Betsy Burton, interviewed for the Aileen H. Clyde 20th Century Women's Legacy Archive, 2019

The Aileen H. Clyde 20th Century Women's Legacy Archive oral history project was created to record the personal histories of 20th century women; to record memories and emotions related to historical events and social change processes; and to explore women's participation in and response to social and cultural changes. The project is conducted by Resources for the Study of Social Engagement, a non-profit organization, and is supported in part by the Clyde Family Foundation and by the Aileen H. Clyde 20th Century Women's Legacy Archive at the University of Utah.

Betsy Burton Interviewed by Elisha Buhler Condie for the th Aileen H. Clyde 20 Century Women’s Legacy Archive Special Collections, J. Willard Marriott Library University of Utah February 1, 2019 Betsy Burton Interviewed by Elisha Buhler Condie for the Aileen H. Clyde 20th Century Women’s Legacy Archive Special Collections, J. Willard Marriott Library University of Utah Born: September 4, 1946, Salt Lake City, Utah Parents: Robert Joseph Minton, Sr. and Frances Jackson Holliday Minton Siblings: Susan (Sue) Minton-Edison (Doug) Robert Joseph Minton, Jr. Stephen Alan Minton Husband: Christopher (Kit) L. Burton Children: Amanda Hansen Nicholas Burton The Aileen Clyde Life History Project is conducted by Resources for the Study of Social Engagement, a non-profit organization, and is supported in part by the Clyde Family Foundation, and by the Aileen H. Clyde 20th Century Women’s Legacy Archive at the University of Utah. Elisha Condie conducted this interview. Edited by Dawn Hall Anderson. Footnotes were added by Dawn Anderson and Marie Cornwall and approved by the interviewee. Marie Cornwall prepared the final manuscript. The focus of the interview project was three-fold: 1) to record the personal histories of 20th century women, 2) to record memories and emotions related to historical events and social change processes, and 3) to explore women’s participation in and response to social and cultural change. 2 Interview (February 1, 2019) Elisha Condie (EC): It’s February 1, 2019, and I’m with Betsy Burton. This is Elisha Condie and okay, Betsy, the first question, please tell us and spell your full name, and tell us where and when you were born. Betsy Burton (BB): Well, my legal name is Elizabeth Jane Minton and the name I’m known by, my “grown-up” name, is Betsy Burton. I was born here in Salt Lake in 1946 at Holy Cross Hospital. EC: And what were your parents doing in Salt Lake? BB: My dad was a geologist, so we lived around the Rocky Mountain area. We finally settled here when he left Phillips Petroleum. He was with Phillips Petroleum and they wanted him to go to Bartlesville, Oklahoma, and when he wouldn’t do that, he went to work with my grandfather [Joseph Allen Minton] wild-catting 1—this is the oil industry back then. And so we settled here, and then my mother started working at the Museum of Natural History. She actually started the Docent Program and the Junior Science Academy. 2 EC: No way! The Docent Program is enormous up there. I worked there and seriously we have more docents than any museum. BB: She started it. And she ran it for many years. EC: That’s a time when a lot of women didn’t work outside the home. 1 A wildcatter is an individual who drills wildcat wells, which are exploration oil wells drilled in areas not known to be oil fields. However, wildcat was American slang for any risky business venture by 1838, long before the rise of the petroleum industry. 2 In 1969, the year Frances Minton completed her master’s degree in anthropology, the University of Utah Museum of Natural History was just opening and she helped in its creation, in particular through developing and maintaining two programs, The Junior Science Academy and the Docent Program. As the curator of education, she ran both programs for many years. United States, GenealogyBank Obituaries, 1980-2014, https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKLD-HNTK 3 BB: That’s right, that’s right. She went back to school and got her master’s. She was very bright, and she started there just the year it opened. [1969] EC: And what year was that? BB: Oh, I don’t remember. EC: Were you a little kid when she went back to work? BB: Well, I was maybe going to college. She started in school about the time I was in high school, I think. She started her master’s and did an internship at the Museum while she was working on her master’s, and Jess Jennings 3 hired her and that was it. And she was there for many years. EC: I want to take one step back because you said the word wild-catting and I don’t know what that means. BB: So, you know typically in the oil industry there’re these giant companies like Exxon that hire professionals to find oil and have a very corporate structure, Then there were people, especially in the old days (I don’t know if it goes on or not anymore), people who sort of work for themselves. Dad had been a geologist for many years, and he knew how to find oil. And so they go out on their own. They tramp around Wyoming and Utah and buy up mineral rights, and then drill. Of course, there are lots of dry wells, “dry holes” they call them, for every well that pays, that actually produces oil. So, it’s a good way to go broke! But he and my grandfather didn’t go broke. EC: They made a living on it. That’s so cool. Is your family from Salt Lake? BB: None of them are. None of them. My grandfather came from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. His father was a doctor and he rebelled and kind of ran away. I mean he didn’t run away; he was a 3 Jesse David Jennings (1909–1997) was an American archaeologist and anthropologist and founding director of the Natural History Museum of Utah. Jennings began archaeological excavations in the Midwest and Southeast as a graduate student at the University of Chicago. Jennings took several positions with the National Park Service. In 1948, Jennings left the NPS for the University of Utah, where he taught until his retirement in 1986. In 1963, after a funding and development effort spanning twenty years, Jennings opened the Natural History Museum of Utah at the University of Utah. 4 grown-up. But he married my grandmother [Bessie], who was sixteen, and they ran away together. (And she was just a harridan! My Grandmother Minton was a horrible woman.) Anyway, this is where they ended up. They lived a lot in Wyoming; so did my dad. My mother was from Wyoming, and I’ve got a great picture of her sitting up there in front of a truck—that’s at the geology summer camp in Wyoming in the Snowy Range Mountains near Laramie. EC: So, you were born at Holy Cross and you grew up here. What neighborhood did you grow up in? BB: We lived in Holladay. We lived first on Highland Drive, but way back; we had a house and a barn. And then we moved into a kind of subdivision off Fardown Avenue. But we had a house with its own well; the subdivision had its own well, and there were just a few neighbors who all knew each other. It was one of those kinds of places. That’s where I grew up, and I went to Oakwood School and walked to school every day through the orchards. EC: That’s my next question: tell me what your life was like when you were ten years old. BB: When I was ten years old, well, our neighbors who were actually on Fardown Avenue had a barn and a big pasture, and we were friends with all the kids and my brothers had horses over at my grandparents’ house; they lived nearby on Walker Lane. They, of course, didn’t buy me a horse because I was a girl. EC: Oh no. BB: But I used to ride their horses, the shortest horses, and then every winter they’d turn on the hose and ice down their whole back lawn—it kind of sloped in—and we’d ice skate all winter long. We had a very bucolic childhood. EC: It was kind of rural, right? BB: Very rural. We would ride the horses out to what we’d call the sand dunes Where the gravel pit is now? There’s a big gravel pit; if you take the freeway south, you see the gravel pit. We used to call them the sand dunes, the territory out there, and we would race around the sand dunes. EC: And you went to Oakwood Elementary? 5 BB: Oakwood Elementary. EC: I think that’s still there. It’s a new building but it’s still there? BB: Yeah, it’s the old school. And out at the playground we used to pretend to either be cowboys or Indians, and I’d always be the Indian or I’d be the horse. EC: So you were kind of a tomboy. BB: I was. EC: Were your brothers older or younger? BB: Older. They were two and four years older than me. EC: And was your family religious? BB: No, we were not Mormon. To begin with Mother was a little bit religious: we went to the Episcopal Church and I was actually confirmed at thirteen. But after my mother started studying anthropology she thought, Nah, this isn’t really the truth. EC: Was there a close-by Episcopal Church? BB: Well, we used to go to I think St. James, but they built All Saints up on Foothill when I was older. That’s where I was confirmed. EC: Once she started studying anthropology, were you still a young kid? BB: Yes, I was probably in junior high by then. I was a real reader, and I was already asking lots of questions about all of that. Growing up here non-Mormon you can’t help but ask questions. And one thing that it did for me was all I wanted to do was get good grades and get out of here. That’s all I wanted to do, and so I did. I got good grades. Also, I don’t like people telling me what to do. I didn’t want to go to an Ivy League school, and I didn’t want to go to a place that had fraternities and sororities. I just wanted a place that would accept people with open minds. I was pretty liberal in my own beliefs by then. So I went to a small liberal arts school, Oberlin 4, 4 Oberlin College is a private liberal arts college and conservatory of music in Oberlin, Ohio. It is the oldest coeducational liberal arts college in the United States. In 1835 Oberlin became one of the first colleges in the United States to admit African Americans, and in 1837 the first to admit 6 thinking that I would find like-minded people, but what I found was the same thing you had here, only on the opposite side of the spectrum. You know, all these people who were very lockstepped liberal, which is fine with me, except that I just don’t like being told what to think! EC: You just don’t want them to boss you around. BB: It turned out being not that different than life here. It was interesting. EC: Did you feel isolated as a kid not being LDS? BB: Oh yeah. I did until Oakwood where we had a group of friends. Before I really got into a group of friends at Oakwood, there was nobody to play with. I wasn’t allowed into the neighbors’ houses. EC: Oh no! That’s terrible! BB: Oh, it was terrible. Listen, when I was raising Mandy on Princeton Avenue, the same thing happened. EC: No! BB: She wasn’t allowed in the neighbor’s house across the street because they were good Mormons—there