Anna Taylor Oral History Interview

Oral history interview of Anna Taylor by Marilyn Warenski about status of women in Mormon culture.

UTAH INTERVIEWEE: INTERVIEWER: DATE: SUBJECT: TRANSCRIBER: DATE: MW: AT: STATE HISTORICAL SOCIETY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Taylor Marilyn Warenski September 22, 1980 Anna Status of Christine June 29, women Gustin 1988 in the Mormon culture This is an interview with Anna Taylor on the subject of the status of women in the Mormon culture. We are at my house 4135 Matthew Way, Salt Lake City, Utah. The date is September 22, 1980. Anna, why don't we start out by having you tell about your life, background, family etc. I was born in Provo, Utah, in 1909. My parents were very good members of the Church. My father, A. o. Smoot, was a grandson of one of the prominent early stake presidents and business leaders of Utah Co. Father was a sincere Believer in Mormonism, having served a mission for the Mormon Church. Mother was a typical Mormon woman, brought up to believe that a submissive wife was the kind compatible with Mormon doctrine. She was very supportive of Father, even though there were times when she probably felt left out of his political activities. He was a prominent man in the He was much away from community, very active in politics. We were brought up home, so she held the family together. not to question our religion, although, when I think about it, that wasn't necessarily true because we had many good discussions with Father over our questions and doubts. I went to school at Brigham Young University. There was never any question from the beginning but that I would get a Women were supposed to be degree, graduate, and teach. able to support themselves. There was also never any doubt but that I would get married in the Temple and have children under the covenant. In high school all of us children attended seminary and were steeped in Mormon doctrine which we would discuss when we came home. I never questioned it at the time. My first doubts probably occurred when I was a college sophomore. I met a young graduate student who had been brought up in an orthodox Mormon family but who had serious questions about the He laughed at the whole idea of Mormonism and the Church. Mormon garments. At first I fiercely defended the Church. As I thought about it, however, much of what he said appealed to me and I began to believe in his point of view. It took many years, however, for me to realize that Mormonism was not what I really wanted. At thirty-three, I married a man outside of the Church. We lived in Seattle for three years and then moved to Provo, where I resumed my At the time, if anybody had told me that I was teaching. going to teach for thirty-four years, I would have been Now I realize that one tempted to do something desperate. of the finest things that has happened to me is the fact did for that long. During that time I learned had to grow to keep up with my students. great-a8al. What did you teach? I taught English at Provo High School for the biggest part I eventually taught in the the advanced of that time. placement program, which was a real challenge because I had to keep ahead of the students. I read a great deal of I I and a learned In the lot. philosophy, studied, doubts about the Church continued to grow. meantime, my Much of my reading, which did not include church books, was in the field of philosophy and religion. A lot of this reading had to do with new age books, with psychic discoveries, with meditation, with different philosophical I came to believe concepts, and with oriental religions. that no one religion or church has all the answers. That is where you find me at the moment. It took me forty years to reach a place where I could say, "I no longer believe in what the Church teaches. I must please myself." However, I am proud of what the Mormon people have contributed; I am proud of my background; but I don't believe their doctrine. You are still a member of the Church? I have never officially been excommunicated, nor have I asked to be. Of course, I don't know whether this is or not. hypocrisy My neighbors, most of them, know that I'm inactive. At the same They know I don't go to church. time I still pay fast offerings and welcome the Relief Society teachers when they come to call. There are many people who do that for logical reasons. Sure, and I suppose there were many years when I didn't dare admit to my folks, least of all to myself, that I no Intellectually I had cut longer believed in Mormonism. but that was it. myself off, You still value your heritage and that link? I value their respect, and I don't want to lose Yes, I do. that I teach I a ---- MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: it. Your mother's name Phebe Campbell. was? I interviewed your sister Fern, but I didn't ask Tell me. her this question. What was the relationship of your father to Senator Smoot? Was he part of your family? The original A. o. Smoot came to Salt Yes, that's right. Lake in September of 1847. He led the third company of His oldest son was my pioneers into the valley. grandfather, and Reed Smoot the Senator was his half-brother. Great grandfather had five wives. My great grandmother