Florence Mitchell Oral History Interview

Oral history interview of Florence Mitchell by Marilyn Warenski about status of women in Mormon culture.

OH-OO,814 STATE UTAH HISTORICAL ORAL Florence INTERVIEWER: Marilyn DATE May 6, OF INTERVIEW: Mitchell Warenski 1980 Status SUBJECT: The TRANSCRIBER: Rita DATE: August 27, MW: an interview subject of the We're Provo, The In Women Culture Mormon home Utah. The 1980 with of Status the at of Simpson is This LIBRARY PROGRAM HISTORY INTERVIEWEE: SOCIETY in Women Alg Ballif, of date Mitchell Florence is May the 836 Mormon North 1980. 6, on I the Culture. University am Marilyn Warenski. All right Florence let's begin today by having yourself, about education your FM: / Well, I born was children was Daisy MW: How do FM: F-a-i-l. and you about and my Davis spell in your life and those kinds of Salt Lake, I Father Fail. that? was George you tell background, your and things. am L. the olaest Fail and of my five Mother kay. MW: 0 FM: My maternal grandparents Grandmother was plains the across daughters, they and ill very a without funds, put her in, of this boy somewhere brought Company, and brought and Salt Lake. My Father's an orphan. left and an he wagon But know my And Iowa. drove in England they So it. and left of that's parents can only orphan and raised train through and he Grandmother things into that's with he my Ben had Lake. And the he Martin Oevil's Gate into story. a Civil never did -2- The buried that at wooden a suffering pioneers by was with after up leaders the so was Salt they company wagon a husband a Grandfather, supplies the Fail and he and back go the teen-age were courage. later. came them her came more We went slow four daughters, got The their Utah, leg, wales their the And drove that to one my them, train wagon some then Great a plains, the on she came My without came were with man of some She they a little anything. where material from this in was Father, Johnson's boy. without died in teen-age, little she and four had suppose don't Mother's was I widow, a and was company leg. little left Wales. from came My to Grandfather just him. foster War, join he the converted family came in He in west Mormon Fail was was New in York the Church. Scotland and her with came Father, by train in 1869. Granomother however Lake, in in I lived born was better tell happy were remember Corine I you oh and And the all moved we to father My excitement (Laughter) thought moved that year that's school. about in was Mitchell. 1925, May September, oh for I Education married And 14, there of, when terrible of lot during finished outside when I we had 1925 and was And eleven our I self had years. -3- I, first him And and been alone then in things. Provo high was it. J. married born was for to just was we remember that Donald chilo my child a of came I can killed. can education, children. they and spent my I we has to four 1918. as I school that guess I was was kinds then grade of And War eighteen five and And So happening even these World born remember can thing, thing. were Idaho Hill Joe terrible a I Salt had I until were oh schools 1929. nearly a happy Pocatello. where correspondance I a was Pocatello to twelfth and That's talking them was until Preston, parents talking about things that Utah. Lake. My in Mitchell. Lake lived we still was children Don Salt in they Manti. in down Salt in Grandfather, Great my first her married lived years. be while they lived then and old years married Mormon. a would they settled And then and Corine who a had in in long time, our first daughter and she old years MW: (Laughter) FM: I really child, second the was made You had lost time. himself we herself criticize and what quite well adjusted when and I I say stood up true" because to come marry I to in feel pay tithing but way I Let me was Mormon FM: Oh MW: Your I ask when thought a very you I that gOOd here, things the money worked was the Mormon, were ... -4- I you When I that Donny raise a in worked to times object on hard didn't I earned to good a lot a were paio tithing pretty able was awfully worked is taught I right thing a never this didn't church, are Mormon I me there he and and drama. yes. were in classes home? parents And we the know bother We a had. never didn't times not for But is. had "I sure. it is have said, Mormon. a were in using and for So of especially about of knew Society right income, people and lots Relief Mutual, lots other. have never thinks stand My husband been have one each persons I not was love five was They Each Mormon, strong. did I other Meeting never active, very Primary, I who man that. that Sacrament that on a was in a just that. in am strong testimony the she families. two children. and time four. interesting, delightful don't MW: for the of oldest up almost had by my 00. to Gross In Mormon. traditional a FM: Oh she devout that you know what of God ask parents were, my yes thought would of some MW: So you had FM: Oh you bet. MW: And FM: Oh always I yes, I didn't. you raise MW: Did FM: (Laughter) being my life. children in the was years choice. going are to pay He paid was a Well old before And his to your his "free George wanted children, baby was four of to I them the join loader". his be, guess but he This was Bonnie was old and years decided they were even remember it oldest made remember, called all his if you have tithing. He to never his son. being baptized, old. Now 8 years old. That's to was own you years had Yet, boy George, talked not him. on whatever. he father 12 wanted -5- to Can't "Now Donny how fear Mormons. our must was, is friends he you the the Their And what is put church? him, to said don't death baptized but he church This to impose to this. was wherever dues and he Father dues". eight about fair very want I ..... know. didn't I