were six of them—and I smoked. Ick! So, anyway, it was terrible but when I got into Oakwood there was a group of us—they were either Jewish or Greek. There were no people of color at our school at all. EC: Holladay still doesn’t. BB: And as I was growing up there were a couple of people who we knew were gay. Everybody accepted everybody else, except Mormons. I mean our group was the anti-Mormon group and then there was the Mormon group. EC: Interesting. And so you were a bookish kid. You got good grades. BB: I was really bookish. EC: Did you have other hobbies? Did you play sports? women. The Oberlin student body has a long history of political activism and a reputation for being notably liberal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberlin_College (accessed 3 February 2020) 7 BB: I rode horses. EC: Even though your parents wouldn’t get you one? Your grandparents? BB: Ultimately, they did; they bought me a horse when I was in high school, and so my friend Deon Hilger (they’re the Tanner family), she— EC: Spell Deon for me. BB: Deon Tanner, and her parents were Barbara and Norm; they’re pretty well known for O.C. Tanner 5. Anyway, so they lived not far from me and we went to the same school. We were really good friends and she had a horse and we used to go riding together. One day we rendezvoused with some boys, and we tied our horses up by a stream. We were having a picnic and the horses got away; and my grandmother accused me of all kinds of things and sold my horse. That was the end of my riding career. EC: You were just having a picnic! BB: Really, we weren’t doing anything nasty in the trees! (laughter) I know, it was funny. EC: Did you go to Olympus Junior and then Olympus? BB: No. Well, I went to Olympus Junior for one year and it was so bad. My brothers had been through before me and my mother was so disgusted that she sent me to Rowland Hall. She said, “This is only for two years. This is to get you through this period.” And honestly, I learned so much at Rowland Hall in two years that I hardly had to study in high school when I went to Olympus. It was academically a really good school. But it was also really kind of cliquey, and I was not part of the in-crowd there. EC: But were they kinder? BB: No. Oh no, they were the opposite. EC: It’s still junior high. 5 Obert Clark Tanner (1904–1993) was a University of Utah professor of philosophy, a philanthropist, and founder of O.C. Tanner Co. The family foundation endowed the University of Utah Obert C. and Grace A. Tanner Humanities Center. 8 BB: No, they were horrible. They were horrible. But then I got to Olympus and my old friends from Oakwood were there. And I made lots of new friends; it was a big enough school that you could just find people. I really had a good time at Olympus. EC: Oh good! Okay and you knew you were going to college, and I’m sure with your mom being … BB: She was adamant that I go to college! EC: Did your parents want you to go somewhere else? BB: Yeah, they wanted me to get out of here too. EC: They were excited for you to go. And you chose Oberlin. So did you know what you wanted to study? BB: Oh, I’ve always wanted to be an English major. I always knew that, and I always knew I didn’t want to teach because I just didn’t have the personality to be a teacher. EC: Did you know what you wanted to do with it? BB: I wanted to be a writer. That’s all I ever wanted to do is be a writer, and it never occurred to me otherwise. I knew I never wanted to go to graduate school because I wanted to be a writer and graduate school would push me toward education, and I didn’t want to teach. So I thought, Oh, maybe I’ll go into publishing. Then I came home, just to ski. Oh, I like to ski too. I loved to ski. EC: Did your parents ski? BB: Dad never skied, but they used to tramp in the hills and hike, and mother did all the JSA [Junior Science Academy] programs where they took all the kids out in the wilderness. She did a lot of that, but she skied too. Deon and I skied growing up, and Deon went to Oberlin with me but she thought Oberlin was too hard and she transferred to Stanford, which she actually said was easier! (laughter) EC: Just to get a break, yeah. Because Stanford is where people go to relax. (laughs) 9 BB: Funny huh, but anyway I came back and I met my first husband, who had extraordinary blue eyes, and I had no business marrying him—but I did! And then we had a child and it became really hard to contemplate leaving here. It just didn’t seem right. EC: Was he from here too? BB: He was from here. He was even from a Mormon family, although he wasn’t a Mormon. He was actually kind of wild, the way non-Mormons become. So after we got divorced, I thought, Well, now what? I had a friend, Ann Berman. We used to get together and talk about books and gardening, and she lived right up here. She had four kids and we just got to be good friends. We had a lot in common. And I started renting a little room where I could go to write because I couldn’t get anything done in the house with the kid and the pets and stuff. EC: You just have this one little girl? BB: Yes, this was before she was in school, and I’d hire a babysitter and go off for a couple of hours. It was where the bookstore is now. My little room was in the old section where the paperback fiction is now. The King’s English Bookshop, which wasn’t then in existence. EC: Was it just a home? BB: No, there were three offices for rent. (The realtor was Bob Polcha and he was kind of a womanizer, I think. He kind of cut a wide swath.) So I rented one office, and I talked Ann into renting the one next door. We were both working on really bad novels and would meet for coffee to put off writing, and we started talking about how much fun it would be to have a bookstore where instead of just shelves on the walls, there would be places to sit and browse. We both loved Zion’s. (That was Sam Weller’s Zion Bookstore. 6) But you would walk in and there were no chairs, no way to browse. That’s the way all bookstores were then. And so we thought, Wouldn’t it be great to have a bookstore where there were chairs in every room and maybe a bench by the desk where people could sit down? And we would talk about 6 Now relocated in Trolley Square and renamed Weller Book Works, the bookstore was founded by Gustav and Margaret Weller as Zion Bookstore in 1929. Over the years the bookstore, which boasted rare, used, and new books, has changed locations several times but was known for over fifty years as Sam Weller’s Books and Sam Weller’s Zion Bookstore. https://www.wellerbookworks.com/store-history (accessed 3 February 2020) 10 books to our customers all day long. And we thought, Well, we could do this and we could write in the back room and come out when the bell tingled. That was our theory (chuckle) before we knew anything about business. We didn’t even know there was an American Booksellers Association. But we found out from an old friend at Zion’s [John Schow] that is right about the existence of Books in Print, which consisted of six massive volumes, three author and three title volumes, each with this just miniscule print. So we went up to our Wyoming cabin in the Snowy Range with the three author volumes and just read them and put on 3 x 5 cards the books that we thought we’d like to have in our store! (laughter) It was a very unique way of starting a bookstore. EC: And you were still married? BB: No, no. No, this was after I was divorced. EC: How long were you married? BB: Four years, but we were married about a year and a half and then I had Mandy and we moved up to Kaysville (we had horses), and by the time she was a year old it was clear to me that he was somewhere else. He was. He was having an affair as it turns out, although I didn’t find out for a couple of years. But I could tell that he was gone. So we worked on the divorce, and it was really hard on me because I’m kind of a loyal person and it never occurred to me that we weren’t married for life. EC: Oh, that’s terrible. And you had a baby! BB: Yeah, I had a little baby. EC: What year was this? BB: Mandy was born in 1972 so this would have been ’73 when he started to leave. We didn’t get the divorce until later. By the time we decided we were going to get a divorce, I had a friend, Chris Papanikolas, whose γιαγιά [grandma] lived on Princeton Avenue, and she was just moving into a nursing home. So they sold me her house and that’s where Mandy and I lived for nine years. So, that’s where we were living and that’s when Ann and I became friends and that’s when we decided that this would be a good idea. EC: It’d be fun to have a bookstore! 11 BB: Right. And then we both agreed to wait. I mean I couldn’t even contemplate it until Mandy was in first grade because in kindergarten she was only gone about two hours. It wasn’t helpful. EC: So this would have been 1978 maybe? BB: No, it was 1977 that we started it. That’s when we went to the cabin and made our cards up. We typed purchase orders from the cards and we organized them by publisher (we figured that out), and opened up accounts. My ex-husband owned a lumber yard, “Standard Builders,” so he helped with the lumber for the bookcases. EC: Did you have to take out loans to get the capital to buy all these books? BB: No, we each put up $5,000. And it was just so much fun, and the first week I think we made maybe $400? I don’t know, but it took forever to get it started because we were in this little neighborhood. Although it turned out to be a great move because in the ‘90s when the chains came, their M. O. was to move next to an independent bookstore and put them out of business; they couldn’t get close to us because we were in this neighborhood business district. And the other thing that turned out to be a great move was a year after we opened and we were just gaga over this business, the landlord tried to date me, and he was kind of pushy—and icky. And I owned my house outright, so I went to the bank and took out a mortgage on my house and bought the building. Which was just to get out of a date! (laughs) Well, it turned out to be the smartest single business move I’ve ever made because right now the biggest threat to independent businesses is rent. It’s gone up so much! What happens is that independent businesses typically will go into a run-down neighborhood and they’ll anchor a renaissance. You know, they’ll come in and then a restaurant will move in, and then other businesses—just like what happened to us. EC: You were the first little business. BB: We were the first. EC: Now it’s quite a fun little corner. BB: It’s one of two that the city brags about: 9th and 9th; and 15th and 15th. So that’s typical, the renaissance of a run-down neighborhood. But then when that happens, what happens next is the landlords of course get greedy. They can charge bigger rents. Then the chains move in, like 12 Starbucks did in our area. So suddenly rents escalate and then the small independents can’t afford the rent. So that’s typical of what happens to small businesses across the country. EC: Are you glad to see Starbucks go from there? BB: Yes. They didn’t belong in our neighborhood business district. Not at all. EC: Now just to see Einstein’s [Bagels] go? Is that the next one?! BB: Shh! EC: Oh, no, strike that! BB: No, you don’t have to. I really don’t want the chains. EC: Did you ever see push-back from the neighborhood, like “We don’t want a bookstore right here. There’s too many cars!”