Ann Decker Oral History Interview

Oral history interview of Ann Decker by Marilyn Warenski about status of women in Mormon culture.

UTAH STATE HISTORICAL SOCIETY ORAL HI S1DRY PROGRA\1 Mormon Women A DfCKffi Interviewed by Marilyn Warenski on October 3, 1975 UTAH STATE HISIDRlCAL SOCIE1Y 307 West Second South Suite 1000 Sal t Lake City, Utah 84101 ORAL HI STORY PROGRAM UTAH WOMEN'S PROJH:T ThTERVIEWEE : Anne Decker Th"1'ERVI&lER : Marilyn Warenski Monnon Women ThiERVIEW DATE: W: Anne , us D: let's about October 3, 1975 start yourself, by talking a Li ttle your background and bit about you. your education. Tell I was born in Provo, Well, I'm a native Utahn all the way. Utah. My parents are Odessa and Lloyd Cullimore who are I received my early education at still residing in Provo. I went to BYU for what amounted to Provo High School. I did the rest about two years--quarters here and there. of of my work at the Uni versi ty Utah, graduated from the Uni versi ty of Utah in secondary education in Speech and I have returned to the University of Utah to do English. I have probably 35 hours of graduate work graduate work. I've done some work in New York at the University of Utah. Berthoff Acting Studio under Ute City at the Herbert I was a I taught. tell I can you. Oh, what else Hugen. in School teacher at East High Speech. W: In what year did you D: 1957. W: How many years did graduate you from the teach at East University of Utah? High School? DECKfR 2 D: One year. W: Just D: Now I'm one year. Okay. And now you're .... mother of three sons, and I periodically take a the University, and keep my I fingers in acting. try to do something in the way of a play or something at leas once a year. I'm active in the Church, and I hold of Cultural Refinement Teacher in Relief Society at th thlS t ime, I was the Mother Education Leader last year and just moved into this new position. class a at ]o? W: And your husband is D: Ashby W: He is in what business? D: He's Vice President of Portland Cement of Utah. 1" . it. I Ashby. Snow Decker. was Mormon Do you going to ask you about your connection wi th the Church. You've described your current activities. come from a traditional Mormon home? D: Yes, I do. W: Both parents D: They both ful­ parents were active in the Church. filled missions. They met on their missions, and have re mained active in the Church. W: How D: There were brother. W: you say your attitude is about yourself as a woman today? Let me add to that question, so you will know In what way do you think your Mormon what I am getting at. that attitude, if any. affected has background D: Like W: You think it has. D: I think anytime that you've There's no question about it. been reared in a religion and I have a very good feeling I'm glad that I am a woman and would about being a woman. I'm grateful to be a woman at not want it any other way. I think there are a lot of opportunities and of this time. course, I have the good For tune of being married to a man There's no who really treats the woman on an equal basis. difference in a woman and a man as far as their abilities were active in the Mormon Church? Both What large of a family five were children. you? I have three sisters and one would a lot. (Laughter) DFCKfR 3 t hei r pr i vi Leges or anything in hi s eyes. So, I don't have any of that fight. As far as the posi tion my church has put the woman into, that's a little different story. I find myself looking at it and thinking wi th everything that's going on in the country right now- in the world right now regarding women, you would normally think that our religion, the Mormon religion would be a perfect place for the role of women to really be able to function at her best. Number one, it has really been a Church that has encouraged women to take responsibility, to become leaders, to officiate at meetings, to be teachers, you know to really be involved. We're such a work-oriented Church and project-oriented Church, and therefore, with that kind of training from childhood on up, it would seem that that would really be a place to really see 'a functioning per­ son. I don't think that's going to happen for several rea­ sons. Do you want me to go into it? or - W: D: Yes, in minute, but I want to ask you this. You just a You are an ac­ point that interests me. Do you feel that the person by reputation. lormon Church's attitude about women taking respons ibi l i ty and improving themselves and so on has influenced you to achieve, then? No question about I concept see. ment to No be question about to So, then you credi t the Church for the encourage­ beginning, in the continuing? D: it. it. I think the become involved in accomplished, things, to use your talent that we've had from early child­ hood, giving two and a half minute talks on up. There's no question about that. Interestingly enough, however, the Church encourages that to a point, and then it says stop. whol e W: a brought up complished Oh yes. but there is come conflict in their Right. Then to take the idea of going on wi th a really be a perfectionist; oh that's not fair to say that, because the whole Church has worked toward perfectionism, but to really excell beyond that which you can handle along wi th your other roles as a woman, then it's pulled back. career or to W: Would you care to define the way you interpret the Mormon Church stand on women or policy toward women further at this time You mentioned some of their feelings about it. The reason I ask that--you just mentioned her roles. Do the Church think Mormon has some? you D: No question. Church. says most We she is recent statement. There is a type of role of the women of the could go back to yesterday's newspaper that the handmaiden of the Lord. That's been the thing that has come out in the Conference You say now, "What does that say to the women? DFLKfR 4 How does the woman respond?" W: Yes. What does that