she towards of all you And thinking. was the some didn't I I of this Now, that orientation did your Mormon, a Donald he strong did. but with bit single one she completely so frightened be questions the a to used really cursed yet you questioned when 12 I me. you be was deviated cursed, be would you in if Mother my all be the the others. Mormons, so other my All their friends all four of MW: (Laughter). FM: And don't I not, I I had them, the him want to did Newsome the baptized in know what want confirm the the, baptized he had I person our little boy said, great, it's the Father and The basketball (Laughter) baptized, certainly of are was them not. their was Primary around some it we along. You've been in Provo all FM: I have been in Provo since MW: Since FM: I've you been say in but they most of where there Ghet to". living were the I lived just time, in short them. this Newsome." all were everything involved know it how, impressed, it Mormons with When and now others them. 1918. this and 1918, was And I livea in periods, we've been Ogaen, they right else. ... uh huh. lived I nothing is And well since Provo Provo, dia Roland married. were in they was didn't I so Roland don't devout very he isn't boy, whether how MW: So I that's that seen and lives, and thing, still are But social social Son star. Mutual, and a the felt or confirm (Laughter). "Oh had I thing a to confirmed and home I ever children. got we such going was So be. day. hear to who man to same strong dislike, very a you the unchristian most wanted them remember but they and Mormons were and were -6- very down the call it they were happy. I California in part a when now Provo of town "Mormon happy, they were MW: What FM: 792 is your 100 West address by South. The consertative, The Mormons. friends would and do I did directors And FM: Oh MW: You FM: My unhappy in directed husband I Your FM: No. MW: And FM: He would and for using are play and made the Mutual it's it after object. were don't regret liked I when bit of it, a just that longer living? did he die? a you is no relaxed the of better. This is 1968. maybe how and lot a Because married. .... husband in things did. when (giggle) died nicest in much. so made I happy was props, lot a whether people. most good very maybe the learned than more I of Some I and And where to up when think Maybe life, didn't and that's MW: the in rewarding. and they my is lot a know Utah. but had don't all. Mutual in they And was at Second happy were friends. what this Mutual and worked you yes children blocks difference MW: else drama of aware nothing was appreciate am "dyed in the wool", Anyway this wasn't ever real old different. it. way? Ward, nice any wouldn't. the it He was. little bit had a had He and did work it was really fine. So I in fun guess ... heart four knew -7- I attack real that if in gOOd he 1964 and years, didn't I he enjoy life he very pleasant wasn't just been killed form of thing. and he What FM: He to own he did was things be of his if as But forehead. operated was suffer lot, a until up Really but the it his last he which what is a they took a was rare a operation that week a had 1968, in and on had we was lived, he shop. this of upholsterer. for sort border He made automobiles. maker. he But seat He took covers was trained on his until his .... MW: So he FM: Uh huh. his had His shop. own own shop. he And worked up last week. children, MW: And FM: They're close your Grove, and Provo, some daughter MW: FM: And you are not. Oh in do? railroad a almost So , his automobile an to. something. or he worked in worked MW: and he was And didn't He It years. chance a called was out have bonus a cancer. big piece June four given him to going yes, oues, in Oh still daughter Salt Salt said they some yes. pays settle have I arouno. one in did out Lake and in Provo? daughter one on here Granite in some Or in View em Pleasant Hill and in one Lake. of them are The oldest his dues, -8- active boy, and the his Mormons one family and some that pays are very his orthodox bit. daughter The family, they're family. But are all the Temple, she in arrangements, to her the Then third I grounds. think looked like that MW: Oh FM: They're the couple MW: Let's FM: The MW: Donald is have oldest the is that are of names Donald he made they allowed them on the missionary. It thing. with And they the Mormon the are Church. completely done children. The your then George, and then the the with boy it. in .. .. daughter's second to Niel married we always called my next to someone to be whether him of Hutcheson, her he her "Susie". Richard is son supposed remind it who returned a give to eve right? Is know was beautiful George Mitchell married wanted he her When made know don't I anyway in married story. Christmas was absolutely through are that very a it children the was little Mormon a George's as and daughter grounds. And going School nice a single one they're engagment ring he her arrangements with, two FM: my quite temple temple church as Sunday fact on the on quite deviate Grove, teaches her, gave don't Pleasant in not Mormon. husband they just Mormons, Mark. polite what meant. is it. Mark that He or lives -9- Jean is, named polished, is name and Carol Jean him Lynn and Workman and Mark brilliant. (Laughter) not (More in Orem. because That don't Laughter), And he is too but is to not I very a former aaughter his wife marriage who child was the most only one who simply as a The devout things that thinks ana that Does FM: But MW: (Laughter) Well I, husband made not being able things pretty belonging worked High was School quite loved for my a bit working childrens was in of Council of time 4-H, so she funny the and I I -10- in of in engaged know I ... dO never occaSionally the help the kids by P.T.A. and president of all the