Oral history interview of Jennifer Barlow, conducted by Tanner Evans (transcript)

Jennifer Barlow discusses her previous role as an educator and her current job in a physical therapy office. She is also the main caretaker for her father. She discusses the impact of the pandemic on her work and family life.

Jennifer L. Barlow Bountiful, UT An Interview by Tanner Evans March 20th, 2022 Utah Covid-19 Digital Collection Project J. Willard Marriott Library Special Collections Department University of Utah Salt Lake City, Utah -1- Transcribed by https://otter.ai Evans, Tanner b. 2022 Jenny currently lives with her father in Bountiful, Utah and is his main caretaker. Jenny use to be a elementary school teacher, but quit in 2019 and started working as a receptionist in a physical therapist’s office. Seeing as Jenny is her father’s main caretaker, who is an elderly man in his late eighties, she was able to give good insight on the fears she had to face while navigating through the pandemic with her dad. Since physical therapists’ offices were deemed as necessary work places, they remained opened during the pandemic. Her role in the physical therapist’s office allowed her to give good insight on how the patient and doctor relationship dynamic changed during the pandemic and also she was able to see how the pandemic affected others emotionally and mentally, whereas most people weren’t able to see that because of them being in quarantine for the first couple weeks, with limited communication only with family and close friends. Medical Humanities Oral History Transcription Mon, 3/21 1:05PM • 39:25 SUMMARY KEYWORDS people, pandemic, physical therapy, patients, family, dad, situation, physical therapists, home, offices, stay, doctor, sick, mask, thought, lost, super, interesting, wear, feel Tanner Evans 00:02 Okay, Hi, Jenny, how are you? Jenny Barlow 00:04 I'm well, Tanner, how are you? Tanner Evans 00:06 Doing good. Thank you. So do we just want to go over? Do you want to give us some background info about your occupation? Jenny Barlow 00:13 Sure. Sure. So, um, I was a public educator for 11 years, and I quit in 2019, just before COVID. And now I work as a receptionist in a physical therapy office. And I run six clinics. Tanner Evans Oh, yeah, thank you. So maybe we can start with that how was going through that process? Once COVID hit. Jenny Barlow 00:37 It was crazy. So um, so physical therapy offices were deemed necessary by Homeland Security. So we were never shut down. In fact, we were asked to stay open. So the thought was that we could, as -2- Transcribed by https://otter.ai medical professionals, physical therapists could take patients that were struggling with pain or a lack of physical activity. And they could be seen in physical therapy offices, which would take some of the demand off of doctors offices, and hospitals and urgent cares. So we did see a lot of people that were having issues with pain management, that maybe in other times would have gone to the urgent care or the ER or just to a doctor, but couldn't, because they were overwhelmed with other things that were more urgent. So we would see people for just really quick, short periods of time to tell them no, that's not infected. Yes, you can try this, just to kind of alleviate some of the overflow on doctors offices and medical clinics. So we stayed busy ish, we lost about half of our patients on a daily basis. So there were a few months, in mid March. So starting mid March to about June, where we maybe had a half to a quarter of the patients that we would normally have. It was in particular, noticeable in the elderly people, we have a therapist that works with vertigo and balance issues, which a lot of elderly people struggle with. And her clientele would drop from 20 patients a day to maybe four, just because they were too scared to leave or to come in or to whatever. So our business was, was affected tremendously. But in the grand scheme of things that we still stayed open the whole time. Tanner Evans 02:27 Oh, that's so interesting. I didn't know that also, how patients would come over and you guys almost acted not as a hospital or anything but like, right. Jenny Barlow 02:34 but as an intermediary before, they'd end up in the doctor's offices or an urgent care or a hospital. Because if they thought they had an infection, but it was really just something they could treat at home, then they never even needed to go to a hospital so we could alleviate some of that caseload from doctors. So I thought that was cool. Tanner Evans02:53 That's cool. Has that continued? Like Do people still do that? Jenny Barlow 02:59 Now seeing is that probably, um, to a degree, I think it's hard to know, though, if that's because of COVID, or just the business I work with is really patient focused. And they can be as physical therapists where they don't, I mean, patients are limited by their insurance plans of what they can get. But I'm, the company I work with each therapist has discretion to see people as courtesies or for free if they think it's necessary. And almost every single one of them has a caseload of people they see for free, that they think need more care, but their insurance won't pay for it. So I work for a good group of people that I think are willing to help so not so much because of COVID. That part hasn't changed. It's not still the same now. Um, and we did do a little bit of telehealth, but it's hard to do physical therapy over, over this. Yeah. Over