnight Lightning had been put up like three or four years before that give or take and that was on my radar. So I went there and with very little climbing skill. I couldn't climb. There's snow on the ground and I couldn't the opening holds. I think I could just grab on and maybe get to the next hold. I'm standing on my friend's shoulders like feeling the other holds like then we left and I went back in '99 I think it was I went out with this guy Todd Berlier. He climbed a bunch around, but he was trying Midnight Lightning at the time. And it was a year or so after I got I was still somewhat I was still training systems, somewhat fit, and I wanted to go out and do that because it was on my hit list. So one weekend we drove from Salt Lake went to Yosemite. The plan was to do somewhat of a big wall on Sunday and go bouldering on Saturday. Right so we figured we wouldn't have any skin left so let's just do something easy and long so we did like a - 23 - 12, but it East Buttress of Middle Cathedral? It's like 5.10 or something, long run good route, but the main goal was Midnight Lightning. And you know I flashed to the top and it's just I want to do the Midnight Lightning move, right? Which is you do this, I don't know if you know much about it, it's got this crazy mantle. But I am too big. Literally too big, too tall to do this. But I insist that I'm going to exit this this boulder problem. I think Boone Speed was there that day too. And he's like "Dude, there's a there's a big edge up there. And that's how the big guy does it. He just goes right from these holds up to this edge." I'm like, "I don't want to do it that way. I want do, I can do the mantle." I fell off of that like six times. First time I grabbed the edge, it was over, but it was it was such a great experience going. It was middle of summer. It was hotter than hell. Way too hot to be bouldering. I tried a bunch of V10s too that day and had no skin left and climbed the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral which is like awesome. 5.10, get down the gully, get in the car, and drive home. That was that was a memorable trip for me. Not necessarily highball bouldering, but bouldering none the less. That was a great trip. I lived not far from Yosemite now. Last year, this woman that I'm dating, she really wants to go to Yosemite often, so I've been there four times within the year. So we experience all these different seasons like summer, winter, spring, and fall. So we'll probably go back again. What a great place. Have you been out there? Tallie Casucci 1:16:24 No. John Cronin 1:20:23 Magical! Yeah, completely magical. Tallie Casucci 1:20:29 Who were your mentors? Or people that you have admired? John Cronin 1:20:36 In the climbing community? Tallie Casucci 1:20:37 Yeah, or in life that made you who you are. John Cronin 1:20:42 I think, early on, as I started climbing more and getting somewhat more notoriety. I think I remember having somewhat of a tough time with it, just because people were making assumptions about me. And yeah, you hear people say some stuff. I think I met Lynn Hill early on. And she was an absolute inspiration, even before I met her. I met her in the Gunks and I was completely impressed with her ability to talk to people, like she just doesn't know, right? Or even people that she might have met in the past, that she may not have remembered them. But she was so incredibly gracious. If I didn't remember somebody's name, I get super nervous. I'd be like, "Oh, man, I can't remember this person's name." She wouldn't do that, rather just say, "Hey, you know, I'm really sorry, I can't remember your name. Can you tell me?" That sort of opened my eyes to like, “Holy crap, it's okay not to know everybody's name.” She was super sweet and super nice. I'm like, “That's kind of the person that I want to emulate.” Even in life, not necessarily about climbing in life. She's an all around great person. I think she sort of stood out early in my career. When I was young, we couldn't have this conversation, when I was 19, like, - 24 - zero, I was really painfully shy and climbing kind of changed my world. It completely changed who I am. When I grew up, my family was far from wealthy. We were mostly in poverty, pretty much, food stamps type stuff, and climbing completely took me out of that world and opened up my eyes to what was possible. A lot of that had to do with just networking and meeting people and being