Junior the and also with benefit. you would could in grade school president all have kept out of political I've working I presiaent Provo she Mormon uses the little? Outside thought and P.T.A. and Council, spent I in promise me quiet I P.T.A. to hard be to much. she what organizations? Mutual in (Giggle) anything political. a activities women's particpated you devout a with (Laughter) yourself of kinds Churchs the is take not about the and is. she way What my of you talk noticea I've church. to go the than said to But questioning would by youngest my interferrea it Doesn't husband Her it. remind that's other FM: with not MW: you feels. along excuses enjoyed. she children her And Mormons. Seminary in high school because goes ana are liberal. most however Mormon, gooa a one time. that. things the And at I I did, see, throughly enjoyed was 4-H. And had yet believe much, very later MW: What FM: I MW: Oh FM: And gave did did to because me worked work. sold MW: Oh that FM: It was a and MW: You were active FM: Yes. MW: You already ask you, for Elmo and eleven work. I confioence enough worked Durfey years to I stevens worked but them at least way with them this quite nice awards. working for Van for got benefits from this for and had cleaning plant had it in a answered you your dio I them. 4-H providing they both Church? FM: I'm longer MW: So a withdrew to do. I can't remember that else. variety the come level Mormon you of wouldn't his anything of no to go that cleaners. rewarding thing much is could I skills sewing nice. did What do trips 4-H is I children my club received the About them. didn't a that worked Elmo for also them at 4-H my this. when And skill a learned I payed off it right? without do there And scouts. And most. the 4-H girl had also I do? you that and enjoyed I alterations is and scouts cub of member of question from a the formally. -11- that I traditional activity of community activities. now in Mormon the was going Mormon home. church, Church. to the I FM: You bet. MW: And when MW: Well I it to under in it and Society a church for how sense, I in the So I did and she believe don't ask to the all about?" I'm not was a his companion right bishop sure, he was because Independent, I to big that book gone made any what was happening. she I but was who believe that was a writer and paper. it was So I they had to say, put out by the -12- for a this but Karnes that he And heard had of rightly, up she I.W.Y. is Utah very perked and what citizens. I the someone fact concerned Christiansen all. meeting, was emphasized the he meeting at And you, name come just this to was make sense the sent his represented believe, what conducting were Erma thought disguisting listened have authority, man, and would it how are didn't It had who your The works. if her they think I was Provo said I it I if see people where's before, to go Then no. said orginization our asked and It by my Relief the at that people with plain. so called was well too fault seemed that? do something is no meeting a said she And me? early evening had "Well attend I Commissioners meeting seeing find to you wasn't I equality that 1977 caused was, could I be I but law, the to the calling your 1977 and would Teachers Chambers in what and E.R.A. me being equal June that was the about dear very do you guess informed is did my ears held up and she and this was going tell to things not h i n the think to Salt decided "A ret han MW: Yeah. FM: But And that feeling I that year, little my week ana things. these than it. I. And I So had planned my plans of going all in that night long. hard that be Emma and and be not even Taylor -13- I studying I never to kept I gave me And invited met with and found raaified. defeated. there this to sleep. my homework should luncheon I exposea real friend home, cancelled go go upset so be some should to and do my got went I as they didn't I I to these Now And right bodied. anything it following aarn did to were was to E.R.A. find to I . they it. Conference. not just I ' And with meeting. leading sheep well that front nightmares proceeaea did in I.W.Y. the 5he sitting the center care women about could so had Really and reason the in day p informed much concentration cam on awful such aid t rat ion and on she Now con c en conference knew rats reading. little less to I a it. in against all of ill FM: a words. Lake (Laughter) never very too MW: I her was thing I.W.Y. seeing were knew I of kind centers much got almost care I.W.Y. were women "Day went vote to were say these They death. to was m0 g frightenea go what This camps". was to as us any could the slightest September me to other her of place people dian't who agreement that I on things, many so important part of my And that FM: No, no, MW: It's FM: The Alice Louise Reynolds the same, but have no about we the thinking the is first time with an my life thinking. own my It in to been has a very called now the ..... .... group? same we make to came we life. MW: group but dO stayed together. has group not I completely comfortable was that And exactly like think fifteen the invited Alice that women together occasionally, the it's have we there's Reynolds. I no, this No mean dues, no is people with liberal other Louise nucleus the same, is just get we there's no nothing. MW: It's FM: And not I It may at me. can be Sure. FM: They made the By but a by moral at me a least for big I or to it just is they and say can laugh may close at me. they'll laugh that they're and a not it. wonderful difference '78 I time the church issue. it ridiculous of summer this want I lUdicrous so condemning MW: what say But organization, official an And for still the -14- was had life in my worrying come of out me life. and and the worrying, said it only thing was I could see immoral. is that So I equality