was the fourth wife; Reed's mother was the In So my grandfather and Reed were half-brothers. fifth. family there was always a split as far as politics was concerned. My father was chairman of the democratic party in Utah County for years. He was post master in Provo for a number of years, after which his brother Isaac Albert became post master in Salt Lake. Uncle Bert and Father were active whereas the members of Uncle Reed's democrats, our family were democrats staunch encouraged Maybe being active I know Father liberal thinking. republicans. our -2- He was more inclined to question than Mother was. did. She accepted things at face value. Fern and I were the readers in the family. this started us on our way Perhaps to MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AS: MW: AT: apostacy. think it brothers? is interesting that you and Fern married Where did you meet? Fern met her husband first when he was in Provo selling It was in the early years of the She roofing. depression. corresponded with him for two years, and then both of us went to the University of Washington to summer school. She contacted Jim, and he introduced me to his brother Walt. After you were married you lived in Seattle? We both lived there for three years and then came back to Provo. Walt and I came first; then Jim and Fern followed. had been at sea part of his life and always had husband My the idea that one could be independent on five acres, so in 1945 we moved to Utah and bought a chicken farm. We asked Fern and Jim if they would like to join us and they did. Of course, we found that we were not adapted to chicken The men ended up working at the steel plant; Fern farming. and I went back to teaching. I have one boy, who was born in 1945. He is living in this area. I brought him up as a Mormon and had him baptized into the Church. I think he realized that my heart wasn't in it, even though I went back to church and taught in Junior Sunday School for his He never became a good member. benefit. As a matter of fact, he has had his name removed from the rolls. What is your son's name? He's working in Orem. He's been Richard Smoot Taylor. and That's where we are then remarried. married, divorced, I guess Fern told you About this woman's thing. now. about how we became involved. My first introduction to the Karen was one woman's movement was through Karen Shepherd. of my students. I rediscovered her when I went to a She was there and sought me political meeting in Orem. When she started to work for Wayne Owens' election out. for the Senate, she recruited me to work in her office. Karen had just joined a woman's group in Salt Lake, even She commuted to Salt Lake to be though she lived in Orem. with this particular group. Apparently Karen was one of the leaders in women's Isn't that right? political causes. she was. She Leeann tried to start a group in Provo. Yes, an the at feminist Provo in lived Walker, early leader, time, but the group had a hard time getting off the I know there were several of us who went to the ground. There weren't meetings, but they just didn't take hold. There were maybe fewer than ten who were enough of us. interested in coming out. That's interesting. The group here in Salt Lake City is quite a vital, active group. I don't think our group in Provo succeeded until after the IWY conference when we got women together who were angry; Karen was instrumental in they made the difference. I getting a class started in Springville. -3- Brenda Hancock the class, which was an introduction to the meaning I had never read Betty Freidan or feminism. any of the other advocates of feminism until that time, and the experience was a revelation. You hadn't thought a lot about the subject? So much of what I have read since No, I really hadn't. I can't see how anybody could be seems so true; against taught of MW: AT: equality of the sexes. Of course, we thought for a long time that the ERA was going to pass. MW: Seems like it. AT: We went to the legislature and lobbied for it, but at the time we were lobbying for it, a group of women from southern Utah called the Hot Dogs was lobbying against it. MW: This was in 1973? AT: Yes. At that time we really had hopes that the people in Utah would pass it, but the legislature didn't. Since then it's been downhill. MW: There was every reason to believe that from the beginning it would have a difficult time here. At that time, in had not the Church made official 1973, any pronouncement It became known that the Mormon Church had against it. been an opponent of the ERA rather early. It really put a lot of women in conflict, as you know. You are obviously still a supporter of the ERA? AT: Oh, very much so. I can't help but think that the Mormons are on the wrong side of history, and that the time will the proposal will pass. come when It may not be in my In fact, it probably won't, judging from the way time. In the twenty-first century, it may get things look now. there. MW: Why do you think the Mormon Church leadership took a stand against the ERA? AT: Because of the conservative right wing trend of its I have no doubt that the edict against ERA leaders. came from Ezra Taft Benson. These men are living probably in the nineteenth century or earlier. They