? BB: Oh yes. It was all over parking. There was an incident—now let’s see, we opened in’77 and Ann was there for three years. She had a bad back and also, she couldn’t see this being viable long term for her. You know I had alimony; and she did too, but she didn’t put in an inflation clause, which was a silly thing not to have done. But she was married to Dan Berman who was a very powerful attorney. EC: So he knew how to write it. BB: Yeah, he did. Also, she had four kids, so she just didn’t see being in this long term. It was clear to her that this wasn’t going to be okay. And then she had a really bad back and she had to have back surgery. So we agreed at that point that this partnership was probably not going to live on past that point. She just didn’t see how it could. So I bought her out for essentially what she put in, plus a little. And we also had some partnership problems. We actually went to a psychiatrist together and had counseling (laughs) because I felt like I was doing all the work. Ann was wonderful with customers and she had this big expansive personality, but I’d take home boxes of books at night and after Mandy went to bed, I’d unpack them and put them back in the boxes and clear them, and so when we went into therapy I said, “Okay, so now who pays the bills?” She said, [her tone defensive], “Well, you do.” 13 And I said, “Who receives all the books?” She said, “Well, you do.” And I said, “Well, who does all the ordering?” “Well, you do—but I am the . . ..” And I said, “But you know I’m not a bad bookseller myself, Ann!” (laughs) Anyway, we had some trouble. EC: That’s cute that you wanted to stay friends and said, “We need to go to therapy!” BB: Well, yes, and we still are really good friends. I mean we weathered that and we’re still good friends. But anyway, so then I ran the bookstore by myself for I don’t know however many years it was until . . . let’s see, Kit and I got married in ’82. EC: With your little girl and did she just come to the bookstore after school? BB: Yeah. Well, she could walk one direction home if I was home and one direction to the bookstore if I was there, and either way it was just a couple blocks. So it was great until third grade when two things happened. One, she had to go to the bathroom and the teacher wouldn’t let her and she wet her pants; and the other one was she needed to know whether to walk to the bookstore or home, and they wouldn’t let her use the phone! I found her crying on the front lawn and I jerked her out and put her Rowland Hall. I thought, Nobody can do this! Anyway, so when Kit and I got married, I said … EC: Tell me Kit’s name. BB: It’s Christopher Burton, but Kit is what he goes by, He wanted to have another kid and I said, “Oh come on. I’ve got a thirteen-year-old.” (She was ten when we got married.) “And I don’t want to start all over.” EC: “I’ve been out of diapers for a long time!” BB: Yeah, a long time, and he said, “Look, I make a lot of money. We can hire lots of help. It won’t be what it was with Mandy. You being a single parent” So then we had Nicks (with an s. He insists on that), and Nicks is a kid with profound disabilities. He was born profoundly brain damaged; he has intractable seizures. They said he’d never walk or talk. He actually walks and 14 talks and plays basketball and delivers food at the food bank and books at the King’s English with his caregiver, but we’ve never solved the seizure problem. He goes to the Mayo Clinic frequently. Easy it wasn’t! (laughs) So, anyway, in many ways he’s the light of my life, but he’s been very hard. We’ve started a group home with him over by Judge [Judge Memorial High School, in Salt Lake City]. He has an autistic cousin [Joey] who’s there also, and we run a staff. (I know how to staff—I’m pretty good at that now, after all these years.) And they’re very happy because they’re grown men and they feel independent in a way they hadn’t before. So that worked well. Anyway, so that’s when I decided I needed another partner. And I tried a couple out, and they didn’t work very well. One had worked at the University and we were both really pretty, oh, I don’t know if you want to say “bossy” but we knew our own minds. So we kind of clashed. But then Barbara Hoagland came to work at the bookstore. I mean she agreed to buy in and be a partner. It was a good time in her life. We’d known each other before and we were the perfect match. She’s as hooked on books as I am, she’s utterly competent and is very good at bookkeeping but she’s cautious, she’s orderly, and I’m chaotic and hyper and I love to create new things and sometimes I don’t think of the consequences. So we were just a great match. EC: I want that in a partner too! I want one of those! BB: It is wonderful. It’s wonderful. So we were together for a long time and then she and her husband started wanting to travel, and in the mean time we had hired Anne Holman, who is my present partner. She’d lived in Chicago but had grown up here. She’d gotten a divorce. She had two little kids and she was working here part-time and then she started working more and more full time as the kids got older, and now in the fullness of times she will, when I retire, be The King’s English. And she runs all the events. I don’t do any of that anymore except occasionally if an author comes who I’ve known for many years and they expect me to be there, I go. EC: They are fun events. BB: Oh yes, we have great events; she’s done a fabulous job. So, that’s the history of partnerships. The business thing that we did? You know when the chains came in, our city and our state... EC: And “chains” mean Barns & Noble. 15 BB: And Borders. But chains in general, across the spectrum. The city sold themselves to chains. They gave them all kinds of tax incentives, financing, every kind of deal you could imagine. Tried to woo them to come in and put us out of business. What they didn’t get at the time is that locally owned businesses hire local everything, and so the money stays here and recirculates in the economy, and our tax money stays here too. The chains, they only pay minimum wages. Everything else goes out. And with Amazon, everything goes out. They don’t even pay minimum wage here. They don’t pay anything. It all goes out of state. So, over the years we decided that we had to educate the city, the municipalities—you know, county and city government—and so first of all we started Vest Pocket. 7 This would have been … EC: Vest Pocket? BB: It’s a business alliance—it’s still in existence although now it’s called the Utah Independent Business Coalition—and our name back then “vest” means close to our heart. That was our idea. Originally it was me and Lorraine Miller who owned Cactus and Tropical, and Riley [Cutler] owned Wasatch Touring, and Jorge Fiero who at the time just owned Rico’s. He now owns Frida Bistro too. EC: And did you just get to know them because … BB: Just being around in small business. I think how it started was Lorraine called me and said, “I am so mad at the city,” because she had a plant rental sideline, and they gave the contract to somebody at lowest price with no attention to how well they did the job. You know, just bid it out. (And I think probably all their plants died.) But anyway, we then organized. We were the third city in the country to do this. The first one was Boulder, Colorado, then Austin and us about at the same time. And we started this movement going and we started meeting with the mayor, who of course didn’t listen to us. EC: What year was this? 7 The name Vest Pocket was chosen by founding member Lorraine Miller, the former owner of Cactus & Tropicals, because it brought to mind something small and close to the heart. This spirit of collaboration and support led to a broader program of educational events, networking functions, and public policy initiatives. In 2018 Vest Pocket was changed to Utah Independent Business Coalition. https://utahindependentbusiness.org/history/ (accessed 6 February 2020) 16 BB: Well, I think it was in the early ‘90s because we started Local First about ten years after Vest Pocket. EC: Local First I am familiar with. I see that everywhere. BB: Well, I started that with Dave Nimkin 8 and Kinde Nebeker. We started Local First because Vest Pocket was a business alliance and so it was like any business alliance: you had members; you got a director or you did it yourself; and you just had to collect dues. That was your main occupation and you didn’t have enough time to do what you wanted to be doing. So, we thought we needed an educational organization that could be a 501(c)3 because then we’d get donations to support it and its whole aim was to educate the public, locally owned businesses themselves (who needed to be educated), and city and county governments. EC: What it means to spend our dollar, where our money goes. 9 BB: That’s exactly right. EC: We don’t know that. I didn’t know that. BB: And about how important it is to the community because when you think about a locally owned business, we all—all the owners and even the primaries in our businesses—are on boards all over the city, we’re volunteering our time, we’re doing book fairs, we’re just part of the community, and chains don’t do any of that. So, if you get rid of the locals, you don’t have that community involvement and your economy really suffers. 8 In 2005, Betsy Burton (owner of the The King’s English Bookshop and one of the founders of UIBC formerly Vest Pocket) along with David Nimkin (founder of the Utah Microenterprise Fund) formed Local First Utah a 501(c)3 non-profit organization dedicated to promoting the merits of buying locally. Today, UIBC and Local First Utah continue to work in collaboration on issues of shared interest. https://utahindependentbusiness.org/history/ 9 Shifting just 10% of your spending to locally owned businesses will keep $1.3 billion in Utah’s economy. Local First is committed to promoting the economic prosperity of locally owned businesses. We focus on building connections, collaborating with government agencies and educating communities statewide on the value of buying locally. https://www.localfirst.org/home (accessed 6 February 2020) 17 EC: And the city and county, they’re not giving independent local businesses the same tax incentives as they give chains? BB: Well, so over time as we started educating them, what they started doing was—the city particularly but the county too (Ben’s been great at the county)—first recognizing what we do for the community and then the city organized these neighborhood business districts. (Our present mayor 10 has let them all go, I might add.) But for the ten years, the last two years of Rocky’s reign, shall we say, and then the eight years of Ralph [Becker] 12, we really had good support. This was really a thriving idea. We had ten business districts, the city funded them, we met, we did things to help each of the districts. EC: It did seem like things were very clearly delineated. Suddenly Sugarhouse had very individualistic bus benches, and there were signs about Sugarhouse, and 9th and 9th had signs, and things had a very distinct flavor. BB: And that was all Ralph [Becker]. So David Nimkin had originally worked with Rocky. He was the deputy mayor and he and I heard Laury Hammel, who came here from one of the two national organizations. 