say to you? D: Well, to me that's a real I think that's a put down. very statement to make women feel second rate, but apparently that isn't the intent, and apparently that will go very well with some women. They'll] ike that. I laugh a tha don't 1 ike that kind of phraseology, and I . I. t hi nk It's a As far as the Church's atti tude put down. toward women, they will not say that woman is second rate, but in fact, she is. Even the woman missionary is an as­ sistant to the male She leads singing and missionary. she's always an auxiliary to the man. Yet, ironically, Marilyn, the thing about it in the Church is that when you watch the humen work in the wards, they really are the ones that are running the wards. They really are the quiet leaders, but they are doing it underneath the Priesthood. But as far as the Church's attitude, it is a secondary at­ ti tude. She doesn't hold the Priesthood. She compliments the man sweet nothing . .. W: The leaders of the Relief Society mention from time to time trat the woman is equal to the man. D: Yes. W: And that Mormon women have always been liberal; that there has always been an atti tude of equalization, liberalization with women in the Mormon culture. How do you feel about t hat ? D: they can say that is because the given many jobs and oppor tuni ties that she quietly knows her strength. She really knows that she is a funct i orring person in the Church, and she is keeping the ward going, and that without her, there would not be many of the things happening in the ward. She is quiet about it She is the quiet, submissive woman, knowing her own strength and willing to take a second seat underneath the and qui te frankly, many women say "Who wants the man, Priesthood responsibili ty anyway? So I'll just be quiet and still have my own rights and my own authori ty. So within the Church, it doesn't create the threat to the majority of the women. In fact, I have to say this, that I Well, you woman see is the reason so , " think that many women in the Church responsibility, authority, they that feel that frustration a W: I minority. think erated; going the back corrnnon are don't a want minority. the word I was Women's Movement to don't want that. They're really looking word any more The few for was lib­ is liberated. DECKER 5 Do you see Mormon womem as liberated way other than what you've described? are subtle or clearly defined role oppressed in any Would you say there or designations? D: think any church that has the tremendous power over its pe?ple that the Mormon Church has, to simply say that any­ thi ng that the leaders say at Conference time is devinely i nspi red, how can you argue wi th that? During the Con­ ference the word comes out to the people that the woman's She is not to seek for a career. place is in the home. Well, you could go on and on. W: So, you D: I I see it this as clearly defined. clearly defined and I see it as clearly op­ those who listen as the final word that what has been said is absolute. see pressive as to W: I D: I consider that extremely No question about it. W: this question that interests me is Mormon other women. Do you see any differences between :Mormon women and non 1'-lormon women here or e 1 se­ where? Have you made any observations about that? A pretty elusive thing to get at, but sometimes you wonder how unique, for instance this culture is, and so you try a.1ld pin it down. see. One aspect of compared women oppressive and clearly defined. to - is. Sometimes isn't tmiqueness just by W: Yes. D: No, it isn't, and when you say Yes it wonder, for example saying we're llllique. D: thing. about So, that interests you me, but as I say it is not 10rmon women, are we if our an easy talking the Wasatch Front or Mormon women in South So I think probably Amer i ca or Mormons you know per see what you have to say is when I'm making corrunents, I'm who women about Mormon associate to talk with, I. having because you look at the tremendous nLber of people who are coming into the Church now; the percentages that are il­ literate. Well, you know how can we be talking about that Yes So when you say are there differences? Mormon woman? there are. I'm afraid one of the qualities that I see is We have the the attitude that we are the chosen people. In the mean­ right church and therefore we are superior. time, the way the time of this superior woman is being spent in running her church, causes her lack of awareness of other problems of the world. women on DfLKfR W: D: 6 think You they're possibly? Oh. yes. Oh yes. gumg go and the Church now? to you are you church I must see doing or i ented more than others, confess that I find it very fati­ are you doing in first statement ' ''What people saying, what That's almost in the Church?" the W: Talk D: Well, what they do is feel an enormous sense of pressure of being responsible for many jobs, attending many meetings, a minute about what they do in the Church, perhaps. The time spent in church filling a great deal of time. Is that music meetings and church jobs is tremendous. going to bother us on the tape? W: No, I think it will be lovely background music. D: Well, it's keeping him happy. (Her child) So there is a deal of time spent, and a sense of cormni tment , a sense of obligation to do this job, to attend this meeting; to a tremendous sense of the need to attend the meetings, has been be counted, to do a responsible job with what gi ven to them, and there has been a great deal of time spent in the Church. grea t W: D: do you effect? Or that. HOW' that? bad effect? evaluate a you think that has a good Maybe you haven't thought about Do what type of woman you are talking on look upon it in this way, Marilyn, certainly in early days when the pioneer woman had all that she had to do, it must have been a tremendous relief for her to go and become involved wi th other women in something outside of It must have been a her