couldn't moral is with agree inequality ana going what was to Alg's is at on all. We here came lunch one going to day and for of E.R.A." was a couldn't be said do don't So went I or home, a lot of Mother ana how took ties and but I she sent a copy and to Now why don't FM: And the letter the unable First read you my in organization that equal rights unaer no in the the are the sisters and aaughters and to do believe this to me hear break it nobody silent, had past several contemplation it. this my all these letter, the Stake and study have and to the position taken by regards to the Equal Rights deny law, mothers I years myself longer support would members to writing bishop That just, was could hard was Kimball. prayer, reconcile can to I and still I to it? "For says, to I to I that was knew I house Church. It night, was around it Presidency Amendment. It President spent many hours am of But very felt. Mormon everybody because courage MW: I that group misnomer. it. do not the And finally got I President both. whole the out to just it told I here day, one get have "Mormons lunch to who who one half especially gave birth sustain, -15- or tolerate of it's when an membership these and the wives, nourish ana comfort until man to be non-racist remove my Ana FM: My how aid bishop, called for surely said thought". And the up better he said now". you than I said later. still later." And in the received I effect that and would he called out me say said And the we I said think will said, be what send well no a "I about it" to First the letter time and still made I did you a and still summons whatever. -16- And wanted my He for sent be to the on my but to the to my bishop bishop the talk that feel their church the it was to mind your me off read aown this. up talk little It couldn't Mormon. And Presidency got them. of had a Presidency from all I you be these right I'll to he answers this and want talk the food of care second to send all and thought. First answer an take wanted and the they would of 'it. longer think And my said, meantime it." for hole "I'll hear and anything I "food the got "pigeon some homework do said, anyway my me military the his, he don't "Okay let's Bishop The me. give to won't And I like and done rolls." letter, Please ... he I'll And himself Sincerely, roster. so would said, I had "Well He he bathrooms silly things. were And sexist. be Presidency ignorned Stake and brought church revealea has bishop respond? your the me the God cannot he Mitchell." S. that Now from name Florence MW: death. his I me no free to list. trail. summons and He said no just go ahead but out, get the longer take conference did in and didn't have reason for conduct church. step. I could how went other what through I of was not neighborhood, come and I which at am she these very very, in the if to pit they home, their can you said for who got of the happen to me actually stomach, I around me they believe didn't know house her in got I that this will the do. the not. or was funny thing, men big a church. But when wives that "handy dandy neighborhood -17- was friend week, can't it I would avoid my really proud very the do. out the of I was a violation, my order reason the also whether a my what you know had of meeting, Oh, was and the where bad to ask before. didn't I no paying tithing. of am did I could I sacrament happy right then, Finally you, I And I just finally So invited was law was bad, a he the said react. ridiculous not to All emotionally upset. they're privileges he because physical pain sound privilege the whether a I meetings, rejection living they might know that auxiliary meetings. through went you any But, egged the violation and do. excommunicated. was excommunication my didn't know presented, be of any rotten to I except handle want what have do. to need all That's happy. don't sacrament, excommunication. am you me that the loose I I let paper participate my and wittnesses want what do and counselor". want listening have what do to How they haven't send Relief don't give skipped I reconvert Oh is FM: Oh yes. MW: (Laughter) FM: And He am I'm me back accepted. me. They still to They sometime house. my like last month every being They talked about other to friends. don't I the door about it took me a when they They missionary. things. love to week them did have try to ago But have I anymore. come And to right? so said happy bother that don't we have you long a things have time get to about. talk to out. further. any me happy, so in become all a the did "Pinacho" any more gripes to come with this now, you comfortable. Oh do been a my point that member teachers come to message they're just feel feel FM: that didn't You one. the a from things mean have I me. MW: MW: about ward missionarys I all them, The any they don't it at have Society teachers that welcome come. done me talking was look you now they think but rejected. been not if So shoulder, my on done, I've ear. cry many Mormon when little the he Church. had than I I be I all Why person. things different wouldn't there his I did before. But just get I've cut. eat, dress, it to like funny thing The -18- enough strings think, want. choice. money feel is is my I drink, don't own do huh. MW: Uh FM: And MW: It's FM: It is MW: Do you it's you kind Oh of feeling. free a just good. that think were a young I yes. the in have idea any against. discriminated think you his daughters. woman was capable of becoming And it's could. realized there'd well forget just cut Yes, I me, be it. do felt that home. It's never And this But thinking about a good job that why of mother's if she in fact you almost a, in fact should the be week or so after it, had raising prayer believes written there's a their just in as lot that goad as as woman I had single Now the with said of