zoom or something. Tanner Evans 03:51 Yeah, you're trying to describe how… Jenny Barlow 03:55 -3- Transcribed by https://otter.ai It's like, bend it more. Yeah. And so that part was a little trickier. We did wear masks for almost two straight years. We cleaned anytime someone touched anything. And we still do that. So we tried to make it as safe as possible for people. Tanner Evans 04:11 It's nice. I bet that was. So since you're able to continue working, that probably took a great life. In terms of financial stress, you probably didn't have that as much as some others. Jenny Barlow 04:22 I was lucky. I was super lucky because I never had to worry. I still got a paycheck. We are a relatively small business still. So we we qualified for the government grants. So I don't remember what it was called. But we did qualify for that. Um, so yeah, I never went without a paycheck. And I never none of us ever got laid off. Um, so that was a huge relief. And I was really lucky. And I knew how lucky I was the whole time. Super lucky. Tanner Evans 04:49 Okay, now moving into part so you are you're the main caretaker for your dad, right? Jenny Barlow 04:57 Yes. Tanner Evans 04:58 So how was that going into, or I guess first you want to tell us a little bit about your dad? Jenny Barlow 05:03 Sure. Um, my dad is currently as of today, he's 87. Um, so I am the caretaker, I'm the youngest of five kids. And I'm the one who lives here and takes care of my dad. He has been really physically active his whole life. And he's in really good health for being the he is the biggest concern I had, because I live with him is bringing something home to him. And I was paranoid about that. So I would change my clothes, like I would come in the bat, I would leave and go and go and go and come out of the back door of our house. So that I wasn't always in direct contact with him coming and going. And I would change my clothes and put up my hair as soon as I got home, or I'd shower as soon as I got home. So I was super paranoid for the first, I don't know, six months to a year. Um, what I noticed in him is, I wouldn't say he's super social and active with people. But I could see how lonely he was just being separated from family. Yeah. And so we, I have, like I said, I had five siblings, four siblings, and so we had to agree on what the best care for him would be. And so that meant, we had several visits from family members through doors or windows without having direct contact. Or we have a like a family, gathering a lunch or dinner outside on a lawn, so that we wouldn't be direct contact. And even though we tried to maintain a lot of that, it he was still mentally I could tell he was bored and lonely. Um, so I believe it was August or September, that I convinced my siblings to agree, as though we all had control over what my dad did. But we tried to let him come into my business for physical therapy so that he could get some physical exercise with a trained professional in an environment that I felt was safe for him. Yes. And I think that helped a ton, I think for him. And everyone made a big deal about him coming in. And they were super friendly to him. So I think that mentally helped a bunch. And we were just -4- Transcribed by https://otter.ai always aware of people around that were in his same predicament and how lonely that would be. And the mental toll that would take on you Tanner Evans 07:30 And the mental toll that would take on you was oh, sorry. Especially as people get older, that seems to be a trend anyways, right? Like, you become distant from family, you become distant from friends. It seems like when the pandemic hit, it hit the elderly, especially hard in terms of that sense. And we kind of in my class, we even talked about how, like their loneliness, isolation, like, depression levels increased immensely, right? Jenny Barlow 08:00 So well, and I think just your will to live, which sounds dramatic, but I think that's true, I think, being separated from society, where you have little control over what's happening. And I think for elderly people, they had their children or grandchildren or whomever, caretakers trying to make good decisions for them. But they're still adults. And even though I tried to do what I thought was best, he's an adult. And to a degree, I think we took some of his control away. And I think that was hard for him to because he's the dad. Tanner Evans 08:39 Yeah, like he throws kind of a switch, right, like he was your caretaker. And it's hard for him to accept that his kids are taking care of him now, in a sense… Jenny Barlow 08:47 right. Right. And I think that's hard enough for older people and an older person anyway. But then I would let him go to the store, and I ran all the errands, and I cleaned all the all the groceries. And it was a lot of just drama. That I think in the time I thought that was best, then, and even now I still try to limit where he goes and what he does. But he's an adult, and he gets to choose still. So I have to let that happen. Because he's a he's a big kid, you can do it. Tanner Evans 09:19 Yeah, that's true. I'm here. Oh, so I guess with your dad, or just with your family as a whole when COVID was new, and it was, you know, just uncharted waters, what were some initial fears that you guys were all feeling at that time? Jenny Barlow 09:38 I thought I would kill my dad. I literally thought I would have to live my whole life knowing that because of my still going to work and my being