home and her children and all. that have same obligation We her. for break kept great kind of ful­ same that where a in generation going today fillment could be done, more-- I feel more meaningful out As an example, when I into the world, into the community. in keeping auxiliaries going; see the hours that are spent all the various auxiliaries wi thin the Church that really are still organizations to help us, help myself, my child­ same reli­ ren, all my neighbors around me who are also my tremendous see the I when organization I think, gion, system that has been set up through the Church, it's bril­ liant really, the involvement of everyone-- I would like to see that same type of acti vi ty go out to the wor l d, go out time You know that same spent in a to the community. "be social relation lesson that is saying good to your used to go time that not neighbor, love one another." Why the of on the other side out valley helping real pro­ It would seem like such Church? blems--people not in the it out we could do it, if an easy thing to implement it I about. Well, depends - DOCKER 7 doesn't seem to have gotten that far. We in helping our own people, our own kind. W: It's a cohesive uni t, are but you would like to so see involved it moving to other areas. D'. Oh yes. Very W: very interested in your particular assignments so speak wIth the Chruch now. You mentioned that you were much so. I'm to on Would with a group of Mormon women leaders. that and bit about like to me a ttle tell Li perhaps you talk about that project? commi ttee a D: I'm not able to tell you too much simply because I don't It's been a very intereting ex­ know that much about it. When me. for they first asked me to be on it, I perience wondered why I was asked. W: And the D: (Laughter) I really think what it is, Smi th, the Relief Society Presi­ Barbara Marilyn, tion and being a very bright the in new posi dent, being woman--I really like her a great deal--wanted to have a sounding board of some people in this valley--their re­ actions to the Church, of some of their criticisms, what and what isn't working, and what some feel is I wish name I of the committee again is? knew. that is they working major frustrations and problems of the Mormon women As the commi ttee is going now, it today and so forth. some feed­ mostly is just a sounding board for her to get her hear didn't speech I'm sorry to say I back on them. but I understand a great at afternoon Conference, yesterday of is the So, I deal of it was based on our committee discussions. can't and two last meetings have been out of town for the There into. agai.n, to really say what direction it's going some to see i change, to see me, it is the one oppor tun ty that was from very good something the Relief Society move to move with needs now but really and right for ISO years, the times, really needs to get on the bandwagon, and really be productive, because you know that opportunity, all that who love to give of their time, energy of all those women and the opportunity of giving ence i who have had the exper and producing, being very productive in the connmmity. in the various wards spinning their wheels, so It's to sitting speak, making their own crafts, touching upon increasing So, I have hope that abi l i ty and so forth. could that happen. But I do young president, their mind' 5 with this new become overwhelmed to think, once again as we mentioned what before, when you are talking about the whole Church, in need and what Front Wasatch they the on here need we I South America are completely different, so I don't know. don't know if we could see things happen or not. DECKER 8 What are. some of the complaints or I shouldn't say that, Erustrat ions that have been discussed there? Maybe you not free to talk about that at this W: or are point. Well D: no, I think I am very free I don't think I'm saying feel confident be­ of line. I 'm It was inter­ sur you've probably heard them yourself. me to go to that meeting and hear that it's just estIn not WI thin myself or wi thin other women I associate wi th, but I think probably the greatest frustration that has been expessed as we have gone around talking with women is the frustration of so much expected fran the woman. She is supposed to be the perfection of everything--mother, wife, hold down two or three church jobs, be well dressed, and a marvelous cook, you know. She say, "It is impossible. How can I do it? It is simply impossible." From the Church standpoint that frustration is, "How can I attend all the meetings that I am supposed to attend and still be a good mother and be home all of the time?" cause to. I things out fr W: . And keep D: Yes. W: And this All of that and it's Yes. sources. D: the kitchen floor spotless. is something that has That's intersting. simply impossible. come up from a variety of that has come up that I thought was very the frustration they feel in going to interesting Relief Society meetings and while they are there are thor­ oughly enjoying the meeting, really liking the meeting and being inspired and loving the sharing of the sisterhood and all, and then going home and having depression set in be­ cause they feel inadequate. They don't have the same type of testimony that the woman had that spoke up or that the woman shared a beautiful experience that happened in their home. They haven't had that experience in their home or This the woman talking of her husband doing something. You know on and on. The woman's husband hasn't done it. back-patting that would go on, and for example, the teacher giving a lesson, you know, which says do as I'm doing. They don't mean to be saying tha t , but that is what hap­ And so then the sense of depression of "Oh, I'm sup­ pens. posed to be doing all of this, and if I'm living the gos­ pel, it will come to me and the Lord will bless me, but why because right now I really want am I feeling so