felt letter the of a Well head I children. annointing -19- she bishop the priesthood?" the that it nothing. all, I that born were at a anything Why you might just me is were baby years my to man that bothered after letter. along about the women doing or down as feel you always right. the Just background. Mormon thought I chance. no place my And been chances your took "How only attitudes My Dad didn't discriminate against a that when instance your shapped by your were didn't for beginning, do woman, womanhood about FM: feeling. wonderful a I've his this was written mothers why and the kept and doing isn't fathers oil to prayer, saying a him very can remember fourth with her Oh FM: This This 1916 when and oil what and just about the her gave would But time made bit. little a with pregnant was her I blessing. a that that understand I this Society teachers annointed year discourging this. was she Relief her about and in was started MW: that consecrated really MW: mother my child part has changed That angry. angered him, This she? why couldn't prayer, in been? have 1914 they .... they when were changing then. FM: But I done. that And I could I no reason letter the then to open meeting, defintely why .... women place. that in not were even by the priesthood. over were a know it had been At the time then our Mutual And women There's been even had to were changes. huh. Uh FM: And MW: As far FM: Uh huh. it's as changes been women you other think women OF that in any for the worst. concerned. are END Do see I so my presided MW: MW: time that at wrote allowed be present was SIDE Mormon way? ONE OF women Are differences? -20- TAPE are you different able to see from any any F: I think Mormon absolutely marvelous. are women they're the most capable people. they're most industrious the church and IvlW: (Laughter). FIvl: Really they're responsible MW: there's most hen-pecked ... The Mormon in men be wouldn't there to husbands their send very women the ana is funny thing The it. Ivlormon men the are world. the function sometime does for patriarchy this that He and church. in many they went, that see anything, do can they're intelligent and they didn't if somewhere know you They think I be tend to at them doesn't he patriarch, the as pretty powerful their in homes. FM: Yes, delight thrill. and wonderful. MW: FM: Why 00 There a on that? might be valid me as a happened to something or another that. MW: Yet terrible think only That they they not up to a a lot that that Do all at would if happen to feel And so And of them don't break of strength -21- would and happen to feelings like, stop. terrible seems any then most are do. deviated me. my women That have you but that can't way? to end no Mormon point and something have are child, believe I there's anything they isn't characteristic. cultural This and think just I that think you be look just I yes it one bit I would somewhere if ingenuity. through I don't ... FM: Oh MW: Do FM: Yes. oh Yes, yes. you makes It nothing, out of men did it everything very MW: It was about that FM: I Good any see They've always involved like profitable They've but MW: 00 I they the do FM: Oh, think were I other hired the they them to that do who wives of were the the do the man, death. to spoken have a think strong stand they but in women first they had a bit their -22- they are. something about 19th the had it's it economic. an to sufferagtes and companies, where thing. also money "and right little a economic an less women else feel think women to you don't except for keep the that? they when Why do you it. insurance in all view and died You the that Equal Rights Ammendment about reason women are after country, you cultural. about nothing see all have time? forced been can you to labor leadership has taken such this at physical a they they worked theirselves industrious Mormon quite think don't and gracious they because attitudes it can't else. the strong convictions the against golly is what built have to background? Mormon heritage Our country desert my young your have and them alone, very a strong. for the from comes you thing, wonderful were that think century exercise more more were children had a, sufferage in then power but power, usually were the out or how these first from under feet their it would meet that MW: So FM: Yes, things. of think oh it was No it. of the church will mighty wouldn't We hadn't and families, look Mormons And there in their from we if just institutional an those And yes. I women, today make state. a get to profited by church state Utah freed and become done of some anything do profitable. is you meetings the so a kind these the to for important women, And been trying was profitable very to go good. have be these could Utah and love to women are the to .. delightful most biographies their read effort try and to put myself in their shoes. MW: It's pretty that women colorful history. experience in the Do you church other problem of the Equal Rights Ammendment discrimination Mormon words fact women how do they or have do over view you have don't see you in the other status of priesthood the problems the than in of terms advantages any women any see that churchs? women and the In other except for in the power the church? FM: It takes that care of economically wasn't for the experience. social would have auxililaries don't well informed on that what are you their believe doctrine asking lives. no and social it's most itself. me? -23- So of many life people all at if it pleasant to them think are too that is awful .... Is MW: kind I'm interested of the in of status the in women church, if they you think they feel discriminated against or if think you feel they great they have that advantages. FM: Oh, believe I they sky". think whatever they their social strong A Yes, belonging