13 We were at the meeting listening to him, and we decided we’d just do this new model, that it would be much more effective, and it has been. It’s been amazing. We’ve spread the word. Our whole mission was really to “spread the word,” like a gospel kind of thing, you know. EC: I’ve seen the graphics. I love the graphic designs, and it’s still active. BB: Yes, it is. It has a new board, but they just went the way of membership and I think they’re going to be very sorry, but you know I’m too old. I can’t keep doing all this stuff. EC: So, this business that’s been a huge part of your life, have you ever resented it? Have you ever thought, I just want to take a step away from this and go on a trip? 10 Jackie Biskupski, Dem., Salt Lake City Mayor, 2016-2020 12 Ralph Becker, Dem., Salt Lake City Mayor, 2008-2016 13 The term Independent Business Alliance refers to local affiliates of the American Independent Business Alliance (AMIBA). Laury Hammel is Executive Director of local affiliate SBN Massachusetts in Boston. 18 BB: No. This is really interesting. This was in the ‘90s, I think? It was about when Sally Smith opened A Women’s Place, which was fine when it was up in Lamplighter, but when it moved to Foothill it became really stiff competition, especially because she did stuff like wrote to our best customers. (She had worked for me. My shrink told me about her and had said, “You would be great partners,” but instead she had gathered up all the information that she needed and went off and opened her own, which you can’t stop anybody from doing, but writing mash notes to my customers is taking it a little further.) So we had her up there, 14 we had Barnes & Noble in Sugarhouse, which isn’t very far away, and a big Borders 15 here. So we were in like a perfect storm back then. That’s about when we opened Vest Pocket. EC: And did you notice any kind of hit to your business? BB: Oh yeah. It had been going up twenty percent every year and it just flattened, and then it went down a little. Those were the times that it became harder and harder, and then I had Nick, so it was a perfect storm that way too. So I hired a person (who shall remain nameless) to come in as kind of a quasi-partner then because we needed the money and because she was an accountant. But she had a special needs kid too and I guess what she thought was that she could come, and we could bond over our special needs kids behind the desk and talk about our kids all day. And I said, “You know, one of the great things about this store is I come to work laden down, I’ve had Nick at the emergency room, I feel like shooting myself, I walk in here, I start talking about books to our customers and this is the world for eight hours.” And I said, “I don’t 14 “A Woman's Place Bookstore, an 11-year effort to bring women and books together, is closing. In recent years, it has struggled to compete against superstores owned by national chains. A Woman's Place lost money in 1996 and 1997 and it is closing this month. [June 1998] A Woman's Place was an outgrowth of a class on contemporary women authors that Sally Smith taught at Judge Memorial Catholic High School. The class's success suggested a market might exist in Salt Lake City for a women's bookstore. A Woman's Place once had stores in Foothill Village, Cottonwood Mall, Park City and Draper. Sales peaked in 1993.” https://www.deseret.com/1998/6/11/19385192/woman-s-place-bookstore-to-close-doors-thismonth (accessed 7 February 2020) 15 Borders Books, another big megastore chain similar to Barnes and Noble, went out of business in 2011, closing over 400 bookstores nationwide. https://business.time.com/2011/07/19/5reasons-borders-went-out-of-business-and-what-will-take-its-place/ https://www.npr.org/2011/07/19/138514209/why-borders-failed-while-barnes-and-noblesurvived (accessed 8 February 2020) 19 want to be in that other world here. And besides that, we can’t do this behind the desk. We’re behind the desk to look up and say, ‘Hi, how are you?! How’s your day? What can I do to help you?’ Customer service is everything at The King’s English; I mean it’s everything! If we don’t convince customers that they’re going to come in and feel like they’re in their living room and meet their best friends on the floor and that they’re part of this community, we’ve failed them.” EC: That’s true! My friend was just telling me that we go there for Margaret, the woman in the kid’s department who we think is a magician and can find us whatever we need. BB: And knows you. EC: Yes! I feel like knows us and I can say a, b, c, and d as a character, and she’ll say, “Okay,” and she’ll walk around and pull five books out. It’s just like a game! It’s the funnest. BB: Yeah, it is. So part of it is the books, which I need to get to in a minute, but part of it is the place. EC: It’s an escape. BB: But for the store as a business thing, this is who we are. We can’t stand behind the desk and talk. Well, when I said that, in the gentlest way I knew how, she was furious and ultimately she quit. She kept our books in the basement for I don’t know how long; I mean it offended her mortally, I know. I know. I tried to be careful but obviously I wasn’t careful enough. But that experience was a way of me understanding and appreciating how much this store is my haven and my savior. I mean I adore my kids, but it’s good to have . . . EC: All mothers need that. BB: It’s really true. So one of the things . . . (phone rings) Oh, this might be Nicks’ doctor. Excuse me for one second. (interview paused) EC: Okay, I turned it back on. Well that’s so nice to know that you’ve never regretted being in business, that it’s always been a happy place for you. BB: It’s always been a happy place, and it’s really a happy place for all of our booksellers. We hire for two things: one is knowledge, that they read a lot, and the other one is that they like people. You can’t work there if you don’t like people because people who don’t like people can’t 20 acquire that trait. It isn’t really a learned skill. I mean you can learn how to perfect it, but the actually relating to people, either you like it or you don’t. EC: I’ve often thought, I want to work here! But then because I have two little girls and I have to go home at three. It’s so hard to find . . . BB: Our shifts are nine to three! EC: Are they really? I really want to do it. BB: We’ve always adjusted because we’ve always had part-time mothers. That’s been part of our lifeblood at the store, you know. EC: It’s the trickiest thing with my husband who passed away, and for my kids . . . BB: You’re it. EC: Yeah. BB: Yes, I totally understand that. Don’t rule it out entirely. There are two pieces of all of this that I really need to talk about, and one is the work I’ve done with the American Booksellers Association, but the other piece is originally that as an only child, books were everything to me. I used to read every night with a flashlight under the sheets. EC: And what did you read as a kid? Kid stuff? Or were you reading … BB: Kid stuff. What happened was, when I was six, I knew how to read but I wasn’t reading as like a passion. Then we got a TV and my brothers were out there watching The Lone Ranger 16 but I got scarlet fever and I was in quarantine, and so I started reading, really reading. I started 16 The Lone Ranger was the highest-rated television program on ABC in the early 1950s and its first true "hit" The fictional story line maintains that a patrol of six Texas Rangers is massacred, with only one member surviving. The "lone" survivor thereafter disguises himself with a black mask and travels with Tonto throughout Texas and the American West to assist those challenged by the lawless elements. A silver mine supplies The Lone Ranger with the name of his horse as well as the funds required to finance his wandering lifestyle and the raw material for his signature bullets. At the end of most episodes, after the Lone Ranger and Tonto leave, someone asks the sheriff or other person of authority who the masked man was. The person then responds that it was the Lone Ranger, who is then heard yelling "Hi-Yo Silver, away!" as he and Tonto ride away on their horses. 21 reading horse stories, dog stories, and graduated to Nancy Drew 17, and I became a book-a-holic instantly, just like that. In sixth grade when we were all supposed to make a list of all the books we’d read, I had a hundred and some books, and my teacher accused me of lying! I brought a note from my mother that said, (a) “She isn’t a liar,” and (b) “How dare you!” EC: Good for her! BB: So, that interest and that wanting to write myself has always been a part of who I thought of as myself, as you know. So, then I went away [to college] and then I got married and couldn’t go into publishing, and then we started the bookstore. EC: Did you continue to write on your own? BB: Well, we were writing those bad novels. EC: Yeah, your bad novels. (laughs) Did you get to finish those? BB: No, because the bookstore was so overwhelmingly time-consuming. EC: Well, I would think so. BB: And then I had Nicks, so we both . . . But I’ve always gone [on writer’s breaks]. My husband has a farm up in Francis 18 and one of my good friends is Ann Cannon who does the column in the Tribune. 19 17 Nancy Drew is a fictional character, a sleuth in an American mystery series created by publisher Edward Stratemeyer as the female counterpart to his Hardy Boys series. The character first appeared in 1930. The books are ghostwritten by a number of authors and published under the collective pseudonym Carolyn Keene. 18 Francis is a rural town on the western edge of Summit County, Utah. The population was 698 at the 2000 census. 19 Ann (A.E.) Cannon is an award-winning writer of fiction for children and young adults. She is also a newspaper columnist, creative writing teacher and the mother of five sons. Her first young adult novel, Cal Cameron by Day, Spider-Man by Night, won the Delacorte Press Prize for an outstanding first young adult novel. Since then, she has published a number of books, including a collection of her newspaper columns. https://www.kingsenglish.com/localauthors/287256 (accessed 8 February 2020) Ann also works as a part-time bookseller at The King’s English Bookshop. 