Jan Tyler Oral History Interview (2)

Second oral history interview of Jan Tyler by Marilyn Warenski about status of women in Mormon culture.

UTAH INTERVIEWEE: INTERVIEWER: DATE: SUBJECT: TRANSCRIBER: DATE: MW: JT: STATE HISTORICAL SOCIETY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Tyler Marilyn Warenski September 22, 1980 Jan Women in Christine June 24, the Mormon Gustin 1988 Culture, Second interview This is an interview with Jan Tyler on the subject of Women in the Mormon Culture. We are at my house on 4135 Matthew The date is Setember 22, 1980. Way, Salt Lake City; Utah. This is the second interview I have had with Jan Tyler on this subject, the first one took place I think in 1976 (approximately October 29, 1975). Lots of things have happened since that date and we wanted to get an up date with Jan on her attitudes on her experiences. Jan, let's begin by having you describe first of all your activities in the International Womens Year meeting in the year 1977. That was quite an event in Utah. Yes it was Actually for me the activity started much earlier then 1977 when we held the event at the Salt I was invited by Virginia Allan who was then the Palace under Secretary of the Department of State to set in on a meeting that was being held with various women from all the different governmental agencies in Washington D.C. They were preparing a proposal that was to go to President Nixon encouraging the United States to become involved in International Women's Year and this idea was established from the United Nations That was my first exposure to it and then a little later I was invited back a second time to the Department of State and then I went to New York to attend a preliminary meeting at the United Nations held in conjunction with the American Association of the University of Maryland. There I attended, in 1975, the meeting in Mexico City which was actually the International Women's Year meeting. It was at that meeting at Mexico City there were about thirty-nine of us from Utah, both Mormon and non-Mormon who went down and we were the third largest state represented from the United States there. Out numbered by only Wisconsin and then California and then Utah. At Mexico City the decision was made to extend the year of the women to the decade of the women from 1975 to 1985. In the United States it was decided that in each state we would have a mini meeting with just the people within the states and discuss the concerns of the women within that state. Then there would be a national meeting which ended up in Houston in November of 1977. Actually my involvement started a couple of years earlier. I think basically because of that extended involvement when it came time for the group that was appointed out of Washington D.C to a organized. officers coordinating committee for the state and representative from Washington D.C. to get us At that very first meeting we elected our the be they sent and at that point I was elected the chair of the cordinating committee for Utah. During that period of time I went through a job transition. I had applied to work for the State Department of Social Services and was able to negotiate after I resigned from BYU to only work half time. until after June was over with so I could spend half time in the IWY office and then working half time for the state so there wouldn't be any confusion about where my time was It was probably one of the most incredible being spent. experiences in my life because it was the largest state IWY We had just under fourteen thousand meeting in the Nation. and the next largest was ten thousand. We also had the smallest amount of money to work with because money was a lot according to population and we were a low population state. We had twenty-five thousand dollars and we had to do some fund raising in addition We actually had four months to pull the whole thing together from, I think February was our first meeting when we ellected our offices. Then we had the meeting in June. The thing that was most astounding to me was opening that meeting in the Salt Palace and looking out on that sea of fourteen thousand faces and knowing the majority of them were hostile towards any of us who were working on the committee that pulled this thing together and also hostile because there had been a great deal of propaganda prior to it that this was some communist plot and it had to be because it was connected to the UN, the whole thing was being orchestrated and controlled from out of state and those of us on the coordinating committee were just being pupets being manipulated out negative thing and it It was just a Washington D.C. The other thing freightening. was twice I had received phone calls threatening my life and so I just didn't know what was going to happen when I stood up there to start that meeting. At one point during the meeting Ester Landa who was functioning as our Parliment, well, actually she conducted the business At the end of the first day we had gone quite meeting. late into the evening and we kept on wanting to adjourned and no one would allow the adjourment until Barbara Smith the General Relief Society President stood up and said, Let's go home and adjourn." "Look, we're all tired. Then the crowd followed of was suit. Esther and I a crowd of where to were and we were escorted to our cars. We couldn't figure out what was What we found out was they were affraid we were happening. to going stay and reopen the meeting and then pass our resolutions and so forth that would be contrary to the bulk of the people that were in attendance. That