are old. MW: You think it has more to do with political conservatism than anything else? AT: Don't you? MW: I would say so. There are all kinds of speculations about the opinions that exist inside the circle. AT: The swaying to the right in the last few years has been rather frightening to me. In Utah politics there has been democratic and always republican party, but in Utah 90 now I would guess percent of the people are voting In republican. my voting district, where I was a judge of the elections this year, there were five democratic votes out of fifty. MW: That was in the primary elections? AT: That was in the primary elections. Maybe I'm living in a hot bed of conservatism, I don't know. MW: I think Utah County is one of the most conservative areas in the state, isn't it? AT: I believe it is. It is one of the counties that defeated Wayne Owens, which was rather -4- sad. I wouldn't have to a republican swing. It's simply that the right the is so I suspect that party wing frightening to me. like Ezra Taft Benson and Cleon Skousen have done people their work well and are role models for a lot of our people. You mentioned that you had discovered feminism recently. Let me ask you about your attitude about womanhood. Do you think your Mormon background and your family upbringing had If so, anything to do with your attitude about womanhood? what? One of the things I do remember is my early Probably so. I heard it discussed a objection to polygamy. great deal. My own mother said she could not have lived it, even if she had been called upon to do so. The more I read Church history and found out what polygamy had done to a lot of Mormon women, the more I thought there was something wrong with it. The biggest doubt that I had in my mind about the to Church, begin with, was its attitude towards women and the fact that it had used women so completely in the early Wives had no say about whether there was going to be days. polygamy or not. Beautiful, brave women like Emma Smith were an fighting uphill battle. Reading about their personal lives, I realized that while the wives were backing their busbands publicly, privately they were suffering untold misery. Also, don't you think that Mormon women were forced to be independent? The men were away so much of the time while the women were supporting their families. The men were not supporting them; they couldn't. Women had to be strong. The history bares out that that's what happened. Women supported polygamy, but it was not a happy situation for many of them. This is the paradox; the wives were often independent women. It really is an amazing story for that reason. Yes, it really is, when you look at strong people like Annie Tanner, who raised her family virtually alone. I remember my great aunt Olive. I saw letters that she exchanged with her husband, who was on a mission to He was courting wife number two through the Virginia. letters he wrote to wife number one. There was such pain and poignancy in her replies that I couldn't help but realize what she was going through. Publicly, however, she was a supporter of polygamy, since her father was a What women said publicly and what they felt polygamist. were two different things. privately Reading history and what women's realizing personal feelings were, you learn a deal. Sometimes I think the Mormons have educated great many of their people out of the Church They've encouraged their members to become educated, and when they do, they leave? Don't you think they encourage women to think when they send them to college? Yes, Mormons have encouraged their people to become educated. I think this is why a lot of them are having very painful objected of MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: conflicts. Right now, for example, -5- one of the big MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: with the teaching of evolution in the to deny our children the what evolution entails, then we are going to knowledge turn our backs on much of the scientific world. Many of are having serious conflicts in this area. our teachers Yes, I know that to be the case. Your husband is a scientist, so has he had problems? My children have had encounters with teachers over that subject in the public junior high schools. My son took one of Cleon Skousen's religion classes at the He told his students that the earth is only six BYU. He has a strange explanation about thousand years old. what the anthropologists and geologists are finding out. Do you find that the traditions and the lifestyles of Mormon women are different from those of women in other conflicts schools. has If of to we do are going places? Very definitely. Take, for instance, the Martha and Mary Women have to be good Marthas in the Mormon concept. Church to keep up with what's expected of them. For example, it is traditional to can hundreds of quarts of fruit every fall and make quilts by the dozen. If one does not do this, she is not accomplishing what she should as a I did not find this to be the case when I was The women I knew were not concerned in Seattle. with such things. They didn't understand the necessity of putting away a hundred quarts of peaches? It's considered such a virtue in Mormondom for a woman to do