Alison Thorne Oral History Interview

Oral history interview of Alison Thorne by Marilyn Warenski about status of women in Mormon culture.

I 1914, Alison Cornish Thorne, born May 9, crossed the plains -v.d th the LDS. of Mormon parents, all with forebears who I grew up "in the mission field" namely, Oregon, where my father was a professor at Oregon state College, and after 1932, at University of Oregon. After two years a t Oregon state t I went to the BYU, vlhere I in 1934. as va Led ct.or-Lan i graduated, Did graduate work in economics at Iowa State University and U. of Chicago, taking Married imx Wynne Thorne in 1937. did M.S. and Ph.D. at Iowa State University. Ph.D. thesis in absentia while he was at Texas A and M, took :my degree at Iowa State in Dec. 1938. -- , Logan in fall of 1939. All five of our children were born in Logan. Lived away one year, 19.52-13, when Wynne was with Tennessee Valley Authority. Taught the children of the Branch in Knoxville, in Sunday school and Primary which follow'ed immediately after, \\Je moved to 1964 I Wynne active in the LOS church, having taught Xmi adult 5S in the 5th ward; taught Relief Society lessons, esp. homemaking ones during the \VW II years; also social science lessons after that. Have taught SS classes for high school age youngsters. mn the First ward I taught an adult Until about classes with was class, and used to involve the class in current community problems, such as the need for mosquito abatement, school bond elections, and poverty programs. SS t'\Then I became involved in work for the state, and also began teaching a class at Utah State University, I gave up church work, and have attended less and less. OccaSionally I go to Sunday school. The strong Mormon women in my background Great great grandmother, Louisa Barnes Pra.tt. 'fMormondom's First \rloman Missionary". Her journals have been 'edited and appear under this name; w'ere used as lesson material for D.D.P. She and her husband were missionaries in Tahiti. My maternal grandmother, May Hunt Larson. See m,v letter about her. published in Kept a journal Dialogue, {inter 1969. It of happenings in Snowflake. a paragraph contains I have the Relief Society quilt which the Sisters gave her, and it has their on it; each sister had done a block. My mother has written up a brief sltetch about each of the sisters names • . A cousin, pauline Udall Smith, also a product of Snowflake, Arizona. I helped her write "Ca,ptain Hunt of the Mormon Battalion" , published as a book in 1958 by the Nicholas G •.Morgan, Sr. Foundation. Jefferson Hunt was her great grandfather, and my great great grandfather. My mother, Louise Larson Cornish. Wrote the story of her growing up years in Snowflake. A section of this was U published in Diagigue, voL, 6, no. 2. Summer 1971. Called ffSnowflake Girl. Also, in last Christmas edition of Exponent n, she published "Arizona Outing. 1912.n She served oi ty as PTA preSident when her children were Oregon, and alw'ays served get park polls during elections, because She has written a weekly' letter She taught the literary lessons a in Corvallis t she was a Democrat and Democrats to her children in Relief in school; worked to as a judge at the scarce. left home. since they for years and years. ever Society were I Alison Comish Thorne, born May 9, crossed the plains with the LDS. 1914, parents, all with forebears of Mormon I grew up "in the mission fieldlt namely, at Oregon state College, and after 1932, at at Oregon state, I went to the BYU, where I -- who Oregon, where my father was a professor University of Oregon. After two years graduated, as valedictorian, in 1934. graduate work in economics at IOTNa¢ State University and U. of Chicago, taking Married im: Wynne Thorne in 1937, did M.S. and Ph.D. at IOTa State University. Ph.D. thesis in absentia while he was at Texas A and Nt took my degree at low'a Did State i.n Dec. 1938. to Logan in fall of 1939. All five of our children w'ere born in Logan. Lived away one year, 1952-13, when Vlfynne w'as with Tennessee Valley Authority. Taught the children of the Branch in Knoxville, in Sunday school and Primary which follow'ed immediately after, He moved 1964 I with Hynne active in the LDS church, having taught :axD:hrt a.dnlt classes in the 5th ward; taught Relief ones during the WW II years; also social science 1 SS classes for high school age youngsters. mn the S8 class, and used to involve the class in current the need for mosquito abatement, school bond elect" Until about was q When I became involved in work for the state, and a Uta.h State University, I gave up church work, and h OccaSionally I go to Sunday school • .. --- .. - .. - The strong Mormon women in my great grandmother, Louisa Barnes Pratt. ''MOl' Her journals have been 'edited and appear under t_ She and her husband were mis material for D.ll.P. Great My maternal grandmother, May Hunt Larson. See my letter about her. published in Dialogue, Kept Winter a jo 1969 I have the Relief Society quilt which the Sister names on it; each sister had done a block. My m sietch about each of the sisters • . A cousin, pauline Udall Smith, also a write I1Captain Hunt of the Mormon product of Sno Battalionn, the Nicholas G. Morgan, Sr. Foundation. Jefferson Hunt was her great grandfather, pu an My mother, Louise Larson Cornish. 14:rote the story of her growing up years in Snowflake. A section of this was U published in Diagigue t vol. 6, no. 2. Summer 1971. Called ffSnow'flake Girl. .Also, in last Christmas edition of Exponent TIt she published "Arizona Outing, 1912.ff She served as PTA president when her children were in school; w'orked to a get city park in Corvallis, Oregon, and always served as a judge at the polls during elections, because she was a Democrat and Democrats were scarce. She has written a weekly letter to her children ever since they left home. She taught the literary lessons in Relief Society for years and years. Alison Cornish Thorne --2 MY community work 4-H club leader for 10 years; was leader of food and clothing clubs for my daughters and their friends. Cub scout den mother for 2 years, for youngest son and his friends. Member of Logan Board of Education May 1959 to Nov, 1970. Served as president of board for four one-year terms. Northern Utah Community Action Program. Chairman of Board Currently a member of Board. Helped organize State appointments; Governor's Commission employment of on Status of Women. from its inception. Hrote section for the report, vomen in Utah. 1966. Chairman of Aug. 1968-Aug. 1969. Building Board. Appointed by Governor. 1965. Re-appointed term. 1971. Advisory Council of State Department of Acting chairman at present. Employmen't to a second 6-yr. Security. 1966 to present. Awards: Community ServicG" Award, USU College of Family Life, 1965 utah School Boards Assoc. Distinguished Service Award, 1965 Amer. Assoc. of UniverSity Women, utah Division, Woman of the Year. Memberships: on w'omen Commission State 1971. 1967. American Economic Association Arner. Assoc. of University Women League of Women Voters. Cache County My work at utah State Universjj.z worked fulltime. Began teaching "Family in Its Social Setting" in 1964, in Dept. of Family and Child Have never Development. taught"'Rural Community Organization" for Dept. of Sociology. Also "Legal Obligations l-lithin the Family." Ourrently teaching "Family and Economic Change" for Dept. of Home Econ. Have Consumer Ed. Also "td'tB is in both HECE and Changing Roles for \{omen" which Sociology. Helped to and organize the Steering Committee on t'J'omen at USU; am still as an irregular faculty member (meaning part-time) on this Committee Tw'o spin-offs from this committee w'ere The Affirmative Action Office - The fomen's Center. Helped on women, 1972. Also taught it 1973. 1974. Working for the ERA teach first class offered (Just as background. The Salt Lake Tribune, on May 3, 1970 carries an article that resulted as an interview of me and my daughter Avril who was a student at the UniverSity Headline Her profile is on one margin, and mine on the other. of Utah at the time. Roles Cite in Today's World.") says "Mother, Daughter Legislative hearings in 1973, I was one Who testified. It was a terribly snowy The Faculty Association but Dean Phyllis Snow had the courage to take her car. backed us up by sending a faculty man with us; we picked up Beth Gurrister. chairman At the day, on Women, who lived in Brigham. It was a real blizzard. happened at the hearings except to say that the jeering by the opposd, tion at the beginning of the meeting w'as unbelievable and the way the ±rIm opposition treated Virginia Cutler afterwards was simply terrible. of the Governor's Commission I yTOn't detail what t I was out of the country during most of the not involved, although I attended sold ERA bracelets here in Cache Valley. so was a Legislative period this year (1975) and 1IIrorkshop in the late fall, and Coalition Alison Cornish Thorne --3 posts,c!ipt ''Women and Higher Education" t -- published publications in F. Robert Pa j u Lsen, Higher Education 137-156 Press. 1970. p. imensions and Directions. U. of Arizona and " John Curtis Go-w'an, George D. Demos in Gifted the "Suggestions for HAthering Educational Implicationso Wiley. 1967 E. Paul Torrance. Creativity: Its ••• p. 272-277 Wrote the Parents 1968. Pagest Quarterly Autumn others other articles, and am co-author with on farm kitchens. Experiment Station Bulletins Also wrote assorted Agricultural for the Gifted Child 1964 through on two Utah Summer UTAH STATE HI SIDRlCAL SOCIHIY ORAL HI STORY PROGRAM Monnon Women DR. ALI SON TIfORNE Interviewed by Marilyn Warenski on April 21, 1975 . UTAH STATE IllSTORICAL SOCIETY 307 West Second South Suite 1000 Salt Lake City, Utah 84101 ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM MORIDN WOMEN PROJH::T INTERVIEWEE: Dr. Alison Thorne INTERVIEWER.: Marilyn SUBJECT: Monnon Women INTERVIEW DATE April 21, W: Warenski THORNE, Dr. Alison OH-OO,234 typed draft Final 1975 This is an interview with Dr. Alison Thorne. We are at 365 East Third North in Logan, Utah. The date is April 21, 1975. I am Marilyn Warenski. Dr. Thorne, let's begin by having you tell me a little bit about yourself and your background and your education. _ T: of Mormon parents; interestingly enough, my father Newel was from Franklin, Idaho, just over the border from here, and my mother Louise Larson was from Snowflake, Arizona. They met when he went down to teach in the Snowflake Stake Academy. He received a job, after he did some graduate work in the Middle That was the place where I grew West, at Oregon State College. We had so few Mormons there, that there were up, in Corvallis. There many years when we didn't even have a Monnon Sunday School. weren't enough famdlies and there was a tremendous prejudice I attended Oregon State against Mormons at that time, also. for two Then a there was College great rift between Oregon years. State and the Uni versi ty of Oregon and I went down to the Brigham Young University. My father was transferred to the University of Oregan when the College of Commerce was shifted there. I come Comish, graduated from the BYU in 1934 and was validictorian of the I was in the same class with people like, Meridith Wilson, ChaIDlCY Harr is , and of that part i cular class. (Laughter) But it was the midst of the depression and there were Li terally no jobs available and Iowa State Uni versi ty offered me a scholarship of $25 a month and so I went; my father made up the difference so I I class. mORNE 2 didn't raised starve to death. I was so good that the next year they it to $60 a month and I could survive. I did one year of graduate work at the University of Chicago on a fellowship, pick­ ing up some kinds of information which Iowa State did not have. Then I returned to Iowa State to take I married my doctorate. Wynne Thorne just before I got my doctorate and did my thesis in absentia at Texas A & M, where my husband had a position. He's a soils man, my husband is. We were at Texas A & M for two years and then we moved to Logan and have been there almost all the time since, except for one year along about 1952, 1953 when we took our five children and went to live in Knoxville, Tennessee, because he chose to use his sabbatical as a member of the staff at TVA (Tennessse Valley Authority). It was very interesting. There, we in a branch once again. I had grown up in a branch and it takes everybody to keep a branch going. So I found myself teach­ ing all the children in Sunday School and irrrrnediately afterwards teaching them all in Primary, which occurred on the same morning. (Laughter) All the other mothers were younger than I. They had new babies and there was nobody but me to teach the kids. were W: I would like you to tell just a little bit about your children this tape because I know that they're outstanding. T: oldest is Kip Stephen Thorne. He'S an astrophysicist and I an international on black holes in the universe, guess authority He and two other men have just completed a book called "Gravi ta­ tion" which is the defini ti ve work on the subj ect. It weighs six and a half pounds. I don't understand anything that's inside it. on Our (Laughter) Our next, kept her daughter, who's Barr i e Thorne. When she marr i ed, she She's married to Peter Lyman and they have a Both he and she are on the staff at Michigan young son, Andrew. State University. She teaches sociology and initiated and teaches the first course on changing sex roles, which has become a perma­ nent part of the curriculum of sociology. She is the co-author of The most recent one which will come off the press the two books. end of the surrnner has to do with the way women use gestures and language in comparison with'men. a own name. The third child is a daughter, sandra .. Sandra took her husband's when she married, so she's Sandra Thorne Brown. She's mar­ She was the first federal woman soil con­ ried to Robert Brown. servationist to be in the hired in the state of Texas. (Laugh­ ter) They moved to Houston because her husband has work there. She had graduated from Utah State University in Natural Resources, She graduated in forest recrea­ one of the first women to do so. tion. She tells me at the moment they're considering whether or not to elevate her to the station of "Forester" in Houston if they can convince the people in Houston they need a forester. name " mORNE 3 Then there t s Avril. Avril graduated from the U of U in sociology the fi rst course on women that was taught by the helped design and. socIology department there. She's doing graduate work at Tempe in Arizona and after she completes her masters, expects to go on to Berkeley in work on her doctorate in sociology. She wants very much to do something with sex roles. She had been considered at Wisconsin, but when she said she wanted to work on sex roles, they said they didn't have any work going (Laughter) She said, well, she'd rather go to Berkeley if she could get there. (Laughter) Then our yougest is a son Lance, Lance Gaylord Thorne, who took three years of pilosophy at the University of Utah and then threw up his hands and said what he wanted to do was work with wood, 50 he went down to S. L. Trade Tech and learned about wood and is running his own business in cabinet making in Salt Lake and he t 5 just as happy as he can be. . W: That t S an outstanding family. your present connection with active in the church? That's very impressive. What is the Mannon Church? Are you still T: don t t hold any positions in the Church. I go to Sunday School from time to time, because I like to listen to George Ellsworth give the lesson. He'S very, very good. I have the Relief Society Visiting Teachers come, of course, and I do my share when it comes to putting up money to help with the Relief Society refreshments on the day when I'm listed as a hostess. We do contribute some You wouldn't call us active. foods. W: And your home? T: The home I grew up in was traditional and I was very active in the Church until about 1966, when I began to teach at the University and I had a great deal to do on state assignments and things of this sort and when we moved here to this ward, it just seemed Until then, my heavens, I easier not to take a church position. taught for years in the Relief Society. I taught the Social les­ I taught about crisis and sons and during the Second World War, shortages and conservation' and all that in lessons for the Relief I've taught a lot of Sunday School classes. When we Society. first came to Logan. Wynne and I taught an adult Sunday School class for several years in the 1940's. W: As you know, like you to T: You W: Today and how they feel about women and women's I'd like variety of interpretations of that. I Was it a traditional Mormon home? I'm interested in attitudes of Mormon women. I would about what me think the Mormon your opinion you give what all about. women it's on stand Church is, mean their stand think about that. today? There are a role. to know what you lliORNE T: 4 Well, of course, I can understand that they feel the first func­ is to be a good wife and mother, of course, and to respect the priesthood and to keep an orderly house. I can under­ stand this, but what I fail to understand is the fact that in pio­ neer times, they expected women to work very hard and they did. tion of a woman Brigham Young has statements to the effect, you know, that the clerking in the stores and the setting of type in printer's shops and this kind of thing and we know that women, especially polyga mist women often had to work very hard in order to support them­ sel ves and their children because every man who had several wives couldn't suport all of his families. Today out church seems to take the attitude that if a woman goes work, this is wrong and what's she's trying to do is the kind of thing they did back then was to help support her the to same family. I can tmderstand how the church is willing to have women work in the church and do voltmteer work in the communi ty, although I am very struck by the fact that during all these years when I worked on the migrant council in our valley, I was the only Mormon woman who was involved in i t .' I always felt that I was the link between the Mormons and the Church Women United because I belonged to both kinds of ideas. I think maybe there's been some change with re­ to I feel that the church restricts women much more but gard this, than they ought to. W: T: How do you account for the change? As a sociologist? You might have some comment to make about that. I don't know. I hate to think that it's because institutions get with time and the leadership, of course, are older peo­ ple. When the church was first organized, the leaders were all I can't under stand why it should be because it's so ex­ young. tremely conservative on some of these things, although they will say "Yes, women should have equal pay for equal work" and they will occasionally make the statement about equality before the law, but they really have no use for the amendment, Equal Rights Amendment. rigid more W: (Laughter) have been curious about. Do you think that the as much as needed were in the connmmity longer they that has something to do with the change? thing that One women and are perhaps T: Well, W: It T: Yes keep I no you mean in pioneer Yes. the thing afloat. was a times, collective effort and woman it took power everybody's was effort to necessary. that may be part of it, but of course, women are needed, I out in the working world, or there wouldn't be all these There is a demand for women. come Of jobs open which women take. course at the moment, we've got unempl oyment and so this whole suppose 1HORNE 5 thing could switch somewhat. Have you read Take Up Your Mission by Charles Peterson? It includes some things about Snowflake and these towns down there and since my grandmother May Hunt Larson was from there, in fact she. a of what went on in kept journal all her married life. In he it has a Sn?wflake uring chapter in whIch he dIscusses women and how were allowed no contact with they , the outside world. Their husbands could go out and transact busi­ and everything. Charles Peterson told me he was very critic­ ized for writing that particular section. ness W: T: What is your attitude about yourself Church influenced your attitude? as a woman and has the Mormon Well, I'm grateful to the Mormon Church for a number of things. is my father believed strongly that the glory of God is in­ telligence and he felt that we all should get good educations. This is one reason that he did this, I'm sure. He was always very proud of the fact- that so many Mormons ultimately ended up in Who's Who and I think this is true that there's something about the culture which has pushed them on. One I didn't realize how exceptional I was in going on to get a Ph.D. I came back here to Li ve and very early, which would have been in the early 19405, I gave a talk in which I said it was a unt i l good idea to send your daughters away to graduate work be­ they would meet intelligent men to marry. (Laughter) The audience just about had fits because every good Mormon girl stays home and gets married at home and she doesn't go on seeking higher But then, it's the Church which gave me the oppor­ education. tuni ty to teach during those years. I mean this kept me alive with regard to teaching. very cause If you go back through history, you'll see a time when they held the convention in Seneca Falls and they had to ask a man to chair the convention because no women knew how, but at that very moment in Utah, they were having Relief Society meetings and women knew The women had the vote here and how to chair meetings, you see. Susan B. Anthony was arrested for voting in New York, so there were some great strengths here. W: In your travels, during your life exper i ences , have you made any observations about differences hetween Mormon women and non-Mormon women? Is there anything specific about that that you have ob­ served? T: Oh, I think Mormon women are by and large quite motherly, and I was struck when I went to BYU about how much qui te feminine. more feminine the girls made themsel ves than the girls had at Oregon State from where I'd just came. I don't know about intel­ I have a general impression that some of them aren't lectualy. too intellectual within the Mormon cUlture, but I don't know but what that isn't true in the general run of women outside the Mor­ But I think Mormon women 'strive very hard to be good mon culture. 1HORNE 6 wives and mothers. I'm convinced of that and I know a woman who to this connmmity and was teaching sociology and had a Li t­ te girl and she said I want Mormons to take care of my Li ttle girl and then when she got a job in Florida she said "The first thing I'll do is hoot up the Mormons and se if ther' s a Mormon woman who'll take care of my girl while I teach." moved. W: I wanted to ask you how you feel about the ERA, the Equal Rights Amendment and it's def ea t in Utah. Well, I was going to say in 1975, but because I know you were a participant in the campaign in 1973, you might want to comment about that, as well. T: Well, of course, I regret that it didn't pass and of course, this time around when the Church came out so definitely against it, it was obvious that it wouldn't It did show the world that the pass. LDS Church calls the shots with regard to politics in this state. I think it's too bad. I am quite struck by the opposition and the tactics that they have used. As I saying, I was in a meeting in which low income women from the state had been invited in with regard to questions that they had on welfare and unempl oyment and this kind of thing. It was a meeting that was held down in Salt Lake that had been infil­ trated by the "Hot Dogs" and when we broke into small discussion Marlowe was there from the groups, why there was one in each one. BYU also. He wasn't in my discussion group. was across There these three women from Price who were really the work they were doing and they had being paid enough wanted to ask, but this woman from Aurora would questions they on how know terrible the Equal Rights Amendment keep harping you is and we can't have it pass under any circumstances, and if I would say anything about perhaps it would help these women to get better wages, she would just mow me down. (Laughter) On the other side of me was a woman who was in the office which enforced the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act, and the two were battling the women, you know these poor women were across across me and from me who wanted to share information and the sparks were just flying. I just couldn't believe what was happening. were earnest for not Then later on this snowy day when I went in to testify at the leg­ islati ve hearing, why here was this particular women from Aurora and they had some very good speakers. They really, really did. I weren't so heads their that wished empty. just W: Do you remember what three letters, were "Hot Dog" stands for? "degradation of our girls". I remember the last got it written somewhere. T: Yes, W: Apparently T: Oh, I've that was a very sophisticated campaign. If you want my personal opinion-I cleverly done. a rumor, that Mutual of Omaha and be heard some where, it may only are certain insurance companies putting money into it because you yes, it was 1HORNE 7 see, insurance policies will have to be rewritten and I wouldn't be a bit surprised. Somebody stands to profit from the defeat of the Equal Rights Amendment when you get to digging down under it and I think many of these "Hot Dogs" and other could be dupes for someone who stands to profit from it. W: It makes you very curious. T: Yes, but W: Well, who T: Well, they, women I can't prove it and so don't quote do you think the Mormon Church are bring was me on it. opposed to FRA? I suppose part of it is that they really believe that different from men and they think that the ERA is going women out into the world more so that they are competing man's world economically and in other ways in that they will be less feminine and it will damage the family. I think the argu­ ments with regard- to restrooms, banishing private restrooms, and wi th regard to draft to the war and so forth, well, these are to in a ridiculous. W: I'm interested to know if you think that first of all the Mormon will be influenced by the national women's movement and the consciousness raising that has been going on in anyway. women T: No. It is my personal opinion that there will be a back lash and that the women who wear long dresses to Sunday School, which many of them are doing, are women who have said, "We are against the ERA." This is just my personal opinion. W: Do you expect men's roles? T: No. T: Yes. W: Do you feel their role? T: For example, it's almost always I think a lot of them are. I'm sure it's a very hard emotionally, at funeral.s men who speak and is assumed somehow that they it the but they have priesthood could help take some of I think that women take the leadership. of if off them the burden this emotional Church, you know, didn't that it does so the roles the much, but I can't see in way layout I any changes really don't. that You women in the Mormon Church see in it as maintaining the Mormon Church in regard the status are to wo­ quo? satisfied with Oh, , any forseeable future, women holding the priesthood or women hav­ ing any of the power that they have, say in the Quaker Church and the Protestant. moving into that W: They T: Yes, they are in the Protestant Churches. have Protestant pastors. - lliORNE W: Why not 8 do you think they're in the Mormon Church? doing it in the Protestant Churches and T: I really don't know and I'd like to know if they're doing it in the very fundamentalist Protestant the Church of God and Churches, some of these. W: What do you think about the single or divorced woman in the Mormon Church? There seems to be a subject or' some controversy and some concern, let me put it that way concern. . married? T: Oh, W: Is that T: That single wonem all should be married. (Laughter) Yes, I don't know whether there are enough men to go around actually with the change in the balance of the population and whether they're enough very, very good LOS men to match up with the very, very good LOS women. I heard a discussion the other day on whether or not men in this communi ty, in the Mormon community, feel dis­ single criminated against and one of them was LDS and he said, "No, he realized he coul.dn ' t get to the highest degree of glory, but it was W: you mean, all a should be problem? right." That's mon they right, that s what they women as being oppressed in t believe. any way? Do you think of the Mor­ T: I don't think of them as really being oppressed, except that No. I think the Church demands so much of their time that it keeps them from maybe taking up other options, which they might. W: What about if a girl chooses a profession instead of marriage. Is that something she could be comfortable with and keep credibility How do you think that actually works? in the Church. T: don't know, well, I suppose perhaps she could. Say there are who go to work to support their sons who are on missions and this kind of thing and daughters who are on missions, but when you talk about a career, see that begins to imply, that she's spending more than eight hours a day in it and has really devoted herself to it. Theoretically, I can't see any reason why she couldn't be comfortable in the Church, but it means she might not have time to I women go to Relief Society. I don't know as Now we didn't talk about the divorced woman. it's the polygamy there is a lot of prejudice against her, maybe and could a woman leave her just up background you know where him and he with wasn't to go she couldn't get along husband was she I when was come to sur­ was her she back after ready. divorce. She was Gates' in Susa Young good prised to standing in spite of it, you know. if' hear'about mORNE 9 W: I had a thought that I kept losing, now I remember. It was just back to what we were saying about the ERA and about whether things would change in the Mormon Church as far as women's roles are con­ cerned. The ERA caused such a furor, not just among non-Mormons, but you know many Mormon women were supporters of the ERA and felt a little bit angry about the church stand. Many Mormon women seem to think that their ancestors would have supported the ERA. Would you care to comment about that? T: Oh, yes, I felt all along that mine would have. My great, great grandmother, Louisa Barnes Pratt, was a very forthright woman. She was the one who was called Mormondom's first woman missionary. And grandmother, May Hunt Larson, was a strong woman. Yes, I think. they would have. I think they had the mast head on the Women's Exponent about the rights of the women of Zion and the rIghts of the women of all the nations. I think it would imply equali ty before the law, I really, really do. And of course women pretty much had equality before the law when they first got into this territory and it is written in our constitution. W: Yes, it is. T: This is W: This is something I'm very curious about. enced this change. T: Yes, yes, and I can't see why with the constituion you should W: an odd thing. if You know you're going object to why we experi­ be consistent to the national ERA. I'm wonder­ I have asked most of the questions I have on my mind. would like to further make about have if comments you any ing you You might want to add the subject of women in the Mormon Church. something. T: about your remar k about the women in the church who supported the ERA and then discovered, you see that the church was I would be interested in knowing really very much against it. whether they intend to keep working for the ERA or whether they will switch over and take the stand that the church has, whether or not their neighors are making life rough for them because they There's a lot of things I'd like to know about. stood for the ERA. W: There are some women who would like to make Church. How would they go about doing that? T: I think the really, really don't know. p'!blication of the are Women Exponent II is a good thing. expressIng .themselves and Well, changes in the Mormon (Laughter) I trom bme to time there are some rather Liberal things that come but I don't know how women have fared since they lost out in it the Relief Society Magazine and they can't have their own treasury I really don't know how you'd make and this kind of thing. It's just easier for me to be Church. Mormon changes in the inactive than to try to Change it. THORNE 10 W: That's very T: But this is what concerns me, do other women who are for the ERA, Mormon women, what is their reaction? Are they being inactive or are they to in their going stay pitching and hope that somehow or other there will be changes. Of course, we will get a lot of these things piece meal, but it's going to take time and the fact that the Utah Supreme Court upheld the idea, you know that a woman over 18 should not be supported in college whereas a man can be That was Utah's stand and then the United supported up to 21. States Supreme Court mocked it down. Well, this showed that there had to be a change and I'm sure there's other things tha t ough t to be W: Per haps T: Yes, W: What some interesting. changed. changes it may be about a the - will be made in that way. long haul. women who were eties, could they institute I think in Relief T: Well, W: That's very add? T: No. W: I find it a hear your opinions. some working through changes? Society you're supposed the to Relief Soci­ do what's spel­ led out in the lessons. Although in my time I used to do things wi th regard to the comanm i ty and we had quite a battle hoping we could get mosquito abatement years ago and our Relief Society wrote open letters to the paper and all kinds of things. But there isn't very much of this going on. interesting. I can't think No. interesting Is there or of anything else you would like to anything. very interesting to talk with you and you have such an It's useful to and varied background of experiences. certainly glad you're writing this book because I will There was some sociological or see it spelled out. glad about why Utah's ERA was an article had that poli tical journal Utah. in defeated was defeated, why IRA Well be T: I'm to W: In 1973. T: Oh, W: That' 5 that the was it. It T:, . Society Magazine, yes. an one that had it- in. Someone gave a reprint of excellent article. indicated that the strategy of those who not very me good. were for the FRA was '!HORNE W: 11 Yes, I think is 1973 they did they should have. opposition. I as o didn't. organize that campaign as well suppose they didn't really anticipate the not T: No, W: It looks like it T: Yes, it looked reasonable. W: And if there hadn't been such an organized have been a problem. I think that in 1975, T: Yes, they tried W: Go about it that time. T: No and of W: That's open to T: You don't think that true? W: I think that many T: Oh, do you? W: Many people say that the church actually did we was more a be to was for it. reasonable idea. more was opposition it wouldn't however, they began. aggresive. vigorously, it course but sticky they didn't stand a chance at then because of the Church's stand. question. I mean. people don't think that was true. make not How do you feel about that? statement. T: The governor a policy I think it was interpreted as a policy statement so it rr:dght have been, but I was interested when the Brigham Young as well Family Association carne out and you know it was a man speaker, Well, . Whitney. W: T: . . . Whi tney Young, Young, yes, who resented the Susa YOlIDg Gates Awards because these had worked for the FRA, and the church was against mA. women interesting. W: That's very T: And then the response was from these women that Susa Young Gates But didn't just belong to the family, she belonged to everybody. Now what I want to know is what happened to he didn't back down. Beatrice Marchant as the president of the Relief Society in her Did they take her out of the Relief Society? ward. W: Because she T: The Susa Young Gates Award. was one of those women who received ... 