was an incredible experience. in stood the They parking lot until both of us were gone with our cars and then they women just came up to the Both podium -2- disbursed. It was difficult because I felt like my role to be open to all sides and there were expectations from the Mormon community because I was very strongly identified as a Mormon and I did not fulfill those expectations because I felt like I had to hear not just was but all sides, and then I think there were expectations from the feminist community because they were also very well aware of my conditions on a number of issues but like wise I felt like I couldn't give them any more (?) treatment then I gave the Mormon's or any other group like side their people MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: who are interested in pro-choice and so forth. So found myself kind of caught in the middle of all these different groups it was really a difficult thing. I could see that it would be You would have felt quite isolated I I was. know Jolyn Freed interviewed many of the women who were involved in International Women's Year committee, did she interview you on the subject? Yes. There are several preciptions of what happened why the crowd assembled, how do you see that. Perhaps you've already gone through this with Jolyn? I do think certainly the majority of the people that were there simply because they were encouraged to come through the hierarchy system of the LOS church and there is no doubt in my mind. I guess that is pretty well documented by now? It was in the press, I think. Yes Barbara Smith admitted that maybe that was not the wisest way to go. I also think they learned a lot from that experience which they have used to their advantage in other issues particularly the Era issue. Specifically you mean the organizational system? Right realizing really what they had at their finger tips. The cause of action, so to speak. I might add that Joann Freed and Lareal Miller were Yes. really the key people in keeping things organized and coordinated. They did just a phonominal job and much of what happened couldn't have happened without them. The after math of the IWY is an interesting thing for us to discuss here for few minutes. over the I think many women in Utah that prevailed and also the out come. Would you like to describe your feelings and also describe what happened after that in terms of mending of the feelings and so on. Basically everything was voted down at that meeting, all resolutions and so forth that were submitted. In the workshop people who had really put a lot of energy into having good solid information and data available, they weren't listened to, there were some that tended to take over the workshop, it was tremendously discouraging. It was discouraging to me as suposedly as a member of the were JT: I discouraged a to (?) -3- atmosphere dominate group there. What I consider such anti Christian activity the suspension, the hatred, name calling, and I felt there was very little assumptions that were made. that was going on that I could identify with even though I that community. was a member of It was personally distressing to me to see all that unleashed and just see the, I think it was really a que to underline here a tremendous amount of energy that's gone to avoiding dealing with the issues of the day. These are issues that are as MW: JT: MW: JT: old as the times. I understand Barb Smith and the leaders of the Relief Society were remorseful about the out come or at least the atmosphere that was created. Apparently you had some after too? meetings that, Yes, they invited our coordinating meeting up to the Relief Society building and had a luncheon for us that was not as helpful or mending that it could have been because they weren't willing to talk. They expected the members of the committee to say how they felt about things and talk about who upset they were and then when these individuals had been so open and they had turned to the members of the Relief Society Board and said what do you feel about this. They said they were there to listen not to discuss what they felt People felt a little bit used and like they had been open and honest and than just left hanging. At that It was so close to what had meeting I was so pained happened and then I was so pained at the dynamics that I saw happening that when it came time for me to speak, I couldn't. I was just weaping I could not even talk during that whole thing. Then later there was another meeting held at somebodys home There were a fewer number of us and I was able to talk As I recall I think Norma Matheson, Beth Charm, and then myself and the rest of the women were from the Relief Society. At one point Beth was talking about how she had done her study on the (?) and how similar all of this had been to which she had seen. She It was began to weap because she too was raised a Mormon. so alien to any of her expectations and previous At that point I was very pained although I experiences. was able to control my emotions to a state that I could The thing that was more significant express my feelings. to me on the way home after, Lana was also at this meeting, on the way home I told her, "You know, I look at you and I look at these women who are suppose to be my leaders who are to be an example to me of womenhood. There is no comparison in my mind and I'm greatful that we in Salt Lake City have someone like you we can look up to because those women who are suppose to be our leaders they just don't fill the bill for it." Esther Lana has been a National leader