all of these things. If she doesn't, she feels quilt-ridden. Personally I managed to get rid of my guilt When my son was three years old, I feelings quite early. I dressed and fed him each morning, went back to teaching. took him to the baby-sitter's, and picked him up after The housework--cooking, cleaning, washing, school. I ironing, and shopping--I worked in as best I could. discovered that I could buy fresh fruit in the markets;.I did not have to put up hundreds of quarts of fruit every I have never bothered about canning since. I know I fall. can live without it. I made choices, and canning wasn't of them. one There are some expectations in the culture, you feel? Of course, putting away a two or three years' Oh, yes. of food is one of them. I have managed to talk supply I have gone through the myself out of that too. But doing such quilt-making process, having made several. things is not a burden that I carry around. Why do you think that kind of thing became so prevalent in the Mormon culture as opposed to other cultures? Another It was preached from the pulpit, for one thing. thing I find disturbing is the Mormon stand against birth I never heard the word birth control as I was control. I know, however, that it was being practiced, growing up. come There are now many old having through the depression. men who are from the pulpit birth control preaching against woman. living MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: who were probably practicing -6- it in their youth. They did not MW: have from AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: the number of children that young Mormon women are They had families of three and four and that having today. was it. Perhaps economics had something to do with their I look at some of these women who are decision. having a child every year, regardless of what child-bearing is doing to their health, and I am appalled. Do you think the direction for having a large family comes the Church? I don't think so many young women would be Definitely. bearing children every year if they weren't told to do so. Sometimes it's peer pressure at work. The pressure starts from the church authorities, transfers itself to the young I read some letters women, and they pressure each other. that were printed in a recent Colorado issue of Exponent II. Page after page of these letters reflected the pain felt by Mormon women who were suffering either because they were not having a child every year of because they had too to care for This situation is adequately. many something that has come about during the last fifteen or twenty years. Do you feel that some of the homemaking traditions extend from early times, but the emphasis on large families and that sort of thing is greater now than it was? Within the last ten to twenty years, I would say. I don't know exactly when it started or who started it. Who did start preaching against birth control? It does seem to vary with the various prophets. It is something I didn't hear when I was growing up. I held all the church positions that women hold, except for I was on the Stake that of Relief Society president. School and the Stake Mutual board Board, and I Sunday I was able to teach. time School from the taught Sunday I became rebellious because I was That was another thing. teaching every day of the week and then was expected to When teach the same age group and the same kids on Sunday. refused to do so, the Bishop was quite disturbed, as was One simply did not turn down a calling. That mother. was probably the beginning of my rebellion. About how old were you when you began to withdraw from activity in the Church? I was around thirty, even though I had experienced doubts in my twenties. I graduated from college when I was and nineteen, my doubts began after I started to teach. Are there any other characteristics that you can think of I my MW: AT: MW: being peculiar to Mormon women? Is this peculiar Well, they are subservient to authority. to Mormon women or to women everywhere? I I'm not sure. was just reading your epilogue to Patriarchs and Politics. as AT: MW: AT: You mentioned that the Catholic women were allowed to talk about the possibility that women might hold the priesthood eventually, but Mormon women are not encouraged to think this way at all. It's kind of unmentionable. You just don't discuss such a possibility. I'm not sure Mormon women are encouraged to be intellectuals. In fact, I've been told that one can read -7- too much. MW: mentioned but school AT: in my book that in some ways the culture is and anti-intellectual at the same time. pro-education That's true because Mormons do encourage people to go to I .