out in the world, even to a limited degree. If anything happened to him. I was going to be responsible for it. Even though he and I talked about that because you know, I talked I was pretty clear that that would be my fault and what should I do what was best for us As a family, and he didn't think that, but I would have to live without my whole life. And I didn't think I could. So it did. During that time period, he had four great grandchildren born, yet four great grandson. And we had every interaction with them through a door or a window. And that was hard. Because when you're 87, you don't know how much longer you have on a day to day basis. So to not have interactions with family was hard. My siblings didn't all agree, even on anything in regards to COVID. There were -5- Transcribed by https://otter.ai three of us. No, sorry, four of us that were pro mass pro vaccine Pro, any precaution we could possibly take, and one who was actually in the medical field, which is why it was so weird to us, but one who was not as dramatic as the rest of us. So it caused conflict with a few people in my family with each other. Tanner Evans 11:03 especially like them wanting to the person that was more lacs with the stuff wanting to come talk to your dad and visit with him. Jenny Barlow 11:13 So we had a Father's Day, I think it was Father's Day, gathering in our backyard of my house, under a tent super spread out. And everyone was wearing masks except my one brother and his family. And then my other brother who had flown in, lost his mind and started this huge fight in our backyard. It was just like when they were little boys together. So it was interesting, though, in a family who have similar political beliefs and ideas, didn't agree on this. And it became so polarizing, even within our family, which is so weird. Tanner Evans 11:52 Which is, it's strange, because that's also in that's the last thing you need right in this time. But that's what happens, like, tensions are high. And everyone gets frustrated. Jenny Barlow 12:03 yeah, and I think it's fear. I think we were all afraid. And we all wanted to do what was best, and no one wanted to be responsible. But I did. I was concerned that if anything happened, it would be my fault. I was scared, just the process. Like if I did get sick, what would I do? It would be best if I didn't stay here in my home. So I'd go to a hotel, but then who would kind of take care of my dad, even though he's relatively self sufficient, I just didn't want him to be alone. So the fear was constant, like everything was heightened. And anytime someone coughed. Oh, yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Tanner Evans 12:45 Oh, I was just gonna say, especially when you were in public or any sort of closed area, like just being in the store and being on the scene with someone and when someone would cough? or something, it was like, you would look at them as if they had the plague? Jenny Barlow 12:59 Yes, because they might. Tanner Evans 13:00 Exactly. Jenny Barlow 13:02 I think, um, with my job, because we have to stay open, I was eligible for a vaccine starting in January of 2021. So I got my first vaccine, the first week of January in 2021. And I got my second one in February and then again in March, and my dad was eligible because of his age to get his in February. -6- Transcribed by https://otter.ai So he and I were both vaccinated. Really early on as soon as they became available, which made me feel a lot better. And I think after that, after the vaccine started, we kind of relaxed a little we stopped washing our groceries. Tanner Evans 13:39 Yeah, you stopped anytime someone came through the door, spraying them down and stuff. Yeah. Jenny Barlow 13:45 And many people who did come to our door, were super respectful of the fact that they were putting him in danger. Like most people who most people didn't even come in. And that was nice. Like neighbors would stop by and check in and even family would stay outside or offer to wear masks. And so I felt really good about saying yes, please wear a mask, but my dad didn't. He was over it. He was like if this is it, this is how I'm going out. That's fine, because I'm sick of this. Yeah. So he started using it before I did, which was fine, too. Tanner Evans 14:19 I don't know, that’s so interesting. I mean, just in my family, too, with all our older members. They always in my family like they were the ones that were the most relaxed because they just wanted to be with their favorite people and they were very much okay with the idea that you know that [death] was around the corner and they were like, I just want to spend time with my family. I remember there was a point where we were exposed and my grandma was just like, just come over, and I get it. We were kind of in your same situation. We're all very fearful for her because of that same reason, like if we give it to her and she ends up dying from it. That's gonna ride on my conscience forever. Jenny Barlow 15:02 Yeah, even if she didn't feel it, you would feel it for yourself. And I think, I think that's what people do. When a loved one dies anyway, no matter what causes you only think of the negative things, or the last negative interaction you have with them, and that hurts. So you've stay in that for a while. And I think, to them think I could have maybe prevented this and I didn't, would suck. And anyway, he was the same way. He's like, I don't have the rest of it. The rest of my life