depressed, child. at to yell Or, "I really don't have that good my door next about neighbor" or "I can't make the my feeling arts and crafts things that they are doing." Yes. Another one was expectation. W: Problems of great D: Really, and the feeling of inadequacy, the feeling of being overwhelmed with too much responsibility and with the DECKER 9 knowledge you W: D: . can be you will perfect. be perfect It becomes if you listen overwhelming to the to them. Lord, But, you described is some ways a feeling you have about the Relief Society sort of spinning its wheels, and on the other hand you feel that women are pressured with too much. oh Yes, It sounds like I'm saying that I'm wanting yes. No. I'm glad you brought that up, because that isn't what I mean. I feel that probably 90 percent of the be could Then meetings completely eliminated right now. all of those meetings that we have had year after year after year could be replaced by very meaningful time. Then to me, the women would say I feel so good about that two hours that I gave down on the west side helping a Catholic family whose bam was burned down, you know, I don't need to make it a dramatic thing, but a real sense of going out and having contact with the wor l d and its problems and its needs, rather than just going and going to prayer meetings and in-service lesson meetings and sitting and being told I think it can be cut all we're supposed to be doing. I think the time spent in meaningless meetings could down. be cut down considerably, wi th much more meaningful time spent for the women in active community involvement. more. W: Is this a cailluittee is shared by other members of your haven't you been able to? feeling that or specifically I call! t specifically. that D: Now W: But D: Yes. I think they feel a need. I have to think back on that. several months. say. I cantt say that they see some new necessarily I haven't shared that. directions for the Relief Society? I our think I could safely say past meetings--it's been strong feeling? W: Not D: I think that could be a general trend within that No. No. connnittee of the desire to have ",-omen feel good about them­ selves. They need to feel good about themselves, and feel Li ke the producti vi ty that they are giving is really good and not second rate, not token. W: The to a concensus or a Society leaders of the Mormon Church seem be interested, at least, in under s tandirig the atti tudes woman of the Relief women. so, which is exciting D: Very much W: That's what your committee is to me. talking about. DOCKER D: She 10 (Barbara Smith) listens wi thout feeling offended "You don't have the right "That's very interesting. people feeling, exciting. are which is we've beautifully. She listens don't unders tand;" Or spirit about it." Instead it's If that's the kind of reaction got to do something about it," or "You W: is. I want to change the subject for a minute and ask how you felt about the Equal Rights Amendment in Utah, you the defeat of it in Utah and your att i tude about it as a member of the Mannon Church. D: Well, my attitude about it was I knew it would happen. wasn't the least bit surprised. W: Because of the Church influence domination of Utah? D: Our the Church, but they're all ti ed together. hand hand in of Utah the state goes political standing in I just don't think there is any question with the Church. I think it is pretty much like liquor by the about that. It will not come here. drink. Ironically the ERA would be as in defeated here, when, fact, you well know Utah fought vote woman to get the so hard years back, and we have the Isn't that in­ vote. official first the record of having that that would e tandabl under s is That very teresting. our old of the time think in pioneers, the happen then. I had and determined ad were greater free­ women very earthy of kind that for and out thing than we do dom to go fight That or I because of the political of Because today. W: And how do you account for that? D: think it's the way the whole trend has gone, I think in the old days, when you read of the old Marilyn. there were diaries and the things that were happening, I with involvement dialogue. debates going on, great great think that we have tended, now with modern day, to accept a statement as gospel doctr ine , thus the Lord sai th type of within thing, and it is not to be questioned. The dialogue a and as result, our Church meetings and all has been lost, We've lost a lot of peo­ we have lost a lot of good minds. that like ple that like controversy, that like discussions, threatened by it to express their opinion and didn't feel a to me is Now that very sad when they did express it. Well, I . thing. W: D: do you think that tions, I know. Why happened? These are difficult ques­ That's a good think about that for a whi l.e. a lot has I think That's a very good question. question. Church but as the word the use to be said. fear, I hate to I'd have to DJI:KIR 11 eXJ?ands, to the need to keep controls on the group--it's one have been a small body coming into the thing valley to­ gether and having the leaders make statements that can be controlled here. But as it eXpands allover and statements have to be made, they are made with stronger emphasis and by more There's a absolutistic and interestingly enough, people. trend of, well, "This is it and if I follow this statement, I will that element that I think maybe a coming in are of be saved. I will be rewarded." There is a certain type of person, and deal of the conversions that are appeals to great that type person. I think with the world being as disruptive and upsetting and with all that's oc­ curring, there is more of that kind of thing--of getting I security within that kind of authoritarian quality. don't know if that makes any senseo W: D: Yes, I understand what you mean. Getting back to the ERA, influence the 1n fact, did you feel the Mormon Church