nice. This is how you get around in the world and that has served me really well. I'd say in the past four years, it's very important now, as I'm sort of at the end of my working career, roughly. I got probably about another 10 years left, but it served me really well in dealing with people that in order for me to get my job done now I have to depend on a ton of people. If I don't have great working relations with them, I'm not going to get stuff done. So, I mean, climbing has taught me a crapload and I've really appreciate the time that I spent doing it. Yeah, it’s too bad I could keep with it, but my elbows fell apart. I just went as far as I could. I really love the challenges of it and you get to a physical part in your life you're like, “Well, you're never gonna progress any more than you have. Can you can you have fun doing that, even when going backwards?” And for me, it's “No.” Well, there's plenty other things out there that's equally as challenging or continue to be, I will never be the surfer I want to be. I will never be the table tennis player that I want to be. But the climber, I was close to the thing I wanted to be or to level I wanted to get up. So, I'm satisfied for the most part. Tallie Casucci 1:24:46 Can you talk a little bit about your job and what you do? John Cronin 1:24:49 I work for the University of California Santa Cruz. I am facilities. So I manage a bunch of buildings. I manage a bunch of people. Basically, I run the residential side of the facilities. So student dorm rooms and apartments. So they can be very challenging. Extremely challenging. And, you know, I jokingly refer to my job as running a hotel for unruly children. [laughs] Which, you know, I can't really fault them too much, because that was me at their age, when they totally wreck the place. Now, I've done my fair share doing just stupid shit, so I can't fault them too much. But yeah, that's my job right now. My job is to managed about 40 buildings, about 3,500 beds or so that I'm responsible for. Yeah, I'm looking actually to get another job, because I've been doing this for about five years, and there are no more challenges in the job. I know exactly how to do my job. And maybe I'd stick with it the last 10 years, but probably not. I have a hard time doing my job because I work for a state-run institution and there's not a lot of money. There's not a lot of resources to get my job done. So it's really challenging in a way that's annoying. I'm forced to instead of thinking about my job in the future and making adjustments in the future, I'm constantly putting out fires. It’s an interesting job. Interesting. Paying the bills. I'm looking forward to retirement. "10 more years" is what I keep telling myself. We'll see how long I can stick it out. Tallie Casucci 1:27:05 Nice. So how do you balance that work, table tennis, surfing, plus, personal life and family life? John Cronin 1:27:16 My job is somewhat sucking everything? I'm constantly on call. If some kid lights the place on fire or sets off a sprinkler or whatever, I'm the person that's got to show up in the middle of the night. So there's not a lot of balancing. I just recently had shoulder surgery. Stephen and Cynthia, Steve Downes and Cynthia Levinthal came out about a year ago, almost exactly, and they wanted to go mountain - 25 - biking, and I had mountain bike a bunch, but I hadn't in a while, probably in three years. My mountain bike was not in a shape to take it, so I took my electric street bike, which I was having a great time with. Until about the last half minute of the ride, which I could almost see the parking lot from where I went down. I was out there for two hours. And I hit a rock and I fell into the rocks with my shoulder. That was the first point of contact, and it just blew it up. So I'm recovering from that. I just had shoulder surgery at August 1. I just got clearance to start doing more things. And there's something not quite right in there right now. So kind of staying away. I tried playing table tennis and it was not good. So I'm gonna continue to do the physical therapy. Tallie Casucci 1:29:07 I can see the difference. John Cronin 1:29:09 Yeah, this side. Well, it's not that this side is lower, it's the clavicles now higher. So, yeah, it's not been great. But, you know, it's sort of limiting the things that I can do that I want to do. So now I’m focusing on things like trying to get another job. I just put in