it. And Do think you social FM: I MW: Uh think at church. FM: meet of much Do you think think it is over course it is a can they or divorced in the For else. A conmintment is as a about stated or what place no worry place you .. -24- do on of lot it much as for were a about them in the woman in the past do or think? in If to cause problem What in in you all? settled to widow, at that serious problem. any divorced the a want is or have you is any you There Do it haven't you do instance, frowning ones no someone the talked serious find or world pies. while woman was you beef times There years. Of with interesting. single the else. 90%. few where MW: least about fills it spiritual. is That's huh. make it as believe anything the eternal to But you're doing, to lot a forward have. than more and get you to "pie in to belonging. of sense forward looking are going needs FM: MW: they are MW: looking are the you're mans world, single world; casseroles what and (laughter). the church for a FM: MW: ... a FM: oh Yes, yes. after comfortable Oh, can't I happier, loneliness or any adjusting. nothing. of I feel include you? Oh I was They But FM: No. MW: It's not Or fill emotional your lucky that you here This marvelous is kind because to my there I or lonely I was to offered they and .... (Laughter). association with these interesting for women. thought was all because read to effort an But They need. librarian time. the it's a any fact In be needs have thoughts of was me that didn't it able been filled included. wanted friends the out? it been have would that could of hadn't feel much They work. wanted. MW: left pretty If sort, this didn't you Did it Is you? any me any for feel? you me offered more FM: say did How made that of things died. situtation me person. FM: husband relieve do MW: your had. I I couldn't alone with them express to anyone. MW: FM: And you have thought about equality it, for many years the E.R.A. Well, most me I've came or I always thought really inequality of just you women, think about take I it when up? important things. but aid for hadn't women that It's really until equality been been E.R.A. -25- a was thing aware one that of the of the bothered MW: Until FM: In fact it gets, MW: it brought was the the Umm hmm. has almost read I more into of some been and think it about the and worse feel. stronger And focus. the the women's in women rights activists for know, I group your many many, years. FtvI: Oh MW: But you FM: No, no I'm telling MW: You felt FM: Uh MW: haven't have I didn't have didn't these No, to see who is ghetto, opportunity any know that right not know think, "Oh I the most people part this liberal in Where ever thinking, in the be so understanding Yes, MW: You is in this to a you been from the need to conform -26- in find do times here." a person choicest you group of go to in find women. thoughts. the all depressing thing the would this your has was yes. felt what of. care there get away of when world of take to Provo ther're like you lived I there kind is way. in And But stimulate FM: This hear. here like it to And thinking. woman, to that. would people MW: movement. children had I did world. that my university a spirits. for And with kindred I no would alone in isolated. of not was Mormon You been kind huh active been you. little of FM: yes. community here, the thinking thoughts while that acceptable and not were such. FM: Yes, MW: Do (Laughter) FM: Oh not in a Did for make that you? really. for me being made community this in did that go? parents were Mormons. How His background non-Mormon a more raised He was he decided home. Mormon MW: Oh FM: But his the children MW: husband's your difference? difficult difficult it's And sometimes. think you indeed. yes yes, see. father should choose. And when be. for all But quite was wait they liberal a he purposes He understood my minute to anything wanted attitudes your in and ... the he to he raised was Old were enough old were home. And they until and man enough to not to chose in a Mormon objected never a do. community not were discriminatory. FM: No, that aware in in no, his don't believe that not Mormon. It was business little MW: Except FM: I MW: What do know this think fact he a that you is and a this sort of were difference no thing. profile. they just think will figured happen he of Sonia Johnson -27- was now, purely speculative, excommunication people many made an for inactive the but in the church church, 1979 with has member. you the been the major media E.R.A and problem church they events will public now react will again, FM: There MW: Well this FM: This is my kind of let it with been and stupid and sweep issue. ignore Illinois along will with the was so this it. There's very just sweep the the that the were about the and state is things a kind lot in under had the way if that. might and same lot a last ten they can They won't as much they went things they things they a rug. -28- there years all and these assasinate talk as they hundred and they along with don't in will fact (Laughter) talk not talk years an can and will is a about that repealed prohibition the other nasty repeal of prohibition, of of bad they handle anything, maybe Florida as awful some some possible be they will just dictators they will, of think you maybe looked ridiculous well important things it do all. at with the that rug, do ratify it, prohibition 1970's, it the that think that had and really silly and, And believe Johnson has think I it. out. will interesting an how on guess. They've So they valid be not caused stand on? die under And goings I of things. character Or feeling. the lot it stand? Sonia In has to you might church The a Do anybodys own publicity. relations. it's churchs the has the to with year It change this is publicity other the