is this compared to everyone else's. So I would rather be with family and if that's what happens, it happens. Yeah. So but it was interesting. Everyone who came around the did love my dad was like, I'm not going to be the one to get him sick. Tanner Evans 15:48 Yeah. So what were some ways you did manage, you know, those feelings of fear and stuff during the beginning, Jenny Barlow 15:58 I think the best thing that we did, so in my family, there's, I have a sister that lives really close by and I see her and that her kids a lot. So I will consider that my nuclear family in a way because we're together a lot. So we've decided to be honest. And if if one person said I woke up with a bit of a sore throat, they had to be honest, even if that threw off everything that we were going to be doing the day, that date, you can't be angry, if someone gets sick, you can't be mad at them, they got sick. I'm so we just had to be honest. And I had a little nephew who was you know, relatively newborn. And we had to -7- Transcribed by https://otter.ai be honest about being around him too. So if I had a cough, even if I wanted to play with him, it was more responsible and more loving to be like, I'm gonna excuse myself from this activity, because I don't feel good about it. But most of the things that we did, were just outside, um, spread apart as much as we could, but still kind of hanging out. Um, we washed our hands a lot. Hands down. It's like one of those belts that people at like dragons used to have that has the change clickers you probably don't know. But it was like, a thing of tissues and sanitizer was always on hand somewhere Tanner Evans 17:16 on hand and like you would literally hand sanitize to the point where your hands are chafed and dry, Jenny Barlow 17:23 and they would break down your nails or whatever, you would hurt to crack. Yeah, I was okay. So we eventually did [relax], like become a little more relaxed on a lot of things. And I can say with 90% certainty, you know, a lot of people in my family had a little cold here and there. But none of us ever got sick. None of us have ever tested positive yet. Tanner Evans 17:46 Yet, so I mean, hopefully, hopefully now, it's on a downhill. But that is so interesting, because you're actually the first person I've come across that hasn't had at least one member test positive. Jenny Barlow Really? Jenny Barlow 18:03 none. So I have a niece in California, but I haven't seen her in a couple of years. So no one in my family. And I'm, I'm going extended family. You know, like to my nieces and nephews in my in laws. No one Jenny Barlow 18:21 got sick. A big deal. So now we're like unicorns, and we have to keep it that way. Tanner Evans 18:27 Yeah, you guys want to keep doing those precautions to not get it just to have that. I mean, quite Jenny Barlow 18:35 well. And I would say to my family, like we didn't, we didn't have those meetings with the with the newborn babies and the grandkids and whatever, for two years through windows and doors to screw it up. Now, you know, like, we sacrifice some of their childhood and our relationships with them. I'm not willing to lose that. Now. Since that we lost that time, then I don't want to lose it now. I still wear a mask. I'm at work. I'm one of the only people who does wear a mask at work. But I wear a mask at work. I wear a mask when I go to the grocery store, and I'm sure it's probably safer. But again, I don't want to be I didn't sacrifice everything I did to now ruin it. So I'm still super careful. Tanner Evans 19:20 -8- Transcribed by https://otter.ai That’s fair. I know. Um, on campus, we still wear masks here too, just because it’s kind of for that same reason. Just we, I mean, the likelihood of us getting shut down again is not high, but we just don't want to risk it because it's our education. Do you think that the pandemic brought you and your dad closer together? Or do you think that put a bit of a tenuous relationship on things? Jenny Barlow 19:49 Both. It's so interesting because I it's, I have been with my mom died almost 20 years ago and I have been with My dad since then, so that's a really long time. Wait 20? So yeah, yeah, almost 20 years ago, so, um, I and I moved back home to help care for her before she passed away. And then my dad asked that I stay. And it's been nice. And so I do think I've had a really close relationship with Him. And I think the pandemic forced us to be even closer, which was good. But there are times where I it's like, it's like, we're a married couple, which is so weird, but it is because I can't make decisions and choices without making sure that he is okay. And it's the same for him, I would think he has to consider how what he does impacts me. So I wouldn't give up. Even without the pandemic, I would not give up all the time, the one on one time I've had with him. And I do think I do think I worried a lot more during the pandemic, just if this was going to be his last year, or month or day, I wanted him to at least talk to family. So we had to teach him how to use FaceTime and his phone in a way that didn't completely isolate him. And that has been helpful. And a lot of people reached out to him that way to try to keep him included in their situations, even though that was hard for everybody. Tanner Evans 21:19 And how was going about that process of teaching him to use it because the way the world relies on technology now mean versus just the way it was three years ago was crazy. So how