Oral history interview of Madison Huntsman, conducted by Kalli Huntsman (transcript)

Madison Huntsman discusses her experiences living away from extended family during the COVID-19 pandemic and parenting young children. Her family takes special precautions during the pandemic due to her son who has previous illnesses and Down Syndrome.

MADISON HUNTSMAN San Antonio, TX and Salt Lake City, UT An Interview by Kalli Huntsman October 15, 2020 University of Utah COVID-19 Oral History Project Salt Lake City, Utah HUNTSMAN, MADISON b. 1990 Madison Huntsman was born in Salt Lake City, Utah. Madison is married to McKade Huntsman, and currently lives in San Antonio, Texas. Madison lives away from all extended family during the pandemic of COVID-19. Madison is the mother of two children, Charlotte (Charlie, age 4) and Leonardo (Leo, age 3). Leo has Down Syndrome as well as being immunocompromised. In August 2019 Leo was in the PICU for one month with fluid in his lungs. Madison has been advised that if Leo were to test positive for COVID-19 his chances of survival are minimal. Because of the circumstances surrounding Leo and his health, Madison was chosen to perform the Oral History because of their unique circumstances. This Oral History shares how she, and her family, navigated through this difficult time with a child that has special needs, while additionally trying to provide a healthy environment for their other child. Key Words: COVID-19, Pandemic, Special Needs, Child, Immunocompromised, Parent, Mother MADISON HUNTSMAN 2 15 OCTOBER 2020 THIS IS AN INTERVIEW WITH MADISON HUNTSMAN, A MOTHER OF A CHILD WITH SPEICAL NEEDS AND IS ALSO IMMUNOCOMPROMISED. ON OCTOBER 15, 2020. THE. INTERVIEWER IS KALLI. HUNTSMAN. THIS IS THE UNIVERISTY OF UTAH MARRIOTT LIBRARY COVID-19 ORAL HISTORY PROJECT. KH [00:00:00] This is Kalli Huntsman, and today is Thursday, October 15th and I'm interviewing Madison Huntsman for the COVID-19 2020 oral history project. Go ahead introduce yourself and tell me a little bit more, Madison. MH [00:00:24] My name is Madison Huntsman, and like where I live and that kind of thing. We're in San Antonio Texas. My husband and two kids one is four, almost five, and the other is three, Charlie and Leo. Charlie just started school this past month, and Leo was born with Down Syndrome, so he started some new therapies this past couple months. So that's pretty much the big things happening in our lives. KH [00:01:06] So I'm just going to ask you some questions about COVID and your experience with it, and especially with all that you had to deal with specifically probably different from a lot of people. Do you remember like when you first kind of realized wow this is legit — this COVID 19. When did become having meaning to you? MH [00:01:29] So I, my personality is such that usually things like this I don't buy into very easily. Like I tend to think that people are overreacting to things. I remember going to the library with Charlie and Leo, which we do every week, and we walked in and there were usually there was a lot of kids there and there were probably like three or four kids. And then the librarians that know us and we kind of walked in there and I think it was around spring break time because I asked them, I said “is everyone gone for spring break this is kind of weird,” and the lady said No, it’s COVID and no one wants to come out.” and I remember thinking like that's kind of odd, that's a lot. There's a large number of people to be not coming into a library of all things you know. So I remember that. And then I remember Brit, my husband, coming home. And he came home from work and said “I don't think they're going to, I don't think I'm going to go back. I think they're going to keep us home for for “COVID.” And that was kind of when I was like oh OK so you know everyone's taking this a little more seriously than I assumed it would take on you know usually I think you know the media makes it a little scarier and everyone freaks out and then it dies down. But that didn't happen. So that was kind of the scary moment. KH [00:03:03] So I'm curious when at first you mentioned you were dismissive. After that when you kind of realized was it scary? Did you panic? Just frightened? Or just like level headed? MH [00:03:18] MADISON HUNTSMAN 3 15 OCTOBER 2020 I wasn’t freaking out at all initially even when Brit had to stay home from work and it was like becoming you know OK this is something to take seriously it wasn't scary until I don't know the day, I could look that up, but I wrote a piece, an article, or whatever about my son because I had read that the supplies, the ventilators were running low, that they were having to make decisions based on you know if it's an older person that's not going to live very long versus a young person that doesn't have any issues then they're they're going to choose them. And I from what I could research it hadn't gotten quite that scary. They were able to reallocate sources and take the ventilator from this hospital in this way. But the couple of parents who had kids with Down Syndrome who got COVID were saying that they had a couple of scares where a doctor would come say ‘you know, we're having trouble finding you know if if she stops breathing we don't know that we can be able to resuscitate her. We don't know if we have something to put in her.’ And because my son had been on a ventilator less than a year before. That saved his life, that was kind of like the big OK, Now I don't want to go outside kind of a thing that was the moment when it was more scary than just kind of Well this is kind of crazy type of thing. KH [00:05:01] So what did this article you wrote about, tell me a little bit more about it. MH [00:05:04] In a nutshell, I write for, I mean my own selfish persons it's a creative outlet but I write to advocate for, rights isn't really the right word, but for people to understand more about Down Syndrome disabilities in general and then more specifically Down Syndrome. Just because I was completely ignorant to it before I had my son. So this article was written just to kind of understand, make people understand that you know people who are sitting at home with four healthy kids and kind of a fun thing that dad was home from work and that they didn't have to go to school initially which I assume it maybe was for some people that for people like us It was it was scary. And you know even people who had elderly people who were more at risk and things like that. I felt like it took on a new, It took on a different form when you have a son who hasn't even started living his life that was in trouble. So the article basically just said that this is what it is from my perspective you know is that my son is viewed as disabled and viewed as not as essential to society as maybe your 3 year old son would be who would probably contribute more to society based on what we view as being a contribution versus being a drag down on society. If that makes sense. KH [00:06:41] Where can we find this article? MH [00:06:44] It's on it's on a site called theMighty.com It's a Compilation of people who have disabilities or anything from mental health to cognitive disabilities, intellectual disabilities, physical disabilities all that kind of stuff. It's kind of just a forum for people to write articles and people's different points of view kind of thing. But TheMighty.com is what it's called. KH [00:07:20] What's the name of the article? MADISON HUNTSMAN 4 15 OCTOBER 2020 MH [00:07:24] I actually don't remember what it was titled. I think something like why I'm afraid for my son during COVID I think something like that. KH [00:07:37] Have you written any more articles about this COVID and with your son since then? MH [00:07:44] COVID specifically, no. There's been a couple others on disability and and general empathy for the world and everything that was going on with COVID and Black lives matter and that kind of thing. But as far as being specific to COVID that was the only one. KH [00:08:08] You mentioned earlier that your husband came home and said ‘It looks like we're not going back to work.’ So I'm curious, tell me maybe walk me through your day before that and then walk me through your day after he stayed home. MH [00:08:24] I honestly I think you sent a little bit of an overview of the questions that we're going to be asked and I I did read that one and I think the actual question was Where were you when you heard COVID or when you felt like it was real. And I thought immediately I thought of I can remember where I was when I heard about 9/11. I remember the classroom I can remember what I was doing and how it came up and everything. I am having a harder time remembering the first time I heard you know or felt that first deep fear or unease that kind of just like little burned a little bit you know. So I can't remember specifically what our day was like or which day it was. But I know, I think that my son's therapy he has therapy, let's see six times a week now for just development things like physical therapy and speech therapy because he develops a little bit slower. And those were moved to telehealth before my husband was home. My kids were home and being cautious. And then we were kind of we had talked a little bit about like well is it okay for me to be going to work. I don't know let's call your dad and ask him what his opinion is and and then I think like a few days after that he came home and he said I think there I think we're not going back. I think that was the last day. And I think honestly it sounds probably terrible but it was kind of it was kind of a celebration a little bit mostly because my husband doesn't love his job right now at the moment though it was kind of good for him to be home. So it was fun initially I think like most things it's it's enjoyable at first and then it kind of drags on and took on a different tone. I guess. KH [00:10:32] You mentioned you called his dad, why? MH [00:10:36] His dad is a surgeon in Utah. He's very very knowledgeable about this kind of thing and more specifically he's he doesn't sugarcoat anything so if he doesn't think we should go outside he won't offer that opinion like out of the blue, call us and say be careful, but if we call and say hey what do you suggest we do. He would say if Leo gets it he'll die. Don't go outside or it's not a big deal you can go outside just be careful. So I kind of wanted that clear cut. Someone that I MADISON HUNTSMAN 5 15 OCTOBER 2020 respecteds opinion to say this is really scary you should be worried or this is not too scary. Just be careful like you normally would type of a thing. KH [00:11:19] And what did he say? MH [00:11:22] I think at that moment in time he said to be careful he didn't say specifics about Leo's health. He just said right now be cautious and I'm glad they sent you home from work and just you know lay low for a while and that kind of a thing. Eventually we did talk a little bit more in-depth and he said as well as my son's pediatrician that there is a very real possibility that he, because his lungs are weak from a previous illness, if he gets it that it will not be a good thing. I mean no one likes saying that he will most likely die or or anything like that but they they'd said you know avoid it at all costs because it will be worse for you than it will be for a typical kid who got it. KH [00:12:18] Do you work outside of the home? MH [00:12:22] I do photography as a side very part time, definitely full time mom is the is the main part of my life, but