in the Jewish Women. Plus she's been very active in IYW and the outgrowth of that she's ended up on the President's Advisory Council. She said, "I don't understand what women of your age are -4- in really tough spot in terms of being understanding about the things you understand any of preparation for the future which is what and any can be that transition." In a moment of dispear you really I said "I guess I'll probably end up going to a synagogue," and she said, "You will always be welcomed Which was such a contrast to the rejection and there." alienation I felt in just the open loving that she going to kind MW: do, of kind your demonstrated. Since then how have may be? fell that I'm a you resolved or not resolved as the case JT: probably particularly the last two years I really gone through a number of changes in my mind and my spirit and soul and emotionally as it relates to the It's happened to me at a number of levels. Church One thing I realized that I had expectations of the Church that weren't being fulfilled, but I was raised I was taught to have these expectations. So one day I just sat down and I "What are my expectations?" Then very consciously said, after I said each expectation, "Is the Church capable of meeting those expectations or aren't they," as a whole I I have determined MW: JT: that expectations. What were some Fundamentally, eternal spirit in this the Church could not meet those of those? I think having an understanding of of women and her condition and our the condition mortal existence. Some basic thinqs that are to me like separation of church and state which I That thought was part of the church and it isn't today. for truth and the and it takes to hunger honesty integrity search and finding that really the outward image was more important than what the truth maybe and that was a important MW: Those are just basic kinds of things. I disappointment could go on and on and on. Then I started saying, "Okay, if the Church can't meet these expectations then how am I going to get them met because as far as I'm concerned their basic to my existence." Finally I determined that I had to take responsibility for that. I could not turn that over to an institution, be it a church, political system, or educational system or whatever. When I was finally struck with that I was a bit angry with myself it's taken me this long to take that kind of responsibility for myself, but once I got over the anger I began to meet those needs whether they be spiritual or intellectual or social. As I where the church meet them I couldn't could said, expect them too. I found that once I came to that I quit being angry with the Church because I didn't have unrealistic I quite blaming them and started taking expectations. Than a I think a crucial thing was a responsibility. meeting Sonja Johnson and I had had with Neal A. Maxwell and Gordon B. Hinkley. Before you get to that, perhaps you want to talk about what I think I know what your happened in the preparation. going to talk about. -5- JT: MW: JT: basically Sonja had been this was after her was when she process going It had an been indicated her that to appeal through Gordon B. Hinkley would be interested in meeting with her We determined that she should so we did arrange a meeting. not go alone and I ended up going with her. Before we went we identified the specific questions we wanted to ask because we didn't want it to be a meeting where we were We wanted to always in the posture of responding to them. deal with the issues that we wanted to deal with. As it turned out, I said very little. It was really more an exchange between Sonja and Gordon B. Hinkley with an educational interjection by Neal A. Maxwell. Occassionally I said something but the exchange was so intense that I really sat back and watched it and because I was being more of an observant then a participant. I could pay attention to the non verbal language that was going on as well as the verbal things that were being said. It was a real crisis for me because for the first time again I realized these were men and they were inperfect, they weren't completely honest which was shocking to me, they were evasive, they denied things we knew to be fact, and we confronted them with that fact. When I walked out of there I thought, "This is one of the twelve apostles, this is one that is I suppose to be a representative of Christ on the earth." had the very same feeling I had when, as a child, I found out there wasn't a Santa Claus. I felt I had been had been That I had been taught with. betrayed played that wasn't true It shook me to the very something just inner core. Once I got over the shock of that then I realized I had to go on. I had to quite creating in the cultural creation of false gods and participating realizing how much I had at a very deep level, had done that myself and realizing I could not continue doing this any longer and maintain my integrity and being in touch with me. So that was the second thing. Consequently I find myself emotionally removed from everything that had conditioned me up to this point that I maybe kidding myself, but so far my feeling is that I can no longer be hurt as deeply as I have been and that I have to take responsibility for seeing that no longer happens. Why does the IWY and this experience you described in meeting with Gordon B. Hinkley and others were very I guess it's like a disillusioning experiences for you. series of bumps on the head, some hard blows. You suggest that you did go through a period of turmoil and all conflict and it sounds like it's