22 And this is an interesting sideline on Mormon/non-Mormon too. We used to ask people if they wanted coffee or tea, which was a way of eliminating Mormons you know! And then gradually, finally my passion for community prevailed. I love Ann Cannon and we started hiring Mormons. They were liberal Mormons, but we just thought if we’re going to talk about community, we have to be a community. EC: Sure, they’re everywhere! BB: And they are some of my best book sellers! I mean Sally Larkin is just amazing, and Ann is amazing. Nathan isn’t a Mormon but Vivian in the kids’ room is Mormon and she’s really amazing. Anyway, so we are a community. But so Ann and I would periodically go on writer’s breaks. I wrote a mystery but I didn’t ever get it published. I’ve still got it and I’m still thinking of going back to it. Then I wrote part of a book about my brother. My oldest brother died of some viral illness; it wasn’t a neurological condition. It was a virus, with symptoms something like Jakob-Creutsfeldt 20—mad cow disease. He died at age thirty-four. I was thirty. So I wrote and worked on books through the years. Then I wrote a book about the King’s English. Do you know about that? EC: I don’t know about that. BB: Well, that will give you all of the stuff in here and then some. It’s the history of, it’s the King’s English story of an independent book seller. 21 20 Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD) a degenerative brain disorder. It is marked by rapid mental deterioration, usually within a few months, that leads to dementia and, ultimately, death. CJD captured public attention in the 1990s when some people in the United Kingdom developed a variant form of the disease — variant CJD (vCJD) or, commonly, “mad cow” disease — after eating meat from diseased cattle. However, "classic" Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease hasn't been linked to contaminated beef. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/creutzfeldt-jakobdisease/symptoms-causes/syc-20371226 (accessed 8 February 2020) 21 Betsy Burton, The King's English: Adventures of an Independent Bookseller (Salt Lake City: Gibbs-Smith, 2005). Betsy Burton, owner of The King's English Bookshop in Salt Lake City, has been a bookseller for nearly thirty years, and a passionate book lover all her life. Her modestly sized yet widely respected shop has hosted authors such as E. L. Doctorow, Isabel Allende, Jon Krakauer, Margaret Atwood, Octavio Paz, and Sue Grafton, and she has built a reputation as a passionate purveyor of the written word in a world where stores like hers are a dying breed. See Appendix for an excerpt as well as a fuller description of the book’s contents. 23 EC: Oh, I have heard of that. BB: So it tells the story of the bookshop. There’s a chapter on fiction writers with funny stories about people like John Mortimer and Isabel Allende, and then there’s one on poets, and there’s one on mystery writers, and there’s a chapter on independent businesses and the fight we’re fighting, and so on. So that’s what that does. I wrote that in a year. I didn’t go to work until 11:00: I got up in the morning and walked my dog and after walking up into the mountains somehow it happens that on the way down, when you’re not fighting for breath, everything crystalizes and you find yourself thinking clearly about the book. And then I’d come home and write for two hours as fast as I could and then I’d go to work. Yeah, it was fun! EC: And so you don’t have, I hope you don’t have, any plans to retire? BB: Well yes, but in a measured way. So the other thing that happened to me is I became more active in the book business. First, we had a board here called Intermountain Independent Booksellers Association. It was like Deseret [Book] and Zions [Sam Weller’s] and us, and we kind of melded the Mormon/non-Mormon thing there. We all were good friends. Linda Brummett from BYU [Brigham Young University Bookstore] was a fabulous book person. She was amazing. Then we melded with the Mountains and Plains, which is a bigger region, and I was on that board. 22 EC: What does the board discuss or do? 22 Mountains & Plains Independent Booksellers Association MPIBI https://www.mountainsplains.org/about-mpiba/ (accessed 8 February 2020) While we are called a “bookseller” association, we have always taken an expansive view of that term, and our membership includes publishers, sales reps, wholesalers, and other industry professionals. WHAT WE DO • Provide forums and channels for communication, information exchange, professional development, and continuing education at local, regional, and national levels • Provide information and services for the benefit and advancements of independent booksellers. • Promote best practices in publishing, distribution, promotion, and the selling of books. • Promote and defend freedom of speech and of the press as guaranteed by the First Amendment. • Promote and work for fair, competitive practices in the book industry. 24 BB: We hold a tradeshow, so that’s big, and we give out awards. The Mountain West Awards. But mainly we meet and educate. Education panels are a big part of what we do. So then I got on the board of the ABA, the American Booksellers, and I was on that board for six years, and that’s really important work because we’re fighting Amazon, we’re fighting e-fairness, and we’re doing that at a local level and at a national level. We’re hooked up with other retailers to do that. Stacy Mitchell 23 is like the guru of that [small business economics] world, and my papers have a lot of that stuff. I’ve given some speeches on that. That’s been another side of my life’s work, all of that battle. So that was six years on the board, and then the last two years when I should have been off the board, I became president. I was president for two years and that was intense. I just didn’t have time for anything but that. So, I gave to Anne [Holman] the work of running the store, and when I was in town, I would meet with her Thursday mornings for four hours and we’d go over the money very thoroughly and the schedule at the desk, which is crucial to success. Unlike a lot of booksellers, I think it’s one of the most important things. As I’ve said, what happens when someone walks in that door is all important. It has to do with whether we’re nice, it has to do with if we have three people on the floor—one roaming, one at the desk, and one in the kid’s room. There has to be someone of my age or a little younger, somebody that’s a lot younger, someone male, someone female. EC: It’s true, you want to find somebody you can identify with. I agree. 23 “Stacy Mitchell on the New Localism: Time to Up the Game” On the opening day of BookExpo America 2016 in Chicago, Stacy Mitchell, a nationally recognized expert on small business and healthy local economies, delivered the plenary talk “Meeting the New Localism Challenge: Protecting and Promoting Communities and Local Economies.” In her talk, Mitchell . . . gave an overview of key policy issues and advocacy goals. Mitchell’s overriding message was simple and direct: Even as independent booksellers and other Main Street businesses are seeing gains, it’s imperative that significant challenges are met head on. Providing a few highlights of the localism movement’s growth, Mitchell reported that . . . those businesses in communities with Local First campaigns are seeing a significant increase in sales and are reporting many benefits, such as new customers, more media attention, and more attention from elected officials. The result of more elected officials understanding the importance of a healthy local economy has been such “policy victories” as the growing number of states that have passed sales tax fairness laws, Mitchell noted. https://www.bookweb.org/news/stacy-mitchell-new-localism-time-game-33743 25 BB: And to put that together as a schedule is a real puzzle. EC: Interesting. It’s like a story problem in math. BB: Yeah, it is. EC: I hate those! BB: Yes, me too. (laughs) So, anyway, to do those two things I just said to Anne, “Okay, I’m going to step in if I see anything going wrong with either of those, and we’re going to go over them thoroughly every time, every week. Then you’re going to call me if there’s a big problem, and other than that I’m just going to dart in from time to time. I’m not going to be on the floor. Which was a huge change for me. And for a while I kept Saturdays, but you know that last two years, there were five board meetings a year and then besides board meetings, we would meet with publishers twice a year, and I would also have to meet with Oren [Teicher]. He is the CEO [of ABA] 24. I mean I was just gone all the time. So Anne was doing it. EC: And it has been okay? BB: She’s done a great job. We’ve been a little crosswise just on one or two things. For me, cash flow is just an integral part of my being. I would walk in every morning and look at the tape from yesterday. I always knew where we were, and Anne just looked at it as something somebody else did. She said, “Why can’t someone else?” And I said, “Anne, at this store alone we’ve had two people rob us blind, and every store in the IBC,” which is this other book organization, “at least two thirds of them have been.” EC: Really? Employees you mean? 24 “Oren Teicher, CEO of the American Booksellers Association, wasn’t surprised that the stories about independent bookstores declining or ‘dying’ were overstated. ‘We are still here because stores play a real role in their community, and tens of times a day they are putting the right book into someone’s hand. Independent stores have always been lauded for being a part of their community, providing a personal touch, for knowing their customers, for being able to provide that much-needed curation and discovery.’” Erin L. Cox, “How Independent Bookstores Are Thriving in the Digital Age,” Publishing Perspectives (January 22, 2016) https://publishingperspectives.com/2016/01/independent-bookstores-thrive-in-digital-age/ (accessed 8 February 2020) 26 BB: Yes, employee theft. So you have to know. You can’t depend on an employee to know. You are the check in the check-and-balance system. So she’s gradually integrating that into her person—(laughs) resisting all the way! EC: Some of us, that is not our strength. BB: Yeah, right, it isn’t hers. And the same with scheduling: she tends to be more cavalier about it just because she thinks all of the booksellers are equal, and I say, “No, they’re not! They’re not.” So. Those are the two things. EC: You’ve had a lot more experience with that. Now, I’m dying to know, and this isn’t a question I’ve ever asked anyone else, well, first I would really love to know (and this is hard to ask) but not your favorite top ten authors or top ten books, but who are your favorite secret trashy books? Like if I’m just sick and I just want to read this mental trash? BB: Mysteries. I don’t like science fiction. I find it too threatening. I’ve never much cared for the romance genre. That’s one that Ann Cannon adores! (laughter) Oh yeah, we laugh at each other about our private tastes. EC: Are you more of a cozy mystery, like Agatha Christie 25, or do you like gruesome, like . . . ? BB: I don’t like gruesome, but I no longer particularly like cozy. But I’ll tell you, when I can’t sleep at night, one of the rooms in the house, in the library over there, is all mysteries, and when I can’t sleep at night, I may end up there because when you are a bookseller sometimes they give you all these new books to preview—these are prepublication copies—and there are a lot that aren’t that good that people have told you are good. So you’re lying there in bed and you can’t sleep at night and you start to read one, and you say, “Oh shit,” and you throw it across the room. And after about three of those, you go downstairs (chuckle) to the mystery room. So I do like the classic English mysteries, not necessarily cozies but well-written and novelistic ones, like P. D. James. 