another application. And that takes a lot of work. And you know, you've applied for a university position, it's work to apply for a job. So, you know, my job sucks up as much time as I want to allow. Yeah, personal life, I’m dating a woman who lives in Miranda and I live in Santa Cruz, so 80 miles from my house. We're just dating though. I'm just concentrating on getting through the day at this point. It's been great being here. My emails are mounting and when I get back, I'll have a couple 100 to go through. I try to stay on top of the stuff so that it will make it easier for my transition when I get back in a week. When I come back here, I'm like, "God damn, this place is beautiful. I know a ton of people." I was at the Coffee Garden the other day, I saw Jonathan Knight and I'm just like, "Jonathan, I haven't seen you in three, four years." And luckily, I saw him outside. Like, "Hey, I ran into Cynthia Leventhal." He knows her, so I'm trying to stay away from people right now, but I'm feeling pretty good. So we'll see. Anyway, it's just, I know a ton of people here. The people here feel like family to me. I can go away and not talk to people for a long time, and then just connect with them, which I don't necessarily have in California. So, you know, when you spend some time with people that you go climb with and they're responsible for your life, you build these bonds with people that you don't have any others, at least for me in any other sort of facet of my life. I have good solid relationships with the people that I've climbed with. So, it's been great. Tallie Casucci 1:31:45 Yeah, some lifelong friends? John Cronin 1:31:47 Lifelong friends, fully. I was gonna stay at Steve and Cynthia’s house too. I was going to stay with my daughter and Sean Miles' place and their place, but Cynthia getting Covid threw a wrench into my plans. A big wrench. Tallie Casucci 1:32:07 I've been asking everyone this, what's the biggest challenge you see facing the climbing community? John Cronin 1:32:16 - 26 - Here in Salt Lake? Tallie Casucci 1:32:17 In Salt Lake or just general? John Cronin 1:32:19 That's an easy one really. This is just from talking to friends. The explosion of people that want to go into the mountains. My friend Sean, is like, "I don't even go on the weekends." He's like, "It's just, it's nuts. It's just nuts around here." Overuse. It was a lot easier, when I knew all the climbers back in the ‘90s, right? You know, there were a bunch and I knew some climbers down in South Valley and knew climbers down in Provo and Orem. I knew most of the people that were sort of pushing the standards or even just below that. With explosion climbing gyms, I think it’s problematic in a few different ways in that people come out of the gyms and they don't necessarily know how to climb outdoors, because it's completely foreign to them. I think that's really challenging. Keeping people safe. I think that whole Alex Honnold footage of him, which I refuse to see, because I think it's just promoting bad behavior by people who don't know what they're doing. Right? But that's not necessarily a Salt Lake issue. But I think for Salt Lake, the biggest issue really is just that there are so many climbers now. I talked to Steve and he's dead set against that tram they want to put up in Little. Tallie Casucci 1:33:59 The gondola? John Cronin 1:34:00 Yeah, the gondola. That seems like a shit idea to me too. There's got to be some alternatives to this. This seems like a terrible idea. I guess that's a challenge. So, you know, access. More people that go up, more chances of people getting hurt. Is access being limited by the Church now? They own a bunch of that land up there. Right? I think they do. Tallie Casucci 1:34:28 Yeah, Salt Lake Climbers Alliance signed a lease, so now we can legally access their property, or most of it. So, it's a step in the right direction. John Cronin 1:34:41 Yeah, it is. I mean, it was traumatic when they took a bunch of boulders. You know, ground them all up and made them into the siding that's the Conference Center downtown. That was traumatic. And it's like, “Oh, well, we could do that to the entire place if they want to.” Yeah, what are what are some of the other challenges? I don't know. I think those are the big. It's just having too many people. Too many people climbing, but maybe we can just keep them in the gyms, it's not so bad. Don't go outside. There's plenty of room