resolved in a healthy way. I am at a much better place then I have ever been. I like myself better, I like taking responsibility for nurturing I like being myself spiritually and in every other way. able to deal with people no matter what their position is in the church or out of the church for themselves without imposing anything that makes them more supreme then a mere Just excommunication but during the -6- here and MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: JT: human being like myself. Who like myself is struggling to live life as best as I know how. Position in the church than no longer has say meaning for you as it had before? No Where does this leave you now as far as your relationshp with the Church is concerned? I deal with the Church on my own terms not on theirs. Do you still participate? teaching a special course on the history of Society and that is the only thing that I'm I'm not a visiting teacher or anything else. doing That sounds like quite a job. It's exciting, it's really an adventure. The women love having all this uncovered to them of the history and it's implications for today. Would you care to comment on the Sonja Johnson case? I was one of several, not a large number, but several who were not only in Virginia but here in Utah who were intimately involved with her on a personal friendship basis We went through this painful ordeal at very close as well as having the advantage of being in a range negative environment which forced us to look at it at it from a distance, also. To this day I voted that she was handled very unjustly. That it was a fearing action of a I think comparing the way I have been particular bishop dealt with by my bishop and the experiences that she had I come to believe that really it's a matter of maturity and this man had not reached a very high level of maturity and I mean on a spiritual level as well as a knowlege level, just a human level. Rejecting the goals of that soul, I think Sonja does have a lot of goals as a person. One I think "impurity" or something they were very fearful of. it's inexcusable and I do believe that at some point they are I think the only going to have to answer for that. that is to be held accountable for is thing Sonja going going to be how she deals with them, but she is not going to be held accountable for being unjustily excommunicated Presently women MW: JT: MW: JT: in I am Relief in I don't think before God my mind and I think in hers. is excommunicated. Do you seem to feel this process was indeed initiated by the bishop and has that been determined? No, there was a lot of speculation and to this day I can't. You have no insight? No. There were people in better positions than I to have the inside line still. I guess in my heart I have to be honest and say I believe there were some exchanges between Salt Lake and here. It's interesting Kimball then in back-up position do you think it was because it's customary for the readers I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand and maybe there is a part of me that wants to protect President On the one hand I don't honestly Kimball, I don't know. she MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: .•. JT: -7- MW: JT: MW: JT: believe he knows anything about the case maybe other then what he's read and I think he was protected from them. I still harbor in a part of me the feeling that I think Sonja had and that was if someone could have spoken face to face with the man I don't things would have gone the way they On the other hand there is a part of that I guess is did very angry with him and the leaders that they did not care enough about the individual which is what we profess so much in all of our teachings and everything but here is one of these individuals and they didn't care enough about her to deal with her as a person as an individual. I have very mixed feelings about that. Did you see her case as different from other Of course, she had a lot of publicity in excommunications? which did stand out from others. During the course of things I recieved a lot of correspondence with women and men who were struggling with issues with the Church and were leaving the Church and shared with me some of their own experiences, and I think other then the extraordinary things that surrounded Sonja's situation basically there wasn't too much difference in how she was dealt with. Not a lot of fairness in the trial It's not intended I guess to be a fair and process. just process which is so contradictory and such a convolution to the fundamental things both doctrinally and as a nation we say we believe in. Honestly I can't believe that the Lord would have dealt with it that way, I just can't. How has the Sonja Johnson case affected the women in the Church from your point of view? I found that it's been very polarizing and Sonja has been used as a scap goat or as the object to which individuals and women, because I've heard a lot of women talk have attached their free floating fears and anger around womens issues and suddenly this person imerged and it was just like a magnet. All these things were thrown to her, attributed to her judgements and assumptions that were made about her. I could really identify with that because on a much smaller scale I've experienced that myself and it was so painful to watch that. When I listen to women with such a knowing attitude make judgements about Sonja when in fact they knew somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody, it was third and fourth and fifth hand any of the information I just want to scream, "Stop and they were dealing with. look at yourself, do you realize what your doing by being destructive to her your destroying a part of yourself." I don't mean they have to agree with her because and I Sonja don't agree on some approaches and philosophically in some areas we don't even agree. I think the major thing for me that emerged and had kind of become my philosophical guide or something is it's not important, and I said this during IYW and it's kind of stayed with me, it's not important what your for or against, the thing that is most important is how we treat each other in the process of dealing with -8- disagreements. into, "Okay, maybe guess that's what I keep tunning don't agree with Sonja, maybe you think she deserves had what was coming and that she deserves and what came to her, but in the process of dealing with that what is it that we're doing with each other We who profess with so much compacity sometimes this sence we are eternal beings and we're all brothers and sisters and we come from the same heavenly parents. If you that have kind of a how can we turn really philosophy, around and treat each other in the kinds of ways that we So somewhere, something is missing. do One of my positions have been that propaganda in the final analysis failed a people whether it's political or religious. If in fact in the "teachings" that have been going on, if that kind of teaching has been merely propaganda then that's why we're seeing the kinds of destructive interaction that we're seeing True education in the truest sence of the definition of the word to educate or to lead through. If a person is truly educated, then there is an incorporation into your attitude then your behavior the things you profess to believe. They are not violated no matter what the crisis of circumstances are. I think that, though I be the that would look at whats happening may only person in the Church not just around the women's issues, but I am concerned, I am alarmed at the political issues extent to which there is evidence that there his probably than far more propaganda taking place then true teaching. I think that is very disstressing. Out of this another thing that I have notice is now that I've started taking responsibility for fulfilling my own needs no matter what level they emerge, one of my curiosities and interest has been aside from a religious context whether it's eastern religion or western religion has just been a study of the The kind of letting go that spiritial nature of women. I've gone through in terms of the things that detrimentally kept me bound to the Church has freed me to do a lot of I am just over exploring that I found very exciting. whelmed as I begin to read about the struggle that other women from other face are going at to finally say, listen my spiritual nature is important to me as a person as a women and I am no longer going to let that be defined by an institution or group. Their beginning to do this writing and much of what their saying are things that I've only sad to myself and then you find these unknown friends. That's been tremendously exciting to recognize that even though the LDS church professes to have a belief in a Heavenly Mother, there are women that are searching for the female aspect of Diety and discovering that that has been erased and probably most violently it was erased with the advent of Christianity which is an incredible irony. Then you look at it closer from the LDS prospective and LDS do not find to be christian though they claim to follow the teachings of Christ. They also claim to have a belief in our I you she -9- aspect of diety and yet they ignore interesting fundamental paradoxs and they haven't even begun to come to terms with. the woman are some do agree that the whole contortion that the that so there issues that Sonja and I Church has gone through over the black issue are absolutely nothing compared to what they will yet have to face as it relates to women particulary as they attempt in their movement to world wide church because women of other cultures to bare a different kind of prospective then even the American middle-class women or whose attitudes prevail in the church today. It's going to be In the meantime my feeling is I have interesting to watch to progess, I can't stand back and say, though I wish them well in what it is that their trying to do, I cannot let that hold me back. Sometimes it is lonely, but I still feel the drive to plung ahead and if the time is near that I am exploring or things that I have to explore by myself living this long has taught me that at some point those issues will be dealt with, if not sooner than later. I feel nothing but excitment in this kind of exploration whether it's a real discovery of the spiritual nature of women or the search for any truth that I happen to come become a really will bring across. MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: JT: What you doing in your professional life now? your goals and prospects for employment? Hopefully this term I will be finishing up my Ph.D University of Utah. Your taking that degree in ? are What at are the .. Administration Education. I specialized in Educational Law and International Education and in all of my courses, I have done research as it relates to women. When we study a educational system in say Japan then I would write my major paper for that course on the education of women in Japan that kind of thing. Everything I've done, I've done it with an eye to whats happening to women. Right now I'm involved in research which will be my disseration in the whole area of sexual harrassment which is a new area of the law as it relates to women and its been very very trying. As to what I hope to do I have also these last two years as I have reexamined my life not only in the religious area but in terms of who I am. I smell in the corridors of high education a bit of debt. There is a lot of life that has taken place and I don't see it as a particularly friendly In fact, the day I finished taking my place for women. orals I came home at four-thirty in the afternoon, turned on the news and the announcement that was coming over National News at that point was a release of a study that had been done on women in education nation wide. Utah is fifetith in the nation for women in administration in higher education. It heard something like that. Here I am, that is what I'm getting my Ph. D. in. In Utah the fiftieth in the nation. I thought I can't believe this. -10- MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: local people will be so embarrased by it because they'll turn it around. They don't seem to be terribly embarrassed, in fact, it It did brought no comments from higher education at all. comment from some administrators but (?) bring higher education it was like water off of that, no big deal. Have you considered leaving Utah? The only thing at this point that's kept me here has Yes been finishing my Ph. D. because I knew if I left before I was through with my dissertation I probably wouldn't get it done Being the task oriented person that I am, I'd just had to see it through it's final stages. Very definitely, unless there is some miraculous change I just don't see opportunities for women either in high administrative The positions outside of education or inside education. attitude is that women do not have the prevailing right to administrate and to be managers. an with influx Possibly of the industrial community and the energy development people who come in to do that that will not be of this culture that might pressure some kind of change but that will be a while in coming and in the meantime I have to live my life. With all of the pain and alienation that you have experienced because of womens issues in Utah, you are still able to stay here you would be able to stay here were there The a JT: good opportunity? think so. There was a time I didn't think so and I know there are some people that don't believe that I will ever be able to make any kind of contribution because some of the negative attitudes towards me, both within the feminist There was a community as well as the population at large. I MW: time I bought into that but You don't feel alienated in JT: MW: No. You JT: I don't the any more. community at the time? feel you went through it at a period of time? I think, you've probably had this Yes, very definitely. experience with your book, the thing I found being an individual who has been willing to take the unusual steps the unpopular steps, even though there are people who are supportive of what your doing they are still freightened by you and in order to deal with their fears they've got to kind of help create a myth that disposses of you. I have felt that happening and it occurs in surprising places. The thing I have learned to do is say well, the people that are really my friends don't feel the need to be that destructive towards me so consequently there have been some relationships that I have let go of and found that they were more destructive then constructive and contributing. Which again has freed me up to discover people that I wouldn't have discovered. I think the friendships and that I have relationships today are much more meaningful were for friends because superficial of reasons. the ties that we We don't waist -11- have each and its not others lives we don't waist they are manipulative. en MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: JT: each others time when we do have exchanges and very open and not conniving or tense have to waist your energies on those types? much more rewarding and that's been a wonderful They me for to find the deapth of human community you discovery These cut across religious lines and can with individuals. lines. political At this point I noticed your friendship is not confined to Mormonism nor are they confined to women in the womens movement. That's right. In fact, it seems the diverse which is what you hope for. I find that at least from my prospective for me its a Yes much healthier sort of thing. It is more me because I'm not I'm kind of a loner; very much an individualist and so I need to feel to have relationships with people who can allow me to be that instead of setting gringent expectations about how I am a part of this group and a part of that group and that I behave like this group wants or that group wants because I can't I just don't perform. I've become to terms that and so the people that I'm friends with need to be able to come to terms with that, You don't are too What do you anticipate in the way of change for the Mormon church? You mentioned that the women issues was in the church are more profound then the black issue because it covers a bigger number of people. Afer IWY and the intense anti ERA campaign, Sonja Johnson case and the publicity it brought, what affect do you think that will have on the Church and its stand on women? I think Sonja Johnson or few people would give her credit for this the attention that she brought to the issues have already created some changes. You mentioned that it had polarized the group? There has been some polarization but I also think there has been a situation where there had to be a reexamination of what all this business is about. Like I say, it's like I was told one of the general authorites was confronted with how badly a situation was handled that received a lot of publicity in the press and his comment was, "We will repent in private." So in other words he wasn't going to come out and apologize in the world and all of that. The were been have implications they might sorry and they would work it out behind their meeting doors. It might have been just there had been apprehension on their part? Yes, so I suspect that whatever is going on we're never going to know about it publicly because it will be carried on in meetings quietly and they will be very subtle in their changes and so forth. In terms of what is going to be happening in the future. There must be a coming to grips with the youth the young women in the church because -12- the history of the church their faster then the young men, I'm talking That has about the adolescent from twelve to eighteen. in the church before. There are two major never accured One they loose dips that I understand that takes place. that adolescent and then they loose period young men during their them return from of after they fifty percent Those have been typical, they may not like it but mission For the first time the line for it's been an expectation. that of the young men and if below has women dropped young that isn't a clear signal that these young women who are very much in touch with themselve, they may not understand thereselves; they may not have wisdom that comes with experience; but at a very primary level they sence something is not creating a healthy climate and their Those that are withdrawing and their leaving in droves. not act out by getting pregnant before their married or by getting involved in drugs running away from home and those In addition to young women leaving or kinds of things acting out then we also get the direct hostility towards has never been fully dealt with and I'm talking women which about child and spouse abuse and insest as well as rap and so forth, sexual harrassment is far more rapid than it's Those are recognized, even within church organizations. but be have been can that ignored so signs ignored only much longer and at some point someone has to care enough to I don't think it's going to be come to terms with it. We are dealing with individuals that are of a easy. another century mentally and socially and we've got young people and certainly people our ages that have a sence of the future and have a sence of the global urgency of that future and could really make a contribution but my attitude has been, I use to be kind of a missionary in terms of things as they relate to women but I cease being that in every way because my attitude now is I do have some information and experience that I'm willing to share and if people want to use it in a helpful kind of way then fine. If they don't fine, but I'm going to put it out there like It's People can do what they want with it. your book. I fulfilled my responsibility by your responsibility. One of the things I see putting the information out. myself doing after I'm through with this required writing connected with this degree and that is I will be doing a lot of writing. I've got five partial manuscripts that I feel pressed to finish. MW: That would be good thing for you to do? I've gone through the JT: I feel like I'm ready now. experiencing and I've gone through the emotional, intellicutal, and spiritual wrestling and now I'm ready to This past year I deal with it some and writing things (?). have been very disciplined about writing poetry and have done thirty pieces that I feel pretty good about. I've seen a lot of progress in development in my own writing but for the first loosing young time in women -13- write about issues, too. I'd like to make some education and a number of other institutions I intend to do a lot of writing the same way and so forth. in the very near future What I'd really like to do if I could afford it is get a cabin some place and become a I will be working to support hermit no phone (Laughter). the things I want to be doing not working to make a contribution for (?) or whatever that would be (?). I guess it's an idealistic notion that many of us have at and we realize it's quite a sacrifice to make a one time and In closing is there change society would be hard. want to add suming up the past few years, your anything you I want to comments MW: JT: MW: JT: MW: JT: on experiences? I think living in Utah I don't understand potentially what I have gained from these experiences will mean but I feel like I'm on a path; my path and I've gotten side tracked a little but I'm back on my own path and these experiences will be brought to bare upon the things that I am going to be doing in the future. To the extent that I will drawing from these experiences I don't know which way it will happen but I suspect that these experiences will be The something I will refer back to for future strength. times have been difficult and trying but I feel like I come out on my feet and I like that feeling. It's a very positive attitude., (?) Kind of like a cat. When you throw them, they waggle their feet twist and turn in the air. They may It was a pleasure to have a second chance to talk with you on this subject of status of women, not just in the Mormon culture but in society in general. This will be a valuable addition to the Historical Society I'm sure. Thank you. Thank you very much. -14-