26 P.D. James I think is the best. I mean, I love her. I used to like Elizabeth 25 Agatha Mary Clarissa Christie (1890–1976) was an English writer known for her 66 detective novels and 14 short story collections, particularly those revolving around fictional detectives Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple. And Then There Were None is Christie's best-selling novel, with 100 million sales to date. 27 George 27 but nobody edits her and she’s a bit longwinded, I think. I like American but I don’t like serial killers. I think it’s an excuse not to even know anything about your characters, you know? The whole thing that the book turns on is a serial killer, so they’re not novelistic, and I like novelistic mysteries. If I’m not reading a good novel, I want to read a novelistic mystery, which is the best form of escape. I call Donna Leon 28 “liquid heroin,” not that I know what liquid heroin feels like, but Leon is my brand. EC: I’m going to write that down for my own self. I was a Nancy Drew kid also. I love mysteries. I think that grows from being a Nancy Drew kid. BB: It does! Absolutely. Donna Leone’s main character is Inspector Brunetti and they’re all set in Venice. He is in the police department, and it’s totally corrupt. He’s married to a woman who was a Henry James scholar, very literary, but she’s also the best cook in the world—so you really know these are great Italian recipes. But it’s not cutesy at all. He’s a very cynical man and the cases can be dark, but they’re not serial killers. They are really interesting, they’re well-plotted, and there are lots of them, more than twenty, so you can read them forever if you like them. And she regularly does one a year. So I love those. I love John le Carré. 29 I think he’s one of the best novelists of our time actually. I love Kate Atkinson 30, mysteries and non-mysteries alike, I love. Norwegian by Night is a great mystery 26 P. D. James (1920-2014) was an English crime writer. She rose to fame for her series of detective novels starring police commander and poet Adam Dalgliesh. 27 Elizabeth George is an American crime writer. The Inspector Lynley Mysteries, a popular British crime drama series broadcast 2001-2008 on BBC One, is based on her novels. The protagonist, Detective Inspector Thomas Lynley, 8th Earl of Asherton, who is assigned to Scotland Yard, finds himself paired with Detective Sergeant Barbara Havers. In addition to the tensions involved in solving murder cases, the series is built on clashes of personality, gender, and class: Lynley is a polished man and a peer of the realm, and Havers is an untidy woman from a working-class background. 28 Donna Leon (born 1942, in New Jersey) is the American author of a series of crime novels set in Venice, Italy, featuring the fictional hero Commissario Guido Brunetti. Death at La Fenice (1992) is Book 1 in the Inspector Brunetti series. 29 David John Moore Cornwell (born 1931), better known by the pen name John le Carré, is a British author of espionage novels. During the 1950s and 1960s, he worked for both the Security Service (MI5) and the Secret Intelligence Service (MI6). His third novel, The Spy Who Came in 28 too. And I love Michael Ondaatje 31 and his newest book has a kind of mystery in it. But I love his books. I loved early Isabel Allende. 32 I loved House of Spirits, loved it. There were two or three books in that time, and now they’re fun to read but she’s writing too fast and they’ve been a little bit shallow until her new one, Long Petal of the Sea, which is fabulous. EC: They’re very different now. Ripper (2014) 33 was very different from her other books. BB: Well, that was very different than anything she’s written before. That was terrible. That was awful. But even her books like The Japanese Lover (2016), they’re just a little too on the romance side and not deep enough. She was very deep and very political in her early work, and it was much more interesting, I thought Long Petal to the Sea is more like that. She still comes here. We haven’t had her for a few years but she’s come to the store eight times. EC: Wow! Is she a nice person? BB: Oh, she’s the best! You know she has a foundation that rescues women who are being trafficked around the world? She rescues them. She’s really committed socially. Yes, she’s a very nice woman. And all that money from these books goes into that foundation, so more power to her! from the Cold (1963), became an international best-seller and remains one of his best-known works. 30 Kate Atkinson (born 1951) is an English writer of novels, plays and short stories. She is known for creating the Jackson Brodie series of detective novels, which has been adapted into the BBC series Case Histories. She won the Whitbread Book of the Year prize in 1995 for her first novel Behind the Scenes at the Museum. (a “non-mystery”) 31 Michael Ondaatje (born 1943 in Sri Lanka) is a Canadian poet, fiction writer, literary critic, and editor. He is the recipient of multiple literary awards and is perhaps best known for his nationally and internationally successful novel The English Patient (1992). 32 Isabel Allende (born 1942) is a Chilean writer. Allende, whose works sometimes contain aspects of the genre magical realism, is known for novels such as The House of the Spirits (La casa de los espíritus, 1982) and City of the Beasts (La ciudad de las bestias, 2002). Allende's novels are often based upon her personal experience and historical events and pay homage to the lives of women, while weaving together elements of myth and realism. 33 Ripper (2014) is described on Amazon as an “atmospheric, fast-paced mystery involving a brilliant teenage sleuth who must unmask a serial killer in San Francisco.” 29 EC: One of the last questions we usually ask is, how is your life different than your mother’s? BB: Oh, that’s an interesting question. Um, I think my mother had to fight her way to what became a very satisfying career? Go against type. You know, my dad lost some money at one period of their lives and they decided they had to move, and she decided she was going to put the house in her name, and the bankers wouldn’t let her do it. Even though she was making the money, he had to co-sign. 34 EC: What?! BB: That’s the way it was. This was probably the early ‘70s. EC: In the ‘70s? Oh my gosh, I thought that was in the ‘40s! BB: No, no. So here I am. I get my own loans; whatever I do, I don’t have to fight. I worked for Evan’s Advertising—that was my first job. Oh my God. So, it’s all LDS men and women, and I didn’t have to get their coffee. I was a research assistant. So I wrote the research reports for my boss. He didn’t do anything. I researched and wrote them. And if they need anything, you’re the little errand girl and they kind of ogle ya, It was just disgusting. EC: Here in town? BB: Yes, Evan’s Advertising. They’re still I think here. And so I decided then that I would have to be my own boss. That I couldn’t work in Salt Lake probably at any firm happily. I had to start my own business. So I’ve always since that time been determined that I wouldn’t work for anybody else. EC: You and your mother were independent women. I love it. BB: We are. 34 At that time women could generally not buy homes or even open bank accounts in their own name; they rarely had jobs other than as teachers, nurses, or secretaries, and most middle-class women quit their employment at the time of marriage. They rarely participated in vigorous sports nor challenged men in intellectual endeavors. The women’s movement, which began with the publication of Betty Freidan’s The Feminine Mystique in 1963, sought to change these restrictive social norms. It questioned assumptions about family, social, and economic life and was controversial from the outset. 30 EC: I’m so sorry. I got so caught up in the bookstore, I forgot to ask—you were a young person when civil rights was happening. Did that register on your life? BB: Absolutely. I was at Oberlin. Oberlin was one of those places where they turned over police cars. We were right in the thick of it! EC: Were you involved in that? BB: I wasn’t in the SDS [Students for a Democratic Society] 35 or anything organized, but yes, I was certainly on that side of things and I marched and did all of that. But my [second] husband, who went to Colgate, 36 was more involved. (He’s just a year younger but he was two years behind me in school.) Two years later, that whole movement had reached its apex, so he marched on Washington. 37 By then I had a baby 38, you know! But I can remember taking Mandy out into the front yard up in Kaysville, dragging the TV out so I could see the Watergate hearings. 39 She 35 Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) was an American student organization that flourished in the mid-to-late 1960s and was known for its activism against the Vietnam War. SDS organized a national march on Washington, D.C., in April 1965, and, from about that period, SDS grew increasingly militant, especially about issues relating to the war, such as the drafting of students. Tactics included the occupation of university and college administration buildings on campuses across the country. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Students-for-aDemocratic-Society (accessed 10 February 2020) 36 Colgate University is a private liberal arts college in Hamilton, New York. Founded in 1819, Colgate enrolls nearly 3,000 students in 56[8] undergraduate majors that culminate in a Bachelor of Arts degree; it also enrolls a dozen students in a Master of Arts in Teaching program. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgate_University (accessed 8 February 2020) 37 The civil rights movement of the 1960s promoted boycotts, sit-ins, Freedom Rides, marches, and similar mass action tactics that relied on nonviolent resistance and civil disobedience. This mass action approach typified the movement from 1960 to 1968. Civil rights marches and protesters of the 1960s regularly stormed the U.S. Capitol. Racial discrimination also plagued the D. C. area, and the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., on April 4, 1968 sparked race riots in Washington, D. C. as well as Chicago and Baltimore. 