excommunication. with things. of Utah and about about, ago, go they that MW: Do members FM: I as don't of they think you the because know hounds their they would that women publicity of result a and like To become FM: Uh huh them and of just have with And E.R.A.? know. you like did I And or politically the there think most not are socially important quite are ask Certainly MW: You FM: Certainly. think be a church, the yet that is (?) get in for few a been Even, me. hurt when didn't it a hurt believing somewhere is have not didn't it garbites group they might and Mormons they (Laughter) much you other FM: this been make will the will let of desired left positions of I them difference me time the not But the have won't Let on thing a few hurt any. might MW: do a to something else, much stand women disenchanted. enough third it their .... MW: not have. ones of won't their politically important, important many loosing are difference this, the it won't But make them. to the them, to do you think priesthood, the church will way that Mormon serve women are in women in leadership doing in many religious organizations? (giggle). they will ... It might not time when, if be in there's they will be equal. -29- my a lifetime, but church all, at there that MW: You FM: I MW: Do that think can't see you think among leadership FM: No, a they are what pressure FM: I time to You that women that there isn't MW: (Laughter). FM: If live you in retreat and a put use that of equal, to be as course that a was, this country in church for and should idea. as have was. that's goodness sake, your dear your to you as not? problems MW: You see FM: No, why WOuld there MW: It's no interesting, people. The responce is idea with be it it. problems? does seem forbidable horifies many people, from many women different interviewed. -30- so that to many that I your have a felt you good a is women that it and think I for earlier is you believe available. comes children I and effective. very their plan why lovely them. on be that to citizens God's to, back don't I priesthood country like supposed why will raising were .... time tool every admitted there for and crawled of pressure it on think Everyone sons, of lot a a church, the priesthood for now kind is daughters, push within church? you idea. go. a all they will that is they've is good If women putting assume to way there the in know think MW: that think I no other any church the inevitable. is FM: Oh I'm them just act because with. the first old Terrible of that I would of done as did terrible that I that girl would what out ... until again never with suppose little I seen happen to cursed questioned Joseph Smith, I ever I've truly thought, I me, because a know don't I indoctrinated bad so I cursed. be time frightened MW: like Mother years sure thought something I would me. I'm that. of sure that got I past 70 was loud. those thoughts. wicked (Laughter). FM: right, That's to about me it this doesn't. with them. You were just FM: You just don't FM: What do from the Oh this your so this no, kind of talk silent a about children The now me, what will think will believe that oh this like happen about to anxieties my that. will God you. excommunication your it denial worried happen (Laughter) dearly? year old of or sufferer. things My really was system. -31- the when me oldest I had I did children these to because it both). MW: lot a sense no. things bad worried didn't guess oh talk Mormons makes this now me some church? thought, love to had I Now They might of taken MW: MW: said and But punish you, right. that's son, to truth. so tell it. that help him (Laughter I me again from FM: And am think I mother in and she's her mine. It longer believe letter. patriachry," off FM: And that Richard, her. it's all out. That's FM: She, the and MW: once husband and no Just Hmmm. the to there's Ummm the point was heart, bit." lot a And prophecy, says so better just said, she underlined returned he's she than "I no or patriachry, in thought he not a "and get me of too the he said he And with got his that. one about lets getting to dO know me out it. and goes along. your daughters E.R.A.? -32- she's approves Her husband and they have antagonizing Does that but point of superstition of and too. it along went feelings (Laughter) while good father need ho gung daughter, her a missionary all having guts enough religious she to younger thinking along, so a showing not every someone letter well right And MW: her that her difference no her her right? husband, her And she bless little a revealation, And there's Jean, me still I'm rolls." your is in beat and it thinks he guess disappointed I've My way. right was If me. just you wrote Oh that I me, My daughter Susie, verbalized never feeling our for prays loves she "Boy oh boy, MW: maybe wayward mother. his way, he he's a of is good good life a and making and sons him and miresable believe in the oh FM: Yes, MW: They're FM: Yes, yes. all they're Richard. much fight but he he always puts as much of course she's, think time every would bit to came vote, a with fight. says make yours be left out. And doesn't believe me kind support But something for money Bonnie And how know agrees and up oldest and to want active. stand in he me little a don't I tells He need we don't I very it if he little a because is have. that it son my This reservations. say, against so would don't I Richard is heart, their Bless that. for better I wife his me, all No, boy, that. for twice Jean, but shout that's how she vote. would exciting MW: That's FM: It's fun. MW: Well it to that have of in your family. fact the your FM: MW: FM: MW: Oh is. that isn't that we're not think what I've like you tolerate do you right. that's yes about .. sounds a have lot gOOd a group there, differences of in family. laugh I