did, fRA in Utah? I don "t think anybody would deny that they influenced the outcome. They came right out in the Church newspaper. stand. W: And you interpret that D: Yes. W: There was a lot of debate about that t.hat it WaS not in fact. D: I think I think it's a stand, but I think itts incidental. there is enough within the Church's attitude, that it would if that had not come out in the even not have passed, I think there is a general fear of anything like paper. that. We're just a very conservative state. W: If you think that the Mormon Church is why do you think they are? D: Well, W: Do you anticipate Mannon Church? I as a Yes I doo , Many people thought opposed to the ERA, the Church can't really be in favor of the ERA and keep their stand on women. Yet, if you look at it a little further than what the IRA is saying right now, then you could go beyond and have the FRA come forth and say, then women have the right to have the Priesthood and the Church simply cannot have anyone questioning the fact that women cannot have the Presithood. So, of course, they are going to have to be against anything like that. into the Priesthood of the because in other churches in this country and elsewhere, women seem to be moving in that direction. women ask moving that DECKER D: 12 No, I don't Marilyn. For this very reason the Church will it will change and it will but it will how can I say it, it will always be under a be, oh, alway certai.n control. The whole system will not ever penni t anything in the Church that tends to be that liberal. We We change the way certain change names of organizations. things are conducted, but as far as stands like that, ab­ That is a gospel doctrine. 'I't will never solutely not. deveiop, grow and change. W: But they have changed on issues some issue. D: Yes. W: That D: That's true. W: Do you think it's D: the polygamy doctrine. That's true. possible that they might change? t hi.nk out You mentioned that you think the Mormon women wouldn't want Do you think there is a ground to move into those roles. Priesthood swell among the Mormon women to move into the (Laughter) if it were available to them? I'm using ground Have you but is there that feeling? swell facetiously, in interested seem about that who ever talked with moving D: a as it's probably as much a possibility as they will I think it's in on the stand regarding the Negro. that same stand, and I don't think we're going to see that either. I come W: was such into that. people did hear a speech made one time trying couldn't have to help the Mormon woman under stand why she to the said I speaker, I the Priesthood, and afterwards I No. imagine can't can haven't. have it. I anyone want ing (Laughter) it, you know, they (the men) apparently there are some But I don't don't. people that feel second rate because they is some­ that really feel that, Marilyn, just personally She has wanted. responsi­ thing that a woman has really Almost, I'm being a bit face­ She has authority. bility. would have is "Oh, tious, but almost the concept the woman I'd have to go to additional meeting. that means another much all it That's pretty Priesthood meeting." (Laughter) them in this modern day I think. think is really the big issue. don't part of it I would W: mean to So that talked a Li ttle bit about the Church's changing I wanted to ask you if you think the national patterns. the Mormon Church and the affect Women's movement will women in it or the families in it? You have DOCKER D: 13 Like anything. Like the national Women's movement is going the rest of the world and any organization is to. gorng to be affected to a certain degree, to me, not as much as It should be, but I think--to say it will affect It is inter­ it, I don't really know which way it will go. est ing to me, that the Conference right now the speeches seem to. be saying that the Mormon woman ha; been a lib­ erated woman all of her life. affect . . . W: Yes, I mentioned that earlier in stantly reinforce that feeling. D: It is a little difficult to say They're reinforcing it. which direction it will go. If it should go that it would it would be very slight, women more, liberate the M0n:ton be s i It could l go the other way, and push ght really very You don't seek for it more--you don't go out and work. Have before educate babies career. yourself. The you your don't It's hard I know. that bit. It could whole way. go for me to say which I think it would go. our interview. They con­ , W: I Do you have any other comments you woul d like to make? Have have asked most of the quest i ons that I had in mind. Church and you any feelings about the women in the Merman their activities that you would like to express? D: I am a I have to. say that this culture is my background, I have a Ut ahn and a Mormon and I like the life I live. good life. Many marvelous opportunities have come to me, It and I have a great deal of freedom to do what I want. It also has to be somewhat associ ated with my religion. has to be associated with the fact that I have a husband who was reared in this conmuni ty, this society and this Church, and his willingness to share with me and give me as These are basic--it can have. much freedom as I is W: Sure. D: It it. possibly myth our or really is. I think probably as opportuni ty women, our So folklore. I probably poorly as to really because it is many good things about I've already said it before and I am right now--that there Is r.an some see producti ve, funct i oni.ng has encouraged higher that church of use the your talents and your can a see many, education, has encouraged I think it's a shame that apparently through abi l i ties. the fear of what would happen, there's been a stopper put ex­ on the kez when, in fact, this could be an extremely wemen the see functioning that could really citing so;iety at a super W: level. de What occurs to me as you say that is that you, in