38 Amanda was born in 1972. 39 Watergate was a major political scandal that occurred, following a break-in at the Democratic National Committee (DNC) headquarters at the Watergate office complex in Washington, D.C., in 1972 and President Richard Nixon's administration's attempted cover-up of its involvement resulting in impeachment proceedings and Nixon’s resignation from office in August 1974. The Senate Watergate Committee, known officially as the Select Committee on Presidential 31 was in her playpen and I was playing with her and I was watching the Watergate hearings [in 1973] and was just glued to them. Talk about déjà vu all over again. 40 EC: And what about when it was Equal Rights for women. If you were already feeling divided from the Mormon culture anyway, was that a tough time to be in Utah? BB: Here’s the reality: it’s hard when the legislature is in session. In Salt Lake City, it’s less than fifty percent Mormon now, the government is. You know, Mandy still couldn’t play at the neighbors. There was still that kind of stuff going on, but by and large, Salt Lake isn’t that hard of a place to live. At that time, I loved to ski, I loved the mountains, I really love this place. You ground yourself in a place; I think you bond with a place. There’s a kind of landscape that I think we all feel is just home. EC: Right. It’s just in your bones. BB: Yes, and I think the mountains are home for me. We had that cabin in the Snowy Range. My parents are from there; we used to go there when I was a child. I used to ski so I was up in the mountains all the time. This is just home. That’s ultimately part of the reason I stayed was that. I just love it here. I love it here. So, the battle, yeah, we did, but because I owned my own business I didn’t have to battle as hard as anybody else. You know? When you own your own business you pick your friends, you pick your colleagues, you just don’t feel it. You’re not part of that. EC: True. BB: Yeah, one time I tried to join the Chamber [of Commerce]. This was when we were high visibility and Local First was high profile and it was kind of my baby, and so the Chamber was wooing me. I tried going to a meeting—and it was those patriarchal men! One meeting and I thought, I’m not doing this. This is not the part of Utah I want to be part of. I just don’t. Campaign Activities, conducted hearings and television news outlets brought the drama of the hearings to the living rooms of millions of American households, broadcasting the proceedings live for two weeks in May 1973. 40 Referring to the investigation into President Trump’s effort to gather information to smear Joe Biden, a potential Democratic rival in the 2020 election campaigns. 32 EC: This is not my scene. BB: No, it wasn’t. EC: Now I’m just curious, are your kids readers? Or were they like “Mom, we don’t want to read!” Because it was such a huge part of your life? Books around all the time. BB: With Mandy I was a single parent for nine years, and I would every night dutifully read her two or three books, and then she’d want another one and another one. But she didn’t grow up a reader, and yes, I think it was because the books were competition. She wanted my attention. I really think that. Another part of it was she was a little ADD and that just isn’t her, sitting still just isn’t her. Oddly enough, she was kind of a troubled teenager, and so now she’s a probation officer working with teenagers. She’s dynamite! You can’t even imagine how good she is at that! She knows about boundaries. And then Nicks is profoundly brain damaged. EC: So it’s hard for him to read. BB: No. He can’t read. He works some at the Food Bank and they pack and label boxes and he can learn like a one-word label and write it but he’s kind of impaired fine motor wise. But he goes up to the JCC [Jewish Community Center] and works out every day, and everybody in the city knows him because he’s very vivacious. When he’s not having a seizure or a bad headache, he is just amazing. Another interesting thing that’s part of my life was an incident that took place when he was with his caregiver in Sugarhouse Park and they went in to use the bathroom. His cousin Joey was there too because they’re in the group home together. But anyway, so Joey was going to the bathroom with his pants down, and Nicks and Robert were sitting. So there were three stalls, and they were all peeing, and this cop comes in and goes into a closed stall, comes back out and then outside. This cop is a supervisor and there are cops all over because they’re doing a training at the park. When they come outside, he says, “I know what you guys are doing in there.” And Robert said, “You’ve got this all wrong! These are special needs kids.” The cop said, “Don’t say another word or I’ll put the three of you in handcuffs!” He was yelling at them. And Nick was just horrified. He loves cops! And they were both frightened. 33 I had an event that night and when I came home from the event, Kit was writing a lawsuit. I mean he is a hardcore litigator and he was—well, you can imagine how mad he was! And I said, “Give me a minute,” and I called Ralph. (By this time in my career I knew Mayor Becker quite well.) I was going to Seattle to a book event the next day, and Ralph said, “By the time you get off the plane, I’ll have the Chief of Police call you.” That was Chris Burbank. So, then we had some negotiations. We said, “This can’t happen again ever. You need training for your police.” And the conversation evolved from instead of “We are going to sue you!” to “We are going to have a training.” Burbank thought, So we’ll give them a couple grand to do whatever. Well, in the meantime, we had through friends found this filmmaker Jenny [Ginny?] and also Temple Grandin 41. So we did a training film! We faced-off with them, we got twenty some grand out of them, we did this great training film, and they used it subsequently to train most of the police in the valley. EC: That’s wonderful. BB: I should give you a copy of it. It’s amazing. EC: We’d love to have it for the archive. BB: It’s called Invisible Disabilities. It’s so great. It’s only a twenty-minute film, but then we also did a really good training using people from the invisible disability spectrum: so we had epilepsy and other people on the spectrum but particularly epilepsy, autism, and traumatic brain injury are the three that we really addressed. The training gives you symptoms, so that a cop will look, just take a minute to look. Just for a second you pause and say, “Whoa that’s . . . oh, I get what that is. That isn’t him threatening because he isn’t answering me.. It’s because he can’t. It takes him too long to process.” 41 Temple Grandin is a professor of animal science at Colorado State University, consultant to the livestock industry on animal behavior, and autism spokesperson. She is one of the first individuals on the autism spectrum to document the insights she gained from her personal experience of autism. She has co-authored several books, including Animals in Translation: Using the Mysteries of Autism to Decode Animal Behavior (Harvest Book, 2006) by Temple Grandin and Catherine Johnson and Thinking in Pictures: My Life with Autism (2006); see also the DVD Temple Grandin by Mick Jackson, HBO Studios. 34 So we had the training thing. Well then, of course, after our mighty mayor came. [Jackie Biskupski] Well, even before. It was after the police switched. After Chris [Burbank] was shoved out of office 42, the new chief really didn’t want the film because Chris is in it. I like him, he’s a nice guy, but they’re not using it much, and of course after what’s her name came… EC: Jackie? BB: Uh-huh, Jackie came. She cut off the funding for Local First too. She gave it all to the Main Street Initiative because that’s the person they brought in for economic advisor. And the Main Street Initiative is years old and a moribund, stupid initiative. EC: And it’s failed so many times. BB: And here we are in Salt Lake with all these thriving neighborhood business districts and that’s what they are doing with their money? She’s not a visionary. We’ll just say that about her! EC: That’s too bad. BB: Yeah, but anyway, about that film and the aftermath: we gave it to two or three other cities, and even if it didn’t live on as much as I hoped it would, I think it set a tone that this sort of thing needs to happen. EC: It’s cool that you took something negative and turned it into something helpful. BB: Yes, so I’ve had these three strands in my life. I’ve been very active in the special needs community ever since I’ve had Nicks in the schools and in the school system. Kit and I were a great team because he’d threaten to sue them and that’s the only thing that registered with the schools, that’s the only thing that they would respond to. 42 “Chris Burbank, the police chief of Salt Lake City, Utah, resigned Thursday after he came under intense pressure over the handling of a sexual harassment claim involving a deputy police chief. . .. Burbank said that he had placed [deputy chief Rick] Findlay on an administrative leave in November 2013 when he heard about the allegations, while internal investigations into the claim continued. He added that he did not demote Findlay because he wanted him removed from service. Findlay later resigned in June 2014. ‘This decision is not in the best interest of the public, it's election politics and it's extremely unfortunate,’ Burbank said, according to the Salt Lake Tribune.” article posted on website International Business Times 6/12/15. https://www.ibtimes.com/salt-lake-city-police-chief-chris-burbank-resigns-over-sexualharassment-claim-row-1963939 (accessed 9 February 2020) 35 EC: That’s terrible. And did Nick go to public school? BB: Yes. And he had a wonderful teacher at West High his first two years, and then she got pregnant and left. So this was a classroom of almost thirty-two kids, I think, across all disabilities from ages sixteen to twenty-two because that’s how long they stay in the system. They had one teacher and one aide, and so we went in there and threatened to sue and got another aide, which we claimed was for Nicks but it was just to put another aide in the class. They couldn’t do more. It was just ridiculous. It was pathetic. So anyway, that has been a strand of my life along the way. Starting this group home and advocating for kids with disabilities. Another one has been the Local First movement, which I have been active in forever. And then the third strand is the book industry. EC: Do you ever just sit on the couch and just stare at the wall? You don’t have time to do that! BB: No, I’m kind of hyper. (laughter) If I sit on the couch, I’m reading. Reading is a huge part of my life, and it’s been a huge part of my ability to stay sane all of these years. Always, always. EC: I’m the same way: I’m a big reader. BB: And you know, if you’re really unhappy, that’s something you can find escape in. But every year there’s more. I mean this year alone, books that aren’t even out yet! Look at this: this is by Pam Houston who wrote Cowboys Are My Weakness. 