was that process? Jenny Barlow 21:37 It's still it's tricky. Um, we did get him a better phone. And we did get him a watch. So that at least he would know when people were trying to call him. We also got him a watch that would identify if he felt so it would notify me if he fell if I wasn't home. So that's a problem. Um, so he does try. He hangs up on people a lot. But then he knows at least they called so he'll try to call them back. And all of them know that he's not great at it. So they'll, they'll try several tries before they get him. But he's not he's not great at it. Tanner Evans 22:20 Yeah, that's fair. Do you think that this process made you better at being a caretaker? Or do you think you already had it nailed down before? Jenny Barlow 22:33 Oh, I don't think I ever will have it nailed down to where I should be with being a caretaker. I, fortunately, for me, personally, and unfortunately, for me I've had a lot of time to be a caretaker. So I mean, that's, that's a whole other situation that's not affected by the pandemic. I mean, I am a 50 year old person who's never been married. And he's lived with her parents for a long time, because they both had issues that needed to be, someone had to be here. And I was the only one at the time not married. Actually, they're all still married. I've made that sound weird. But, um, so I was the only one who didn't have a family of my own. So that made me the obvious person. But also, I don't know that I -9- Transcribed by https://otter.ai would have been in a different situation anyway, like, if I hadn't been here, I don't know that I would be married somewhere else out in the world. So I did have a unique situation to be with both of my parents, one on one in a more caring sort of situation versus when my parents were both healthy and younger. So I do think that it brought us closer. And I do think that I'm more hypersensitive to things now than I maybe would have been, but also, this has been my life for a while without the pandemic being a part of it. Tanner Evans 24:01 Um, let’s see what I have here. I guess we could go back to your occupation, and help her because that also was really interesting, because that it's just such an interesting situation and how a physical therapists office in a sense became almost like a hospital for people and seeing that when people would come at the beginning of the pandemic, did you see more distress and your clients? Jenny Barlow 24:41 That was a good question. Any kind of distress just like mental distress or just all sorts? Yeah. Well, I think so. Physical therapy offices depend a lot on surgical centers being open, because we help rehab people after surgeries. surgical centers closed I'm not sure maybe March, maybe March of 2020 I think maybe March. And so, because the surgical centers were closed, we didn't see a lot of patients because of the rehabbing after a surgery. But we still did see a few because there would be emergent situations that require surgeries. But we did see a lot of people just for strengthening because they tried to do a lot of stuff at home, but people didn't have the equipment. And another part of my job is to order equipment for our facilities, all six of them. And it was interesting that the things that we would use, like resistance bands, weight sets were sold out, because I think people tried to make their own home gyms, oh, well, then everything was difficult to get and. And then there were shortages of all sorts of things. But yoga mats, yoga mats went from, like $8 to like $38 Because so many people bought them themselves, then we couldn't get them. And then the supply, the demand was so high, the supply was low, so they could charge whatever they wanted, and people would pay for it. It's the same thing with hand sanitizer and tissues. People knew that they so people started buying their own stuff rather than letting well not letting I think everyone should have their own stuff, but I have difficulty getting stuff. So I would watch for Amazon deals at 3am for like hand sanitizer to buy for our facilities. Um, but we did see a lot of people that would come just for strengthening, um, they didn't know how to do things on their own. So they would come to get a home exercise plan, we did see a lot of wound checks, stitch removals. Just things we don't normally see, like, physical therapists don't typically take out stitches. So Tanner Evans 26:50 I was gonna say that's also very interesting doing stitch removals. 26:55 Yeah, if they couldn't get into their doctor, but it was time that stitches could come out, or some of them, you know, start coming out anyway. And you just trim them or whatever. And people were afraid to do that themselves, but couldn't get to the doctor. So they would come in. And it was kind of like a, it was weird, because normally physical therapy appointments are about an hour, two hours. And these would be like 3540 minutes just to kind of check in and, and it was nice, because the physical therapist could give people an affirmation as to Yes, you should just stay home and rest or No, you need to call your - 10 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai doctor because that's not how it should be. So someone was making a decision that was a medically accurate and educated decision without people just trying to guess and bothering doctors when they didn't need to. So that part was cool. Um, but it was slow. So you know that that was a little different. It was