It we asked sweep touchy that we the at We about would be sometimes one for what under the rug other it even it and very feel he and sure talk about and it says. So ignore it. in But .. healthy. believe. most of the questions -33- that I had on my mind. I'm wondering you have about FM: the in Well can't Well it revealing FM: know You doesn't what I entitled MW: Do you feel who to you can Yes I I FM: Well see that. else, them up in have that's who don't anymore imposed high think I If well and to you? still a it. very It of approves bonus And if they I'm believe. feel, how would wonderful group Would feel have be. to anybody without would this used that's do want I you, have of whether they what that you this isn't to I So are but would you want than conviction nothing there school bit a very have on. interview of you women pretty conviction that yourself? what else, didn't it you for I'd I than that would would fact different supportive think In women's overlooked. have we feelings. believe you isolation, MW: manage or about your not. or now, were or hear to me didn't isolated FM: matter think if thoughts delightful a just to add, thing. a either to that tape if this of long (Laughter). it's can your end like would Anything of useful and think I don't think been has and the near you church. this talk we're that life own issues could MW: anything your I before is, anyone to have still -34- hear my when you talk about books. impose my want I do but read. in my neighborhood thoughts theirs. girlfriends very much on anyone don't that I want grew indoctrinated with the I Mormon have we You avoid FM: Not what any of and MW: Uh FM: And thinking, of when time think at oh even what this it away wouldn't or how things. So I with get it but I so you feel I them see and on do on. so it's afternoon a them. this But or that group don't enjoy sure about, thoughts their Tha t 's from as difference. the conviction to think and do life, your what you want you with friendship your that feel I am like happy as complete oddball. oddball. live I a (Lau ghte r) an wouldn't wouldn't as if I long But am. believe don't it didn't and maybe wouldn't have them I make I any would manage. MW: Would FM: Yes, MW: Okay anything FM: Not take oh the root you've taken and be careful of it. yes. unless you else to them comfortable. important. them I have you want in don't I be though more Maybe would. and interesting things. to you point much yes. huh. doing?" When ideas. makes it lot a them. friends. time (Laughter) issue. kinds old is that with children your you these fills makes Yes common are their can FM: in the contribute do little doing exciting, are So closest "Whats MW: MW: my very say, just Church, now think of that we ought something. -35- to add here? MW: I wanted ask to feel about the preceive that? Do you maybe you Sonia Johnson have you question. other one case? any did How comments How you about make to did that? FM: Well was what they the And I've been were. the three, here, out came that least at for delighted MW: Oh FM: Yes, yes. She her. And well wonderful, and little of bit came she that expected would happen, FM: It certainly form. or But how Now do I'm a do was glad they feel she's suffered physical pains. hospitalizea. she's her no so first had I delightful was And her and courage, she's happened met a got all kind of what is I not. I a in been in too thought she'll -36- I about or and I and had was remember pains going to get adjusted be happy so and that now touch? she's "Pinochio" string. shape way feeling terribly once any exposed. were terribly But happy, longer you suffered real be first she Hatch. the and Sonia's that Have you she'll she surprising not told be Orin that's was was you I with What it When surprise. know? you sure Samson. Johnson's Sonia Hatch. dainty thing. a of years. sharp mind, courage, not had just thought I a was the Utah, to she's It FM: after confrontation MW: MW: right exposed for was fan a two over no church when I that were have to to it, to know that someones been pulling MW: Ultimately whole FM: people. MW: they put That's her commanded should Yes, MW: We'll FM: And oh like round. hope it's the to it in FM: Yes and of the it. one of ever can might they had I taking am be a that to me made a it I little thing. says it just Phyllis or round oh and little the their, with out seen. It's it the, And believe I That's response going water. to telling write give There to it isn't my the of copy a different And seperate completations writing of different can MW: good me little FM: I'm be to going little a and gave finished. hold haroer. E.R.A. same record pains the got it almost a them on remains water. paragraphs might be of Ensign. those 00 lot a publicity the candle a old hold My daughter-in-law "This in April. in was Yes that know. down the supplement that the church put MW: God and all It same doesn't It of from so. whether well Shakley, helpful opposition is the the a, fear just clamped (Laughter) see. all be don't I excommunication I yes, the all, Certainly FM: might gain, might profit experience themselves. because Yes church the each this answers and for and every about truth thought." thinking ana she it. said, Well if say, "This you." And she I've that. back any -37- to of her. it that But that doesn't is even sensible. MW: They've seemed adopted the right wing argument to wholesale. FM: Absolutely, little of sure MW: old letter. what anything much, this Oh will MW: Thank FM: You And useful Society's files. But like hearing Just the same and say so, I'd like to addition doubt very anyway. ya. END OF TAPE AND -38- thank I'm you. bet this (not here. a be just it's sounds then. else you're sweet to (Laughter). It said is Okay, Historical FM: absolutely. INTERVIEW. sure much you to very the