fact, and are appar­ abeut, that talking function in the way yeu do not share the ently, you a a person, as an individual, DECKER 14 frustra ti ons D: much so feel, because you seem that the other to have moved. in women the Church Well, I don't Marilyn, because I've learned to say no. You see, people in my church, if they had everybody as I am going, because i tey coldn' t keep all their meetings the no. not wIll I will time to go over to give SImply say down a down a pos i­ I I hold hold job; meetings. al th?se. tIon WIthIn the Church, and I've enjoyed the positions I've I've really enjoyed every posi tion I've ever held down. I've gone from Primary to Sunday School to Mutual. held. I've held down jobs in every auxiliary, and have enjoyed I have them, some more than others, but I have said no. made decisions on my W: So, an individual. D: Yes. 1'1: And D: Yes. W: I'm sorry I D: No. On no. back on tt3t you act as perhaps that is own. a problem for I had another Oh yes. thought interrupted you. Well, point Well, D: I know what I was I other was just women. going a to say. interested. It I can't remember now. of the stand w, could have. you said there has been W: some was something stopper. going to say. When we talk of the women who say "I'm not trations, you're going to find many I'm terribly happy, and I will the least bi t frustrated. I frus­ was certain aspect of a certain woman say that the Church for a needed and has filled her time, and has kept her feeling a teach and class, and had to get out and go to a meeting has helped and it get her children to the various meetings, what to known have not her fill time that many women would She may not with. over are do once the child-rearing days Suddenly her life ended have had a desi re for a career. school. when the tenth child was in W: It D: Yes, seems to be a national very serious problem. and for that woman, there is true happiness done I've responsi­ my done satisfaction of "I've my duty. and I am busy, I have done my visiting teaching bility. and so busy, busy." W: In the structure. D: Absolutely. And I don't think that is to be questioned. to give older peo­ The same way that I feel about genealogy don't like can function, and genealogists who no ple longer DOCKER 15 to. hear you say that, because they feel all of us ?Olng ger:ealo.gy. For them Colder generations) should be to become In hIstory records and working on their records, I a sense of getting up each day and a com­ they mi tment and a Job to do. It makes them funct i oning , viable people. They go to the Temple, they have to do their Inolved tlnk hav temple work. W: D: To that between. In I think that's marvelous. extent, . . between, that's a very successful culture, but in . there's a great number of frustrated people who challenge, who want a higher education who want to go beyond visiting the neighbor, who career, the visi ting teaching and going over the social relation have lesson, and learning to be kind to their neighbor. We to a tremendous number of frustrated people that are trying have They still feel good about themselves in the Church. these drives and these desires where they've been told that They don't feel like the glory of God is intelligence. they are gaining what they really are capable of gaining and producing and funct ion ing and expressing themselves like they really want to, and that's the area that I want fear and to see the stopper taken off the keg, and not the want a want a greater say go to it. W: to That f s the point I'm very interested in in my study, in women fact, are, determine what percentage of Mannon Church and satisfied with their Li ves , their roles in the frus­ in their homes, and to what extent they experience a is That roles. very tration because of their designated one too. difficult a very subject, interesting D: Very. W: I D: other people. Especially when compared with Yes. under st and, frUstration? feeling But you are aware, are you of women (Laughter) I think the divorce rate being Dh my goodness. believes in the family life as as high in a community that I of dissatisfaction. indicative strongly as they do is and see to psychiatrists think the number of people having s is very indicative. social workers and marriage counsel.or I institution capacity is indicative. I think our mental think I indicative. is rate alcoholism think our high Church is producing we're kidding ourselves if we say this I think the of them. the majority totally happy people, In the meantime, when I see the number potential is there. contention is religious of marriages that their bone of to realize that's what me tears apart differences, it just that's supposed to is spli tting a couple apart--the thing It's frustrating to see women who do draw them to- gether. the perfect Mormon mother or the she's tha t not feel I perfect Mormon wife or the frustrated woman who is saying not. L'rn and have I what with should be happy DfCKER W: 16 thi, ,compared to other places, to non-Mormon for states, Instance, Utah has hi aher divorce rate, higher alcoholism or do you know that? Do you 0 D: We do. W: We do? D: Oh yes, we do. The national averaze in divorce rate is one We're higher than ·in four, I think and we're one in There's We're higher in alcoholism. the national average. been an interesting study that during the Conference time, the consumption of liquor goes up here. three. right? W: Is that D: There has been a study that the psychiatric ward patients who have the ability to funct i on outside the hos­ pi tal most of the time during the Conference time have to go back in during that time. W: Brings D: Brings Yes. up some old demons. When I used to go down to up the old guilt theme. Provo State Hospital and visit with the patients there, the alw-ays their discussions were their religious problems, their problems guilt feelings. So you iOW a great deal of and we get more Mormonism pro­ have stemmed from religion, Elsewhere, another men­ blems here because of the Church. institution would have Catholics in a Catholic Com­ tal be­ But, you know, one conclusion I have came to, munity. this valley, and I love living in Salt Lake and I think it is a tremendous place to rear a Ci ty, about it, I used to family, and it has many fine things feel that there is really something very special which I do that think is due to the wholesome family oriented valley have that to to talk and people But as I travel it is. to a that moves that seems it any couple move a great deal, out of where know you get community of about this size--you New York and Chicago and all your problems in Los Angeles, There is a good there. contentment that, there is a happy are going on there There things good family life there. for here credit the ourselves that somet imes we've given that I'm not so sure cause I love .... W: That you can't attribute it to the Church D: I can't necessarily attribute it W: As size of community? just to as much. the Church. No. DOCKER D: 17 Size of community and I can attribute it to the Church that the Church has kept it the size that it is and will con­ tinue to by i t stand of don't bring outsiders in; don't tour.ist s That is Church influence but it's encourage will keep community in its provincial way It that ki nd of corrnmmity always. This could expand to a large one, but I think the Church influence will see that I that doesn't happened, but it isn't un ique to Mormonism. that , eeping te think it's unique to middle sized American. looking for that right W: A lot of people D: Dh yes. W: One thing I wanted to include in this Irrtervi ew Anne, you talked about the designated roles that Monnon Church gives I'm wondering if a women choses a career instead to women. of the job as mother and homemaker, I'm wondering if she have would difficulty being accepted into the MOrmon There are Just how strong do you think that is? Church. have and Mormon the women in they career Church, some Yes, you bet. achieved great D: W: are things. And it's How do you We like it. explain that? I'm happy to see that there are more of those aw1ieved a career along with their role of mother th2t have able to fi t it in and the fact that been and wif e, have their done duty in bringing children onto this they have to be a little more sanctioned than say seems Lt earth. Number and has never married. career a has the WOIDai! who should think them make to they r unfai it's totally one, was that even want to. Maybe they don't. The old concept earth and multiply and re­ we had to get souls here on the Now we in quantity. plenish the earth and get Mormons th the wi more sophisticated really need to become a Li ttle If not. are idea that some are going to do that and some do it. not should they don't have the desire, they simply think they will But as far as the Church's stand, I don't feel accepted. woman ever find a way of making the single' She is down upon. She is looked She is the off-horse. think it is and I looked at with pity and condescension, vi lot of a lost think we tally extremely difficult, and I cannot find a place and because simply they good women, have made the deci­ acceptance in this Church because they the had opoportunity. sion to not marry or they haven't Certainly. Church has been It has come to my attention that the Mormo the well SIngle person as a made aware of the single woman, are there that many unhappy single problem. That is to say attitudes that you the people in the Church who experience tried to deal have leaders Church described, and the Mormon correct? that Isn't with that recently. problem D: good. now. Yes and not very effectively. DICKER 18 You don't feel that is has. W: I D: to so:md author.i tati bate. Barbara Sni th WaS and there see. I so ve a?aln , but I know marvelous in (Laughter), hearing com­ ment of thIS because we do have some single women on this commlttee, and I have talked outside the committee to several of my good friends who are not married or who are di vor ced or whatever and the attempts to bring them to­ gether, these singles meetings or dances. singles 'Ward. W: Well, apparently there is D: There's a singles ward which according to the people who involved in these say it makes you feel all the worse are in your stand, because you are all together and once again it's an effort to get you together. W: To mate you D: Yes. even a mean. So there again it has a very negative response Yes. Rather than including them and accepting them as them. indi vi dual, who they are or what they can gi ve to the an I think without exception Church or the position they are. has attended a to who talked have I that every person dance has gone or a or fireside meeting singles singles ve never fel t so It back. not would "I and go said, once, to inferior, so inadequate, embarrassed." I guess. W: Somewhat contrived situation, D: Yes. W: Well, D: Well, there again, you can say how can you change, perhaps by not change but why emphasize it by lecturing on it, out and making coming by class discussion, it as using You can look There are many things. it. statements on and doctrine say why isntt back in the theology and church I that. we bring up this brought up, why don't heard.an can fInd he that's Yes true, anti-Mormon bring up things. to be 1 that fact you re a way. We have to stop talking about the not a fulfilled person, you have not done the Lord's work until you have married and had chi1dren. So it has not worked talking they change that? in about changes in the Mannon Church, Is that not part of the doctrine? those in the obstacle W: the desirable So, well, and there simply has can course. for change that you could anticipate discreet of sort a be would change tha t-vthe neglect. (Laughter) D: Yes. I think invol ving them finding them a discreet neglect and then another way of in your acti vi ties, not