•. Also, you're supposed to read anything outside of the is appalling to go into the church to see the overwhelming amount of materials, books, that have to do exclusively with not church books. bookstores and both tapes and Mormons. It of priesthood for women, what do you think the is for Mormon women to get the priesthood? There the Episcopal Church and certainly in the are women in liberal parts of other churches who are standing up for The nuns in the Catholic Church aren't making much it. progress, but they are actively seeking change AT: I'm afraid that for the women of the Mormon Church there Those who find themselves will never be any priesthood. out of sorts with Mormon doctrine will have to find what I see no change in the they're looking for elsewhere. For one thing, isn't patriarchy fundamental to future. their beliefs? It will be interesting to see how the MW: It seems to be. Church will handle the problem in today's society, where Do you know patriarchy in every field is being questioned. of any Mormon women who are seeking and would like to hold the priesthood or who have actively sought such a role? AT: No. Do you? I just MW: It is difficult for a change to take place openly. wondered. AT: I have never heard of anyone who even suggested that it would be possible. Of course, therein lies the basic I don't suppose women could ever be equal in a conflict. MW: Speaking outlook MW: patriarchal church. These patriarchal beliefs AT: feminism. Don't the MW: Well, AT: MW: AT: MW: seem to be unacceptable to have the same problem? Judaism now allows women in their training The conservative Jewish group are in the process program. I think of considering women for Rabbinical training. there is some resistance. Of course, orthodox Jewish people will continue to maintain the male rabbinical system. How is it that the Quakers are so advanced in their ideas about women ministers and women being on an equal footing with men? It's interesting that some people believed from the beginning it's not constructive to have a woman be part of Take the Mormon religion. the system. The notion of women the in more complex much is Mormonism getting priesthood than in other churches because such a change would involve all women, since all males hold the priesthood, not just those in leadership positions. Some have to be subservient. I suppose that would cancel the entire structure. Still, priesthood is being sought by women in most churches in Jews reformed America except for the orthodox. -8- AT: MW: AT: MW: How far back does one have to go to find a matriarchy? Is there any such thing as an androgynous society? I'm not really sure because it seems to me that anthropologists and archeologists disagree. I have read about some of the eastern and middle eastern I think the Greeks had matriarchal pockets, yet religions. the Greeks as a whole were not good to their women. In spite of all that's gone on in the past, this decade has made AT: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: changes overcome for women. It the makes one think that we much better off than the women in still wearing veils, though they I can't understand this. debased. are so who are the Mormon being MW: many prejudices that have existed all these thousands of years. Maybe that's naive. I remember a teacher at one time saying that the advancement of a civilization could be judged by the way I do think there is hope for some its women were treated. of our countries because much progress is being made. We might women saying they're the Arab countries claim they are not It must be like not being discriminated is a parallel between Don't you think there against. Mormon women and Moslem women? That's been suggested before. There's conclusion. One day on television I passionately defending time understanding why. do the same thing. some logic to such a heard a Moslem princess their views on women. I had a hard I do know that Mormon women will There seems to be little interest among the orthodox women in the Mormon Church to change their roles, but there are many women in conflict today because of the Church's stand. Certainly the ERA has brought toe conflict into focus and that brings me to my next question. How did you the Johnson do case? How about her? feel perceive Sonja you I love Sonja, and I think she has done the women of the United States a great service in speaking out as she has against a church that has been so militant in opposing women's rights. The one thing I don't understand about Sonja is her distress about leaving the Church. Philosophically she must not believe many of the things it stands for. Because she is so committed to equal rights for women? When you begin to investigate the history of the Yes. Church and realize what has happened to its women, you If begin to doubt the validity of the whole institution. hasn't will she its doctrines Sonja questioned before, It won't take her fifty years, as it did me, to say soon. that she is not a believer. Do you feel the Church had any justification to excommunicate her? From their point of view, I don't see how they could not. Their most fundamental belief is that you are not supposed to question authority. This is exactly what Sonja was She must have expected excommunication, and she got doing. what she expected. How do you feel about it? -9- MW: I think it is many of your views. incongruent for who has committed herself to equal rights for women to remain in a church that denounces them. I respect Sonja for her contribution to America because I think until this time people did not realize the extent of the political power of the Mormon Church. I think you're right. I believe it was a very useful political situation. I on the other that the Church has done a think, hand, disservice to itself. The