slower than normal. It took a while to. And it was only slow for literally four or five months, by the end of the year, we had picked up enough that we actually ended up opening two new clinics during that pandemic, during 20. The end of 2020, the beginning of 2021, we opened a new clinic in West Point and in Kaysville. So not only did we not close, not only did we not lay off anybody but we ended up growing by two clinics, which is like, I'm not sure how that happened. Tanner Evans 28:26 But it is very interesting, because in almost any other aspects of business, it was the opposite. Right? So in terms of the patient and physical therapist dynamic. Yeah. Would you say it changed with the patients coming in during COVID? Or do you think it kind of remained the same? Jenny Barlow 28:46 I think it mostly remained the same. I think many people don't see physical therapist is like a medical professional. And I understand that I didn't used to either. But um, it's kind of like physical therapy is lumped in with Chiropractic and Massage Therapy. But many physical therapists end up with a doctorate. Like they have a doctorate, which makes them eligible to do massage therapy and chiropractic services as part of physical therapy. Um, so I think people I don't know that we got more clients, like, I don't know that we got more clients that never would have seen us in the first place versus we just kept clients and then we would get referrals from existing people to see their spouse or their daughter or their son or their neighbor. Um, so I'm not really sure I do think you know, it would be interesting to do a survey of patients and ask if they feel more like they consider physical therapists as medical professionals, because I'm not sure I see him that way. yet. I work with them so I'm not sure I don't know I think A lot of people don't know how much physical therapy can help in so many different situations. But there's so many things they can do. And in our clinic, we have specialists in many different categories. Like we have a women's health and a pediatric specialist. And we have we have a vestibular rehab, so vertigo, people who are dizzy or have vertigo, and then we do a lot of orthopedic. So I'm not really sure if people's opinions may be changed for the about the profession. I just know that I saw them do a lot that help people on a daily basis that would maybe just be a sports injury. Yeah, like a sports injury or a concussion, we do concussions too. So someone could have had a concussion. And rather than go into the urgent care, they come to us. Tanner Evans 30:53 I feel that is a fair assumption to make that people's opinions maybe have changed, because I didn't know that actually. I knew that you had to get at least a bachelor's in kinesiology, but I didn’t know most physical therapists or all had to be have their PhD. Jenny Barlow 31:08 Yeah. And they don't have so it's I don't know. Yeah. And I think though the doctorate program isn't as long as in some other things, but I think that it's like a two and a half or three year program that gets their master's and doctorate so that all of the people I work with have a master's and I think all but maybe one have a doctorate right now, and one is working towards it. And that's, I think, nine, nine - 11 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai physical therapists in our six clinics. So that's a lot of people. But yet, I don't know that it. It's not. I mean, I don't want to disparage them getting a doctorate because I don't have a doctorate. But I don't think it's like a four year program after a master's. I think it's they get a masters and a doctorate within three years. Tanner Evans 31:54 Yeah. But I mean, even having that title though, that prestige that comes with it. People seem to trust someone more. Jenny Barlow 32:03 Great. Yeah. And why not? I would if I had to choose between people that I didn't know anything about, but one of them had a doctorate and one of them didn't I probably choose the doctorate. Tanner Evans 32:13 Yeah, me too. And going into that, and just going into a physical therapist, it's very reassuring knowing that they have a doctorate, right? I mean, even if it's something as small as taking out stitches. Yeah. I mean, you would rather have someone with a doctorate do that then someone who didn’t. Jenny Barlow 32:29 Right. Right. And I think, um, another thing that we saw a lot, it would be friends or friends of friends of friends. So like, if a friend of mine had a child that got hurt, or my friend got hurt while running on the treadmill, my physical therapy office would see them. So they would kind of like rely on referrals of referrals from referrals. Tanner Evans 32:51 So in more communal sense. Jenny Barlow 32:58 Yeah, and I think that's a really good word can you know, because I think one thing that I loved about physical therapy, so as you know, I used to be a teacher. And I went to physical therapy, because I broke my leg during school. So I went there for rehab. And I love the communal atmosphere, where I worked with other patients and other clinicians as part of my team. And it wasn't an official team. But I felt like I saw the same people on the same days doing the same things. And that's what I loved. I knew that leaving teaching would break my heart because I loved teaching. Thank you, Tamra. Oh, well, it was easy. For so many reasons. I loved it. But also one of the things I knew during the pandemic is I could