43 It’s here because I just did an interview with her. It’s a good book. She kind of needed to—and she has grown up. This memoir [Deep Creek: Finding Hope in the High Country] is about buying this land in Colorado and being anchored into the land and how it’s saved her and made her grow up, and then the teaching that she does and how important that is for her. It’s just a blissfully good memoir. 43 Pam Houston (born 1962 in Trenton, New Jersey) is an author of short stories, novels and essays. She is best known for her first book of short stories, Cowboys Are My Weakness (1992), which has been translated into nine languages, and which won the 1993 Western States Book Award. “In Pam Houston’s best-selling story collection, we meet smart women who are looking for the love of a good man, and men who are wild and hard to pin down. Our heroines are part daredevil, part philosopher, all acute observers of the nuances of modern romance.” She did graduate studies in creative writing at University of Utah. 36 There’s a book called The Far Field [by Madhuri Vijay] that’s just out. It’s set in Bangalore and Kashmir and you meet the narrator when she’s eight. She’s in a house with her mom and this kind of strange guy comes to the door, and they have these times where they just sit on the couch and talk, and it’s mysterious, you know? And then she grows up and the story takes her through this trip to Kashmir but it’s tied to that earlier time, and it’s just so good and so brilliantly written, and in the end it’s one of those novels you know is somewhat tough but compassionate. There’s just so many good books! EC: I know. Sometimes it almost freaks me out that there’s just so many, and you’re a person that gets those advance readers. I can’t imagine! BB: Yes. Well so many of them aren’t good. But I read All the Light We Cannot See 44 in manuscript ten years ago. I just started it one night. An editor sent it to me, and I stayed up all night reading it, Afterwards I just went on a campaign to make that book work--not just here but I called all my bookseller friends. When you fall totally in love with a book, it’s so much fun. EC: That’s so true and how nice that you can help it along its way. Thank you so much for talking to me. BB: You’re welcome. And if you want more about me, read The King’s English. It’s actually kind of a fun book to read, and it has the whole story. EC: I’ll have to get one and put it in the archive. APPENDIX Betsy Burton, King's English, The: Adventures of an Independent Bookseller (Gibbs Smith, 2005) Betsy Burton, owner of The King's English bookstore in Salt Lake City, has been a bookseller for nearly thirty years, and a passionate book lover all her life. Her modestly 44 All the Light We Cannot See (2014) by American author Anthony Doerr won the 2015 Pulitzer Prize for Fiction. Set in occupied France during World War II, the novel centers on a blind French girl and a German boy whose paths eventually cross. 37 sized, yet widely respected, shop has hosted authors such as E. L. Doctorow, Isabel Allende, John Updike, Margaret Atwood, and Sue Grafton, and she has built a reputation as a passionate purveyor of the written word in a world where stores like her's are a dying breed. Burton now shares her story, including the amusing trials and triumphs of author visits, attempts at censorship, the modern business of bookselling, and the complexities of staying afloat as an independent in the world of chains and superstores. Burton also offers dozens of "Top 25" reading lists on a multitude of topics, from psychology to poetry, fiction, business, and the best banned books. Burton has also painstakingly collected favorite reading lists from the best independent bookstores throughout the country, including the Tattered Cover in Denver and Powell's Books in Portland, sharing what some of the best-read folks in the country currently can't put down. Filled with wit, passion, and a strikingly independent message, Burton's story will delight booklovers of all kinds. Betsy Burton is the owner of The King's English Bookstore, founded in 1977 in Salt Lake City. An avid reader and lover of literature, she is passionate about keeping independent bookstores alive and well in the world. She was named bookseller of the year in 2001 by Mountains and Plains Booksellers Association, has done countless book reviews for radio, television, and print media, and writes for and edits The Inkslinger, a literary newsletter. [From the Inside Flap] Betsy Burton opened The King's English Bookstore in 1977 with then-partner Ann Berman. When Berman left in 1981, Burton ran the store alone (with the help of many excellent booksellers) until 1987 when Barbara Hoagland became a partner. In operation for twenty-seven years, The King's English is well-known and respected in the local community as well as the community of independent bookstores nationwide. Actively involved in the community, Betsy has served on various literacy, academic, and community boards. Her store helped found the poetry series that ultimately became "The Westminster Poetry Series," which brought many internationally known poets to Utah, and was a founding board member of "Booked: Books Behind Bars," a program to develop literacy in the city jail. As a parent of a child with multiple disabilities, she has also spent many years serving on boards dealing with disabilities. Betsy regularly writes Book Sense blurbs; does weekly radio reviews on Utah's local NPR station, KUER; and gives book talks and presentations for various professional and community groups. She is also the co-author and co-editor of the Inkslinger, a newsletter now nationally known in the book business. She presently serves on the American Booksellers Association Advisory Council and was awarded Bookseller of the Year by the Mountains and Plains Booksellers Association in 2001. The story of The King's English is, on its surface, the history of a small, independent bookstore. But it is much more than that. The story is interwoven with charming anecdotes of author visits, from the inspiring to the hilarious. Among the dozens of stories, the 38 author recounts her almost-disastrous dinner party given for Isabel Allende, the delightful visit of Sir John Mortimer, and the gossip-inducing reading by John Irving. She also offers insight into the complexities of customer relations and the trials of making it as an independent in the world of chains and superstores. And she talks frankly on subjects from the intrinsic value of poetry in society to the threat of censorship. A highlight of the book is the numerous recommended reading lists, on topics from mystery to self-help to poetry, from fiction to westerns to business to children's. The book also includes recommended reading lists from other well-loved independent bookstores across the country. Filled with wit, passion, a lively voice, and strong opinions, The King's English: Adventures of a Passionate Bookseller is the ultimate book lover's book and a refreshing tale of standing up for what you believe in. [From Booklist] In 1977 Burton opened a bookstore called the King's English in Salt Lake City. This is a vivacious and spirited account of the ensuing years, and it encompasses a few tragicomedies, life with partners, author appearances, and the joy of reading. Burton really does love to read, and her book is chock-full of lists, not only of authors and titles but idiosyncratic lists like "25 Thrillers with Moral Heft" or "25 Books on Reading Books." She is preternaturally articulate and enthusiastic, whether she is recounting the pleasures of hosting Isabel Allende or Tony Hillerman, Mark Strand or Sir John Mortimer. The hilarious and terrifying incident of what happened when the fifth Harry Potter novel didn't arrive on time is worth the price of admission. She is also keenly aware of what has an impact on independent booksellers, from local needs to the Patriot Act. Along the way, we learn a small bit about being divorced and remarried, the life of a parent with a disabled child, and what to look for in a business partner. GraceAnne DeCandido, Copyright © American Library Association. All rights reserved Excerpt. © Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved. Among the Mormons On any map of Salt Lake City, it's hard to ignore the Mormon temple-not so much because Temple Square is the spiritual heart of a religious enclave as because the street system uses the temple itself as heart and hub: each address in the city-proper is plotted in terms of direction and distance from this one central point. Thus, The King's English Bookshop at 1500 East, 1500 South, is 15 blocks east and south of (you've got it) the Mormon temple. In a town where every address is derived from its proximity to their spiritual Mecca, Mormons are clearly not a force one can ignore. We Salt Lakers seem to define ourselves vis-à-vis the LDS (Latter-day Saint) church just as surely as we define our street numbers vis-à-vis the temple. The waxing and waning of our mutual hostility (Mormon and non-) makes for a complicated social and professional life, but an endlessly interesting one, full of the crosscurrents-animosity, scorn, 39 humor, respect, jealousy, distrust, grudging admiration-one might expect in what is essentially a petri dish for human comedy. Comic or not, the fact is that any bookseller who tries to bridge the chasm between the two cultures in Salt Lake must (in addition to the dog and pony show carried out by any retailer) be a skilled high-wire artist, master of the artfully changed subject and of spin-be, in fact, all things to all people. They also need a fairly schizophrenic inventory. Such high-wire acts are what good independent booksellers do best. Contortionists one and all, we delight in climbing into other peoples' skins or clothes or shoes in order to walk a mile or two along another's path, view the passing scenery through another's eyes. We learn this skill from the books we read. We also learn it by studying the shoes, dress, expressions (facial or verbal) of the people who walk into our stores. We chat with them, question them, listen carefully to their replies, intent on deciphering what they want. We're natural-born matchmakers, and the truth is that most of us would do anything to sell a book. But not just any book, and not just to make a buck. Not even because we believe in certain books, although assuredly we do. The real pleasure in bookselling comes in pairing the right book with the right person. That's what drives us as we look, listen, assess, ask questions, and then quick-flip through the file of recently read and distantly remembered titles that are logged in every bookseller's beleaguered brain. Until bingo! We come up with a match. 40