excommunications has been a public relations problem for them. I think so too, just as with the black I believe problem. the ERA issue cuts much deeper than the question of the blacks' holding the priesthood. There is a more fundamental difference. How do you believe the women of the Church have responded to Sonja? How do Mormon women feel about her? The ones I have talked to don't like her at all--I mean the committed Mormon women. The Mormons for ERA, the women who are and the women who are ex-Mormons are one jack Mormons, hundred percent in sympathy with her. I'm thinking now of one of my freinds whom I recently had lunch with. She herself is a liberal and probably regards herself as a She has come back from her stay in Chicago to feminist. She has divorced her first husband, rejoin Mormon society. remarried, and is now trying to devote herself to a Mormon When the name of Sonja came up, she asked how I family. felt about her. "I like her," I replied, and she said, "That's where we part company." So many people can't stand her. Sonja has the effect of polarizing? I don't mention Sonja's name in a Oh, definitely. group of devoted Mormon women. I don't really feel comfortable with devoted Mormons or with one hundred percenters. They belong to a closed society that I don't feel comfortable with any more. When I was judge of elections, I sat all The ERA was mentioned day with two lively Mormon women. once, and I could see immediately that the antagonism was too great. The ERA is unquestionably an emotional issue in Utah. I have been interested in your Alice Louise Reynolds group. In my project on the status of women in the Mormon culture, I interview many women. It wasn't until 1979 that I discovered you women were You seem to organized in Provo. have an interesting group. Would you care to comment? It is one of the most loosely organized groups I've ever seen. We don't have a president or vice-president or I share someone AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: secretary. We just responsibilities. every month and those who we think will be interested in hearing our Did Fern Tell you how it topic. began? She did. There were fourteen of us. We met at my house to begin with. It was a group who had assembled to offer Jan Tyler our love and for what had at the IWY sympathy invite MW: AT: sort of pass around the We call a group of women happened -10- This group was composed People were hurting. both older and younger women. It included Algie Ballif, her sister Thelma Weight, Fern and I, and Rachel Heninger. Rachel, by the way, belongs to the Grant and Cannon families, but years ago she decided to give up her affiliation with the church. There were several women connected with BYU. Margaret Woodward and Loneta Murphy wives of BYU professors. are Reba Keel, Karen Lynn, and Elouise Bell are teachers on campus. Wanda Scott, formerly office manager for Wayne Owens and then Gunn McKay, teaches at Provo High, Helen Stark is a prominent writer and poet in the Church. MW: Were they all originally in the group? AT: All of them except for Eloise Bell. Florence Mitchell is She has turned in her resignation to the in my age group. Church because of their stand on women, though there are The Forum represents a cross other differences as well. There have been some young people on campus who section. have come to our meetings at times. They are few and far have come because however; they between, they have probably found a sympathetic response to their needs. It seems to be the only group of its MW: It's interesting. kind in Utah--Mormons who have organized in support of women's issues. AT: Yes. Now I have to say, these women are not all Mormons. Some are very devoted members however, who are-trying hard to stay in the Church and reconcile their beliefs with what is happening. These are the ones who have been in the For those of us who have decided that we paid. convention. of greatest no longer go along with Mormon philosophy, the battle We are pretty much at peace with ourselves. is over. So you really think of yourselves as just women interested in women's issues and not necessarily Mormons interested in can MW: issues? The only reason we're interested in the Mormons for ERA is that here in Utah the Mormons have taken such an active part in opposing everything that we believe in. Does your group affiliate very closely with the Mormons for ERA? No. That didn't really get off the ground until after Sonja's women's AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: Right. excommunication? There are several women who have joined the Mormons Right. for ERA, but that certainly does not include the majority of the group. What we have done is to call women in the A Catholic woman community. Many of them are non-Mormons. attends. Another one who comes to the meetings is a member of the Community Church; she is also active in the League of Women Voters. There are several others who have never been Mormons but who are good friends of Algie Ballif. Algie's roots are in the Church, as are those of many others who might be called intellectuals. Many of these are finding the conflict painful. daren't open their They mouths in other groups. So you have a large variety of opinions