for people. I think it's just like, where do you park? Tallie Casucci 1:35:28 Yeah, the infrastructure and environmental concerns. John Cronin 1:35:32 - 27 - Yeah, if you're climbing, let's say you got a group of climbers climbing at The Gate. I guess that has the most parking across the street you've got you can park along the road there. There are parking issues down at Secret Garden, right? I don't know if they still have it, but can you park on this side of the road for the Secret Garden anymore? I thought I saw no parking signs. Tallie Casucci 1:35:58 Potentially. They widen the road there, but the Park and Ride lot is not far. John Cronin 1:36:03 It's not far. Yeah. Climbers who have been climbing here forever are spoiled. Tallie Casucci 1:36:09 You have to walk more than 20 feet. John Cronin 1:36:13 You bypass the boulders. You know? Have they been done? There's still plenty of good bouldering, plenty of good bouldering up there. Across from where Ring Toss is, I forget what the name of that areas, but across the street? I did a bunch of bouldering up there with people. Tallie Casucci 1:36:34 White Pine North? John Cronin 1:36:34 Yes. Tons of good stuff. This place is still not that climbed out. There's got to be other places. Tallie Casucci 1:36:43 Oh, if you are willing to hike too. John Cronin 1:36:47 Yeah. Tallie Casucci 1:36:49 A lot, a lot of options. John Cronin 1:36:50 That's the great thing about Little Cottonwood. Ton and ton of stuff still left. Tallie Casucci 1:36:57 What impact do you hope to have on the community? John Cronin 1:37:01 I just want to fade away. [laughs] I think it's somewhat funny that I still get contacted by Mike Beck thinking I did some highball that I did do. I think it was him, I'm pretty sure. He's just like, "You know, the longer you spend away from this place, the more your legend grows." - 28 - Tallie Casucci 1:37:27 And he puts your name on everything! John Cronin 1:37:29 Yeah exactly! I've become this mystical figure since I've left. I'm like, “Oh, that's really kind of funny. I was out having a good time with the guys.” You know, all I really want to do was go bouldering with my friends and having a good time. What impact going forward? If I ever move back here, I'd like to just go bouldering again. Yeah, but it's probably gonna be with a top rope, I can't fall. I can't fall now. Tallie Casucci 1:38:07 It'll be a new tactic for you. [laughs] John Cronin 1:38:10 Now, I can't ever see going back to anything at this age. I remember, probably in the early 2000s, I was climbing in at the Front, the old Front, or the Front before it expanded, and I remember coming off the top a few times. I was in my 40s and I'm just like, "This is not good. This is actually painful." Where that wasn't the case in my 30s. Now, I'm in my 50s, so things haven't gotten any better. Things have gone the wrong way. So yeah, I think if I also came back, you know, Steve is or used to be when he had time, he was involved with the Salt Lake Climbers Alliance, and I haven't really. I have fond memories of the place, so I would like to contribute. We used to have these trail building days, where I'd help out and that was a lot of fun. So I'd like to continue to do that. I don't know what else I could do really, you know, just try to be a positive force. Climbing has just taught me so much, you just want to make sure that people have access to that, right? You know, being so far away, it's not a question I've ever even thought about. Interesting question. Interesting question. Tallie Casucci 1:39:49 Is there anything else that we haven't talked about that you'd like to share? John Cronin 1:40:04 I just have all these memories of climbing. All these special places that I've gone to, they don't necessarily relate to Salt Lake other than a lot of climbers from here, we would go on climbing trips together. Tallie Casucci 1:40:21 It's a good home base. John Cronin 1:40:23 This is a great home base. And it's also a place that I just love coming back. I was driving over here and I'm driving around 2-15. I'm like "Well, I've been here for three days, I haven't been up to Little or Big. This is crazy. I should get into the mountains." So I'll probably do that over the next day or two, depending on what the weather holds. I should have done it yesterday, but I've been spending time with my daughter. Yeah, it's good. I love coming back here, it is a great place. Changed quite a bit since I left. A lot of people here now. A lot of changes South Valley where my daughter lives, this was - 29 - all farmland and now it's houses. Yeah, it's really weird. It's just the way things are. When I first arrived in '88, I remember landing, I was like, “Somebody said ‘This was the city?’ Where's the city? It's like six buildings downtown?” It was sort of suburban. Now, and I haven't done this in a while, but I’d go out to American Fork and used to turn at Point of the Mountain and as soon as you got off the highway, there was nothing until you got to the town of American Fork. There were a couple of buildings, there was one place where you stop out for snacks, like in a gas station. And then there was like maybe some developments here and there. But nothing, nothing. And I remember when Micron was built. I don't know if it's still there, as Micron built this giant building out there on the way down on the left hand side, and then they went out of business or they decided not to continue along. I don't know what that building, but that I remember when that was built. But that was like, in the middle of nowhere. Tallie Casucci 1:42:31 It's filled in. John Cronin 1:42:32 It's filled in? Can you see it? Can you see Micron anymore? Tallie Casucci 1:42:37 Yeah, I think so. John Cronin 1:42:38 Yeah, that's what people tell me. It's like all the way to the entrance of American Fork. Tallie Casucci 1:42:44 There's maybe one or two farms. John Cronin 1:42:50 Really that made it? Tallie Casucci 1:42:51 Yeah, currently, not many. John Cronin 1:42:55 That's somewhat sad. That's the price of exponential growth. Capitalism. You need growth. And Salt Lake has seen it. Has seen quite a lot. Yeah, that's about it. I've got tons of memories, but how do they relate to Salt Lake? Other than the friendships which I previously discussed? It's just a great place. How long have you been here? Tallie Casucci 1:43:42 10 years. John Cronin 1:43:43 Yeah. So you're seen a lot of growth in 10 years? - 30 - Tallie Casucci 1:43:46 Yes, Sugar House was a pit. John Cronin 1:43:51 I had a house there in Sugar House. Yeah, it's an interesting place. This is a nice. When I was coming up. I came up 27th. And then I remember that little, yeah. I'm just like, “Oh, yeah. I remember this. Used to be the way we used to go, when I used to work at Black Diamond.” Tallie Casucci 1:44:12 I didn't know that. John Cronin 1:44:13 Yeah, years ago. I still keep in touch with a bunch of people. Is Johnny Woodward on your list? He'd be interesting to talk to. I would definitely talk to Johnny. I was actually supposed to, he’s into some of the same things that I've been to now. We just recently started talking to each other again. He likes motorcycles and so do I. But he was and still is to this day, going around putting up new routes around Utah. He's just low key about it. He may not even want to talk to you. That low key. He doesn't want to divulge any information in where stuff is. He's a character. He is a total character, but yeah he's been here since, man, probably '87 '86 '85 somewhere around when Black Diamond first moved here. Yeah, he was married to Mariah. Do you know Mariah Cranor? She used to work there too, she left Black Diamond a while ago. But yeah, Johnny has put up a ton of routes around here. Ton of routes. Jonathan Knight too. A ton of routes and he's still does it. Noah [Bigwood], I saw on your list that was a good person to talk to. Yeah, you gotta get their stories. There'll be good ones if you can get Johnny to talk, or either John, Jonathan Knight or Johnny Woodward. Tallie Casucci 1:45:57 There is an oral history with Jonathan Knight. John Cronin 1:45:59 There is? Tallie Casucci 1:46:00 Yeah. John Cronin 1:46:01 Yeah, that's good. So, he spoke? He can be a quiet guy. But Mike Call is another good one. Tallie Casucci 1:46:08 Yeah. Mike Call is great. John Cronin 1:46:10 You know, it would, to me, it would be beneficial to contact Mike Beck again, because he is still very much part of this climbing culture around here. Steve and Cynthia are on your list and they're great. So. Okay. Anything else? - 31 - Tallie Casucci 1:46:31 I don't think so. Thank you so much for coming out and chatting. John Cronin 1:46:35 You're very welcome. This was quite an interesting experience chatting with somebody that I don't know about climbing. Tallie Casucci 1:46:42 Yeah, thank you. John Cronin 1:46:43 No problem. - 32 -