I probably had one or two photo shoots a month. So nothing crazy. But I did have to stop doing that for sure, and havent picked it up, since it’s still kind of, I can't it's it's hard to. I'm luckily I'm able to do that that I don't have to go back to work and rush back into it. It was extra income. But we have a hard time trusting people that they're also being careful as we are. So for me to go back to work and go into people's homes they are usually in a person's home. So there's a lot of you know it's contained it's inside. I'm not sure where their kids are going or whether they're in school that kind of thing. So I haven't picked that up yet since we stopped in February. KH [00:13:27] So you have two children and your husband's at work all day. Now he's home did that change things? Not really. How did you deal with that? MH [00:13:42] Definitely changed things. I have a very hands on husband so it wasn't too crazy of a shellshock. It was kind of just like a very long weekend. You know he doesn't usually just disappear all day or that kind of thing. So that wasn't too crazy. And like I said initially it was kind of fun. It was it was an adventure. You know something to talk about building memories with your kids that kind of thing. And then as time went on it started to get, I think with everyone, I hope with everyone, it started to get you know you're with the same person for you know every day in day out and we're not near family so we weren't seeing anyone that we felt comfortable seeing. So it was FaceTiming family and being with each other. And that was kind of it. And on the surface it sounds like having two pairs of hands to help raise your kids should be easier. But, I think just because you're not used to the schedule there's no schedule anymore. You know we had to figure out how to have a schedule and not just be chaos every day. So eventually we decided to, my husband writes as well, and he we would wake up in the morning and he would take three hours in the morning to write. And then he would come out as if he was coming back from work. So as MADISON HUNTSMAN 6 15 OCTOBER 2020 far as the kids were concerned dad was at work for for the first three hours of the day and then he would come out and that seemed to help us a lot. As you know kind of accepting the reality that this wasn't going to change anytime soon. So we needed to figure out and make it our new normal as opposed to making it a vacation kind of thing. And then later on he went back to work but they were doing one week on one week off. Which was the worst thing in the entire world. That's terrible no one should ever do that. With small kids it was they never knew whether dad was gonna be home this week or if he wasn't going to be home this week and when he was home if he had a lot of work he had to be in his office a lot and it was just it was stressful for the kids which made a stressful for me. I felt like, so. KH [00:16:09] I want to pop on two points you just made, you said like you know that's the norm. Things change what was normal. Do you see some of the new normal that’s going on continuing? Will you take any of those practices with you that you hope to continue after the pandemics over. MH [00:16:32] As far as scheduling wise, I did learn that we plan to have after he leaves the military in a couple months. We plan to have a similar situation that we were in kind of during COVID where he's home a lot and going to school. So as far as adapting what we've learned from that situation I definitely will make sure that we have a schedule right up front that it's not like let's meander a little bit and then figure it out. I think that COVID taught me that it's not worth you know enjoying the vacation for three weeks and then trying to go into a schedule it's easier just to establish what we're going to do and decide. So in that regard yes, definitely learned from there. I think as well as for us at least the new normal was, we learned a lot of relationship things I think being stuck with each other. I mean I'm not sure when the last time we spent three months not seeing anyone else you know and just us ever so it was it was hard but I think we were definitely better for it. And I don't know specifically maybe what we learned but I think it definitely helped us grow together even if we wanted to kill each other at times. KH [00:17:56] You mentioned you don't have a family there. So what did you guys do? You have to still run errands or get things. How did you? MH [00:18:08] We had our church helped initially in the beginning especially when things like toilet paper and cleaning supplies were yanked off the shelf. We we could not find toilet paper, at all. And we were on like the last two rolls I think and the next day I got a package from my mother in law that had just a thousand things of toilet paper and cereal and random things which helped and then our, a lady from my ward dropped off a big Sam's Club thing because her husband had waited in line when it opened and went and grabbed two of them. So we were definitely helped that way. And then eventually I think as far as groceries and stuff, I think we ordered and then we did do Costco. I can remember the first time I went to Costco during COVID and I had to wait in line and It took me four hours to get out of there and it was chaos. So we tried to avoid it. We tried to avoid doing that if we could and ordered groceries just that we could pick up. That seemed to be the safest option for how to do it. MADISON HUNTSMAN 7 15 OCTOBER 2020 KH [00:19:36] Walk me through the process after you you pick up your groceries or you know whatever. Getting back and preparing them. MH [00:19:45] So whoever was doing the shopping was doing all of the shopping. They were driving