not have taught during the pandemic, because people lost their minds. It became, but not, Tanner Evans 33:50 yeah, that would be one of those things that we very, very difficult with school going online. Yes. It's like you almost lose all sense of authority. Jenny Barlow 33:58 not authority. So you lose the community a little bit. - 12 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai Tanner Evans 34:02 Yes. In the oh, 100% the community. Whereas, like trying to teach online, do the Zoom lessons where half the kids don't have their screens on you don't get to see their faces? Yeah, that'd be hard. Jenny Barlow 34:15 It would be really hard. And I don't, I don't think it was the best for everybody. But I don't think I have a solution to how I could have made it better. I also think I spent a lot of time just in disbelief that this whole situation happened. I don't know how in a modern society like ours. This happened. How, how were how did we communicate? Everyone's sick? How did that happen so quickly, and when we can heal so many things. I don't know how that happened. And then, just as things kept going, I thought it's so surreal to go into a grocery store where six months ago if someone was wearing a mask over their face, I would think we were being robbed. But now when they're not I'm like What is wrong with you, sir? Tanner Evans 34:57 Yeah. Also in that, in that sense, just how societal norms have changed as well. Like, yes, even after COVID is long over, well it won’t just be over. But you know, the pandemic, at least, I feel like, for me, I'm going to be able to wear a mask way more comfortably in public, even if I just have the flu or cold. And like you said, if you saw someone wearing a mask before, it was very much like we're getting robbed, they have the plague. Jenny Barlow 35:39 Yeah, well, and I, I hope that we, because I think country, Asian countries have done that for so long. Because it's part of their communal practice that, if they're unwell, they protect the community around them by wearing a mask. I don't know how this has become such an angry issue. And people yell if you are wearing a mask, and people yell, if you're not just, you know, you see those online, you see people freaking out all over the place, we only had a few people, a few patients who got really angry one way or the other. And we had both people who were upset, we were wearing masks and people upset. We were not. Um, but now, I just don't care. And I'm not going to try to force anybody else to do anything. I just want everyone to do what they think is best. I just wish people cared about other people a little bit more. But I'm interested. Tanner Evans 36:30 And that's a fair thing to think you know what I mean? I was because… my hope coming out of COVID was that, in a sense, we would have a stronger community because it seems very individualistic, right? Like, we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, we have all these individualistic ideologies, whereas I don't think having some sort of awareness about your community would be a bad thing. Jenny Barlow 36:55 Right. And I don't know where we lost track. Um, like, if you think about the very beginning and how communities would go outside, I think it happened in America, I know, it happened in the UK a lot more where like, at six o'clock, every night, people would go outside and cheer for health care workers or people would post online about how they are so grateful for teachers. So in the beginning, people were very gracious and willing to say, thank you to so many services that had been, like kind of neglected in - 13 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai some ways or over, people saw over them in a in a almost demeaning kind of way. But then at some point, it switched. And then the medical professionals became villains, and the teachers became villains. And I don't know how that happened. But they got angry. And I don't know how people got so angry at the people. They were applauding a couple, like few months ago. Now you're angry at them? 37:56 I mean, I'm not trying to defend them because I think that's also very much wrong to do that. Right. But it's probably just everyone's frustration, like, not necessarily with them, but just with the pandemic. And so, that's their outlet. You know, Jenny Barlow 38:12 I think that's a good point. Yes. And so people get people are scared and they react negatively when you're scared. Yes. And that does take a toll. After two years. It took a toll on me. But I was lucky in so many aspects. And so if you weren't lucky, and you did lose your job, or you lost your livelihood, or had to or lost your home, or lost your life. Yeah. Yeah. lost loved one. I understand that might make you more angry. So I guess it sounds kind of um, I don't know. Maybe that was a selfish way to think. But I wish we could go back to being a little more communal. Which I thought was the best word. Tanner Evans38:53 Me too. I and I don't think it's selfish at all. Because is it seems when we do have those communal ideologies, it seems we can get through it better. When the end is near. when we all group together and try to work to fix the problem, it’ll go by a lot smoother. Well, I think that's all I have for you. Thank you so much for doing this. Jenny Barlow 39:19 It was my pleasure. You are a good kid. - 14 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai - 15 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai