Irene Fisher Oral History Interview

Oral history interview of Irene Fisher by Marilyn Warenski about status of women in Mormon culture.

UTAH STATE ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM UTAH WOMEN'S PROJECT Fisher INTERVIEWEE: Irene INTERVIEWER: Marilyn Warenski SUBJECT: The PLACE OF INTERVIEW: DATE OF W: Let's Fisher's 4651 Holly Salt Lake April started get Equal Rights Amendment in Utah Irene INTERVIEW: SOCIETY HISTORICAL home Lane City, Utah 8th by having tell you more me chronological order what happened in the F: Okay. will I talking be coalition because that was organized group in Utah, Rights the just have would pass Amendment. ERA in '75. coalition groups to was because and was organized it became after education done It took a of -- the of group, 1973 obvious very some lot one working for be formation of ERA strongly Equal the defeat that in Utah, the if of there it would the interesting in itself, because the women's involved beginning It really the that Campaign. ERA perspective about' the in less or were the so suspicious people involved of each were so other at suspicious the of ranged from each other. We very liberal groups, W: Did you F: No, I and was so kind really was start did Chairman as it and in was obvious of the resigned about six she began trying with the we would in the just had We was. successful and found booths and that talked the of socials individual trying published W: How F: Well go Did groups? initially, group lot of defeated. was which Mormon much were ERA thing. recruiting members from to the sent group she thought might formed and then from be that various to speak? every interested, we a was; meetings to did and teas the letters out We really type of go families, more that Carol McGill very inteesting. was do really were neighborhoods and in and you so We could we ERA which young that organization core about person really great, what to people know what let the of whatever Fair generally, coffees it do to State a women, newsletter a did you women's to to be group early in the campaign for ERA, the men, receptive than the lot would the just got She demands before months at time. the educating individuals of way that of convener long a group idea the was quietly try very bylaws passed our group? that quite for was charge of McGill Carol not. just getting so to women fight. a Chairperson busy, that of and conservative very and a called organizations and did whatever that particular organization needed to have to -2- get their board's appproval to represented. be had working coalition, because the organizations. inconspicious soon it as organized well. we So don't I until attendance informing thing, those but would think didn't get legislature started, the legislature continuously and when the kind became It anti ERA heard of of about F: Immediately people from have a me advantageous we did but to be we introduced. and It we as were making as the had type of publicity. of When evidence in be lobbyists had we large a that ,to We all at the table and had a Senate. the have can that a it table, would why can't be that so put up be a we table knew the interesting -3- that day to we that know we more roaming lobbyists until free might organization started ERA decided get permission, permission lot a put up the saying if they table, figured that. Yes. calling as interesting little wrangle an the W: I and attempted we forces telephone in front or organized be in in was forces about ERA and the time. time we started offered we women also that at legislative session began. the workshops that have ERA pro forces ERA really, probably press did anti that even non-public because we really strength our early, obvious became weren't we remain to could we ratification, particularly, felt we tried We as that and individuals, get to of time the at organizations member 32 And the had ERA that time equal was quite a had few groups elected were before that possible. We possible, and The it Well, was getting that was not? F: There was not. it there It W: It's the 34 would did be in votes yes it so from head the it but questionnaire it was did and look a can They very Cause from a interviewed candidates before had 32 and house democratic a labor they party platform, count not so it was not a this but the many time it were in democats you, important, the about were in two years ago, easily passed, and no, party platform, that whatever the had that said was. legislature? legislature dominated for fight platform apparently. legislators that voted how democrat there Apparently there had been some know and was but but ... I think and the that they were majority. F: count legislature Common a both well the like look hard, came AAUW an defeated, was were you I and the they would support F: elected, were part of into There was -- counts from also Right. Do ERA it AFLCIO W: W: on had we those Right. and stands it? wasn't F: their they after elected. were W: legislators they knew questionnaire, group. of undecided, nine and see that was counts working from the day before were we started no to after and head taken majority -4- leadership was in the It democratic. leaders the All ERA. leadership in The Whip, Roger Rawson, leadership that editorial Church's the and was, opening day of not, but in the sticking, in W: the Then and you found that of them were, legislators W: So you don't F: Surely there's days. If pass know then climate, that. W: the head carne the point lowest count in still votes yes no because and the were you of any time of any other other Do the do you or them Mormon, were most legislators days, two in two a said that their that the there any have defection? been had blamed the there'd writing saying have could you if -- for they change wasn't other length of were against on political a really time explanation that for we of. Well, back up speech? of reason reason Really there wasn't think Mormons were transcribe) to most And are. might after but point that at point? that at unable they had begun constituents could 16 were defection defected that the ERA, another took really was major saw of time there (both talking, know? Most which count. legislators F: day after The News the legislature, Beverly White, the and House, in else to Majority the helpful. Deseret favorable was everyone most was Representative Beverly White, the House Majority Leader, the was the a you minute. think What that had -5- about any Barbara Smith's negative effect on it? F: With that people the legislators it legislature convened, lot of and there her personal opinion the was in F: Sherry Davey. was asked She that W: You at decision a could to but really was was who women personally and Smith talk that meeting So quiet. have the during the summer, coalition whether the of it would people leaders of get just merely trying to tell -6- the the trying explain, be to her coalition the want Church had spent trying wise to say a our and about make them what we a whole make to on to make a Church Church them of was point.? that we she know. determining, to not and fact public don't Mormon at in had called for not We don't I other group to at the to as small was that to who women that or the Smith Barbara but room." way one Earlier, meeting keep that Mormon to say anxious not were send Mormon speech by the Church, case, "oh, this of out No. it really or devout Barbara told remember I said, statement F: not was very called that to the was consumption. that the was make to given permission people really or a coalition, the whether to say that? Who that about the her. to W: been debate of One coalition the talked of in active were would I not were before was disturbing was who women lot a policy. church was Mormon it who with in contact carne point, because that at I part see ERA. a to if we Trying statement, were perceiving what and advantageous, should dear, take do that. if what W: did, we all we how and in that time we if off decide would make thought was that thought and home went this at thought it we fact, like we in of favor did come had continually we oh -- Church the were they said nothing, because they would be Spafford Belle But like feel do audience and obviously better didn't that Then an stand, a could ERA we it. against it in August, out I think. F: Right. Right, they but kind of were W: Nothing that F: Right. Right, editorial in came legislators W: These F: Plus and equivocal pass policy. think That would came decided to be out, go there the to and speak to were the women legislators plus Marchant, meeting didn't Lindsey who and see V. is a the former legislator, and Kimball a a group of Office, his two couple of if men. Beatrice and went Beth Jarman, or assistant whose was Church As three Byron Fisher and Carlisle Spencer the personal opinion. my could Richard until that probably legislators weren't affected out, that against it, out come statements. Church as really do I editorial that as they would opinion. their soon and along with and they ,really counselors. don't that They saw another was very but they did say that you obviously have the right of free obvious that the name Church -7- I was recall, but opposed to the it ERA; and you, agency, decision. No because this of saying left legislators as bishops will be this or removed not saw, and "this vote against W: He did, in fact, F: He did vote for if you want me would be W: I F: We did in the do is then vote the ERA, poll and for comment undecided, He it not was know what quoted in Bish?p I'm the not paper going on, but issue an don't I know did. he a because of poll his in his legislative got help from the University of Utah we and we his did it district just like was professional pollster designed a properly, not was very very, against 42% biased poll, a and closely 41% and we presented that to him said at that time that he would vote a statement close he would vote, but do. Now if I it was don't the how and 18% day before the close, know for for he we ERA if didn't interpret that. W: I F: If he think vote paper that's really for as ERA? that's coalition did the us It vote. the coalition did, the -- that divided. a Lindsey his Church. interested. a and found for and Communication Department; a as Richard own office their from your it's wishes." to paper, district, Church my was make to against vote Byron Fisher, you probably saying, have type of thing. that he could to will it very was or by voting interesting. still for it if he wanted for to it. -8- and felt cover a like he wanted statement in to the he really criticized for W: Yes, F: Right, he is running not was political his don't I so for how that sensitive. felt very then in district that hinging not was Bennett, who against it, switched He again, that vote on influenced him. that Charles voted then and reelection future know speculation and heavily, was, statement. that at so all, There was some sponsored the bill, votes with Byron Fisher, but that's pure speculation. W: Did you F: No. No Tyler up had we and until husband in his day an talked against very much tea has one seemed that the very a She then? since that. wives and the to came moved don't legislature interesting event, it. of did and wanted Maybe know. I don't talk tea was wives if the to Jan her, but her to influential the on was or to opposed she know wife listen to legislator's for and That His luncheon she'd been very much sponsor I switch him to ERA. time being his legislator's for decision, of for account ever opening really was you've got the script. W: Was that was the F: Yes. W: No, F: the there a Yes. Yes, that I the at Historical Society where Jan Tyler speaker? don't I one have reprint may she have the of has script. that some. some in Is there an article or is somewhere? Shauna the Adix basement. - has I some. can I check. think W: I had hoped attend to that tea, of sort slip in as regular Historical Society volunteers, but your one of didn't. I (laughter) F: It really was that Jan Tyler risks give to forcefully, was saying. W: Her speech F: After W: So F: in F: or her This is what She say I what was dimension to very what to she editorial? editorial. the the leadership her about written at of the that, least before close enough in confusion about it, that so time it the that was a do. to know what the Church had said at time. see. some after with talk so her didn't I the through it's and -- thing for could issue obvious very was came added after speech editorial, that an came should you but It took difficult that W: before It taking great personal was and came well, Yes. speech, gave fact, event. she really She Church's that and Church. obviously, W: that Mormon -- felt editorial. the she, interesting an Yeah. It speculation was about so close was that at that before, time in that there response to . F: Right. W: Do you Right. think legislators It that at was she that obviously planned before was effective time? -10- in anyway. influencing the was or F: I think low I who think Mormon fact there sent many, fact In letter a that that the to Mormon had that were Mormon community, and reinforce it, by sent Mormon women just their not at leaders were of lot a aware still and to that legislator, every were very, was least at Church the letters many there there total that from came they got after were women. and ERA, represent mail the because for were in not who that coverage consciousness of level women did press important in making the legislators very a the own legislators. W: On behalf of responded F: On not just please well. I talked about Martha W: She What F: She did? was said She Is her for letters their the forum and ancestors how There thoughtful letters, it's ERA, the to very letters. important, in but. the Tribune the ones as who they would have been it. Fraizer letter. just simply -- Personal particularly interested in was supporters of F: and letters vote many were Right. themselves. many beautiful There organizations or that? to behalf of were W: themselves who just she this died the name? from Vernal wrote I have it was a beautiful week. who one -- wrote her my grandmother would her grandmother had about her grandmother? file. have wanted me write to this letter. W: Because the one? Campaigning for gone to suffrage. -11- Washington - is that F: There think from W: Oh, it W: Her too the know. is is He hum. of Dean Admissions George and Algie Baliff. Now, outstanding woman fields. her tape I F: in for read that Urn hum. That was my files F: I'm not W: No, this least been has Perhaps very a should I get idea. good a that was long letter a in too. the I Provo may paper. that have in a the week important thing ERA would very be and There chronologically. well is no particular reason, it's interesting. other during once up. this it's The session, she me. letter fine. is that all it look doing Right. do Harvard at somewhere. should I many probably be didn't W: F: a would just something Yes. do to or physician. a W: W: I Peterson's Grethe That's Urn That and paper, by George and Algie Baliff F: F: Provo it? isn't husband now. Algie Baliff. know I yes. don't I the Tribune in was in Provo. mother F: good letter another was I activities that the coalition tried legislature, something newsworthy to get press coverage. should introduced that's say everyone right away at Also expected the at an that beginning the of really what the coalition planned -12- to the to and with do, since would gear up, give coalition opposition the enough not supporters of ERA met perhaps, it for rock at if bottom. editorial, suggested and willing, it while, because we we little a time were couldn't It be any was thought We to. it introduced we Church that were if it support, in wanted we the cool to we -- whenever right after but democratic leadership, organized early, were we that good it introduce to easy democratic the early really to the the to would be were low as and worse, maybe with. time W: Some F: Right, W: Let and ask me having F: I think all sponsors. We because soon as be bombarded do have W: that. to There was We've some that as with political ploy support the are attend was to, press finding willing of and letters there behalf of the a calls that and the a don't I and said name we the they might need, thing. -13- was know there right we're name, press are now, going to just don't want that we sponsors. are that votes. were legislative business got other but give to of they that legislators says us some sponsor. time being told, democratic one stated a only the were not regain could speculation on really heavy bombardment of a we The time they of But to that that what did we this. you saying why. things difficult a really not if maybe and letters recharge? to that in itself coalition but it was to not was stir a a up the deliberate F: No. W: It F: just wasn't. it No, W: That's F: Right. what it sponsor W: And they F: And Vee a the Beth were Carlisle of think her and so had a It on. was ERA as that the ERA probably out was at of was her so that very three bill, women who the as and she would she important in upsetting that she It spoke around been has to was introduced the most F: Right. W: She did not F: No, she didn't. time Right, before get her And to to the bills she her bills? deadline. passed, been has -14 - did she? getting a who as her think republicans tried introduce it for Peterson upsetting I also caucuses introduce to and is long enough time Georgia early, that Jarman as the the going was Beth Beverly White jockeying for instigation have So, as sponsors. committee. W: so did major think r debate. was defeated. not any of Well, and were packet of bills soon rules •.. influence things when they changed their listed the strong legislator I main job. the ended and be Beverly White. and most would the be Jarman sponsors. to as sponsors then to sponsors. who question major quite properly. it numerous House happy and it and some three were sponsor very that always were happened, probably did major There then but that as soon report was could be there didn't thought, I There sponsor, press the was lot of to get political mileage out feelings, and know, thing pettiness and you it, of saying it sour that against voted democrats the of hurt type of that oh, and grapes because was her bills. W: In F: Right. to revenge. do and That's it send before hold to was the to the democrats republicans forcing don't It committee just late for and it which then it came come the and out, that day. didn't. The if you're to courtesy of having they responded to send it controlled by could Well, it just know, would Committee to. there to the voted out -­ compromising. had been be a vote it, And -15- it force at least there in that decided in I a give are us the it out and in saying the hearing, several it that forcing earlier fair the which successful were good hearing, that. a had victorious legislators day the leaders try to defeat and to it vote ... time it could be he getting you democratic but women said little bit of a the They did going in than at replublicans appeared on bills you works. sooner exactly out coalition would much was Rules they wanted with but that how enough, the introduce and effectively was the finally decided we could we Rensher successful were out, know time the Speaker really whenever out, F: as Committee Rules But long Then the what but story, as ERA off cut introduced. W: another roll and call that, votes don't I legislator's feelings might W: I want have to you're looking this on stands and individual at this, on you see. of some if know those records. don't I need that check to out. F: W: Have and No, Church from all, legislators, every and STOP ERA, and ever meet their John there There the Commission on don't any "hot the more I they rational, Trying Then in to you fact, make did was were anti of The and than talk the think "hot that Nona every week appear be taking the STOP a them One ERA the Covernor's and the was people, control rational down not STOP campaigns, ERA to was did I Dyer, irrational dog" organization. -16- pro of That and' 75 trying emotional, don't and to make less on the all to the was the to were and a Utah article that. running around it the leaders two the' 73 they themselves and ERA Women, her in to opposition groups? somewhere, but were come Mormon couple of groups. a dogs" and Independent Utah an opposition your editorial the Society the about willing they were Birch think, were They organized Status were to where Church leadership. that people groups.? Lynne Harrison, who were know Who ERA you Mormon They send big difference, W: the issue. Group anti ask to the Independents. ERA any influence? First of in to wanted I aside from F: talked you I one is and their group. themselves. issue. organization was, No F: No W: This F: Right W: And the F: The "hot • Oh, • was This F: Urn W: Who different a dogs" "hot dogs", but not operating were much as ••• writing home, at as letters. thing? of sort operating, were think, I altogether? group duplicating letters, W: no. hum. lady who debated with Suzanna the was Grua on Channel Two? Christensen F: ,Irma W: She sounded F: She works up at She lives in Salt I interested was she group F: Well, the sides of Capitol the Lake. of one know I place. some don't I lives she that doggers". "hot the know. in Bill district. Cochane's W: like much very was in why she chosen, was know, what you representing. anybody people, ERA had lot of a that wanted very to time difficult present both finding opposition speakers. W: I F: We see. got who can speak from a get against we several Utah "We've got calls. times, it?" and there County someplace against it. The main And -- so she was LeAnn a many was one woman ERA, that from of but did Provo Christiansen who opposition speaker, -1 7- for course, or spoke was W: Her F: I attitude think has like knew Junior the State's about groups, that have to women particularly, the people, she and would laws rape that rights, let impression W:, It's F: Yes. the thing debate the on around in W: No. didn't go. F: It apparently was and I the or '73 a needed to going on, she important for was to and that it, she groups Ogden, in one people leave with say other to sometimes -- was the and draft ratification to idea the sort left that thing, of that see. to air, because very emotional, no be was and matter viewed of not big joke: against ERA, that very she I the about talk don't know day if you of were '73. debate generally went interesting it's think I was talked she When that group knew the upon ..• difficult a was abolished be ERA thought she although she didn't directly so she and people changed depending pro a what on fight against to met up right. that had we with was thing, which property right to rights. State's said she League, quite and intelligent talking what she When audience. her with do to more Although so. ragged going herself ran public meeting. after public meeting just she and Georgia Peterson, and the what with and peop1e'were shouting good quality, it STOP hurt ERA any woman group was happened with more -18- and respect the than it was that in just was for agreement vote, that. that in women dignity? little W: A F: Yeah, right. the to chairs So, Lynne Harrison and Nona Dyer with went Secretary of State's Office, loud peaker system which and the overflow, for rotunda and and they agreed to there be the for asked we in was out set that the at up request. our avoid W: To F: Right mob a scene? and because that they would that at told people to and and early too, day which was pro we gall ery the W: That F: He was was rally ERAers had no choice, 12:30 and but was they had to people sitting had and until happened though the debate started even have would enough people had Saturday before, the at 9 :00 what George Biggey, then we also asked if if he would all there the to went he come say would divide . good a get and So doors the in would really ridiculous. Sergeant of Arms, close to ERA come so knew we want anti the 2:00, at I most move. agreeable to that and people honored it very well. W: Who were they Were the people who showed up for members of the the opposition? primarily? STOP ERA group in the proponent section, Do you know? F: I really don't W: I knew they know but a I lot of were wondered know. the people part of about the the coalition, other -19 - side. you University people, F: I don't from, but came they who know do I and were that know don't I did wards some word the where know letter writing campaigns. W: They did? F: Yes, W: Was in F: I wards the don't know we individual W: That F: Urn would know what I would F: I really thing of the it ward to not am in for some us to Church as to edi tor ial or Chur ch that, but we track to obviously was have just been down. literature from if you the want that to that came it. see thought send to thought a viewed and this was, pol icy and expecting that try was -20- we to the really get to in a that public a fact, fel t get how to leadership the to had the wisest the that letter ascertain to whether even so we After order. obviously coalition ERA and try statement sent was zealous. of was should be not it. way, statement that could It going in chronological do would I that piece came see and being naive in wards source. over one editorial, Church's respond got so information different that was Society leadership Relief universal, some interesting be like W: from who I've hum. see several came thing. of know? you did We ward, through kind this and the it wasn't but know, a do or that. by out literature out authorized this assume an passed and just I ike maybe statement reasonable an we wer e like thing to do. I So sent we that said and we the stand really of assume could not W: You F: I received which was noted your call W: had to give This country, and Church's position if Then days after was a reasonable probably a month we we did we did we ERA call send length of time answer? no an two answer lines this sent a you not was relation read I the of and the to if that after "we we every So we media in the would I and it. which statement Church. you received have had it sent we That's ERA." told that happy be like. would conference press same to opening an letter copy said, It conference, press a long. in letter valley there. we where climate a saying recived did felt we publicize to the of five think I in clearly stating. letter a which letter, wait to get the was effort every majority a this that make nationally Church the conference, press the would we by registered mail, Kimball Spencer to desired by was would a letter a that you at the the LDS had Capitol? F: No, well W: But it F: We had this was Lowell Institute Service his of -- of and Capitol. the at different one. Bennion, who has been Religion Council point viewed a was and that past head of of and is now is an active Mormon, he view how a Church the this is not -21- head the editorial Church Community interpret should doctrine, from be etc. etc. and individual, obviously, each that judgement and legislator every type of thing. We thought conference, we did national W: And F: We had W: Oh really? F: In fact, in you, it very good press same time try difference this and same, a was of what the own get to Church the picture in utah. ERA fact? there -- in made had his use the do must that at coverage press editorial did and it must was in was a good story in the Washington there the day same that the Post. vote was taken. would like W: I F: There were carry the stand and W: You We whom the wire than story from State, where got clippings that the there so did you was and get in Church's several were type of to did were My parents there some contact there the covered ERA, services . national that coverage? got not wire UPI back. affected contacted the from places clipping papers, sources do it a that. and AP just we California press F: how sent of copy the knew, we Dakota a -- and story, North in see stories that people to a cover and we lot services did of get here that press sources the contacted from. interference where we coverage But is true Catholic -22- in we a lot in -- affairs places Church more the got nationally from Churches apparently this Massachusetts and in influences. of just W: I'm very F: There's this silent a That's F: So we hoped get down. that one And W: that the does press play not wished we but least at than coverage more had gotten did we did, but we locally more make the we -­ point that up furor a is that not going die to (laughter) the F: get stirred The Yes. aspect. influenced. had Right. women to that, on That Yes. W: agreement We some. the Church F: that interesting. very had coverage W: in up. W: did interested conference press had we legislators that press conference, but Well, it think it it mentioned you introduced, was when was the particularly good a was imagine. I controversial not was day that there. were didn't I was, the on did we in any way stating the -- situation. F: Right. end show to letters we met to know I and to "I've got ERA that had we That's try and five that legislature the legislators. right for support it. letters, things other The we were set we and I did get out originally the coalition the only have said a no an that for ERA -23- and 200 knowing of way awful only write person toward the goal of 40,000 you influence, but legislators letters did lot to were against," of your have if own the saying and we'd "are say, "well, How F: Well, is that could we opposition, did . attitude and decided that then would cramp we iust to go effort of mailing (Both people? the to this if show well as willing the to the all we writer's were we letters? -- looking at, were that get you . suffer mailing letters Where . get 40,000 that legislators what the W: adopted we they're but " we to they would say, And they're from, where so going you district?" your know against, were them of don't I letters W: they from as expense letters. talking hard to under stand) F: Every organization agreed They could duplicate signed though. but we did some away every -- one and then was so W: For ERA? F: Yes, or his was were handwrite all who isn't It saying, iginally said, "well my being for all we was "well, all mail ERA the is letters. personally letters so know, you did mass effective throwing I'm district" from my against it was started but effective. started that mail they of number which time from against heavily. was ERA" Logan strong. very most issue letter legislator Logan had was It legislators that certain signing by hand, to produce letters. a them but didn't We stick to in much. They had successful, wh ich the and masses a he fantastic started ar e -24 - wr coalition saying, ong," so you group "this know, is it that one didn't going do any (laughter) change his mind, but to of One come. good. the things other did he What at least we did the all-night vigil the night before steps of the Capitol the day before. the on vigil the W: . F: It a was good rally, Adix Shauna Did F: Really good. She's she? kind of the and made W: there Then bags have camping, opponents had are going W: How many F: There to not and all a started -- one you to go it was made. statements person. all-night vigil the home." go could not But women -­ some he here all very sleeping have that would this because of was Capitol the they won't be there "well, we in people anything thousands -- night. presence in and And all thinking person people sign had we people who signed have rally a look of like we the there night. people did show up approximately? were there Did marching into his office saying come be that did he good they'll okay, us could of said, carefully informed were had speech. the because Secretary of State we We vote. an large crowd and a some night the That's was articulate very a were beautiful a interesting past 10:00. did day before? the good rally and there a the not was letters have was he -- for a night. we'd each have of all In 30 the -25- and group of core that's in we fact, there probably wanted we were had representing to do 108 15 was were to originally one organizations in -- the well 32 just coalition, representative to symbolize the a coalition, but there indicated people after 108 know they wanted that afternoon, but all-night vigil W: Yes. F: When That reporters reporter make and 4:30 little coverage from that from anything else that all channels. 6:00 P.M., one of the channels we at back very was think, I supportive. the F: We had sacks if you saw The worst there people News night just radio KALL was to brought his wife, he and and Deseret did. we came possible time. in them. about with sand and of this on any candle a don't I know TV. did. W: Yes F: Spelling coming and ERA up State it really STreet. At you're doing anything human neatest until cover the punchy. A the it couple hours all every there, were to night literally. all which W: I in on came a.m. rally there was really was you press got we a really did, That came sure had been live coverage waiting their with than more and come eally did. arrived I there got we to who that than people more were scenes about, 2:30 boyan d rem i n was a.m. is c in g W: (can't understand) F: Yes a 72 was -- that vigil, interest year really impressive looked or old I not, fight . Virginia Picht from the Unitarian -26- . .' but who woman sitting and talking ab ou the r don't to a know if one of was there college-age . Church. She was reminiscing just sitting was 72 steps There's nobody that would do that." F: And everybody That's F: But the the same ongoing work W: Is that F: Some to a go who drew It a the in involved were not were kind different university people. of lot all-night vigil the to coalition. from Logan to rally." a them before saw And if and worked you started suggested It is that like seemed wonder . . They after or • possible this very to was "well, there and be all. -27- just we and I They just showed that. important, did all so campaign. that things you, up ••. after the done, which effective . at just were it time, needed a said, and organization shortly your until up down came They thought vigil. the it would She blanket." my you're "well, right? for If take Here came the of Quakers wanted you the on snow. saying, and her to generally, people, people, did. wet know (laughter) people who of were cold, this "I really pretty good. W: never cold. be fine." "I"m say, talking was must you in a.m. and amazing? that cold, 2:30 years sitting that's old capitol at that shaking his head saying, there is who in involved had been nobody Isn't F: she fight for the about there's W: W: fellow young and sufferage, women's he this to in It that fact, makes Utah. W: In F: I W: You F: There strongly question myself if it is possible. presented it and is only don't even within fear that maybe really majority of that sure thing one is that strong nicely. very want at politics do, W: Oh, F: If but the least a about because in ERA defeated. of see what you we had made that really changed the would W: It F: Yes. as Beth W: She did? I F: She did. And and she W: That's F: And was we did not shown I'm in make a were we for were ERA anywhere. in the for campaigns, ERA, then and if might have we legislature. was Davis from that she about very County which anyplace, as was for said should clearly be all ERA. that. surprising to a lot of people elected. surprising there ERA wondered it support the Jarman campaign the And reflected. heavily against during big issue a of nature have been Like not was do. the mean. voter was that that active they said they a Utah are because is show who fear done There in people majority near have itself. polls really that if could we of campaign, the Now I there majority All really afraid that people would be maybe coalition the the impressed. so was heavy majority of people a big issue think I ERA. people, I was an to me. American Party candidate, -28- and you know, it was wouldn't have what said, she don't I working for me and is there you then are in said was I Maybe that ERA launching we for "I have our will vote I've got only hope for part of the active. be campaign again, your to were and ERA, the on from legislator that's feeling strong for J in issue campaign my not better a said, he worked should an in one was and ERA them." a people that work So, that because keep fai th wi th "77, W: for that made have been There know. people the ERA, had we would we County who voted utah to maybe places, position, for If clearly very district in her voters surprised. have been other the so maybe she candidate, saying win did she But, won. If speculation. that's so American Party that hadn't been there election, close very a pretty soon? F: F: not dying. of changing our bylaws right at our Well process that on W: are Right. Are you going Well, we'll Committee what we were time. to and a been the We but load Nominating We now, assume as leader Committee. now, learned have somebody in charge who knows what in weren't '73 we've were really learned, very - and we'll A and vote Nominating I don't know awful lot, around this an was the again? because the and people who minimally involved •..• -29 going through are I appointed right decide. have involved We carry have has meeting, next they will should time, we this W: But did you in campaign, F: Well we W: That were F: Well, it would have W: F: knew that but That was sort of know what ERA? Did on number of But there in '73 think women's groups list a of but to give you weren't it? endorse heavily, a the and specific active. some? F: Oh, yes. W: The Junior F: They ended up endorsing and joining, I League, job to actually endorsed groups couldn't endorsed, that any was I'm curious coalition the I groups. there that that groups pass. membership in were beautiful that amazing phenomona. get quite groups positive steps. the time. would many other were it '73 the stood. didn't it an how you worked the at for than We help the from much so of all just unfortunate been -- took you neglected was learned You where question there W: learn. ended know, lobbying. of I was up endorsing it. they did and just a with thrilled so them. W: And were in people the Junior league who it W: Sandy Ellsworth and what's her only F The W: Polly, it good. Coalition, phone working for effective. very F: the were was several name yes. I It very times, but really know was an I is name? talked can't think Polly Schmidt. effective -30- I group. of with her her name. on F: Did a in of F: And said, job of No, groups Urn W: Did right, it. on they had just that time. Dottie Brockbank, of doing the box beautiful a hope There was no thinking, I"m still instance, for you, right. inside super. a her. to the were up they had and Yes, I've been set House, Yes they were but Women's the -- and people iisten and Did confused. like they in saying that? do Or think, as process groups group our individual jQn a after go Legislative Council? who is the Junior it, endorsed for the ERA? League, out came Was you did have publically there a lot go of on an basis? like soon of than they back away from that and let it the Women's they as coalition: But when the group these it groups itself members of was their through that late, join endorses Legislative Council did State went determining the some other ever, women's some W: by was hum. F: I votes any little bit They the there message "support ERA", that's in rooms about little lobbying. change to No. legislator, makes which Day, They had prepared little vote. League people a Valentine's on -- every something heard they had that for immediately name had I the committee the Junior of whose W: goodies of one lot F: their about little bit before boxes W: hear you they but the the group organizational for it. They joined they joined. coalition, ERA, .•. -31- the were ? or does does that that mean mean that F: Oh, that W: Oh, it F: I had to W: I was confused F: No, that ERA and to W: You had a F: Yes, does. Yes. F: But we Board did get to That's of Church other or Every church I have of the It's that we several who Christian interesting not that we where expect wouldn't against ERA, was that against from and was were it the for or it, Baptist here. taken .•.. ERA, country about and the majority endorsed. from Mormons like who being -32- the and ERA only Mormon true not their church know, the got reports were been was the the was you around have Georgia and who the, that But ERA has there endorsed there South Carolina Utah contacted organizations that you in about churches state national positions for have publically the part of clippings coalition. the to there groups that out churches. Church things states, the on conference churches amazed some ERA them the speaking in And, of one join did never of lot a were encourage were was rejection either there support organizations? of kinds those to coalition. the to of number that ERA. organization voted delegates And the position. their that large that group endorses that. about end Church. F: a send organizations W: see. the support. church I means right. toward W: take their that means were our in other North national states Carolina and actively working influential. W: there Yes, was Mormons in F: Right. The W: Which I F: Those same wasn't I wanted Do see. against F: I you did may be this of a little of because what on further against it vote particular speculate that • investigate it suggesting paper time last it Church, but the editorial. Church the too. has Church Mormon ERA? really think and senators the influential. very senators so because were to five though, too, W: Nevada five in article an is there a choice, will they do fear feeling that women, be in the that it lust makes not paranoid fear, the breakdown if and home, of they the are is there family, given such the a really sad. me (laughter) W: That think. if It's it that Well, W: I F: You was to see, Mormon fear a of the breakdown additional the . . the I'm and unknown of the insight home. I that or to suspicion the just wondered any talking and you hear to go Ruth University's the Funk from the LDS Church .? Conference. not Church Did -- Conference abou t went people whom I've interviewed what most reasoning. heard I Women's talk be any additional F: the would had you be to seems did not hear her talk. really well acquainted with what the says about I about how the But women. word -33- of God in her comes speech, to the she man and it is passed equal not have W: I F: Well, also I a whole a Church to the onto chapter think the think on that. Church saying fell was I and man, on difficult mother W: and a know, they don't things. in are, really woman a older of lot think, I want fact, to the on urbanization of reality the pedestal that was a period was a certain category of human being where fill the away from lag, and time of role. I that think now, a the is also leadership of the Mormon reasonable Right. dialogue a day before in survey statistics people them on University The did makes the on that were Salt vote pro and ERA it woman East male, of and - had have and of and to moved a -- time between active the for them get to issues. Communication Department County. -34 There pedestal, she are on East. culture a a women were cities difficult Utah's that the a really kinds ERA in very, you -- that on Coast It they down themselves and was Church very ERA, it significant time lag very these con classified for a Lake on culture there's and there membership which of when the find women the the study. anything besides, as accept basic and what after the F: editorial a is woman a whole a really It's a sense helpmate and the princess and the other They view to that there's ears, conservative legislators who very in and woman, was as as the out carne the their broke far just as active lowest religion LDS of were all and 36% the a categories, that W: F: did would be about I it, was but is to She amazing. so interesting has really .•. The polls She tape. on a talk person to strong feeling iust very articulate. articulate, very get her LDS LDS suggest the kind of defeat that or Another sure. she's was active of 36% even Beth Jarman. and category of non-active a what indicate for like would This not That's No. to W: it. for really there higher for, was Being but did a nice job, I thought. F: She W: I did. thought about so She did a you all did. Isn't it that. F: that Well, in I, and we amazing and how yet still being knew, all and the think I coalition that have been the good win, that guys but all of us so you their opposition the then the happen, fact prepared and expressing well articulately, of good job. very . . that the commented proponents material so did such a were some acclimated they thought knew see us poor job • there so of many Steve some to people believe in that miracle would Holbrook said it really right. W: He F: But is and did. people who work the reading clerk, listened session at said to every that she the and legislature like Gina Ricke who speech was was that there was in said absolutely amazed -35- every all at who session during the the level of rhetoric the and themselves, aren't who realize W: It was F: Well discouraged. is campaign can't got W:e I the have and that think but don't for did I me. on? goes ordinary than feel, that on and have I just I certain way or any light on this any all, at Smith her own clilppings, wondered if than other other you've -- made? Belle and Church's was significant of? speech the other Spafford's peech about statement opinion of any you -- whether know, from couse, the publication other out. F: I can't think W: I would like W: time times. of any shed Barbara speech and a articles any Smith's have I that think can editorial in acted speeches that Barbara the who of those I better People that. really what anything else, you Smith's have said the all lot a legislators the people that much was there Barbara came sound Is publications newspapers, F: it person or articles, I from legislature the stuPid they Well, now event F: other (laughter) day. W: of disillusioning experience a hum. Urn coming was lot a at up how know, you that of to any. see clippings of, don't have was the best You do n' t? the the national press articles that you though. Washington Post, however. one. -36- I think that F: That you either was can W: Well, F: We I editorial W: And I can contacted am "hot The people W: dogs" that this that would be is other kind of at music and a of the vote, he interesting the Church reporter was in carried the oppoosition the ball much were in evidence at the And know I don't other for time so oriented got to be conspiracy as it and the I Capitol, how wonder head I were. of me. Lake, us. know not was group. if this least, at Nona interesting consideration very she this Salt didn't I this so as to time the again church how kind of that group. very wonder I Some It's their him, today, were family day really interested in knowing and the -- that. out, came that before F: see that contact because made we the or ... if and day before the to Dyer Her me. there was group. might try to in terv iew her. F: I don't She's used W: Oh F: I to W: I worked to is , know, but she in for be her, but the one one of very it like at rational very Washington, for D.C. a soundinq long time. woman. She right? tha t be a ERA. just couldn't would is would be to whom the afford spend to interesting interview her, and said clever. -37- to up as that there talking know. think. I Polly Schmidt had meetings time my an she I think she might opposition speaker was politically F: No. W: Is F: No. W: Oh, F: Urn W: And right: that had She is she that I W: All F: I she as know. right, think being ended up being as her. I don't know. ... that should "a summed for Well, add? to Quinton Cannon's little' they what I were going could W: Oh, is that and emo t io nal saying, "we're all against Equal hear audible some groans in my His right? the galleries speech was particularly colorful . it time and he has totally beyond his view of the world to view And the Literally, head and last was having worthwhile One that representative. That's on vote side. F: me a really think vote to not " you our Right. you mention we're but want (laughter) well so Equal Rights, Rights. on up to against Equal Rights is vote against Equal Rights." that talked never anything there you whe that was. have I is that statement W: as was? quite surprised was don't F: F: off carne hum. influential W: she that Wilcox. Irma who that said She thoughts, when I I just, went too serious up oh to . revealing gesture. -38- -- thoughts. talk to him (laughter) a it's woman He about as patted ERA. That's F: the view, have been thing. his get to get elected and meetings today." talk (laughter) F: Yes. Oh, It's occurred. this that were There time realized the LDS represented was were and at there all did who s ta t going were going in lay to two were the want ionary to to view for coalition the organizations the had drop out and And we we should of lot a LDS of the die -- just and their name meeting a do. the in fact, coalition, if they what haa they group had State If we organizations which have that events whatever of important. coalition ahead go go. of obviously then . other All and look you political situation in the the down to crisis of decide what to of out. carne Church's very way think coalition the that people long a those ERA into go And of for noh, say, same of any was would right?" that to day afterwards . there's and would the that. as she say she the business was a hard could I done about as To and is members -- County, really hard in just yes editorial would have harder. people was older, but thoughts some and what about W: after nOh, is he he worked -- Davis in and has she elected men committee how on know you age, same Beth Jarman Commenting nice and were had to been active in name only from our . W: At that time? F: At that time. But I'm surprised they -39 - ever do not joined removed going joined in the first place. auxiliary, and and had they it, W: No. of not No, opposite. people W: Yes. F: And help, W: I think I think it's F: Urn in to about worked be so so into of much more of the to forced slow, very slow. Well, that was we and went were the of going State the to you one -40- against will it's lose. it went or work. offers in the disadvantage. think I That not was to ... felt be consolation whether Church, everywhere skiing our Mormon to and changes. make to the willing coalition the years, just Particularly angry. much many be and I it repercussions out ERA. fact, this Church people think, experience fact, worked in in issue an done. it educating people or making of knew we were organizations ways lot a Right. that There they in and came for it will going Society were didn't, In were angry the that hum. time so Church Mormon all. at that so Gamma it upset when most other be to was •... donations the were in heart meetings. the Church, to had Kappa any the all writing People were to that group coalition the Lake Jaycee Salt Delta was come anyway behind your effects F: but doing whaever and that So other the the was really think their really not dropped out, adamantly The of members some them don't I begin with. to of One it all we people were day the week before the were was making that the some talking and I got the to top of the ski lift, standing talking W: You Right. W: Yes, certainly it added roles, material business when certain F: Right. W: So, chapters fact, would thought someone really Right. scoop had I in I thought magazine article that with it became on this reader's my I attitude are say, about about I was women my made and own the such fear that an issue. subject, you I know, market. writing just for more get a of women (laughter) stricken would As me. like up because it has two happily going blew was me for Mormon my book. else think do thing think I someone I F: in this the know, you here get away from it. to working along researching and women's and (laughter) ERA. probably trying were F: about an benefit article, a than anything for else. think W: I F: Because it. should W: I F: The I really and was maybe bring my thoughts an ••. enough with the wish I I you coalition together could to about have been feel ..•• have been. growth of togetherness feeling W: could I There involved should. you of and closeness and the real sisterhood. should didn't have been. contact anyone Somehow just -41- I was because never I'm contacted, in my sort of phasing my J and so the time F: Yes. W: So should I F: Well, W: I know I called my hurt, Yes, friend, heard efforts that that have But I the coalition know I how did because Mormon they knew women involved, they invited was me to We just didn't organized, what and kind of great of a have kept thinking leader, but in with in the Junior of mine who those, was it and You who League subject of meetings within to out might. I friends ad. seek not group, a of third a really did I calls more done have major were the was happened ads had really ERA. in were the League and turned out I iust commitments. time. Carol I'm interested couldn't because of other F: I some corne we should we close they had for out supportive so said two too, but from people just -- and I am and Those myself. on calls some I sign mothers for to active. be to writing society drop a on people like that. of is, but unless you're it get put yet Reddish, forth it and much. so and work work get sometimes? to. lot a me to really very active. (laughter), to myself have it, Joan put we people saying W: missed nobody wanted we just of out have been we design know how you You of really wanted I and call I so You right. kind know, you And being. was that F: forth. Oh, I society period. awhile, for own of out We poor a I -- most slow in getting leader, to be were don't everybody -42- think else I honest. was was that working. And I was housewife a time of this I it, toward chairmanship, and could I and and I anything. do to do anything because to do it, was we didn't I so kind the individuals contact W: Well, it's F: Well, we was of a needed to be The things just individuals to done have iust we -- with deal get to consequently, so could I should we and started give did YWCA the to didn't overwhelming thing. kind earlier. But members be to mailing of all really ask anybody iust doing everything, get organized right. do to doing official the couldn't I was really didn't have th authority I inviting organizations and without done the I and do to period a into of backed trying and for time some doing membership be to put kind I so was needed to could I doing that was see authority and strongly started office us and space a lot that was a major step. W: Oh, they did? F: And we had one just needed That was that I Utah, organized but some staff money, who and that out mention was of a Utah that we perfectly willing know to how to about legislature. -43- they other one effort FOR ERA getting month. group the to in that strong group, a were in and ratification for UTAHNS a strong numerically, every go was working and were make Hinckley intern There was State, a paid him like $50 group called they didn't know they they didn't was only paid staff. our should and paid and world, but the W: Who F: It was is Who F: Jean of that Jay somebody. a coalition W: leader the was leader that? Fowler in Do in Cedar know? you the name can tell you. had local you of the know? you head of Logan and in Ogden and and Do give can Logan and she the was I group? in we utah coalitions in County and in Carbon County City which left uncovered some parts of the State. W: That F: Tooele W: And would there parts of There W: Utah F: Yes. They W: the anti Utah is County I don't What's her Yes. name Well, sometime Georgia W: F: Well, in was "hot groups from tape) varying the about going dogs" were located. said here. Is Georgia that that Peterson right? Phyllis Schlafley at they really liked each other, to Birch nebulous about? type group. Grua California Phyllis Schlafley a she understand to know friends with She went Well, Speculation the Schlafley past and with But, you somewhere the connection F: one Suzanna -- made doesn't it's colitions, where a she says. W: only know invited Phyllis F: ERA questions. (Unable County. the kind of were my State? in was of one Davis County. and were F: have been have ••. some sort of nebulous Society? connection. that. to California -44 - this past summer and she called Georgia, said and says, stop and least that she and that Offices. Church had and most interesting nice to don't 'know if F: I could W: But F: Be speak though. W: Well, I'll F: But, friendly and you will be She did stay overnight, to had this she a is group of in and true or there Yes, she it group hum. W: Urn not, but know. to tell thought I -- be her very sugary, you might I her on -- that or as matter not. You a and friend a fact. of grain she is you know forever gracious, so "you're and you some legislators did have some I know. I to ask her about in on my guess and friend" and I know. this session F: I W: She, know don't know was. that have Richards Schlafley, is a was very of tape and keep my mouth closed. have I'll was the to with Phyll is? F: at know. just put she will could accept everything she says with to salt, if Georgia would speak prepared and her. to did she she Peterson Phyllis Schlafley know would be It her legislators took it would be W: Georgia what asked some she don't I is going through was Georgia she speculation some this night, maybe two, neighbors in W: least her. see one at that. there. effective -45- speaker. how big a F: Oh, yes. W: Yes she F: There End of Oh, is, was a yes, I'll and have resolution so to is Georgia. admit passed. tape -46- that.