there they were getting the groceries they were coming home they were unloading it and then they were kind of cleaning up their steps and throwing their clothes in the dryer or in the washer and then getting in the shower. I so usually you know you come home and your husband hopes to unload the groceries or I help him unload the groceries and put them away. But instead either they would go outside with the other parent while I loaded the groceries or go in the, there's a back room where we would send them and then we would unload all the groceries. I'm not really. KH [00:20:23] They — you mean your kids? MH [00:20:24] Yes. Yes. Whoever didn't go to the grocery store whichever parent didn't go and then the two kids would go be distracted while we put away the groceries and then threw away things like the bags and things like that. I'm not really sure how effective we were in that because you're still buying food that other people have probably touched and whatnot but we did our best to be careful without You know not eating anything I guess. But definitely washing clothes showering and you know Lysoling doorknobs and things like that. So. KH [00:21:11] In addition to the change of schedule with work did you have other plans that changed during this time. MH [00:21:18] Yes. We were supposed to go on a trip to Europe. I was supposed to take my daughter and meet my mom in Europe and we held off on canceling not as long as we possibly could. And when the time arrived it was just there was no way we were going to make it work. We had that. We had just small things dance classes and recitals were canceled. Definitely, usually I would go out during the summer to see my family who's all in Utah. And we didn't do that either. And in addition were Thanksgiving and Christmas this year we're also not going just because of flying in an airplane seems like the worst kind of petri dish for anything that's still happening right now. So we're still a little bit uncomfortable with that. So definitely plans changed. And are still changing. I guess even though it's it's loosened up a little bit but I think the biggest one was taking my daughter to go travel which was kind of a bummer. Something that was kind of once in a lifetime I think. And we didn't get to go through with that. KH [00:22:38] How did she handle that? MH [00:22:41] MADISON HUNTSMAN 8 15 OCTOBER 2020 She's very resilient. Luckily for us she, having her, (i didn’t cry the whole time, and you have top talk about my kids) Having her brother who requires a lot more attention than a typical brother would. She has always been very understanding and been able to deal with disappointment and she, we didn't really tell her and eventually she asked I think she asked twice and said she wanted to go see the queen. She thought she was going to see the queen. So she asked when she was going to get go to see the queen and we explained that she couldn't go because of the Coronavirus and you know she actually her response to that was that she was going to go invent something that would cure the coronavirus so that she could go. So she did and she had fun with that for a while and played scientist and but it was it wasn't a sad thing she did it very well. I don't know truly how it affected her because she does, even though her personality doesn't seem to be quiet, she is rather quiet things like as I was when I was a kid I didn't really want to burden my parents with telling them how disappointed I was in something so I didn't. So I worry that it affects her more than she let on. But as far as any how I could expect any four year old to handle it she did it with grace and it was wonderful for us. So. KH [00:24:18] How do you balance that telling her what's going on without frightening her? And helping her understand all that that happened? MH [00:24:29] I'm a bad example for this of parenting. I feel like I was not always told truths as a kid not that I was lied to but it was always brushed under the rug. We don't talk about problems we don’t, you know we don’t, you can't say the word sex in our house. You know, its once I got married and saw my husband's parents doing it differently, that's kind of how I decided I wanted to do it, and so when she asked a question she pretty much gets the full answer. So to her really which I contemplate a lot whether it was the right decision, to her we cannot go outside because it's dangerous for, that we could get corona virus and the coronavirus would make her sick but if her little brother got it it would make him really sick. So she had to be careful for herself but she also had to be careful because we had a special circumstance as well. And she's a very tender heart. So she takes that seriously, but she also didn't understand why if everyone's wearing their mask why we can't still go outside which that was a whole other topic of conversation and etiquette and stupid people that don't wear masks but she also did well. KH [00:25:57] Now, Charlie is 4 has she, did she start school? MH [00:26:05] So, she started school virtually in August, and then she just started in person like two weeks ago. She's in pre-K so it's just for three hours a day. And that was a very hard decision to send her to school. Only about 50 percent of her class decided to go in person. They gave you the choice whether you wanted to go in person or virtual. And we chose to do in-person. Because she's a very social person and she's been deprived of any sort of social interaction besides her very boring parents for six months now almost. And she she needs it to thrive. She does not need the education part of it, she's smarter than both of our parents already. But she needs to interact with other kids, and I didn't want to have to tell her again you can't go do what I know you want to do because of your little brother. So if it was something that was going to if there was an end in MADISON HUNTSMAN 9 15 OCTOBER 2020 sight and I could say in a year you can go for sure, then we would have kept her back but because we're really not sure what's going to happen or how long this is going to be around we decided to go ahead with that and take the risk for that as well. KH [00:27:33] You mentioned you know not knowing what's going on. I'm curious how do you feel about how the knowledge has come or how the Government's handled it? Do you think you know where do you think it is coming from or how do you feel about how it's been done? MH [00:27:52] I think honestly, I think I have a lot of sympathy for the government and for the authorities on this because I think people put a lot of, pressure is the wrong word, but people expect that Scientists and because of the scientists, the government should have every single answer on this brand new disease that just popped up, and you know it's like well you know how to make a vaccine for the flu and you know what the flu looks like, so why don't you know what this looks like. Why you know is it a flu is it a cold. Why. Why can't you tell me. And I just assume that it seems it seems insane to me to think that they would know all of the answers when they just found out what it was. You know however long ago. I don't love how the president handled it. I think it was handled a little too cavalierly honestly especially for someone who has a kid that's at risk with it. But I honestly I don't have a way to to have done better. I guess I did the best that I could gathering knowledge, and like I said I had resources my father in law and that kind of a thing. But I think the best that anyone can do, even people I don't agree with, is to look at the facts and try to make their own assessment on what to do as long as it's not hurting other people. And I think they it was a crazy situation and I think most people did the best that they could with some exceptions for sure. But I'm not holding any anger or resentment towards that. I don't think, I think it's it's an absolutely impossible situation to have handled flawlessly. So. KH [00:29:45] How do you feel about the local level or the state level how they handled it in Texas? MH [00:29:53] Surprisingly I didn't expect Texas to have handled it as well as they did and it seemed to be we are one of the states that are mandated to wear masks outside with I think with the exception of exercise. And our schools, Charlie we pull up and everyone stays in the car including Charlie and I roll down the window and they take her temperature and then if her temperature is clear then they open the door and take her by the hand and take her inside of class. So it's very, I've been very impressed with that, especially with four and five year olds. I mean that's that's a really hard thing to do and I ask Charlie all the time if everyone keeps their mask on and she says yes. And I've been pretty pleased with that. Like I said my family's in Utah, and from what I've heard about there it's been much worse. And I've read a few news stories and things like that people are definitely not wanting to wear masks there, and fighting it a little bit more. And I think been a little bit more wishy washy about what whether they're going to mandate it or whether they're not or whether it needs to be in schools or not. So, I guess Texas did OK. The only other state that I know anything about or care about is Utah I think didn't do that Great I guess. But. KH [00:31:19] MADISON HUNTSMAN 10 15 OCTOBER 2020 Do you think the masks that are the mandate people are fighting it, is a political or personal. What do you think? What's your opinion on that? And do you think politics have had an effect you know in what ways? MH [00:31:36] I think there's a couple things. Initially I think human nature people don't like being told what to do, number one, and they're being told to do something that's physically uncomfortable, so naturally they just don't want to do it. And then the desire to not want to do it needs to be justified, so then they look at it and say well I don't even believe that it's really hurting people. I don't think it's really as bad as they're saying, so by not wearing the mask that I don't want to wear, i'm not actually hurting anyone because I don't think there's really any harm happening. So I think that's part of it. I don't think people were intentionally trying to harm other people. But I also don't quite understand. I don't quite understand why it's not viewed as courtesy even if you weren't 100 percent positive that the virus was as threatening as people were making it out to be. Why you wouldn't want other people to feel safe by wearing a mask when you left your home. I that I really don't understand because it's really not hurting you in any way. I know people argue the liberty thing and that kind of a thing. But, no one's coming to sew your mouth shut. They're just asking you to when you leave the home and you're around other people put on a mask. You know I can't I I don't understand because it's such a simple act. Why it's such a big deal. I guess so, I'm not sure I know. My husband has a couple of cousins that are constantly posting on Facebook about how you know their their rights are being taken away and this is not what America is about. And that kind of a thing and, I don't relate to that, and I I don't know, I do have a son who's at risk so maybe that that changed my view a lot. Maybe I would have been on the other side of things had I not had my eyes open to the fact that people are having a hard time with it. But I do think it's a little bit political, and then the other part of it I think people just like to argue too you know I, someone's telling you what to do when I don't want to do it and I'm going to find a reason to not do it. I think is part of it as well. KH [00:34:06] Yeah, well said. I want to kind of back up a little bit. You had mentioned you know, how you tried to have a schedule and things like that. Have there been things that have changed with the time you've had being home more; hobbies picked up or exercising or self care or have you feel like you're more neglected because you're 24 7 taking care of others now? MH [00:34:40] A little bit of both. As far as hobbies, like I said, I wasn't allowed to work anymore. And I also did births and you're not allowed to be in a hospital where someone's having birth, obviously they weren't even allowing husbands at one point in there so, that was cut off as well. So I had to find another outlet which is where the writing came in, I think, as well as I had my husband and friend encourage me to enter some photography contests and other sort of things like that. So those were the new hobbies and things that arose from that. As far as seld-care and that kind of thing or new habits I did start exercising more rigorously I guess. For a myriad of reasons. But I, it helps. You know I wasn't getting outside as much. You weren't I wasn't going to the store with kids you know taking two kids to the stores is a workout and I wasn't doing that. More and, that kind of a thing. It was also something again to do. It broke up the day to be able to wake up and exercise and then get on with your day kind of a thing. I also for my mental health I have to MADISON HUNTSMAN 11 15 OCTOBER 2020 exercise daily or I'm not a happy person. So that kind of stayed the same. I did start seeing a therapist during COVID. I'm not sure that the two were connected. It was something I should have done a long time ago but I think being in this stressful situation of COVID and being home with my husband and kids and not being around family and the isolation I think that kind of drove it to the point where I was like OK this is a time that I need to start doing this for you know for me and everyone around me, I think. So not directly COVID related but beause we were home and there were a lot of changes happening I think it definitely sparked that. And I guess the last one is learning, my husband and I needed to find a way to spend time together without, I'm very weird about baby sitters and I don't trust a lot of people with my kids, so two weeks before COVID got crazy we finally found a baby sitter that we loved. And she was good priced and she was nice to the kids and the kids liked her and we left her, we used her twice and then COVID happened. So we kind of felt like we got our groove with figuring out how to you know spend time with each other without kids and all that. And then COVID happened and it just kind of got derailed. So we had to find new ways to you know OK you know every other night we're gonna sit down and we're gonna spend time with each other. And then when we need our alone time in between that we'll just have our alone time in there. So that was kind of an adjustment as well I think picking that up. I think that's kind of all the changes that happened because of that. KH [00:38:19] Curious about you, do you have a friend network there that you haven't been able to interact with because of this? or how have you been able to stay in touch with those friends or maintain any kind of relationship? MH [00:38:33] I'm not a big social person so there weren't a whole lot of friendships to maintain. I did just have to tell my sister-in-law that she couldn't come visit which was hard. My sister in law who is, like I said I'm not a big social person so she's she's definitely one of my best friends and I had to tell her not to come, which luckily she was understanding. However, I was worried about how that would be received just because she's she's not as enthusiastic about being careful and wearing masks and things like that. So I was was nervous about that. I have a. KH [00:39:21] So how did you approach that or how did you what did you say? MH [00:39:27] Well I cowardly made my husband call initially and say that he was nervous that we wanted her to come but he was a little bit nervous because you know it, she needed to be careful before she came. Her daughter just started preschool and her daughter is autistic so she isn't quite at the point where you can say don't put your hands in your mouth. Don't you know don't touch other things don't like the walls type of thing. So he called and just reminded her of the severity of the issue. And then I called after and said I just reiterated it. And she eventually called and said I'm a little bit nervous about coming you know, are you guys how do you really feel about it. And I said I if you want to be careful and come then we're OK with it but if you're too nervous about it or you don't want to make the sacrifice to stay home for a couple of days before you come then we understand. So she was very nice and just said I I would never forgive myself if I hurt Leo. MADISON HUNTSMAN 12 15 OCTOBER 2020 So I think we're just going to stay for now. So cowardly is the answer to that. I didn't do it the best with. You asked about friendships I have two friends here really, and very low maintenance friends, one of which she also has a son who has Down Syndrome and is at risk as well. Luckily we did, she was one of the first people that we saw during COVID after we'd been quarantined for a while. They were also quarantining. So we felt ok to let them have a playdate every once in a while. But then her family started coming around and they weren't being careful. So we had to separate again as well. That's about it as far as friendships go. Everything else was FaceTiming family was about it. KH [00:41:42] I wanted to before I go I think more, is there anything that you know as you were thinking about this interview, that you wanted to say or answer or provide information on that I haven't hit yet that I haven't asked about? MH [00:42:06] I don't think so. I think you you asked most of the important stuff. I, my own curiosity would have been curious to interview someone who had kids my same age in the same situation but didn't have a child that they were really worried about. I would be very interested to see how different the perspective was, so hopefully I provided the perspective of what it felt like to have a kid that you were worried about, and to know if it was any different than than most of the people that were dealing with it. KH [00:42:49] That's why I asked you about you would have a different experience. MH [00:42:53] Yeah I mean I honestly I haven't talked to a lot of people about it besides family. I have one other friend, she lives in Bahrain. She doesn't have kids but it has been different for her as well. Just not being in the United States. But that's, those are really the only perspectives that I've had on it and other than you know social media twisting it where I see people who are either yelling about not wearing masks or yelling because they have to wear masks you know. That's kind of the only two perspectives that I see. So I yeah I'm curious as to what other people would recount as their experiences. KH [00:43:43] What do you think has been your biggest challenge with this whole Pandemic? MH [00:44:04] Besides the fear for my son and the constant questioning of what's being too careful and what's not being careful enough that's definitely the main one. And then other than that I would just say isolation. It's, I mean luckily we have face time I don't know how I would have done it without a phone to be able to call people that you know and talk to. But it's like I said with my sister in law not coming, we've had very few family members be able to come out since all of it. And it's there is a difference between talking to someone over the phone and talking to someone face to face. It's a different experience and it's I didn't realize how necessary that was in my life, especially since I'm not a very social person, I don't usually seek that out. Usually people force me to do it MADISON HUNTSMAN 13 15 OCTOBER 2020 and it's probably good for me but I'm now learning that it really is good for me and I it's hard to go without for sure. So as far as other than the obvious and worrying about whether I'm doing enough to keep my kids safe it would be being isolated probably. KH [00:45:22] Speaking of keeping your kids safe how soon if they come out and say we have this vaccination tomorrow, how soon do you think you would reintroduce your kids, how long would you wait? Do you have confidence in it? What do you think about that? MH [00:45:40] Any vaccine that came out I would hesitate to give to my kids for a long time. Just because my own caution, my own fear I guess of you know it hasn't been around very long you don't know what it what it does what it affects or anything like that. But I also wouldn't expect to be the person that says well I'll let everyone else get the vaccine and i'll go outside because everyone else will have it and I'll be OK because everyone else took it. I think the sooner they can get one great because eventually as years go by and they test it, I think it'll eventually be helpful obviously, but I it's very hard for me to envision any sort of end to this because me personally I wouldn't. And I would hope other people wouldn't trust it quite so soon either. I mean there's a lot of pressure on people to create something right now and that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the best or safest thing out there to do. So I mean in answer, a long time. Which is kind of daunting I guess. KH [00:46:57] Do you see an end in sight? MH [00:46:59] I mean yeah it's you know I guess you're just we're going to have to be careful for a while which is not necessarily a bad thing. I mean honestly we should probably be wearing masks most of the time anyway if you ever have you know if people wore masks whenever they had the flu or during flu season in general, then it would slow it down a lot. You know so, and we're just as careful, we're almost as careful during the hard RSV months anyway just because of my son because getting the flu can be hard on him as well. So I guess we were well equipped for it but I in answer I guess we just plan to be careful for a long time I guess. KH [00:47:51] You mentioned that you had a few family members that came and visited. What was the process that you needed them to go through so that you were comfortable having them come out or did you not? Did you not really want to wait and have a choice? MH [00:48:10] The process that I would be comfortable with them coming out, and the process in which I allowed them to come out is different. I allowed people that I trusted to A — be careful, who were courteous and careful in their daily lives. And then as well as trusted to say hey I started coughing yesterday, I’m not going to come. Or I got a runny nose this morning I'm not going to come just to be safe or be careful. So as long as I felt OK about that then I felt like it was was OK for them to come. And I mean same going forward. My sister in law like I said just not MADISON HUNTSMAN 14 15 OCTOBER 2020 careful, so we didn't feel comfortable allowing her to come without extra precautions which she didn't want to do at this time. But if other members I know other members of my family are being careful and cautious and if they express desire to come I think I think we would be OK with it. Especially that we don't see an end to this right now. So I don't want to keep my kids from their family forever. You know that doesn't seem fair to them and so I think that's where we've landed, is that if we can trust the person and feel like they've been cautious and understand the severity of the situation then we don't have a problem with them coming to see us. KH [00:49:35] Have you had any family members test positive for COVID? MH [00:49:41] My father in law tested positive for COVID. He said it was awful, one of the most terrible illnesses he's had, which was kind of that was closest it's been in our family that really had it, tested positive for it. I had an aunt who also tested positive, who was around several of my immediate family but they, none of them tested positive after that. I think that's been the only family members that have had it so far. KH [00:50:24] How did your kids take it when they heard? Well I guess Charlie, because you know you said it would make you sick would make Leo, did it worry them then or was she worried about how do you approach that? MH [00:50:39] She, there is some confusion because she, I'm really not sure what she thinks COVID is, whether she thinks it hurts people whether she thinks it's just a cold, or or what she thinks of it. But when she found out her grandpa had it she was very worried. She didn't seem to think that he was going to die it wasn't as scary like I'm going to lose it but she was very concerned for his wellbeing. And then a couple weeks ago my, someone my husband works with tested positive. So he had to quarantine. That one she was initially scared you could see it on her face just when I was explaining it to her. But as I kept talking and just said that then he's gonna get a test and we're going to see if he has it and if he doesn't have it he can come out and if he does have it he's just got to stay in there until he's done being sick. Once it was explained like that she seemed OK with it. I didn't have a problem. She did think that he was quarantining in our bedroom with the other guy that was also testing positive. So she thought that for a whole 24 hours until we figured that's what she was talking about. But she she handled it pretty well. She hasn't been as scared as I probably would have expected her to be. Probably how I would've been as a kid I was very scared of everything. So I probably would have been terrified but she seems to be more understanding of it. And taking it better I guess. KH [00:52:17] I'm assuming your husband tested negative. MH [00:52:19] Yes. MADISON HUNTSMAN 15 15 OCTOBER 2020 KH [00:52:21] Is that a concern every time he comes home from work? MH [00:52:29] If I'm being honest, I shove that down really far to survive. I know he's very careful. I also know that he is he's very helpful and not rude to people. So he's not going to say You need to back up or you know that kind of a thing. But I do know he's careful. He does come home immediately and walk straight to the laundry room and take off his uniform and throw it in and then go take a shower. And this is the first scare that we've had. I know we'll have another one, so we survived the first one and luckily because of being in the military and also having Leo, he gets tested quickly. Which is nice because otherwise he would be, we would be waiting on a test forever and you know. So, but yes it's a fear and I very unhealthily shove it down as far as I can on a daily basis. KH [00:53:36] Good for you. One last thing, and it's COVID related and a little bit that's going on with everything going on. Because you've been so quarantined, you know although there's been a lot of social unrest going on in the world with the racial inequalities and political. Have you been pretty insulated from that since you aren't really going out there or do you feel like you're even more because you're in and watching TV all the time or is it nothing different? You think it would be as big of a deal if we weren't in a pandemic? MH [00:54:15] I think it would. I think it would be as big of a deal. I think we, meaning my husband's well, I can't say this with a surety but I think my husband and I would have been a little bit more actively, maybe some of the protests. Things like that we would have been more involved in but weren't because we weren't going to risk going outside. I say I don't say that with assurity because I know as cowardly as it is I don't trust taking my children out to those of you know some of them. I wouldn't feel okay about that, and some of the more peaceful ones that were I would have been OK. But we probably would have been more active had do we not been during COVID. As far as how much I knew, or how much was coming through the house because of it. I think it was probably the same. I'm not a big, I don't enjoy watching the news. I get I pick, I try to find an unbiased news place that just gives me this is what's happening today and that's kind of a thing which is impossible to find but I try. So I think I would have been the same amount of information. Maybe it was talked about a little bit more among like family members because we didn't have as much to do. You know we weren't busy with work and things like that at the time so maybe that would that made it a little bit more prevalent in our lives. But, overall I think it was pretty similar to what it would have been given If things had been normal. KH [00:55:59] Anything else you can think of, that you want to share? MH [00:56:04] No nothing. KH [00:56:07] MADISON HUNTSMAN 16 15 OCTOBER 2020 Madison, thank you. MH [00:56:08] You're very welcome. KH [00:56:10] And I'm going to stop the recording that we can continue to talk. Hold on a sec. END OF INTERVIEW