for the purpose of that they are an mate, but for the purpose a DOCKFR 19 individual, they are a funct i ontng , vital person enounnous make contribution to the ward and Church and we haven't done a very good job on that. an getting into lyell, has been W: Idea a raised current National/International to issue, this question The me. Women's that to or Movement can the this the appa;ently Women's Movement has the Mormon Church to discuss family and the mother role more than it did before. Do you belIeve that? Do you think that is a valid view? seemed. emp?asize to cause D: Yes, I do. W: So, maybe the singles problem has been emphasized in I think it has because to them as a threat. come recent I'm Church has reinforced this stand. years has else someone about because how feel that asking you you mentioned it to me that they felt that the Church had re­ activated there. the would think so. Well, that gets back to that think when do but I you say will it be affected statement, the ERA stand-by D: Well, W: Yes, you say D: I have high hopes when Yes. Well, we'll just tillve to see. We're an I talk to people such as Barbara Smith and all. I that. of be should we and ever proud Church, one way or another. changing a ChUTG"1 t hat believes in revelation and we re should move; some people think it is terrible to say move with the times that we're going to fall back on our basic I mean the realities of the I don't mean that. stands. to we've keep up with them rather than got existing world, threatened or fearful and clamping the lid down and In8a!""1, . I we 1 feeling saying that's bad. That's wrong. That's not good. W: You were talking about the divorce rate in Utah, and you said for a church who values family, we a high divorce dis­ rate. Do you feel that a divorcee is looked upon with favor in the Mormon Church or is that a problem? D: I I think anytime you talk to a divorcee, they say yes. because It's just simply think because we have so many. There has been a wider ac­ there's so much going on now. ceptance of it. W: Possibly ful. D: some church programs on that subject would be use­ Oh yes. Again, I've always had sad­ I really can't say. fine men, some ness that I watch our apostles--we have some as we a11 but as older, get they fine minds in authority, be less will We conservative. more will, we'll become much and I and always corrections, make change likely to want to DfLKFR 20 how can we poss i bl y get new things in when by leaders are in a position to really do some­ the thing, they're 85, 90 years old. worry. that t ime our you think Barbara Smi th, who is younger , has the Is she able to influence the Church leaders? fluence? W: Do D: It will be in­ interesting to see if she can. She, by the way, well educated, well traveled woman, and her own grand­ mother, I believe got her medical degree after rearing her children which is an interesting background for our Relief Society President to come from. is a W: Yes it is. D: She It will be interesting to see. typical. in it, that it is hard to say, because you see She is an auxil­ even a Relief Society is an auxiliary. the that me out to young mutual mend, iary. It was pointed name his think I head of it Craven, is, he is paid Ruth Funk is women's ful l+t ime work, whereas the young full-time volunteer. It is is not so W: Right. D: whlc. same so new is Func ti OIlS. D: Yes. Did Belle D: have a do you know? Spafford or I don't know. Spafford W: Society thing whole Relief tere it functions in that not absolutely sure, but I think, leadership D: the is that way, W: W: sense, a was lot I'm manner, I think. it is difficult to say. same so of influence the Church My feeling about Belle I really don't know. She followed. that she followed. Smith might you think that Barbara assertive? more bit follow? A little Do on be less likely to that she is I think the very I do. Yes. Oh yes. board com­ wi l l ina to formulate a cormni ttee, a sounding her of criticism and is willing to listen to RefIne­ Cultural the of Society Program. She was chairman were a there and ment Prozram that is going on right now, She lesson plans. criticisms on her specific barrage about do must something listened to those and said "We Now that those lessons." of intent the not that is that, isn't who Someone just falling to me is a very open mind. into a roll saying, "That's the way it's been done before, and that's the way it will continue." fat mittee: Reief f DOCKFR W: 21 The Relief are decided Society lessons by whom? and the Relief Society functions D: There is W: Of the Relief Society? Do is this accountable to the. D•• I don't know. W: I'm not D: I do know that the big nemesis in the Church is Correlating Committee. It is almost a joke. You can get a fine lesson written up, have marvelous things in it, and they'll say "That's terrific, now how can we get it past Correlating Cornmi ttee?" Because that Correlating Commi ttee apparently has a way of slashing and taking out all the meat. W: Wno D: I don't know. It's one of That would be very interesting. Will it get those words you hear--Correlating Commi ttee. past Correlating Comrnrrttee, and to me I don't know who Cor­ relating Committee is. W :M3.ybe there isn't one. (Laughter) esting quest.ions that have come to my is a General Board. sure on you know? I'm been a views. your . poor a one t 0 as,k all the decisions or . about that. the It's they make Correlating pleasure I sought Commi ttee? Male Those mind. or are female? some Do inter­ I appreciate talk with you Anne. I know because out you have given you to thoucrht to the particular problems of the women in the Mormon Chch because you are working on the conuni ttee in So it has the Relief Society to deal with the subject. been of value to me to hear you. some D: In talking to you, I don't know if I think it in my head. W: I think it's pretty clear. Thank you. END OF INTFRVIEW can verbalize like I