represented in your group? -11- AT: Forum started with fourteen but continued to Members said, "We know this person would like to to come," so every woman come and that person would like has reached out to those who might be interested, and so we The Yes. expand. We usually have enlarged our calling list. sixty women who attend our meetings. have MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: to It's As I very political campaigns? We were steeped I've been an active democrat all my life. Politics and religion were our in politics in our home. favorite topics of discussion? Part of your lives? I participated in campaigns but Yes, part of our lives. I have made candidate or an active leader. never as a served as a out county literature, telephone calls, passed and been an election held and state delegate, judge, That's the type of political elections in my home. taken I'm not really a public I have part in. activity I've from retired Since teaching, I don't join person. in this group. I interested course am Of clubs. many So in your retirement, you get a lot of time to read? Yes, fortunately. My greatest hobby is reading. Your husband's name is? Walter G. Taylor. Is there anything you want to add about your life, about your attitudes about women, or the Mormon Church? As I I've pretty well covered what I think about them. Mormon have said, I am proud of my Mormon ancestors. My great grandmother was active in women's suffrage in early Utah history. She was with the group who attended suffrage when Susan B. Anthony came to campaign in Utah. meetings Susan B. Susan B. What was Her name MW: women's That's AT: Yes. AT: fifty nice group. it's quite fluid. said, Membership varies from time is no there official and roster. to time, In addition to participating in the A. L. R. Forum and going to its meetings, what other kinds of activities do you engage in? Chiefly that's what we do. You said you've been active in What do you do yourself? a AT: MW: AT: MW: from Anthony? Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton. your grandmother's name? was Electa Wood Bullock. She was a leader activities in the early days of Provo. quite in heritage. a valuable contribution to a beautiful afford to brag about what the early Mormons accomplished. I admire Brigham Young for the great colonizer that he was. He was a motivated leader. He said Yes, but I can also go along with Bernard DeVoto. that Brigham Young was probably the greatest colonizer in I think American history, but he was also a scoundrel. I've read too much Utah history. When you are exposed to She made a Utah can state. both sides of a question, you -12- realize that the Mormons the only ones who were being persecuted. I know you've probably read these same materials. Without making Oh, yes, and it's a fascinating history. any value judgment, I find it absolutely amazing. Just last week Fern took our niece on the Taylor I agree. side to visit some points of interest in Salt Lake. The niece had been staying at my house prior to the trip, and she had picked up some of my books, such as Sam Taylor's As Nightfall at Nauvoo and Maurine Whipple's Giant Joshua. a result, she was less than enthusiastic about the The niece's negative remarks disturbed Fern, who Mormons. said there was a lump in her own throat when the choir sang I feel the same kind of emotion "Come, Come, Ye Saints." The pioneers were beautiful people who when I hear it. weren't MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: MW: AT: suffered a lot. It's an interesting history and an interesting heritage. Fern and I are fourth generation Mormons. Of the first cousins belonging to our generation, we estimate that maybe half of them are Mormon dissidents. This tells us that many of those who are brought up in the Church are not staying. Do you think that's unusual? I was surprised don't know. by an article on Mormonism It said that forty published in Rocky Mountain Saints. of Mormon I wonder missionaries become inactive. percent how many blood descendants of early church leaders have done the same thing. If our family is any indication, I would say it is forty to fifty percent. Not that they have officially apostitized. They all add to that vote to make it four million plus. Right, but they feel the way we do about it. It is a divided church now on many issues, that's true. On the political line in particular. I What you I A interested me can't be a good remember he said liberal democrat, Ezra Taft Benson's statement that church member and be a liberal Mormon. that. was I mean. That disturbed many liberal women. Yes. I've always regarded myself as a liberal democrat. I also think of some liberal democrats, real intellectuals, who are still in the I wonder whether they are going Church. to be able to stay. I'm sure we will all be watching to see what evolves. There are a lot of people like J. B. Williams. I wonder what is going to happen to him. How is he going to reconcile his religion and his politics? It's interesting. A lot of people feel a conflict, over this This has been a particularly political line. interview and I it will be a nice sure am very enjoyable addition to the Historical Society files. Thank you. Thank you very much, Marilyn. -13-