'IHORNE W: And T: Yes, W: her 12 was a proponent of the ERA. and. thIn president is presi dency the Relief of a Relief Society? Society she has lost now, Apparently women who are in those responsible positions in the Church are somewhat threatened if they take the stand gainst the policy. I am not sure of that, but there was a note In the paper about Jan Tyler who is teacher at the BYU. There was some talk about her losing her position and the note in the paper or the article in the paper said she would not lose her job. Mannon I didn't T: Oh, W: She apparently spoke for the ERA which was interpreted against the church leadership because they just made their see that. at the time. I don't know very much about that. familiar with this? ment to be state­ You're not I know Jan, but I haven't seen her lately and I didn't know that this had happened, but she's always been active in the Church. T: No, W: That's T: Yes, you really ought W: Yes, I plan T: As I say, I'm awfully will be fascinating. W: I think it's T: on, W: I would like to mention just before terminating this home, will you tell about the quilt that you have? T: Oh, my grandmother, May something that would be to speak interesting do that. Well, all thank you very much for your time. a probably. to her to to know. right, It's I will conclude this and really been interesting. glad you're doing this book. I think it worthy subject. I do. Hoot Lar soD: , it s hers. tape in your Wel, I might She began keeping th.IS Journal whIch. was te tell you about her. She had eleven chi Ldren and kept It unt i l Snowflake. of history into sevral volumes, and writtn runs it and died she the day volumes and one time the governor of Ar izona came to give a patr i otic talk and he knew that she had literally the history of Snowflake and so he asked her to prepare some notes so he could I can show you the place gi ve a good talk and in her journal, wrote the speech for the Governor of Arizona and where it says, (Laughter) he gave it pretty good." . "I' the quilt, which the Relief Society sisters I had made for her mother when she retired from the Presidency. SociRelief the Snowflake of President think May Hoot Larson was sisters embroidered her own name ety for 15 years and each of the My mother inherited mORNE on 13 a separate block and these are all put together. It"s a very a mother has a written quilt. My paragraph or so valuable kind of about every woman whose historically significant. W: That's much. very unique and name is on interesting. the quilt All END OF INTERVIEW so· that itt,s right, thank you quite very­ APPENDIX (Subsequent In events April 1977, Val.Iy ," pertinent to the daughter Barrie subject and of the interview.) did a program at "Hands the Women's Center at contains references to University. It was and to the Relief Society quilt. The Mormon. o,!r wOJ?en vIdeo-tape IS In the MerrIll Library at USU and I have a copy of it. Across the Utah State my a conference forebers, I sponsored by video-taped and In July 1977, Anne Hatch, Vicki Colemen and I went together to the Sal t Palace to the IWY conference, attended by 14,000 women, most of them Relief Society members who had been urged to attend. About 80 percent of those who attended were against the Equal Rights Amendment, and 20 percent were in favor. Vicki was one of the very few black women there. In November 1977, Anne Hatch and I went to the national IWY meet­ in Houston. We stayed with my daughter Sandra and all three of ings I wrote a report of the meeting for the state AAUW us were observers. and sent copies to each branch. September 1978, Sonia Harris get backing for Mormons for the Johnson of Virginia was in Logan I had known here when we ERA. I had Li ved in the First Ward in Logan, and I know her parents well. After she returned to Virginia I was a few friends in to hear her. In asked to get up a list of Chace Valley Mormon women who favor mA. We wrote and phoned Senators two hours of phoning I had a list of 25. Garn and Hatch and senators of other states about the importance of extending the ratification period for ERA. Much jubilation over the In to extensi on when it occurred! . During the academic year 1977-78 I held monthly meetings in my home of a small group of LDS and non- LDS women who sought to know each other better so we could be part of the foundation for an interdenomiOur group was one of sev­ national counci l of women in Cache Valley. eral that were spin-offs of the "Hands Across the Valley" conference So far, the council has not yet materi­ mentioned in paragraph above. alized. Alison Thome